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Jayrendo Karr
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2011.12.05 01:20:00 -
[1] - Quote
For the common missile user this is the chain of ships used.
Frigate---> Caracel ----> Drake-----(Insert an ungodly amount of training time here)----Raven or Tengu
Anything else and we really have to train hybrids from the gound up.
Can we fix this? |
Jayrendo Karr
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2011.12.05 01:21:00 -
[2] - Quote
Jayrendo Karr wrote:For the common missile user this is the chain of ships used.
Kestrel or Merlin---> Caracel ----> Drake-----(Insert an ungodly amount of training time here)----Raven or Tengu
Anything else and we really have to train hybrids from the gound up.
Can we fix this? Delete this I hit quote instead of edit. |
Aamrr
HnL Enterprise
170
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Posted - 2011.12.05 01:23:00 -
[3] - Quote
Sure. Just look at the cerberus, nighthawk, CNR, golem... |
Jayrendo Karr
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2011.12.05 01:23:00 -
[4] - Quote
Aamrr wrote:Sure. Just look at the cerberus, nighthawk, CNR, golem... You know those take an ungodly amount of time to train for properly right? |
Skinae
Hello Kitty Hug Patrol
13
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Posted - 2011.12.05 01:27:00 -
[5] - Quote
Wrong forum.
This belongs: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=topics&f=270 here. |
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
42
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Posted - 2011.12.05 01:41:00 -
[6] - Quote
Jayrendo Karr wrote:For the common missile user this is the chain of ships used.
Frigate---> Caracel ----> Drake-----(Insert an ungodly amount of training time here)----Raven or Tengu
Anything else and we really have to train hybrids from the gound up.
Can we fix this?
Oh please. It takes a fraction of the time to get into one of the best PVE ships in the game (tengu) as almost any other.
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DeepfriedTator
HotRock Mining PLC
0
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Posted - 2011.12.05 01:43:00 -
[7] - Quote
**** WARNING SARCASM FOLLOWS****
I know I feel your pain. You have to train up rockets/heavies/hams/ cruises/ torps as well in order from largest to smallest. Its not as easy as any of the rail platforms where we just get any ship at any size and fit the appropriate size gun you want.
I do agree the amount of training time to move up in ships for caldari is rediculous. I am surprised anyone flies them with the amount of time/isk that it takes to invest in them. I can only hope that in the next patch they WOW up the caldari race and maybe give them a planet to kill lvl 3 pigs over and over again to power lvl the caldari mission runners.
I hope I brought some ideas to the table for a helpful buff to the caldari resistanse. FIGHT THE POWER
your helpfull fried potatoe |
SpaceSquirrels
20
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Posted - 2011.12.05 01:46:00 -
[8] - Quote
You realize it takes far longer to get t2 large guns right?
Train all to V then train adv to IV for all then train some other gun skill to V (optimal etc) Then you need adv weapons upgrade to at least 4.
Now if your argument is you want more missile ships. Then sure whatever, but tengu to V is with HML t2's is way quicker than gun boats. |
Jayrendo Karr
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2011.12.05 01:48:00 -
[9] - Quote
SpaceSquirrels wrote:You realize it takes far longer to get t2 large guns right?
Train all to V then train adv to IV for all then train some other gun skill to V (optimal etc) Then you need adv weapons upgrade to at least 4.
Now if your argument is you want more missile ships. Then sure whatever, but tengu to V is with HML t2's is way quicker than gun boats. This is what i mean, I hate seeing a new ship and then oh it uses large rails which take forever to get into. They need to make some new missile boats. Once i reach a certain level i'm stuck with that ship until i reach the next level of ship. Why use a ferox when i have a drake already trained up and ready to tank? Why train for a rokh when my raven gets the job done? |
To mare
Advanced Technology
2
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Posted - 2011.12.05 02:52:00 -
[10] - Quote
Jayrendo Karr wrote:Aamrr wrote:Sure. Just look at the cerberus, nighthawk, CNR, golem... You know those take an ungodly amount of time to train for properly right?
like pretty much all the others Command HAC or BS of the other race? yes they do |
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Goose99
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
268
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Posted - 2011.12.05 03:04:00 -
[11] - Quote
Aamrr wrote:Sure. Just look at the cerberus, nighthawk, CNR, golem...
Confirming that they produce hilarious kms. |
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War DarkSide.
49
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Posted - 2011.12.05 03:25:00 -
[12] - Quote
Goose99 wrote:Aamrr wrote:Sure. Just look at the cerberus, nighthawk, CNR, golem... Confirming that they produce hilarious kms. Yeah. Once I produced a Nightmare killmail with my Golem. Got like 1 bil in loot. 2008, CCP Zulu(park): "command ships are fine as is" 2011, CCP Greyscale: "is the Nighthawk actually underpowered?" Nice progress, guys. |
Misanthra
Alternative Enterprises
2
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Posted - 2011.12.05 05:20:00 -
[13] - Quote
Jayrendo Karrr wrote:Once i reach a certain level i'm stuck with that ship until i reach the next level of ship.
welcome to eve. every race has this. Its called progession. ride ship a to get ship b. ship b grind to ship c.
Amarr spams harb till they go t2/t3/bs.
Canes of the winmatar lead to sleips, loki, varg and pests.
gallente do the same.
BC's are now the only ship class gun boats outnumber missile boats for caldari. When those other gun boats are the lolrox and vulture....this not even an imbalance. Naga is actually an apology to caladari who trained guns imo. Beyond bc's...dude, way more missile options than gun ones.
May not like those options or effort involved, but they are there. Every other race has their ugly duckling ship per class that sits unloved, this is not a caldari exclusive feature.
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Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Against ALL Authorities
52
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Posted - 2011.12.05 05:26:00 -
[14] - Quote
Jayrendo Karr wrote:Aamrr wrote:Sure. Just look at the cerberus, nighthawk, CNR, golem... You know those take an ungodly amount of time to train for properly right?
You know they are are fast as **** if you have ever trained a primary weapon system.
....and lol ungodly, take three weeks to do cruiser V for a Tengu. |
Alexander Wellspring
State War Academy Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2011.12.05 08:12:00 -
[15] - Quote
I dont have much experience in this game, but sure i've played a lot of games in my life, and i can say a think about what i've played, about the caldary stuff, which i dont really like, i'm a bit off topic but i take the opportunity of a semi related 3d. For me the whole missile ammo and launcher skillset has no point in how it works, the skill should be related in the engine of the missile type, not for their name, cause a light and heavy missile are the stupdi same missile in different size why the hell i should learn different skillset when they do the same thing?
A more sirius base skillset will be like this more of less:
-Guided missile skill: enable t1 light, heavy, cruise size missile, their t1 launcher and improve damage lvl on every guided missile
-Assault missile skill: enable t1 rocket, heavy, cruise size missile, their t1 launcher and improve damage lvl on every assault missile
-F.o.F. missile skill: enable fof ammo and damage on it
-defender missile skill: enable defender and improve their velocity on it
and the advanced stuff
-advance guided missile skill: enable guided missile t2 launcher and improve rate of fire lvl on it
-Fury guided missile skill: enable fury ammo and improve damage lvl on it
-Precision guided missile skill: enable precision ammo and decrese sig radius lvl on it
-advance assault missile skill: enable unguided missile t2 launcher and improve rate of fire lvl on it
-Rage assault missile skill: enable rage ammo and improve damage lvl on it
-javelin assault missile skill: enable javelin ammo and improve travel time lvl on it
super advanced stuff
-citadel guided missile skill: capital cruiser launcher and ammo
-citadel assault missile skill: capital torpedo launcher and ammo
The amount of skill point and skill required to train other skill will be different from now, but -All have more sense -No more tons of useless skill -Less complex -More efficent -No sp waste -and dev will probably have an easy mode to balance it about the skill point and about subpar or overpower type of missile engine i think -Noob frendly (cause actually is a good for so many point of view, even if some people sure can think different)
Big change for big improve, hard to say if could be done easly, but i cant even think why the dev didnt developed the missile skill set directly in this way. |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Against ALL Authorities
52
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Posted - 2011.12.05 08:23:00 -
[16] - Quote
Alexander Wellspring wrote:I dont have much experience in this game, but sure i've played a lot of games in my life, and i can say a think about what i've played, about the caldary stuff, which i dont really like, i'm a bit off topic but i take the opportunity of a semi related 3d. For me the whole missile ammo and launcher skillset has no point in how it works, the skill should be related in the engine of the missile type, not for their name, cause a light and heavy missile are the stupdi same missile in different size why the hell i should learn different skillset when they do the same thing?
A more sirius base skillset will be like this more of less:
-Guided missile skill: enable t1 light, heavy, cruise size missile, their t1 launcher and improve damage lvl on every guided missile
-Assault missile skill: enable t1 rocket, heavy, cruise size missile, their t1 launcher and improve damage lvl on every assault missile
-F.o.F. missile skill: enable fof ammo and damage on it
-defender missile skill: enable defender and improve their velocity on it
and the advanced stuff
-advance guided missile skill: enable guided missile t2 launcher and improve rate of fire lvl on it
-Fury guided missile skill: enable fury ammo and improve damage lvl on it
-Precision guided missile skill: enable precision ammo and decrese sig radius lvl on it
-advance assault missile skill: enable unguided missile t2 launcher and improve rate of fire lvl on it
-Rage assault missile skill: enable rage ammo and improve damage lvl on it
-javelin assault missile skill: enable javelin ammo and improve travel time lvl on it
super advanced stuff
-citadel guided missile skill: capital cruiser launcher and ammo
-citadel assault missile skill: capital torpedo launcher and ammo
The amount of skill point and skill required to train other skill will be different from now, but -All have more sense -No more tons of useless skill -Less complex -More efficent -No sp waste -and dev will probably have an easy mode to balance it about the skill point and about subpar or overpower type of missile engine i think -Noob frendly (cause actually is a good for so many point of view, even if some people sure can think different)
Big change for big improve, hard to say if could be done easly, but i cant even think why the dev didnt developed the missile skill set directly in this way.
The reason is that missiles were intended to be a secondary weapon system (like drones) thus you get 5-6 ships that have missle and /or split bonuses (like drones) and the rest of the TWO races are supposed to use hybrids.
Except hybrids suck.
Unlike EVERY turret you don't have the requirement to get spec IV of the lower rank to move all the way up larger launchers (I know citadels...cap weapons excluded) so if you want HML T2s you just train those and the spec for the missiles (if you much have T2 missiles) likewise torps.
This is counter to turrets where you need small hybrid V, spec IV med hybrid V spec IV large hybird V AND motion prediction V just to get the large blaster spec skillbook.
This is why I laugh about "long trains, when working from the ground up you are talking 6 weeks from scratch to large T2 variant ...which is agrivating, I don't use small or medium railguns....ever, yet I spent a couple weeks training them up, I have no need for small pulse lasers atm but I have them queued....
I want torps, I spend like 4 days on the prereqs I can mount the tops inside a week and a T2s in 15 days. |
Alexander Wellspring
State War Academy Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2011.12.05 08:43:00 -
[17] - Quote
Quote:This is why I laugh about "long trains, when working from the ground up you are talking 6 weeks from scratch to large T2 variant ...which is agrivating, I don't use small or medium railguns....ever, yet I spent a couple weeks training them up, I have no need for small pulse lasers atm but I have them queued.... you mean that in about 2 month you can use all t2 railgun size with high t2 ammo skill? Dosen't look like such a bad deal |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Against ALL Authorities
52
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Posted - 2011.12.05 08:54:00 -
[18] - Quote
Alexander Wellspring wrote:Quote:This is why I laugh about "long trains, when working from the ground up you are talking 6 weeks from scratch to large T2 variant ...which is agrivating, I don't use small or medium railguns....ever, yet I spent a couple weeks training them up, I have no need for small pulse lasers atm but I have them queued.... you mean that in about 2 month you can use all t2 railgun size with high t2 ammo skill? Dosen't look like such a bad deal edit: maybe i should just repost in the skill subforum :O
2 months with applicable support already skilled...and then you have to spend another 6 weeks if you want blasters to go with them.
Now repeat this for every race that you need to fly, unlike drones and missiles, where if you can mount them or carry them, you are good to go. |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Against ALL Authorities
52
|
Posted - 2011.12.05 08:58:00 -
[19] - Quote
Derath Ellecon wrote:Jayrendo Karr wrote:For the common missile user this is the chain of ships used.
Frigate---> Caracel ----> Drake-----(Insert an ungodly amount of training time here)----Raven or Tengu
Anything else and we really have to train hybrids from the gound up.
Can we fix this? Oh please. It takes a fraction of the time to get into one of the best PVE ships in the game (tengu) as almost any other.
Not to mention that a 6-7mil SP toon can easily solo level IVs with a Drake, you aren't finding many other races accomplishing that one. Sure a myrm can tank a level IV, but you better have some time on your hands because it takes forever to kill anything. |
Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
375
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Posted - 2011.12.05 09:02:00 -
[20] - Quote
I think OP has a poiint.
While lasers, hybrids and projectiles can be used on the vast majority of their respective faction's ships, this is not so for Caldari. For more "pure" missile boats you really have to train Khanid T2 ships. |
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Mike Whiite
Progressive State
4
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Posted - 2011.12.05 09:10:00 -
[21] - Quote
Onictus wrote: ....and lol ungodly, take three weeks to do cruiser V for a Tengu.
Just wondering which Tengu do you fly with only Cuiser V.
Because I need this list of minimum skills:
Caldari Strategic Cruiser I Caldari Cruiser V Spaceship Command III Caldari Frigate IV Caldari Defensive Systems I Shield Operation V Engineering I Mechanic III Caldari Electronic Systems I Electronics V Caldari Engineering Systems I Engineering V Caldari Offensive Systems I Missile Launcher Operation V Gunnery III Caldari Propulsion Systems I Navigation V
While you're on it you might be able to explain where you get about 500,000,000.00 ISK in three weeks to finance it.
I don't want to be deff to your arguments but lets keep them realistic.
Secondly I don't get this comparing Missiles with Drones, drones are used over many ships, together with a second weapon system, missile launchers are the primairy weapon on their ships (I know there are carriers though that is not realy a a thing you want to compaire this with) . |
Alexander Wellspring
State War Academy Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2011.12.05 09:25:00 -
[22] - Quote
actualy if you wonna do decent with the tengu, it need perfect cap skill too |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Against ALL Authorities
52
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Posted - 2011.12.05 09:45:00 -
[23] - Quote
Mike Whiite wrote:
Secondly I don't get this comparing Missiles with Drones, drones are used over many ships, together with a second weapon system, missile launchers are the primairy weapon on their ships (I know there are carriers though that is not realy a a thing you want to compaire this with) .
No true, almost all matar ships have can mount launchers Tyhoopn is bonused for Torps Huginn usually mounts HMLs, a number of Gallente ships as well on Lach/Arazu they are a primary weapon, hell even Abbadons and Megathrons can mount a launcher....it would be dumb but you can. Sacrilage is a missile ship, HAM Legion is arguably the best PvP fit for it.
You don't often see Matar with launchers in small gang because anywhere you can put a launcher you can also put a neut...and you can going to get more mileage out of the neut.
P.S. Those Tengu pre-reqs are basics that pretty much every pilot should be working on anyway, and with the exception of shield OP V and Cruiser V they are damn near all rank 1 and 2s that take a week or less to train up. |
Mike Whiite
Progressive State
4
|
Posted - 2011.12.05 11:06:00 -
[24] - Quote
Onictus wrote:Mike Whiite wrote:
Secondly I don't get this comparing Missiles with Drones, drones are used over many ships, together with a second weapon system, missile launchers are the primairy weapon on their ships (I know there are carriers though that is not realy a a thing you want to compaire this with) .
No true, almost all matar ships have can mount launchers Tyhoopn is bonused for Torps Huginn usually mounts HMLs, a number of Gallente ships as well on Lach/Arazu they are a primary weapon, hell even Abbadons and Megathrons can mount a launcher....it would be dumb but you can. Sacrilage is a missile ship, HAM Legion is arguably the best PvP fit for it. You don't often see Matar with launchers in small gang because anywhere you can put a launcher you can also put a neut...and you can going to get more mileage out of the neut. P.S. Those Tengu pre-reqs are basics that pretty much every pilot should be working on anyway, and with the exception of shield OP V and Cruiser V they are damn near all rank 1 and 2s that take a week or less to train up.
Okay I can follow that, but I was trying to tell that drones are a weapon you have on the side (big guns and drones) missiles are your main weapon, on your ship. you don't have big guns and zome missiles on the side, which in my humble opinion makes Missiles a primairy weapon system especialy to Caldari who have more missiles ships than hybrid ships and Navy Faction ships are missile ships.
I Agree that the hml don't need attention, though the large platforms would need some attention, the Ham's and Light should be open for debate.
P.S. I understand that those skills are usefull to have anyway, though that doesn't mean you need to train them, not to mention those minimums don't let you fit it in a way that would impress anyone.
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Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Against ALL Authorities
52
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Posted - 2011.12.05 11:14:00 -
[25] - Quote
Mike Whiite wrote:Onictus wrote:Mike Whiite wrote:
Secondly I don't get this comparing Missiles with Drones, drones are used over many ships, together with a second weapon system, missile launchers are the primairy weapon on their ships (I know there are carriers though that is not realy a a thing you want to compaire this with) .
No true, almost all matar ships have can mount launchers Tyhoopn is bonused for Torps Huginn usually mounts HMLs, a number of Gallente ships as well on Lach/Arazu they are a primary weapon, hell even Abbadons and Megathrons can mount a launcher....it would be dumb but you can. Sacrilage is a missile ship, HAM Legion is arguably the best PvP fit for it. You don't often see Matar with launchers in small gang because anywhere you can put a launcher you can also put a neut...and you can going to get more mileage out of the neut. P.S. Those Tengu pre-reqs are basics that pretty much every pilot should be working on anyway, and with the exception of shield OP V and Cruiser V they are damn near all rank 1 and 2s that take a week or less to train up. Okay I can follow that, but I was trying to tell that drones are a weapon you have on the side (big guns and drones) missiles are your main weapon, on your ship. you don't have big guns and zome missiles on the side, which in my humble opinion makes Missiles a primairy weapon system especialy to Caldari who have more missiles ships than hybrid ships and Navy Faction ships are missile ships. I Agree that the hml don't need attention, though the large platforms would need some attention, the Ham's and Light should be open for debate. P.S. I understand that those skills are usefull to have anyway, though that doesn't mean you need to train them, not to mention those minimums don't let you fit it in a way that would impress anyone.
Typhoon can fit 5 launchers and 3 turrets (or vice versa) likewise Tempest has 4 launcher slots if the pilot desires (which I can't imagine), likewise Cyclone has 5 launcher points, Huggin 3 or 4 Vagabond 2, Munin3 Lachesis 3 or 4 Rapier three.
Yes, you very much can go guns and missiles, most don't because BS missile suck, and there are other mods that are generally better in that slot.
Likewise Gallente have a a number of ships that Drones are the primary weapons and guns are just cake Ishkur Ishtar Vexor Dominix Sin Myrm.....Myrmidon doesn't have a turret bonus at all......that is how they relate.
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Spookyjay
Animosity.
0
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Posted - 2011.12.05 12:39:00 -
[26] - Quote
So the argument here is What?
Caldari have a problem with types of ships? Caldari have to few missile boats? Caldari what?
Nope afraid i do not see it. They have more main weapon ships than other races imo. Complaints from caldari pilots who lack hybrid skills are funny.
Gal pilots Have to train Rails, Blasters and Drones. Minmatar Have to train Missiles, Project, ECM and some drones. armour and shield Amarr have to train Lasers, Armour, missiles and some drones. Caldari have to train Missiles, Rails and shield tank. and least drones of all races.
Get over it.
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Mike Whiite
Progressive State
4
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Posted - 2011.12.05 14:31:00 -
[27] - Quote
Spookyjay wrote:So the argument here is What?
Caldari have a problem with types of ships? Caldari have to few missile boats? Caldari what?
The argument is for CCP to take a good look at missiles and missile ships, because newer Caldari players tend to get stuck after a while and find out they need to start an entire new skill tree to learn the other weapon platforms, where as the other weapon platforms are in the same skill tree.
Not an uncommon complaint when you're scanning the board. So looking in to it might not be sucha bad thing.
and on your list:
Minmatar: have 3 missile ships within T1 Frigates and Cruisers including navy faction Anmar: Have 2 missle ships within T1 frigates and Cruisers including navy faction
Easy to ride without the need of training missiles
Caldari; have 7 missile ships within T1 frigates and Cruisers including navy faction 7 ships of the 13, that makes it split between missiles and hybrid, now look at the SP difference between that and the others |
Mike Whiite
Progressive State
4
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Posted - 2011.12.05 14:31:00 -
[28] - Quote
arggh double post |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
133
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Posted - 2011.12.05 14:59:00 -
[29] - Quote
Mike Whiite wrote:Spookyjay wrote:So the argument here is What?
Caldari have a problem with types of ships? Caldari have to few missile boats? Caldari what?
The argument is for CCP to take a good look at missiles and missile ships, because newer Caldari players tend to get stuck after a while and find out they need to start an entire new skill tree to learn the other weapon platforms, where as the other weapon platforms are in the same skill tree.
You appear to be complaining that Caldari is the most SP-intensive race. Well, one race has to be. In any case, why are you advising that CCP look at missiles and not rails? Refocusing Caldari more on to rails would reduce the non-transferable SP problem that you're complaining about; focusing on missiles would make it worse. |
Jayrendo Karr
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2011.12.05 15:03:00 -
[30] - Quote
Rails should be the secondary weapon system for Caldari. Just give rails to Gallente! That's their weapon system! Every other race has one weapon system. Caldari has 2 weapon systems. On top of that, niether of them is very versatile, the basic Caldari method of combat is to sit behind strong shields and pump out missiles. if other races get missile boats why can't Caldari get blasterboats or laser platforms? |
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