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Lucas Schuyler
Mortis Noir. Unforgiving.
7
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Posted - 2011.12.05 15:40:00 -
[31] - Quote
Jayrendo Karr wrote:Aamrr wrote:Sure. Just look at the cerberus, nighthawk, CNR, golem... You know those take an ungodly amount of time to train for properly right?
Isn't this true over every race? It is fairly easy to get into Medium Weapons and Crusier/BCs but the jump to BS weapons and ships is more skill intensive, as is T3 (although I would argue T3s are usually quicker to skill into).
Or is this a stealth complaint about the Naga? |
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CCP Phantom
C C P C C P Alliance
292
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Posted - 2011.12.05 15:52:00 -
[32] - Quote
Moved from Ships and Modules. CCP Phantom - German Community Coordinator |
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
133
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Posted - 2011.12.05 17:28:00 -
[33] - Quote
Jayrendo Karr wrote:Rails should be the secondary weapon system for Caldari. Just give rails to Gallente! That's their weapon system! Every other race has one weapon system. Caldari has 2 weapon systems. On top of that, niether of them is very versatile, the basic Caldari method of combat is to sit behind strong shields and pump out missiles. if other races get missile boats why can't Caldari get blasterboats or laser platforms? Caldari need missiles as a FACTION WEAPON. Ammar have Lasers, Minnie has Guns, Gallente has Blasters, but everyone has missiles. CAN I fit launchers onto a Rokh? Yes But whats the point if it's just another sniper platform with no missile bonuses? Any good missile boat for Calderi takes excruciatingly long training. Nighthawk, Rattlesnake, Cerberus. Why was the drake a success because it was a missile boat! Why was the rave a success? It was a missile boat. Although rarely used people call the Cerberus a very good ship because of it's missiles. Why was the manticore so good? It was a missile boat(and while stealth bombers are usable by all races the manticore is most used because why train missiles to fly one ship as amarr or minnie?)
All railboats are very situation specific to long range engagements. Rokh sucks outside of sniping or very high SP blaster fit, Ferox is beyond a joke, When was the last time you saw a railboat and thought "If he locks me I COULD be obliterated in less than ten seconds" probably never because while extremely useful railboats are solely support ships. If a Megathron locks you within 50 km you gtfoasap, if a Rokh does the same (without adequate backup) you laugh and warp out or just close the gap on the slow moving beast. I'm not saying to redo the rokh. I'm saying just give missile users something to work with besides the standard Raven/drake/tengu.
What an amazingly incomprehensible post. This must be what a diet of L4 missions does to the brain. You have a missile BC, T3 and BS, what more could you possibly want?
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Jayrendo Karr
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2011.12.05 17:38:00 -
[34] - Quote
Lucas Schuyler wrote:Jayrendo Karr wrote:Aamrr wrote:Sure. Just look at the cerberus, nighthawk, CNR, golem... You know those take an ungodly amount of time to train for properly right? Isn't this true over every race? It is fairly easy to get into Medium Weapons and Crusier/BCs but the jump to BS weapons and ships is more skill intensive, as is T3 (although I would argue T3s are usually quicker to skill into). Or is this a stealth complaint about the Naga? Its true for each weapon system Caldari have 2 completely seperate weapon systems other races have 2 weapon systems but they aren't that dfferent so many of their skills are the same. Large t2 Laser whether pulse or beam wil both require Large Energy weapon Skills but if you want to switch from pulse to beam you have most of the skills needed except for the 3 specialization skills.
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Dual_Heavy_Pulse_Laser_II to http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Dual_Heavy_Beam_Laser_II
The transition is fairly basic between pulse and beam requirements.
missiles have low requirements but the transition from missile to rails is a bit much Not to mention having to train for different ammo types FOF and t2 http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Siege_Missile_Launcher_II http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/350mm_Railgun_II
Caldari have to start from the ground up
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Xtover
Macabre Votum Against ALL Authorities
16
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Posted - 2011.12.05 17:43:00 -
[35] - Quote
Mike Whiite wrote:Onictus wrote: ....and lol ungodly, take three weeks to do cruiser V for a Tengu.
Just wondering which Tengu do you fly with only Cuiser V. Because I need this list of minimum skills: Caldari Strategic Cruiser I Caldari Cruiser V Spaceship Command III Caldari Frigate IV Caldari Defensive Systems I Shield Operation V Engineering I Mechanic III Caldari Electronic Systems I Electronics V Caldari Engineering Systems I Engineering V Caldari Offensive Systems I Missile Launcher Operation V Gunnery III Caldari Propulsion Systems I Navigation V While you're on it you might be able to explain where you get about 500,000,000.00 ISK in three weeks to finance it. I don't want to be deff to your arguments but lets keep them realistic. Secondly I don't get this comparing Missiles with Drones, drones are used over many ships, together with a second weapon system, missile launchers are the primairy weapon on their ships (I know there are carriers though that is not realy a a thing you want to compaire this with) .
ok so let's swap the missile subsystem for the hybrid one:
You'd drop Missile Launcher Operation V
But add in:
Gunnery IV Sharpshooter V Surgical Strike IV Trajectory Analysis IV Weapon Upgrades V AWU V (in order to fit the guns you need this) Rapid Firing IV Small hybrid Turret V Small Railgun Specialization IV Medium Hybrid Turret V Medium Railgun Specialization IV
You need those to HIT, something missiles do every time. Oh you need blasters? Train Small and medium Blaster spec to IV also.
Missiles are a secondary weapon system in that they are "easy mode." They're so nubs like you can go off and make some iskies to buy shiny new T1 stuff and learn the game, becoming effective without all the grown-up concerns of tracking, optimal, transversal, and range. Nah, just align somewhere and hit F1. Easy Peasy. |
Xtover
Macabre Votum Against ALL Authorities
16
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Posted - 2011.12.05 17:45:00 -
[36] - Quote
Mike Whiite wrote:Spookyjay wrote:So the argument here is What?
Caldari have a problem with types of ships? Caldari have to few missile boats? Caldari what?
The argument is for CCP to take a good look at missiles and missile ships, because newer Caldari players tend to get stuck after a while and find out they need to start an entire new skill tree to learn the other weapon platforms, where as the other weapon platforms are in the same skill tree.
The problem is that CCP needs to give hybrids a focus once again, so those newer Caldari players don't get some false idea in their head that missiles are a primary weapon system.
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Jayrendo Karr
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2011.12.05 17:56:00 -
[37] - Quote
Xtover wrote:
Missiles are a secondary weapon system in that they are "easy mode." They're so nubs like you can go off and make some iskies to buy shiny new T1 stuff and learn the game, becoming effective without all the grown-up concerns of tracking, optimal, transversal, and range. Nah, just align somewhere and hit F1. Easy Peasy.
You mean like explosion radius, explosion velocity, missile velocity compared to the enemy, swapping ammo types, target priority, wasting ammo, and such? Your're rail guns do damage in comparison to distance, you CAN just kite away and tracking speed and optimal range are basically just guidelines. ie ignoring resistances You do 200 base damage at 50km whether its a frigate or a battleship. Missiles have 1 none module weapon upgrade as opposed to other weapons. Just because a missile user CAN hit F1 and just sit there doesnt mean that it's the best option. I can barely take out frigates, but I'll blow a BS to smithereens.
Any moron can use any weapon system but it takes brains to use any weapon system well.
Missiles are a primary weapon system just like any other. |
Xtover
Macabre Votum Against ALL Authorities
16
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Posted - 2011.12.05 18:26:00 -
[38] - Quote
Jayrendo Karr wrote:You mean like explosion radius, explosion velocity, missile velocity compared to the enemy, swapping ammo types, target priority, wasting ammo, and such? Your're rail guns do damage in comparison to distance, you CAN just kite away and tracking speed and optimal range are basically just guidelines. ie ignoring resistances You do 200 base damage at 50km whether its a frigate or a battleship. Missiles have 1 none module weapon upgrade as opposed to other weapons. Just because a missile user CAN hit F1 and just sit there doesnt mean that it's the best option. I can barely take out frigates, but I'll blow a BS to smithereens.
Any moron can use any weapon system but it takes brains to use any weapon system well.
Missiles are a primary weapon system just like any other.
Spoken like someone who never uses guns.
explosion radius= dealt with the same as tracking when figuring amount to hit = same issue with gunnery ammo types = same with gunnery except can't be switched... so thanks for giving me another point target priority.. REALLY? You think this is MISSILE SPECIFIC?
And no, you can't do ANY base damage.. what the hell are you talking about? There's no "base" it's a chance to hit based upon every little variable between ywo ships... just TO HIT which missiles do EVERY TIME.
Missiles are easy mode. Why? Because during a fight, your explosion radius can't be changed. You can't use your skill to do anything unless you click another module to paint your target.
I'm sick of morons comparing the fact missiles use explosion radius to calculate hit damge as if it's some kind of hurdle you need to think about when in combat. IT'S NOT. It just means you won't hit a little ship for full damage. NOTHING in your skillful little mind will change that save the big red TP button- not your transversal, not your speed. It's your unmodifiable-during-combat explosion VELOCITY, and even then it's nothing about YOU but the person you are fighting.
Missiles are easy mode. You fire and hope they hit for more damage than is being dealt to you. Nothing YOU DO modifies this during a fight unless you forget to activate your target painter.
You're an idiot.
Now go away. |
FlinchingNinja Kishunuba
Perkone Caldari State
11
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Posted - 2011.12.05 18:46:00 -
[39] - Quote
Really not sure why there is so much aggro about this, buff rails, buff defense missiles.
Or is this a OMG I want my life made easier thread? Or perhaps a wait this weapon system is slightly different to another one, it has different pros and cons.... OMG!
I demand that all races are balanced to the point that only the graphical effect of the weapon and ships differentiate them!
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Jayrendo Karr
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2011.12.05 19:13:00 -
[40] - Quote
Well then CCP either needs to state CLEARLY that missiles are NOT a primary weapon, or just delete missiles because their useless and noone likes them. /sarcasm.
All people say is TRAIN MISSILES AND GET A DRAKE So I spent six months training to fly a drake only to find out that missiles aren't my race's primary weapon. Maybe if the ferox didn't suck **** I'd of chosen differently. I'm angry because Caldari needs to be rails or missiles and that any moron should know whether Caldari is rails or missiles.
From my perspective guns are ez-mode. Kite and shoot amirite? No thats not right but I'm not going to dismiss the weapon system just because some people use easy tactics. Missiles are fine as is, what I want are some options with which to use missiles ie maybe a fast ship with less tank. There's also no need for insults. So how about instead of whining because you think missiles are easy and boring you propose a change to make them fun or interesting or hard or whatever. |
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Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
150
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Posted - 2011.12.05 20:06:00 -
[41] - Quote
Mike Whiite wrote:Onictus wrote: ....and lol ungodly, take three weeks to do cruiser V for a Tengu.
Just wondering which Tengu do you fly with only Cuiser V. Because I need this list of minimum skills: Caldari Strategic Cruiser I Caldari Cruiser V Spaceship Command III Caldari Frigate IV Caldari Defensive Systems I Shield Operation V Engineering I Mechanic III Caldari Electronic Systems I Electronics V Caldari Engineering Systems I Engineering V Caldari Offensive Systems I Missile Launcher Operation V Gunnery III Caldari Propulsion Systems I Navigation V
that's bare mininmal skills, if you want sufficient skills you need to add
Caldari strategic cruiser IV defensive system IV Electronic system IV Engineering systems IV Offensive Systems IV Propulsion systems IV heavy missiles V or HAM V heavy missile pecialization I or Ham specialization 1 Targetting V Long range targetting III ALL the missile support skills to 4 Several other skills that I can't think of that have to do with cap, cpu, power, shields, rigs, and whatever else the tengu relys on.
Again, the skills you gave were the bear minimal. You need to have several more skills to actually fly the ships properly with the average tank and dps you see on most tengus.
As far as the whole comment on missile boat progression.
the difference between turrets and missiles is that turrets have a line of progression. The skills you're training to better yourself in that frig are going to help your cruiser, the skills you're training in that cruiser will help to better your bc, the skills in the bc help to better your bs's, etc. etc...
Way different with missile. Expecially since the caracal and drake are best used as passive tanks, which don't really help with active tank ships. |
Xtover
Macabre Votum Against ALL Authorities
19
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Posted - 2011.12.05 20:20:00 -
[42] - Quote
Jayrendo Karr wrote:Well then CCP either needs to state CLEARLY that missiles are NOT a primary weapon, or just delete missiles because their useless and noone likes them. /sarcasm.
All people say is TRAIN MISSILES AND GET A DRAKE So I spent six months training to fly a drake properly with all the engineering/electronics/cpu/powergrid upgrades only to find out that missiles aren't my race's primary weapon. Maybe if the ferox didn't suck **** I'd of chosen differently. I'm angry because Caldari needs to be rails or missiles and that any moron should be able to figure out whether Caldari is rails or missiles.
From my perspective guns are ez-mode. Kite and shoot amirite? No thats not right but I'm not going to dismiss the weapon system just because some people use easy tactics. Missiles are fine as is, what I want are some options with which to use missiles ie maybe a fast ship with less tank. There's also no need for insults. So how about instead of whining because you think missiles are easy and boring you propose a change to make them fun or interesting or hard or whatever.
what in the hell are you babbling about?
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HELLBOUNDMAN
Brothers Through Rebellious Actions
2
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Posted - 2011.12.05 20:28:00 -
[43] - Quote
make missiles more pvp viable
greatly increase velocity
Greatly reduce flight time
Remove explosion velocity and related skills for an accuracy skill.
Balance dps/rate of fire/etc. as needed.
Missile become more pvp viable.
then, if wanted, make caldari a pure missile race.
Since missiles will be a more viable option for all combat besides pve, then it will make sense that Caldari can become a pure missile boat race.
So now you'll have your hybrid race. Your lasers race, your missiles race, and your projectile race. |
Jayrendo Karr
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2011.12.05 20:42:00 -
[44] - Quote
Xtover wrote: what in the hell are you babbling about?
Do you even have a Caldari character? Missiles don't have as many requirements to use, but anyone with half a brain trains all the other missile skills because its just the smart thing to do. |
Terranid Meester
Tactical Assault and Recon Unit
0
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Posted - 2011.12.05 20:57:00 -
[45] - Quote
Some missile ships.
Tristan Crow Lachesis Sacrilege Typhoon Legion Flycatcher Stabber Fleet Issue Blackbird Purifier
etc |
Velicitia
Open Designs
164
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Posted - 2011.12.05 21:00:00 -
[46] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote: the difference between turrets and missiles is that turrets have a line of progression. The skills you're training to better yourself in that frig are going to help your cruiser, the skills you're training in that cruiser will help to better your bc, the skills in the bc help to better your bs's, etc. etc...
right, because small hybrid turret will help with mediums...
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Jayrendo Karr
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2011.12.05 21:01:00 -
[47] - Quote
Terranid Meester wrote:Some missile ships.
Tristan Crow Lachesis Sacrilege Typhoon Legion Flycatcher Stabber Fleet Issue Blackbird Purifier etc These aren't Caldari though. I just want CCP to pick Rails or Missiles for Caldari. |
Xtover
Macabre Votum Against ALL Authorities
20
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Posted - 2011.12.05 22:22:00 -
[48] - Quote
Jayrendo Karr wrote:Xtover wrote: what in the hell are you babbling about?
Do you even have a Caldari character? Missiles don't have as many requirements to use, but anyone with half a brain trains all the other missile skills because its just the smart thing to do. Why, because my character is Amarr? Why would you question that? Yes, this character uses missiles quite often, for sacrilege, vengeance, and even a Drake. Oh and the malediction. I also trained drones because I love the curse.
Oh, my other char is caldari rolled and specced in missiles first...all the way up to citadel cruises AND torps, but also can fly hybrids.
So yeah, I speak from experience. |
Xtover
Macabre Votum Against ALL Authorities
20
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Posted - 2011.12.05 22:23:00 -
[49] - Quote
Jayrendo Karr wrote:Terranid Meester wrote:Some missile ships.
Tristan Crow Lachesis Sacrilege Typhoon Legion Flycatcher Stabber Fleet Issue Blackbird Purifier etc These aren't Caldari though. I just want CCP to pick Rails or Missiles for Caldari. Why does it have to be only one? That's dull.
This whole thread is a whine because of the Naga, isn't it. |
Jayrendo Karr
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2011.12.05 22:28:00 -
[50] - Quote
Xtover wrote:
This whole thread is a whine because of the Naga, isn't it.
WELL I HAVE TO WHINE ABOUT SOMETHING TBH i don't care anymore. I just wonder if people will still use the rokh as much. **** errthang else im getting a tengu. |
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Misanthra
Alternative Enterprises
2
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Posted - 2011.12.05 23:13:00 -
[51] - Quote
Jayrendo Karr wrote:These aren't Caldari though. I just want CCP to pick Rails or Missiles for Caldari.
hybrids are for pvp. Missiles are lacking at pvp. Excpet for rocket ships like hawk/hookbill and drake spam most of the missile inventory sucks ass. at BS level this becomes real clear. Cruise is a poor fleet weapson. Velocity, radiius, flight time.....all adds up to a poor weapons system. torps same thing. torpphoon makes it work because it actually has speed. Torp raven is like blasterthron. Great alpha weapons system....any ship short of caps and freighters will pull away from you and your range though. torps work for sb's....range bonus to fire and gtfo done right.
Great pve weapons but that is because fit allows it. PVP fit will not be triple rigor/flared (you'll have resists rigs for EMP and amarr thermal/em lazers, maybe cdfe), between tank, sebo, etc, double tp fits ain't flying. Lows will be a dcu, probably a pdu....losing bcu's. All adds up to a boat that hits like ass and not the dps boat you are used to.
Hence the hybrids and the rokh and now naga. Instant hit. Makes FC's happy, caldari boats that contribute to alpha strikes not every 30 seconds later. If you'd learn these things you'd like it. You fire, you hit as fast as that damage pop up comes up on screen. Its cool stuff.
If you are strict pve...this not even an issue. Tengu,CNR,golem. Wtf more do you need. all 3 arguably top 5 pve boats depending on criteria chosen. Not getting naga for pve...one web/scram frig and its watch your ship die so a very good thing.
PVP...accept the guns and move. Or get get real good at making money to spam tengu's in pvp till you are cap capable. then you can be happy running the phoenix. the least liked dread in the game. Least liked for its......wait for it.............
missiles.
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Aglais
Liberation Army BricK sQuAD.
29
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Posted - 2011.12.06 00:15:00 -
[52] - Quote
Well, you do have an option. The option to continue down a road that will pigeonhole you into one role because missiles lack any kind of advantages over guns, or having to train gunnery skills and go for hybrids.
I'd choose gunnery skills, if I were you, and I'm speaking from experience. You MIGHT be able to get by with a Drake, really, because honestly they're not bad ships.
There seems to be alot more whining about missiles and Caldari not performing well in PvP lately. |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Against ALL Authorities
53
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Posted - 2011.12.06 00:47:00 -
[53] - Quote
Mike Whiite wrote: ....and lol ungodly, take three weeks to do cruiser V for a Tengu.
Just wondering which Tengu do you fly with only Cuiser V.[/quote]
There are no NON racial cruiser skills my friend....Caldari Cruiser V is plainly on the list below.
Mike Whiite wrote: Because I need this list of minimum skills:
Caldari Strategic Cruiser I Caldari Cruiser V Spaceship Command III Caldari Frigate IV Caldari Defensive Systems I Shield Operation V Engineering I Mechanic III Caldari Electronic Systems I Electronics V Caldari Engineering Systems I Engineering V Caldari Offensive Systems I Missile Launcher Operation V Gunnery III Caldari Propulsion Systems I Navigation V
While you're on it you might be able to explain where you get about 500,000,000.00 ISK in three weeks to finance it.
I don't want to be deff to your arguments but lets keep them realistic.
Secondly I don't get this comparing Missiles with Drones, drones are used over many ships, together with a second weapon system, missile launchers are the primairy weapon on their ships (I know there are carriers though that is not realy a a thing you want to compaire this with) .
This is getting repetitious.
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Misanthra
Alternative Enterprises
2
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Posted - 2011.12.06 01:31:00 -
[54] - Quote
Aglais wrote:There seems to be alot more whining about missiles and Caldari not performing well in PvP lately.
just not bs quality weapons. drake is workable now since fleets work around them now (bulk of my drake days were in the age of harbs and canes so opinion is colored for them as a drake got whatever sloppy seconds lasers and projectiles left behind).
Rocket buff fixed frigs nice. Can be very able fighters now.
Just BS level is lacking. Hybrids takes up the slack. Which actually makes sense. Fleet bs should be hard to get. 3 races have a rough path to it. 4th one can do it too. Not like they suffer alone. A good minny pilots learns missiles too.
Oddly enough....they don't whine nearly as much as some caldari players do about these guns. Which is quite funny....they train missiles to fill in high slots with secondaries....hybrids are primary weapons on severla ships. Rockets on af, ham on cane, split weapons on Nag. Torpphoon and hound thier only commonly used missile only boats (some oddball t2 cruisers as well...but not commonly run ships). |
Goose99
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
276
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Posted - 2011.12.06 01:47:00 -
[55] - Quote
Drakes work in blobs, and despite hml, not because of it. If it has turrets slots, those drakes would've been fit differently.
The fast that you fit neuts instead of hmls in a cane's spare highs say something about how "good" they are. |
Mike Whiite
Progressive State
5
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Posted - 2011.12.06 07:37:00 -
[56] - Quote
Quote:Onictus wrote:Mike Whiite wrote: ....and lol ungodly, take three weeks to do cruiser V for a Tengu.
Just wondering which Tengu do you fly with only Cuiser V. There are no NON racial cruiser skills my friend....Caldari Cruiser V is plainly on the list below.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=468266#post468266
That first line is a quote from you :D
Don't mind you want to correct yourself, though keep the credits where they are due. |
Mike Whiite
Progressive State
5
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Posted - 2011.12.06 08:07:00 -
[57] - Quote
Gypsio III wrote:Mike Whiite wrote:Spookyjay wrote:So the argument here is What?
Caldari have a problem with types of ships? Caldari have to few missile boats? Caldari what?
The argument is for CCP to take a good look at missiles and missile ships, because newer Caldari players tend to get stuck after a while and find out they need to start an entire new skill tree to learn the other weapon platforms, where as the other weapon platforms are in the same skill tree. You appear to be complaining that Caldari is the most SP-intensive race. Well, one race has to be. In any case, why are you advising that CCP look at missiles and not rails? Refocusing Caldari more on to rails would reduce the non-transferable SP problem that you're complaining about; focusing on missiles would make it worse.
When they look at missiles the outcome could be they need to refocus on hybrids, I won't claim I know enough of game mechanics to know how each change infuences the other mechanics.
I would not be against a refocus on rails, if that is the outcome, I think that be hard when the ships people start in tends towards missiles only one t1 frigate has a hybrid bonus (Merlin) and dat has only two turret hardpoints and only the Moa has a hybrid bonus in the cruiser class, though it's by far the most expensive cruiser, most people will be flying a Caracal by then.
And although it might apear to some of you I'm grief sicking with the fact Caldari are more sp intensive or that the Naga is a hybrid ship or something else. My main focus is to give newer players a short term focus before the larger parts that make EVE the intresting game it is come to them, bacause I do think there is a gap there where EVE looses a lot of players.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
134
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Posted - 2011.12.06 13:02:00 -
[58] - Quote
Mike Whiite wrote:When they look at missiles the outcome could be they need to refocus on hybrids, I won't claim I know enough of game mechanics to know how each change infuences the other mechanics.
I would not be against a refocus on rails, if that is the outcome, I think that be hard when the ships people start in tends towards missiles only one t1 frigate has a hybrid bonus (Merlin) and dat has only two turret hardpoints and only the Moa has a hybrid bonus in the cruiser class, though it's by far the most expensive cruiser, most people will be flying a Caracal by then.
And although it might apear to some of you I'm grief sicking with the fact Caldari are more sp intensive or that the Naga is a hybrid ship or something else. My main focus is to give newer players a short term focus before the larger parts that make EVE the intresting game it is come to them, bacause I do think there is a gap there where EVE looses a lot of players.
Still not sure what you're complaining about I'm afraid. Caldari has a line of missile boats, and another of railboats (yeah yeah blasters too). You say that only one T1 frigate and cruiser has a hybrid bonus (Merlin, Moa), but only one T1 frigate and cruiser has a useful missile bonus - Caracal and Kestrel. The dual lines then continues into the BC and BS level with Ferox/Nagaand Rokh being the rail counterparts to Drake and Raven.
You say that you want new players to be able to have a short-term focus, but they can do this, by focusing on one of the dual weapon lines. Or even the ECM line, if you count that as a third line of weapons. Once they have got to a good level in one weapon line, they can switch to the other, and thence on to other races. Yes, it makes the race SP-intensive, but it does not mean that effective ships do not exist at low SP levels. In fact, this is pretty much what I did - I started off focused on missiles and Caldari, then trained up Amarr to fly Khanid missile boats, then Minmatar for a bit for the Typhoon, before sorting out hybrids and the other guns.
The alternative would be for Caldari to be purely missiles or purely hybrids, but that gives us nothing because we already have the ships that we need in each weapon line, while removing diversity from Caldari. Alternatively, we could make all Caldari ships split ships with missiles and hybrids... but that's just masochistic.
People have complained about the Caldari railboats on the grounds that hybrids are rubbish. They have a point. But this is an argument to fix hybrids, not to remove diversity from the race and the game by reworking those railboats into clones of missile boats that we already have, at the considerable risk of making one of the new or old ship obsolete and pointless, in a Prophecy/Harbinger style. |
m3talc0re X
SandStorm. The Babylon Consortium
33
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Posted - 2011.12.07 02:37:00 -
[59] - Quote
HELLBOUNDMAN's post is probably the least biased response I've seen in this thread... I agree with what you said, and it's all been discussed before. One of the problems though is that CCP said when they make missiles go too fast, they start doing wierd things in the game. **** don't work right basically. They need to fix that problem, then make missile work better.
What's being ignored here is plain and simple. Turret ships have much more variety than missile boats. You don't have that many options for missiles. This same holds true if you want to use hybrids (rails mainly) on Caldari ships. They suck. The guns themselves suck and the ships that use them only complicate that matter.
Missiles are a primary weapon system. Comparing them to drones is noobish. Caldari do have some nice missile ships, but those ships need more. That or it would be really nice to give Caldari more options for railguns. As railguns ARE Caldari. Blasters are Gallente. Every Caldari ship that has a range bonus needs it changed to rof or damage. Range bonus on weapon systems that are already long range is completely ********.
I also fly all four races and use their weapons. Missiles suck, even in PvE. Guns vastly outperform them. Don't give me that changable damage type bullshit everyone likes to say either. That's speaking from a lack of experience. Nothing is weak to just one single damage type. Guristas are weak to kinetic. Amarr can't apply kinetic damage. But what's this, Guristas are also fairly weak to thermal. Amarr can apply lots of thermal damage. This holds true to almost every npc type and weapon system. The only one off the top of my head that this doesn't work with is Amarr vs Angels. Being weak to mostly Explosive and Kinetic, lasers can't do either.
And just to give all of you with biased opinions something to think about, stop seeing everything from your own point of view.
There is a lot of RP involved with most players decisions on ships/weapons. You want to fly something because it's not op, but because that's what you like. It holds true to your preferred race. So lets say, for the sake of argument, you are limited to one race and their weapons. Would you really want to be stuck with Caldari and missiles with horrible railgun boats? Now what would you like to help alleviate that problem. Sure their easy/quick to train for compared to missiles. But you're also giving up quite a bit.
Missile biased opinions: if you haven't used guns and trained heavily for them, then you have no room to complain. For comparisons sake: Missiles - Some support skills > Cruise Launcher 5 > Cruise Launcher Spec > 4 = done (no need for other launchers)
Guns - Some support skills > Small Hybrid Turret 5 > Small Railgun Spec 4 > Medium Hybrid Turret 5 > Medium Railgun Spec 4 > Large Hybrid Turret 5 > Large Railgun Spec 4 = done Repeat all spec skills to 4 for Blasters.
Missiles need more damage, they need to be faster, and they need more Caldari ships based for missiles. Missiles also need tiered skill trees equal to turrets. You want T2 cruise missiles? Train the smaller ones up first to reach them. The problem with this is how missiles are separated from their groups like turrets are. So:
... Tell you what. If you're reading this now, I'm working on an image to elaborate this easier... I'll get it on here shortly. |
HELLBOUNDMAN
Brothers Through Rebellious Actions
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Posted - 2011.12.07 03:45:00 -
[60] - Quote
m3talc0re X wrote:HELLBOUNDMAN's post is probably the least biased response I've seen in this thread... I agree with what you said, and it's all been discussed before. One of the problems though is that CCP said when they make missiles go too fast, they start doing wierd things in the game. **** don't work right basically. They need to fix that problem, then make missile work better.
I try....
But after running with corp mates just a minute ago with my missiles, and them in turrets, I came across a huge problem. The 5 players I was with had turrets, but one in a dominix. Now, my missiles were much more effective against the targets, and I had more dps than the dominix pilot. Yet, the targets were being destroyed before my volleys could even hit in most cases. The further away the targets were, the less effective I became.
Sure, the close range targets were all mine in most cases, but seriously. Missiles have 3 things going for them, they can pick the strongest damage types against their targets, they always hit, and they can hit anything within their range for the same dps reguardless of how far or close it is.
I just feel that they should really figure out how to boost missiles to have a lot faster velocity and shorter flight time. Personally, I think they should scrap missiles as is and completely revamp them without having to figure out how to modify them. Might just be easier to start over. However, it would be nice if they didn't remove them from game until they had them redesigned and ready to go.(cause they're all I can and want to use)
Quote:Missiles need more damage, they need to be faster, and they need more Caldari ships based for missiles. Missiles also need tiered skill trees equal to turrets. You want T2 cruise missiles? Train the smaller ones up first to reach them. The problem with this is how missiles are separated from their groups like turrets are.
I personally don't care if they tier missiles. It would actually be more helpful to missile pilots because then they'll already have the skills if they need or want to jump into a smaller ship for something. Doesn't take much time to train missiles to lvl 4
But how would it work? Would they be seperated in trees by guided and unguided missiles, or what? So rockets, assaults, hams, torps Standards, heavies, cruise
Or would you go rockets, standards/assaults, heavies/hams, cruise, torps--(or maybe cruise/torps) |
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