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Ma'Kahn
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Posted - 2006.11.06 10:15:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Ma''Kahn on 06/11/2006 10:16:56 Hi!
Quite some time ago I deactivated my accounts because I suffered some more or less severe illness and also because of the fact that I wasn't satisfied with eve any more. Don't get me wrong, it's a good game but some aspects of it got me to the point where I decided to cancel for the time being. As mentioned, some time passed since then so I thought I'd come back here and take a look around on what's happening. Kali is kind of progressing and the first stage is about to launch, so I want to hear your thoughts about it.
Before you ask, these some of the reasons why I canceled:
- PvP Eve is a PvP game, so naturally the PvE aspect is "lacking" (to put it mildly). So when I started PvPing itwas pretty exciting at first, but eventually I got really fed up with it. Flying in small squads was the most fun, until it got to the point where whenever I actually was in one of them we had to face huge blobs because the enemies were (naturally) to scared to fight on even grounds. No hard feelings here... numbers win, but it still sucks in terms of gameplay fun (at least to me).
- Blobbing
Later I decided to fly with the big boys... the huge gangs... the fleets, you know the deal. This is pretty much where I quit. You'd launch these gangs of 100-whatever people and conduct these massive operations, sitting in front of your screen non-stop for like 6 hours, and at the end of the day nothing happened. Fleets would dance around in blobs, anxiously trying to outnumber each other. Fleet commanders would sit there and literally talk-talk-talk their behinds off all day long until eventually their mouth got all fuzzy and they went to bed, burned out... and nothing happened. I don't think I need to tell you how extremely dissatisfying this kind of stuff is, since I am sure many, if not most of you, have been through this several times.
The huge problem I saw back then was the fact that while covert-ops were cool ships, their scouting abilities were not efficient and not balanced out. It was possible for an entire armada of ship to fly into enemy territory and hide there all day long, with no way to ever get a hold of it to shoot it down. You could even shut down entire mining systems of your enemy alone, since there was no effective way of tracking someone down. Not cool.
So essentially... what I asking is: What do you, the players, think about upcoming stuff and what's going to happen to the PvP/fleetbattle/gang-combat side of the game? Can I hope to come back one day and enjoy a game where most of my playtime is actually spent doing something or are we looking at boring blobfests and gank-setups for the time being?
Thanks for answers. Cheers. |
Valkazm
Amarr Cursed Spawn SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.06 10:22:00 -
[2]
I doubt there gonna change the game for you . People find diffrent things fun in the game if you want action there is shot em up games with alot of action jumping around throwing grenades .
Cursed Spawn recruitment |
Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.06 10:31:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Valkazm I doubt there gonna change the game for you . People find diffrent things fun in the game if you want action there is shot em up games with alot of action jumping around throwing grenades .
I can recommend Fear Combat btw... its Fear online and its free to download and play. You get a installation key by email. Very good maps, nice weapons and lots of people on the servers. I like it a lot. :)
Download site
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Ethidium Bromide
ZEALOT WARRIORS AGAINST TERRORISTS Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.06 10:43:00 -
[4]
well, sometimes EVE is just nice background graphics for a simple chat
Originally by: George Petsch Nochricht: Dei schwarer StroinlSser trifftn Karli[Baatzis] und ruiniert erm so richtig de Dosn, 1343.7 schhodn, oida.
My sig is blue not pink although i can't argue with the slave part - Xorus wth whats this blue stuff all of a sudden? Did I miss a mail? -eris Bwahahahaha!11 Immy was here
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nutbar
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2006.11.06 10:52:00 -
[5]
Edited by: nutbar on 06/11/2006 10:53:02
Originally by: Ethidium Bromide well, sometimes EVE is just nice background graphics for a simple chat
If you stay in your noob corp, it's the most expensive chat system ever (I think anyhow.. not sure how much **** chats are) :D Not sure how much time I've spent playing eve vs chatting - but I'm sure it's close to equal :)
I only wish that you could join a corp but stay in your noob corp as well - maybe one day they'll add something like that, allowing you to work for multiple corps... just like an extended job contract. Why? noob corp chat FTW! (or perhaps it's just SWA that's so darned entertaining)
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Ma'Kahn
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Posted - 2006.11.06 11:30:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Ma''Kahn on 06/11/2006 11:30:09 So... any chance of getting a decent reply around here or is really that hopeless?
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Max Godsnottlingson
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Posted - 2006.11.06 11:31:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Max Godsnottlingson on 06/11/2006 11:34:50 I think one of the problems with PvP in Eve is one that very much mirrors real life battles, and that is. On the whole a battle does not happen unless both sides agree to fight. The 20th C perhaps brought some cjanges to this, but generally you will still get a peroid of 'dancing before a battle' and if one side is at adisadvantage and decides not to give battle, the advantage will generally be with them. Most people also tend to think of the battle starting when the first shots are fired, but again, in reality the battle starts as soon as somebody decides to fight, and starts planning it. Pearl Harbour didn't start when the first Zero or Val dived out of the sky, but when some japanese officer thought "The Americans have all their eggs in one basket and the British have show us how to deal with that!" (reference to the Royal Navy carrier attack on the Italian fleet at Torento)
Though Eve is a game, you have real people controlling those ships and nobody wants to comit to a fight unless they feel that they have a more then good chance of winning. So battle fleets will dance about each other. Pirates will run away. The person who understands that will have the advantage beacuse they will take this into account and try to plan accordingly.
Though I am pretty anti-pirate myself I do get fed up of people constantly whinning about gate campers who always run away. That's what pirates do and that's what needs planning for. We know they are going to be alligned to a Safe spot, we know they are going to be well stabbed, we know that they will run at the first sign of trouble, so planning is needed to try and counter that, and not just to storm in to blast a rapidly emptying part of space.
So I guess that unless CCP decide to bring things into the game to stop people running away things won't change. Then I suspect Eve will simply degenerate into a simple slug fest with those who bring the most guns to the battle always winning
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Ethidium Bromide
ZEALOT WARRIORS AGAINST TERRORISTS Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.06 11:36:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Ma'Kahn Edited by: Ma''Kahn on 06/11/2006 11:30:09 So... any chance of getting a decent reply around here or is really that hopeless?
i think that with adding new ships, modules and content and more and more players coming into the game you have to make things easier. back in the time when 30 people in local was a lot for a BUSY system all was easier. nowadays you have blobs the size of jita moving through 0.0...
i think that CCP's answer to that is on the one hand offering more diversity but on the other hand keeping things simple or even making them simpler again.
it's just the same as with democracy... it's definitly not the best way but there is no better.
Originally by: George Petsch Nochricht: Dei schwarer StroinlSser trifftn Karli[Baatzis] und ruiniert erm so richtig de Dosn, 1343.7 schhodn, oida.
My sig is blue not pink although i can't argue with the slave part - Xorus wth whats this blue stuff all of a sudden? Did I miss a mail? -eris Bwahahahaha!11 Immy was here
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Zarch AlDain
Friends of Everyone
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Posted - 2006.11.06 11:44:00 -
[9]
Small gang pvp is alive and well - lots of corps do it all the time.
Raiding parties against the enemy etc.
Fleets engaging each other? that's down to the fleet commanders and there isn't much eve can do about it.
The new gang system might help though - and the new scan probe system sounds like it is much easier to track people down.
Zarch AlDain
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Tonkin
Black Lance Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.06 11:46:00 -
[10]
even if your out numbered there is ways to kill them, all you need is a cov ops and range, pop one then run, continue to do that and the other gang fc will have a nervous brake down.
Sig removed, you sig was too ubber to display and ccp had no choice but to nerf it - CCP(NERFBAT)
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Ma'Kahn
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Posted - 2006.11.06 11:52:00 -
[11]
Keeping things easy doesn't imply keeping them boring, no? In any other game I've played you'd kinda expect to be able to track something down when it enters your territory. In order to have something happen people need to be able to find each other, right?
Eve is the only game I know where this isn't the case and it's hurting the game in my opinion. When you have close to 200 people organize to make these fleet battles happen, wouldn't you expect something to happen that day? With the way eve worked, or let's put it that way... with the way it worked when I pressed the "I'm out" button you would spend entire days of gaming just to have nothing happen at the end besides chatter and smack on TS. Don't know... it's just not what I consider good game. So naturally I'm asking if anything os goind to change on that front. Is real scouting ever actually going to make it into this game or will it stay the way it is?
Another gripe I had was the local chat and how it served as the ultimate noob-radar. However I don't feel like elaborating on that since people tend to go spastic whenever this topic comes up...
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Ugleb
Khumatari Holdings Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2006.11.06 12:00:00 -
[12]
Replying to the OP, the bulk of your complaint isn't anything to do with EVE mechanics, is due to player mentality. The game doesn't make fleets stand off, the players do. The only answer to that is to relocate yourself to a different area and fight different people who havn't settled into a habitual stand off vs your corp/alliance. Shake up your habits.
Now your covert point is mechanics, and kali looks set to change it. System scanning is getting a total overhaul and by the sounds of it specialised ships are going to be better at tracking down the enemy.
The Warp core stab nerf should see less setups designed to gank and run and make it easier to hold ships down. That should shift some small group tactics but it won't eliminate over cautious player mentality. It just forces a few more fights, which should be a good thing.
As for the uber blobs, the new gang mechanics might help. Gang sizes capped according to skills might encourage smaller fleet formations or at least reduce the availiability of immense fleets if an uber FC character isnt around to form the gang. I'm hoping the new formations will encourage more fluid actions with smaller squadrons/wings operating more independently of one big blob. It's in the hands of the players but I hope the new tools and limits will encourage a shift in attitudes.
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Ma'Kahn
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Posted - 2006.11.06 12:23:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Ugleb Replying to the OP, the bulk of your complaint isn't anything to do with EVE mechanics, is due to player mentality. The game doesn't make fleets stand off, the players do. The only answer to that is to relocate yourself to a different area and fight different people who havn't settled into a habitual stand off vs your corp/alliance. Shake up your habits.
I disagree, totally. "Don't hate the player, hate the game" totally matched my line of thinking back then. Players just try to be as efficient as possible to win under the rules set forth by the game, this is natural, and this is also where eve fails miserably in my opinion. With no efficient scout ships in place it was/is impossible to force a fight in most situations. This is exactly what leads to 'blobfests'. You could have a fleet-commander ready and able to attack an invading fleet, but the way the game works makes it possible to completely avoid him, leaving him unable to do anything. Not cool.
Quote:
Now your covert point is mechanics, and kali looks set to change it. System scanning is getting a total overhaul and by the sounds of it specialised ships are going to be better at tracking down the enemy.
Cool! Something like this is what I am hoping for. Got any ETAs or links or whatever?
Quote:
The Warp core stab nerf should see less setups designed to gank and run and make it easier to hold ships down. That should shift some small group tactics but it won't eliminate over cautious player mentality. It just forces a few more fights, which should be a good thing.
Yes. I don't mind over-cautious players either. What I don't like with is when the game gives them all the tools required to avoid a confrontation, while the other side is left with very few or literally no options at all.
Quote:
As for the uber blobs, the new gang mechanics might help...
Sounds decent.
Quote: It's in the hands of the players but I hope the new tools and limits will encourage a shift in attitudes.
I kindly disagree again. Players just play a game to the max and do what they can to succeed in their ways. It's in the hands of gamedesign to shape the experience in a way that is most immersive and fun as possible to the players.
Thanks for the reply btw. There was actually some decent info in there, which is what I am looking for with this thread.
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Matthew
Caldari BloodStar Technologies
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Posted - 2006.11.06 12:47:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Ma'Kahn
Quote:
Now your covert point is mechanics, and kali looks set to change it. System scanning is getting a total overhaul and by the sounds of it specialised ships are going to be better at tracking down the enemy.
Cool! Something like this is what I am hoping for. Got any ETAs or links or whatever?
Start with This blog, which shows the lovely new seamless map and how it makes scanning visualisation much nicer. You'll also want to follow this thread in the kali testing forum. Basically, the new scanning system is much easier and faster to use in order to drop in on someone at a safespot. And you can even scan down cloaked ships (though it's much more difficult than for normal ships).
Originally by: Ma'Kahn [ Quote: It's in the hands of the players but I hope the new tools and limits will encourage a shift in attitudes.
I kindly disagree again. Players just play a game to the max and do what they can to succeed in their ways. It's in the hands of gamedesign to shape the experience in a way that is most immersive and fun as possible to the players.
While I agree that what you describe is the sensible thing for players to do, I've learnt that relatively few players are sensible. There are certain sections of the playerbase for any game that will decide before they even start playing how they want the game to play. When they find it doesn't play that way, they will moan and try and get the game changed, rather than change their own behaviour. Game design has very limited influence on these people, because they believe it is the game that is in the wrong, rather than themselves.
Of course, there is a fine line between wanting to improve the game, and wanting to change it into a different type of game, and where that line is really depends on your individual view of the game. ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines. |
Ma'Kahn
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Posted - 2006.11.06 13:07:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Matthew Of course, there is a fine line between wanting to improve the game, and wanting to change it into a different type of game, and where that line is really depends on your individual view of the game.
Right, but in my opinion the mindset of players is ultimately irrelevant as long as the developers to a decent job. Gamedesign can define rules and conditions and use those to force players into certain ways or channels so to speak. The art is channeling the player's energy in a way that their mindset and playstyle doesn't dominate the rest or a fraction of the playerbase. Of course there are griefers in every game, and/or people who are looking to play the game in a very certain way, but as long as gamedesign does a good job at defining the rules and possibilities properly, those players will have no options but to follow those rules. In that regard what they (the players) think is unimportant.
Personally I am not the one to try a get a game changed to match what I think it should be. I just look at the game and evaluate whether I like what I see or not. I can and do make suggestions and ask questions, but I don't expect or demand anything. If I don't like how the game plays I simply quit.
I like Eve. It's a great game overall and I've played it fore a long time, but there are these points I mentioned that made it sort of a "no-go" for me at the moment. So I hope that things will change somewhat and that the game evolves, hopefully for the better.
Thanks for the links, I will read through all of it when I have some time this evening.
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Jenny Spitfire
Caldari Boryokudan Incorporated
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Posted - 2006.11.06 13:15:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Ethidium Bromide well, sometimes EVE is just nice background graphics for a simple chat
Huh? I thought EvE is a chat client with a bonus game ... --------- Faction Warfare Begins Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! |
Tonkin
Black Lance Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.06 13:19:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Originally by: Ethidium Bromide well, sometimes EVE is just nice background graphics for a simple chat
Huh? I thought EvE is a chat client with a bonus game ...
eve has a bonus game?
YOU LIE Sig removed, you sig was too ubber to display and ccp had no choice but to nerf it - CCP(NERFBAT)
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Ginger Magician
Minmatar OctoberSnow Corp
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Posted - 2006.11.06 13:24:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Ginger Magician on 06/11/2006 13:25:50 Covert ops frigs ruined fleet combat and then they went and compounded their mistakes by introducing cruiser class equivalents.
These ships canot be killed unless they make a major error or suffer a bug.
Making ships that are basically invunerable was a huge mistake. Recently word got round that they were thinking of making a patch so that ships who were being targetted could not cloak. Mention of this nerf caused huge uproar on the forums and 20 page thread of whines and CCP were forced to retract their patch pretty **** quick.
Once carebears have a nice soft cuddly toy taking it away is like removing it from a 2 year old unfortunately. Unless covert ops ships are either removed or nerfed any form of fleet combat will continue to be as the OP described
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Synapse Archae
Amarr Solarflare Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2006.11.06 13:26:00 -
[19]
If your enemy has room to dance, then you dont have him by the balls. :D
By which I mean if you have a fleet out and your enemy isnt fighting, go take an outpost or a POS. Its quite possible to make an enemy hurt for not engaging you. POSs and outposts are all about forcing an enemy fleet too come deal with you or they lose their space.
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http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=349194&page=1Redo Fleets[/ur |
Ma'Kahn
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Posted - 2006.11.06 13:37:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Synapse Archae If your enemy has room to dance, then you dont have him by the balls. :D
By which I mean if you have a fleet out and your enemy isnt fighting, go take an outpost or a POS. Its quite possible to make an enemy hurt for not engaging you. POSs and outposts are all about forcing an enemy fleet too come deal with you or they lose their space.
You are right, but what you say only really applies to alliance warfare.
Originally by: "Ginger Magician"
... These ships canot be killed unless they make a major error or suffer a bug. ...
That is essentially true aswell. This is what I meant when I talked about a lack of balance in regards to CO/scouts. What is needed, in my opinion, are scout ships that have the ability to pin down ships fast... and that includes enemy scout ships, too.
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Jenny Spitfire
Caldari Boryokudan Incorporated
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Posted - 2006.11.06 14:10:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Ginger Magician Edited by: Ginger Magician on 06/11/2006 13:25:50 Covert ops frigs ruined fleet combat and then they went and compounded their mistakes by introducing cruiser class equivalents.
These ships canot be killed unless they make a major error or suffer a bug.
Making ships that are basically invunerable was a huge mistake. Recently word got round that they were thinking of making a patch so that ships who were being targetted could not cloak. Mention of this nerf caused huge uproar on the forums and 20 page thread of whines and CCP were forced to retract their patch pretty **** quick.
Once carebears have a nice soft cuddly toy taking it away is like removing it from a 2 year old unfortunately. Unless covert ops ships are either removed or nerfed any form of fleet combat will continue to be as the OP described
I fully agree. Nerf cloaks! --------- Faction Warfare Begins Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! |
MOS DEF
E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2006.11.06 18:16:00 -
[22]
CO frigs are hard to catch but it is possible with a dictor. CO recons die a lot. Dictor bubble + tactical overview + drones out = one dead recon very often.
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Jenny Spitfire
Caldari Boryokudan Incorporated
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Posted - 2006.11.06 18:26:00 -
[23]
Originally by: MOS DEF CO frigs are hard to catch but it is possible with a dictor. CO recons die a lot. Dictor bubble + tactical overview + drones out = one dead recon very often.
How does the tacview help? --------- Faction Warfare Begins Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! |
Ma'Kahn
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Posted - 2006.11.07 10:58:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Ma''Kahn on 07/11/2006 10:59:39 Been reading through the info linked by you guys and I have to say it look quite promising. Finally scouting may become useful and ship combat dynamics more interesting. Even with the new scanning system in place though, fleets will still be able to avoid each other simply by warping between safespots continuously. However, at least you'll be able to keep your enemy on the run now with a surefire way to pin him down in case he doesn't move. I really hope covert ops won't be too hard to track down though. Having them as invincible as they were/are would be unfair.
I hope everything will make it into the game as planned. Expect me to come back here as soon as they roll it out
Thanks again for info.
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Noluck Ned
FATAL REVELATIONS Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.07 11:08:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Originally by: MOS DEF CO frigs are hard to catch but it is possible with a dictor. CO recons die a lot. Dictor bubble + tactical overview + drones out = one dead recon very often.
How does the tacview help?
Click on the guy before he cloaks and find out....
Drones out mwd on.....you can get em quite often unless they are fast into warp.
F4T4L is Recruiting! |
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