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Kamikaaazi
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Posted - 2006.11.10 00:12:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Miri Tirzan
Originally by: Lord Frost
Originally by: Ihar Enda ECM sucks. To let luck influence the outcome of a fight in such an extreme way is just plain stupid.
It seems every shot of your turret is luck... is it not a chance? wrecking hits are not often... damage is not consistant. ECM is another counter to someone shooting their big guns. If you don't like... use FoF... or drones. There are many counters to ECM. Quit complaining that it sucks... its a viable option to any battle. Deal with it, or leave. This isn't Unreal... if you want a shoot-em-up game... go there. CCP is leaning toward multiple setups, multiple fleets, variations in battle... no more blob gank fests. Pure DPS is no longer the 'i win'. ECM is fine... its your gamestyle that is flawed.
Gee, let me think, nope your wrong. There are no counters to ECM. Everyone all to gether... THERE IS NO COUNTER TO ECM. Which is why everyone uses it and even with the nerf it is worth using on any ships since it is totally chance based system.
Use ECCM, you got low and med slot versions. Oh what, you dont want to "waste" any of your precious slots to "useless" modules? Guess what? How much tank scorp/rook/falcon has left after filling his med slots with ECM? Oh yeah, ****loads, something between nothing and next to nothing. Its a good thing that ecm ships have one of the best damage outputs in this game... hmm, wait a sec... that doesnt sound right...
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Lord Frost
Minmatar The Crystal Method
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Posted - 2006.11.10 00:46:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Miri Tirzan
Gee, let me think, nope your wrong. There are no counters to ECM. Everyone all to gether... THERE IS NO COUNTER TO ECM. Which is why everyone uses it and even with the nerf it is worth using on any ships since it is totally chance based system.
You're in BoB and yet you think there is no counter to ECM? LOL... what the hell is ECCM for then? ROFL... has it ever occured to you that MAYBE one of the counters to an uber blaster is ECM? Oh, and what about FoF? or drones? or are those not your fav things to do? I see... since it doesn't make your gamestyle happy, it must not be an option!
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Gigi Barbagrigia
Latent Appliance Fetishists
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Posted - 2006.11.10 02:14:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Miri Tirzan I would agree but there is no counter to ECM. If there was one, could you please name what module I could mount that makes ECM NEVER WORK! There is not one. ECM is a chance based system that either is totally effective and shutdown the target or does not work. Nothing else in the game is this way, everything else has a way to either reduce the effect or cancel it out, but ECM does not have a remedy.
*confused*
Could you please name what module I could mount that makes you NEVER HIT me?
You can reduce the chance of getting jammed as you can reduce the amount of damage you take. In the long run it's the same if numbers are balanced. With longer fights that's even more so. And furthermore, you don't fit ECM because? You know, outlocking and jamming first kinda stuff.
As for various racial comments, you can fly anything you want and you can gang with anyone.
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IHaveTenFingers
Caldari ADVANCED Combat and Engineering Combined Planetary Union
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Posted - 2006.11.10 05:02:00 -
[34]
Edited by: IHaveTenFingers on 10/11/2006 05:02:12 ECM has nearly become a standard fit, so lets all think ahead and fit an eccm from now on. mmmk? ECM = Nerfed.
Oh and add race specific rank 4 skills that add 7.5% to sensor strength.
------------------------------------ My Opinions in no way reflect those of other members of ADVANCED Combat and Engineering.
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Sentinel Eeex
Caldari Two Brothers Mining Corp. Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.11.10 07:25:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Miri Tirzan
I would agree but there is no counter to ECM. If there was one, could you please name what module I could mount that makes ECM NEVER WORK! There is not one. ECM is a chance based system that either is totally effective and shutdown the target or does not work. Nothing else in the game is this way, everything else has a way to either reduce the effect or cancel it out, but ECM does not have a remedy.
Could you please name what module I could mount that makes Tracking Disruptor NEVER WORK?
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meppa
Black Omega Security The OSS
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Posted - 2006.11.10 07:47:00 -
[36]
Edited by: meppa on 10/11/2006 07:55:41 Edited by: meppa on 10/11/2006 07:48:41 Cruise missile launcher I
edit: might add couple of more
Heavy nosferatu I
Assuming certain type of flying you can add
autocannons blasters
as they play mostly with falloff range and have quite high tracking.
But i think best one module counter would be Multispectral ECM ;)
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Guano Cakes
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Posted - 2006.11.10 09:19:00 -
[37]
So nerfing ECM strength is not the solution, as your complaint will still be valid: it will still be chance based and still "completely shut down" the target once it lands.
So, what is your suggestions to make it different? Because no amount of "nerfing" it's current function will make it fair.
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Lorn Yeager
Gallente Blessed Souls
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Posted - 2006.11.10 09:38:00 -
[38]
Edited by: Lorn Yeager on 10/11/2006 09:39:22 Well.. a Jam is a Jam. you are either "hit" by ECM or you are not.
No matter what you do to change it, we will not get above this fact. Then Id rather have ECM completely removed and turn to sensor damps instead, but they work EVERYTIME and thats also a problem for a number of people.
A quick suggestion: Make ECM work like a burst. You loose lock, but there is no 20 sec jam. You can instantly relock. The ECM module however has to run for the 20 second period... like a cooldown... then it can try again. I kinda like that - but what do you think?
I read somewhere, some time ago about a suggestion to make small/medium/large versions of it. That migt also work. Begin sig: //->
Its Aloha time!
Lorn Yeager Blessed Souls
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meppa
Black Omega Security The OSS
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Posted - 2006.11.10 10:25:00 -
[39]
My current favourite solution is to remove multispecs and remove chance of jamming gallente with amarr jammer for example. So you need exactly right jammer for ship.
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Miri Tirzan
Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.11.10 10:37:00 -
[40]
Well, lets see, damps, tracking disrupters, etc. you can use a module that will off-set the effect. You may have to move closer or you may have your fire degraded. This is different from ECM where if it works, you cannot do anything but run away or take the DPS.
ECCM will change the probility of ECM working but it will not cause ECM to not work. I could mount a couple of Tracking Computers that are good for me if I am not being TD'ed but if I am will off-set alot of the TD's effects. The same for Damps. There is a counter module that will help me but if damps are used will off-set their effects.
That does not exist for ECM. For ECM I have to use modules that do nothing for me when ECM is not being used and when it is used, while it may make it harder for me to be jammed, does not stop me from being jammed.
So yeah, ECM is too powerful. There is no counter to it.
My suggested change would be that you dont loose lock with ECM. That you keep lock but your damage is degraded due to not having the fine lock to insure you hit the target. Then the off-setting modules would be damage mods that would do something for you when your not being jammed and would help off-set the effect when you are.
svetlana - "whining gets you stuff. that is why humans got to the top of the food chain and all the other animals got nerfed."
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GenePool Chlorinator
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Posted - 2006.11.10 12:43:00 -
[41]
I've seen it suggested in the past that ECCM should have benefits similar to a sensor booster.
If it helped you lock faster or at a longer range even when ECM is not in use it would be a much more viable module to fit.
That way ECM would be 'stealth nerfed' because more people could get away with fitting ECCM. I really think this solution ought to be considered.
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Slevin Kalebra
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Posted - 2006.11.10 13:00:00 -
[42]
Certainly giving the ECCM (and the weaker low slot counterpart 'Signal Amps') some secondary bonus, such as increasing sensor range and / or decreasing lock time might be a useful change.
Another idea might be that the ECCM could hold in it's 'memory' the targets you had locked prior to the ECM hitting your sensors, so that you retarget / lock the same ship(s) immediately that the ECM pulse is over - at least that way you don't have to spend 8-10 seconds relocking the targets (during which time you almost inevitably get re-jammed).
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Lord Frost
Minmatar The Crystal Method
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Posted - 2006.11.10 13:24:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Miri Tirzan Well, lets see, damps, tracking disrupters, etc. you can use a module that will off-set the effect. You may have to move closer or you may have your fire degraded. This is different from ECM where if it works, you cannot do anything but run away or take the DPS.
ECCM will change the probility of ECM working but it will not cause ECM to not work. I could mount a couple of Tracking Computers that are good for me if I am not being TD'ed but if I am will off-set alot of the TD's effects. The same for Damps. There is a counter module that will help me but if damps are used will off-set their effects.
That does not exist for ECM. For ECM I have to use modules that do nothing for me when ECM is not being used and when it is used, while it may make it harder for me to be jammed, does not stop me from being jammed.
So yeah, ECM is too powerful. There is no counter to it.
My suggested change would be that you dont loose lock with ECM. That you keep lock but your damage is degraded due to not having the fine lock to insure you hit the target. Then the off-setting modules would be damage mods that would do something for you when your not being jammed and would help off-set the effect when you are.
ECM does not render a ship useless. If you think that, then you simply can't think outside the box. Plain and simple, if someone is fitting 3 ECM to jam you... well the counter to that is 3 ECCM to not be jammed. Both are giving up the same slots... and last I remember you have the same probablity if you fit ECM. So its not like its YOU versus a world of ECM... Everyone can do it, which makes it fair. People here just don't want to fit the counters to ECM. There are several things you can do to still attack, and still defend yourself. Just as everyone fits, turrets, sheilds, boosters, and repairers... face it, you'll now have to fit ECM. Cheers to CCP for making peopel have to think abotu combat. I'm sorry you can't retain your uber tanker ganker. Counters are there, be smart and use them. So many people whine about snipers and the reality that there is NO counter to that, but yet there is if you make the effort. So frankly, I say... adapt, and make the effort.
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Bermag
Point-Zero Ratel Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.10 13:27:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Xorus ECM has been nerfed on ships not designed to be specialist ECM boats, so now there will be more call for people who actually fly things like scorps and falcons instead of people having a spare medslot and throwing in a multispec.
Oh and also relocated to the correct location :)
On paper it is, but then you have the new ECM lstrength modules or rigs it is not 50% less on non specialized ships.
And when you add enough of jammers on a single target the probability to jam become high.
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Lord Frost
Minmatar The Crystal Method
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Posted - 2006.11.10 13:35:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Lord Frost on 10/11/2006 13:39:18
Originally by: Bermag
Originally by: Xorus ECM has been nerfed on ships not designed to be specialist ECM boats, so now there will be more call for people who actually fly things like scorps and falcons instead of people having a spare medslot and throwing in a multispec.
Oh and also relocated to the correct location :)
On paper it is, but then you have the new ECM lstrength modules or rigs it is not 50% less on non specialized ships.
And when you add enough of jammers on a single target the probability to jam become high.
Keyword there... probability. Not exactly the same when it comes to your torps ripping the jammer apart. With new rigs, people will setup uber tankers and ganker... uber DPS ships... seems fair to me that they will setup uber ECM ships. They are a ship in a role, same as anyone else. For you not to lock, is their goal... yet you still have the mechanics to deal damage in other ways and even make the jammers probablity less... but do you sacrifice your setup? no... then you deserve to be jammed and die.
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Nahia Senne
Fortunis Novum
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Posted - 2006.11.10 13:56:00 -
[46]
ECCM is useless because you can just fit ECM instead and actually benefit the entire gang. to make ECCM something more than a mod nobody will bother to waste a slot on, read my sig and give it a bump.
Make ECCM viable! Give it 25% to scanning resolution! |
Khajit Smitty
Minmatar MisFunk Inc.
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Posted - 2006.11.10 14:13:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Lord Frost
It seems every shot of your turret is luck... is it not a chance? wrecking hits are not often... damage is not consistant. ECM is another counter to someone shooting their big guns. If you don't like... use FoF... or drones. There are many counters to ECM. Quit complaining that it sucks... its a viable option to any battle. Deal with it, or leave. This isn't Unreal... if you want a shoot-em-up game... go there. CCP is leaning toward multiple setups, multiple fleets, variations in battle... no more blob gank fests. Pure DPS is no longer the 'i win'. ECM is fine... its your gamestyle that is flawed.
lol, you are exceptionally funny
Yay im in a ECM whine thread.
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2006.11.10 15:04:00 -
[48]
Originally by: meppa Edited by: meppa on 10/11/2006 07:55:41 Edited by: meppa on 10/11/2006 07:48:41 Cruise missile launcher I
edit: might add couple of more
Heavy nosferatu I
Assuming certain type of flying you can add
autocannons blasters
as they play mostly with falloff range and have quite high tracking.
But i think best one module counter would be Multispectral ECM ;)
Also, add to this "smaller ships". If you use an TD in a BC vs a frig attacking you it will just laugh and continue hitting you. ECM will actually work better vs smaller targets.
Originally by: meppa My current favourite solution is to remove multispecs and remove chance of jamming gallente with amarr jammer for example. So you need exactly right jammer for ship.
I would agree. The no-brainer effecient vs all is one of the major aspects which make ECM so much stronger than all other EW.
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Zixxa
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Posted - 2006.11.10 15:31:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Nahia Senne ECCM is useless because you can just fit ECM instead and actually benefit the entire gang. to make ECCM something more than a mod nobody will bother to waste a slot on, read my sig and give it a bump.
We are speaking about kali where ECM is nerfed into useless state. And ECCM is boosted to be helpful against ECM ships and probing.
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Zixxa
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Posted - 2006.11.10 15:33:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Aramendel Also, add to this "smaller ships". If you use an TD in a BC vs a frig attacking you it will just laugh and continue hitting you. ECM will actually work better vs smaller targets.
TD on the BS? Why?
Originally by: Aramendel
Originally by: meppa My current favourite solution is to remove multispecs and remove chance of jamming gallente with amarr jammer for example. So you need exactly right jammer for ship.
I would agree. The no-brainer effecient vs all is one of the major aspects which make ECM so much stronger than all other EW.
After nerf it will be pathetical.
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2006.11.10 15:57:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Zixxa TD on the BS? Why?
Wo says anything about BSs? Cruiser vs frigs is plenty there. If a lachesis encounters a 4 man frig gang it will die fast because it's EW is ineffective vs anything faster than it. A rook will just jam all.
Originally by: Aramendel After nerf it will be pathetical.
Exept it won't be nerfed on the ECM ships. The other races EW ships do not really tank better or have better dps than these, you know?
VS the other EW systems ECM has better range and is more universally useable (no ineffective targets), yet is just as strong vs all targets as the other EW is vs their specialized targets. It's like one gun with 5 km range and bad tracking and one gun with 50 km range and very good tracking having the same dps.
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Milkminer
InterGalactic Corp.
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Posted - 2006.11.10 16:21:00 -
[52]
Personally I find ECM to be valid as I agree that guns are chance based too to a large extent so is weakens thar argument dramaticly.
BUT saying that I would also have a suggestion if rigs and new mods really do make ECM even more powerful than it currently is (although it would take away from a tank/damage setup which imo means that ship has specialised so I dont have a problem overall).
My suggestion is that each ECM mod has a between -X and -Y targets allowed. This would mean that smaller ships (normally frigs) that cant have much ECM would be weaker to larger ships etc, which is fine to me. Would also mean although its still change based its less powerful as it would take more than one mod to completly nullify someones locking ability. Obviously faction and t2 would be better and would require more -X strength to but overall it would mean that ECM would nolonger completly stop a larger ship.
Other than a complete rework of ECM though it might as well be left in its current Kali form. Afterall, Damps are going to be very common again (just like they use to be) and so sitting at range so ur untouchable will be happening even more than it is (if you can even imagin that).
Originally by: John Moscroft Goons are a renewable resource. There are no recruitment problems.
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Nahia Senne
Fortunis Novum
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Posted - 2006.11.10 16:33:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Milkminer Personally I find ECM to be valid as I agree that guns are chance based too to a large extent so is weakens thar argument dramaticly.
post number #21234 that ignores the fact guns will shoot 100's of times in one battle. ecm fires about 4 times and usually reduces the number of shots fired by enemy from 25% to 100%.
also, lets ignore the fact everyone primaries ecm boats or people who carry ecm. this is obviously because ecm is balanced. these people who primary them are just noobs wasting their time to take down these useless ecm monkeys.
Make ECCM viable! Give it 25% to scanning resolution! |
Ihar Enda
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.10 21:17:00 -
[54]
Edited by: Ihar Enda on 10/11/2006 21:17:39
Originally by: Lord Frost
It seems every shot of your turret is luck... is it not a chance? wrecking hits are not often... damage is not consistant. ECM is another counter to someone shooting their big guns. If you don't like... use FoF... or drones. There are many counters to ECM. Quit complaining that it sucks... its a viable option to any battle. Deal with it, or leave. This isn't Unreal... if you want a shoot-em-up game... go there. CCP is leaning toward multiple setups, multiple fleets, variations in battle... no more blob gank fests. Pure DPS is no longer the 'i win'. ECM is fine... its your gamestyle that is flawed.
How about we introduce a frigate-sized gun that has a chance of, let's say 5%, to score a hit of 10000 raw damage everytime it hits the target. Then you will *maybe* be able to compare the new gun, and ECM.
To sum it up - go away.
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Nahia Senne
Fortunis Novum
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Posted - 2006.11.10 21:22:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Ihar Enda How about we introduce a frigate-sized gun that has a chance of, let's say 5%, to score a hit of 10000 raw damage everytime it hits the target. Then you will *maybe* be able to compare the new gun, and ECM.
To sum it up - go away.
okay, this was the funniest post today
/signed
Make ECCM viable! Give it 25% to scanning resolution! |
xEntriq
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Posted - 2006.11.11 17:23:00 -
[56]
Originally by: EvilNate Guys have been testing ECM on the test server and it's currently worse in Kali the way things stand, than it currently is now.
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=423526
Ignore the troll
This needs to fixed ASAP, it can't go lie the way it is now.
Nate.
And thank god for that. ECM should stay on ECM ships.
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Nahia Senne
Fortunis Novum
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Posted - 2006.11.11 17:40:00 -
[57]
Originally by: xEntriq And thank god for that. ECM should stay on ECM ships.
ecm should be changed. make ecm reduce sig radius instead of breaking lock.
Make ECCM viable! Give it 25% to scanning resolution! |
Malicious Wraith
The Dark Side of the Moon Edge of Sanity
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Posted - 2006.11.11 18:17:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Xorus ECM has been nerfed on ships not designed to be specialist ECM boats, so now there will be more call for people who actually fly things like scorps and falcons instead of people having a spare medslot and throwing in a multispec.
Oh and also relocated to the correct location :)
ECM has been nerfed on *Everything!*
A rook jams like a blackbird with level 5 recon currently. ----------------------------------------
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Ergo Morte
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.11.11 18:30:00 -
[59]
Originally by: EvilNate
Originally by: Xorus ECM has been nerfed on ships not designed to be specialist ECM boats, so now there will be more call for people who actually fly things like scorps and falcons instead of people having a spare medslot and throwing in a multispec.
Oh and also relocated to the correct location :)
Have you even read the post I linked?
I specifically posted this in General Discussion so ppl could see the other post and read it. ECM is still broken, Roch running around with 3x ECM rigs on has a better chance of jamming than it currently would now.
It's broken.
Nate
AH good, so the NosEcmDomi lives. The way some poeople go on you'd swear Kali stands for Kalderi Are Leet Indeed.
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Spaja Saist
Gallente Knights of Retribution
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Posted - 2006.11.11 18:39:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Black Scorpio
Originally by: meppa Well, currently i can put ecm on amarr ships and use them quite decently. Now they say train skills for bb to use it. As for using just tracking disrupters ecm is only ew that has no real counter for it. If you get jammed you can't do anything, but with damps you can get closer and still fight, with tracking disruption you can minimize transversal and load longer range crystals.
Conclusion is that other races got effectivily nerfed in ew while caldari remains same. With all these changes that favour caldari kali should be renamed as "All hail mighty caldari". Current list is quite nice already
1. caldari gets turret ship with longest range ever, while others get range nerf 2. caldari get new nice toy as in assault missiles 3. fights last longer while shield recharge / second remains same => shields generate more hitpoints during fight which helps shield tankers. Oh, caldari shield tank best ;) 4. best form of ew gets restricted to caldari ships only
Now if rumored nos nerf goes trough, that means passive tanked friggies that use no cap for guns can work effectivily while being nossed. Guess what, that means minmatar and caldari :p
Meppa, have you EVER bothered to fit an ECCM? Surely friend, you as many other's prefer tank and damage mods.. the fact is that if you do not fit or know how to use a counter that is widely available for BOTH medium and LOW slots, it is simply your fault for failing to see the much obvious counter!
What is your problem with Caldari? Apparently you fail to see what other races have to offer... well brother.. simply open your eyes then.
for your sake I'd like to think that you invested something in liking your race, and believe me, coming from the guy you shoot at (read being blown up by Amarr ships on multiple occasions), your ships are nothing to look down on!
Could it be because Caldari have the best ships for most situations? Could it be that Caldari are the most popular race because of this? The Devs obviously have a hard on for Caldari for some reason.
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