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RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
1004
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Posted - 2015.05.13 06:07:13 -
[1] - Quote
So, the real question is: What can be done to fix this horrendous issue?
A game that provides 22+ years of skilling, should not top out at cruiser hulls. |
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
1016
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Posted - 2015.05.16 17:06:29 -
[2] - Quote
This is one of the best pilots in the game, flying one of the fastest frigates in the game. I mean, this guy can fly a ship. But guess who ruined his day in this fight? The battleship.
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?eid=26386714
I have to say, I don't like the current meta of frigates online, but most BS pilots know what it takes to kill frigates, and it can be done. I've had decent success with a duel neut Tempest, scram/web/TP/neut = blap, but lots of ships can do the job.
The problem is blobs. Even a tiny fleet of frigates and destroyers can pump out amazing DPS. By the time you kill 2 or 3 of them you're in trouble.
They killed the Drake, because at one point, a blob of them was considered OP. They should do the same to little ships. |
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
1031
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Posted - 2015.05.22 17:37:07 -
[3] - Quote
I just want to say, I've been on a BS roam where we had a mixed fleet (Kitchen Sink) of random BS. 8 to 10 of us, I can't really remember. We came across a 15 to 18 man frigate fleet with 1 RR Domi. What I do remember is, the frigates popped so fast, you couldn't call primaries. Just target a random and start shooting. Saved the Domi for last. With a couple bumps, it was all over before he made it back to the gate.
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RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
1055
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Posted - 2015.06.12 04:41:51 -
[4] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:
Frigates: cost effective platforms capable of fulfilling a variety of roles
Destroyers : Destroyers are most effective as light escorts protecting larger ships from drones, frigates, and even advanced frigates
Cruisers: Just like frigates, cruisers can fulfill a variety of roles
Battlecruisers: purely attack craft able to engage a large variety of targets and having the hardiness to survive it all. Battlecruisers are just short of a battleship in tank, and even though they deal considerably less damage output than one, they are better at hitting smaller targets
Carriers: mobile repair facility as well first response capitals
Dread: Siege
These seem like what CCP intended.
Battleships: Can tank twice as much as the typical BC, and deliver twice as much DPS. They are the largest DPS dealer in the sub-cab arena. Kill most BC with ease. Least amount of ISK per risk in capital engagements, POS warfare, System defense. Needs to be piloted/fitted by well skilled, experienced pilots. Fit ACCORDING to the engagement. Tank, tracking, small ships, large ships, neut, speed, DPS, range. All can be fit according to the fleet engagement.
All pilots that want to progress past 'cruisers online' should be able to fit a T2, well skilled BS. If a corp or alliance cannot field BS, they cannot effectively evolve to the 'next' levels of EVE.
If you are advising new players to NOT train battleships, it is bad advise. You will get them killed when it comes time to fly one. And if a whole corp of ill-skilled BS pilots undock, the results will be magnified immensely. If you haven't been in 20 or more BS fights, you are not qualified to give such advise.
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RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
1055
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Posted - 2015.06.12 07:11:04 -
[5] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote: But a battleship takes close to 100% of all damage too. Tank means nothing if you take all the damage. For example. you field 20 battleships v. 40 t3 Cruisers. T3 fleet will only take some of the damage a battleship deals. A battleship will take all of the damage a T3 deals. Can one battleship tank all of the dmage from 40 T3s? We all know none can. Will all 20 battleships be able to hit all of the T3s? We all know that they wont as the T3 can dictate the range. Your "tank" would mean nothing in a larger opposing fleet.
Fit according to the engagement is exactly why I discard scenarios in this discussion. "If they had such and such fit, they would've won." That's why the OP focused on ship/game design and not scenarios.
First off, the T3 is most likely triple the cost of the BS. But lets just say it's double the cost. 500 mill vs 250 mil. 40 vs 20 = quadruple the fleet cost. If I just killed 9 or 10 of them, the fight would be even, isk wise.
Can I get 20 BS to insta-pop T3's? Well yes I can. If they fly at close range I can tackle them, neut, web, whatever. At close range...I might kill them faster than I could target them. If they fly at long range, transversal is better for me, and they can't hard tackle my fleet. My 20 man BS fleet can field 100 drones and has maybe 60 utility slots, for neuts, damps, TP, etc. My large weapons can reach out further than their medium weapons. Their range may be my best asset.
Would I want to run into a 40 man T3 fleet? No, but I wouldn't run from it. As a pilot, would I sacrifice my BS to get T3 kills? Every day, yep I would. Just 1 would be a great trade, but 2 to 10 would be epic fun. Either way, I'm only risking 1 BS for the opportunity.
Random numbers:
Focused fire from 40 T3: 500 DPS, ROF every 4 seconds = 2000 Alpha x 40 = 80,000 Alpha My BS could take 80,000 though with any average tank. Would need to be 2 shotted at minimum.
Focused fire from 20 BS: 1000 DPS. ROF every 6 seconds = 6000 Alpha, x 20 = 120,000 Alpha. T3's be exploding.
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RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
1055
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Posted - 2015.06.12 07:56:53 -
[6] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:RavenPaine wrote:
Circumstantial
Random numbers:
Fiction
Battleship fits can be countered like any other ship's fits. If a T3 specifically fitted to counter the Battleship's, would the battleships still win?
We could both use the "counter this" and counter that" argument. Your scenario is every bit as circumstantial as mine is.
The difference is, I JUST KNOW from experience. I could take a fleet of Tempests and Typhoons out and wreak havoc on tons of fleets. I could take a kitchen sink fleet of 20 BS and there would be no 'counter' to 20 ship specific fits. I wouldn't have to take time doing maths or figuring out scenarios. I'd just need every pilot to do his thing, and do it right.
It's hard for a cruiser hull to counter 120,000 Alpha. ( 20 Artillery Tempests would do closer to 240,000 ) Unless you consider running away as a counter.
My random numbers were just so you could see the idea. I think I was generous to the T3 and conservative with the BS.
Define "win" After insurance, My BS might be a 50 million ISK loss. Tops. Nobody even insures T3, so even a T2 basic fit will be a total loss. 550 mil?
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RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
1061
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Posted - 2015.06.13 06:01:00 -
[7] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:NightmareX wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:Yes and I'd wager most of you PVP successes don't include you piloting Battleships. Give everyone a moment to check out your killboard. See how many kills you earned in the mighty T1 battleship. We aren't swinging our killboard e-peens here. We are talking about how all ships have advantages over each others in many things. Yes, Cruisers and Battlecruisers have some advantages over Battleships. But if you think Battleships doesn't have advantages over smaller ships, i'm sorry to say it but you have not understood EVE Online as far as i'm concerned. Not any that truly factor into a large part of EVE Online gameplay, they don't. I understand EVE Online very well. Battleships are at the top of damage and tank, but the design of the game makes being in a larger hull susceptible to smaller ships. It is well documented in your own killboards that battleships stand little chance of surviving against smaller ships. Q. Why would folks like you and Chainsaw Plankton come to my thread to tell me I am wrong? A. These folks are heavily invested in battleships. They like to manufacture them and sell them so they get to buy their T2/T3 cruisers. Why would people sing praises of battleships and they are their least flown ship?
Ehh... Chainsaw has only 27 losses his whole career, 16 of them are BS hulls. He has 400 kills sitting in Amarr BS and another 50 or so in other race BS. 450/16 makes him very qualified to state the facts of his experience.
NightmareX I have known of and seen since my start in EVE. He plays for PvP and has probably tried flying every ship in the game that he thought was viable. Nearly a thousand kills, with 600 of them from BS hulls. Less than 40 losses. He is also very qualified to state facts from his experience in EVE.
You have 21 fights total, and 2 confirmed kills. 2/21 says to me that you aren't qualified to make ANY PvP assumptions, or give any advice on any ship class. For you to ignore or dismiss comments that guys like this give is either severe learning issues or trolling.
I feel like this is a 15 page troll, and has no relevant information to add to the forums. A lock seems to be the best option at this point.
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RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
1061
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Posted - 2015.06.13 06:47:20 -
[8] - Quote
'MMO' is the key label here. EVE's major concept revolves around corporation structures that join alliance structures. Fleets are the direct, and intended result from that. Well organized fleets with a bunch of good pilots is some of the best fun in all of eve.
A solo battleship has just as much chance of survival as a solo Tengu or a solo Merlin or a solo *anything else*. If a solo pilots starts jumping gates in lowsec or null, he could have any number of possible engagements. He could get blobbed though , and it wouldn't matter what ship he was in. But he could run into 3 bc pilots and kill them all. A battleship would give him the best chance to do that.
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RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
1062
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Posted - 2015.06.14 05:44:38 -
[9] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:I am informing players that there are existing game mechanics that make it better to fly smaller ships. Most of the whining I have seen is from battleship supporters. I use killboard info to back up my point.
If you are so knowledgeable about game mechanics, why on earth was your ship fit like this?
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?eid=46920196
or this?
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?eid=47184851
And how could you lose a ship in .5 space fit like this?
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?eid=47184851
Because a pro mechanics guy like yourself would never undock with any of those.
Is it possible you made a mistake? Is it possible you don't have a clue how to fit a battleship? Is it possible that you aren't even skilled enough to properly fit a T1 battleship? |
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
1062
|
Posted - 2015.06.14 06:03:48 -
[10] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote: The thread is about why players should skill for something besides battleships. Not about my killboard.
NO, this thread is about YOU giving advice to players, when you have no experience to qualify that advice. You are not qualified to give that advice. It is bad advice. |
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RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
1062
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Posted - 2015.06.14 06:43:10 -
[11] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:RavenPaine wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote: The thread is about why players should skill for something besides battleships. Not about my killboard.
NO, this thread is about YOU giving advice to players, when you have no experience to qualify that advice. You are not qualified to give that advice. It is bad advice. How do you know? because I am not on video? because you think this is my only character? Everyone else's killboard says it all. Don't fly battleships.
I know because of those fits. You could have 5 characters for all I know. You might be a great miner, or a great trader, or the best freighter pilot in all of EVE. But those fits show that you have zero knowledge of BS fitting and next to nothing of PvP experience.
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RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
1067
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Posted - 2015.06.15 18:53:04 -
[12] - Quote
I've decided to flip my point of view. I am convinced and I now see the truth. I'd like to have my battleships get a serious buff.
Warp speed-200% increase Base speed- 300% increase Weapons tracking- 300% increase More slots More HP More drones More range for every module mounted
I can't believe I didn't get on board sooner... |
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
1069
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Posted - 2015.06.16 02:18:02 -
[13] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:Its strange how in this thread no one can give good reasons to fly a battleship. It dissolves into a bunch of personal attack. They ask for proof, I tell them to look at klllboards. They ask for reasons, I tell them because smaller ships have a game designed advantage. To top it all off, most of them fly battleships sometimes for PVE.
All my original points stand.
It's already been established that your original points are lies, ignorance, and hogwash. You are not qualified to give advice on ships and fittings.
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RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
1069
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Posted - 2015.06.16 02:35:21 -
[14] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:RavenPaine wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:Its strange how in this thread no one can give good reasons to fly a battleship. It dissolves into a bunch of personal attack. They ask for proof, I tell them to look at klllboards. They ask for reasons, I tell them because smaller ships have a game designed advantage. To top it all off, most of them fly battleships sometimes for PVE.
All my original points stand. It's already been established that your original points are lies, ignorance, and hogwash. You are not qualified to give advice on ships and fittings. Yeah what part? Who established it? Are you the grand EVE Online "qualifier" now? Get over yourself. Learn to be more objective and stay on topic.
Your very first sentence states that battleships are the most risk to fly. That is a lie. (Just 1 of many)
Every poster who has posted battleship experience has established that you are ignorant to the qualities of battleships. Your killboard confirms it.
I'm not the grand EVE qualifier. But I can certainly say that YOU are NOT qualified.
I'm not really all about myself. I am 100% objective on all ships in EVE. The fact that you are not qualified IS on topic.
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RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
1071
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Posted - 2015.06.16 07:02:14 -
[15] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:RavenPaine wrote:
Your very first sentence states that battleships are the most risk to fly. That is a lie. (Just 1 of many)
Some objective gameplay reasons: 1. least likely to survive a gatecamp 2. Take full damage in fleets which makes them useless concerning tank RavenPaine wrote: Every poster who has posted battleship experience has established that you are ignorant to the qualities of battleships. Your killboard confirms it.
this is not my only character and, I don't get my jollies by posting to some 3rd party site about my video game activities. RavenPaine wrote: I'm not the grand EVE qualifier. But I can certainly say that YOU are NOT qualified.
Please! You are worse off than everyone else because, you're too close minded to listen to truth. RavenPaine wrote: I'm not really all about myself. I am 100% objective on all ships in EVE. The fact that you are not qualified IS on topic.
Just like I said before, you've got nothing to argue with. I fear you are getting too emotional to continue peacefully. So this is my last response to your comments.
Most likely to survive a gate camp.... That's how bait works silly. Taking full damage is the objective sometimes. It keeps the prey from jumping the gate.
Battleclinic gets your killmails auto-posted from eve. I know you have other characters.. every subscription gets 3 characters.
I'm worse than everyone else because I call your bullshit? Blunt, I admit, but not close minded. You are the guy with the blinders on. You are the guy that ignores video proof of achievement. VIDEO. PROOF. A pretty powerful tool that you seem to dismiss at will. Organizations like the FBI and CIA generally take video proof very seriously.
I have another character too. Between the two of them I have about 600 BS kills. That is plenty to argue with. And you misjudge my emotions. This stuff makes my day. It's fun to pick you apart. |
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
1073
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Posted - 2015.06.17 17:23:15 -
[16] - Quote
Icarius wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:Its strange how in this thread no one can give good reasons to fly a battleship. It dissolves into a bunch of personal attack. They ask for proof, I tell them to look at klllboards. They ask for reasons, I tell them because smaller ships have a game designed advantage. To top it all off, most of them fly battleships sometimes for PVE.
All my original points stand. I am alone I need a ship I have to tank a full spawn of navy faction npcs while i am killng someone in ... whatever you want except capitals. I have to tank 900dps from the navy faction, dual damp, dual web, dual heavy neutras + the dps of my victim. Average time on battlefield is 1 minute. I want to survive too, it s not a suicide Can you help me? (you are not allowed to check killboards) thx You may need time to de-agress so you can dock or jump a gate too.
I would recommend a.. (thinking for .5 seconds) Battleship!!
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RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
1077
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Posted - 2015.06.25 01:44:39 -
[17] - Quote
Sounds like a very well thought out plan. Total balance and fair play for all.
I would still fly a battle ship though. With names like 'Typhoon', 'Armageddon', 'Megathron', etc, it would still feel like I won |
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