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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
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Serathu
Forum Moderator Interstellar Services Department
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Posted - 2006.11.15 16:35:00 -
[1]
There has been a lot of discussion regarding the changing of some Tech level 1 blueprints to Tech level 2, which has since been locked due to unconstructive posting.
This thread is for further replies on this topic. All posts *must* be constructive, within the forum rules and avoid trolling, flaming, spamming and discussion of moderation. Failure to do this will result in your post being removed and possibly a forum warning or ban.
If a dev wishes to answer this post they will, however the forum moderators cannot do anything to expedite the process. Asking for that here will not help.
Now, back on topic please!
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Eldo Davip
Forum Moderator Interstellar Services Department
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Posted - 2006.11.15 16:37:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Dark Shikari A good solution to the problem... definitely better than just locking them all and not having any discussion.
Dude... what you have like a friggin camping button or something? ___
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Sovy Kurosei
Amarr Therianthropic Technologies
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Posted - 2006.11.15 16:37:00 -
[3]
I'd like to ask why the developers chose to do this instead of just seeding the tech one BPOs and putting their tech two counterparts in the lottery. It doesn't seem precedented. ___________________
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Dark Shikari
Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2006.11.15 16:37:00 -
[4]
A good solution to the problem... definitely better than just locking them all and not having any discussion.
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Old Geeza
The Retirement Home
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Posted - 2006.11.15 16:38:00 -
[5]
My thoughts: They should've been upgraded to T2 BPCs or waited until Kali before upgrading them to prevent the unfair advantage.
I also want to know if CCP will be seeding 20 of each upgraded T2 BPO through the lottery system for those who weren't lucky enough to have their ISK machine upgraded to an even better ISK machine.
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Old Geeza
The Retirement Home
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Posted - 2006.11.15 16:39:00 -
[6]
Also, sticky?
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Dark Shikari
Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2006.11.15 16:41:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Eldo Davip
Originally by: Dark Shikari A good solution to the problem... definitely better than just locking them all and not having any discussion.
Dude... what you have like a friggin camping button or something?
I'm obviously a bot.
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Skyy
Caldari Veni-Vidi-Vici
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Posted - 2006.11.15 16:53:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Skyy on 15/11/2006 16:59:52 1. I'd like to know why the devs felt to protect a t1 bpo investment which has player set prices... compared to protecting the mass players bases investment in long hours, days, months, and years of research time and effort.
2. Were these t1 bpos ever noted to become t2?
3. Is there going to be a fix or atleast a look into changing this issue?
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Laendra
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Posted - 2006.11.15 16:53:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Dark Shikari I'm obviously a bot.
Ban stick for admitting to being a third party tool.
Question for the Mods. Are we supposed to re-post the information from the locked topic, since we are not allowed to link or refer to locked topics?
There are a lot of options that could have been implemented. For that matter, a player focus group, consisting of BPO owners and non-BPO owners alike, could have been established on how best to release the T1 and T2 versions of the BPOs. However, the option that CCP chose, without notice, or explanation, is unacceptable (obviously). ------------------- |
Jurskjeld
Minmatar Pator Tech School
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Posted - 2006.11.15 16:54:00 -
[10]
Well, me, I just think it was unfair. It's a nice way to freshen up things, but the execution could have been done better. I mean, it's not as if any Rifter BPO out there will become a Jaguar BPO, is there? Basically I wouldn't do a thing unto one BPO that I wouldn't do unto another BPO.... ;) --- I tank armour. REAL men tank structure REAL men tank pod! REAL Minmatar tank skin. |
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fuze
Gallente Chosen Path Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.15 16:55:00 -
[11]
IMHO they should have been seeded by means of lottery so that those people who are into R&D for a long time would get a fair chance of winning. Besides then nobody could whine about people knowing this in advance and used it for [5]Profit.
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Silver Lady
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2006.11.15 16:55:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Skyy 1. I'd like to know why the devs felt to protect a t1 bpo investment which has player set prices... compared to protecting the mass players bases investment in long hours, days, month, and years of time and work effort.
2. Were these t1 bpos ever noted to become t2?
3. Is there going to be a fix or atleast a look into changing this issue?
To late to change anything now, these bpos have been sold on/traded valued as a T2 bpo, they cant change anything now without further screwing other players.
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Serathu
Forum Moderator Interstellar Services Department
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Posted - 2006.11.15 16:58:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Laendra
Originally by: Dark Shikari I'm obviously a bot.
Ban stick for admitting to being a third party tool.
Question for the Mods. Are we supposed to re-post the information from the locked topic, since we are not allowed to link or refer to locked topics?
There are a lot of options that could have been implemented. For that matter, a player focus group, consisting of BPO owners and non-BPO owners alike, could have been established on how best to release the T1 and T2 versions of the BPOs. However, the option that CCP chose, without notice, or explanation, is unacceptable (obviously).
For the purposes of this thread only, I will allow reposting of *constructive* information from the other thread. Wherever possible, please summarise the content and avoid duplicating ideas.
Thanks!
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Dark Shikari
Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2006.11.15 16:58:00 -
[14]
On topic, I think this isn't a very cut-and-dry issue.
You see, Expander Is and SBA Is entered into the game through the T2 lottery. They traded at similar prices to T2 BPOs of similar caliber. So it would only make sense to turn them into T2 BPOs.
On the other hand, turning them into T2 BPOs only makes the rich richer, which is not what should be done.
So there's really an argument each way.
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.11.15 16:59:00 -
[15]
Edited by: James Lyrus on 15/11/2006 17:01:32
Originally by: fuze IMHO they should have been seeded by means of lottery so that those people who are into R&D for a long time would get a fair chance of winning. Besides then nobody could whine about people knowing this in advance and used it for [5]Profit.
The T1 BPOs in question, as I understand it _were_ seeded through the lottery.
Given that T1 BPOs _have_ to have been seeded in order to allow for invention to happen, what would you suggest for the people who scored a T1 BPO for their RPs?
IMO this is a reasonable solution. Bump up the 'existing' lottery drops, and then seed them. Whilst it may seem unfair on those RP grinding to aim for cargo expander IIs, (frankly shield booster amp IIs are a little less in demand, but still nice) it would also be unfair on the people who had spent their RPs on a T1 blueprint to suddenly devalue them.
Since it wasn't announced, it didn't suddenly become a mass grab, and IMO those BPs probably ended up in the hands of the 'right' people - e.g. those that were prepared to make good use of them, rather than directly wanting to hit the 'win button' and get a collossal cash cow, which the Cargo Exp II is going to be.
Don't forget, your RPs are still going to be _directly_ useful in invention, or reselling datacores when Kali comes.
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Frater Perdurabo
The Ancient Illuminated Seers of Bavaria
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Posted - 2006.11.15 17:02:00 -
[16]
Much emphasis seems to be being put on the t1 bpo's that magically became t2, but what about those poor micro cap battery people that had there rather useful bpo changed to a completely useless and unprofitable t1 small cap battery bpo, sucks to be them eh? One suggestion was that ccp are going to remove all 'micro' things from the game. Thing is some of them are rather useful and relatively well used. (The cap battery mentioned, also the micro shield extender is useful if youve not got much cpu/grid left)
Coming back to the t1 to t2 thing, did this also happen with the cloaking devices? (apologies if its been stated in the locked thread but i diddnt read it all) ----------------------------------- Please note that my response to this thread is probably a result of boredom, and its very likely that i dont care, but am posting in an attempt to wind someone up |
Hertford
Ars Caelestis Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.11.15 17:05:00 -
[17]
The original thread contained a post that convinced me about just seeding T2 BPOs straight onto the market. It would result in T2 production being limited not by the BPOs, but by the supply of moon minerals/morphite/reactions/etc.
Yes, the T2 BPO holders would get the brown end of the stick, but then they've had their cash cow for months and months. Obviously, it's not representative of the entire population of T2 BPO holders, but the original thread did have a T2 BPO holder agreeing on this idea.
Keep the lottery running, for sure though, and seed BPOs through that on a regular basis. I don't think people will complain much when every week they might win a T2 BPO, even if it's on the market for only 100mil ISK.
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Dark Shikari
Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2006.11.15 17:06:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Hertford The original thread contained a post that convinced me about just seeding T2 BPOs straight onto the market. It would result in T2 production being limited not by the BPOs, but by the supply of moon minerals/morphite/reactions/etc.
CCP has said this isn't going to happen.
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Old Geeza
The Retirement Home
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Posted - 2006.11.15 17:08:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Originally by: Hertford The original thread contained a post that convinced me about just seeding T2 BPOs straight onto the market. It would result in T2 production being limited not by the BPOs, but by the supply of moon minerals/morphite/reactions/etc.
CCP has said this isn't going to happen.
Which is a **** shame
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Laendra
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Posted - 2006.11.15 17:09:00 -
[20]
A very workable solution to fix this...
-Convert the existing T1 BPOs back to their basic BPOs. -Convert the T2 BPOs back to their T1 BPOs. -Give the T1 BPO owners 5 max run (300 units each) BPCs of the T2 versions of their components. -Release the T1 BPOs to the market with Revelations. -Release the T2 BPOs in the lottery starting 1/1/2007.
The reasoning for this, is that the T1 BPOs had run their course, and prices had stabilized to an acceptable level, albeit still higher than if the BPOs were on the market. The BPCs would allow the owners to capitalize on the devaluation of their BPOs until the T2 versions dropped in the lottery. ------------------- |
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Hertford
Ars Caelestis Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.11.15 17:09:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Originally by: Hertford The original thread contained a post that convinced me about just seeding T2 BPOs straight onto the market. It would result in T2 production being limited not by the BPOs, but by the supply of moon minerals/morphite/reactions/etc.
CCP has said this isn't going to happen.
Got a linky? Must have missed that blinding piece of head-in-sand-ness from CCP...
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Dark Shikari
Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2006.11.15 17:10:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Hertford
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Originally by: Hertford The original thread contained a post that convinced me about just seeding T2 BPOs straight onto the market. It would result in T2 production being limited not by the BPOs, but by the supply of moon minerals/morphite/reactions/etc.
CCP has said this isn't going to happen.
Got a linky? Must have missed that blinding piece of head-in-sand-ness from CCP...
CCP has said that they are continuing the research lottery system with Kali and aren't seeding them on market. Its in a devblog somewhere.
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Awesome new space games site, from the editor of E-ON! |
Laendra
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Posted - 2006.11.15 17:10:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Dark Shikari CCP has said this isn't going to happen.
You have to admit, though, that CCP has said a lot of things that haven't come to pass... ------------------- |
Skyy
Caldari Veni-Vidi-Vici
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Posted - 2006.11.15 17:11:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Hertford The original thread contained a post that convinced me about just seeding T2 BPOs straight onto the market. It would result in T2 production being limited not by the BPOs, but by the supply of moon minerals/morphite/reactions/etc.
Yes, the T2 BPO holders would get the brown end of the stick, but then they've had their cash cow for months and months. Obviously, it's not representative of the entire population of T2 BPO holders, but the original thread did have a T2 BPO holder agreeing on this idea.
Keep the lottery running, for sure though, and seed BPOs through that on a regular basis. I don't think people will complain much when every week they might win a T2 BPO, even if it's on the market for only 100mil ISK.
Agreed... I think eventually CCP has to look into moving all t2 bpos to limted TIME bpos... not limited runs. Give them 2-3 months to build as many as they can. This will do two things... (1)Make people produce t2 instead of purposly limiting supply to create demand and (2)Share the wealth and create more enthusiam with more lotteries.
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Hertford
Ars Caelestis Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.11.15 17:12:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Originally by: Hertford
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Originally by: Hertford The original thread contained a post that convinced me about just seeding T2 BPOs straight onto the market. It would result in T2 production being limited not by the BPOs, but by the supply of moon minerals/morphite/reactions/etc.
CCP has said this isn't going to happen.
Got a linky? Must have missed that blinding piece of head-in-sand-ness from CCP...
CCP has said that they are continuing the research lottery system with Kali and aren't seeding them on market. Its in a devblog somewhere.
Cheers for that, you forum-posting-machine you :)
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Laendra
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Posted - 2006.11.15 17:15:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Skyy Agreed... I think eventually CCP has to look into moving all t2 bpos to limted TIME bpos... not limited runs. Give them 2-3 months to build as many as they can. This will do two things... (1)Make people produce t2 instead of purposly limiting supply to create demand and (2)Share the wealth and create more enthusiam with more lotteries.
I discussed an alternative to the lottery and the current version of invention here. I think it is a much better solution than the only alternative, which is to release to the market after a 3-6 month exclusive patent period. ------------------- |
Spy4Hire
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Posted - 2006.11.15 17:16:00 -
[27]
What I find annoying is not that they upgraded the prints to T2 (since they did come to their owners through the lottery system) is that they have not seeded the T1 counterparts.
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Miri Tirzan
Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.11.15 17:30:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Dark Shikari On topic, I think this isn't a very cut-and-dry issue.
You see, Expander Is and SBA Is entered into the game through the T2 lottery. They traded at similar prices to T2 BPOs of similar caliber. So it would only make sense to turn them into T2 BPOs.
On the other hand, turning them into T2 BPOs only makes the rich richer, which is not what should be done.
So there's really an argument each way.
Actually no, CEIs were the first R&D lottery BPO but SBAs came from special missions back in '04. Otherwise I agree with what your saying.
Pretty much back in '04 CCP messed up with three things. First, during the big mission give away, they handed out:
Amarr - Armor Explosive hardner T1 Minnie - Miner IIs T2 Gal - EANMs T1 Cal - SBAs T1
They should have all been T2 or none T2 but they were doing this to offsets Technel doing to Miner 2's what are being done to CR2s now.
The second thing they did wrong was put CE1s in R&D lottery instead of the CE2s. Finally, they did not seed all the T1 BPOs. Well, now that reverse engineering (invention) is coming into the game, they have to seed the T1 BPOs or it will not work.
To be fair, the people, and I am not one of them that got the CE1s should have gotten CE2s back then. They got scr3wed over.
Now CCP, 2 years later, is fixing all the error made back then. It may not seem fair to you, but they won the lottery or they did the missions.
As it is, the SBA2s are not going to be that great since there are so many of them in the game.
But, I sure wish I had won one of the CE2s.
svetlana - "whining gets you stuff. that is why humans got to the top of the food chain and all the other animals got nerfed."
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Serapis Aote
TBC
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Posted - 2006.11.15 17:31:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Hertford The original thread contained a post that convinced me about just seeding T2 BPOs straight onto the market. It would result in T2 production being limited not by the BPOs, but by the supply of moon minerals/morphite/reactions/etc.
Yes, the T2 BPO holders would get the brown end of the stick, but then they've had their cash cow for months and months. Obviously, it's not representative of the entire population of T2 BPO holders, but the original thread did have a T2 BPO holder agreeing on this idea.
Keep the lottery running, for sure though, and seed BPOs through that on a regular basis. I don't think people will complain much when every week they might win a T2 BPO, even if it's on the market for only 100mil ISK.
I also saw that idea.
It seemed a bit fair. Treat BPO's more like patents. And just admit the patent has worn off at this point. Future tech 3 or new tech 2 BPO's would be seeded throught the lottery. CCP determines how long the monopoly lasts. 6 months a year. But after that time, the BPO gets seeded to the market.
After more thought. I think they should increase across the board the need for reactions and moon minerals needed for tech 2 production to keep costs high.
As it stands now the economy is inefficient, due to limited competition. This limited competition also depresses the true value of moon minerals. It would be nice to have POS be more of a money maker seeing that it takes a lot of time to run them.
The main problem i have with the way it was done, is it reinforces a bad long term gang mechanic. And it shafts people who reasonably believed that certain tech 2 BPO's would be seeded through the lottery, just as they had before. either way someone is getting shafted. But shafting the t1 BPO owners wouldnt have been as bad. None them reasonably believed their tech 1 would eventually be tranformed by magic into tech 2. And many probably reasonably believed that tech1 BPO's would eventually be released for their products.
I dont see any of what i am saying happing unfortunately. Most people will not abandon something they have worked long and hard on (invention) for something else.
reasons for thinking tech2 as market BPO's would be good at this point. 1. Most tech 2 BPO producers should by now have made back their investment and made some profit 2. Allows more players to get into the industrial side of the game, both with production (BPO and manufacturing) and supply (POS).
I agree with many when they say that the goal should not be to completely bring down tech 2 prices all the way, but this can be accomplished just as much by creating a demand for the source materials. As the demand for those rise, so will the prices of both those and the final product.
It gives the oppurtunity for a more realistic business dynamic.
Also kudos for reopening the discussion. Lets keep it constructive.
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Dark Shikari
Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2006.11.15 17:34:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Miri Tirzan
Originally by: Dark Shikari On topic, I think this isn't a very cut-and-dry issue.
You see, Expander Is and SBA Is entered into the game through the T2 lottery. They traded at similar prices to T2 BPOs of similar caliber. So it would only make sense to turn them into T2 BPOs.
On the other hand, turning them into T2 BPOs only makes the rich richer, which is not what should be done.
So there's really an argument each way.
Actually no, CEIs were the first R&D lottery BPO but SBAs came from special missions back in '04. Otherwise I agree with what your saying.
Ah, thanks for the correction. I wasn't around back then, so wouldn't know
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Awesome new space games site, from the editor of E-ON! |
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