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DarkElf
Caldari Euphoria Released
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Posted - 2006.11.16 15:19:00 -
[1]
Ok i had a rather heated discussion recently with a large group of self proclaimed carebears. The discussion was regarding griefers.
Now, my opinion was that a griefer is somebody who specifically targets an individual or corp and constantly causes them grief for the sole reason of being a git, they agreed with this.
Now, the conversation came up because they were talking about entering low sec in a barge and getting popped at the gate before even getting chance to mine. i thought it was quite funny and would have done it myself given the chance but they said it was griefing because the guy didn't even pick up the can, just blew him up for "no reason". See i don't see that as griefing because he will have enjoyed it probably making that his main reason for doing it. so if he enjoyed it, being a git wasn't his sole reason just a bonus
Now if that is being a griefer then i guess i'll just have to accept being one.
My question is, is there an official definition of a 'griefer' or is this just a dumb term used by carebears to slate pvp'ers that like me pretty much kill anything that moves (noob ships not included)because it's our type of fun in eve.
DE
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Major Shake
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Posted - 2006.11.16 15:24:00 -
[2]
Griefing would be going after a specific person/corp/alliance for no reason. So all alliance warfare is griefing
But who cares what a carebear thinks?
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Heikki
Gallente Wreckless Abandon
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Posted - 2006.11.16 15:53:00 -
[3]
If the only likely consequences of an act are harm to the other party, and at most only enjoyment to you, then it is griefing.
Thus a solo pirate shooting at other players without any intent to loot/gain ISK would be good example of griefing.
Then again, player next to him might doing exatcly the same might not be a griefer: his alliance really needs to keep this area unpopulated, so he has his orders not to let anyone through..
-Lasse With His Humble Opinions
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Taoir
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Posted - 2006.11.16 15:58:00 -
[4]
I've always defined griefing as doing something to annoy, anger, inconvenience, etc another player for no gain of your own.
Like players that scan through 0.0 and pop barges purely because it might be the easiest and fastest way to destroy ISK from others.
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Vizgoth
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Posted - 2006.11.16 16:13:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Taoir I've always defined griefing as doing something to annoy, anger, inconvenience, etc another player for no gain of your own.
Like players that scan through 0.0 and pop barges purely because it might be the easiest and fastest way to destroy ISK from others.
No that is strategic not griefing. Enemies or those hired by enemies fly to the opposing 0.0 territory stay cloaked in systems and wait for miners to enter belts they kill them and then fly away to safespot and cloak. What this does is prevent the enemies from mining and making money so they cant pay their sponsoring alliance. There is no griefing in 0.0. Everything is for a reason.
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DarkElf
Caldari Euphoria Released
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Posted - 2006.11.16 16:18:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Taoir I've always defined griefing as doing something to annoy, anger, inconvenience, etc another player for no gain of your own.
Like players that scan through 0.0 and pop barges purely because it might be the easiest and fastest way to destroy ISK from others.
See in my opinion that's not griefing, that's piracy.
Originally by: Heikki If the only likely consequences of an act are harm to the other party, and at most only enjoyment to you, then it is griefing.
I would agree with the first bit but if they do enjoy it then why should they be griefing that person. the person may experience grief but i don't personally think that person deserves that title. i have been called many things in my eve life, most of which i can't repeat here but for some reason this is the only one that bugs me
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tiller
Beer and Kebabs Pirate Coalition
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Posted - 2006.11.16 16:29:00 -
[7]
Edited by: tiller on 16/11/2006 16:30:35
Originally by: Taoir I've always defined griefing as doing something to annoy, anger, inconvenience, etc another player for no gain of your own.
Like players that scan through 0.0 and pop barges purely because it might be the easiest and fastest way to destroy ISK from others.
No, thats called fun, it's fun to destroy that which you don't own. Of course sometimes loot survives and pays the bills...
No doubt someone will get on their high horse here shouting about honor and morals. Well I don't give a dam, my game style is to destroy everything I can with total disrespect for peoples property and own game style.
I'm a pirate, and evil to the bone
eidt: of course in RL I run a kitten sanctuary
Click me for Pirate Coalition Website of Gankage |
YouGonna EatThat
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Posted - 2006.11.16 16:34:00 -
[8]
Griefplay is defined pretty well in the FAQ,
Quote: 12.11 What is grief play?
A grief player, or "griefer," is a player who devotes much of his time to making othersĘ lives miserable, in a large part deriving his enjoyment of the game from these activities. Grief tactics are the mechanics a griefer will utilize to antagonize other players.
This should not be confused with standard conflict that might arise between two players. At our discretion, players who are found to be consistently maliciously interfering with the game experience for others may receive a warning, temporary suspension or permanent banning of his account.
as is Harassment:
Quote: 12.12 What is harassment?
Harassment is the blatant abuse heaped upon one player by another above and beyond valid game play interaction. This offense often includes the use of derogatory, hateful, slanderous or sexual comments as well as insults that pertain to religion, gender, nationality or ethnicity. CCP has a zero tolerance for such behavior, as stated in our Terms of Service and violators may be immediately banned.
Players should note that EVE emphasizes player interaction, including non-consensual combat between players. Being attacked by another player, within the parameters of normal gameplay, is not harassment.
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DarkElf
Caldari Euphoria Released
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Posted - 2006.11.16 16:49:00 -
[9]
aha. i was looking for those definitions but couldn't find them. The thing that gets me is if someone says that by blowing up someone's ship for no real reason therefore making them a griefer by ccp defination then are they really saying that getting blown up makes their life miserable? if so they need to find a life or go and play the sims where they can live happy in comfort. imo blowing someone up should in no way make their lives miserable therefore no matter the reason there are not participating in 'grief play'
DE
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Marcus TheMartin
Gallente CURSED LEGION OF DOOM Pirate Coalition
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Posted - 2006.11.16 17:02:00 -
[10]
Originally by: tiller Edited by: tiller on 16/11/2006 16:30:35
Originally by: Taoir I've always defined griefing as doing something to annoy, anger, inconvenience, etc another player for no gain of your own.
Like players that scan through 0.0 and pop barges purely because it might be the easiest and fastest way to destroy ISK from others.
No, thats called fun, it's fun to destroy that which you don't own. Of course sometimes loot survives and pays the bills...
No doubt someone will get on their high horse here shouting about honor and morals. Well I don't give a dam, my game style is to destroy everything I can with total disrespect for peoples property and own game style.
I'm a pirate, and evil to the bone
eidt: of course in RL I run a kitten sanctuary
Better than you mercellesly killing kittens (NEDM anyone?) and making a carebear sanctuarys
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Donna Darko
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Posted - 2006.11.16 17:10:00 -
[11]
From my interpretation of that the first part of 12.11, it sounds like every pirate and mercenary is a griever. Any tech 2 BPO owner too, monopoles even more so. Miners could become grievers too, depending on whether they do anything to chase other miners from their belt or not. 0-hour noob killers in starter systems are grievers. Basically, all of us are grievers.
The second part is like an afterthought: oh yeah, this is a Player versus Player game (PVP does not involve only fighting), so there are also valid reasons for doing that.
That one-line basically makes absolutely anything in game an acceptable action... except harassment. Stories. |
Dark Shikari
Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2006.11.16 17:32:00 -
[12]
Griefing means doing something for the primary purpose of causing someone grief.
It does NOT mean, however much people insist, anything that causes someone grief. It is only griefing if it was done TO CAUSE GRIEF without any other real goal.
-[23] Member-
Awesome new space games site, from the editor of E-ON! |
Awox
Finite Horizon The Red Skull
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Posted - 2006.11.16 17:38:00 -
[13]
Griefing is podding someone in high-sec with your cheap dessy... just because. *snip* Discussing moderation/ linking to flamebait is a no-no. Read the forum rules before reposting. If you have any questions, email us at [email protected] Tirg |
Sin Fae
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Posted - 2006.11.16 17:54:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Sin Fae on 16/11/2006 17:55:40 The nice thing with PvP games, is you can "get back" at the person that is greiving, if you are willing to pay the price.
This guy was following me around for 4 systems shouting in local how I was this nasty "pirate" (imagine that!) etc etc. That could probably be considered harassment.
However, darwinism to the rescue, he attempted to hit my punisher in hi-sec. After he was wtfpwned by CONCORD I asked him if he had an updated clone, he stated no, and then I podded him.
Did I have any reason to pod him besides enjoyment? No. The cost was right (around 300k and a sec hit).
Moral of the story? Griefing does not apply when encountering morons.
~Sin~
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mazzilliu
Caldari Sniggerdly
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Posted - 2006.11.16 18:09:00 -
[15]
when were fighting and it looks like we need to retreat, the first thing we do before we warp off is blow up the cans
whatever it is, greifing is fun.
1000% awesome guide to logging out |
Joop
The Really Awesome Players
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Posted - 2006.11.16 19:33:00 -
[16]
Originally by: tiller
No doubt someone will get on their high horse here shouting about honor and morals. Well I don't give a dam, my game style is to destroy everything I can with total disrespect for peoples property and own game style.
Yeahhh
OFT
Originally by: tiller
my game style is to destroy everything I can with total disrespect for peoples property and own game style.
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tiller
Beer and Kebabs Pirate Coalition
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Posted - 2006.11.16 19:41:00 -
[17]
Originally by: mazzilliu when were fighting and it looks like we need to retreat, the first thing we do before we warp off is blow up the cans
whatever it is, greifing is fun.
Now thats a cool idea... It's never crossed my mind tbh. Mind you, I'm usually the one sitting in pod.
Click me for Pirate Coalition Website of Gankage |
Ozzie Asrail
FATAL REVELATIONS Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.16 20:05:00 -
[18]
Originally by: mazzilliu when were fighting and it looks like we need to retreat, the first thing we do before we warp off is blow up the cans
whatever it is, greifing is fun.
Thats hardly griefing imho. Very common in allaince warfare. Grab what loot you can or pop the cans if you can't since every t2 425 denied to the enemy is an extra couple of spawns ratting for those poor suckers
Greifing is when someone takes it beyond a game and sets out to mae it as unenjoyable as possible for a person or small group of people. -----
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Donna Darko
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Posted - 2006.11.16 20:37:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Ozzie Asrail ...Very common in allaince warfare...
Everything can be justified in this game. I will pod you in empire, knowing that you have no updated clone so that you retire from the fight, or fear me in the future and pay me ransoms or just avoid me, since you have proved to be an annoying person. I will follow you for 20 jumps, smacking you so I keep your interest and provoke you to fight me, hopefully just as my friends are ready to jump you too. Stories. |
Synapse Archae
Amarr Solarflare Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2006.11.16 20:52:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Heikki If the only likely consequences of an act are harm to the other party, and at most only enjoyment to you, then it is griefing.
Thus a solo pirate shooting at other players without any intent to loot/gain ISK would be good example of griefing.
Then again, player next to him might doing exatcly the same might not be a griefer: his alliance really needs to keep this area unpopulated, so he has his orders not to let anyone through..
-Lasse With His Humble Opinions
Surprisingly, QFT.
This is one of the most popular definitions of griefer, agreed upon by most all carebears. PVPers should know it an understand it.
---------------------------------------------
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=349194&page=1Redo Fleets[/ur |
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DarkElf
Caldari Euphoria Released
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Posted - 2006.11.17 14:00:00 -
[21]
But i pod as many ppl as i can. it doesn't benefit me really. most of them are just carebears, not war targets or anything so not that bothered about causing them isk loss to win a war but i get enjoyment out of that little squish sound.
Is doing that griefing then?
DE
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Geli Tetro
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Posted - 2006.11.17 14:14:00 -
[22]
There is no griefing in Eve. What you are all describing is the gameplay and not griefing.
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Kresh Vladir
Caldari Murder-Death-Kill Blood Raiders Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.17 19:25:00 -
[23]
going out of your own way to **** sum1 off
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Gamesguy
Amarr Reunited O X I D E
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Posted - 2006.11.18 03:59:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Synapse Archae
Originally by: Heikki If the only likely consequences of an act are harm to the other party, and at most only enjoyment to you, then it is griefing.
Thus a solo pirate shooting at other players without any intent to loot/gain ISK would be good example of griefing.
Then again, player next to him might doing exatcly the same might not be a griefer: his alliance really needs to keep this area unpopulated, so he has his orders not to let anyone through..
-Lasse With His Humble Opinions
Surprisingly, QFT.
This is one of the most popular definitions of griefer, agreed upon by most all carebears. PVPers should know it an understand it.
So the NPCs that destroy your ships are griefing? Afterall they never pick up the loot and gain nothing from endlessly orbiting in a belt/gate.
A person who blows up anyone s/he can and not pick up the loot is called a murderer in RL. Its called roleplaying.
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Kesslan Osefice
Panther's Paw Industries Ltd
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Posted - 2006.11.18 04:34:00 -
[25]
Greifing is abit of a mixed bag really. Everyone ultimately has their own definition, and true griefers very rarely see themselves as such.
To me personally it is generally some one who simply attacks others for no real reason or gain (even if it's 'fun' for said person it's at the expense of others). Now, it's one thing if it's a war, or soveriegn territory.
Granted some wardecs have technically just been another form of griefing but thats sort of a seperate argument in a way. Ultimately in a war just about anything goes as it hurts the other side. Destruction of ships, pods etc. Though one is generally better served by looting cans, some times you might not be able to and personally I -would- try to pop the cans if I was being forced off a fight. Denial of assets to the enemy afterall.
As for claimed territory in 0.0 space, well you can quite clearly see the area is clamed by one party or another. And it's generally not hard to find out what kind of rules such powers run with. Be it a fairly open zone (Such as ISS teritory) or horrifically xenophobic so to speak.
It's not allways easy to tell them appart at times, when legitimate pirates might pop your ship as they consider it easier than ransoming, and then not loot your pod due to there being anything really worth the cargo space. I mean I certainly woudlnt even move my ship if all your can had in it was a few unnamed fittings or some such.
As for podding right afterwards without attempting ransom, well.. some cases it might really -be- RP. THough this is rarely the case in reality, and is more often used purely as an excuse.
In the end it's an inevitable reality of EVE. One doesnt have to like it, but if you really cant stand it, well then dont play EVE. EVE is most certainly not for the 'faint of heart'.
If one happens to actually run into an 'honourable' pirate or opponent, all the better, their a rare breed of humanity to be honest.
In the end if your sole purpose in destroying some one's ship and pod is purely for the fun of it or to cause misery to others, then yes, I would say that makes you a griefer. Simply because in the end that's really what the term means. If your the type that does it for a potential quick pirate ala piracy way, well, you'll likely get lumped in with that term even if the ultimate motivation really is monetary gain, though if that was really the case one would likely leave most newbies alone as simply not even worth the expendature of munitions.
Afterall a newbie isnt likely to drop anything good in the way of fittings, and likely even the salvage value of those fittings wont pay for the missiles, projectile or hybrid rounds expended. Of course if your using lasers or drones, it too is a proffit (if meager one) since the lenses (on t1) and drones dont actually use up ammo.
Yay we finally have a forum: http://pantherspaw.freehostia.com/ |
Scoundrelus
Finite Horizon The Red Skull
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Posted - 2006.11.18 05:50:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Major Shake
But who cares what a carebear thinks?
Think you hit the nail on the head there... =============================================== And Scoundrelus walked the Forums once again, and all was turned to flame... |
Mr Havelock
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Posted - 2006.11.18 05:54:00 -
[27]
so if I take my wonderful Blaster Harpy out to low-sec and find a small group of one month old players in tech 1 frigs,mining cruisers and/or retrievers am I a griefer for killing them? I don't see it as griefing, i see it as practice. It certainly seems like everyone is wearing a shirt that says "Don't shoot, i'm a noob" into lowsec and whines when the people who habitually patrol the area or *gasp* even live there, end up using their 4 million gunnery skillpoints to wtfpwn their new cruiser that they just trained up to get. Eve is harsh, no need to cry about it. Regarding getting blown up in a barge at a gate, it's not always about looting the can, it's about area denial. People make claims, even in low-sec. Sometimes there's a nice anchored can stating this fact, other times it's a face full of antimatter that gets that point across.
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Protunia
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.11.18 05:56:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Taoir I've always defined griefing as doing something to annoy, anger, inconvenience, etc another player for no gain of your own.
Like players that scan through 0.0 and pop barges purely because it might be the easiest and fastest way to destroy ISK from others.
To me thats not griefing thats making sure other people stay down and your on top which is part of the game.
I would say pure griefing would be following some one wether in game or with eve mail and harrassing them over an extended period of time.
Other than that all is fair in this game as far as i can tell the object is to win. Be it by killing someone or stealing or what ever else your sinister self can come up with. My Character Stats |
Kesslan Osefice
Panther's Paw Industries Ltd
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Posted - 2006.11.18 06:11:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Mr Havelock so if I take my wonderful Blaster Harpy out to low-sec and find a small group of one month old players in tech 1 frigs,mining cruisers and/or retrievers am I a griefer for killing them? I don't see it as griefing, i see it as practice. It certainly seems like everyone is wearing a shirt that says "Don't shoot, i'm a noob" into lowsec and whines when the people who habitually patrol the area or *gasp* even live there, end up using their 4 million gunnery skillpoints to wtfpwn their new cruiser that they just trained up to get. Eve is harsh, no need to cry about it. Regarding getting blown up in a barge at a gate, it's not always about looting the can, it's about area denial. People make claims, even in low-sec. Sometimes there's a nice anchored can stating this fact, other times it's a face full of antimatter that gets that point across.
Aye and staking a claim in a lowsec zone is fair enough. Though on the matter of just blowing up some newbies mining in lowsec as practice.. practice for what? Blowing up more newbies? I'd hardly call them practice, a small chance for proffit from any dropped fittings/ore maybe. But if your skills and ships are vastly superior your not likely to be at much if any risk at all.
Of course that isnt to say they might not have some trap setup and if it's an older group of players, they might well have some other tricks up their sleve. In which case yes, it could well provide an actual challenge.
To me griefers, pirates, mercs etc are just a fact of life in EVE, and while some folk might not agree with my definitions of what a griefer is, well thats fine. I dont agree with what alot of griefers and pirates term carebears (Such as no doubt some would lable me) as I'm quite willing to PVP. I just try to avoid it as I know most of the time I'm not only outskilled, but outgunned as I cant fit T2 weaponry, and I cant use T2 ships... yet.
Yay we finally have a forum: http://pantherspaw.freehostia.com/ |
duckk
Gallente Bastage Incorporated
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Posted - 2006.11.18 06:30:00 -
[30]
Hello. My name is duckk. I'm a griefer [from crowd "Hello duckk"].
It has been 6 hours since my last shuttle kill [mild applause].
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