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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 3 post(s)
Merin Ryskin Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.18 23:14:00 - [91] Originally by: Zatch For the whiners: Alright, if you're going to complain about the kinetic damage bonus, complain about the Caracal too. Fine. I want 5% rate of fire on the Caracal too. And on the Kestrel, Hawk, and Crow. Happy? Unfortunately those ships are not in development right now, so the odds of getting a change are much lower. And the Caracal especially is a smaller, much cheaper ship. So having less flexibility and dps at least makes some sense.
kalath1032	Posted - 2006.11.18 23:15:00 - [92] Originally by: Merin Ryskin Just to be clear, the idea that removing missile hardpoints from the Ferox is at all a boost to the Drake is just laughably stupid, and not the kind of thing we should be seeing from a so-called professional developer. The comparison to the Ferox just highlights how bad the Drake is, when a dedicated missile boat is only marginally better than a RAIL ship at using missiles. Changes to the Ferox are NOT the solution. All that would accomplish is going from two medicore ships to one mediocre ship and one awful one. ============================= That said, the solution is simple: 7 launchers. 5% rate of fire. 10% missile velocity. Listen to your players for once. We DO NOT WANT another high-tank ship with pathetic damage and limited usefulness in PvP. We DO NOT WANT another "amazing mission running ship." NPCing and missions SUCK. Give us a **** T1 PvP ship other than the Raven. It's just stupid that Caldari characters can't even fly their own race's ships in PvP. What your players want is a high-damage battlecruiser that demands respect as soon as it enters the battle. Cut the tank if you have to, we didn't want 5% resists anyway. ================================= If we absolutely HAVE to settle for a crippled Drake, it needs +500 grid so it can actually use those high slots. NOS and rails take far too much grid for the Drake in its current form. Cutting the missile firepower is one thing, cutting the missile firepower and leaving nothing to replace it is just wrong. A ship that has to fly around with empty high slots is just wrong. spot on!
Mastin Dragonfly Amarr	Posted - 2006.11.18 23:15:00 - [93] Originally by: Tuxford Even so I bet Amarrians would love to be able to take a 25% damage drop and do explosive damage. Yeah, but we're just desperate...
Taran Blake De Re Metallica	Posted - 2006.11.18 23:23:00 - [94] Originally by: Tuxford We can always remove some launcher slots from the ferox if that boosts the drake for you. Drake is fine. Kinetic damage is fine. Spouting ** like "kinetic damage sucks" is just bull** and you know it. Even so I bet Amarrians would love to be able to take a 25% damage drop and do explosive damage. The ship is fine and if you can't make it work its not the ship that sucks. Way to go with the extortion threat Tux ... "Shut up or we'll make the Ferox even crappier than it is already!"
HankMurphy Pelennor Swarm Eternal Rangers of Terror	Posted - 2006.11.18 23:27:00 - [95] Originally by: Merin Ryskin Just to be clear, the idea that removing missile hardpoints from the Ferox is at all a boost to the Drake is just laughably stupid, and not the kind of thing we should be seeing from a so-called professional developer. The comparison to the Ferox just highlights how bad the Drake is, when a dedicated missile boat is only marginally better than a RAIL ship at using missiles. Changes to the Ferox are NOT the solution. All that would accomplish is going from two medicore ships to one mediocre ship and one awful one. ============================= That said, the solution is simple: 7 launchers. 5% rate of fire. 10% missile velocity. Listen to your players for once. We DO NOT WANT another high-tank ship with pathetic damage and limited usefulness in PvP. We DO NOT WANT another "amazing mission running ship." NPCing and missions SUCK. Give us a ** T1 PvP ship other than the Raven. It's just stupid that Caldari characters can't even fly their own race's ships in PvP. What your players want is a high-damage battlecruiser that demands respect as soon as it enters the battle. Cut the tank if you have to, we didn't want 5% resists anyway. ================================= If we absolutely HAVE to settle for a crippled Drake, it needs +500 grid so it can actually use those high slots. NOS and rails take far too much grid for the Drake in its current form. Cutting the missile firepower is one thing, cutting the missile firepower and leaving nothing to replace it is just wrong. A ship that has to fly around with empty high slots is just wrong. i think he was sarcastically suggesting that ppl stfu. he's not actually going to take launchers of the Ferox. you know, the whole "i'll turn this car around right now!" move. Cant blame him, its one thing to discuss the changes, its another to scream and rant and foam at the mouth and DEMAND like you and the ppl that quote you and write "/signed" and "QFT" the only customer out there and you some how know more about teh evolution of this game than the ppl that brought it into existence. they have spent 3 years of their lives keeping an incredibly complicated machine running. thats everything from maintenance to development to preserving mechanics and the overall game. you should expect them to get a little defensive when ppl start thinking they not only know better, but that their 15$ a month means they are the chairmen of the board. agree, disagree and discuss the game. i'm not a fanboy, i critisize stuff often.... but dont confuse that with thinking you know a ** thing about the big picture cause you probably dont.
HankMurphy Pelennor Swarm Eternal Rangers of Terror	Posted - 2006.11.18 23:28:00 - [96] not that all that was directed towards you Merin, but holy crap i think ppl have got ape **** crazy on the forums. Whiners on berserker mode!
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation The Corporation Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.18 23:49:00 - [97] While I do agree that the resistance bonus is, most likely, at the heart of the Drake's problem (essentially, giving a missile ship a tanking bonus is a lot more generous than giving a turret ship the same bonus due to cap, and so on) I must say that the kinetic missile damage bonus is, by large, mostly psychological. The game can be reformed so that a straight missile damage bonus of 5% would have exactly the same effect, but I don't think anyone would complain then. Changing the resistance bonus to missile velocity is a gem in this thread that is otherwise covered in piles of refuse about perceived unfairness of a kinetic missile damage bonus. Originally by: HankMurphy not that all that was directed towards you Merin, but holy crap i think ppl have got ape **** crazy on the forums. Whiners on berserker mode! Let's wait until it wears off and they get winded... err.. I've been playing NWN2 too much. - EVE is sick.
Penix Schwarzzenheimer	Posted - 2006.11.18 23:54:00 - [98] I used to think highly of the CCP team. Now I've learned that Tuxford is a ***** to the entire Eve community and can't be bothered to take input from those who actually play and pay for the game... Sigh.
Keta Min Pre-nerfed Tactics	Posted - 2006.11.18 23:57:00 - [99] Originally by: Penix Schwarzzenheimer I used to think highly of the CCP team. Now I've learned that Tuxford is a ***** to the entire Eve community and can't be bothered to take input from those who actually play and pay for the game... Sigh. you will notice that devs often take input but not when it is obviously clueless and plainly incorrect like most of the whining.
Taran Blake De Re Metallica	Posted - 2006.11.19 00:00:00 - [100] Edited by: Taran Blake on 19/11/2006 00:00:20 The core of this problem is that there is now virtually nothing to distinguish the Drake from the Ferox. Much like the new tier 3 battleships for anything but the Caldari. The reply to this observation fromt Tux is to petualantly threaten to nerf the Ferox as well, an already mediocre ship.

Flamewave Scorn. Sani Khal'Vecna	Posted - 2006.11.19 00:13:00 - [101] Originally by: Taran Blake Edited by: Taran Blake on 19/11/2006 00:00:20 The core of this problem is that there is now virtually nothing to distinguish the Drake from the Ferox. Much like the new tier 3 battleships for anything but the Caldari. The reply to this observation fromt Tux is to petualantly threaten to nerf the Ferox as well, an already mediocre ship. Painfully mediocre, I might add. What most people are looking for is a mini-Raven, I think. It feels like what should be done with the Drake is to: * Give it a ROF bonus. * Give it back the 7th turret (optional). * Remove the resistance bonus in place of a velocity bonus. * Reduce the range of HAMs, especially Javelin, in accordance with the velocity bonus. * Make it have to choose between good tank and good gank, with gank being the obvious choice. Caldari have so few tech 1 ships that are good for PVP. Nobody wants to farm missions all day. The only other option is to train for another race and that shouldn't be necessary in a well-balanced game. So make the Tier 2 battlecruisers like it was said they would be: gank before tank.
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.19 00:28:00 - [102] This thread should be locked for trolling. Not just for players trolling other players- Tux is getting a beating here. It is not, in my opinion, acceptable behavior for a person of any maturity, sense, or intelligence to say to another person "You're stupid, you suck!" "I hate you, you're an incompetent ** up" and "Put that guy on a leash". I don't care how bloody angry you are about the virtual space ship that you never had (has always been a ship-in-development) not being invincible anymore, it's childish immature trolling. I had some sympathy before- I thought the Drake might have deserved a RoF bonus over kinetic (althouth both are, in my opinion, pretty good). Now I think "bugger them, let them have what they're given". I obviously don't matter- but if I think that, how do you think Tux (the guy designing the **ed thing) feels? You're probably just putting the guy off doing anything. I'm impressed Tux has managed to keep his cool as long as he has, and I don't blame him for blowing his top in this thread. All that said, I don't aggree with all the current ship builds in Kali, new and old. The Hype still needs work, as does the Myr. Abaddon needs an overhaul too, and the Maelstrom still needs poking before it's perfect. But yopu're not going to get anything by ranting and flaming the guy. /end rant. -----------------------------------------------
Risien Drogonne	Posted - 2006.11.19 00:37:00 - [103] Originally by: Flamewave Painfully mediocre, I might add. What most people are looking for is a mini-Raven, I think. It feels like what should be done with the Drake is to: * Give it a ROF bonus. * Give it back the 7th turret (optional). * Remove the resistance bonus in place of a velocity bonus. * Reduce the range of HAMs, especially Javelin, in accordance with the velocity bonus. * Make it have to choose between good tank and good gank, with gank being the obvious choice. Caldari have so few tech 1 ships that are good for PVP. Nobody wants to farm missions all day. The only other option is to train for another race and that shouldn't be necessary in a well-balanced game. So make the Tier 2 battlecruisers like it was said they would be: gank before tank. Oh yah, great idea. Let's pretend that the drake is the only ship in the entire game that will ever have a use for HAMs and nerf the missiles themselves around a fictitious bonus that you want to put on the drake, thus ruining the missile for any other ship. Yah, that'll happen. That'd be like giving the dominix a 1000% bonus to control range and making drone control range 5km to balance it.
Flamewave Scorn. Sani Khal'Vecna	Posted - 2006.11.19 01:01:00 - [104] Originally by: Risien Drogonne Originally by: Flamewave Painfully mediocre, I might add. What most people are looking for is a mini-Raven, I think. It feels like what should be done with the Drake is to: * Give it a ROF bonus. * Give it back the 7th turret (optional). * Remove the resistance bonus in place of a velocity bonus. * Reduce the range of HAMs, especially Javelin, in accordance with the velocity bonus. * Make it have to choose between good tank and good gank, with gank being the obvious choice. Caldari have so few tech 1 ships that are good for PVP. Nobody wants to farm missions all day. The only other option is to train for another race and that shouldn't be necessary in a well-balanced game. So make the Tier 2 battlecruisers like it was said they would be: gank before tank. Oh yah, great idea. Let's pretend that the drake is the only ship in the entire game that will ever have a use for HAMs and nerf the missiles themselves around a fictitious bonus that you want to put on the drake, thus ruining the missile for any other ship. Yah, that'll happen. That'd be like giving the dominix a 1000% bonus to control range and making drone control range 5km to balance it. Fictitious bonus? You mean the velocity bonus isn't already in the game? Other than the Drake, Nighthawk, Cerb and Caracal, what other ships are going to use HAMs? Cerb gets a flight time bonus and the Nighthawk is having its precision bonus changed to... I forget, a velocity bonus or something. Forgive me for not recalling. If you're referring to minmatar ships, autocannons will be in range anyway (such as on the Hurricane; similar to fitting rockets on an autocannon frigate) and artillery would most likely use the regular heavy missiles. So please specify what, exactly, you refer to - I may have overlooked something.
Aki Yamato	Posted - 2006.11.19 01:13:00 - [105] Yhaaa cerberus with range of 227km .. Same speed, explosiv raduis nad speed ad standart HM ... Everyone is crazy but im the plane. BIG GUN BIG FUTURE
Denrace Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2006.11.19 01:20:00 - [106] Where's TomB when you need him? Tom? TOM? ________________________________________
Risien Drogonne	Posted - 2006.11.19 01:36:00 - [107] Originally by: Flamewave Fictitious bonus? You mean the velocity bonus isn't already in the game? Other than the Drake, Nighthawk, Cerb and Caracal, what other ships are going to use HAMs? Cerb gets a flight time bonus and the Nighthawk is having its precision bonus changed to... I forget, a velocity bonus or something. Forgive me for not recalling. If you're referring to minmatar ships, autocannons will be in range anyway (such as on the Hurricane; similar to fitting rockets on an autocannon frigate) and artillery would most likely use the regular heavy missiles. So please specify what, exactly, you refer to - I may have overlooked something. I mean fictitious as in it's not on the drake atm. As for ships that will use HAMs... Geeze, just take a look at the ships that already use heavy missiles. There are a lot of them and they're in every race. That's why your suggestion was so far off the mark. TONS of cruisers and BCs will use HAMs. So nerfing HAMs so they're only useable on caldari ships would be silly indeed.
Dahak2150	Posted - 2006.11.19 01:49:00 - [108] Ok, since the 25% racial damage type bonus sucks, then we'll need to change several ships. Inquisitor Succubus Purifier Nemesis Hound Manticore Breacher Kestrel Caracal Cerberus Malediction etc. Or you could be happy you get a boost to a relatively balanced damage type instead of EM or explosive. If you're on IE, pretend this is transparent while you get a better browser.
Aki Yamato	Posted - 2006.11.19 01:51:00 - [109] Originally by: Risien Drogonne Edited by: Risien Drogonne on 18/11/2006 22:16:58 Edited by: Risien Drogonne on 18/11/2006 22:07:44 My drake: 6x heavy assault launcher II, 1x med nos 1x AB II, 1x 20k scram, 2x large shield extender II, 2x invuln field II 2x BCS II, 2x PDS II 3x Core defence field extender DPS: 412 Shields: 25,048 Resists: all above 60% Near 100% immunity to NOS, no need to worry about transversal, hits out to 80 kilometers. Results? Pwnage. This ship is STILL overpowered but is closer to balanced now than it was before. Woot ? 412 DPS at 80km with Jav missiles ? There is something teribly wrong with your math, so please stop spreading sutch desinformation. BIG GUN BIG FUTURE
Risien Drogonne	Posted - 2006.11.19 02:19:00 - [110] Edited by: Risien Drogonne on 19/11/2006 02:27:31 Originally by: Aki Yamato Edited by: Aki Yamato on 19/11/2006 02:12:14 Originally by: Risien Drogonne Edited by: Risien Drogonne on 18/11/2006 22:16:58 Edited by: Risien Drogonne on 18/11/2006 22:07:44 My drake: 6x heavy assault launcher II, 1x med nos 1x AB II, 1x 20k scram, 2x large shield extender II, 2x invuln field II 2x BCS II, 2x PDS II 3x Core defence field extender DPS: 412 Shields: 25,048 Resists: all above 60% Near 100% immunity to NOS, no need to worry about transversal, hits out to 80 kilometers. Results? Pwnage. This ship is STILL overpowered but is closer to balanced now than it was before. Woot ? 412 DPS at 80km with Jav missiles ? There is something teribly wrong with your math, so please stop spreading sutch desinformation. BTW o wonder how can you pwn wit that little fact that rage missiles (witch can do 400 DPS at short range) your capacotor recharge rate is something over 30 minutes and even the invu filed suck it to zero in some time. I used a combination of jav hams and rage hams depending on how far my target was away from me. My base dmg with each launcher = 215 My RoF with each launcher 3.12 215 x 6 = 1290 1290 / 3.12 = 413.6dps 5,625 speed x 18 sec flight time = 101,250km That's all javelin HAMs. Don't you think there might be a reason Tuxford says this ship isn't gimped? Hmm? If you actually got ingame and tested this thing like I did, you'd see my numbers are real and your whines are fantasy. And FYI, when I did use rage HAMs, the NOS and the natural regen kept up with the cap long enough to kill the target every time. This is the difference between paper theorycraft (you) and actual testing (me).

Gorion Wassenar Caldari Tsurokigaarai Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.11.19 02:32:00 - [111] Originally by: Tuxford We can always remove some launcher slots from the Ferox if that boosts the Drake for you. Drake is fine. Kinetic damage is fine. Spouting ** like "kinetic damage sucks" is just bull and you know it. Even so I bet Amarrians would love to be able to take a 25% damage drop and do explosive damage. The ship is fine and if you can't make it work its not the ship that sucks. ----------- Freaking Typhoon does get a bonus to half its weapon system, admittedly its a good bonus but don't even try to compare a 5% rate of fire bonus on 4 launcher slots to a 5% kinetic damage on 6. YOU ARE NOT RESTRICTED TO USE 1 DAMAGE TYPE. Its simple as that you CAN use another. You get bonus to 1 but you CAN use any ***** damage type you want. I was gonna reply to the rest but tbh I'm way to busy to argue on the forums. I would like to point out the Moa and Ferox as a prime examples of Caldari ships that are awful to begin with. I have yet to see Moa's on the prowl for PvP and the ones that do are very rare. As for the Ferox, other then a nice tank... well... thats about all it does. Crappy rail platform that preforms better as a missile boat. Need I say more? Also, threatening to hit the Ferox with the bat some more to make the Drake look better in comparison has the same logic as crippling other marathon runners legs to make you look better in comparison. Yes you'll do better, doesn't mean its right. As for the Typhoon getting a ROF bonus to "only" half its weapons, well thats the same number of launchers on the tier 1 Scorpion so in effect it is a better missile ship then the Scorpion in addition to the rest of its other weapons. Tough the Scorpion is a ECM ship. The problem I see with being restricted to Kinetic is that having the bonus for only one damage type means that unless we use Kinetic, the ship basically has only one bonus while the others have 2. As for threatening the playerbase with possible Nerfs I can see why you were not (allowed?) at Fanfest. ------------------ CEO of TKI
Keta Min Pre-nerfed Tactics	Posted - 2006.11.19 02:38:00 - [112] Originally by: Gorion Wassenar Originally by: Tuxford We can always remove some launcher slots from the Ferox if that boosts the Drake for you. Drake is fine. Kinetic damage is fine. Spouting ** like "kinetic damage sucks" is just bull and you know it. Even so I bet Amarrians would love to be able to take a 25% damage drop and do explosive damage. The ship is fine and if you can't make it work its not the ship that sucks. ----------- Freaking Typhoon does get a bonus to half its weapon system, admittedly its a good bonus but don't even try to compare a 5% rate of fire bonus on 4 launcher slots to a 5% kinetic damage on 6. YOU ARE NOT RESTRICTED TO USE 1 DAMAGE TYPE. Its simple as that you CAN use another. You get bonus to 1 but you CAN use any ***** damage type you want. I was gonna reply to the rest but tbh I'm way to busy to argue on the forums. I would like to point out the Moa and Ferox as a prime examples of Caldari ships that are awful to begin with. I have yet to see Moa's on the prowl for PvP and the ones that do are very rare. As for the Ferox, other then a nice tank... well... thats about all it does. Crappy rail platform that preforms better as a missile boat. Need I say more? Also, threatening to hit the Ferox with the bat some more to make the Drake look better in comparison has the same logic as crippling other marathon runners legs to make you look better in comparison. Yes you'll do better, doesn't mean its right. As for the Typhoon getting a ROF bonus to "only" half its weapons, well thats the same number of launchers on the tier 1 Scorpion so in effect it is a better missile ship then the Scorpion in addition to the rest of its other weapons. Tough the Scorpion is a ECM ship. The problem I see with being restricted to Kinetic is that having the bonus for only one damage type means that unless we use Kinetic, the ship basically has only one bonus while the others have 2. As for threatening the playerbase with possible Nerfs I can see why you were not (allowed?) at Fanfest. losing the bonus is the penalty for using other dmg types than your racial which is kinetic which is a great thing to be capable of. you should just be happy that raven's bonus ended up to be rof and not +5% kin.
Risien Drogonne	Posted - 2006.11.19 02:48:00 - [113] Originally by: Gorion Wassenar I would like to point out the Moa and Ferox as a prime examples of Caldari ships that are awful to begin with. I have yet to see Moa's on the prowl for PvP and the ones that do are very rare. As for the Ferox, other then a nice tank... well... thats about all it does. Crappy rail platform that preforms better as a missile boat. Need I say more? I find myself asking how you'd even know that given that I have yet to meet any ferox pilots who bothered to train railguns?
Gut Punch Gallente The Revenant	Posted - 2006.11.19 02:49:00 - [114] Edited by: Gut Punch on 19/11/2006 02:51:58 Originally by: Patch86 This thread should be locked for trolling. Not just for players trolling other players- Tux is getting a beating here. It is not, in my opinion, acceptable behavior for a person of any maturity, sense, or intelligence to say to another person "You're stupid, you suck!" "I hate you, you're an incompetent ** up" and "Put that guy on a leash". I don't care how bloody angry you are about the virtual space ship that you never had (has always been a ship-in-development) not being invincible anymore, it's childish immature trolling. I had some sympathy before- I thought the Drake might have deserved a RoF bonus over kinetic (althouth both are, in my opinion, pretty good). Now I think "bugger them, let them have what they're given". I obviously don't matter- but if I think that, how do you think Tux (the guy designing the **ed thing) feels? You're probably just putting the guy off doing anything. I'm impressed Tux has managed to keep his cool as long as he has, and I don't blame him for blowing his top in this thread. All that said, I don't aggree with all the current ship builds in Kali, new and old. The Hype still needs work, as does the Myr. Abaddon needs an overhaul too, and the Maelstrom still needs poking before it's perfect. But yopu're not going to get anything by ranting and flaming the guy. /end rant. I say let the devs defend the path they want take the game. Too many MMOs I've played in the past have suddenly gone south when the devs stopped defending their positions and just did what they wanted. No communication from leads to lots of upset forums. And I don't think dev blogs count as communication because there needs to be a discussion, not just a dev post and some forum comments. There needs to be dialog between the devs and the people who pay. That said, I think the Drake nerf was approperate. Too many people do not think outside the "box". And I think Tux made that point earlier. Gut Punch The Revenant
Gorion Wassenar Caldari Tsurokigaarai Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.11.19 02:50:00 - [115] I think Nikolai Novalari the rail afficianado who has almost all his rail/gunning skills maxed won't even touch the Ferox with a 10' pole as a rail ship as pretty good proof. ------------------ CEO of TKI
Gorion Wassenar Caldari Tsurokigaarai Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.11.19 02:52:00 - [116] Originally by: Keta Min You should just be happy that raven's bonus ended up to be rof and not +5% kin. A lot of Caldari ships used to have 5% ROF. Its been slowly changing to 5% Kinetic as time has gone on. ------------------ CEO of TKI
Dixon Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.19 02:57:00 - [117] Originally by: Gorion Wassenar Its been slowly changing to 5% Kinetic as time has gone on. How long has this time been going on? Is there any way to stop it? - - - - - - I have no strong feelings one way or the other...
Nathanial Victor	Posted - 2006.11.19 02:58:00 - [118] Originally by: Gorion Wassenar Originally by: Keta Min You should just be happy that raven's bonus ended up to be rof and not +5% kin. A lot of Caldari ships used to have 5% ROF. Its been slowly changing to 5% Kinetic as time has gone on. this isn't the conspiracy you are looking for. there are no ship bonus's
Risien Drogonne	Posted - 2006.11.19 03:01:00 - [119] Originally by: Gorion Wassenar I think Nikolai Novalari the rail afficianado who has almost all his rail/gunning skills maxed won't even touch the Ferox with a 10' pole as a rail ship as pretty good proof. Never heard of him.
Vendrin Caldari APEX Unlimited Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.11.19 03:07:00 - [120] What a joke Tux. As if the Ferox is unbalanced. You just overnerfed the Drake. either give it back the 7th launcher or let it keep the rof bonus. The complaint's weren't about it's damage they were about the fact that it had such a good tank. The caldari already have a good tank bc, we want a good gank bc, so get rid of the shield resistance bonus, and let the tier two battlecruisers be what YOU said they would be, damage dealers. _____________________________________ APEX Unlimited is recruiting. Join channel APEXCOM for information!



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