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Kione Keikira
Sleepless Guardians Unreachable
13
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Posted - 2015.06.04 18:57:09 -
[1] - Quote
Utility highs are a big factor when fitting a Battleship, and some ships such as the Abaddon, Rokh and Raven Navy Issue do not have any highs spare for a neut / smartbomb which is pretty much required in small gang. 8 turret syndrome also doesn't allow further balancing to add highslots without reducing the damage output ( unless you add a damage bonus ).
My suggestion is to rescale the battleship turrets ( and maybe cruiser ones ) to take up less slots, so instead of 6/7 being the normal amount it would end up being around 4. This allows potential balance changes to add highslots if necessary without having to change the bonuses of a ship. Turrets would increase in price to keep the cost of fitting effectively the same as well as rebalanced in damage to keep the outputs near what they were.
Another advantage to this is Marauders and some pirate ships don't need an ugly 100%+ damage role bonus.
---
Onto the Missile boat fitting problems.
Now usually when fitting a ship, the long range version of a turret would cost more fitting resources than fitting a short range one, however this is not the case for torpedoes and cruise missiles. As a consequence it becomes far harder to fit a PvP capable missile BS with torpedoes due to the increased requirement for PG due to neuts / cap boosters, but there isn't enough of it. The Golem suffers from this and the Raven too, but most of the time you just go for RHMLs instead because of the much smaller PG and CPU requirements.
Torpedos and cruise missiles need their fitting resources to be swapped and tweaked a little, and maybe reduce the PG requirements on HAM launchers too. Rockets and Lightmissiles are fine.
Master of being misunderstood.
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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1075
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Posted - 2015.06.04 19:17:53 -
[2] - Quote
Run a 3% power grid implant like everyone else and forget about the fitting problems. It's just that easy.
If you want 2 neuts on a rokh then fit 6 guns and 2 neuts. It's just that easy.
I think what you are asking for is to have a BS that gets current damage amount but only uses 4 high slots. You then want to reduce cpu/grid requirements so you can add some nuets or smartbombs. That would be a really big buff to certain BS while others get passed over. You asking for a deliberately unbalanced buff to a small group of BS.
No |
Christopher Mabata
The Interstellar Manipulation Consortium
387
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Posted - 2015.06.04 20:18:54 -
[3] - Quote
Part of ship balancing is making trade-offs for what you want, plenty of battleships have a utility highslot, some dont, thats called variety. Make your choices with whats available, weve made it work for a decade, we'll keep making it work.
GÖú Theory-Crafter GÖú Free Agent GÖú Immortal Space Pirate GÖú "Better the Devil you Know than the devil you don't" -Observing and dismantling F&I Discussion Threads since 2013Gäó
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Celthric Kanerian
Ascendance Of New Eden Workers Trade Federation
313
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Posted - 2015.06.04 20:36:07 -
[4] - Quote
The luxury of have additional high slots so you only need 4 turrets is one of the luxuries of ships like Marauders. They have 4 turrets with a fancy damage bonus. |
Haatakan Reppola
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
19
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Posted - 2015.06.04 21:07:30 -
[5] - Quote
Abaddon 10 effective turrets Apocalypse 11 effective turrets Armageddon 5 unbonused missiles/turrets + 2 utility high (drone/cap warfare ship)
Raven 8 effective launchers + 1 utility high Rokh 8 effective guns Scorpion 4 unbonused guns/missiles + 1 utility high (ECM ship)
Hyperion 9 effective turrets + utility high Megathron 9.33 effective turrets Dominix 6 unbonused guns (drone ship)
Tempest 10 effective turrets + 2 utility high Maelstrom 10.67 effective turrets Typhoon 8 effective launchers (or 6 unbonused guns) + 1 utility
Each race have atleast 1 Battleship with utility high, and for the ships we can compare they give up 0.3 effective gun for each utility (Hyperion vs Megathron and Tempest vs Maelstrom)
If anything Amarr should have a gun battleship with utility high (armageddon dont count as its a drone/ewar ship) |
Kione Keikira
Sleepless Guardians Unreachable
13
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Posted - 2015.06.04 21:15:06 -
[6] - Quote
Christopher Mabata wrote:Part of ship balancing is making trade-offs for what you want, plenty of battleships have a utility highslot, some dont, thats called variety. Make your choices with whats available, weve made it work for a decade, we'll keep making it work.
Some don't, that's called being useless outside of blobs. Being able to apply cap pressure or have the ability to push drones off with smarties is vitally important. There's a reason why Raven is flown solo significantly more than the Rokh or the Abaddon. If you don't have any utility you're useless without a fleet behind you.
The lack of utility highs doesn't add variety at all, not sure what you're trying to get at there.
Serendipity Lost wrote:If you want 2 neuts on a Rokh then fit 6 guns and 2 neuts. It's just that easy.
As for having only 6 turrets and 2 neuts on a Rokh, a Hyperion without any magstabs can easily surpass your DPS. The 3% powergrid implant isn't enough when you're left with 2k PG with just the Torpedo launchers fit, which is the case on the RNI.
I'm not suggesting to give the Rokh a ton of utility highs, I'm suggesting that it actually has space for them in the future ( it really does need 1, same with all the other 8 turret ships ) without being given a generic damage bonus which don't really add much into the game.
It'd be nice if you guys actually gave constructive feedback, rather than just slapping a comment that pretty much just says "I like this" or "I don't like this" and a barely useful shallow reasoning instead of trying to build on the idea or giving substantial reasons why it's a dumb idea. You've also completely neglected the issue with Torpedo launchers which is rather irritating although I should probably have posted it as a different topic.
Master of being misunderstood.
8 Turret Syndrome
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Kione Keikira
Sleepless Guardians Unreachable
13
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Posted - 2015.06.04 21:18:15 -
[7] - Quote
Haatakan Reppola wrote:Abaddon 10 effective turrets Apocalypse 11 effective turrets Armageddon 5 unbonused missiles/turrets + 2 utility high (drone/cap warfare ship)
Raven 8 effective launchers + 1 utility high Rokh 8 effective guns Scorpion 4 unbonused guns/missiles + 1 utility high (ECM ship)
Hyperion 9 effective turrets + utility high Megathron 9.33 effective turrets Dominix 6 unbonused guns (drone ship)
Tempest 10 effective turrets + 2 utility high Maelstrom 10.67 effective turrets Typhoon 8 effective launchers (or 6 unbonused guns) + 1 utility
Each race have atleast 1 Battleship with utility high, and for the ships we can compare they give up 0.3 effective gun for each utility (Hyperion vs Megathron and Tempest vs Maelstrom)
If anything Amarr should have a gun battleship with utility high (armageddon dont count as its a drone/ewar ship)
I think there shouldn't be a Battleship without a utility high, it's just too important not to have. Definitely agree with Amarr getting one, they need one with utility highs badly. If there were more options for utility highs in the future this only becomes a bigger problem.
Master of being misunderstood.
8 Turret Syndrome
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Alexis Nightwish
230
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Posted - 2015.06.04 21:24:03 -
[8] - Quote
To the first part: no cause suddenly not needing to fit 8 weapons results in a massive amount of fitting resources being freed up, leading to all sorts of balance issues. BS suck (see Baboli's thread for detailed discussion on this) but this isn't what they need.
To the second part: Unless CCP decides otherwise, you train torps for your SB, and cruise for your PvE BS.
CCP approaches problems in one of two ways: nudge or cludge
EVE Online's "I win!" Button
Fixing bombs, not the bombers
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Kione Keikira
Sleepless Guardians Unreachable
13
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Posted - 2015.06.04 21:28:59 -
[9] - Quote
Alexis Nightwish wrote:To the first part: no cause suddenly not needing to fit 8 weapons results in a massive amount of fitting resources being freed up, leading to all sorts of balance issues. BS suck (see Baboli's thread for detailed discussion on this) but this isn't what they need.
To the second part: Unless CCP decides otherwise, you train torps for your SB, and cruise for your PvE BS.
The first part is why some BSs suck not all ( some are marginally viable ). The fitting resources would of course be rebalanced.
And you train Heavy Missiles for your PvP BS, it really does need to be changed. I'll have to check out Baboli's thread.
Master of being misunderstood.
8 Turret Syndrome
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FireFrenzy
Satan's Unicorns
432
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Posted - 2015.06.04 22:16:11 -
[10] - Quote
Also having 4 turrets at double standard damage is worse then having 8 regular turrets... Critical hit chances and percentage hit chances always favor the party "throwing more dice" |
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Haatakan Reppola
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
20
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Posted - 2015.06.04 22:29:01 -
[11] - Quote
FireFrenzy wrote:Also having 4 turrets at double standard damage is worse then having 8 regular turrets... Critical hit chances and percentage hit chances always favor the party "throwing more dice"
8 guns will have 2x the "crit rate" compared to 4 guns, but the 4 guns will do 2x the critical dmg compared to 8 guns (avg the same total dmg over time) |
Tiddle Jr
Galvanized Inc.
208
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Posted - 2015.06.04 22:30:25 -
[12] - Quote
Kione Keikira wrote:
As for having only 6 turrets and 2 neuts on a Rokh, a Hyperion without any magstabs can easily surpass your DPS. The 3% powergrid implant isn't enough when you're left with 2k PG with just the Torpedo launchers fit, which is the case on the RNI.
I'm not suggesting to give the Rokh a ton of utility highs, I'm suggesting that it actually has space for them in the future ( it really does need 1, same with all the other 8 turret ships ) without being given a generic damage bonus which don't really add much into the game.
It'd be nice if you guys actually gave constructive feedback, rather than just slapping a comment that pretty much just says "I like this" or "I don't like this" and a barely useful shallow reasoning instead of trying to build on the idea or giving substantial reasons why it's a dumb idea. You've also completely neglected the issue with Torpedo launchers which is rather irritating although I should probably have posted it as a different topic.
Why would a Rokh should be same as Hyper? It's all different tactics and doctrines. Otherwsie everyone just stick to tier 3 BS with given extra high slots. You have Tempest 6/2 with Mael given 8/2 you would recive an uber Tempest. |
Big Cyc
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
2
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Posted - 2015.06.05 14:23:53 -
[13] - Quote
Haatakan Reppola wrote:Abaddon 10 effective turrets Apocalypse 11 effective turrets ....
ignored here
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Sigras
Conglomo
1030
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Posted - 2015.06.05 23:21:56 -
[14] - Quote
Kione Keikira wrote:Christopher Mabata wrote:Part of ship balancing is making trade-offs for what you want, plenty of battleships have a utility highslot, some dont, thats called variety. Make your choices with whats available, weve made it work for a decade, we'll keep making it work. Some don't, that's called being useless outside of blobs. Being able to apply cap pressure or have the ability to push drones off with smarties is vitally important. There's a reason why Raven is flown solo significantly more than the Rokh or the Abaddon. If you don't have any utility you're useless without a fleet behind you. The lack of utility highs doesn't add variety at all, not sure what you're trying to get at there. You realize that some ships are designed with certain roles in mind right? One of those roles is "fleet combat ship".
Not all ships have to be good at all roles; do you also complain that the guardian is a terrible solo PvP boat?
I could understand your gripe if there were no battleships that were good at small gang PvP but that simply isnt the case...
Do you want to fly a hybrid boat with a utility high? try the Hyperion Are drones more your speed? the Armageddon and Dominix have you covered. How about missiles? Well the Raven and Typhoon are your girls Want a projectile boat but still need utility highs? check out the Tempest We even have a laser boat to suit your needs if you're having a Nightmare...
I understand that you like to solo/small gang PvP, and I respect that, but you have plenty of Battleships to choose from with utility highs. Every ship in the game doesnt need to be tailored to fit your needs. |
Haatakan Reppola
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
25
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Posted - 2015.06.05 23:33:58 -
[15] - Quote
Big Cyc wrote:Haatakan Reppola wrote:Abaddon 10 effective turrets Apocalypse 11 effective turrets ....
ignored here
derped on that one, Apoc is only 8 effective :P (no idea where i got 11 from) |
Kione Keikira
Sleepless Guardians Unreachable
14
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Posted - 2015.06.06 02:49:06 -
[16] - Quote
Sigras wrote: You realize that some ships are designed with certain roles in mind right? One of those roles is "fleet combat ship".
Not all ships have to be good at all roles; do you also complain that the guardian is a terrible solo PvP boat?
I could understand your gripe if there were no battleships that were good at small gang PvP but that simply isnt the case...
Do you want to fly a hybrid boat with a utility high? try the Hyperion Are drones more your speed? the Armageddon and Dominix have you covered. How about missiles? Well the Raven and Typhoon are your girls Want a projectile boat but still need utility highs? check out the Tempest We even have a laser boat to suit your needs if you're having a Nightmare...
I understand that you like to solo/small gang PvP, and I respect that, but you have plenty of Battleships to choose from with utility highs. Every ship in the game doesnt need to be tailored to fit your needs.
There is one glaring problem with that though, not everyone has trained all the racial Battleship skills with appropriate support skills due to the sheer number of SP needed for them . A Caldari pilot is limited to the Raven, an Amarr pilot limited to the Armageddon and it also sucks that the faction versions aren't in a great place. You make a good point, but unless a really gimmicky and greatly sub optimal fit is used there just aren't other options for those 2 races. Caldari has a support battleship and Amarr has 2 ships afflicted by 8 turret syndrome which forces you to either go for a pirate BS or fly the same ship each time.
Master of being misunderstood.
8 Turret Syndrome
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James Baboli
Ferrous Infernum
851
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Posted - 2015.06.06 03:02:43 -
[17] - Quote
Really have to agree that this change is a nightmare to balance and seriously reduces thd benefit to the ships with that massive 100 or150 percent bonus. And thanks for plugging my thread. Link is in my signature.
Talking more,
Flying crazier,
And drinking more
Making battleships worth the warp
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FT Diomedes
The Graduates Get Off My Lawn
1039
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Posted - 2015.06.06 03:56:01 -
[18] - Quote
Not supported. Not every ship has to be the same for the game to be balanced.
The Greatest Ship Ever. Credit to Shahfluffers.
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Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
654
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Posted - 2015.06.06 05:33:34 -
[19] - Quote
Kione Keikira wrote: I think there shouldn't be a Battleship without a utility high, it's just too important not to have. Definitely agree with Amarr getting one, they need one with utility highs badly. If there were more options for utility highs in the future this only becomes a bigger problem.
BS fly with support. Accept and move on.
Want the support pull a weapon.
Rokh was caldari's only accepted fleet bs for years. Apparently some learned how to fly it right. Why don't you try that.
You also lost me at it can' t ft smart bombs. Its one of the most liked smart bomb bs choice in game ffs. Go disco...or go lr with rails. Your rokhs are't dying in small gang because its lacking a utility slot. Your pilots are flying it wrong and/or support is not tackling **** worth a damn. Good tackle, rokh at range....stuff goes boom. |
HiddenPorpoise
Expendable Miscreants
353
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Posted - 2015.06.06 06:20:17 -
[20] - Quote
The argument that the raven's utility high is what makes it work falls apart when most solo ravens don't depend on that slot. If there was an 8 launcher battleship it would subvert solo ravens and typhoons. |
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Sigras
Conglomo
1033
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Posted - 2015.06.06 08:09:38 -
[21] - Quote
Kione Keikira wrote:Sigras wrote:You realize that some ships are designed with certain roles in mind right? One of those roles is "fleet combat ship".
Not all ships have to be good at all roles; do you also complain that the guardian is a terrible solo PvP boat?
I could understand your gripe if there were no battleships that were good at small gang PvP but that simply isnt the case...
Do you want to fly a hybrid boat with a utility high? try the Hyperion Are drones more your speed? the Armageddon and Dominix have you covered. How about missiles? Well the Raven and Typhoon are your girls Want a projectile boat but still need utility highs? check out the Tempest We even have a laser boat to suit your needs if you're having a Nightmare...
I understand that you like to solo/small gang PvP, and I respect that, but you have plenty of Battleships to choose from with utility highs. Every ship in the game doesnt need to be tailored to fit your needs. There is one glaring problem with that though, not everyone has trained all the racial Battleship skills with appropriate support skills due to the sheer number of SP needed for them . A Caldari pilot is limited to the Raven, an Amarr pilot limited to the Armageddon and it also sucks that the faction versions aren't in a great place. You make a good point, but unless a really gimmicky and greatly sub optimal fit is used there just aren't other options for those 2 races. Caldari has a support battleship and Amarr has 2 ships afflicted by 8 turret syndrome which forces you to either go for a pirate BS or fly the same ship each time. Let me get this straight... Your complaint is that ONLY 1/3 of the battleships in the game are tailored to your play style? How many different ships do you need? you can only fly one at a time!
Every race and every weapon system is represented in the list I just gave you, what more do you want? |
Haatakan Reppola
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
28
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Posted - 2015.06.06 15:42:39 -
[22] - Quote
HiddenPorpoise wrote:The argument that the raven's utility high is what makes it work falls apart when most solo ravens don't depend on that slot. If there was an 8 launcher battleship it would subvert solo ravens and typhoons.
Any 8 launcher battleship would come with no dmg bonus, Barghest and TFI are the only ship with more than 8 effective launchers. Raven navy Issue, Scorpion Navy Issue, Raven and Typhhoon all have 8 effective launchers with RNI having 8 actual launchers.
I would love to get my hands on a 8 launcher Battleship with 37.5% dmg bonus (Vindicator) or 25% RoF for almost same dps! |
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
654
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Posted - 2015.06.07 01:08:07 -
[23] - Quote
Sigras wrote:Your complaint is that ONLY 1/3 of the battleships in the game are tailored to your play style? How many different ships do you need? you can only fly one at a time!
Every race and every weapon system is represented in the list I just gave you, what more do you want?
I blame this on tiericide and people thinking too much of what it should be.
CCP wanted roles for ships. It used to be defined by tiers. Now its ,not well technically, I still call them by tiers. Mainly because well....they still did the same job as before when the dust settled. Why....ships have roles. Don't like the role, fly another ship. On the player to know that role before training for it. Hate math and science....going for a degree in physics probably not a good career training path for life, as well....you will lack a passion for it.
Making everything the same not helping the game but clumping guns to be say 4 only to free slots up. Fleet choices made at undock have consequences. Make the right mixed fleet composition at undock all I can say really. Barring that if going for the one trick pony entire fleet one theme only....well pick targets it be really good at all I can say here. And hope not jumped by a counter fleet whose fc goes you know....we could be nice and meet this fleet with a compositions it obviously is meant to shoot out the sky. Or we could use our brains and bring the composition this fleet will choke and diaf on. The wiser choice would be the latter for obvious reasons.
Since they focused on caldari they have had and still have 3 options. Scorpion as support, raven as general purpose and rokh as the fleet BS. Keyword fleet. Best way to keep rokh alive is to not have it swarmed. No tracking bonus on hull, large em hole...stuff under guns will kill it. enter range bonus...people have to work some flying magic to play traversal games for 70+ km's if rail fit and not get tagged the whole time its burning to close that range. And that's with CNAM....depleted uranium or plutonium gets it even longer range while keeping some dps. When in rokhs I liked able support being in the crew. They keep crap off my back, I snipe, we had a nice day. When this didn't happen....oh well. I was playing the system using my superior range, someone countered that....good on them to not go deer in the headlights to just die like muppets really. But that's me....I liked smart opponents. If I wanted I shoot therefore you must die...I have lots of single player games that do that for me. |
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