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Fi T'Zeh
Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.11.22 11:52:00 -
[61]
Drake threads are to the S&M forums, what BoB threads are to Corps and Alliances. ....
Real men use blasters |
FireFoxx80
Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2006.11.22 11:58:00 -
[62]
I guess that people with only 2+ years gametime, and skills to fly the necessary ships, should be able to post about balance
The issue is that the Ferox is already a fairly good missile boat, regardless of the rail range bonuses. This needs to be fixed now that we have a missile based BC.
The NightHawk/Drake are too similar, at least the Cerberus has it's nice range/ROF bonus.
I reckon the Drake would do nicely with a bonus to HAM's only. Make it a short-range damage dealer.
What I do the rest of the time - Vote for a Jita bypass! |
James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.11.22 12:26:00 -
[63]
Originally by: HankMurphy
for the record, i have never in my life heard "Oh **** it's a RUPTURE!!!"
Maybe not, but it's better than "Haha, you brought a Caracal to a PvP fight, n00b". Rax, Vexor, Rupture, Stabber, Brutix are all quite reasonable PvP ships. I can't comment on amarr, as I've never trained it.
The only Caldari ships I see much in PvP is Crow and Raven. Occasionally BBs and Scorps show up in mid size gangs or larger.
Drake would have been a good ship if it had the same bonuses as the Raven. RoF and missile velocity. And it wouldn't get half as much whinging about how hard it tanks.
RoF + Resists + 7 launchers was very good, but ... well it's not up to the power of the Raven, whilst having similar limitations. Somewhat overpowered maybe, but dropping a launcher _and_ the RoF to Kinetic was going too far.
It makes me wonder actually. Was the initial draft of stats for Kali done by someone who flies caldari/minmatar, and now someone who flys gallente has given them the smackdown?
*shrug* I was hoping for a ship that'd be handy in PvP. The scorp and the raven are going to be suffering from chronically bad locking times once warp to zero is a standard option.
My hopes remain with the caracal, hoping it'll become a good PvP ship with heavy assault missiles.
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Testy Mctest
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Posted - 2006.11.22 12:27:00 -
[64]
Has anyone noticed how 'Drake' rhymes with 'mistake'?
Scrapheap Challenge Forums |
Darknar
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Posted - 2006.11.22 12:31:00 -
[65]
wait a sec. i thought caldri where the PVE carebears of eve. thats why i didnt train for there ships except up to industral level.
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Calprimus
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2006.11.22 12:50:00 -
[66]
Edited by: Calprimus on 22/11/2006 12:51:10
Originally by: Darknar wait a sec. i thought caldri where the PVE carebears of eve. thats why i didnt train for there ships except up to industral level.
Correct. That's why all the caldari carebears hoped for a good ship like the Drake for poking the nose on the dark side.
You see, - a ship where "everybody" were saying (on the test server) "omfg absolute pwnage" - a clone jump to save our 3B crystal implants - ......and be massacrated by the first BB+Thorax duo at the first 0.4 belt by the "real PvPers".
fun.
Well, sorry guys, we (at least this char )will remain in empire for the time being. No fat target for you, ebil ebil pilates.....
On a Drake vs NH comparison, and for mission running: Not yet sure, need to test the final Drake and NH versions that will hit the T server.
A Drake with same faction set up as the NH (dual gist, DG amp, DG BCUs, etc...) would be more probably another Lv4 runner. A bit like the NH now is.
A NH with the rof bonus would definetly have an edge. For the time to complete the mission, not for the survival.
If the CCP guys start to really push up the bar for faction warfare and team based mission, then we may have other scenarios.
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Verus Potestas
Caldari Perkone
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Posted - 2006.11.22 12:58:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Testy Mctest Has anyone noticed how 'Drake' rhymes with 'mistake'?
And how much Abaddon sounds like "A bad 'un"
Coincidence? I THINK NOT.
Between corps atm, the NPC one is strictly a temporary thing. RAWR!111 Sig Hijackz0r!!11 - Immy |
Lord WarATron
Amarr Vanguard Frontiers Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.11.22 13:31:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Verus Potestas
Originally by: Testy Mctest Has anyone noticed how 'Drake' rhymes with 'mistake'?
And how much Abaddon sounds like "A bad 'un"
Coincidence? I THINK NOT.
Abaddon is a anagram of "A Bad Don" or better still, "Tux's Abaddon is great" is a anagram of "as X-rated as doubting" --- Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble'Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE |
Blacklight
Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.11.22 13:39:00 -
[69]
Edited by: Blacklight on 22/11/2006 13:40:14
The core issue isn't the fact that the Drake got over nerfed.
The core issue is yet again a lack of a clearly defined development and balance strategy which is stuck to throughout testing i.e. "Tier 2 Battlecruisers are intended to maximise firepower and have reduced tanking abilities when compared to Tier 1 Battlecruisers, how this will be achieved will vary by race according to the racial preferences i.e. Amarr will have high ROF lasers, Minmatar will have an alpha striking artillery boat, Gallente will have a blasterboat/drone boat and Caldari will use missiles" or whatever that strategy will be.
Just for once I would love to see a Dev who looks after balancing set out clearly what the racial design paradigms are and what the specific roles for different ships are going to be. Then rather than just nerfing and stating "the damage output was too high" they can state "in line with the design philosophy of this overall ship class we didn't get the balance between damage output and survivability so we're tweaking XXX, this is still in line with that races ship design paradigm because of YYY".
That would save SOOOOOOOO much whining and complaining because even if we didn't agree with the changes at least we could see clearly what the intention behind a change is and that it fits with some overall plan.
I think current ship design/balancing is largely a mess from the player's perspective because there isn't enough transparency to the actual design philosophy (not to mention the fact that the Dev in charge of it atm has resorting to swearing at customers on the forums when his attempts to balance are criticised).
Blog
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Imhotep Khem
Total Mayhem.
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Posted - 2006.11.22 13:54:00 -
[70]
Its not a mistake, its called Caldari. Caldari have had the best tanks for a while. TO change that would make the ship not caldari. Like giving a lot of cap to a minmatar ship, or making its signature big.
It has to tank to fit its racial stereotype.
A big tank in Kali is going to be more valuable than ever before. ____ "If your not dyin' your not tryin'." "Are you prepared to go all the way, Alexi?" DuGalle |
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Blacklight
Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.11.22 14:00:00 -
[71]
To illustrate my point about having a design philosophy and sticking to it...
Quote: Well there is the Tier 2 battlecruisers. I don't really have any solid info on those yet. So far they're favoring damage over tankability which makes them extremely vulnerable to bigger ships due to their big signature radius and sluggish feel, but would make them quite devastating versus smaller ships, like cruisers.
An early comment from Tuxford on Tier 2 Battlecruisers. I know that comment was made very early in the design process but I can't find any further comment to suggest we have moved away from the design philosophy of these ships being Gank > Tank. That somehow doesn't seem to fit with the changes to bonuses and high slot layouts.
Consequentially, we when testing don't know what the ship is supposed to be able to do, no wonder there is so much confusion and frothing over it's capabilities.
Blog
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Roxanna Kell
BURN EDEN
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Posted - 2006.11.22 16:42:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Lord WarATron Curse + Shield Tank + HAM's + Drones = WTFPWN Current Drake in DPS and Tank.
/me Stroke's Curse :)
People still moan about heavy assault not realising that missiles are used for all the races. and amarr get EM bonus to them, wish is what Caladari would ve hoped for instead of kinetic.
Quote: "Don't touch the RED butt |
Siakel
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Posted - 2006.11.22 17:01:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Roxanna Kell
Originally by: Lord WarATron Curse + Shield Tank + HAM's + Drones = WTFPWN Current Drake in DPS and Tank.
/me Stroke's Curse :)
People still moan about heavy assault not realising that missiles are used for all the races. and amarr get EM bonus to them, wish is what Caladari would ve hoped for instead of kinetic.
I wouldn't say missiles are 'used for all the races' when the entire Amarr T1 line has 8-9 missile hardpoints, and only one ship with bonuses to them, while Gallente have even less.
Anyway, I don't know about other Amarr pilots, but I'd be more than happy to trade my EM damage bonus for your Kinetic damage bonus. I don't even know why you would want the EM bonus, though.
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Roxanna Kell
BURN EDEN
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Posted - 2006.11.22 20:17:00 -
[74]
TUX REPLY
Quote: 've been seeing a lot of concerns about these changes. Some people have been saying the Drake is useless now, especially with the change of bonus from rate of fire to kinetic damage. Does this make the ship predictable? Yeah it does a little bit. Theoretically, you could just stack on kinetic hardeners to tank the Drake, but in reality you shouldn't, or at least I sure as hell would never take that chance. If I'd just tank kinetic it's pretty certain that my shield/armor is wide open to the other damage types. Don't get me wrong, having every version of every damage type isn't really an option because of cargo space but to undock with just kinetic missiles in your hold isn't doing your insurance any favors. As a bunch of us are in a bit of a christmassy kind of mood, we are contemplating giving the Drake its launcher rate of fire bonus back and by contemplating I mean discussing and by discussing I mean throwing various oddly shaped objects at each other.
Quote: "Don't touch the RED butt |
Iteken Hotori
Minmatar GTE Corp
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Posted - 2006.11.22 21:31:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Fi T'Zeh Drake threads are to the S&M forums, what BoB threads are to Corps and Alliances.
You just won at S&M :p
(see sig!)
Warning: May contain flaming, trolling, swearing, typos, crimes against grammar, obscure reference to old films, in jokes, rambling, ranting and references to EvE. |
Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
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Posted - 2006.11.22 21:33:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Lord WarATron Curse + Shield Tank + HAM's + Drones = WTFPWN Current Drake in DPS and Tank.
/me Stroke's Curse :)
Yes but it'll be a cold day in hell before Amarr pilots even whisper that their omfgpwndjoo Curse is overkill.
Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
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Posted - 2006.11.22 21:34:00 -
[77]
Originally by: FireFoxx80 I reckon the Drake would do nicely with a bonus to HAM's only. Make it a short-range damage dealer.
Only if the same is done for the thorax and megathron with blasters.
Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
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Posted - 2006.11.22 21:41:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Blacklight To illustrate my point about having a design philosophy and sticking to it...
Quote: Well there is the Tier 2 battlecruisers. I don't really have any solid info on those yet. So far they're favoring damage over tankability which makes them extremely vulnerable to bigger ships due to their big signature radius and sluggish feel, but would make them quite devastating versus smaller ships, like cruisers.
An early comment from Tuxford on Tier 2 Battlecruisers. I know that comment was made very early in the design process but I can't find any further comment to suggest we have moved away from the design philosophy of these ships being Gank > Tank. That somehow doesn't seem to fit with the changes to bonuses and high slot layouts.
Consequentially, we when testing don't know what the ship is supposed to be able to do, no wonder there is so much confusion and frothing over it's capabilities.
I'd been looking for that excerpt, you just saved me some time.
Remove the resists, and give us our 7 launchers and 5% rof. make the 2nd bonus a TNP bonus if you have to.
Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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Bardi MecAuldnis
Amarr Pirates of Destruction Union Pirate Coalition
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Posted - 2006.11.22 21:52:00 -
[79]
What about the Drake with RoF and Kinetic bonus?
I like that idear. Full gank with some sort of racial thing-a-ma-jig. --- Hey hey let's go kenka suru! Taisetsuna mono protect my balls! Boku ga warui so lets fighting! LET'S FIGHTING LOVE!!! |
HankMurphy
Pelennor Swarm Eternal Rangers of Terror
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Posted - 2006.11.22 21:52:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Roxanna Kell TUX REPLY
yeah, that'll work
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Roxanna Kell
BURN EDEN
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Posted - 2006.11.22 22:23:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Bardi MecAuldnis What about the Drake with RoF and Kinetic bonus?
I like that idear. Full gank with some sort of racial thing-a-ma-jig.
Nighthawk all ready has that.
6launchers rof + kenetic bonus. if drake gets the same, than its a nighthawk for 1/6 of the price.
Quote: "Don't touch the RED butt |
Lord WarATron
Amarr Vanguard Frontiers Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.11.22 22:39:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Malthros Zenobia
Originally by: Lord WarATron Curse + Shield Tank + HAM's + Drones = WTFPWN Current Drake in DPS and Tank.
/me Stroke's Curse :)
Yes but it'll be a cold day in hell before Amarr pilots even whisper that their omfgpwndjoo Curse is overkill.
/me is Amarr /me has also been telling people since RMR how OMGpwnage the Shield Tanked Launcher Curse is.
/me shuts up. Careless talk costs nerfs :( --- Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble'Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE |
Bardi MecAuldnis
Amarr Pirates of Destruction Union Pirate Coalition
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Posted - 2006.11.22 22:44:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Roxanna Kell
Originally by: Bardi MecAuldnis What about the Drake with RoF and Kinetic bonus?
I like that idear. Full gank with some sort of racial thing-a-ma-jig.
Nighthawk all ready has that.
6launchers rof + kenetic bonus. if drake gets the same, than its a nighthawk for 1/6 of the price.
Oh, well then...I suck... --- Hey hey let's go kenka suru! Taisetsuna mono protect my balls! Boku ga warui so lets fighting! LET'S FIGHTING LOVE!!! |
Sorja
E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2006.11.22 22:53:00 -
[84]
Blacklight is right.
Race philosophy is only good to some extent and Caldari wanted a true gank ship. I don't think many would have complained the Drake lost it's tanking bonus or got less mid slots or any measure to insure the ship wasn't sturdy. Basically, we wanted a Caracal on steroids.
It was too much asking. At least with the RoF bonus coming back instead of the Kin bonus, the ship will probably be worth flying. ____________________ A gentleman is someone who can play the bagpipe, but who does not. |
Adeptus Malkavius
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Posted - 2006.11.22 23:30:00 -
[85]
it was too much asking but apparently if you're flying Gallente you just have to whine loud enough to get your new I-WIN drone ship boosted, and Sux, err, Tux listens
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HankMurphy
Pelennor Swarm Eternal Rangers of Terror
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Posted - 2006.11.22 23:38:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Sorja
Basically, we wanted a Caracal on steroids.
I'd love a rupture on steriods... but we got the munnin (not that i hate the ship, but its not really on roids) and the cyclone (not on roids either)
We got the hurricane coming! That should be sweet. Notice its alot like the cyclone only one is shield focused the other armor! (very similar to the drake = ferox whine ppl freaking out over).
We also got the bat before our ship was released (lost a weaps hardpoint just like you)
Of course, minmatar have always needed good pilot to make our ships work. So, *most* of us understood the re-working of the new BC's and the REASON they lost offense and not so much defense (they had too much DPS for their class, simple as that)
You all wanted a super gank machine. So what if a dev suggested he would like a gank focused new ship? They decided against it.
You didn't get it. Neither did anyone else. You were right saying 'it was too much asking' (if i understand that sentance correctly)
Hows it feel to want? Boo-freakin-hoo
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GrumpyCat
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Posted - 2006.11.22 23:50:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Imhotep Khem Its not a mistake, its called Caldari. Caldari have had the best tanks for a while. TO change that would make the ship not caldari. Like giving a lot of cap to a minmatar ship, or making its signature big.
It has to tank to fit its racial stereotype.
A big tank in Kali is going to be more valuable than ever before.
Yeah the caracal has that uber tank and isn't a wet tissue paper.
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Scordite
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Posted - 2006.11.23 00:21:00 -
[88]
It's like caldari are feeling the pain of being amarr without having to train for another race.
----------------------------------------------- The only legitimate use of the BLINK tag: Schr÷dinger's cat is [BLINK] not [/BLINK] dead. |
Kamazani
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2006.11.23 04:59:00 -
[89]
sounds like an "I want my 'I-win-button!'" <sniff sniff> <blows nose> --------------------------- by: GinoShin on 21/11/2006 11:41:44 whats evemon is it like a jamican wiseman? |
Flabida jaba
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Posted - 2006.11.23 12:01:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Verus Potestas Ferox should be rail-based tank. Drake should be missile-based gank.
End story.
Its a sound argument i'll give you that......one small problem though
when you put 5 250mm rails on a ferox ....it has no tank with engineering 5 i get 1250 grid 225 grid/per gun = 1125 for 5 medium rail guns
that means i have 175 grid left after i put 5 medium guns on it...count em 5! 175 grid between the 11 remaining slots????
this kinda says to me fit 200mm gun instead newb but given that the feroxs only advantage is range ....this seems counter intuitive plus no damage bonus or rate of fire bonus means you need the biggest guns even to get close to the DPS of other BC's and the tank is still a little grid constrained
oh wait were we talking about the drake?? my bad!
---------------------- Ferox: Designed as much to look like a killing machine as to be one, the Ferox will strike fear into the heart of anyone unlucky enough to get caught in its crosshairs. |
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