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Lucy Moo
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Posted - 2006.11.21 17:28:00 -
[1]
Did i hear ccp mention somewhere a nos nerf was coming? I cant remember for sure.
It's so lame how battleships can just fit a few nos and destroy anything smaller than themselves, what good are most HAC's against a battleship who has 2 or more nos fitted? Domis are even worse, how is any hac supposed to fit a domi with 5 nos?
Is a nos nerf really coming? Something like large nos has less of an effect on smaller sized ships, same goes for medium nos vs smaller ships.
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Locke DieDrake
Human Information Virus
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Posted - 2006.11.21 17:29:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Lucy Moo
It's so lame how battleships can just fit a few nos and destroy anything smaller than themselves, what good are most HAC's against a battleship who has 2 or more nos fitted? Domis are even worse, how is any hac supposed to fit a domi with 5 nos?
Try fighting from more than 25km away? Just a thought. ______________________________________________ Such a heavy burden now to be the one Born to bear and bring to all The details of our ending
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Gone'Postal
Minmatar LuthorCorp Combat Division
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Posted - 2006.11.21 17:31:00 -
[3]
I heard something about NOS not being able to take 100% of your cap, and how it might be changed to only take 80-90% of it.
But as far as I know thats not been confirmed by DEV.
The man without a face... The company without a clue. |
Amarria Lightwielder
N.A.G.A Corporation
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Posted - 2006.11.21 17:32:00 -
[4]
thought I heard something about making the nos "hit" smaller targets in a different way. Like in some way comparing the sig radius of the target with the size of the nos and calculating a nos "hit". Don't remember where I read this though. Ways to counter nos? Stay out of range, ECM, dampener, damage that doesn't need cap, etc.
Teh NAGA ShopÖ |
Paari Cuman
Windsor Trade Organization The Imperial Order
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Posted - 2006.11.21 17:32:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Lucy Moo Did i hear ccp mention somewhere a nos nerf was coming? I cant remember for sure.
It's so lame how battleships can just fit a few nos and destroy anything smaller than themselves, what good are most HAC's against a battleship who has 2 or more nos fitted? Domis are even worse, how is any hac supposed to fit a domi with 5 nos?
Is a nos nerf really coming? Something like large nos has less of an effect on smaller sized ships, same goes for medium nos vs smaller ships.
This sounds like another cry for "when EVE doesn't go my way."
Besides, T2 isn't always greater than T1. You can have a terrible setup and still lose against an inexperienced player.
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Wulfstan
Caldari The Sweeney
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Posted - 2006.11.21 17:43:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Lucy Moo It's so lame how battleships can just fit a few nos and destroy anything smaller than themselves, what good are most HAC's against a battleship who has 2 or more nos fitted? Domis are even worse, how is any hac supposed to fit a domi with 5 nos?
Surely that's by design? A HAC is not supposed to be able to WTFPWN a BS. Just becuase they cost 200 mill people forget where they sit in the food chain.
If every large thing was balanced out so it had a smaller effect on every small thing, I could go out and PWN anything else in my AF surely?
A 25km Area Of Effect NOS, that would be overpowered!
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Kaiu
Hinkledolph and K Associates The SUdden Death Squad
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Posted - 2006.11.21 17:46:00 -
[7]
You want to be able to solo a Dominix in your HAC?
Shouldn't happen imo ____________________ MOGarmy
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LC Sulla
BGG Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.21 17:58:00 -
[8]
OP,
They are battleships after all. Nothing should be too easy. I've seen plenty of Vagas eat BS's equipped with NOS's for lunch and I've seen some good BS pilots send HAC's fleeing in all directions.
But... the fact that virtually every pvp setup mounts at least one NOS indicates it's power. I'm not sure a game this complex can ever be perfectly balanced though. Perhaps some way to insulate your cap against NOS's and Neuts may be on the horizon.
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dennyreborn
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Posted - 2006.11.21 18:05:00 -
[9]
to be honest id like to see energy neutralizers boosted. maybe lower the amount of Cap they need. cause right now spending 500 cap every 24 seconds to kill someone else's cap by 500 isn't worth it. better to drain 100 every 12 seconds
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Imba Bambi
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Posted - 2006.11.21 18:09:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Kaiu You want to be able to solo a Dominix in your HAC?
Shouldn't happen imo
No. However, a Dominix right now is able to pwn all non-bs in short range battles and still be very effective against battleships - i.e., it is unbalanced.
Dont get me wrong, a Dominix fitted to take out HACs should be able to do so all the time - because it is a larger ship class. But then it should have problems with anything else that it isnt fitted to counter, but that is fitted to counter the Dominix. And thats not the case, mainly because Heavy Nos is a jack of all trades that works against any type of ship.
We can see the "no solo pwnmobile" philosophy in most systems in EvE, time to bring it to the central part of short range combat in Kali - cap draining - as well.
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Nev Clavain
Wise Guys Rogue Method Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.21 18:11:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Nev Clavain on 21/11/2006 18:12:05
Originally by: Lucy Moo Did i hear ccp mention somewhere a nos nerf was coming? I cant remember for sure.
It's so lame how battleships can just fit a few nos and destroy anything smaller than themselves, what good are most HAC's against a battleship who has 2 or more nos fitted? Domis are even worse, how is any hac supposed to fit a domi with 5 nos?
Is a nos nerf really coming? Something like large nos has less of an effect on smaller sized ships, same goes for medium nos vs smaller ships.
pfft. Nos is just about the only reason a small ship has to be wary of a Battleship. And FYI, Nos doesn't kill you. It's the other mods on the ship that kill you.
In my opinion Battleships are pretty **** weak compared to what they should be. They lock slowly, so have an instant EW disadvantage. They move slowly, so struggle to dictate range. Their class of guns, have bad tracking and resolution, so struggle to hit small targets. I wouldn't want Battleships to be the only ship to fly, but on the other hand they should be something for a smaller ship to fear, not just a big juicy target for HAC pilots, who think because they bought a T2 ship for (insert rediculous sum here) they should be able to pwn anything.
Basically you can always lock a Battleship faster if you setup right, and you should be able to dictate range. With speed and EW advantage given to smaller ships, Battleship deserve the capacitor and Nos advantage.
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Vladimir Titov
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2006.11.21 18:39:00 -
[12]
The problem with heavy nos and the reason they are not fair is that the generic ones have a 20km range, which is range you have to be under to scramble someone. Sure there are named disruptors, but those are far rarer and far more expensive than named nos.
A possible fix would be to change the disruptor range to 22-23km, or make nos's require tracking like turrets.
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Captin ShadowHawk
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.21 18:46:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Lucy Moo Did i hear ccp mention somewhere a nos nerf was coming? I cant remember for sure.
It's so lame how battleships can just fit a few nos and destroy anything smaller than themselves, what good are most HAC's against a battleship who has 2 or more nos fitted? Domis are even worse, how is any hac supposed to fit a domi with 5 nos?
Is a nos nerf really coming? Something like large nos has less of an effect on smaller sized ships, same goes for medium nos vs smaller ships.
Uh no here comes the nerf bat again.. maybe we can make 0.0 1.0 instead. |
Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.21 18:47:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Locke DieDrake
Originally by: Lucy Moo
It's so lame how battleships can just fit a few nos and destroy anything smaller than themselves, what good are most HAC's against a battleship who has 2 or more nos fitted? Domis are even worse, how is any hac supposed to fit a domi with 5 nos?
Try fighting from more than 25km away? Just a thought.
Because of warp disruptor range, you cant if you dont want him to run away.
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Khemul Zula
Amarr Umbra Congregatio Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2006.11.21 19:25:00 -
[15]
I remember one of the developers mentioning that they did not want to add tracking to NOS. Something about feeling it reversed the lack of balance rather than fixing it.
Think they mentioned something about possibly making NOS percentage based rather than a set amount each cycle. This way you wouldn't completely cripple someone with it, but you would disable some of their mods.
Can't remember if that was in a dev chat or a blog though that they talked about it.
"Everytime you mine Veldspar God kills a kitten." |
Miss Overlord
Gallente Ferrum Pugnus
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Posted - 2006.11.21 19:52:00 -
[16]
anti NOS modules or modules that disrupted 100% affectiveness were also mentioned. Perhaps a resistance level on ships could work as well tie it in with the EM-thermal-explosive and kinetic values. Perhaps a racial diversity to NOS as well. These posts represent my personal views and not those of my corp or alliance. These do not reflect offical alliance or corp views
This is a disclaimer |
Skooney
Gallente Universal Agencies
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Posted - 2006.11.21 20:01:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Imba Bambi Edited by: Imba Bambi on 21/11/2006 18:18:03
Originally by: Kaiu You want to be able to solo a Dominix in your HAC?
Shouldn't happen imo
No. However, a Dominix right now is able to pwn all non-bs in short range battles and still be very effective against battleships - i.e., it is unbalanced.
Dont get me wrong, a Dominix fitted to take out HACs should be able to do so all the time - because it is a larger ship class. But then it should have problems with anything else that it isnt fit to counter, but that is fit to counter the Dominix. And thats not the case, mainly because Heavy Nos is a jack of all trades that works against any type of ship.
We can see the "no solo pwnmobile" philosophy in most systems in EvE, time to bring it to the central part of short range combat in Kali - cap draining - as well.
To your first comment. You are so wrong.
As people have mentioned in this post already, there are many ships that are VERY effective and alot smaller then a DOMINIX that can get the job done. There is more to EVE then just F1,F2,F3....
Try looking at some Force Recon Ships, we have used them against various battleships with great success. Battleships can be beat, NOS can be beat, and truthfully, it is simple. It is called STRATEGY!
Universal Agencies
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MrTripps
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.11.21 20:02:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Lucy Moo It's so lame how battleships can just fit a few nos and destroy anything smaller than themselves
It is so lame that my frig can't destroy a Titan. HAC is heavy assault cruiser.
Most people would sooner die than think; in fact, they do so. - Bertrand Russell |
Paladineguru
Gallente DAB RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.21 20:02:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Paladineguru on 21/11/2006 20:03:38 edited
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Paladineguru
Gallente DAB RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.21 20:03:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Originally by: Locke DieDrake
Originally by: Lucy Moo
It's so lame how battleships can just fit a few nos and destroy anything smaller than themselves, what good are most HAC's against a battleship who has 2 or more nos fitted? Domis are even worse, how is any hac supposed to fit a domi with 5 nos?
Try fighting from more than 25km away? Just a thought.
Because of warp disruptor range, you cant if you dont want him to run away.
maybe its cause your supposed to have a t2 ship to scramble a bs from that far out of nos range , ie arazu or lachesis or OMG fit damps , two of those with a 20k scram or ecm meh whatever if ur not smart enough to find a way around a mod thats been in game since beta then you deserve what you get.
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Lucy Moo
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Posted - 2006.11.21 20:40:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Paladineguru
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Originally by: Locke DieDrake
Originally by: Lucy Moo
It's so lame how battleships can just fit a few nos and destroy anything smaller than themselves, what good are most HAC's against a battleship who has 2 or more nos fitted? Domis are even worse, how is any hac supposed to fit a domi with 5 nos?
Try fighting from more than 25km away? Just a thought.
Because of warp disruptor range, you cant if you dont want him to run away.
maybe its cause your supposed to have a t2 ship to scramble a bs from that far out of nos range , ie arazu or lachesis or OMG fit damps , two of those with a 20k scram or ecm meh whatever if ur not smart enough to find a way around a mod thats been in game since beta then you deserve what you get.
A few years ago you could have said the same about guns and missiles, oh wait, they got nerfed so they were not wtfbbq against smaller ships anymore. Guess what's going to happen to nos, yes, wait for it.... NO LONGER 100% effectiveness against smaller vessels, yes, the change will come, just you wait and see.
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Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
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Posted - 2006.11.21 20:48:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Lucy Moo Did i hear ccp mention somewhere a nos nerf was coming? I cant remember for sure.
Tux talked about having a small percentage of the capacitor be undrainable by NOS, and maybe having batteries be undrainable as well. Neuts however would still destroy cap freely.
It was definitely a drawing board kind of thing though. The only thing you can conclude from it is that they were examining whether NOS might be overpowered even before the hp boost.
* * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams, writing about EVE |
Blue Rider
ATOMIC SHOCK
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Posted - 2006.11.21 21:00:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Blue Rider on 21/11/2006 21:00:55
Originally by: Khemul Zula
Think they mentioned something about possibly making NOS percentage based rather than a set amount each cycle. This way you wouldn't completely cripple someone with it, but you would disable some of their mods.
If all EW worked like that, there would be a much better balance in the game (i.e. all EW targetting specific systems, not crippling a ship almost entirely as NOS and ECM does)
Edit: SP?
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Bill Shankly
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Posted - 2006.11.21 21:04:00 -
[24]
god help u if you have to actually use tactics to win a fight, There are many ways to not get nos'd.
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Quilan Ziller
Gallente Children of Azathoth Brotherhood Of Steel
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Posted - 2006.11.21 21:31:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Quilan Ziller on 21/11/2006 21:34:05
Originally by: Imba Bambi [ No. However, a Dominix right now is able to pwn all non-bs in short range battles and still be very effective against battleships - i.e., it is unbalanced.
Yes, it can beat most smaller ships 1 vs 1 in short range combat. This is the way it SHOULD be. It is a BS, after all. Against another BS? Like... A passive shield tanked Tempest? Or a Raven (also with passive tank)? You've got to be kidding me. It all comes down to your setup. And it is powerless against a concentrated attack of several smaller ships - even with all its NOS. Take last weekend... During my alliance's PvP op, we have omgwtfpwned a pirate NOS-Domi that was setup to be a bait, and were able to flee in time before the pirate's buddies have arrived. We had 8 people in a mixed frigate/AF fleet. We have lost one AF. The guy in the Domi has launched his drones, and was nossing big time. Domi is NOT overpowered. However, a nerf to NOS will make AFs very much overpowered against Domi. And a HAC will be omgwtfpwning a Domi 99 times out of a 100. Think about it... A Domi will have nothing to hit back against a smaller tough ship. Guns? No, large guns don't track, and have a 400m signature res. Drones? Heavy drones are slow, and miss. Light drones don't do enough damage. What is the point of a Domi at all then? Everyone will fly Ishkurs because it will become an I-WIN button. And if you don't trust my conclusion - go see all the Ishkur/Enyo videos, where the AF pilot pwns a battleship piloted by a noob. In all of the cases where the AF wins the battleship does NOT have a NOS mounted. And NOS are quite balanced as they are. A heavy NOS takes 2000 powergrid! A medium NOS takes 175. AWU skill does not change the PG requirements. Have you ever tried to fit a nossing setup? The more NOS you fit, the more you gimp your setup in terms of damage, versatility, and tank. And while 4 heavy NOS against a single smaller ship = I-WIN, if you have even two opponents, your fate is no longer all that certain.
______________________________________________________________ Of course the game is rigged. Don't let that stop you--if you don't play, you can't win. - Robert Heinlein |
Earthan
Gallente The Amazing Fire Eaters
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Posted - 2006.11.21 21:43:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Earthan on 21/11/2006 21:43:26
- A knight in space,war veteran. The Amazing Fire Eaters webpage |
Quilan Ziller
Gallente Children of Azathoth Brotherhood Of Steel
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Posted - 2006.11.21 22:07:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Tsanse Kinske
Originally by: Lucy Moo Did i hear ccp mention somewhere a nos nerf was coming? I cant remember for sure.
Tux talked about having a small percentage of the capacitor be undrainable by NOS, and maybe having batteries be undrainable as well. Neuts however would still destroy cap freely.
It was definitely a drawing board kind of thing though. The only thing you can conclude from it is that they were examining whether NOS might be overpowered even before the hp boost.
The result of a change like that? Minmatar = Gallente = Caldari. And a million of "boost Amarr" posts. As of now, Hybrid and Energy turrets use cap to fire. Projectiles and missiles do not. So, a nossed Hybrid/Energy ship cannot fire, while a nossed projectile/missile boat can. With a small amount of cap always available, a Hybrid setup will continue firing - just like minnie ships can now. Energy turrets use the most cap of all weapons, so the poor Amarr won't be able to fire for as long as Gallente. Nerfing NOS will take out more than one dimension from the game as we know it. And new game balance problems will be introduced. Don't fix it if it ain't broke...
______________________________________________________________ Of course the game is rigged. Don't let that stop you--if you don't play, you can't win. - Robert Heinlein |
Imba Bambi
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Posted - 2006.11.21 23:30:00 -
[28]
Quote: Yes, it can beat most smaller ships 1 vs 1 in short range combat. This is the way it SHOULD be. It is a BS, after all. Against another BS? Like... A passive shield tanked Tempest? Or a Raven (also with passive tank)?
I am not saying that a Dominix can own all types of BS, but it in its standard setup it is a strong choice against all actively tanked battleships - which is fine. The problem is that, also in its standard setup, it is devastating against smaller ships - while most of the other ships have a trade off here.
Quote: Think about it... A Domi will have nothing to hit back against a smaller tough ship.Guns? No, large guns don't track, and have a 400m signature res. Drones? Heavy drones are slow, and miss. Light drones don't do enough damage. What is the point of a Domi at all then?
Well, thats the situation for most other battleships. Think of a Tempest that is fit to defeat other BS. It has much more problems to deal with small enemies because its large turrets track awfully, it has less NOS, and a much smaller drone bay. And, quite frankly, this is how it should be.
A ship specifically fit to defeat large ships shouldnt be able to dispatch smaller ones as a side effect. And dont tell me that everybody will fly Ishkurs to own battle ships then. Guess what will happen? We will see more battleships that are fit to counter frigs, and they have such a great arsenal to do so that they will wipe the floor with small ships. And I dont have a problem with that, as long as they offset this ability with a weakness in the bs vs bs area.
What I am suggesting is nothing drastic, but maybe some kind of signature size for NOS. Dominix would still be able to swap 4 Heavy NOS for 4 Medium NOS, and thus own smaller ships. But it should be able to do so only at the cost of decreasing its performance in other areas, and thats not the case now.
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Lucy Moo
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Posted - 2006.11.21 23:39:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Wulfstan
Originally by: Lucy Moo It's so lame how battleships can just fit a few nos and destroy anything smaller than themselves, what good are most HAC's against a battleship who has 2 or more nos fitted? Domis are even worse, how is any hac supposed to fit a domi with 5 nos?
Surely that's by design? A HAC is not supposed to be able to WTFPWN a BS. Just becuase they cost 200 mill people forget where they sit in the food chain.
If every large thing was balanced out so it had a smaller effect on every small thing, I could go out and PWN anything else in my AF surely?
A 25km Area Of Effect NOS, that would be overpowered!
At even 50m a hac would be more expensive than a battleship, because it cannot be insured, also, in terms of DPS and tanking, what the hell are you talking about, its place in the food chain? the HAC is way up there on equal level with battleships. It's not right that your standard nos domi setup will have empty a full capacitor of energy on a HAC in just 12 seconds. Nos should follow the same rule as other hi-slot offense weapons, with large versions having less of an effect on smaller ships.
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Sythperve
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Posted - 2006.11.21 23:48:00 -
[30]
Sounds like everything else... I want my ship to beable to take on any other ship of its class or lower...
DENIED!
Every ship in this game has its role... IMO the game is balanced ENOUGH to where eachbas can take on its opposite, including the other ships.
Learn your place in the game, or lose to ships that are designed to kill yours.
I say balanced enough because ppl would say im saying the games balanced, which it is to a point of being realistic.
Every ship in this game has a roll. The new Amarr BC will be for long range encounters (duh!).
If you choose one race of ships, your gonna have a specific duty and way to play. Deal with it or learn them all.
Key points in this reply:
1) EVERY SHIP HAS A SPECIFIC DUTYTO PLAY!
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