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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.22 14:45:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 22/11/2006 16:01:42
Lowest tier guns
* Lowest tier guns for all ships * Hurricane and Cyclone has missiles + guns * Ive used light drones on the Hurricane because it only has 30 m3 of drones and its better with 5 lights than 3 mediums (cant use both in graph). Cyclone has 40 m3 so I used mediums for that one. * Ive used medium drones on the Brutix because 5 mediums gives higher dps than 2 heavy.
This is with the 125 m3 drone bay on the Myrmidon.
Balanced? Remember that Myrmidon has +37.5% repair amount bonus as well. Hurricane has nothing.
[Added] Highest tier guns [Added] More Realistic fitting (from Nyxus)
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Kassidus
Gallente Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2006.11.22 14:48:00 -
[2]
the problem though with your graph, is if the pilot going against the mermidon is smart he will just pop teh drones then have little problem tanking him and then its just a matter of time before the mermidon pops.
all it takes is one ship with a smart bomb and the mermidon is reduced to low damage.
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.22 14:49:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Kassidus the problem though with your graph, is if the pilot going against the mermidon is smart he will just pop teh drones then have little problem tanking him and then its just a matter of time before the mermidon pops.
all it takes is one ship with a smart bomb and the mermidon is reduced to low damage.
Im just asking if you feel its balanced. --- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Vincent Almasy
Gallente The Underground
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Posted - 2006.11.22 14:49:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Vincent Almasy on 22/11/2006 14:50:58 fix that chart to how their avg set ups are. The myrm's true weapon is.. you guessed it drones, so re scale that with the other's true weapons before you starts to cry nerf.
Anyways the minmatar ships should scale with three t2 mids and two t2 lighta for top damage..
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.22 14:50:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Vincent Almasy fix that chart to how their avg set ups are. The myrm's true weapon is.. you guessed it drones, so re scale that with the other's true weapons before you starts to cry nerf.
So whats the others true weapons?
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Vincent Almasy
Gallente The Underground
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Posted - 2006.11.22 14:52:00 -
[6]
look in the ship set up area for the full set ups but using the weakest mid weapons is kinda offsetting
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Kassidus
Gallente Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2006.11.22 14:52:00 -
[7]
yes i feel its balanced for that reason, and this.
Most mermidon pilots will likely use some nos so less DPS
pop 1 drone there goes more dps.
it would be over balanced if you could shoot the guns off ships.
but as it stands the mermidon does need 125m3 and even then it has no room for backup drones, i see this as reasonable.
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Ath Amon
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Posted - 2006.11.22 14:55:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Ath Amon on 22/11/2006 14:56:07 here 2 graphs i posted on another topic... for my comparsion i used the uber!!!1111 prenerf hurricane...
again is prenerf in all its ubernes and omgwtfbbqeness
graph1 (gank)
graph2 (hurr gank vs myrm tank)
note that this graph is prenerf hurricane with 3 damage mods vs myrmidon with no dmg mods...
of course myrm get also tanking bonus and one more midslot (3 damps ftw)
to get hurricane nerfed cause high dps: 3 page of whinage to get drake nerfed cause big tank and good damage: 5 page of whinage to get the myrmidon boosted to best dps and defence: priceless
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Mila Prestoc
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Posted - 2006.11.22 14:57:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Mila Prestoc on 22/11/2006 14:59:14 People need to stop thinking in 1 v 1 situations like you have on test server, that won't happen on main server.
Think about being in a small gang of 5 to 10 people where DPS is king since you can't tank that many people. Anything you attack will not have time to shoot your drones, not to mention the EW you can fit in those mid's.
No other BC can get this kind of damage AND tank.
If it was limited to using medium drones (as a method was posted in ships&modules by Tsar Maul there wouldn't be as big a problem as its damage would be in the range of the other BC's, especially the other TANKING bc's.
Fitting heavy drones to me is a "gank" setup, all or nothing, its "fitting cost" is no spares. Yet this does not affect its other modules or tank... -------------------------
Originally by: "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.22 15:00:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Ath Amon
note that this graph is prenerf hurricane with 3 damage mods vs myrmidon with no dmg mods...
That sort of thing tend to make a fair bit of difference, yeah.
But yeah, remove one more turret from the Hurricane... I mean, drones can be destroyed, so Hurricane should really be balanced to the Myrmidon dps without the drones shouldnt it? Also it uses no cap. Ever.
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
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Kassidus
Gallente Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2006.11.22 15:01:00 -
[11]
im sorry but I dont agree with the complaining over the drone bay increase.
drones are easy targets thats all there is to it, if you want to get into talk about gangs , then take into account that every other ship will also be in "gank mode" or fleet mode wich is set up for max damage, so make a graph that shows the highest possible damage from all the ships using mag stabs gyro stabs in true gank setup and then see how close it all gets. I bets its not that far off and the drone ship can still loose its drones.
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Ath Amon
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Posted - 2006.11.22 15:05:00 -
[12]
again, if you are in a gang is veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeery difficult that someone will start to shot down drones (as was alredy said)
if you are in 1vs1 situation then 3 damps, a bit of management and you will hardly lose any drone
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.22 15:08:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 22/11/2006 15:11:08
By the way, maybe have a look at the relation between the Brutix and the Cyclone (tier 1 battlecruisers)? I guess Brutix is horribly unbalanced then. Buff the Brutix? I think it needs 125 m3 drone bay as well to be balanced to the Cyclone.
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Vincent Almasy
Gallente The Underground
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Posted - 2006.11.22 15:10:00 -
[14]
with all skills maxed, 5 heavies do 475.2 dps which means eah drone killed removes 95.4dps for good. These drones are easy to pick off atleast one or two while they come at you with almost no tranversal when launched from more then point blank. The worry on ECM is going to the same with every drone boat, when was the last time you saw a gank Domi over a nos or ecm domi in TQ?
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Heelay Ashrum
Caldari Santhe Sienar Technologies
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Posted - 2006.11.22 15:11:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Graph
* Lowest tier guns for all ships * Hurricane and Cyclone has missiles + guns * Ive used light drones on the Hurricane because it only has 30 m3 of drones and its better with 5 lights than 3 mediums (cant use both in graph). Cyclone has 40 m3 so I used mediums for that one. * Ive used medium drones on the Brutix because 5 mediums gives higher dps than 2 heavy.
This is with the 125 m3 drone bay on the Myrmidon.
Balanced? Remember that Myrmidon has +37.5% repair amount bonus as well. Hurricane has nothing.
If graph is correct i have nothing against remove 2 turrets on the myrmidon, it should lower the hammage enough i think. Obviusly if the myr can do constant dammage with drones ( read: 200-250 m3).
can u add in grapgh a myrmydon ( same setup) with 4 and 3 turrets only?
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Kassidus
Gallente Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2006.11.22 15:13:00 -
[16]
man if you guys look at teh graphs on all ships from BS to frigates theres always ships that seem over powered that are fine the way they are, and infact dont get used alot, this game isnt all about everyone having the same thing , my god you people act like this is world of warcraft , this is EVE balance doesnt mean as much here.
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.22 15:14:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Kassidus man if you guys look at teh graphs on all ships from BS to frigates theres always ships that seem over powered that are fine the way they are, and infact dont get used alot, this game isnt all about everyone having the same thing , my god you people act like this is world of warcraft , this is EVE balance doesnt mean as much here.
Right. Lets ignore this graph.
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Kassidus
Gallente Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2006.11.22 15:17:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Originally by: Kassidus man if you guys look at teh graphs on all ships from BS to frigates theres always ships that seem over powered that are fine the way they are, and infact dont get used alot, this game isnt all about everyone having the same thing , my god you people act like this is world of warcraft , this is EVE balance doesnt mean as much here.
Right. Lets ignore this graph.
ok fine wait till its in use on tranq and if it turns into an uber pwn mobile of podding +2 then ***** but for now graphs dont mean **** really, real world use is what matters.
and untill that happens no one really knows.
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Ath Amon
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Posted - 2006.11.22 15:20:00 -
[19]
problem imo here are drones not guns... with such high drone dps... (just with drones it do more dps than a prenerf hurricane whitout dmg mods)
you can remove turrets but then you can fit noses and that is not a real nerf...
with 5 mids 6 lows you can do many extremely effective configs and still keep almost 500dps just using drones... (consider that a prenerf drake with javs and 3 damage mods was at around 450 dps)
in my opinion this ship need drone bonus applied only to mid and light drones and at that point eventually a bit higher dronebay...
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Vincent Almasy
Gallente The Underground
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Posted - 2006.11.22 15:21:00 -
[20]
regraph this with brut with ions and nuetron mix but atleast ion, the minmatar ships with 220mm or 220mm mixed with 425mm and also add in the amarr to balance as their ranges have the same damage mod, while gall have close range better then far but min have far better then close.
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Admiral Pieg
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.22 15:22:00 -
[21]
If they would fix the drone return to bay speed then yes, it would be unbalanced. But as it is now any half decent pilot would destroy those ogre 2's so fast it would make your head spin. ______________
Pod from above. |
Vincent Almasy
Gallente The Underground
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Posted - 2006.11.22 15:23:00 -
[22]
Why was the min ship nerfed again anyways, i remember the drake rof was rightfully nerfed but not the missile launcher
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Ambien Torca
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Posted - 2006.11.22 15:25:00 -
[23]
Just make it Eos-lite.
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Butter Dog
ISS Navy Task Force Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.11.22 15:36:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Originally by: Kassidus the problem though with your graph, is if the pilot going against the mermidon is smart he will just pop teh drones then have little problem tanking him and then its just a matter of time before the mermidon pops.
all it takes is one ship with a smart bomb and the mermidon is reduced to low damage.
Im just asking if you feel its balanced.
Of course its balanced and your graphs are close to meainingless in the real world.
1) Shoot drones, bye bye 450 DPS. 2) Mrym has to MWD into range to use blasters, resulting in unwanted transversal, and significant real-terms DPS decrease
We all know that those graphs show nothing apart from PERFECT engagement situations which rarely if EVER actually happen. Yes, If I warped 2km on top of a target, and they were stupid enough not to pop my drones... the graph has a degree of accuracy.
But in the real world, its just total crap.
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Waragha
Art of War Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2006.11.22 15:38:00 -
[25]
How does that graph look when you kill one or two drones?
Yeah.. thought so.
The reason why the dronebay was buffed is that drones are too easy to kill now. They don't want to buff their hp (as stated by tux in another thread).
This is the solution. It still wont be hard to just kill the drones, but i'll let you find out. You obviously need some training
Originally by: Trepkos
The only difference between GS and NPC's are that GS respawn quicker.
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Butter Dog
ISS Navy Task Force Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.11.22 15:40:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Waragha How does that graph look when you kill one or two drones?
Yeah.. thought so.
The reason why the dronebay was buffed is that drones are too easy to kill now. They don't want to buff their hp (as stated by tux in another thread).
This is the solution. It still wont be hard to just kill the drones, but i'll let you find out. You obviously need some training
QFT
Jim, if you spend more time playing and less time pouring over pointless spreadsheets you wouldnt post crap like this.
Thos DPS graphs are an exercise in pure theory. Practically, they mean f*** all.
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Ath Amon
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Posted - 2006.11.22 15:40:00 -
[27]
it was alredy replied about drones... before to complain about it read other posts that speak about drones in gangs and the usefulness of damps to preserve drones
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Butter Dog
ISS Navy Task Force Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.11.22 15:44:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Ath Amon it was alredy replied about drones... before to complain about it read other posts that speak about drones in gangs and the usefulness of damps to preserve drones
In larger gangs, instant firepower counts and heavy drones take a while to travel to targets 30km away... which results in massive real-terms DPS decrease. Also with blasters, you'll be disadvantaged as your sig radius increases to that of a small moon while you move in range. Another MASSIVE real-terms DPS decrease.
Those graphs represent 'perfect' engagement range and zero transversal. Well, I'm sorry, but as anyone who has ever used a blaster boat will tell you all that goes out the window when your target is 18km away and has placed a point on you while ripping you apart. Then pops your drones. Then you die.
And you can only fit one damp (which is nothing, really) before you have to remove essential modules like web, scram, injector, MWD.
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.22 15:44:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 22/11/2006 15:46:14
Originally by: Butter Dog
Thos DPS graphs are an exercise in pure theory. Practically, they mean f*** all.
Strange, they seem to have worked to get the Hurricane nerfed. --- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Butter Dog
ISS Navy Task Force Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.11.22 15:45:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Originally by: Butter Dog
Thos DPS graphs are an exercise in pure theory. Practically, they mean f*** all.
Strange, they seem to have worked to get the Hurricane nerfed.
If you think the only reason they nerfed the hurricane was your little graphs you need to grow up and get real.
It was a question of overall balance, 'perfect' DPS graphs have sweet FA to do with it.
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