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Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
507
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Posted - 2015.07.12 18:14:40 -
[61] - Quote
IbanezLaney wrote:People who complain about off grid boosts don't realize that if CCP removes them they will be in a much worse off position. Example: I'm sitting in a medium plex. You come to pew pew because 1v1 in an MMO is smart and how it's ment to be played. I tackle and decloak a falcon because my boost toon is now more useful as an ECM pilot. That will be the new reality. Don't think you'll be safe in novice or small plexes either. 99% of frigate fights last long enough for the cloaking lock delay to be well and truly over making a cloaking Griffin very viable. (I have tested this and the tears flowed way more than when I use boosts) So yeah - keep asking for boosts on grid people. Then you can start complaining about the next thing until all that is left are the things that suit your solo play style in an MMO. Or you could buy Elite Dangerous and get that now.
You really don't understand why this mentality is bad for a game do you?
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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1178
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Posted - 2015.07.13 16:34:30 -
[62] - Quote
Degnar Oskold wrote:Not suspect timer but weapons timer
So you want a 1 minute timer for a command ship sitting on a station? That's borderline - what's the point. It's worthless for 1v1 heros. It's not like 1 guy can can pop a reasonable tanked command ship in a minute.
Here's how it should work.
1. Weapons timer while anyone you are boosting is engaged in combat. If you're bro is on a gate in lowsex and takes gate guns, then you on the station should take station guns. If the law intervenes on the guy you're boosting then they should be on your patoot also. (the way to beat this would be to get off the station)
2. You get a limited engagement timer with anyone the guy you are boosting get a limited engagement timer with.
3. You get a suspect timer if the rules warrant it.
Example 1 - you and your combat bro are in the same corp. youre combat bro engages someone. he doesn't get a suspect timer and neither do you.
Example 2 - you're a risk averse neutral sissified boosting alt boosting your combat bro. you're aiding a 3rd party - you get a suspect timer.
That's totally how it should work and there really isn't any room for discussion. You can't half assist anyone for half consequences. You either put a dog in the fight or you don't. When they change it - it will be changed correctly. None of these halfassed compromises. There is no need to compromise with someone when they are wrong. You just tell them NO.
The mechanic as is reeks of risk aversion. That is a fact that can not be argued. There is no good reason for someone aiding a fight to not have the same consquences as the pilot doing the dps portion of the combat. When it gets fixed - it will be fixed correctly.
The end is nigh risk averse little boosters. You had a pretty good run, be happy with that. |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1476
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Posted - 2015.07.13 16:55:12 -
[63] - Quote
If a solo guy keeps getting into a fight where the other party is boosted, its kinda his situational awareness that is at fault.
One more time, balancing EVE for a niche activity while impacting thousands of other players doesnt seem like a great idea to me.
As for taking station guns, i dont think that is needed. Asking NPC's to solve your problems is also not a good idea.
Weapons timer and suspect marker should be enough to get those that dont leave station dread blapped often enough.
If the solution means less ships in space its a bad solution. if it means more ships in space (even bigger ones), then the idea is worth exploring. |
Plato Forko
123 Fake Street
166
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Posted - 2015.07.13 18:25:54 -
[64] - Quote
Am I the only one thinking that timers for links will affect everyone in the squad leader role regardless of whether or not they're a warfare-links-fitted puppet or an actual FC? |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1477
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Posted - 2015.07.13 18:42:39 -
[65] - Quote
Plato Forko wrote:Am I the only one thinking that timers for links will affect everyone in the squad leader role regardless of whether or not they're a warfare-links-fitted puppet or an actual FC?
A simple solution would be to tie the weapons timer and suspect to activating the module. Crude, but makes identifying links in local a little easier. |
takedoom
Knights of the Posing Meat FETID
75
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Posted - 2015.07.13 19:49:19 -
[66] - Quote
Who is going to use a combat booster then? No one. The idea of on grid boosters, weapon timers, suspect timers, ect will just kill another important aspect of the game.
http://spinthatdamnship.ytmnd.com/
I am not a thief. I am a treasure hunter.
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Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1477
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Posted - 2015.07.13 21:14:05 -
[67] - Quote
takedoom wrote:Who is going to use a combat booster then? No one. The idea of on grid boosters, weapon timers, suspect timers, ect will just kill another important aspect of the game.
There are some suggestions here that will prevent much use of boosters at all, for example, on grid boosts. Suspect timers and weapon timers will just force people to safe spots where, with a little effort, people can attack them rather than watch them dock or jump through a gate. |
Talis Mon
Remnants of an ATOM-BOMB
0
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Posted - 2015.07.13 21:27:03 -
[68] - Quote
I think that many have said that boosters can still be utiluzed, but that they are giving another a significant advantage and thus should acquire a higher level of risk. Logistics cruisers didn't retain immunity, and in my opinion some boosts are more advantagous. Basically, a booster of another shouldn't be able to just sit on a station or gate and if attacked (because I actually know that it's a boosting alt) I receive a plethora of bad voodoo.
Not to mention that even when off station they still have the ability to cloak or be very difficult to actually scan down. Point is they are getting a type of win button and should commit some skin in the game.
The scales should be closer to equal, and it shouldn't take paying to win to achieve a bit more parity. |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1477
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Posted - 2015.07.13 21:31:00 -
[69] - Quote
Talis Mon wrote:I think that many have said that boosters can still be utiluzed, but that they are giving another a significant advantage and thus should acquire a higher level of risk. Logistics cruisers didn't retain immunity, and in my opinion some boosts are more advantagous. Basically, a booster of another shouldn't be able to just sit on a station or gate and if attacked (because I actually know that it's a boosting alt) I receive a plethora of bad voodoo.
Not to mention that even when off station they still have the ability to cloak or be very difficult to actually scan down. Point is they are getting a type of win button and should commit some skin in the game.
The scales should be closer to equal, and it shouldn't take paying to win to achieve a bit more parity.
They have a boosting alt. You have a probing alt. You use your probing alt to prevent their booster from boosting. Or if it doesnt, to kill their booster or persuade it onto a station where it cannot dock while boosting.
But in most cases when a set of probes is closing in on a booster in a safe, thats the end of the boosts. No more boosts, but instead of crying for ccp to fix it, you fixed it yourself. Welcome to EVE.
You dont even need a probing alt now, with the new t3d's having combat a probing abilities. |
IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome Heiian Conglomerate
1448
|
Posted - 2015.07.13 23:07:38 -
[70] - Quote
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:IbanezLaney wrote:People who complain about off grid boosts don't realize that if CCP removes them they will be in a much worse off position. Example: I'm sitting in a medium plex. You come to pew pew because 1v1 in an MMO is smart and how it's ment to be played. I tackle and decloak a falcon because my boost toon is now more useful as an ECM pilot. That will be the new reality. Don't think you'll be safe in novice or small plexes either. 99% of frigate fights last long enough for the cloaking lock delay to be well and truly over making a cloaking Griffin very viable. (I have tested this and the tears flowed way more than when I use boosts) So yeah - keep asking for boosts on grid people. Then you can start complaining about the next thing until all that is left are the things that suit your solo play style in an MMO. Or you could buy Elite Dangerous and get that now. You really don't understand why this mentality is bad for a game do you?
When I started in low sec - I was a delusional scrub just like you.
Then I realized that it is the 'I wanna play a solo game within an MMO - Imma cry to CCP' mentality that is bad for the game and adapted.
https://soundcloud.com/ibanezlaney
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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1181
|
Posted - 2015.07.14 10:58:13 -
[71] - Quote
takedoom wrote:Who is going to use a combat booster then? No one. The idea of on grid boosters, weapon timers, suspect timers, ect will just kill another important aspect of the game.
People that are not risk averse muppets will use them. |
Estella Osoka
Perkone Caldari State
660
|
Posted - 2015.07.14 21:28:52 -
[72] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:takedoom wrote:Who is going to use a combat booster then? No one. The idea of on grid boosters, weapon timers, suspect timers, ect will just kill another important aspect of the game. People that are not risk averse muppets will use them.
No, as has already been said, they will just put up their OGB for a Falcon alt. |
pushdogg
Tell Your Mum To Call Me Get Off My Lawn
31
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Posted - 2015.07.15 01:36:07 -
[73] - Quote
Estella Osoka wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote:takedoom wrote:Who is going to use a combat booster then? No one. The idea of on grid boosters, weapon timers, suspect timers, ect will just kill another important aspect of the game. People that are not risk averse muppets will use them. No, as has already been said, they will just put up their OGB for a Falcon alt.
Funny ccp has given us plenty of options to counter that(implants and mods).....there is no counter to booster alts .....except a booster alt.....even in gang combat this holds true. That is what is flawed. |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1477
|
Posted - 2015.07.15 02:18:00 -
[74] - Quote
Snakes, Overdrive injector and Nanofiber is counter to skirmish links. More tank, slaves and crystals + blue pill is counter to siege and armour links etc. Perhaps the balance isnt perfect but suggesting that there are no counters is inaccurate. I do agree that having a fleet booster is the best way to ensure your fleet remains competitive, but apart from people complaining about compulsory alts in a game where everyone has alts, dont see any reasonable argument against that.
Suggesting that boosts are not a legitimate counter to boosts is also not accurate. It kinda sounds like the unfortunate 'supers can only be countered by more supers' argument. But there is no equivalence since having more boosters gives no additional advantage. |
pushdogg
Tell Your Mum To Call Me Get Off My Lawn
31
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Posted - 2015.07.15 05:34:11 -
[75] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:Snakes, Overdrive injector and Nanofiber is counter to skirmish links. More tank, slaves and crystals + blue pill is counter to siege and armour links etc. Perhaps the balance isnt perfect but suggesting that there are no counters is inaccurate. I do agree that having a fleet booster is the best way to ensure your fleet remains competitive, but apart from people complaining about compulsory alts in a game where everyone has alts, dont see any reasonable argument against that.
Suggesting that boosts are not a legitimate counter to boosts is also not accurate. It kinda sounds like the unfortunate 'supers can only be countered by more supers' argument. But there is no equivalence since having more boosters gives no additional advantage.
I suggested that boosts are the only legitimate counter.....to boosts. You point with drugs and mods and implants....counters one warfare link......mine sports 5. |
Silverbackyererse
The Church of Awesome Heiian Conglomerate
144
|
Posted - 2015.07.15 06:20:43 -
[76] - Quote
Lamenting about links is sooooo 2014 and you could have trained your own combat booster by now. Why didn't ya's?
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pushdogg
Tell Your Mum To Call Me Get Off My Lawn
31
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Posted - 2015.07.15 08:02:10 -
[77] - Quote
Silverbackyererse wrote:Lamenting about links is sooooo 2014 and you could have trained your own combat booster by now. Why didn't ya's?
Who`s to say I haven't.....
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IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome Heiian Conglomerate
1449
|
Posted - 2015.07.15 08:27:40 -
[78] - Quote
pushdogg wrote:
So in short a falcon can be hard countered and it takes 3 sets of implants + drugs to counter a booster alt.....
If you are countering a Falcon then you are not doing the 'solo' pvp that creates the tears about boosters/this thread.
You just don't like the fact that smaller groups in cheaper ships can fight you if they have boosts available.
https://soundcloud.com/ibanezlaney
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Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1477
|
Posted - 2015.07.15 11:13:42 -
[79] - Quote
pushdogg wrote:Crosi Wesdo wrote:Snakes, Overdrive injector and Nanofiber is counter to skirmish links. More tank, slaves and crystals + blue pill is counter to siege and armour links etc. Perhaps the balance isnt perfect but suggesting that there are no counters is inaccurate. I do agree that having a fleet booster is the best way to ensure your fleet remains competitive, but apart from people complaining about compulsory alts in a game where everyone has alts, dont see any reasonable argument against that.
Suggesting that boosts are not a legitimate counter to boosts is also not accurate. It kinda sounds like the unfortunate 'supers can only be countered by more supers' argument. But there is no equivalence since having more boosters gives no additional advantage. I suggested that boosts are the only legitimate counter.....to boosts. You point with drugs and mods and implants....counters one warfare link......usually a booster will have 5 or so. So in short a falcon can be hard countered and it takes 3 sets of implants + drugs to counter a booster alt.....
While i reject that boosters are all powerful, on the basis that many people do fine without them, i am on board with weapons/suspect timers to encourage more use of probing. Probes are a hard counter to boosters in safe spots. You dont even need good skills since the booster doesnt know that and will likely withdraw. These small changes will create more content rather than just removing a class of ship from space. |
pushdogg
Tell Your Mum To Call Me Get Off My Lawn
31
|
Posted - 2015.07.15 11:16:27 -
[80] - Quote
IbanezLaney wrote:
You just don't like the fact that smaller groups in cheaper ships can fight you if they have boosts available.
there is nothing in eve i "dont like".
they should have boosts available, i didnt say i had a problem with boosts. i just said that there is no hard counter to them.
hence an issue of balance. now if i could shoot your booster alt, and said alt couldnt instantly dock or jump through a gate, we would have something. even though a weapons timer would give only a gang of a decent size the time to get rid of a command ship, it would offer options for removal.
im sure your arguement will be that booster jumping or docking solves the problem, and it does, but with no weapons timer or limited engagement timer, you are forced to deal with gate guns or station guns even if the booster alts fleet aggressed you. with that comes sec status hits, and a suspect timer for you.....
as i stated before.....flawed.
edit: added extra words.....and didnt need them. |
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Estella Osoka
Perkone Caldari State
660
|
Posted - 2015.07.15 14:22:29 -
[81] - Quote
pushdogg wrote:Estella Osoka wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote:takedoom wrote:Who is going to use a combat booster then? No one. The idea of on grid boosters, weapon timers, suspect timers, ect will just kill another important aspect of the game. People that are not risk averse muppets will use them. No, as has already been said, they will just put up their OGB for a Falcon alt. Funny ccp has given us plenty of options to counter that(implants and mods).....there is no counter to booster alts .....except a booster alt.....even in gang combat this holds true. That is what is flawed.
Falcon is just one of the force recon options. Any of them can ruin your day. |
El Taron
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
7
|
Posted - 2015.07.15 15:29:03 -
[82] - Quote
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:Marlin Spikes wrote:Too much credit is given to boosting alts. Although they add an edge to the fight, either side can use them. My opinion is that good pilots generally have boosting alts and bad pilots don't. If you want to level the playing field, get another account and train up a boosting alt. Problem fixed. No. Links are a HUGE edge in solo and small gang; accepting them as a requirement for competition in those arenas has a chilling effect on 1v1 and small gang encounters and establishes yet another barrier of entry for newer players wanting to do something other than blob warfare. If they are going to remain part of the game they need to appear on killboards and have a risk level appropriate to their rewards, especially if someone makes a habit of dragging their T3 win button all over hostile space.
That.
Marlin's comment is completely wrong. Links are a huge bonus, and that bonus increases per pilot in the fleet because it's applied to each one.
Bad pilots appear decent with links even though they're using a pay to win strategy by boxing a risk free alt.
At a minimum we need to see them going suspect and have a weapons timer to have at least some risk attached to using them, although personally I think they should be on grid. |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1477
|
Posted - 2015.07.15 15:35:48 -
[83] - Quote
Everyone in eve is pay to win. Well, apart from the whiners in this thread who are pay to lose. |
Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
509
|
Posted - 2015.07.15 16:51:00 -
[84] - Quote
IbanezLaney wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote:IbanezLaney wrote:People who complain about off grid boosts don't realize that if CCP removes them they will be in a much worse off position. Example: I'm sitting in a medium plex. You come to pew pew because 1v1 in an MMO is smart and how it's ment to be played. I tackle and decloak a falcon because my boost toon is now more useful as an ECM pilot. That will be the new reality. Don't think you'll be safe in novice or small plexes either. 99% of frigate fights last long enough for the cloaking lock delay to be well and truly over making a cloaking Griffin very viable. (I have tested this and the tears flowed way more than when I use boosts) So yeah - keep asking for boosts on grid people. Then you can start complaining about the next thing until all that is left are the things that suit your solo play style in an MMO. Or you could buy Elite Dangerous and get that now. You really don't understand why this mentality is bad for a game do you? When I started in low sec - I was a delusional scrub just like you. Then I realized that it is the 'I wanna play a solo game within an MMO - Imma cry to CCP' mentality that is bad for the game and adapted.
Apparently you're still a delusional scrub. An alt arms race has nothing to do with this being an MMO. This is the only MMO I have ever heard of where the outcomes of so many contests are determined by who has bought more accounts and can multibox them effectively. That has nothing to do with skill, or tactics, or intelligence. It's nothing more than "Here is my credit card info CCP now give me the victories please."
Use a Falcon alt all you want. You'll kill me once, I will watchlist both toons and if you ever see me again I'll have real human players waiting to sort your little trump card. Hell as it stands now links don't bother me, because I know which systems you scum hang out in and avoid you if I actually want good fights. But what you don't seem to realize is how bad your mentality of "win at all costs" is for a GAME which lives or dies based on its ability to entertain the players.
If you turn the game into a continuous exercise in risk-averse deck stacking, the content level goes down. It's that simple. People will stop fighting you if they know you have links, or a falcon alt, or will drop Archons on a small gang scrap if you get in trouble. They will only engage if they can out-compete you in the escalation game, at which point the tables turn and your risk aversion keeps you docked up until they move on and you can find someone new to decloak your Falcon on.
I don't see why you think it is skillful to have a "make my ship 25% better at everything" button that sits under station or gate guns and jumps/docks at the first sign of trouble. Your logic is that I'm a scrub because I haven't spent as much cash on EVE as you have. It's laughable.
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El Taron
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
7
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Posted - 2015.07.15 17:11:34 -
[85] - Quote
Demerius Xenocratus wrote: Your logic is that I'm a scrub because I haven't spent as much cash on EVE as you have. It's laughable.
I'm cynical, unfortunately I think that's the exact reason CCP haven't nerfed them already.
Seems a shortsighted strategy to me though, it puts me off doing the only thing I really enjoy in this game and the way they've changed the game to require you to have multiple accounts means that most people that leave take multiple accounts with them.
As you say it's a joke right now, and hillarious how some of these people using them seem to think their credit card somehow makes them good.
As for the falcon example....at least that has to be on field and is subject to a weapons timer, making it at risk and let's not forget potentially need piloting and can be countered too. For all the **** Falcon's used to get (rightly so), they're less of a cancer to the game than OGB's now. |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1192
|
Posted - 2015.07.15 18:24:35 -
[86] - Quote
IbanezLaney wrote:People who complain about off grid boosts don't realize that if CCP removes them they will be in a much worse off position. Example: I'm sitting in a medium plex. You come to pew pew because 1v1 in an MMO is smart and how it's ment to be played. I tackle and decloak a falcon because my boost toon is now more useful as an ECM pilot. That will be the new reality. Don't think you'll be safe in novice or small plexes either. 99% of frigate fights last long enough for the cloaking lock delay to be well and truly over making a cloaking Griffin very viable. (I have tested this and the tears flowed way more than when I use boosts) So yeah - keep asking for boosts on grid people. Then you can start complaining about the next thing until all that is left are the things that suit your solo play style in an MMO. Or you could buy Elite Dangerous and get that now.
So the differences (as if you didn't know) are that Freddy Falcon could miss a jam and I could kill him (there is a chance - no matter how small it is) and then get back to killing you AND Freddy Falcon shows up on the km as obvious proof that Little Sally Rottencrotch isn't really a leet solo character.
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Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
512
|
Posted - 2015.07.15 18:25:10 -
[87] - Quote
El Taron wrote:[quote=Demerius Xenocratus] Your logic is that I'm a scrub son CCP haven't nerfed them already.
Seems a shortsighted strategy to me though, it puts me off doing the only thing I really enjoy in this game and the way they've changed the game to require you to have multiple accounts means that most people that leave take multiple accounts with them.
As you say it's a joke right now, and hillarious how some of these people using them seem to think their credit card somehow makes them good.
As for the falcon example....at least that has to be on field and is subject to a weapons timer, making it at risk and let's not forget potentially need piloting and can be countered too. For all the **** Falcon's used to get (rightly so), they're less of a cancer to the game than OGB's now.
It's not like I expect CCP to somehow reverse the game of alts meta; it is extremely beneficial for their business. I do wish people would be honest about the extent to which it represents pay to win gameplay though when you see 1v1/small gang conflicts decided more by who can bring more alts than by in-game player choices.
There are quite a few notable differences between OGB, and on-grid advantages like ewar, logi, or implants.
Falcons can't get into small or novice plexes, which eliminates much of their utility as an FW "solo" trump card right off the bat. And all most reasonable posters are asking anyway is that OGB be subject to the same mechanics as on-grid assistance; that it appear on killmails and acquire, if not a suspect timer then at least a weapons timer.
The fact that an OGB can sit on station or gate and not even be at risk from a squad of ganknados or something like a Vindicator or Vigilant is absurd. The truly shocking thing is that people STILL manage to lose them despite the fact that they require minimal attention.
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Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
512
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Posted - 2015.07.15 18:27:23 -
[88] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:IbanezLaney wrote:People who complain about off grid boosts don't realize that if CCP removes them they will be in a much worse off position. Example: I'm sitting in a medium plex. You come to pew pew because 1v1 in an MMO is smart and how it's ment to be played. I tackle and decloak a falcon because my boost toon is now more useful as an ECM pilot. That will be the new reality. Don't think you'll be safe in novice or small plexes either. 99% of frigate fights last long enough for the cloaking lock delay to be well and truly over making a cloaking Griffin very viable. (I have tested this and the tears flowed way more than when I use boosts) So yeah - keep asking for boosts on grid people. Then you can start complaining about the next thing until all that is left are the things that suit your solo play style in an MMO. Or you could buy Elite Dangerous and get that now. So the differences (as if you didn't know) are that Freddy Falcon could miss a jam and I could kill him (there is a chance - no matter how small it is) and then get back to killing you AND Freddy Falcon shows up on the km as obvious proof that Little Sally Rottencrotch isn't really a leet solo character.
The Falcon Trope is a red herring that doesn't hold up logically. Delicious tear-scented smoke from people who bought a booster and are afraid their link-dependent solo god is gonna get a much needed risk injection. |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1477
|
Posted - 2015.07.15 21:56:15 -
[89] - Quote
Demerius Xenocratus wrote: The Falcon Trope is a red herring that doesn't hold up logically. Delicious tear-scented smoke from people who bought a booster and are afraid their link-dependent solo god is gonna get a much needed risk injection.
Still obsessing over the solo meta in an MMO. |
Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
512
|
Posted - 2015.07.15 22:59:59 -
[90] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote: The Falcon Trope is a red herring that doesn't hold up logically. Delicious tear-scented smoke from people who bought a booster and are afraid their link-dependent solo god is gonna get a much needed risk injection.
Still obsessing over the solo meta in an MMO. If multiple accounts counter boosts and falcon, why not just bring as many accounts as you need?
Because the game should be a contest of player skill and intelligence rather than who is willing to throw more money at it.
And I CAN bring more players, just as it stands now links are exceptionally hard to gank if the user is not completely oblivious, because they can immediate dock or jump.
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