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Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
170
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Posted - 2015.06.17 22:33:18 -
[31] - Quote
Kirra Tarren wrote:Situation: Somebody is ratting nullsec anomalies in a Raven. The NPCs are dying by the bushes while the Raven is tanking easily. Suddenly, a lone cynabal/proteus/stealth bomber/whatever warps in, warp scrambles the Raven and begins to do serious damage, breaking his tank.
That's when the rats go crazy and decide to shoot the pilot that is helping them kill the Raven, who they stand no chance of fighting and that has slaughtered dozens of their fellow pirates, because "hurr durr warp scrambler causes aggro".
So when is this getting fixed? I think your problem is interfering with other players game. Why not wait for the Raven in the PVP room known as the gate? |
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
1007
|
Posted - 2015.06.17 22:38:37 -
[32] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:I think your problem is interfering with other players game. Why not wait for the Raven in the PVP room known as the gate?
clearly, a post from someone who obviously never tried to do what OP complained about. As if it wasnt hard enough to find and point a ratter in anomaly/plex, with all those forces combined against you, you suddenly expect ratters raven to take gates with a neutral in local, holy cow! How long do you play eve, friend? |
Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
170
|
Posted - 2015.06.17 22:58:47 -
[33] - Quote
Robert Caldera wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:I think your problem is interfering with other players game. Why not wait for the Raven in the PVP room known as the gate? clearly, a post from someone who obviously never tried to do what OP complained about. As if it wasnt hard enough to find and point a ratter in anomaly/plex, with all those forces combined against you, you suddenly expect ratters raven to take gates with a neutral in local, holy cow! How long do you play eve, friend? It's not! You can scan for wrecks. That in itself makes what the OP is failing to do easier than it should be. He knows by the wreck type what kind of damage the Raven is tanked for, and dealing. In other words, all he has to do is tank accordingly. |
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
1007
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Posted - 2015.06.17 23:18:32 -
[34] - Quote
you're either trolling, not paying attention to what's already been discussed or that far off simply due to lack of experience/understanding about points being made here. |
Phaade
Perimeter Defense Systems
357
|
Posted - 2015.06.17 23:50:40 -
[35] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Kirra Tarren wrote:Situation: Somebody is ratting nullsec anomalies in a Raven. The NPCs are dying by the bushes while the Raven is tanking easily. Suddenly, a lone cynabal/proteus/stealth bomber/whatever warps in, warp scrambles the Raven and begins to do serious damage, breaking his tank.
That's when the rats go crazy and decide to shoot the pilot that is helping them kill the Raven, who they stand no chance of fighting and that has slaughtered dozens of their fellow pirates, because "hurr durr warp scrambler causes aggro".
So when is this getting fixed? They are behaving exactly like players would by getting on an easy killmail, namely, you in a not so greatly tanked PvP fit. Any other question?
Said the troll.
Any other ridiculously idiotic comment you'd like to make? |
Phaade
Perimeter Defense Systems
357
|
Posted - 2015.06.17 23:55:38 -
[36] - Quote
Robert Caldera wrote:Kirra Tarren wrote:Situation: Somebody is ratting nullsec anomalies in a Raven. The NPCs are dying by the bushes while the Raven is tanking easily. Suddenly, a lone cynabal/proteus/stealth bomber/whatever warps in, warp scrambles the Raven and begins to do serious damage, breaking his tank.
That's when the rats go crazy and decide to shoot the pilot that is helping them kill the Raven, who they stand no chance of fighting and that has slaughtered dozens of their fellow pirates, because "hurr durr warp scrambler causes aggro".
So when is this getting fixed? this sick mechanic is the reason why you cant solo hunt ratters anymore. Ridiculously out of balance, but CCP chooses to ignore for some reason, I guess they're trying to populate 0.0 with ratters this way. This NPC change removed a whole huge, one of few solo PvP professions you could spend time on ever in 0.0. You'll earn nothing but million of stupid responses why this broken mechanic is right - people love safe ratting and NPC protecting them from other players...
QFT |
Phaade
Perimeter Defense Systems
357
|
Posted - 2015.06.17 23:56:50 -
[37] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Kirra Tarren wrote: That's when the rats go crazy and decide to shoot the pilot that is helping them kill the Raven, who they stand no chance of fighting and that has slaughtered dozens of their fellow pirates, because "hurr durr warp scrambler causes aggro".
You say they are dumb. I say switching targets to the soft one they CAN kill is an absolutely perfect replication of player behaviour.
To then be slaughtered by the original person.....
Uhh, no, that is behavior of morons. |
McChicken Combo HalfMayo
The Happy Meal
793
|
Posted - 2015.06.17 23:57:29 -
[38] - Quote
I'm not sure how they should deal with rat aggro in these situations but it's odd that rats pour their damage onto the player who's killing the guy that's mass murdering them.
There are ways to deal with it but so what? You could double the HP on freighters and there would still be ways to kill them. That doesn't mean it's balanced.
Calling the rat behavior player emulation is also a bit silly. If a fleet of players were being successfully solo'd by a single enemy they wouldn't switch aggro to the guy that arrives that has a good chance of killing their enemy.
Since the rats don't provide much risk to the ratter itself, the rats effectively act as an NPC security force for a human player while running sites and missions. That's no good. Try to imagine if rats started successfully stopping ganks in highsec mining belts. NPC involvement in player affairs should be minimized when possible.
There are all our dominion
Gate camps: "Its like the lowsec watercooler, just with explosions and boose" - Ralph King-Griffin
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Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
755
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Posted - 2015.06.18 01:26:18 -
[39] - Quote
By the logic of the OP, the rats should have just left 20 minutes ago.
You need to bring a ship equivalent to what the ratters is flying. It's a good mechanic because it promotes fights, not kills.
If you stopped constantly looking for easy kills you might find more fights.
No one should be immune to the environment. |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
809
|
Posted - 2015.06.18 01:46:21 -
[40] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:By the logic of the OP, the rats should have just left 20 minutes ago.
You need to bring a ship equivalent to what the ratters is flying. It's a good mechanic because it promotes fights, not kills.
If you stopped constantly looking for easy kills you might find more fights.
No one should be immune to the environment.
This, or they would have dropped cyno on them... |
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FT Diomedes
The Graduates Get Off My Lawn
1114
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Posted - 2015.06.18 01:48:08 -
[41] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:By the logic of the OP, the rats should have just left 20 minutes ago.
You need to bring a ship equivalent to what the ratters is flying. It's a good mechanic because it promotes fights, not kills.
If you stopped constantly looking for easy kills you might find more fights.
No one should be immune to the environment.
Wait, did you just suggest that since NPC's are acting like players (they are not), they should have warped off once they realized they were losing the fight? That the ratter should have to fit a point to keep them on grid?
People complain on one hand about null sec care bear space being too safe, while disregarding that this is one thing that makes it too safe.
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. So, why do I post here?
I'm stubborn.
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Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
170
|
Posted - 2015.06.18 01:49:04 -
[42] - Quote
From a lore point of view, why would the rats side with you? You could be there to kill them too... |
FT Diomedes
The Graduates Get Off My Lawn
1114
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Posted - 2015.06.18 01:50:10 -
[43] - Quote
Let's get one thing straight: Eve is not about "fair" fights. It is about destroying player built spaceships.
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. So, why do I post here?
I'm stubborn.
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Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
809
|
Posted - 2015.06.18 01:53:14 -
[44] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:Let's get one thing straight: Eve is not about "fair" fights. It is about destroying player built spaceships.
Just quoting this, as it helps to further the point that everything is working as intended. |
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
673
|
Posted - 2015.06.18 03:49:48 -
[45] - Quote
This...again....
eve had it the other way around and it made for easy pickings as ratter could be pretty much screwed being beat down by rats and the pvp'er. Low grade cheap shot km's really.
the well the enemy of my enemy is my friend bit....not always true. I have had friends farm pve in special ways. As in kill the ratter after they have basically wiped the area. Kill the ratter, kill the few rats left, collect the wrecks and see what they get for a prize after.
that and I said in the last thread like this before....if pirate faction NPC's were like empire faction after 6+ years of shooting them my actions against them would be considered genocidal at this point. I would not just be shoot in sight...I'd be nuke the site from orbit just to be sure shoot on site.
So here is your roleplay. I tackle you in blood space , blood rats go "ITS HIM!!!!!, kill that bastard who has killed millions of our people" and attack me with extreme prejudice. 2 years o f 0.0 almost entirely in blood rat regions....I know they have mad love for me love.
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Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
1010
|
Posted - 2015.06.18 04:01:13 -
[46] - Quote
haha yeah, so if there is a marauder ratting in the depth of branch, bring your own marauder there if you want that shiny killmail, noob lmao.
I told you, man =˙éget ready for worst trashtalk replies here, people love npc protecting them. |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
2535
|
Posted - 2015.06.18 04:12:39 -
[47] - Quote
Robert Caldera wrote:
I told you, man =˙éget ready for worst trashtalk replies here, people love npc protecting them.
Ironic.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
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Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
673
|
Posted - 2015.06.18 04:17:25 -
[48] - Quote
Robert Caldera wrote:haha yeah, so if there is a marauder ratting in the depth of branch, bring your own marauder there if you want that shiny killmail, noob lmao.
I told you, man =˙éget ready for worst trashtalk replies here, people love npc protecting them.
About as much as cheap shot artists liked picking off ratters with heavy npc support. Noticed they didn't whine as much during these years. odd that.
PLus some people here replying seem to pvp'ers. I used to be one. these low grade kills I never claimed with any pride. they were crap kills I got to get my checkmark in the I pvp box for the week/month. TBH I preferred meetings on fairer terms. PLayer(s) actually pvp fit (while I felt bad about the sleaziness of it I wasn't nice enough to go you know this guy is kin therm spec in say serp space....I won't shoot for his gaping wide em hole if caldari), not banged up from ratting....and actually wanting to be there to pvp whole heartedly. |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
755
|
Posted - 2015.06.18 04:28:35 -
[49] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:Mike Voidstar wrote:By the logic of the OP, the rats should have just left 20 minutes ago.
You need to bring a ship equivalent to what the ratters is flying. It's a good mechanic because it promotes fights, not kills.
If you stopped constantly looking for easy kills you might find more fights.
No one should be immune to the environment. Wait, did you just suggest that since NPC's are acting like players (they are not), they should have warped off once they realized they were losing the fight? That the ratter should have to fit a point to keep them on grid? People complain on one hand about null sec care bear space being too safe, while disregarding that this is one thing that makes it too safe.
No, I am highlighting the absurdity of the OP complaining that rats don't act according to his logic. If they behaved rationally they would have left as soon as the fight went south. Even with a point you could not get them all, and after proving they will never break your tank they should just leave.
Rats are part of the environment. That's why they call it PvE. No one should be immune to the environment. Fit to survive in your hunting grounds, or die horribly for being unprepared, just like the guys you hunt. |
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
1010
|
Posted - 2015.06.18 04:38:24 -
[50] - Quote
yep, plant a cloaky cyno bomber alt in system and get some friends in BO if yo want the ratter dead, thats the style of play ccp wants you to follow. solo roaming was too easy. |
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Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
811
|
Posted - 2015.06.18 04:39:38 -
[51] - Quote
Robert Caldera wrote:haha yeah, so if there is a marauder ratting in the depth of branch, bring your own marauder there if you want that shiny killmail, ez noob lmao, l2p gb2w.
I told you, man =˙éget ready for worst trashtalk replies here, people love npc protecting them.
I stopped solo roams through 0.0 farming grounds the day they changed npc mechanics. yo now need an afk cloaker cyno alt + bunch of dudes on blackops nowadays.
You wouldn't have been able to kill a marauder solo in any ship that couldn't tank the rats to begin with...
I would also argue that you have been using NPCs as added damage, webs, neuts, and scrams for years... Now that there's a chance you might get shot, you tear up all over the forums about it....
2 years ago (or however long) you would have posted a comment on a thread complaining about gankers using NPCs to assist dps by saying something along the lines of. "Haha, silly carebear... L2P or GTFO"
So, why are you here crying about the very same thing that you likely told them to quit crying about? |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
811
|
Posted - 2015.06.18 04:41:51 -
[52] - Quote
Robert Caldera wrote:yep, plant a cloaky cyno bomber alt in system and get some friends in BO if yo want the ratter dead, thats the style of play ccp wants you to follow. solo roaming was too easy.
If you can't fit a ship capable of taking down a player, simply because NPCs are attacking you, then you're playing the wrong game... |
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
1010
|
Posted - 2015.06.18 04:57:57 -
[53] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:
If you can't fit a ship capable of taking down a player, simply because NPCs are attacking you, then you're playing the wrong game...
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5827636#post5827636 |
Grinder2210
Most Unknown
36
|
Posted - 2015.06.18 05:02:19 -
[54] - Quote
Kitty Bear wrote:The NPC's don't care. They are not your friend, you are not their friend for shooting the same target as them.
You are an easier to kill threat that is doing lots of damage I'm sure you can work out the NPC aggression mechanics from that. If you can't .. I suggest you do some more research, and educate yourself.
In short, it's not getting fixed because it's not broken.
Start with best line ever for this post why dont you
The NPC dont care Whan in fact the NPC's do care that the intire problem being pointed out in the post
They are mission rats We are human players no matter what we are doing in eve the NPC shouldnt be giveing one side or another any sort of advantage or disadvantage NPC's should be working the same way not matter what mod are on your ship No matter what your doing. Jumping agro is fine, However we the human player shouldnt at anypoint be capable of control over said Jump
Oh and to the people saying Oh but there pve ships ...You fit your ship you flew it out you knew were you are and the risks you are takeing You in fact had the exact same lvl of control over that situation as the Combat pilot shooting you
Balance is needed here |
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
1010
|
Posted - 2015.06.18 05:15:08 -
[55] - Quote
Grinder2210 wrote: They are mission rats We are human players no matter what we are doing in eve the NPC shouldnt be giveing one side or another any sort of advantage or disadvantage
the only reason why you was able to engage and score such a kill in the past in a pvp ship even remotely capable to surviuve in deep enemy territory (ratting backwaters), before npc changes, was NPC keeping aggro on the ratter. Yeah, thats the way CCPs weird game worked, if you like it or not.. You wouldnt expect to bring anything non-cloaky, better tanked than the ratter DPS ship, so possibly a marauder or faction battleship into those regions by yourself and survive the trip, not getting caught and ganked 5j into 0.0. Thats not how the game worked, but this is exactly what you need today if you want to do it without a cloaking cyno alt camping ratting systems for days + gang of black ops. |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
756
|
Posted - 2015.06.18 05:24:44 -
[56] - Quote
[quote=Grinder2210NPC's should be working the same way not matter what mod are on your ship No matter what your doing. Jumping agro is fine, However we the human player shouldnt at anypoint be capable of control over said Jump [/quote]
You really should look into what balance actually means. It's the environment. It works according to the same rules for both players. We can not alter those rules in any way, but we can control our own actions.
You don't need a maurader to kill a maurader- they rely on local active tanks, makeing them pretty vulnerable to energy neutralizers. Most are even kind enough to tackle themselves. You do need a ship that can survive the space it's sitting in.
The only people that think the only way to get a fight in this game is by using a afk camping cloak ship + funk are the same crying gankbears who thought it was fair play to scream and Neuf a ratter in a ship with no guns and no tank |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy Caldari State
811
|
Posted - 2015.06.18 05:27:23 -
[57] - Quote
Robert Caldera wrote:Grinder2210 wrote: They are mission rats We are human players no matter what we are doing in eve the NPC shouldnt be giveing one side or another any sort of advantage or disadvantage
the only reason why you were ever able to engage and score such a kill in the past in a pvp ship even remotely capable of surviuving a trip into deep enemy territory (ratting backwaters), before npc changes, was NPC keeping aggro on the ratter. Yeah, thats the way CCPs weird game worked, if you like it or not.. You would never expect to bring anything non-cloaky, non-nano, better tanked than the ratter himself DPS ship, so possibly a marauder or faction battleship into those regions by yourself and survive the trip, not getting caught and ganked 5j into 0.0. Thats not how the game worked, but this is exactly what you need today if you wanted to do it (without a cloaking cyno alt camping ratting systems for days + gang of black ops).
How did the ratter manage to get his ship out there then?
Look, everything that has been suggested as to why this is broken are very literally all things that ratters have done. They've been forced to tank NPCs and gankers, they've taken their ships through low and null, they've gotten away from people, they've been caught by people and basically everything else that the ganker has had to deal with. They've likely been caught and gotten away from people in battleships.
The only problem I see here is that someone is upset because they can't kill a BS with a bomber due to the rats... Here's a thought, in what pvp scenario would the bomber be able to solo a pvp fitted BS?
As I have mentioned, many sites are not doable with a fit built for viable pvp... Just as pvp is not doable in a viable pve fit..
If you want to take the challenge, then fit for it.
That, or drop a bubble at the station/gate and catch him when he leaves.. Or can you not beat them without the added NPCs? |
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
1010
|
Posted - 2015.06.18 05:37:33 -
[58] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote: The only people that think the only way to get a fight in this game
I responded to a guy all the time, who thinks eve is about fight. /o\
Joe Risalo wrote: How did the ratter manage to get his ship out there then?
he lived there? In safety of 20k blob of other people around him, he was part of?
Joe Risalo wrote: Look, everything that has been suggested as to why this is broken are very literally all things that ratters have done. They've been forced to tank NPCs and gankers
which was fine if they got caught despite of all the tools and means around them to their advantage - vs. some little guy in a squishy ship who managed to evade gatecamps and other kind of threats alone vs. said blob.
Joe Risalo wrote: , they've taken their ships through low and null, they've gotten away from people, they've been caught by people and basically everything else that the ganker has had to deal with. They've likely been caught and gotten away from people in battleships.
more like they've shipped their stuff down there with a jump freighter/carrier, like everyone else?
Joe Risalo wrote: The only problem I see here is that someone is upset because they can't kill a BS with a bomber due to the rats... Here's a thought, in what pvp scenario would the bomber be able to solo a pvp fitted BS?
the problem what I see is that CCP practically removed (for idiots, read: they made it so hard that its not viable or realistic anymore) a whole huge branch of pvp, tons of people were kept busy with since tranq went live. |
Tabyll Altol
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
93
|
Posted - 2015.06.18 06:13:36 -
[59] - Quote
Wrong post |
Kitty Bear
Disturbed Friends Of Diazepam Disturbed Acquaintance
1473
|
Posted - 2015.06.18 09:06:29 -
[60] - Quote
McChicken Combo HalfMayo wrote:I'm not sure how they should deal with rat aggro in these situations but it's odd that rats pour their damage onto the player who's killing the guy that's mass murdering them.
There are ways to deal with it but so what? You could double the HP on freighters and there would still be ways to kill them. That doesn't mean it's balanced.
Calling the rat behavior player emulation is also a bit silly. If a fleet of players were being successfully solo'd by a single enemy they wouldn't switch aggro to the guy that arrives that has a good chance of killing their enemy.
Since the rats don't provide much risk to the ratter itself, the rats effectively act as an NPC security force for a human player while running sites and missions. That's no good. Try to imagine if rats started successfully stopping ganks in highsec mining belts. NPC involvement in player affairs should be minimized when possible.
Some NPC's now use a watered down version of the sleeper aggression mechanic
High Priority E-War activation Remote Rep activation Damage (to npc)
Medium Priority Hull size difference
The flip side to the "npc's as security" is the OP expecting npc's to add to his DPS and then crying because they didn't
All he had to do was not activate that e-war module and he would probably have been fine |
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