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Mr Mirage
AWE Corporation Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.11.24 00:20:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Mr Mirage on 24/11/2006 00:29:05 I was just thinking about some problems with auto-cannon/artillery/hurricane, and how the wrong thing got nerfed etc.
'problem': pg difference between arty and AC is to great. This leads to some uber AC plate/double repper setups.
fix 1.0: reduce arty pg, reduce ship (arty platform) pg side effect: people like amarr start to fit artys and have huge cap/pg for tank.
patch: restrict ships to their racial turrets
result: pg on minmy ships can be better fine tuned for versatile AC or arty ships, but exclude excessive platage/reppage.
Amarr have something else to whine about
Flamage for removing 'think outside the box' gatling-pulse-rifter possibilities.
oversights? |
Hoshi
DAB RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.24 01:04:00 -
[2]
As you say it removes think out side of the box setups. CCP is working to remove predictability not increase it.
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Sakura Nihil
Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2006.11.24 01:10:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Hoshi As you say it removes think out side of the box setups. CCP is working to remove predictability not increase it.
Seconded, let people take the chance and vary setups rather than just lock people in .
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Pressure Line
Amarr Pirates of Destruction Union Pirate Coalition
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Posted - 2006.11.24 02:37:00 -
[4]
only if EVERY ship capable of mounting weapons gets some sort of damage (be it damage or rof) bonus.
but seriously, amarr pilots already do fit AC's and arties. cos lasers are teh suck
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Mr Mirage
AWE Corporation Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.11.24 03:16:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Pressure Line only if EVERY ship capable of mounting weapons gets some sort of damage (be it damage or rof) bonus.
...
I fail to see how that has much to do with my suggestion. If you change to a different race's turrets, you lose any possible bonus anyway.
As for lasers sucking, that's a seperate issue and should be addressed as such imo.
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xHalcyonx
Amarr CyberDyne Industries Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2006.11.24 03:22:00 -
[6]
The simple answer is that this would be a bad change. It would be bad because this game is all about the choice of diversity. You can get almost any mod on almost every ship. That's what drew me to EVE in the first place.
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Twin blade
Minmatar The Caldari Confederation
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Posted - 2006.11.24 03:22:00 -
[7]
Why not add a ship built bonus to there own racial turrets.
Minny ship would say only use 200 pg for a 720 Amarr ships would use the Full 250 Pg for the 720
alter the bonus to stop the Super tanks flying around with insane ganks.
Hurricane is a good ship but large PG allows a tank and gank when using AC simple fix.
Say cut its PG to 1000 and give it a bonus to 650/720 Art cannon PG use that way it can still use Art but won't be able to load AC for a mega tank and gank. !
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Mr Mirage
AWE Corporation Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.11.24 04:01:00 -
[8]
That seems a more convoluted way to acheive the same goal. Are you suggesting adding more ship bonuses just to fix something non bonus related? If not, you are taking away a bonus from, in this case, minmatar ships, to stop other overpowered ships. Nerfing minmatar and keeping <other> balanced! If you are, then all of a sudden minmatar arty ships get more bonuses than any other equivalent ship. You'd be able to see the whine threads from the moon
I understand the point about diversity (an old, old wooden ship?), but i think restricting turret types is about as restrictive as only allowing one mwd.
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Laboratus
Gallente BGG Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.24 08:57:00 -
[9]
Ships already are tweaked for their racial turrets:
They get a ship bonus for it. The Power grid and CPU are designed to fit the racial guns. The cultures with more contact point have similiar fittings in guns (gal - cald, min - amarr)
Try for example fitting 6 tachs on a Domi, or 7 Tachs on a Mega. Ain't happening. Too little grid. 8 425mm rails on an Apoc? CPU is too tight.
At the moment it is possible, but not convenient to fit other guns then the racial guns. But as the game has no clerics, wizards, or any other classes, restricting EQ to paladins would be dumb. It's a sandbox, and we like it. ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats |
Tachy
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Posted - 2006.11.24 09:01:00 -
[10]
That would take away one of the beautiful aspects of EVE.
We can fit whatever we want and use it as long as we have the skills.
That some systems can be used on ship classes that should not be able to fit them - from a design aspect - is another story and the devs worked on some modules for the last 4 years to balance their use. --*=*=*--
The cause for this is not yet known, but we do have a possible fix in testing. by Sharkbait | 2006.09.20 |
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Taran Blake
De Re Metallica
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Posted - 2006.11.24 09:04:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Hoshi As you say it removes think out side of the box setups. CCP is working to remove predictability not increase it.
*cough*
Kinetic Missile Damage Bonus
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Laboratus
Gallente BGG Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.24 09:22:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Taran Blake
Originally by: Hoshi As you say it removes think out side of the box setups. CCP is working to remove predictability not increase it.
*cough*
Kinetic Missile Damage Bonus
Thermal missile bonus on Gallantean ship with missile boni. EM boni on Amarr.
Etc. You can change damage type, still. But take a hit in dps. But it can be done... ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats |
Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.24 09:38:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 24/11/2006 09:42:25
This is about the "nerf 1600 mm plates" thing on minmatar ships:
I think things are pretty much fine the way it is. If you fit artys, you wont have room for a lot of tank, and you wont need to since you are far away. And if you fit autocannons, you have room for a good tank, which is needed since you are going up close with someone and taking heavy damage.
Its not a problem in my eyes. Minmatar ships already gets teared to pieces up close to a gallente ship, plates or no plates. I think things are fine the way they are (as a minmatar player).
Also with Kali and longer lasting fights, reppers are better than plates imo.
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Aakron
Hybrid Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.11.24 10:45:00 -
[14]
versatility is what makes eve, eve, cookie cutter setups everywhere are bad enough, let people choose how to fit their ships. ---
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Twin blade
Minmatar The Caldari Confederation
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Posted - 2006.11.24 14:38:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Mr Mirage That seems a more convoluted way to acheive the same goal. Are you suggesting adding more ship bonuses just to fix something non bonus related? If not, you are taking away a bonus from, in this case, minmatar ships, to stop other overpowered ships. Nerfing minmatar and keeping <other> balanced! If you are, then all of a sudden minmatar arty ships get more bonuses than any other equivalent ship. You'd be able to see the whine threads from the moon
I understand the point about diversity (an old, old wooden ship?), but i think restricting turret types is about as restrictive as only allowing one mwd.
No i ment a fixed 3rd bonus that lower's the PG for Art cannons only just shave a bit of PG off.
I mean look at the new minny BC 1600mm plate and a good tank on top of a good ammout of damage from AC's is a tad unbalanced.
The fixed bonus would allow the PG to be made smaller to stop that but still allow the use of 720's can could be given the 7th gun slot back. !
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Hiro Kazamatsuri
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Posted - 2006.11.24 15:18:00 -
[16]
Remind me my first Rifter !
2 autocannons 1 laser (cant remember which one) 1 assault launcher (the very old one where only 3 rockets fit in it and do pathetic damage, 10 per rocket!)
I thought it was cool to have a laser to down shields !
ouch my cap :p
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Melicien Tetro
Gallente FATAL REVELATIONS Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.24 15:25:00 -
[17]
We could actually just take out mods altogether, and just let you choose from like 3 builds for each ship.
Weeeeeeeeeeee. I tried to fight a shark with a pistol underwater once, and I'll be ****ed if he didn't laugh at me and eat me. Sharks need a ******* nerf. True story.
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Tennotsukai
Minmatar Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2006.11.24 15:44:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Twin blade
Hurricane is a good ship but large PG allows a tank and gank when using AC simple fix.
Say cut its PG to 1000 and give it a bonus to 650/720 Art cannon PG use that way it can still use Art but won't be able to load AC for a mega tank and gank.
what is it with people wanting the hurricane to be an arty ship?
Its must be the "ooo double damage bonus... i fink i will pwn with arties.."
Leave the **** thing alone... if you want to fly an arty boat use the cyclone.. leave the Cane alone.
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Thor Xian
Vertigo One E.A.R.T.H. Federation
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Posted - 2006.11.24 16:05:00 -
[19]
I don't see the problem with plates on AC boats.
Make the racial advantage (speed?) more important and I'm sure you will see less plates on minnie ships. That and make shield tanking worth it (ie more **** mid slots).
~Thor Xian, Material Defender
"Victory is the weakness of the enemy."
Corp/Alliance Services |
Laythun
Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.24 16:07:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Pressure Line only if EVERY ship capable of mounting weapons gets some sort of damage (be it damage or rof) bonus.
but seriously, amarr pilots already do fit AC's and arties. cos lasers are teh suck
No.
We dont.
CEI's own Undercover Brother It's great being Amarr, aint it?Ö |
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Mr Mirage
AWE Corporation Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.11.24 18:23:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Thor Xian I don't see the problem with plates on AC boats.
Make the racial advantage (speed?) more important and I'm sure you will see less plates on minnie ships. That and make shield tanking worth it (ie more **** mid slots).
From what I have read, the problem wasn't just the plate, it was the rest of the tank as well.
Why use the 'cane as an arty boat? Hmmm, now someone is saying don't even bother trying to fit some of your own guns, it's not supposed to be.
I thought minmy were meant to be versatile? Hurricane has, or at least had, enough pg for 7 artillery, so why not stick em on?
Clearly there are a lot more people mixing turrets than I thought. If there weren't many, or they only did it for a giraffe, my suggestion wouldn't change eve lives, but would make minnie ship design easier.
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Grey Area
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.24 19:33:00 -
[22]
If I was being cynical, I'd say this was posted by a missile user, to try and give you an idea of how we feel.
"Turret" hardpoint = choice of 6 weapon types
"Missile" hardpoint = choice of 2 weapon types
If CCP want to remove predictability...why not remove the distinction, and just allow generic "weapon" hardpoints? Still keep the ship bonuses the same, but take off the training wheels... ---
I don't mind you disagreeing with me. Just don't say I don't have the SKILLS to comment until you've looked at them. |
Beringe
Caldari Raptus Regaliter
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Posted - 2006.11.24 20:47:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Grey Area
If CCP want to remove predictability...why not remove the distinction, and just allow generic "weapon" hardpoints? Still keep the ship bonuses the same, but take off the training wheels...
Three words: Eight launcher raven.
I fly both Caldari and Gallente, and I feel that missiles are more versatile than turrets, in most cases. ------------------------------------------- "Sarcasm and irony are not to be used by the uninitiated."
--Daitan Beringe, honorary director in charge of bottles-- |
Grey Area
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.24 23:40:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Beringe
Originally by: Grey Area
If CCP want to remove predictability...why not remove the distinction, and just allow generic "weapon" hardpoints? Still keep the ship bonuses the same, but take off the training wheels...
Three words: Eight launcher raven.
I fly both Caldari and Gallente, and I feel that missiles are more versatile than turrets, in most cases.
Have you checked to see whether or not you could FIT eight launchers? I think something somewhere else would have to be sacrificed...sure the DPS would be up...but tanking or damage mods would be compromised. ---
I don't mind you disagreeing with me. Just don't say I don't have the SKILLS to comment until you've looked at them. |
Twin blade
Minmatar The Caldari Confederation
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Posted - 2006.11.25 00:56:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Tennotsukai
Originally by: Twin blade
Hurricane is a good ship but large PG allows a tank and gank when using AC simple fix.
Say cut its PG to 1000 and give it a bonus to 650/720 Art cannon PG use that way it can still use Art but won't be able to load AC for a mega tank and gank.
what is it with people wanting the hurricane to be an arty ship?
Its must be the "ooo double damage bonus... i fink i will pwn with arties.."
Leave the **** thing alone... if you want to fly an arty boat use the cyclone.. leave the Cane alone.
The cyclone is a ******* waste of time and space and is as much good as a burst in any fight PVP.
The hurricane on the other hand made a great Arty ship had the damage and the guns to be good unlike the cyclone.
The hurricane armor tank's making it worth using in PVP again unlike the cyclone.
The hurricane could all so be a great AC ship OMG again unlike the cyclone.
!
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Tetovo
Caldari Black Lance Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.25 04:46:00 -
[26]
Or we could change lasers so fitting ACs on my apoc doesn't look as attractive as before. The reason you see projectilepocs was because 1. Apoc has only a cap bonus to lasers and projectiles use no cap and 2. lasers suck. Eliminate one of those two conditions and almost every amarr pilot will be using lasers. As I see it projectile apoc/proh/maller is a side effect of lasers sucking, not a side effect of the high PG on those ships and low pg reqs of projectiles.
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Mr Mirage
AWE Corporation Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.11.25 05:44:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Tetovo Or we could change lasers so fitting ACs on my apoc doesn't look as attractive as before. The reason you see projectilepocs was because 1. Apoc has only a cap bonus to lasers and projectiles use no cap and 2. lasers suck. Eliminate one of those two conditions and almost every amarr pilot will be using lasers. As I see it projectile apoc/proh/maller is a side effect of lasers sucking, not a side effect of the high PG on those ships and low pg reqs of projectiles.
But that still leaves the vast pg differential between ACs and artillery, which leads to 1600mm plated ruptures and the rest. Sure, it's nice to be able to vary setups on a ship so much, but it's a lot harder to keep in balance, and something I get the feeling tux et al would rather avoid.
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Tetovo
Caldari Black Lance Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.25 20:40:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Mr Mirage
Originally by: Tetovo Or we could change lasers so fitting ACs on my apoc doesn't look as attractive as before. The reason you see projectilepocs was because 1. Apoc has only a cap bonus to lasers and projectiles use no cap and 2. lasers suck. Eliminate one of those two conditions and almost every amarr pilot will be using lasers. As I see it projectile apoc/proh/maller is a side effect of lasers sucking, not a side effect of the high PG on those ships and low pg reqs of projectiles.
But that still leaves the vast pg differential between ACs and artillery, which leads to 1600mm plated ruptures and the rest. Sure, it's nice to be able to vary setups on a ship so much, but it's a lot harder to keep in balance, and something I get the feeling tux et al would rather avoid.
Give Arty boats bad autocannon attributes. Looka t the moa rax, with 4 turret slots the moa has only 4 less grid because it's a rail ship. It could easily fit a rack of blasters instead of rails BUT it's slower and heavier than the rax. Add on the mwd bonus andf its clear which is the blaster ship and which is the rails. The problem with minnie is even the artillery ships are faster and lgihter than the close range equivalent of the other races. However...adding a 1600 plate on a rupture makes it a a cow. It's simply comes down to choosing your fights. The rupture gives up its ability to choose engagements by being lighter and faster than most other cruisers to have an uber tank. Now, it might be worth bumpinh the grid of projectiles up and likewise the grid of minnie ships. Also making the bigger autocannons worth fitting would be a good idea. As it is their worse tracking doesnt overcome the slight gain in DPS.
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