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Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1463
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Posted - 2015.06.26 23:55:05 -
[91] - Quote
Ares Desideratus wrote:Crosi Wesdo wrote:Ares Desideratus wrote:Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Dont think even a remotely a fair way to look at it.
Its called a battle report, not a loss report.
So we should put spy alts, , covert ops alts and anything else that may have a minor passive effect on a battle onto killmails too, then, right? Within reason, why not? Because it is not within reason. You might as well put the miners and industrialists who built your weapons onto the killmail, too, then. No, I think that what's within reason, is that anyone who directly affects a ship with a module, should be put on the killmail. You can't start putting people on killmails who had literally no participation in the battle, and that includes the fleet booster. He's not in the battle, and he doesn't have to be anywhere near it. He's riding off to the sun smoking a cigar.
Thats some crazy slippery slope fallacy there mate.
If you are performing a direct role in a fight (which includes boosters and logistics), then its a fair consideration to mention them on killmails. I understand you have a stupid idea of what killboards should be, i just dont understand your motivation. |
Ares Desideratus
RANDOM STARSHIP GUILD
267
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Posted - 2015.06.26 23:58:21 -
[92] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:Ares Desideratus wrote:Crosi Wesdo wrote:Ares Desideratus wrote: A kill is a kill. But the way killmails work currently, you take one kill, and you have to multiply that kill by the amount of people who whor'ed on it, so that every single killmailwhore gets a "kill", while in reality there was only one kill.
That would only be misrepresenting, if there was a single player out there that wasnt aware of that fact. No, it is misrepresenting, because that's the way the killboards view it. If all the players are aware of the fact then there is no reason to keep it the way it is. It's simply a tool to build up blob-F1-players's killboard statistics. But there is no reason to change it. Everyone is already aware that some kills are solo and some are not. All the details are on the mail. If you could clarify what problem you are trying to fix i could start understanding you. As i undestand it, you want every kill to look like a solo fight? The problem is players are rewarded with kills that they didn't get. You shouldn't be acknowledged as having destroyed a ship if you merely contributed to the destruction of the ship.
I don't want every kill to look like a solo fight. As I said, you can acknowledge player participation on the kill and contribution on the kill without stating on their killboard that they were the ones who got the kill.
You're right there's no reason to fix it. There's no reason to do anything actually. Might as well just kill ourselves then. Oh wait there's no reason to do that either. Oh well.
Oh wait, there is a reason. Yeah, the killboards don't make sense. We should probably try fixing things that don't make sense. |
Master Sergeant MacRobert
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Multicultural F1 Brigade
205
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Posted - 2015.06.26 23:58:57 -
[93] - Quote
Ares Desideratus wrote: There are ways to reward and acknowledge a player's contributions to a kill without actually rewarding him with a kill. Simply put, you shouldn't get over 1,000 kills on your killboard simply because you did 1% of the damage on a thousand different killmails. A minor recognition of your participation in said killmails, however, would of course be acceptable.
Killmails and killboards are completely separate entities and need to be treated as such.
However, it's pretty unfair to expect anyone to develop a killboard that is a better story teller than the current crop when the killmails are so restricted.
In addition, I'd be surprised if you've never been involved in a nice kill that took a very inventive cov-ops probing tackler to land the prey before the rest of a fleet blobbed it and did more than 1% damage. You can start filtering out single aspects and loose much of the story.
One of the skills I would celebrate most is the art of catching a target. They might not do any damage (eg: first interdictor on the field on a supercap kill).
"Remedy this situation or you shall live out the rest of your life in a pain amplifier"
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Yang Aurilen
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
686
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Posted - 2015.06.27 00:00:20 -
[94] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:Ares Desideratus wrote:Crosi Wesdo wrote:Ares Desideratus wrote:Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Dont think even a remotely a fair way to look at it.
Its called a battle report, not a loss report.
So we should put spy alts, , covert ops alts and anything else that may have a minor passive effect on a battle onto killmails too, then, right? Within reason, why not? Because it is not within reason. You might as well put the miners and industrialists who built your weapons onto the killmail, too, then. No, I think that what's within reason, is that anyone who directly affects a ship with a module, should be put on the killmail. You can't start putting people on killmails who had literally no participation in the battle, and that includes the fleet booster. He's not in the battle, and he doesn't have to be anywhere near it. He's riding off to the sun smoking a cigar. Thats some crazy slippery slope fallacy there mate. If you are performing a direct role in a fight (which includes boosters and logistics), then its a fair consideration to mention them on killmails. I understand you have a stupid idea of what killboards should be, i just dont understand your motivation.
It's just a case of sour grapes. Or just plain butthurt that their E-Bushido was not honoured. As much as I hate your linked garmur links are fine atm. It was fun making special snowflake fits trying to catch you.
Post with your NPC alt main and not your main main alt!
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Ares Desideratus
RANDOM STARSHIP GUILD
267
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Posted - 2015.06.27 00:03:31 -
[95] - Quote
Master Sergeant MacRobert wrote:Ares Desideratus wrote: There are ways to reward and acknowledge a player's contributions to a kill without actually rewarding him with a kill. Simply put, you shouldn't get over 1,000 kills on your killboard simply because you did 1% of the damage on a thousand different killmails. A minor recognition of your participation in said killmails, however, would of course be acceptable.
Killmails and killboards are completely separate entities and need to be treated as such. However, it's pretty unfair to expect anyone to develop a killboard that is a better story teller than the current crop when the killmails are so restricted. In addition, I'd be surprised if you've never been involved in a nice kill that took a very inventive cov-ops probing tackler to land the prey before the rest of a fleet blobbed it and did more than 1% damage. You can start filtering out single aspects and loose much of the story. One of the skills I would celebrate most is the art of catching a target. They might not do any damage (eg: first interdictor on the field on a supercap kill). You can tell the story without lying about it, though. The killboards state that Random Player got a kill while in the actual game all he did was tracking disrupt the target for two seconds while somebody else got the kill. To say that the player who tracking disrupted him for two seconds got the kill is an outright lie, but that's what the killboards say, all of the time.
You can still show who contributed to the kill. Just don't give them a "kill" on their statistics that they didn't get. |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1463
|
Posted - 2015.06.27 00:07:22 -
[96] - Quote
Ares Desideratus wrote:Master Sergeant MacRobert wrote:Ares Desideratus wrote: There are ways to reward and acknowledge a player's contributions to a kill without actually rewarding him with a kill. Simply put, you shouldn't get over 1,000 kills on your killboard simply because you did 1% of the damage on a thousand different killmails. A minor recognition of your participation in said killmails, however, would of course be acceptable.
Killmails and killboards are completely separate entities and need to be treated as such. However, it's pretty unfair to expect anyone to develop a killboard that is a better story teller than the current crop when the killmails are so restricted. In addition, I'd be surprised if you've never been involved in a nice kill that took a very inventive cov-ops probing tackler to land the prey before the rest of a fleet blobbed it and did more than 1% damage. You can start filtering out single aspects and loose much of the story. One of the skills I would celebrate most is the art of catching a target. They might not do any damage (eg: first interdictor on the field on a supercap kill). You can tell the story without lying about it, though. The killboards state that Random Player got a kill while in the actual game all he did was tracking disrupt the target for two seconds while somebody else got the kill. To say that the player who tracking disrupted him for two seconds got the kill is an outright lie, but that's what the killboards say, all of the time. You can still show who contributed to the kill. Just don't give them a "kill" on their statistics that they didn't get.
removing information from killmails doesnt help tell a wider story, by definition.
Only adding information does.
No one that has any experience in EVE is currently being mislead by killboard statistics and what they represent.
Your true motivations here are clearly hidden because what you have said has zero consistency. |
Ares Desideratus
RANDOM STARSHIP GUILD
267
|
Posted - 2015.06.27 00:12:29 -
[97] - Quote
You don't have to remove any of the information from the killmail. I never once said that.
What you can do is give players a "kill" on their killboard when they were the one who in fact got the kill. But not when they whored on the kill with some electronic module. |
Master Sergeant MacRobert
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Multicultural F1 Brigade
205
|
Posted - 2015.06.27 00:20:36 -
[98] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:Ares Desideratus wrote:Master Sergeant MacRobert wrote:Ares Desideratus wrote: There are ways to reward and acknowledge a player's contributions to a kill without actually rewarding him with a kill. Simply put, you shouldn't get over 1,000 kills on your killboard simply because you did 1% of the damage on a thousand different killmails. A minor recognition of your participation in said killmails, however, would of course be acceptable.
Killmails and killboards are completely separate entities and need to be treated as such. However, it's pretty unfair to expect anyone to develop a killboard that is a better story teller than the current crop when the killmails are so restricted. In addition, I'd be surprised if you've never been involved in a nice kill that took a very inventive cov-ops probing tackler to land the prey before the rest of a fleet blobbed it and did more than 1% damage. You can start filtering out single aspects and loose much of the story. One of the skills I would celebrate most is the art of catching a target. They might not do any damage (eg: first interdictor on the field on a supercap kill). You can tell the story without lying about it, though. The killboards state that Random Player got a kill while in the actual game all he did was tracking disrupt the target for two seconds while somebody else got the kill. To say that the player who tracking disrupted him for two seconds got the kill is an outright lie, but that's what the killboards say, all of the time. You can still show who contributed to the kill. Just don't give them a "kill" on their statistics that they didn't get. removing information from killmails doesnt help tell a wider story, by definition. Only adding information does. No one that has any experience in EVE is currently being mislead by killboard statistics and what they represent. Your true motivations here are clearly hidden because what you have said has zero consistency.
It is the story that is important.
If I can browse a killboard that has access to timestamps for actions and lists of effects on ships involved (not just the target) it gives me a quick overview on the story of the fight.
Why do you think so many people record and show their PvP footage - and even this is limited from a single POV?
Once again. Data on a killboard is down to the Killboard developer, not CCP.
However, I am all in favour of CCP improving killmail data that is API passed on. The current kill data feels like it's from the 2nd generation kill stats from 2006 or so.
Sometimes a single jam cycle from a Griffin is the only reason the only ship holding point was able to survive and kill the target. Just another example of lost story by using a filter (censor) on certain attributes.
"Remedy this situation or you shall live out the rest of your life in a pain amplifier"
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Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1463
|
Posted - 2015.06.27 00:29:00 -
[99] - Quote
Master Sergeant MacRobert wrote:Crosi Wesdo wrote:Ares Desideratus wrote:Master Sergeant MacRobert wrote:Ares Desideratus wrote: There are ways to reward and acknowledge a player's contributions to a kill without actually rewarding him with a kill. Simply put, you shouldn't get over 1,000 kills on your killboard simply because you did 1% of the damage on a thousand different killmails. A minor recognition of your participation in said killmails, however, would of course be acceptable.
Killmails and killboards are completely separate entities and need to be treated as such. However, it's pretty unfair to expect anyone to develop a killboard that is a better story teller than the current crop when the killmails are so restricted. In addition, I'd be surprised if you've never been involved in a nice kill that took a very inventive cov-ops probing tackler to land the prey before the rest of a fleet blobbed it and did more than 1% damage. You can start filtering out single aspects and loose much of the story. One of the skills I would celebrate most is the art of catching a target. They might not do any damage (eg: first interdictor on the field on a supercap kill). You can tell the story without lying about it, though. The killboards state that Random Player got a kill while in the actual game all he did was tracking disrupt the target for two seconds while somebody else got the kill. To say that the player who tracking disrupted him for two seconds got the kill is an outright lie, but that's what the killboards say, all of the time. You can still show who contributed to the kill. Just don't give them a "kill" on their statistics that they didn't get. removing information from killmails doesnt help tell a wider story, by definition. Only adding information does. No one that has any experience in EVE is currently being mislead by killboard statistics and what they represent. Your true motivations here are clearly hidden because what you have said has zero consistency. It is the story that is important. If I can browse a killboard that has access to timestamps for actions and lists of effects on ships involved (not just the target) it gives me a quick overview on the story of the fight. Why do you think so many people record and show their PvP footage - and even this is limited from a single POV? Once again. Data on a killboard is down to the Killboard developer, not CCP. However, I am all in favour of CCP improving killmail data that is API passed on. The current kill data feels like it's from the 2nd generation kill stats from 2006 or so. Sometimes a single jam cycle from a Griffin is the only reason the only ship holding point was able to survive and kill the target. Just another example of lost story by using a filter (censor) on certain attributes.
Why are you replying to me? i already gave that exact example of how killboards could be imporved.
I think ares wants the total kills to represent final blows rather than kills participated in. If thats all then whatver. Seems like something someone who already puts too much credence into killboards would worry about. Also seems like a lot of fleet roles would never get a final blow so kill totals would only really represent those who only fly dps who might never get a final blow should other roles not be fulfilled. |
Ares Desideratus
RANDOM STARSHIP GUILD
267
|
Posted - 2015.06.27 00:37:08 -
[100] - Quote
I apologize for my unintelligible posts.
But yeah, that's basically what I was suggesting. Killboards shouldn't give players kills for things they did not kill. |
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Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1463
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Posted - 2015.06.27 00:40:54 -
[101] - Quote
Ares Desideratus wrote:I apologize for my unintelligible posts.
But yeah, that's basically what I was suggesting. Killboards shouldn't give players kills for things they did not kill.
You realise that final blows are more about alpha and timing than skill or deserving?
Ive seen more than a couple of archon kills with a t1 frigate or logistics as final blow.
So you have yet to explain why this notion is more optimal, specially when there is literally no one that thinks ive solod 14,000 kills when they look at my killboard. |
Ares Desideratus
RANDOM STARSHIP GUILD
267
|
Posted - 2015.06.27 00:50:27 -
[102] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:Ares Desideratus wrote:I apologize for my unintelligible posts.
But yeah, that's basically what I was suggesting. Killboards shouldn't give players kills for things they did not kill. You realise that final blows are more about alpha and timing than skill or deserving? Ive seen more than a couple of archon kills with a t1 frigate or logistics as final blow. So you have yet to explain why this notion is more optimal, specially when there is literally no one that thinks ive solod 14,000 kills when they look at my killboard. Yeah. I don't think it really matters. I think the truth is more important. Whoever gets the kill in the game should get the "kill" on the killboard.
But as Master Sergeant Macrobert pointed out, data on a killboard is down to killboard developer and not CCP, which I didn't really even consider before I started posting about this.
It doesn't change my view. But it makes me realize the people who run the killboards simply don't care and it will most likely never change; they will continue to lie to support the blob.
By the way, no one thinks you've soloed 14,000 kills when they look at your killboard. The problem is that is exactly what the killboard states, and it is a lie. |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1463
|
Posted - 2015.06.27 00:59:31 -
[103] - Quote
Ares Desideratus wrote:Crosi Wesdo wrote:Ares Desideratus wrote:I apologize for my unintelligible posts.
But yeah, that's basically what I was suggesting. Killboards shouldn't give players kills for things they did not kill. You realise that final blows are more about alpha and timing than skill or deserving? Ive seen more than a couple of archon kills with a t1 frigate or logistics as final blow. So you have yet to explain why this notion is more optimal, specially when there is literally no one that thinks ive solod 14,000 kills when they look at my killboard. Yeah. I don't think it really matters. I think the truth is more important. Whoever gets the kill in the game should get the "kill" on the killboard. But as Master Sergeant Macrobert pointed out, data on a killboard is down to killboard developer and not CCP, which I didn't really even consider before I started posting about this. It doesn't change my view. But it makes me realize the people who run the killboards simply don't care and it will most likely never change; they will continue to lie to support the blob. By the way, no one thinks you've soloed 14,000 kills when they look at your killboard. The problem is that is exactly what the killboard states, and it is a lie.
Not in the slightest.
The killboard states that ive been on 14000 kills. Thats the truth, and what everyone takes away from it.
There has to be some sort of deception for a lie to exist. Since there is not, you are once again using incorrect terminology. |
Ares Desideratus
RANDOM STARSHIP GUILD
267
|
Posted - 2015.06.27 01:07:54 -
[104] - Quote
Except it doesn't state that.
Let's have some examples.
Zkillboard states that you have destroyed 14,428 ships. Which is a lie.
Battleclinic states that you have 13,977 kills.
The only logical conclusion a person can come to when they read that you have 13,977 kills, is that you killed 13,977 ships.
Of course, we know better. We know the game is rigged. But that doesn't make it anything other than a lie. |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1463
|
Posted - 2015.06.27 01:39:17 -
[105] - Quote
Ares Desideratus wrote:Except it doesn't state that.
Let's have some examples.
Zkillboard states that you have destroyed 14,428 ships. Which is a lie.
Battleclinic states that you have 13,977 kills.
The only logical conclusion a person can come to when they read that you have 13,977 kills, is that you killed 13,977 ships.
Of course, we know better. We know the game is rigged. But that doesn't make it anything other than a lie.
This has to be the stupidest thing i have ever read on the eve forum.
You are so certain you are making a critical point. But im not sure anyone knows what it is. |
Ares Desideratus
RANDOM STARSHIP GUILD
267
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Posted - 2015.06.27 01:47:43 -
[106] - Quote
Well, how about go suck a bag of dicks then. |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1463
|
Posted - 2015.06.27 03:04:34 -
[107] - Quote
Ares Desideratus wrote:Well, how about go suck a bag of dicks then.
Thats what i thought, sorry that under these proposals your secret high sec links would be exposed. |
Ares Desideratus
RANDOM STARSHIP GUILD
267
|
Posted - 2015.06.27 04:43:59 -
[108] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:Ares Desideratus wrote:Well, how about go suck a bag of dicks then. Thats what i thought, sorry that under these proposals your secret high sec links would be exposed. I'm not even against the suspect / weapons timer you |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
1463
|
Posted - 2015.06.27 14:30:09 -
[109] - Quote
Ares Desideratus wrote:Crosi Wesdo wrote:Ares Desideratus wrote:Well, how about go suck a bag of dicks then. Thats what i thought, sorry that under these proposals your secret high sec links would be exposed. I'm not even against the suspect / weapons timer
No, you are just irrationally against support ships showing up on kills even though they can play a pivotal role. |
Mizhir
Matari Exodus The Camel Empire
74451
|
Posted - 2015.06.27 17:42:02 -
[110] - Quote
This thread is cancer.
One Man Crew - Collective Solo PVP - Video is out!
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ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
6012
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Posted - 2015.06.28 03:47:02 -
[111] - Quote
Removed a post, then looked at the rest of the thread.
Quote:Forum rules3. Ranting is prohibited.A rant is a post that is often filled with angry and counterproductive comments. A free exchange of ideas is essential to building a strong sense of community and is helpful in development of the game and community. Rants are disruptive, and incite flaming and trolling. Please post your thoughts in a concise and clear manner while avoiding going off on rambling tangents. 23. Post constructively.Negative feedback can be very useful to further improve EVE Online provided that it is presented in a civil and factual manner. All users are encouraged to honestly express their feelings regarding EVE Online and how it can be improved. Posts that are non-constructive, insulting or in breach of the rules will be deleted regardless of how valid the ideas behind them may be. Users are also reminded that posting with a lack of content also constitutes non-constructive posting.
Popped a booster, locked thread.
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
Vice Admiral
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
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