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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |
Steven Hackett
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
192
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Posted - 2015.07.06 18:00:33 -
[691] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote: This flexibility is part of what makes drones really interesting and while sentries have become a big part of what makes certain hulls so strong, we don't want to lock drone ships into drones that match their ship size. *Looks at Rise* *Looks at the Gila* *Looks at Rise*
CCP Rise wrote:Gila:- Medium drone powerhouse (remember the Medium Drone buff in the above linked Dev Blog)
*Keeps looking at Rise* |
Gingergirl Redhead
Hedion University Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2015.07.06 18:25:03 -
[692] - Quote
What kind of population increases can we expect as a result of the (obviously wise) decision to nerf all droneboats because one of them was overpowered? A thousand or eleventy thousand? |
T'l Deem
Zelotic Economics Karezza Rabbit Wholes
0
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Posted - 2015.07.06 18:45:04 -
[693] - Quote
Midori Tsu wrote:Bienator II wrote:have you considered splitting the dps bonus into dps+rof bonus like all other damage mods do? I guess thats also the reason why the DDAs have those non integer dps boost values.
one of the reasons why ships like the worm are so silly in frig fights is because of the insane alpha. On paper they would project worse than an algos, but IF worm drones hit the frig is half dead - no time to rep against that. due to ~legacy code~ you can't change the drone rof, only damage.
So EVE is like the power grid across north america? We know it works, just not exactly how it works? Did they fire the programmers that knew? Or did they leave for greener pastures?
Interesting indeed! |
Andreus Ixiris
Duty. Circle-Of-Two
5379
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Posted - 2015.07.06 18:48:02 -
[694] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Powercreep is bad.
People keep justifying this questionable change with "powercreep is bad," but at some point all choices need to remain viable. If they nerf drones too hard, drones become unviable.
Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.
Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.
Andreus Ixiris > ...
Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
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Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
1985
|
Posted - 2015.07.06 18:55:14 -
[695] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote:baltec1 wrote:Powercreep is bad. People keep justifying this questionable change with "powercreep is bad," but at some point all choices need to remain viable. If they nerf drones too hard, drones become unviable.
If they buff everything, it ONLY leed to powercreep. That is where the issue is. If you buff all Hacs to Ishtar elvel,t hen you ahve to take a look at eevry ship they were designed to counter and get countered by at the very minimum. THen you ahve to do apsses on all ship that also interact with the newly balanced slasses.
Or you nerf drones because they overperform on a few hull class anyway. Drones are not getting killed because of a 2% damage nerf on the damage mod. |
Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
1865
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Posted - 2015.07.06 20:55:58 -
[696] - Quote
Ishtar still very powerful, they match battleship weapon systems (dominix). IMHO drones should be nerfed as themselves, not by DDA. |
Tunox Teekaix
TT Express
0
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Posted - 2015.07.06 21:47:02 -
[697] - Quote
I can't see how nerfing drones in general is going to solve any issues. What seems obvious from an objective standpoint, is that the entire system of weapons calculation has become massively convoluted by years of adjustment, such that even CCP can no longer gauge the outcome until they've had time to stand back and see it for themselves. This clearly says the people who should have control don't have control, at least not to the extent they need to have. And then after making adjustments they're up against players who will find every which way they can to adapt to and circumvent those adjustments. It's a little bit like trying to sculpt custard. Nice idea, but the whole thing is eventually going to largely regain its original shape as before. You can also see how massively convoluted it is by reading the vast number of diverse points being made by players, all of which are either right, wrong or at some place between those two extremes, simply because the game accommodates that kind of infinite diversity. It just means that there really can't ever be a definitive solution to anything under the current system. So ultimately, you can only do one of two things : rethink the entire system from scratch, or just leave it alone. Fiddling with it may justify paying some clever people good salaries, but it only ever generates more work for itself that way and in the end, just leaves heck of a confusing mess. |
Rowells
ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans
2574
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Posted - 2015.07.06 22:01:34 -
[698] - Quote
Tunox Teekaix wrote:I can't see how nerfing drones in general is going to solve any issues. What seems obvious from an objective standpoint, is that the entire system of weapons calculation has become massively convoluted by years of adjustment, such that even CCP can no longer gauge the outcome until they've had time to stand back and see it for themselves. This clearly says the people who should have control don't have control, at least not to the extent they need to have. And then after making adjustments they're up against players who will find every which way they can to adapt to and circumvent those adjustments. It's a little bit like trying to sculpt custard. Nice idea, but the whole thing is eventually going to largely regain its original shape as before. You can also see how massively convoluted it is by reading the vast number of diverse points being made by players, all of which are either right, wrong or at some place between those two extremes, simply because the game accommodates that kind of infinite diversity. It just means that there really can't ever be a definitive solution to anything under the current system. So ultimately, you can only do one of two things : rethink the entire system from scratch, or just leave it alone. Fiddling with it may justify paying some clever people good salaries, but it only ever generates more work for itself that way and in the end, just leaves heck of a confusing mess. You are describing how most R&D departments work. Just look at how early space programs worked. There were dozens if not hundreds of failed launches and modules throughout the early stages. And even today there are still bugs and problems. You don't wait until you have a perfect solution. Nothing would ever get done.
And starting from scratch is essentially harder and more prone to failure than tweaking and adjusting. |
Danmal
Proioxis Assault Force Exodus.
20
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Posted - 2015.07.06 23:49:20 -
[699] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Alexander McKeon wrote:Rise, I believe at this point that you're deliberately missing the root cause of the problem: the Ishtar breaks the rule regarding size-appropriate weapons on hulls. Sentry drones are fundamentally a battleship-sized weapon system, and aren't game-breaking when used on such; perhaps in need of tuning like the DDA effectiveness reduction, but that's all. The combination of cruiser-class signature and speed, T2 resists (remember that no T2 battleships are viable for fleet combat) and the long-range projection of sentries are what push the Ishtar over the top in combat situations.
For whatever it might be worth, making the Ishtar into an improved version of the VNI, with fast enough drone travel times to be useful, seems a more practical situation, and allows for fleets deploying heavy smartbomb contingents to be an effective counter. This is suggested so often but it just isn't the case. Drones not being locked to the size of their owner ship is one of the most consistent and distinct things about them. Vexors, VNIs, Myrmidons, Eos's, and Ishtars (at least) all use 'battleship sized' drones, and everything bigger than a destroyer can use 'frigate sized' drones. This flexibility is part of what makes drones really interesting and while sentries have become a big part of what makes certain hulls so strong, we don't want to lock drone ships into drones that match their ship size.
CCP Rise, this statement is, unconditionally, false. Correct is that drones are not locked to the size of the ship conditional on the drone bandwidth of the ship. Hence, no, I cannot fit an Ogre II, a Sentry, or a Gecko in my Maulus. In fact the best counter example to this argument is the Guristas line of Worm, Gila, Rattlesnake. No, I cannot fit a Gecko in my Gila. Nor would a person of sane mind fit anything but small drones in a Worm or medium drones in a Gila.
The implication for Drone rebalancing would be straightforward. It would be perfectly possible to restrict sentries to any ship class by adjusting the drone bandwidth sentries require (and by adjusting the drone bandwidth and drone bays of intended ships accordingly). That you do not want to is a different story and perhaps the right thing. But water hold, your argument does not (I think Master Yoda said that). |
Natalia Abre-Kai
19
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Posted - 2015.07.07 00:54:27 -
[700] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Natalia Abre-Kai wrote:Funny how there is no one that is saying the Myrm, Eos, or the Prophecy are "OP" yet still get hammered with the DDA nerf. Also how about those drone related implants that seem to not exist. Ya, some "balance". Edit: Lets not even mention that drones are destructible or that they have to travel to target (aside from sentries). 2% per mod on a damage mod is hammered now? What was it called when HML got nerfed then? So you are saying the nerf is not going to effect said ships? Okay. |
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Sargon Matrix
Perkone Caldari State
2
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Posted - 2015.07.07 01:23:49 -
[701] - Quote
Why does CCP's concept of re-balancing consist of nerfing everything? |
Rowells
ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans
2574
|
Posted - 2015.07.07 01:26:26 -
[702] - Quote
Natalia Abre-Kai wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Natalia Abre-Kai wrote:Funny how there is no one that is saying the Myrm, Eos, or the Prophecy are "OP" yet still get hammered with the DDA nerf. Also how about those drone related implants that seem to not exist. Ya, some "balance". Edit: Lets not even mention that drones are destructible or that they have to travel to target (aside from sentries). 2% per mod on a damage mod is hammered now? What was it called when HML got nerfed then? So you are saying the nerf is not going to effect said ships? Okay. Nope. He questioned your use of 'hammered'. |
Rowells
ANZAC ALLIANCE Fidelas Constans
2574
|
Posted - 2015.07.07 01:27:11 -
[703] - Quote
Sargon Matrix wrote:Why does CCP's concept of re-balancing consist of nerfing everything? It's easier to hammer a nail or two down, than to try and pull the rest up. |
Mazzara
Gale Force Contractors
26
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Posted - 2015.07.07 01:33:43 -
[704] - Quote
I normally keep an open mind with ccp's changes but I have to disagree on the drone nerf.
No matter how much you scrub, how hot of water you use,-áyou can't wash shame!
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bassy nook
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2015.07.07 02:59:51 -
[705] - Quote
Bunka en Daire wrote:Why u just dont delete drone boats from game??? Even better u can mix up vexor and ishtar in one ship, so no more efforts for nerfing.
Or better why u just do not BUFF other ships, so u must nerf all drone boats, because of tiiiiit BLOBERS?
So when some1 invest year in training drones, u just nerf them and u make that one year of training pointless...
Bad thing with all this nerfing is beacuse u base all that on +200 mans fleet...so....do u think all eve players are part of CFC, PL, and other so called alliances who enjoy to blob 200 ishtars on one Maelstrom???
Exactly#!! So much training time wasted. I felt the same way when they changed the blueprint system. I spent years researching ME and PE to just in one day losing almost all of it. |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
1985
|
Posted - 2015.07.07 03:25:29 -
[706] - Quote
Natalia Abre-Kai wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Natalia Abre-Kai wrote:Funny how there is no one that is saying the Myrm, Eos, or the Prophecy are "OP" yet still get hammered with the DDA nerf. Also how about those drone related implants that seem to not exist. Ya, some "balance". Edit: Lets not even mention that drones are destructible or that they have to travel to target (aside from sentries). 2% per mod on a damage mod is hammered now? What was it called when HML got nerfed then? So you are saying the nerf is not going to effect said ships? Okay.
No I'm not but I guess what you just said you can't read. I had doubt about it since you could not make a realistic evaluation of the nerf presented by CCP Rise but I guess it's worse than I though... |
Stragak
19
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Posted - 2015.07.07 03:37:16 -
[707] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Dez Affinity wrote:You guys don't have a clue what you're doing. You're just playing whack a mole until you get the desired results. Whack an Ishtar.
Yes but some of us still remember the drake before the glory days, during the glory days, and after the glory days...
"Oh look, the cat is sitting in the litter box and pooping over the side again" every time we go through these "rough patches".
In good humor, and slight annoyance,
Boiglio -á-áhttps://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=238130&p=82
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The Mach
STEEL CITY. Illuminati Confirmed.
5
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Posted - 2015.07.07 03:42:00 -
[708] - Quote
Nerfing carriers and supercarriers again? So much for making isk via carrier... may as well move to highsec and run incursions, MUCH less risk and WAY better reward.
-1. (try again) |
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
686
|
Posted - 2015.07.07 03:50:50 -
[709] - Quote
Rowells wrote:Sargon Matrix wrote:Why does CCP's concept of re-balancing consist of nerfing everything? It's easier to hammer a nail or two down, than to try and pull the rest up.
If only they could hammer down the right nails....seems like they are just hammering the nails they don't want to pull even more with the DDA changes and just tapping the bad nails sticking out.
I see the hull changes and maybe its me with some time in sniper cerbs....2 slot glass cannon tanks (what I ran sometimes) look bad on paper but you have to remember the range you can pull (sentry gets some reach as well, sometimes apples and oranges can live together lol).....is also part of your tank. try to be deep falloff or just out of range and tank not even hit hard much if done right and you get some lucky breaks. Ishtar doctrine I would not be surprised will ride on that more.
But time will tell about that I reckon. |
Bert96 Bertopolis
Spatial Distortions
0
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Posted - 2015.07.07 05:27:16 -
[710] - Quote
Tempest buff: +1
Regarding the Ishtar, why not just remove the sentry gun bonuses? It's the only cruiser that gets to use battleship size weapons (and gets bonuses for them). Instead of playing whack-a-mole, just take off the sentry bonuses and be done with it.
If you guys really want to balance the Gallente with their sentry drones, just put them on a BC with the same bonuses but they've got no business being on a cruiser. |
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Zenmaster Aihaken
Lost Valkyries
5
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Posted - 2015.07.07 05:36:31 -
[711] - Quote
I've been skilling drones for, I dunno, over half a year. I want my money back. |
Singe Walker
Domi Nostrae Darwinism.
0
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Posted - 2015.07.07 05:45:19 -
[712] - Quote
Just so I have this straight:
1. We identified that the Ishtar is powerful. 2. We need to fix that, so we are going to change some of the ships attributes (kudos, this makes sense) 3. Hmmm also lets nerf ALL the drones in game, that should fix the Ishtar!
Problem is not with drone damage, the problem is with the Ishtar's sentry drone bonus. you lowered all drone damage, so effectively the Ishtar is STILL the best drone boat, all that was accomplished was nerfing everything else. Now that is definitely one of the most ineffective changes I have seen.
other than that, the rest sounds interesting! |
Kibitt Kallinikov
Catastrophic Operations Get Off My Lawn
4
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Posted - 2015.07.07 06:01:37 -
[713] - Quote
Singe Walker wrote:Just so I have this straight:
1. We identified that the Ishtar is powerful. 2. We need to fix that, so we are going to change some of the ships attributes (kudos, this makes sense) 3. Hmmm also lets nerf ALL the drones in game, that should fix the Ishtar!
Problem is not with drone damage, the problem is with the Ishtar's sentry drone bonus. you lowered all drone damage, so effectively the Ishtar is STILL the best drone boat, all that was accomplished was nerfing everything else. Now that is definitely one of the most ineffective changes I have seen.
other than that, the rest sounds interesting!
CCP has identified that drone boats in general are seeing more use than any other boat, regardless of whether it is an Ishtar or not. That is why they are nerfing all drone boats. They're gambling that the proposed changes will make the Ishtar into less of a shield sentry sniper for PvP and thus open up competition on that front. We'll see how things change very soon. |
Ghokhu
The Scope Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2015.07.07 09:31:26 -
[714] - Quote
Oh Lord im so happy that World of Warships is now open Beta, cause honestly? Besides of Incursions /if you have the luck to get in fleets that is/ nothing is really worth it for making isk.
That said, CCP is going the way to make us pay for monthly fee + buying PLEX to get isk for ships, which you cannot use or lose cause NO ONE wants to fight.
Tired of sitting in station or at titan to wait and drop some poor sucker who is ratting. Tired of gatecamping in lowsec so we can kill someone who hits autopilot or is too new to really know the ways around EVE. EVE was fun, now its more work then fun.
So CCP please nerf it all so we can start over with EVE 2.0 Have fun, im out to sink some warships...muhahaha
P.S.: BTW when do you actualy plan to release Valkyrie ? 2017? 2025 ? Never?
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Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hedion University Amarr Empire
763
|
Posted - 2015.07.07 10:09:48 -
[715] - Quote
Bronson Hughes wrote:Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:http://i.imgur.com/afJycoE.png?1 Some people are just oblivious. What's telling is that whoever made that chart didn't eve bother with missiles....
Possibly because CCP forgot to include them? The original can be found http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/balance-changes-coming-in-scylla/
http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/66946/1/STEVE_7.png
Adjusted truGäó version: http://i.imgur.com/z4ynWV9.png
// [PvP Damage Done by Class (Scylla)]
//
[Cruisers Online]
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dor amwar
Interstellar Renegades Advent of Fate
3
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Posted - 2015.07.07 10:11:01 -
[716] - Quote
nino (nerf in name only) |
Crippen
I N E X T R E M I S Circle-Of-Two
0
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Posted - 2015.07.07 10:28:07 -
[717] - Quote
remove sentry bonus to tracking. lower drone BW to 100. introduce medium sentries. |
AngelFood
25
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Posted - 2015.07.07 10:41:08 -
[718] - Quote
Where you get your statistics from is beyond me .. ishtar still twice dps? insane now ruined .. did you forget it only has 2 rig slots
ccp need to get a new statistics analyst .. or just get one instead of using popularity freaks that you hired as devs. |
Drake Naari
Draconian Proficio Infinitum
0
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Posted - 2015.07.07 11:05:46 -
[719] - Quote
Okay, first of all I just want to say that at least they are trying to rebalance the game, and the Dev Post said that the drone changes was due to the fact of the overwhelming use of drone boats. They want others to fly ships other than the ones that were posted along with the changes. Before throwing a fit, please reread the post and don't just look at numbers. |
Chatelaine Superior
Angels Dust
2
|
Posted - 2015.07.07 12:02:34 -
[720] - Quote
THAT ishtar balance nothing changes, - gonna continue fleet fights of ishtars with bouncers.
All needed to do just - ISHTARS CAN'T USE SENTRY DRONES.
eh. |
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