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Angelica Dreamstar
Miner's House of ill repute
994
|
Posted - 2015.07.17 00:32:48 -
[151] - Quote
Eleygen I'cey wrote:Unfortunately you are wrong. Time in this game is the only barrier TIME CAN NOT EVER BE A BARRIER!
TIME! CAN NOT! EVER! BE A BARRIER!
THE BARRIER IS YOUR OWN PATIENCE!
HOLY MOTHER OF GOD, YOU CAN NOT ARGUE ABOUT THIS!!
Time ALWAYS flows! The ONLY and ABSOLUTELY ONLY point in time when time itself becomes a barrier is when YOU know WHEN you are going to die! Okay? OKAY? TIME FLOWS! THERE IS NO BARRIER! THE END OF THE UNIVERSE IS A BARRIER! Do you get THAT??
Do I have to make it explicitly clear for you???
- TIME CAN NOT BE A BARRIER!
- YOU MAKE NO SENSE!
- IT'S DUMB TO SAY THAT!
- UNEDUCATED!
This isn't about semantics!
TIME CAN NOT EVER BE A BARRIER!
GET IT INTO YOUR HEAD!
THE ONLY BARRIER HERE IS YOUR OWN PATIENCE!
If people stopped giving dumb people a stage to thrive on, then dumb people would either smarten up or vanish out of existence. At that point, the smart dumbs seperate themselves from the dumb dumbs and they might have a chance of improving.
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Eleygen I'cey
Fredegar Hohenstaufen Corporation
0
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Posted - 2015.07.17 01:37:48 -
[152] - Quote
Angelica Dreamstar wrote:Eleygen I'cey wrote:Unfortunately you are wrong. Time in this game is the only barrier TIME CAN NOT EVER BE A BARRIER! TIME! CAN NOT! EVER! BE A BARRIER! THE BARRIER IS YOUR OWN PATIENCE! HOLY MOTHER OF GOD, YOU CAN NOT ARGUE ABOUT THIS!! Time ALWAYS flows! The ONLY and ABSOLUTELY ONLY point in time when time itself becomes a barrier is when YOU know WHEN you are going to die! Okay? OKAY? TIME FLOWS! THERE IS NO BARRIER! THE END OF THE UNIVERSE IS A BARRIER! Do you get THAT?? Do I have to make it explicitly clear for you???
- TIME CAN NOT BE A BARRIER!
- YOU MAKE NO SENSE!
- IT'S DUMB TO SAY THAT!
- UNEDUCATED!
This isn't about semantics! TIME CAN NOT EVER BE A BARRIER! GET IT INTO YOUR HEAD! THE ONLY BARRIER HERE IS YOUR OWN PATIENCE! "Barrier: a fence or other obstacle that prevents movement or access." SP is only gained by time SP restricts access to ship types, damage bonus, number of drones and more. Therefore time is a barrier by definition.
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Angelica Dreamstar
Miner's House of ill repute
996
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Posted - 2015.07.17 01:47:40 -
[153] - Quote
No, because the time goes by and you ALWAYS will reach the point you skill towards to. Unless you die before that.
Time can not ever be a barrier. I guess I need to point out that Time is not physical, btw, and as it keeps passing on more and more things happen, including your skills to finish. They always do. Always. No barrier.
You blame Time for your lack of patience and understanding that alp you want is a quick fix of the game. You don't even understand wtf you are talking about, as my signature prominently puts up for display! You can't be the worlds best battleship pilot when you can't fly one. You will find out if you are one, once you learn to use it. You want a shortcut you can not have, but you don't understand your error, because you don't know that you don't understand this game. At all!
You're beaten. And I've achieved nothing, because you're nothing more than a stubborn child unwilling to accept he's not good enough to do what tens of thousands of people succesfully did before him. No, the child prefers to whine!
You should go to bed. It's late.
"Even if I am the best battleship pilot ever to have played eve and funded by the richest alliance how long will it take before I can fly one from 0sp? Months? Years?" - Eleygen I'cey, instant gratification addict and proud of not making any sense.
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Aerasia
Republic University Minmatar Republic
43
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Posted - 2015.07.17 01:55:21 -
[154] - Quote
Webvan wrote:You are talking more about just general min/max stuff though, which still is not really an issue in EVE unless you punish yourself with 1v1 pvp. I'd say it's more than just the 1v1 though. Even group PvP it's more "you can be in the same fleet as people who are fighting" than "actually participating yourself". Not as bad as trying to find fights in a two week old Rifter, but if you don't have a solid corp you're going to get tired of the E-War frig you don't even want to fly getting alpha'd first real quick. |
Angelica Dreamstar
Miner's House of ill repute
996
|
Posted - 2015.07.17 01:56:16 -
[155] - Quote
ADDITIONALLY will lowering any skilltimes in favour for your skill-less kind of people result in even more of your kind of people whining for even shorter times, because everything that isn't INSTANT will NEVER be good enough for you spoiled little brats who have no idea how much they actually suck at games, especially this one!
It is known that this WILL happen!
I'll buy you some candy instead. *pats head*
"Even if I am the best battleship pilot ever to have played eve and funded by the richest alliance how long will it take before I can fly one from 0sp? Months? Years?" - Eleygen I'cey, instant gratification addict and proud of not making any sense.
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Bubba Ovaert
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2015.07.17 02:18:30 -
[156] - Quote
Aerasia wrote:you're going to get tired of the E-War frig
Sorry to spoil the experience, but you're going to get tired of flying literally everything at some point. The wisdom of high sp is realizing that being a new player in a malus is about as interesting a role as being a decade old player in a T3 cruiser and both of those things are vastly more interesting than piloting capital ships, even if they have marginal utility by comparison.
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Aerasia
Republic University Minmatar Republic
43
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Posted - 2015.07.17 02:36:08 -
[157] - Quote
Sounds like the 'wisdom of high sp' is "get out while you can".
Having seen how a lot of EvE operates I have no doubt most roles become boring, especially if you don't have the freedom to swtich. I know the games I stick with let me change things up when something starts to go stale:
Don't feel like playing class X? Go play class Y. Don't feel like grinding? Go PvP. Don't feel like doing the story mission? Pick a direction and go do whatever's over there for a while.
Maybe that's the secret to EvE? Enjoy living with less - just puttering around highsec with your half skilled frigate, seeing where the day takes you. |
Webvan
All Kill No Skill
11166
|
Posted - 2015.07.17 02:50:47 -
[158] - Quote
Bubba Ovaert wrote:Aerasia wrote:you're going to get tired of the E-War frig Sorry to spoil the experience, but you're going to get tired of flying literally everything at some point. The wisdom of high sp is realizing that being a new player in a malus is about as interesting a role as being a decade old player in a T3 cruiser and both of those things are vastly more interesting than piloting capital ships, even if they have marginal utility by comparison. Yep well said. Hence why I have three subcap combat pilots and nothing else, nor ever will. EVE is boring, but it's the best boring game on the market that everyone should play imo. Instant gratification is over rated and far more boring.
Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12
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Hiply Rustic
Aliastra Gallente Federation
300
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Posted - 2015.07.17 03:04:36 -
[159] - Quote
Eleygen I'cey wrote:Angelica Dreamstar wrote:Eleygen I'cey wrote:Unfortunately you are wrong. Time in this game is the only barrier TIME CAN NOT EVER BE A BARRIER! TIME! CAN NOT! EVER! BE A BARRIER! THE BARRIER IS YOUR OWN PATIENCE! HOLY MOTHER OF GOD, YOU CAN NOT ARGUE ABOUT THIS!! Time ALWAYS flows! The ONLY and ABSOLUTELY ONLY point in time when time itself becomes a barrier is when YOU know WHEN you are going to die! Okay? OKAY? TIME FLOWS! THERE IS NO BARRIER! THE END OF THE UNIVERSE IS A BARRIER! Do you get THAT?? Do I have to make it explicitly clear for you???
- TIME CAN NOT BE A BARRIER!
- YOU MAKE NO SENSE!
- IT'S DUMB TO SAY THAT!
- UNEDUCATED!
This isn't about semantics! TIME CAN NOT EVER BE A BARRIER! GET IT INTO YOUR HEAD! THE ONLY BARRIER HERE IS YOUR OWN PATIENCE! "Barrier: a fence or other obstacle that prevents movement or access." SP is only gained by time SP restricts access to ship types, damage bonus, number of drones and more. Therefore time is a barrier by definition.
It is indeed a barrier, in the same way a gate is a barrier. Once you open that gate the barrier no longer exists
Not all barriers are bad.
This is an example of a barrier that is not bad.
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
"Eve deliberately excludes the stupid and the weak willied."
EvE: Only the strong-willied need apply.
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Eleygen I'cey
Fredegar Hohenstaufen Corporation
0
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Posted - 2015.07.17 03:19:24 -
[160] - Quote
Bubba Ovaert wrote:Aerasia wrote:you're going to get tired of the E-War frig Sorry to spoil the experience, but you're going to get tired of flying literally everything at some point. The wisdom of high sp is realizing that being a new player in a malus is about as interesting a role as being a decade old player in a T3 cruiser and both of those things are vastly more interesting than piloting capital ships, even if they have marginal utility by comparison. Yes, but if that "some point" is in a decade I would hardly give that as a reason to limit ship selection for new players. Using me as an example it takes well over 60+ days before I can even see if flying a battleship is something I'd enjoy. If its not then I just wasted months of training for nothing. Maybe a compromise would be having a re-playable career mission give you a test mission for each ship class. I wouldn't mind a 60+ day wait if i knew for sure I would enjoy the result, that's just more time to accumulate isk and general experience. |
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Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
24298
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Posted - 2015.07.17 03:58:23 -
[161] - Quote
Eleygen I'cey wrote:Bubba Ovaert wrote:Aerasia wrote:you're going to get tired of the E-War frig Sorry to spoil the experience, but you're going to get tired of flying literally everything at some point. The wisdom of high sp is realizing that being a new player in a malus is about as interesting a role as being a decade old player in a T3 cruiser and both of those things are vastly more interesting than piloting capital ships, even if they have marginal utility by comparison. Yes, but if that "some point" is in a decade I would hardly give that as a reason to limit ship selection for new players. Using me as an example it takes well over 60+ days before I can even see if flying a battleship is something I'd enjoy. If its not then I just wasted months of training for nothing. Maybe a compromise would be having a re-playable career mission give you a test mission for each ship class. I wouldn't mind a 60+ day wait if i knew for sure I would enjoy the result, that's just more time to accumulate isk and general experience. And this is why you probably won't be here in six months, and nothing of any worth will have been lost.
I'm calling preemptive dibs on your stuff.
Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
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Webvan
All Kill No Skill
11166
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Posted - 2015.07.17 04:09:18 -
[162] - Quote
Eleygen I'cey wrote:Bubba Ovaert wrote:Aerasia wrote:you're going to get tired of the E-War frig Sorry to spoil the experience, but you're going to get tired of flying literally everything at some point. The wisdom of high sp is realizing that being a new player in a malus is about as interesting a role as being a decade old player in a T3 cruiser and both of those things are vastly more interesting than piloting capital ships, even if they have marginal utility by comparison. Yes, but if that "some point" is in a decade I would hardly give that as a reason to limit ship selection for new players. Using me as an example it takes well over 60+ days before I can even see if flying a battleship is something I'd enjoy. If its not then I just wasted months of training for nothing. Maybe a compromise would be having a re-playable career mission give you a test mission for each ship class. I wouldn't mind a 60+ day wait if i knew for sure I would enjoy the result, that's just more time to accumulate isk and general experience. You know the cool part about EVE? It's not the only space game ever made. Even in X3, capitals (which take a lot of time to get) are boring and most anything heavy and slow is boring. Lots of other games are the same way. I do like battleships here, but it's far from they being exciting that I like about them, and really I could live w/o them.
The only real true edge of your seat fun in this game are AF's (to me anyway), though recently decimated by boring T3D's in the new OP intro phase of them. So, using your example and applying what I already know, Caps are very boring to me, so much so I don't need to train them to know I'm just not interested. However, if you are new to space sim games in general (maybe coming from night elf hunter type games?), you can always train BS on sisi if you have no clue yet. Newbies shouldn't be flying Dreadnoughts! What do you think this is, a Nintendo game?
Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12
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Davis TetrisKing
The Vendunari End of Life
97
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Posted - 2015.07.17 04:32:40 -
[163] - Quote
Count of MonteCylon wrote:I posted this in another thread but figure it's worth making my own just to see if anyone agrees with me. I have a feeling that this will make more established players cringe but I do believe it's true:
The challenge in making Eve accessible from a PvP standpoint isn't in the number of skill points that people start in, it's related to the expense as well as to the time required before you can "afford to lose" the T2 and higher items. Giving me more skill points to begin with won't meaningfully shrink the gap because it'll still be months at least before it's economically worth it for me to fly the things that dominate the PvP game. If I play casually (which I do) it's never worth it and between that and the long waits inherent to Eve PvP it's fundamentally not worth it for me to treat this as a PvP game.
Tl;dr -- giving me more SP won't make it cost effective for me to fly the good stuff against older players or players who have way more time to spend on the game than I do.
You're missing the big picture. Eve is a big picture game. Eve is not a moba or action-RPG or dogfighting-sim. PvP in eve is as much about the long game as it is about those few seconds when you've both webbed and scrammed each other till someone dies.
Setting up your character - big picture. Making isk to buy ships - medium picture. Fitting a specific ship for a single pvp session - medium picture. Hunting for targets - small picture. Actually shooting people - very very small picture.
And the above is just for a solo pvp player. You also have small gang players, null sov players, industrial players, explorers, WH, logistics. There is so much more to Eve than solo pvp. If all you want is 'fair' 1v1 fights then you cut out a HUGE part of eve. For most other areas of the game the big picture gets even bigger.
The big picture in eve means you don't just get to play with the big boys on an even footing from the start.
Eve is also what you make it though. If you want fairly new player friendly pvp I would recommend looking for groups that cater to that. Look up RvB. Join E-Uni and 1v1 other members in pre-set fights. You might not get to fight anyone you want where ever you want, but you have the power in Eve to pick your fights. Look for places that will cater to your play style and time commitments, they ARE out there. |
Avaelica Kuershin
Paper Cats
201
|
Posted - 2015.07.17 04:33:19 -
[164] - Quote
Eleygen I'cey wrote:Bubba Ovaert wrote:Aerasia wrote:you're going to get tired of the E-War frig Sorry to spoil the experience, but you're going to get tired of flying literally everything at some point. The wisdom of high sp is realizing that being a new player in a malus is about as interesting a role as being a decade old player in a T3 cruiser and both of those things are vastly more interesting than piloting capital ships, even if they have marginal utility by comparison. Yes, but if that "some point" is in a decade I would hardly give that as a reason to limit ship selection for new players. Using me as an example it takes well over 60+ days before I can even see if flying a battleship is something I'd enjoy. If its not then I just wasted months of training for nothing. Maybe a compromise would be having a re-playable career mission give you a test mission for each ship class. I wouldn't mind a 60+ day wait if i knew for sure I would enjoy the result, that's just more time to accumulate isk and general experience.
1) You should get an idea if a battleship will be right by flying a battlecruiser... if you don't much like the battlecruiser compared to a cruiser, then maybe the battleship might not be so great. 2) Apart from perhaps the racial battleship training and large weapon to 3 or 4 (a few days ), the remainder of the training is in core skills which be useful for other ships.
I know I turned my back on battleships for a while but the training wasn't wasted because the core skills still come in useful for assault frigates, inteceptors, cov-ops as well as T2 cruisers (eventually). I like my Ishkur and VNI.
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Eleygen I'cey
Fredegar Hohenstaufen Corporation
0
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Posted - 2015.07.17 05:12:36 -
[165] - Quote
Avaelica Kuershin wrote:
1) You should get an idea if a battleship will be right by flying a battlecruiser... if you don't much like the battlecruiser compared to a cruiser, then maybe the battleship might not be so great. 2) Apart from perhaps the racial battleship training and large weapon to 3 or 4 (a few days ), the remainder of the training is in core skills which be useful for other ships.
I know I turned my back on battleships for a while but the training wasn't wasted because the core skills still come in useful for assault frigates, inteceptors, cov-ops as well as T2 cruisers (eventually). I like my Ishkur and VNI.
That's a good way to think of it, and this does mean that there is a meaningful decision about advancing a tier or going to a new class of ship. This is my first time playing a game with purely passive skill gain, so the inability to directly affect progression will take some time to adjust to. |
Aerasia
Republic University Minmatar Republic
43
|
Posted - 2015.07.17 06:06:09 -
[166] - Quote
Avaelica Kuershin wrote:I know I turned my back on battleships for a while but the training wasn't wasted because the core skills still come in useful for assault frigates, inteceptors, cov-ops as well as T2 cruisers (eventually). I like my Ishkur and VNI.
Ironically, it's those core skills that really get you.
I did my own rush to Battleship way back in the day. At the time, they were the weapon of choice for L4s, which were pretty high on the list of 'how to make ISK'. Little did I know at the time that 1) not having your core skills up makes sitting in a Battleship a very large, very expensive coffin, and 2) while the ISK is better - EVE's PVE content shows you everything it's got during the career missions. If you don't like running L1s, you aren't going to like L4s any better. So I got into my Battleship, only to find out that I didn't enjoy the gameplay once I got there and I couldn't do the content anyway because I didn't have the skills to fit my ship properly.
Those core skills come to get you no matter what you do. Want to explore? Core skills. Mission runner? Core skills. PvP god? Core skill ++ungood. Even hauling needs it's share of the core Nav skills. And they aren't fast. When people talk about how EvE gets good after 10M SP, they're probably talking about the point your core skills are done and you're within a week or two of unlocking most ships.
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Bubba Ovaert
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2015.07.17 10:57:10 -
[167] - Quote
Aerasia wrote:Sounds like the 'wisdom of high sp' is "get out while you can". Having seen how a lot of EvE operates I have no doubt most roles become boring, especially if you don't have the freedom to swtich. I know the games I stick with let me change things up when something starts to go stale: Don't feel like playing class X? Go play class Y. Don't feel like grinding? Go PvP. Don't feel like doing the story mission? Pick a direction and go do whatever's over there for a while. Maybe that's the secret to EvE? Enjoy living with less - just puttering around highsec with your half skilled frigate, seeing where the day takes you.
Yeah, if you think the game isn't fun in general, do get out before you earn more sp because that won't help you. On the other hand, I do think it's fun so maybe just leave highsec and see where the content is. You might like it. |
Aerasia
Republic University Minmatar Republic
43
|
Posted - 2015.07.17 14:47:44 -
[168] - Quote
I'm probably out in a month(ish?), don't worry. I end up buying a few months sub every 5 years because I forget what made me quit last time.
I love the contradiction of the SP system though:
- New players insist if they had more SP they'd be having more fun.
- Bittervets insist SP doesn't bring fun.
- Forum regulars insist that you can do anything you want from "Day 1", no SP required.
- Ingame Corp ads insist SP is required for entry.
- Blog posts insist having a 10M+ SP alt is the best way to introduce people to the game.
- The most vitriolic defences of the SP system insist that providing any SP is dumbing down the game to the point it will die.
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Cellini Benvenuto
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
34
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Posted - 2015.07.17 16:47:56 -
[169] - Quote
Quote:New players insist if they had more SP they'd be having more fun.
Some new players do. Not all. Personally, I don't see myself having more fun now that I have 7M. I've been having the same amount of fun as I did when I had 1M. If anything, bigger ships are a tad irritating to fly. I've given cruisers a try three times now, and then shelved them. They are just so boring and bulky when you are coming from frigates (I dare not even imagine what it would be like to fly BCs and BSs!!)
Also the quick, rapid train where you see 5-6 skills getting trained every day and your ship's peformance improving on a daily basis is way more fun than waiting days for a single skill to train up! |
Aerasia
Republic University Minmatar Republic
46
|
Posted - 2015.07.17 17:45:02 -
[170] - Quote
It's true, everybody's a bit different. I value the ability to change, so SP is restrictive because every time I think of something new I want to do, I get stopped by a "Do you have Whosimawhatsit V trained?". If you look at SP gain as purely a barrier to your goal, whether you're right about how enjoyable reaching the goal will be or not, knowing there's nothing you can do but wait is frustrating.
Generally it's only those people who can live with the SP system that stick with EvE to become the bitter veterans telling people SP doesn't matter.
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Jenshae Chiroptera
1988
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Posted - 2015.07.17 18:42:04 -
[171] - Quote
The skill with skills is knowing how to priorities effectively.
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids
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High Sec needs a stepping stone to other spaces, where they can grow
Fozzie SOV is treating a symptom.
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Keno Skir
751
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Posted - 2015.07.17 21:04:21 -
[172] - Quote
Count of MonteCylon wrote:Angelica Dreamstar wrote:Why are you incapable of dealing with something tens of thousands did before you? Why do you need it easier than all of those who were successful before you? You are rambling, I am only commenting on a problem that has existed for awhile and that is beginning to be acknowledged. T2 et al should be different, not better, if what Eve wants is immediate access and enjoyment in the PvP game for new players. If what people want is to lord it over their juniors then Eve will decline and there are some indications that this is already happening, otherwise no one would be acknowledging the problem.
That's not rambling, it's a short and concise point that is directly relevant to your discussion. You avoided it with rambling.
Gùï> 30 Day Buddy Trial + ISK Bonus & Starting Assistance <Gùï
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Webvan
All Kill No Skill
11181
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Posted - 2015.07.17 22:55:54 -
[173] - Quote
Aerasia wrote:New players insist if they had more SP they'd be having more fun farming for PLEX so they never need pay a dime into an EVE subscription.
ftfy
Result: 400k+ new subs, for a little while anyway while PLEX prices go up to 10B and the game economy is driven into hyperinflation.
Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12
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Bubba Ovaert
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
4
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Posted - 2015.07.17 23:21:37 -
[174] - Quote
Aerasia wrote:
Bittervets insist SP doesn't bring fun. It doesn't. The most bitter posters on these forums have close to 300mil sp. Check out digitalwanderer over in the skills forum. The guy has just shiptoasted about his sp for years, that's literally all he does. I seriously doubt that's fun.
Aerasia wrote:
Forum regulars insist that you can do anything you want from "Day 1", no SP required. Incorrect. I said you could fulfill an active and useful role in a fleet or gang. My position is that these entry level roles are every bit as engaging and fun as the other fleet roles which are the same thing with different icons.
Aerasia wrote:
Ingame Corp ads insist SP is required for entry. Not only do the largest new player corps not require a set amount of sp, half of them won't even ask for any kind of API check. Corps with an sp benchmark aren't worth joining as a newbie when the newbie friendly ones literally hand you skillbooks, ships, and content on a silver platter.
Aerasia wrote:
Blog posts insist having a 10M+ SP alt is the best way to introduce people to the game. The most vitriolic defences of the SP system insist that providing any SP is dumbing down the game to the point it will die. CCP suggested they're going ahead with increasing the minimum sp level already, so that battle is over. If you think the bittervets are winning the culture war, you're clearly not paying attention. I don't agree with most of them either, but most of your post is just as hyperbolic. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
24325
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Posted - 2015.07.18 01:09:49 -
[175] - Quote
Bubba Ovaert wrote:Not only do the largest new player corps not require a set amount of sp, half of them won't even ask for any kind of API check. Corps with an sp benchmark aren't worth joining as a newbie when the newbie friendly ones literally hand you skillbooks, ships, and content on a silver platter. Totally agreed, although some corps use the SP requirement as a filter and are often willing to drop it for people they think will be a good fit regardless of whether or not they're newbies. It's always worth having a chat with a recruiter before applying.
Quote:CCP suggested they're going ahead with increasing the minimum sp level already, so that battle is over. If you think the bittervets are winning the culture war, you're clearly not paying attention. I don't agree with most of them either, but most of your post is just as hyperbolic. I think what many fear is that CCP won't balance it against something else such as when they changed the starting attributes of new characters while removing learning skills and the initial 2x speed boost up to 1.5M SP. That change was welcomed by many a bittervet and newbie alike.
I think that they also fear, and it relates to the point that Aerasia made about "dumbing down the game", if it isn't balanced it sets a precedent that may mean more of the same when the same topic comes up a few years down the line. Some people are always going to want easier access to what they see as endgame content, "elite gear" and the like.
I can't speak for others, but in my opinion that's what other MMOs are for, Eve is not that kind of game
Personally I have no problem with giving newbies a little more SP in the form of focussed basic skills such as those handed out in the old tutorials, or listed as essentials by some of the better skill plans that are available in order to give them a couple of weeks head start, any more than that would require balancing against something else.
CCP need to improve the NPE at the same time, looking at NCQA the new opportunities system is vague as hell. The usual advice to newbies is to do the old tutorials and then retry opportunities with a little knowledge behind them. I haven't tried opportunities so I'm going to ignore it for the purposes of the rest of the post.
The old NPE pushes people to PvE with the exception of mentioning FW in passing, it doesn't let newbies know that they are going to be futzed with and that many activities considered to be greifing elsewhere are allowed.
An NPE that better prepares newbies, with knowledge, for the virtual shark infested waters outside of the starter systems benefits everybody.
Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
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Primary This Rifter
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
871
|
Posted - 2015.07.18 01:19:12 -
[176] - Quote
Ivant Sumboodi wrote:Guys like this make me worry, consider this-
they got rid of Learning Skills in 2008, they got rid of clones/upgrades/sp loss in 2013(2014? cant remember), so what'll happen 4 years from now? Getting rid of SP as we know it? Getting rid of learning skills and clone upgrades made sense. This doesn't. |
Primary This Rifter
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
871
|
Posted - 2015.07.18 01:22:05 -
[177] - Quote
Bubba Ovaert wrote:CCP suggested they're going ahead with increasing the minimum sp level already, so that battle is over. If you think the bittervets are winning the culture war, you're clearly not paying attention. I don't agree with most of them either, but most of your post is just as hyperbolic. Where did CCP say they were going to do this? I know this character is in Doomheim, but anyone else have a link to what he was talking about? |
Aerasia
Republic University Minmatar Republic
46
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Posted - 2015.07.18 01:38:10 -
[178] - Quote
Bubba Ovaert wrote:If you think the bittervets are winning the culture war, you're clearly not paying attention. Any culture war is confined entirely to the forums and Jita local.
I don't think we'll see the 'winner' for at least another year. If CCP's M.O. on Opportunities has been any guide, they chose the ~2M SP boost because internally they already had the fight about how much SP is too much/little. It's entirely likely that the value was chosen because they see their biggest retention losses at the 4-6 week mark (remembered from a fanfest vid, can't remember which one though), which is roughly 2M SP worth of sub time. So if you want to see whether the SP grind is really what's pushing people away, eliminate the part where people seem to be dropping out the most and see what it does to your retention numbers.
Unlike Opportunities, they can't do an A/B test on this - they'll just need to drop 2M SP on everybody's head wholesale. Let simmer for 6 months, and have Quant look over the numbers.
A] If retention stays where it is (or somehow drops), we probably won't see another SP grant like this for another half a decade.
B] If retention goes up though, you can bet that reddit thread about how 10M SP is roughly the 'wall' as far as NPE grind goes will get some more attention from CCP.
Quote:Where did CCP say they were going to do this? Here. |
Primary This Rifter
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
872
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Posted - 2015.07.18 01:45:19 -
[179] - Quote
Actually, I don't think a 2M SP starting boost is a particularly bad idea. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
24326
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Posted - 2015.07.18 02:02:17 -
[180] - Quote
Primary This Rifter wrote:Actually, I don't think a 2M SP starting boost is a particularly bad idea. It's about 30 days @2500SP/hr; if it's assigned in the right way I wouldn't have any major problems with it. Especially if such a change offered a reasonable measure of compensation in the form of some assignable SP for those of us that have already trained the skills the newbies would get upon creation (selfish I know, but we would have invested both time and money into those skills).
Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
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