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Baaldor
Dixon Cox Butte Preservation Society Black Legion.
375
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Posted - 2015.07.09 20:46:46 -
[61] - Quote
Enya Sparhawk wrote:Not to continually drag out any points further than need be... this idea came to me just before heading to sleep last night, so I do wish to share it... I think it is important.
This game, the entirety of the EVE universe, is a game built solely upon statistical data. It has been from the start; it is part of the reason why so many people have become so attached to it. They, like myself, are just naturally inclined to stats. It is basically the 'soul' of this game, defining everything we do or how we interact. So to fully remove that quality (at least without trying every option to better adapt it) from a character essential removes any means of better 'defining' a character within this universe; sort of like burning off a set of unique fingerprints. The players then become not apart of the game, but just in it... essentially, a detached shell with no soul; the game becomes a chore and not fun because of the detachment of sentiment. Standardising items, modules and ships within the game is one thing but to do so with the player characters...
In my opinion, that would be the greatest tragedy to this game...
To become something so contrary to CCP's original vision and design...
Huh, i am such the opposite of what you describe. 10 years or so grinding this **** out, and you know what i hate stats..stats are akin to driving a nail through the head of ones ****.
I figured out very early that the social aspect of the game is what made things happen. And that forging social bonds actually helped me survive and thrive.
Not stats.
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Nana Skalski
Poseidaon
380
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Posted - 2015.07.09 20:55:47 -
[62] - Quote
Baaldor wrote:Enya Sparhawk wrote:Not to continually drag out any points further than need be... this idea came to me just before heading to sleep last night, so I do wish to share it... I think it is important.
This game, the entirety of the EVE universe, is a game built solely upon statistical data. It has been from the start; it is part of the reason why so many people have become so attached to it. They, like myself, are just naturally inclined to stats. It is basically the 'soul' of this game, defining everything we do or how we interact. So to fully remove that quality (at least without trying every option to better adapt it) from a character essential removes any means of better 'defining' a character within this universe; sort of like burning off a set of unique fingerprints. The players then become not apart of the game, but just in it... essentially, a detached shell with no soul; the game becomes a chore and not fun because of the detachment of sentiment. Standardising items, modules and ships within the game is one thing but to do so with the player characters...
In my opinion, that would be the greatest tragedy to this game...
To become something so contrary to CCP's original vision and design...
Huh, i am such the opposite of what you describe. 10 years or so grinding this **** out, and you know what i hate stats..stats are akin to driving a nail through the head of ones ****. I figured out very early that the social aspect of the game is what made things happen. And that forging social bonds actually helped me survive and thrive. Not stats. So why do you even train them if they are so bad?
( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)
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Baaldor
Dixon Cox Butte Preservation Society Black Legion.
375
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Posted - 2015.07.09 21:07:07 -
[63] - Quote
Nana Skalski wrote:Baaldor wrote:Enya Sparhawk wrote:Not to continually drag out any points further than need be... this idea came to me just before heading to sleep last night, so I do wish to share it... I think it is important.
This game, the entirety of the EVE universe, is a game built solely upon statistical data. It has been from the start; it is part of the reason why so many people have become so attached to it. They, like myself, are just naturally inclined to stats. It is basically the 'soul' of this game, defining everything we do or how we interact. So to fully remove that quality (at least without trying every option to better adapt it) from a character essential removes any means of better 'defining' a character within this universe; sort of like burning off a set of unique fingerprints. The players then become not apart of the game, but just in it... essentially, a detached shell with no soul; the game becomes a chore and not fun because of the detachment of sentiment. Standardising items, modules and ships within the game is one thing but to do so with the player characters...
In my opinion, that would be the greatest tragedy to this game...
To become something so contrary to CCP's original vision and design...
Huh, i am such the opposite of what you describe. 10 years or so grinding this **** out, and you know what i hate stats..stats are akin to driving a nail through the head of ones ****. I figured out very early that the social aspect of the game is what made things happen. And that forging social bonds actually helped me survive and thrive. Not stats. So why do you even train them if they are so bad?
I just pushed button, look at when it is to be finished shrug shoulders and then play the game with in the limits of my skills.
Now it is pretty moot. now I just push button on the longest skill of somesort so I can ignore it or stack up my skill que for a over a year, and when one finsihes it is momentary "oh cool" and then do whatever it was i was doing. |
Nana Skalski
Poseidaon
380
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Posted - 2015.07.09 22:01:03 -
[64] - Quote
So you have to play the game in constraints, as everything is harder on beginning, and you have to acnowledge that and can do nothing about it, still you have to comply. How is that near to a real life? How is that real?
( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3050
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Posted - 2015.07.09 22:11:01 -
[65] - Quote
Hengle Teron wrote:They are there, so we can either choose to train anything at same speed, or limit ourselves only to specific skill groups, but train those faster.
I insist you stop being logical at once!
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Webvan
All Kill No Skill
10816
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Posted - 2015.07.09 23:35:21 -
[66] - Quote
Well what it really comes down to is some people don't like the idea of having the choice to just balance out their attributes on their own, and/or that others choose not to, but rather to have mommy CCP remove it and by default balance out everyone's attributes by such a removal.
So then all training time becomes balanced, which they could already do by just balancing their attributes right now. It also puts CCP in a no win situation, since now they will complain that training is too slow and want it all accelerated as if they had max attributes in everything. CCP is in a far better position by just letting us decide for ourselves, lest it become the slippery slope. |
Ramshack Z
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
23
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Posted - 2015.07.10 00:04:51 -
[67] - Quote
I don't see the big fuss.
Remaps add depth and planning, yes. It rewards me for spending half an hour working out how to train my alts before I throw in the implants, remap, and let them gestate for a couple months. Can't say that I'd really be bothered if I lost that 30 mins of content. |
Ultim8Evil
Ministry Of Eternal Disorder
162
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Posted - 2015.07.10 00:31:20 -
[68] - Quote
If you set them all to roughly equal and just go about your business, it's as if they aren't there. |
Webvan
All Kill No Skill
10816
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Posted - 2015.07.10 00:36:48 -
[69] - Quote
Now if this were to be an intended discussion about improving it rather than removing it, I'd say..
- Add a couple points on max cap per attribute.
- Add in some extra points to spend into attributes.
- The catch is, as you start to reach max cap on an attribute, it costs more points.
In this way, you can put in a couple more attribute points into a single attribute, but also you can choose to simply balance all your stats so that you wind up with a little better training speed across the board. This simply does not remove consequences, but gives a greater flexibility in decision making.
I'm not saying that it's what I want, but simply a possible change that is logical to the system while still retaining the consequences. |
Commander Spurty
Dimension Door We need wards.
1503
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Posted - 2015.07.10 03:42:14 -
[70] - Quote
When I first learned about clones, I automatically thought "oh I'll have different clones configured for different training".
Well, it made sense to me that a different clone could contain different strengths and weaknesses.
Heh attributes are very important early game. After 100mill skill points, sort of not so much of a rush to do much.
You saying you want to water down the experience?
There are good ships
And wood ships
And ships that sail the sea
But the best ships are
Spaceships
Built by CCP
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Mr Mieyli
Hedion University Amarr Empire
14
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Posted - 2015.07.10 05:46:43 -
[71] - Quote
I've always viewed attributes as a way for people to put in more effort to maximise their skill training and not as a "you need to do this to be competitive". My main has had a (fairly) balanced remap for most of his career and I don't feel like I've lost out as a result. I also think that allowing you to train certain groups of skills faster at the expense of others is balanced and is a meaningful choice (something CCP are apparently striving for).
Removing attributes and doing nothing else does just remove a layer of depth from the game, and for what gain? EvE is not, and barring massive changes never will be be, an intuitive game for a new player. It is a game about planning and just like most everything else in the game if you put more time and thought into your attributes / skill plan you can get more of a reward back from it. I would not be against reworking attributes to make them more relevant but flat out removing the depth they currently provide is bad in my opinion. |
Omar Alharazaad
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
2139
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Posted - 2015.07.10 10:28:04 -
[72] - Quote
I have an idea, one that should make everyone equally unhappy. Parity is important, right?
Remove all attributes. Double all training times. For learning implants reduce training time by 4% per tier of implant plugged in (ie, your trusty old +5 implant now gives you 20% off training times) with a full set you're back down to a mere 100% base training time! For extra flavor add in an omega implant that increases the bonus of the others to the point where a full set might get you almost down to where you would be now, but not quite.
Problem solved. nobody is at a disadvantage. everyone equally annoyed.
Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.
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Dominique Vasilkovsky
BFG Tech
289
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Posted - 2015.07.10 10:42:50 -
[73] - Quote
Mr Mieyli wrote:Removing attributes and doing nothing else does just remove a layer of depth from the game, and for what gain? EvE is not, and barring massive changes never will be be, an intuitive game for a new player. It is a game about planning and just like most everything else in the game if you put more time and thought into your attributes / skill plan you can get more of a reward back from it. I would not be against reworking attributes to make them more relevant but flat out removing the depth they currently provide is bad in my opinion. Actually, CCP already ruined the depth when they introduced the neural remaps. Now they may as well just finish the job and get rid of the attributes once and for all, their purpose is lost already.
Dominique Vasilkovsky EVEboard
Once known as:
Mashie Saldana sold - Anastasia Rigel sold - Monica Foulkes sold
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Knights Armament
State Protectorate Caldari State
250
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Posted - 2015.07.10 12:15:10 -
[74] - Quote
GAJY wrote:For me personally I just see them and attribute implants as an extra thing to put new players off PVP. For people I know who play, they're just a nuisance and they wouldn't care if they were gone, just something you have to remap once in awhile and spend money on, yet it adds nothing to the experience.
They make it hurt more to lose in pvp which discourages pvp, but it also makes psychopaths happy knowing you can't replace them. The great attracting factor of EvE is that it provides sadistic gratification. On one hand you'll have more PvP, but on the otherhand it won't be as meaningful because ships are easily replaced.
https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=29554516-05f9-4eca-a942-32e1701a6569&action=buddy
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GAJY
The Monkey Island Cannibals
4
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Posted - 2015.07.11 12:46:24 -
[75] - Quote
I'm all for complexity and death penalties, but I just don't think attributes add anything. Ship implants make perfect sense, they have a function, but I just don't see why the implants are there to make people train faster. I'd much rather have other things help you train faster, maybe actually doing the thing you want to train? For example using the Hybrid turrets giving you a slight boost while you're training them.
Maybe get rid of the stupid training system, something that is becoming so trivial for older players. What about using a SWG Pre CU system where you have a skill cap and you have to switch around wen you want to do something else. Then combine that with training what you're doing like I said above and put in that Valkyrie combat system so tie it altogether.
Something needs to change for EVE to stay relevant, it cannot stay the same in fear of pissing people off. If something doesn't work then roll back, don't do what SOE does and ignore the players, but you need to keep pushing forward and making changes. |
Algarion Getz
Aideron Corp
41
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Posted - 2015.07.11 17:07:47 -
[76] - Quote
Chance Ravinne wrote:Moac Tor wrote:Chance Ravinne wrote:Attributes aren't the Big Bad, but they're certainly an unintuitive and unfun system. The mourning process following their demise will be short. Speak for yourself, I find the decisions which the current system present the player quite interesting, and if your looking for a game in which things are intuitive then your in the wrong game. Removing attributes would fix literally nothing and at the same time remove an element of the game some players find interesting. If you don't like the system then just put on a balanced remap and you can train your skills however you like. I don't like the system because as a min maxer it forces me to plan around pointless arbitrary figures that have no meaningful in game effect. As for character differentiation, that's what overpriced digital apparel is for, and the best part is other players can actually see it. 99% of the time we interact with spaceships in EVE. Cosmetic stuff is useless, unless CCP makes WIS (walking in stations). And even then, i wouldnt consider it as meaningful, because it has no effect on the actual game.
I say expand the attribute system, FOR EXAMPLE give players with high intelligence a bonus to hacking. Make remaps a tradeable item which costs only a few mill. (This is just an idea, there are probably better ways to expand the attribute system.) |
Noobshot Elongur
Blitzkrieg.
8
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Posted - 2015.07.11 20:14:39 -
[77] - Quote
I read all these post and listen to the complaints..... For some strange reason the only thing that is registering to me is the bitter vet tears that are going non-collected. All it took me was a google search, watching a 5 minute video on youtube, and 20 minutes to plan out my neural remap and training queue to max out the amount of SP per hour (2700 is the max you can get by the way.)
Less yappin', more flying/shooting/pirating/what ever..... Back to the game. Some of you are sounding off like World of Warcraft players. |
Harrison Tato
Yamato Holdings
422
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Posted - 2015.07.11 20:17:44 -
[78] - Quote
Baaldor wrote:
I figured out very early that the social aspect of the game is what made things happen. And that forging social bonds actually helped me survive and thrive.
Not stats.
Blob = win. |
Mr Mieyli
Hedion University Amarr Empire
16
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Posted - 2015.07.11 20:49:08 -
[79] - Quote
Harrison Tato wrote:Baaldor wrote:
I figured out very early that the social aspect of the game is what made things happen. And that forging social bonds actually helped me survive and thrive.
Not stats.
Blob = win.
It's almost like eve is a team game or something.
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Baaldor
Dixon Cox Butte Preservation Society Black Legion.
381
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Posted - 2015.07.13 14:18:26 -
[80] - Quote
Harrison Tato wrote:Baaldor wrote:
I figured out very early that the social aspect of the game is what made things happen. And that forging social bonds actually helped me survive and thrive.
Not stats.
Blob = win.
Nice how you widdle it down to fit your myopic viewpoint.
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Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
2
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Posted - 2015.07.15 03:59:22 -
[81] - Quote
GAJY wrote:For me personally I just see them and attribute implants as an extra thing to put new players off PVP. For people I know who play, they're just a nuisance and they wouldn't care if they were gone, just something you have to remap once in awhile and spend money on, yet it adds nothing to the experience.
Well the game is around 12 years old, what made sense then doesn't necessarily make sense now.
Attribute implants are kind of pointless although I believe they have been looking at ways to remove them. I would think a lot of players wouldn't care too much if they were removed except for those that sell them.
Of course there will be those that won't like the change as some people just don't like change. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3071
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Posted - 2015.07.15 04:22:55 -
[82] - Quote
GAJY wrote:For me personally I just see them and attribute implants as an extra thing to put new players off PVP. For people I know who play, they're just a nuisance and they wouldn't care if they were gone, just something you have to remap once in awhile and spend money on, yet it adds nothing to the experience.
Malcanis strikes again!!!
Not that I'd expect the OP to click the link or even get the argument.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Wendrika Hydreiga
431
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Posted - 2015.07.15 10:20:23 -
[83] - Quote
Why are some of you guys giving Chance so much flack? So he can't have a stance over the existance of attributes, is that it?
Attributes are dumb. An artifact of the old learning skills that should have been retired along with them. Training skills at different speeds, and the logistics behind remaps can make or break a character over a long period of time. Learning implants work as a deterrent for conflict, and having to choose between training faster, risking important implants with zero impact on combat, or juggle with jump clones for a compromise between the later two is really bad.
We could have a flexible SP system like in Dust 514, but we can't without an entourage of torches and pitchforks chanting over their skill plans or how "casual" active skill gain is. Plus, we can't have active skill gain anyways, not while Attributes reign over our passive skill gain. If instead of of learning implants we had learning boosters that gave us a temporary flat multiplier of our skill gain, things would be much simpler than having five flavours of implants in our heads, with only two giving us beneficts at a time.
Moan all you want over keeping EVE "pure" and filled with "deep choices". Like Clone Updates and Skill Point losses, Attributes have their days numbered, and their destiny is sealed once Brain In The Box becomes a thing. Deal with it. |
Hicksimus
Oblivion Incarnate Sock Puppet Federation
662
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Posted - 2015.07.15 12:44:40 -
[84] - Quote
I actually like attribute points because they reward players that can be bothered to educate themselves without ruining the game for the "casual" crowd. Mechanics that function like that are welcome in my EvE.
Recruitment Officer: What type of a pilot are you?
Me: I've been described as a Ray Charles with Parkinsons and a drinking problem.
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Aerasia
Republic University Minmatar Republic
42
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Posted - 2015.07.15 14:38:11 -
[85] - Quote
Removing barriers to entry for new players is a good thing, specifically when such changes are to the basic game mechanics instead of targeted condition changes to a particular subgroup?
I think you might have used the wrong emote there.
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