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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2006.11.30 01:39:00 -
[1]
First off, how do I define "overpowered" ? My definition is (so far) "not worth fitting anything else instead". The (very short) list of those rigs only spans a short list of modules so far (feel free to add some).
1. Capacitor Control Circuit (Tech 1 gives -15% cap recharge time with no drawbacks)
Can fit 3 on any T1/faction ship, those 3 give +62.83% cap recharge rate. Simply put, this combo on top of proper module setup can out-tank just about any other possible (comparable) active tank, with no penalities whatsoever, and also gives a lot of "free cap" to either lessen NOSage or supplement offensive capabilities. You can argue a cap injector and damage mods would do you more good, but considering fights take longer "nowadays" and the fact damage rigs are stacking-nerfed, it's simply unfeasable in comparison.
2. Core Defence Field Purger (Tech 1 gives -20% shield recharge time with +10% sigradius drawback) Well, this one is a bit less overpowered as the one above, but at least for passive shield-tanking ships (especially those with shield resist bonuses), it's a godsend. Personally, I wouldn't use any other rig than this. Well, the T2 version instead, maybe. Har.
Feel free to argue what other rigs might be considered "overpowered", but at lest DO NOT forget to factor in (and describe) the situation it is used in (and the corresponding ship setup). _____ -sig-
This is my only char. These are my skills
Always question everything, including yourself |
Daos Leghki
Paxton Industries
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Posted - 2006.11.30 01:46:00 -
[2]
I'll say this, although I don't agree with it. People are going to claim that using the rig at all is a drawback.
Repopulate Low-Sec Paxton Industries is Recruiting
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Matuk Grymwal
PAX Interstellar Services Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2006.11.30 02:09:00 -
[3]
Have you tested that 3xCCU setup, or is that theoretical? In the early stages I certainly found I could load up on rigs, but towards the end of testing as they got tweaked I found it harder to get 3 rigs installed. My ships were generally running out of calibration after 2 rigs, requiring that the 3rd slot empty.
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Dave Tehsulei
0utbreak
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Posted - 2006.11.30 02:11:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Dave Tehsulei on 30/11/2006 02:12:05
Just about all the rigs need looking at,
tanking and fitting rigs were boosted just before kali went live and had very little play testing
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Mudkest
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Posted - 2006.11.30 02:15:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Mudkest on 30/11/2006 02:17:11 seen that lovely rig in electronics that lower the cpu requirment of modules that require electronics upgrades? should also be looked at, but not cause of overpowderedness :)
- When talking about the itsy bitsy spider, try not to start with itchy, you'll get the second part wrong as well |
Vantick Iscod
Wolfenrecon Center for Disease Creation
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Posted - 2006.11.30 02:19:00 -
[6]
Check out cargo expander rigs.
40k+ cargo hold in an Itty 5.
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Ariel Dawn
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Posted - 2006.11.30 04:06:00 -
[7]
Just some questions concerning diminishing returns with rigs.
Do rigs stack with eachother? Do rigs stack with modules providing similar bonuses?
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Xori Ruscuv
Vendetta Underground Rule of Three
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Posted - 2006.11.30 04:13:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 30/11/2006 04:13:49
Originally by: Akita T
1. Capacitor Control Circuit (Tech 1 gives -15% cap recharge time with no drawbacks)
Is it really -15%? Or is it -15 seconds?
For some reason I'm thinking that if they meant -15%, it would have read something like: Cap recharge time bonus: 0.15% Seems to be consistent with other numbers in CCP's item data sheets, anyway.
EDIT: I didn't test this out on Sisi, btw, so I'm speculating as much as anyone who wasn't on test.
It's great playing Caldari-online, isn't it?
This IS my main! I just did a portrait swap... |
ramptrick
Caldari Art of War Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2006.11.30 04:33:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Akita T First off, how do I define "overpowered" ? My definition is (so far) "not worth fitting anything else instead". The (very short) list of those rigs only spans a short list of modules so far (feel free to add some).
1. Capacitor Control Circuit (Tech 1 gives -15% cap recharge time with no drawbacks)
Can fit 3 on any T1/faction ship, those 3 give +62.83% cap recharge rate. Simply put, this combo on top of proper module setup can out-tank just about any other possible (comparable) active tank, with no penalities whatsoever, and also gives a lot of "free cap" to either lessen NOSage or supplement offensive capabilities. You can argue a cap injector and damage mods would do you more good, but considering fights take longer "nowadays" and the fact damage rigs are stacking-nerfed, it's simply unfeasable in comparison.
2. Core Defence Field Purger (Tech 1 gives -20% shield recharge time with +10% sigradius drawback) Well, this one is a bit less overpowered as the one above, but at least for passive shield-tanking ships (especially those with shield resist bonuses), it's a godsend. Personally, I wouldn't use any other rig than this. Well, the T2 version instead, maybe. Har.
Feel free to argue what other rigs might be considered "overpowered", but at lest DO NOT forget to factor in (and describe) the situation it is used in (and the corresponding ship setup).
i tried this on the test server and you cant fit 3 of all one type of rig to your ship!! 2 max for each type..
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2006.11.30 05:03:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Ariel Dawn Just some questions concerning diminishing returns with rigs. Do rigs stack with eachother? Do rigs stack with modules providing similar bonuses?
As Jiekon already said (in one of the threads from the deleted "Revelations" forum): yes, and yes. But ONLY for the ATTRIBUTES that have the "stacking nerfable" flag.
So, if one certain attribute (like cap recharge time, shield recharge time, CPU use, grid use, speed, etc) does NOT have that "flag", none of the modules nor rigs affecting it will be stacking nerfed. All other attributes that DO have the "stacking nerf" flag will get stacking nerfs for all modules or rigs affecting them. That includes damage mods, scan resolution and so on and so forth.
Originally by: Xori Ruscuv
Originally by: Akita T
1. Capacitor Control Circuit (Tech 1 gives -15% cap recharge time with no drawbacks)
Is it really -15%? Or is it -15 seconds?
The display inconsistencies in module attributes never cease to amaze me... a 15% reduction in a recharge time might get mentioned as "-15" or "-15%" or "x0.85" or "x0.85%" or even "-0.15" or "-0.15%". For this specific rig, yes, it is a 15% reduction in cap recharge time... the rig has the SAME effect as a cap recharger 1.
Originally by: Matuk Grymwal Have you tested that 3xCCU setup, or is that theoretical? In the early stages I certainly found I could load up on rigs, but towards the end of testing as they got tweaked I found it harder to get 3 rigs installed. My ships were generally running out of calibration after 2 rigs, requiring that the 3rd slot empty.
Calibration points on T1 ships: 400 Calibration points on faction ships: 350 CCCI calibration usage: 100
You can fit 3 of them and still have leftover calibration (but no slots). The Tech2 version takes 150 calibration points and gives a -20% cap recharge time reduction... so you COULD fit 2 T2s and one T1 on a T1 ship, or 1 T2 and 2 T1s on a faction ship. _____ -sig-
This is my only char. These are my skills
Always question everything, including yourself |
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Kldraina
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Posted - 2006.11.30 06:45:00 -
[11]
Unless I managed to missread it (which is entirely possible) the Core Defence Field Purger II took a mere 75 calibration, for a 25% reduction in shield recharge time. This seems way too good to me. Even the Shield Power Relay II is only a 24% reduction, and it has a much more severe penalty in my opinion. |
Tehyarec
Erasers inc. Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2006.11.30 07:15:00 -
[12]
Is the capacitor recharge rig good? Yes. Overpowered? I don't see why, because everyone can use it just the same, plus better cap recharge might not be better than putting on damage-related mods. After all what good is good cap recharge at the end of the day if the other guy does so insane DPS that your repaired HP per second simply can't keep up, even if it does take longer to chew through all the added HP? Blasterships with MFS IIs and damage rigs come to mind. You can get some pretty sick DPS.
The cap recharge rigs definitely will help a lot for missions though.
Ok, granted that maybe there COULD be some penalty added for the rig. But I don't think a 10% base penalty for, for example, CPU, would make sense, it'd be too severe in turn.
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Pottsey
Gallente Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2006.11.30 08:58:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Pottsey on 30/11/2006 08:58:31 ô2. Core Defence Field Purger (Tech 1 gives -20% shield recharge time with +10% sigradius drawback) Well, this one is a bit less overpowered as the one above, but at least for passive shield-tanking shipsö Have you compared this on a passive tank to the other shield rigs on an active shield tank? You should still find the active tank is better so its not overpowerd. Though thats how it feels not ran the math.
I know on my Eos there isnÆt much difference between active amour tanking or Passive shield. Active is better but they are pretty much the same. So I dont see the rigs makeing much diffrance both will get better.
The Core Defence Field Purger makes you take more damage and when you add the +sig from the rig with the +sig from extenders I donÆt think its overpower.
Has anyone got the rigs built yet? I am looking to buy at least 10 Core Defence Field Purger and will even pay for the blueprint and give it to the builder.
Passive shield tanking guide click here |
Leandro Salazar
Aeon Industries Confederation of Independent Corporations
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Posted - 2006.11.30 11:49:00 -
[14]
I am guessing that the missile exp radius rig might be 'slightly' overpowered as well, seeing how two of them in combination with GMP 5 and the 5% implant allow you to drop cruise missile exp radius to 158 m....
--------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
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Jim McGregor
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Posted - 2006.11.30 11:52:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 30/11/2006 11:52:21
People will get slaughtered out there to setups people will keep a secret. And even when they do manage to take the rigged ship down, the rigs are not on the kill mails and will remain a secret.
So I fully expect posts like "I got killed by a stabber in my Rohk" etc. --- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2006.11.30 12:18:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Akita T on 30/11/2006 12:27:46
Originally by: Tehyarec Is the capacitor recharge rig good? Yes. Overpowered? I don't see why [...]After all what good is good cap recharge at the end of the day if the other guy does so insane DPS that your repaired HP per second simply can't keep up, even if it does take longer to chew through all the added HP? Blasterships with MFS IIs and damage rigs come to mind. You can get some pretty sick DPS.
No you can't. Ever tried adding a 4th or 5th MFS ? Know how much that helps to your DPS ? Right, almost not at all. Want to know wha 3 MFS and 3 hybrid damage and/or RoF rigs would do ? More or less the same as 4-5 MFSs. But with a huge increase in weapon fitting requirements. Damage mods AND damage rigs son't mix, just like you don't use more than 3 damage mods (unless maybe it's an extreme fleet setup, still I could think of better slot usage than a 4th MFS).
Originally by: Leandro Salazar I am guessing that the missile exp radius rig might be 'slightly' overpowered as well, seeing how two of them in combination with GMP 5 and the 5% implant allow you to drop cruise missile exp radius to 158 m....
Hmmz, you're right, there's no reason to assume missile explosion radius is a stacking-nerfed attribute, so this might just be one of the "overpowered" rigs (but only for dedicated missile users).
Originally by: Pottsey Edited by: Pottsey on 30/11/2006 08:58:31 “2. Core Defence Field Purger (Tech 1 gives -20% shield recharge time with +10% sigradius drawback) Well, this one is a bit less overpowered as the one above, but at least for passive shield-tanking ships” Have you compared this on a passive tank to the other shield rigs on an active shield tank? You should still find the active tank is better so its not overpowerd. Though thats how it feels not ran the math.
The Core Defence Field Purger makes you take more damage and when you add the +sig from the rig with the +sig from extenders I don’t think its overpower. Has anyone got the rigs built yet? I am looking to buy at least 10 Core Defence Field Purger and will even pay for the blueprint and give it to the builder.
You mean, compare an active shield tank vs a passive shield tank on the same ship ? BCs and CBCs would be just about the only types of ships where this is an issue, and probably the only ones coming slightly on top on active shielding might be the Minmatar ones. For all others, I guess passive shieldtank should be better. Well, let's do the math anyway (back in a few minutes with it).
As for the sig penality... with L5 shield rigging and T2 rig, you get -25% shield recharge time (+33.33% recharge rate) and a mere +5% sig radius per module (+15.7625% with all three rigs). That's +137% shield recharge rate (i.e. x2.37) for a laughable +15.7% sig radius increase. _____ -sig-
This is my only char. These are my skills
Always question everything, including yourself |
Ithildin
Gallente The Corporation The Corporation Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.30 12:23:00 -
[17]
Akita T, I'd say that just about any rig that gives something for nothing is overpowered. This means that you can a) fit a full rack of the rigs and b) their drawbacks do not detract from their intent. A rig can also be situationally (OK, it's not a proper word, but...) overpowered.
Not overpowered. For this reason a armour amount rig can not be overpowered since it's drawback punishes velocity, making the ships the rig would otherwise be ideal to (close range ships) prefere other rigs.
Situationally overpowered. I believe the speed rigs offer ship velocity in trade for armour amount. While it can hardly be said to be overpowered on an armour reliant ship, at the same time a ship which shield tanks/extends would not care about armour levels and it would then be overpowered.
Overpowered. Perfect example in OP.
Originally by: Pottsey Edited by: Pottsey on 30/11/2006 08:58:31 ô2. Core Defence Field Purger (Tech 1 gives -20% shield recharge time with +10% sigradius drawback) Well, this one is a bit less overpowered as the one above, but at least for passive shield-tanking shipsö Have you compared this on a passive tank to the other shield rigs on an active shield tank? You should still find the active tank is better so its not overpowerd. Though thats how it feels not ran the math.
I'm afraid that logic deduction is wrong as it assume that one unit of passive recharge is of the same value as one uit of active recharge.
Quote: The Core Defence Field Purger makes you take more damage and when you add the +sig from the rig with the +sig from extenders I donÆt think its overpower.
I would say that in most cases a signature radius penalty is by no means a harsh penalty. I've seen no implementations of this penalty where it is of significant proportion. Although, the Core Defence Field Purger does have a harsher penalty than, say, a Shield Extender (which' penalty does little to deter "over-plating").
Nevertheless a 30 to 40 meter signature radius increase on a battlecruiser makes hardly no difference in practice. - EVE is sick. |
Scholard
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Posted - 2006.11.30 12:41:00 -
[18]
I'm sure I am being a bit dim here, but can someone point me at a Rig FAQ or summary, even a list of rigs. The patch notes have linkages to everything (Exploration, Invention etc) except rigs. There is a separate forum thread for each new concept - except rigs. I can't even find them in the Item database. I'm sure all this must be here somewhere but I have spent longer than I should have and still not found it.
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Pottsey
Gallente Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2006.11.30 12:47:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Pottsey on 30/11/2006 12:49:41 ôNevertheless a 30 to 40 meter signature radius increase on a battlecruiser makes hardly no difference in practice.ö That depends on how the stacking order works. If you add the sig from the extender then the x% from the rig it could make a difference. Though if its rig first then extender its not as bad. Anyone know which order it is?
ôYou mean, compare an active shield tank vs a passive shield tank on the same ship ?ö Yes, if the passive tanks still come out worse then an active tank setup then the rig is not overpowered. Even if you compare passive tank on one ship to an active tank on another ship of the same class, as long as its comparable in power there isnÆt a problem. Unless passive tanks are suddenly due to this rig tanking 100Æs more DPS then active tanks then I donÆt see it as over powered.
ôI'm afraid that logic deduction is wrong as it assume that one unit of passive recharge is of the same value as one uit of active recharge.ö The logic isnÆt wrong. I donÆt look at each part of the ship and say thatÆs weak and thatÆs overpowered. Look at the whole ship with everything working together.
What matters is how a full active tank setup compares to a full passive tank setup. Anyway the passive tanking system needs a good look at by one of the devs and it sounded like its on the books for a rewrite/change. Passive tanking is no longer what it used to be and I miss the good old days with the old passive tanks. Not this new styles we now use. Passive shield tanking guide click here |
Loka
Gallente adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.30 13:04:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Loka on 30/11/2006 13:06:13 just tried to fit 3 of the cap recharge rigs (T1) on a rokh. The rokh was complete empty, besides the Rigslots i fit in one after the other.
The outcome: Base 9000 cap 1125 sec rechargetime 1 Rig: 9000 - 956 sec (17,6%) 2 Rig¦s: 9000 - 812 sec (17,7%) 3 Rig¦s: 9000 - 690 sec (17,7%)
so yes it is possible to fit 3 of same category on your ship. And as you see, they dont have any stacking penalty on them. _________________________ Noob In Action - [NIA]
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Hoshi
DAB RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.30 13:04:00 -
[21]
Please only use t1 rigs for balance calcs, the t2 rigs are going to be as rare and expensive as officer mods with the way rig building and invention are today. ---------------------------------------- A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations |
Loka
Gallente adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.30 13:07:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Hoshi Please only use t1 rigs for balance calcs, the t2 rigs are going to be as rare and expensive as officer mods with the way rig building and invention are today.
I used the T1 version only! _________________________ Noob In Action - [NIA]
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Joseph Polaski
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Posted - 2006.11.30 13:07:00 -
[23]
What about that one rig under energy grid rigs that gives a 10+ PG to a ship? I didn't see any drawbacks and it seems way too useful for frigates.....
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Laboratus
Gallente BGG Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.30 13:15:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Akita T First off, how do I define "overpowered" ? My definition is (so far) "not worth fitting anything else instead". The (very short) list of those rigs only spans a short list of modules so far (feel free to add some).
1. Capacitor Control Circuit (Tech 1 gives -15% cap recharge time with no drawbacks)
Can fit 3 on any T1/faction ship, those 3 give +62.83% cap recharge rate. Simply put, this combo on top of proper module setup can out-tank just about any other possible (comparable) active tank, with no penalities whatsoever, and also gives a lot of "free cap" to either lessen NOSage or supplement offensive capabilities. You can argue a cap injector and damage mods would do you more good, but considering fights take longer "nowadays" and the fact damage rigs are stacking-nerfed, it's simply unfeasable in comparison.
2. Core Defence Field Purger (Tech 1 gives -20% shield recharge time with +10% sigradius drawback) Well, this one is a bit less overpowered as the one above, but at least for passive shield-tanking ships (especially those with shield resist bonuses), it's a godsend. Personally, I wouldn't use any other rig than this. Well, the T2 version instead, maybe. Har.
Feel free to argue what other rigs might be considered "overpowered", but at lest DO NOT forget to factor in (and describe) the situation it is used in (and the corresponding ship setup).
I do recall reading in the dev blogs that you can only fit one rig of each type. Or that you can, but they give no benefit. You could fit the CCC I and CCC II, in the same ship though. Anyways, couldn't find the article, but I'll search a bit and put a link here when I find it. ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats |
Loka
Gallente adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.30 13:21:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Loka on 30/11/2006 13:21:26
Originally by: Laboratus I do recall reading in the dev blogs that you can only fit one rig of each type. Or that you can, but they give no benefit. You could fit the CCC I and CCC II, in the same ship though. Anyways, couldn't find the article, but I'll search a bit and put a link here when I find it.
Well than its not ingame. I just fitted 3 Rigs of same type, look at the picture. _________________________ Noob In Action - [NIA]
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Laboratus
Gallente BGG Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.30 13:29:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Loka
Well than its not ingame. I just fitted 3 Rigs of same type, look at the picture.
Kewl. Triple drone damage mods, here I come! ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats |
ZelRox
Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.11.30 13:32:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Loka Edited by: Loka on 30/11/2006 13:21:26 Well than its not ingame. I just fitted 3 Rigs of same type, look at the picture.
at setup ----------------------
BiH 4tw |
Hoshi
DAB RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.30 13:36:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Loka
Originally by: Hoshi Please only use t1 rigs for balance calcs, the t2 rigs are going to be as rare and expensive as officer mods with the way rig building and invention are today.
I used the T1 version only!
Yeah I know but there where lots of other people here starting to do their calcs with t2 rigs. ---------------------------------------- A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations |
Loka
Gallente adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.30 13:39:00 -
[29]
Originally by: ZelRox
Originally by: Loka Edited by: Loka on 30/11/2006 13:21:26 Well than its not ingame. I just fitted 3 Rigs of same type, look at the picture.
at setup
Hey its not l33t. Just tried if its possible to have 8 425mm T2 fitted with an active XLarge T2 tank ^^. And yes it was.
Worst resistance was around 70 with my decend shield/caldari skills btw. Someone with good shield and caldari skills should squeeze more out of it.
Ofc for fleet oyu will have put some SB II on it. As i said just wanted to see how an active 425mm II setup would perform and how long i can run the XLarge II Booster, which gives me 200 hp/s ;) on that setup _________________________ Noob In Action - [NIA]
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Iyanah
Minmatar Mining Munitions and Mayhem
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Posted - 2006.11.30 13:47:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Ariel Dawn Just some questions concerning diminishing returns with rigs.
Do rigs stack with eachother? Do rigs stack with modules providing similar bonuses?
yes, they do appear to do so, but they incur the stacking penalties as normal ========================================== Iy |
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Ithildin
Gallente The Corporation The Corporation Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.30 14:11:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Laboratus
Originally by: Loka
Originally by: ZelRox
Originally by: Loka Edited by: Loka on 30/11/2006 13:21:26 Well than its not ingame. I just fitted 3 Rigs of same type, look at the picture.
at setup
Hey its not l33t. Just tried if its possible to have 8 425mm T2 fitted with an active XLarge T2 tank ^^. And yes it was.
Worst resistance was around 70 with my decend shield/caldari skills btw. Someone with good shield and caldari skills should squeeze more out of it.
Ofc for fleet oyu will have put some SB II on it. As i said just wanted to see how an active 425mm II setup would perform and how long i can run the XLarge II Booster, which gives me 200 hp/s ;) on that setup
How long can you sustain cap with that?
It's not sustainable (55.56 peak recharge versus 60 drain on the XLarge) but I'd wager it could run that tank "long enough"Ö - EVE is sick. |
JeanPierre
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Posted - 2006.11.30 14:38:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Dave Tehsulei Edited by: Dave Tehsulei on 30/11/2006 02:12:05
Just about all the rigs need looking at,
tanking and fitting rigs were boosted just before kali went live and had very little play testing
So...
If all rigs need "looking at", meaning they're all theoretically overpowered, doesn't that mean that the use of them by everybody, will balance out the overpower? As such, that means rigging becomes just what it was intended, further ship customization.
Seems that way to me.
I wonder if some people, having won their state lottery, would complain because the check of their first payment was not the color of green that they like?
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Imhotep Khem
Total Mayhem.
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Posted - 2006.11.30 14:45:00 -
[33]
The game is becoming too complicated. It was hard enough to balance the ships as they were. This is a sad day as I do not expect CCP to recover from this one. Rigs do not add anything to the gameplay tbh. I think they will make folks eventually have multiple ships for different purposes. Its just not worth it. Kind of depressing. ____ "If your not dyin' your not tryin'." "Are you prepared to go all the way, Alexi?" DuGalle |
JeanPierre
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Posted - 2006.11.30 14:51:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Imhotep Khem The game is becoming too complicated. It was hard enough to balance the ships as they were. This is a sad day as I do not expect CCP to recover from this one. Rigs do not add anything to the gameplay tbh. I think they will make folks eventually have multiple ships for different purposes. Its just not worth it. Kind of depressing.
Man, that does suck.
I was at home last night, and was making a birdhouse with my son. Now it's all woodworking, but wouldn't you know it, the Life Developers made it so that I had to use different tools to achieve different things with the project. Really, it was far too complex. We should petition the Life Developers and ask that all woodworking be accomplished with the UniSaw, a single tool that does everything for every conceivable role.
The point of EVE is to not be super easy and 14 year old kid ready. It's complex. I like it that way. I think most people here do as well. Adds spice that WoW just can't deliver.
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Loka
Gallente adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.30 14:54:00 -
[35]
Originally by: JeanPierre
The point of EVE is to not be super easy and 14 year old kid ready. It's complex. I like it that way. I think most people here do as well. Adds spice that WoW just can't deliver.
Well i doubt he ment its too complex for the players. I think he ment it is too complex for the DEVS to keep the stuff in EVE ballanced and still variable.
And i agree, ballance is something hard to accomplish and with Rigs it will get even more of a nightmare for the DEV¦s _________________________ Noob In Action - [NIA]
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JeanPierre
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Posted - 2006.11.30 15:00:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Loka
Originally by: JeanPierre
The point of EVE is to not be super easy and 14 year old kid ready. It's complex. I like it that way. I think most people here do as well. Adds spice that WoW just can't deliver.
Well i doubt he ment its too complex for the players. I think he ment it is too complex for the DEVS to keep the stuff in EVE ballanced and still variable.
And i agree, ballance is something hard to accomplish and with Rigs it will get even more of a nightmare for the DEV¦s
Balance is a legitimate concern. However, and this is every MMORPG I've ever played, most every call for "balance" is based on either ignorance or "some guy omgwtfpwnd me! That's not fair! Nerf him!"
In the post prior to the one you responded to (my post that is), I mentioned that if all of these are "overpowered", then their use by everybody would actually be the balancing mechanism. So you recharge faster and can armor rep faster with your rigs, however, my rigs increase the damage I'm doing to you enough to make the armor/recharge moot. And so on.
It's like a day after the patch. I think folks should play with the rigs a while before looking at the stats of one or two, crying "omgwtf!" without considering the overal global picture. They may be imbalanced. They may not. When they're used en masse, is when we'll know, I believe.
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Saladin
Minmatar V I R I I Center for Disease Creation
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Posted - 2006.11.30 15:00:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Saladin on 30/11/2006 15:02:35 I wish people would read the info correctly. Its not a -15% to recharge time, its -15 seconds. Meaning its only useful for small ships. This is the same problem as the rig that adds 10MW and everyone things its 10% PG boost. There is one that boosts capacitor energy by 15% and in that case it explicity shows the % symbol.
Check the info for all the rigs, where the bonus is a percentatge it does show a % symbol, where it is a simple fixed bonus there is no % symbol. The devil is in the details. They may be bugged on SiSi now but I am sure it will be sorted out on TQ ----
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JeanPierre
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Posted - 2006.11.30 15:05:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Saladin Edited by: Saladin on 30/11/2006 15:02:35 I wish people would read the info correctly. Its not a -15% to recharge time, its -15 seconds. Meaning its only useful for small ships. This is the same problem as the rig that adds 10MW and everyone things its 10% PG boost. There is one that boosts capacitor energy by 15% and in that case it explicity shows the % symbol.
Check the info for all the rigs, where the bonus is a percentatge it does show a % symbol, where it is a simple fixed bonus there is no % symbol. The devil is in the details. They may be bugged on SiSi now but I am sure it will be sorted out on TQ
Good catch.
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Abye
Caldari Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.11.30 15:12:00 -
[39]
The static modifiers are really nifty for small ships. 10 more PG on a frigate
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Loka
Gallente adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.30 15:13:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Saladin Edited by: Saladin on 30/11/2006 15:02:35 I wish people would read the info correctly. Its not a -15% to recharge time, its -15 seconds. Meaning its only useful for small ships. This is the same problem as the rig that adds 10MW and everyone things its 10% PG boost. There is one that boosts capacitor energy by 15% and in that case it explicity shows the % symbol.
Check the info for all the rigs, where the bonus is a percentatge it does show a % symbol, where it is a simple fixed bonus there is no % symbol. The devil is in the details. They may be bugged on SiSi now but I am sure it will be sorted out on TQ
For you here again two quotes of myself, which proves the oposite, not by just saying it, but through USING them ingame 2h ago.
Originally by: "Loka" just tried to fit 3 of the cap recharge rigs (T1) on a rokh. The rokh was complete empty, besides the Rigslots i fit in one after the other.
The outcome: Base 9000 cap 1125 sec rechargetime 1 Rig: 9000 - 956 sec (17,6%) 2 Rig¦s: 9000 - 812 sec (17,7%) 3 Rig¦s: 9000 - 690 sec (17,7%)
so yes it is possible to fit 3 of same category on your ship. And as you see, they dont have any stacking penalty on them.
This was tested on a EMPTY Rokh. The numbers have been taken after installing one Rig after another. From 1125 sec to 690 sec looks like the flat 60% already said before. If it would have been 3x 15sec the outcome must had been 1125 - 45 sec = 1080sec right?
Originally by: "Loka" Well than its not ingame. I just fitted 3 Rigs of same type, look at the picture.
Here a screenshot made by me ingame of a fitted Rokh with 3x Cap Rigs installed.
Pls dont insult others, if you just think you are right. _________________________ Noob In Action - [NIA]
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Kaylana Syi
Minmatar The Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2006.11.30 15:40:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Imhotep Khem The game is becoming too complicated. It was hard enough to balance the ships as they were. This is a sad day as I do not expect CCP to recover from this one. Rigs do not add anything to the gameplay tbh. I think they will make folks eventually have multiple ships for different purposes. Its just not worth it. Kind of depressing.
I think your assumption is wrong. First of all, rigs are going to cost upwards of 100mil isk for 1 and that is for a less desirable one. There is nothing wrong with making ships have flavor or giving the cookie cutter min/max'er an isk sink.
In effect the rigs don't do anything more than add up to 3 free modules to your setup. If you think they can't balance with rigs, then you might as well think they can't balance modules too. They are pretty much the same thing.
The risk of loosing your rigs because of their prices will justify their viability.
Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats
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Sumayyah
Minmatar Dynamic Endeavors
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Posted - 2006.11.30 15:43:00 -
[42]
First you have to get someone to find the materials to build the rigs. And since missions arn;t producing crap for rigs you might be waiting a long while... I'm an ! I will always be an ! that is all I have to say |
JeanPierre
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Posted - 2006.11.30 15:44:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Kaylana Syi
Originally by: Imhotep Khem The game is becoming too complicated. It was hard enough to balance the ships as they were. This is a sad day as I do not expect CCP to recover from this one. Rigs do not add anything to the gameplay tbh. I think they will make folks eventually have multiple ships for different purposes. Its just not worth it. Kind of depressing.
I think your assumption is wrong. First of all, rigs are going to cost upwards of 100mil isk for 1 and that is for a less desirable one. There is nothing wrong with making ships have flavor or giving the cookie cutter min/max'er an isk sink.
In effect the rigs don't do anything more than add up to 3 free modules to your setup. If you think they can't balance with rigs, then you might as well think they can't balance modules too. They are pretty much the same thing.
The risk of loosing your rigs because of their prices will justify their viability.
100M or more each?
I may be missing something, but how much "stuff" do you get from a wreck, salvage wise, when it has something to get (quantity and quality wise)?
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Loka
Gallente adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.30 16:06:00 -
[44]
Well i read on different boards, that you get 1-2 parts out of each wrack. You need around 100 parts for one Rig.
So around 50 kills, if you get all parts without missing one. I would say between 5 and 20mil for each Rig, depending on popularity.
The BPO¦s are cheap, but you still need the parts, which only drops when NPC hunting.
And they will only drop if you have fitted a slavaging module and have the proper skills. We will see. _________________________ Noob In Action - [NIA]
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Saria Mysdrial
Amarr Daedalus Technologies
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Posted - 2006.11.30 16:09:00 -
[45]
For people talking about static bonuses for rigs (ie, -15 seconds, +10 grid)...these all appear to be labeling errors, as the +10 grid definitely gives +10% grid, and the -15 shield recharge is clearly -15%.
Would be nice to have some labeling consistency, though.
Sad, but true. |
JeanPierre
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Posted - 2006.11.30 16:38:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Loka Well i read on different boards, that you get 1-2 parts out of each wrack. You need around 100 parts for one Rig.
So around 50 kills, if you get all parts without missing one. I would say between 5 and 20mil for each Rig, depending on popularity.
The BPO¦s are cheap, but you still need the parts, which only drops when NPC hunting.
And they will only drop if you have fitted a slavaging module and have the proper skills. We will see.
Thanks for the information, that helps.
This is shaping up to be a near dream for me actually. Every other content release I'm normally twiddling my thumbs saying "oh, well, whatever" to most of the stuff. Rigs/salvaging seem to be coming out pre-built to my role and skills (and I don't plan on searching Missions for the heaps, seems pointless). Money may actually be made. Me likes.
Well, hopefully anyway, lol.
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Beef Hardslab
AlphaHivE
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Posted - 2006.11.30 16:54:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Saria Mysdrial For people talking about static bonuses for rigs (ie, -15 seconds, +10 grid)...these all appear to be labeling errors, as the +10 grid definitely gives +10% grid, and the -15 shield recharge is clearly -15%.
Would be nice to have some labeling consistency, though.
Really? ****, I had hoped that +10 PG rig was legit. I could make one helluva Kestrel with just one +10 PG rig.
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Loka
Gallente adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.30 16:59:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Beef Hardslab
Really? ****, I had hoped that +10 PG rig was legit. I could make one helluva Kestrel with just one +10 PG rig.
Iam sure you will see Rigs only on BS and bigger or T2 ships. _________________________ Noob In Action - [NIA]
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El Yatta
Mercenary Forces Exquisite Malevolance
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Posted - 2006.11.30 17:01:00 -
[49]
Originally by: JeanPierre
Originally by: Loka Well i read on different boards, that you get 1-2 parts out of each wrack. You need around 100 parts for one Rig.
So around 50 kills, if you get all parts without missing one. I would say between 5 and 20mil for each Rig, depending on popularity.
The BPO¦s are cheap, but you still need the parts, which only drops when NPC hunting.
And they will only drop if you have fitted a slavaging module and have the proper skills. We will see.
Thanks for the information, that helps.
This is shaping up to be a near dream for me actually. Every other content release I'm normally twiddling my thumbs saying "oh, well, whatever" to most of the stuff. Rigs/salvaging seem to be coming out pre-built to my role and skills (and I don't plan on searching Missions for the heaps, seems pointless). Money may actually be made. Me likes.
Well, hopefully anyway, lol.
Dont thank him, its not accurate information. Its crap, in fact. For example, its more like 300-500 components to build a rig (minus your PE skill), and if you kill something worth killing (i.e. not useless NPCs or pointless mission rats), like, T2 player ships, you get more than 1-2 components per time, and rarer and more interesting ones. His line that they only drop from NPCs is almost the exact opposite of the intention and implementation of salvage. As for his estimation on rig cost... well, we shall see, we shall see. Frankly I dont beleive that it is predictable at the moment until rig production starts up on a reasonable scale across the galaxy.
Its also worth noting that most of the people who ***** about rigs and salvaging and salvaged components are the mission runners, the scum of eve. They see it as flawed that it isnt implemented to line their pockets even easier (when they already have the dullest and easiest part of the game that still has any money in it). All they are there for is to supply a steady stream of the crap salvage low-ends, while combat players acquire good amounts of mid-end and the only good high-end components, required for he better and the t2 rigs. Im really glad that it will take 3 hours to fully salvage a big level 4 mission, or similar, maybe it will get through to most mission runners that its not there to provide them with huge amounts of easy income.
Hint: want to keep up your missions/hour rate? Loot as normal [rig icons will be changed in tuesdays patch so you can tell when they are empty], and then SELL the location of the wrecks to a salvager. If people see value in the components then specialist salvagers will setup in mission running areas to glean huge amounts of the components.
If you want to get the salvage components yourself, feel free to salvage your own mission wrecks. Its a fantastic game mechanic and makes salvaging a true mini-profession.
---||---
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Beef Hardslab
AlphaHivE
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Posted - 2006.11.30 17:06:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Loka Iam sure you will see Rigs only on BS and bigger or T2 ships.
I'll put rigs on frigs... LOL sounds like a good corp name. Why not? I kill enough rats already to supply the necessary materials, and the BPOs are cheap.
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LukaG
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Posted - 2006.11.30 17:07:00 -
[51]
Can someone please explain to me what the disadvantage is to a BS of having its sig radius increased by the shield rigs? I mean from what I understand once your weapon sig is the same as the ship sig your doing the maximum amount of dmg possible, increasing the sig further, with a TP for instance, doesn't mean more dmg.
Can someone confirm or disprove this for me?
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Loka
Gallente adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.11.30 17:21:00 -
[52]
once you are big like a moon, a dread will eat you allive, Javline Torps will feel real pain, lot of wreckings will be your nightmare. Also the targetspeed is affected by Signature Radius of your ship. The bigger, the faster other will lock you.
Also, i doubt we will see lot of salvaging from PvP ships. Sure if you have an alt, but think about it. One less highslot can be the reason your wrack has been salvaged, instead of you salvaging someone else. _________________________ Noob In Action - [NIA]
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JeanPierre
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Posted - 2006.11.30 17:23:00 -
[53]
Originally by: El Yatta
Originally by: JeanPierre
Originally by: Loka Well i read on different boards, that you get 1-2 parts out of each wrack. You need around 100 parts for one Rig.
So around 50 kills, if you get all parts without missing one. I would say between 5 and 20mil for each Rig, depending on popularity.
The BPO¦s are cheap, but you still need the parts, which only drops when NPC hunting.
And they will only drop if you have fitted a slavaging module and have the proper skills. We will see.
Thanks for the information, that helps.
This is shaping up to be a near dream for me actually. Every other content release I'm normally twiddling my thumbs saying "oh, well, whatever" to most of the stuff. Rigs/salvaging seem to be coming out pre-built to my role and skills (and I don't plan on searching Missions for the heaps, seems pointless). Money may actually be made. Me likes.
Well, hopefully anyway, lol.
Dont thank him, its not accurate information. Its crap, in fact. For example, its more like 300-500 components to build a rig (minus your PE skill), and if you kill something worth killing (i.e. not useless NPCs or pointless mission rats), like, T2 player ships, you get more than 1-2 components per time, and rarer and more interesting ones. His line that they only drop from NPCs is almost the exact opposite of the intention and implementation of salvage. As for his estimation on rig cost... well, we shall see, we shall see. Frankly I dont beleive that it is predictable at the moment until rig production starts up on a reasonable scale across the galaxy.
Its also worth noting that most of the people who ***** about rigs and salvaging and salvaged components are the mission runners, the scum of eve. They see it as flawed that it isnt implemented to line their pockets even easier (when they already have the dullest and easiest part of the game that still has any money in it). All they are there for is to supply a steady stream of the crap salvage low-ends, while combat players acquire good amounts of mid-end and the only good high-end components, required for he better and the t2 rigs. Im really glad that it will take 3 hours to fully salvage a big level 4 mission, or similar, maybe it will get through to most mission runners that its not there to provide them with huge amounts of easy income.
Hint: want to keep up your missions/hour rate? Loot as normal [rig icons will be changed in tuesdays patch so you can tell when they are empty], and then SELL the location of the wrecks to a salvager. If people see value in the components then specialist salvagers will setup in mission running areas to glean huge amounts of the components.
If you want to get the salvage components yourself, feel free to salvage your own mission wrecks. Its a fantastic game mechanic and makes salvaging a true mini-profession.
Thanks for the info...info.
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Ithildin
Gallente The Corporation The Corporation Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.30 17:32:00 -
[54]
Edited by: Ithildin on 30/11/2006 17:41:53 There's very little relation between hit-chance and wrecking.
The only real extra threat to a ship with a larger sig radius is Rage torps and citadel torps. Generally, battlecruisers and larger aren't really penalized too much from enlarged signature radii.
Or, if you will, +50% sig radius on a cruiser is deadly, +100% on a battleship is a minor nuisance most of the time.
(Oh, and this is an exagregation, so don't do anything stupid like run numbers on it, OK?) - EVE is sick. |
Dave Tehsulei
0utbreak
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Posted - 2006.11.30 17:36:00 -
[55]
Edited by: Dave Tehsulei on 30/11/2006 17:38:32
Originally by: JeanPierre
Originally by: Dave Tehsulei Edited by: Dave Tehsulei on 30/11/2006 02:12:05
Just about all the rigs need looking at,
tanking and fitting rigs were boosted just before kali went live and had very little play testing
So...
If all rigs need "looking at", meaning they're all theoretically overpowered, doesn't that mean that the use of them by everybody, will balance out the overpower? As such, that means rigging becomes just what it was intended, further ship customization.
Seems that way to me.
I wonder if some people, having won their state lottery, would complain because the check of their first payment was not the color of green that they like?
First you're assuming that rigs will be widely available and not just for the rich or super rich. Second as i already said the rigs bonus' were changed very recently, passive res rigs were boosted to 30% from 10, damage rig calibration points were doubled for example.
I dont believe they were tested sufficiently to say they are well balanced, just compare tanking rigs to damage rigs, 10% bonus to rof OR damage modifier for a 200 calibration point use, where as you can have two 15% armor rep amount rigs using 100 points each.
The power grid rigs are another example you can fit as many of these as calibration points allow, with no penalty at all ! How do battlecruisers with heavy nos, a full rack of their highest tier guns and a tank sound?
If eventually everyone is able to afford rigs and benefit fine, the difference in combat abilities of a ship with and a ship without rigs wont matter so much. IÆve seen the setups on sisi already there are combinations of rigs that make certain setups and ships unbeatable.
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Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
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Posted - 2006.11.30 17:38:00 -
[56]
Edited by: Tsanse Kinske on 30/11/2006 17:39:05
Originally by: LukaG Can someone please explain to me what the disadvantage is to a BS of having its sig radius increased by the shield rigs? I mean from what I understand once your weapon sig is the same as the ship sig your doing the maximum amount of dmg possible, increasing the sig further, with a TP for instance, doesn't mean more dmg.
Can someone confirm or disprove this for me?
It does equate to a boost to the opponent's tracking. How often that's an important factor at the BS level, I don't know.
It also means decreased lock time for your opponents and a decreased time and increased accuracy to probe you out. Those are probably minor issues most of the time though. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams, writing about EVE |
Magnus Card
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.30 17:51:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Akita T First off, how do I define "overpowered" ? My definition is (so far) "not worth fitting anything else instead". The (very short) list of those rigs only spans a short list of modules so far (feel free to add some).
1. Capacitor Control Circuit (Tech 1 gives -15% cap recharge time with no drawbacks)
i was looking at the attributes on that. It says -15 not -15%. Which makes me think its -15 sec and not % based.
<---- mods please fix the pic |
JeanPierre
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Posted - 2006.11.30 17:58:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Dave Tehsulei Edited by: Dave Tehsulei on 30/11/2006 17:38:32
Originally by: JeanPierre
Originally by: Dave Tehsulei Edited by: Dave Tehsulei on 30/11/2006 02:12:05
Just about all the rigs need looking at,
tanking and fitting rigs were boosted just before kali went live and had very little play testing
So...
If all rigs need "looking at", meaning they're all theoretically overpowered, doesn't that mean that the use of them by everybody, will balance out the overpower? As such, that means rigging becomes just what it was intended, further ship customization.
Seems that way to me.
I wonder if some people, having won their state lottery, would complain because the check of their first payment was not the color of green that they like?
First you're assuming that rigs will be widely available and not just for the rich or super rich. Second as i already said the rigs bonus' were changed very recently, passive res rigs were boosted to 30% from 10, damage rig calibration points were doubled for example.
I dont believe they were tested sufficiently to say they are well balanced, just compare tanking rigs to damage rigs, 10% bonus to rof OR damage modifier for a 200 calibration point use, where as you can have two 15% armor rep amount rigs using 100 points each.
The power grid rigs are another example you can fit as many of these as calibration points allow, with no penalty at all ! How do battlecruisers with heavy nos, a full rack of their highest tier guns and a tank sound?
If eventually everyone is able to afford rigs and benefit fine, the difference in combat abilities of a ship with and a ship without rigs wont matter so much. IÆve seen the setups on sisi already there are combinations of rigs that make certain setups and ships unbeatable.
I think it will balance out. Some may require tweaking. And everything on EVE has always been for the rich and super rich the first few months after introduction of a new concept. God, how much were Miner II's when they first came out, for example? Through the roof. Strip Miner II's as well, nearly 100M or more for 3 of them, now they're affordable for all dedicated miners in a decent amount of time.
If anything, from what I've seen on this thread, the one "fix" CCP could make to make sure that prices don't skyrocket, and rigs make a fair distribution to most who want them, they could simply increase the chance and drop rate of salvageable components from wrecks, or lower the rig building requirements. Given that, once we all have rigs, then I'd be open to looking at balancing issues. Why? Because almost all "balance" issues are really "I just don't want to find a way to counter it, nerf it please" if MMORPG's, including EVE, playbase complaints are taken to their root.
I'm open to possibilities, and think you make some good points. Let's see what a bit of time will bring.
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JeanPierre
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Posted - 2006.11.30 18:19:00 -
[59]
Originally by: WrathchildeVOTF
Originally by: Magnus Card
Originally by: Akita T First off, how do I define "overpowered" ? My definition is (so far) "not worth fitting anything else instead". The (very short) list of those rigs only spans a short list of modules so far (feel free to add some).
1. Capacitor Control Circuit (Tech 1 gives -15% cap recharge time with no drawbacks)
i was looking at the attributes on that. It says -15 not -15%. Which makes me think its -15 sec and not % based.
However, when fit in-game, they sure do seem to do 15%, unnerfed by stacking.
As shown above, in this thread.
Maybe.
That might open up Amarrs to actual EW warfare experience, as in giving instead of receiving. That would be cool.
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Epidemis
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Posted - 2006.11.30 18:29:00 -
[60]
Probably introduces to alleviate the Amarr whining :)
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JeanPierre
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Posted - 2006.11.30 19:16:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Epidemis Probably introduces to alleviate the Amarr whining :)
Well, they are a race that lives and dies by the capacitor.
Fire up a capacitor you get from radio shack. What's it do? You got it, it whines.
I rest my case.
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Berrik Radhok
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2006.11.30 19:29:00 -
[62]
I wonder if I could run a perma-triple LAR II tank on my Dominix using cap recharge rigs and cap recharger IIs.
Hello afk L4s :D
Originally by: Khavi Vetali
Oh don't worry, the goons are just as suicidal with their battleships as they are with their frigates.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2006.11.30 19:33:00 -
[63]
Not maybe, certainly. Capacitor Control Circuit I == Cap Recharger I Capacitor Control Circuit II == Cap Recharger II There is no single shread of doubt about that, next person that even hints about it "maybe" being otherwise gets ho'slapped with a frozen Ferox.
Now, can we get on with it and "compute" a bit of passive-vs-active shieldtanking on some ships (with CCCs and other shield rigs vs pure Purger rigs)? Thank you.
____
We won't be doing Ferox because Drake is clearly better, and we won't be doing Hurricane because it doesn't have a shield boost bonus. The question was wether a passive shield tank can be better as any other alternative for an active shield tank. Drake should clearly be better as a passive tanker, while the Cyclone might be better as an active tanker (even if I somewhat doubt it).
SHIPS TO BE ANALYZED : Drake and Cyclone We'll be using first T1 rigs and T2 modules only, then *maybe* later we'll do a full "maxed out" analysis with "the best money could buy some time in the future" (i.e. T2 rigs and faction/officer mods). We assume maxed-out skill characters but no implants, especially since crystal set is slated for changes that will eliminate the active boosting bonuses. And we'll also do a PURE TANKING comparison... that is, no damage boosts whatsoever, maximized tanking capabilities only.
THE CYCLONE : ACTIVE TANK VS PASSIVE TANK
Base 2187 cap (2733.75 skill), recharge in 583.33 sec (437.4975 skill) Max recharge rate 15.62 per second without modules nor rigs.
Shield 4395 (5493.75 skill), recharge in 1250 sec (937.5 skill) Max (base) shield recharge rate 14.65 per second without modules nor rigs.
Large Shield Extender II : 2625 HP, 3281.25 with SM-L5 Each adds 8.75 shield per second (base) max recharge rate (no other modules and rigs).
Large Shield Booster II : 240 HP every 4 sec for 160 cap With L5 BC and L5 shield comp: 330 shield every 4 sec for 144 cap (per second, +82.5 HP for -36 cap) Add a SBAmpII and you get +112.2sh for -36 cap
Passive T2 resists with corresponding compensation skills at L5 are -46.875% at no cap cost. T2 active resists are -55% for -2 cap per second, irrelevant compensation skills.
4x SPR IIs result in *2.9974 shield recharge rate and *3.3215 cap recharge time In other words, 15.62/3.3215 = 4.7 cap/sec max recharge rate. You must either use one passive and two active resists, or switch a few SPRs for PDUs. Personally, I'd favor the 3 passive resists setups (in spite of lower resists) for the sheer "NOS immunity" it will provide you with. The rest of the midslots get filled with LSE2s, of course. PASSIVE max shield recharge: (14.65+8.75*2)*2.9974 = 96.36641 shield/sec (NO RIGS)
Add to that 3x CDFPs with /0.8 recharge rate each and you get 188.215 shield/sec max recharge rate. That, with 2 active and 1 passive shield hardners "running forever".
On to the active setup. You use 4x PDS2s this time. Each is (combined) +14.754 shield and cap recharge rate (final), end result +73.409% both. So we get aprox 27.08 cap/sec and 25.4 shield/sec so far. We want to run 3 active resists, so that's at least 6 cap/second, also we want to perma-run the booster (36 cap/sec), so we need at least 42 cap/sec recharge (or in other words +55% cap recharge rate).
You could argue you can add a "cap use reduction" rig for the booster instead of any cap recharger rigs, but all you'd get would be a 3.6 cap/sec reduction (a mere 8.5% cap usage reduction factoring in resists usage too), while adding a cap recharger rig gives +17.6% recharge rate (-15% recharge time), net superior results.
So, the conclusion, we use 3x CCCIs here too. We get 25.4 + 112.2 = 137.6 shield/second max recharge rate (all modules considered) and we use up 42 out of 44.09 max possible cap recharge per second.
So raw recharge is 36% better in passive setup (188 vs 137), with ONE of 3 resists passive instead of active. _____ -sig-
This is my only char. These are my skills
Always question everything, including yourself |
LVSOCOM
Minmatar The Rat Pack
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Posted - 2006.11.30 19:34:00 -
[64]
Edited by: LVSOCOM on 30/11/2006 19:34:30 2x Shield Boost Amount Riggings (t2 preferrably) Crystal Set (even LG) Gist X-Type Booster DG Shield Boost Amp on a Sleiphnir
Insanity.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2006.11.30 19:43:00 -
[65]
Crystal Set gets changed from boost amount sometime soon™. So in other words, on BC-sized ships (except Amarr ones), passive shield tanking is the way to go (yes, on all except Amarr). Let me get back to you with some Vulture/Drake passive tank setups (will edit this post). _____ -sig-
This is my only char. These are my skills
Always question everything, including yourself |
Blind Man
Caldari Kemono.
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Posted - 2006.11.30 20:04:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Jim McGregor People will get slaughtered out there to setups people will keep a secret. And even when they do manage to take the rigged ship down, the rigs are not on the kill mails and will remain a secret.
Sig removed.\o/ It's great flying Amarr, ain't it? |
LVSOCOM
Minmatar The Rat Pack
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Posted - 2006.11.30 21:02:00 -
[67]
Edited by: LVSOCOM on 30/11/2006 21:03:32
Originally by: Akita T Crystal Set gets changed from boost amount sometime soonÖ. So in other words, on BC-sized ships (except Amarr ones), passive shield tanking is the way to go (yes, on all except Amarr). Let me get back to you with some Vulture/Drake passive tank setups (will edit this post).
That is interesting... And good.
Pre-riggings I was in favor of boosting slaves to mirrior the Crystal set bonus. However, riggings have provided the ability for certain ships to field tanks which are able to repair amounts of DPS not attainable in any 1vs1 situations. The Crystal set just exasperated the problem...
I really want to see more discussion about the Slave vs. Crystal sets, but I'll avoid detouring from the original topic. :]
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2006.11.30 22:12:00 -
[68]
For not-so-obvious reasons (call it "disposability" if nothing else), I'll keep only using T1/T2 modules and rigs for calculations, no officer nor faction/deadspace stuff.
Will do a "Drake fleet with Vulture command" scenario. You'll need some tacklers too, sure, but that's another thing. General Drakes setup will be a 100% NOS-immune, no-activation (except the weapons) passive shieldtank setup. Drakes will be fitted with Heavy Missiles, because HAMs would be a bit too insane considering the fact you have no speed mods whatsoever (even with those ****ed javelins). For added insult to injury, ALL Drakes could be using FoF missiles in case they face a ECM fleet. Heh.
You can just increase the DPS tanked on the Drakes by a flat +15% if you have a siege warfare specialist with siege mindlink in your gang giving out the bonus, and the bonuses you get from shield harmonising link run by same gangmate into a maxed-skill Vulture might further increase the DPS tanked by another +30% (cummulative, for a total of +49.5%), because I will be using one of each passive hardner type and nothing else for hardening on the Drakes.
WE ASSUME all Drake pilots have all L5 in the 4 shield compensations and have L5 shield op and shield management, also have the 5% shield max and shield recharge hardwirings.
The FULL passive tank of a T2-fitted Drake (SOLO figures, for ganged condition see above)
RIGS: 2xT2 purger, 1xT1 purger LOWS: 4x SPR IIs MIDS: 2x T2 LSE, 1x each T2 passive hardner (basically -46.875% to all resists) HIGHS: whatever launchers you can fit
Capacitor is a NON-ISSUE here, as there is not even a SINGLE piece of equipment that uses capacitor.
Shield amount: (5469 base + 2x 2625 LSE2s) * 1.25 manag * 1.05 implant = 14068.6875 shield HP
Shield recharge: 1250 base * 0.75 sh.op * 0.95 implant * 0.75 * 0.75 T2 purgers * 0.8 T1 purger * 0.76^4 SPR2s = 133.709346 seconds
MAX shield recharge/sec 2.5 * 14068.6875 / 133.709346 = 263 shield/second
RESISTS 0/60/40/20 base 25/70/55/40 with battlecruiser L5 60.156/84.062/76.093/68.125 with passive resists
MAX DPS TANKED 660/1650/1100/825 (swap out EXP and fit 2nd EM : 1113/876/1100/825)
Now, factor in the "stuff" mentioned above and you get (for the gang "lead" by the Vulture pilot) the following whooping max DPS tanked: 990/2470/1640/1230
On the Drakes, with Vulture ASSUMED to give 27.5% resist (yes, I considered the stacking nerf you get applied to each resist), swapping out the EXP hardner for a 2nd EM hardner gives you 1321/1209/1445/1084 max DPS tanked (NO CAP USED)
Not bad for a "fleet" of ships that should cost next to nothing to fit (compared to other "fleet ships"). And I can assure you, the Vulture's tank will be even sicker, by a huge factor. _____ -sig-
This is my only char. These are my skills
Always question everything, including yourself |
Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
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Posted - 2006.11.30 23:02:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Laboratus
Originally by: Loka
Well than its not ingame. I just fitted 3 Rigs of same type, look at the picture.
Kewl. Triple drone damage mods, here I come!
You know those get stacking penalties right?
BVetter DPS to use 3 dmg mods than 3 dmg/rof rigs imo.
Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
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Posted - 2006.11.30 23:12:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Berrik Radhok I wonder if I could run a perma-triple LAR II tank on my Dominix using cap recharge rigs and cap recharger IIs.
Hello afk L4s :D
Nighthawk?
Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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Manus Ghostface
Caldari Quantum Industries Prime Orbital Systems
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Posted - 2006.11.30 23:33:00 -
[71]
Originally by: El Yatta
Hint: want to keep up your missions/hour rate? Loot as normal [rig icons will be changed in tuesdays patch so you can tell when they are empty], and then SELL the location of the wrecks to a salvager. If people see value in the components then specialist salvagers will setup in mission running areas to glean huge amounts of the components.
If you want to get the salvage components yourself, feel free to salvage your own mission wrecks. Its a fantastic game mechanic and makes salvaging a true mini-profession.
Totally agree, this man speaks the truth and bluntly to the point. Once they make the icon changes, if you don't want to salvage the wrecks, then don't.
That city is well fortified which has a wall of men instead of brick. - Lycurgus |
Neckbone
Minmatar Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2006.12.01 00:24:00 -
[72]
Were SPR II's added and nobody told me? I keep seeing these used in calcs, but I don't see any ever sold... ever... in the Market.
Anyway, I was just farting around at work, and this was something I thought about:
Hurricane w/ 4297 shields, 1250 recharge
4x Large Extender II (2625 each) 6x SPR I 3x T2 Recharge Rig
14797 * 1.25 * 1.05 = 19421 shieldHP 1250 * 0.8^6 * 0.75^4 * 0.95 = 98 sec recharge 19421 / 98 * 2.5 = 495 peak passive shield/sec?
Heh.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2006.12.01 02:18:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Neckbone Were SPR II's added and nobody told me? I keep seeing these used in calcs, but I don't see any ever sold... ever... in the Market.
Hurricane w/ 4297 shields, 1250 recharge 4x Large Extender II (2625 each) 6x SPR I 3x T2 Recharge Rig 14797 * 1.25 * 1.05 = 19421 shieldHP 1250 * 0.8^6 * 0.75^4 * 0.95 = 98 sec recharge 19421 / 98 * 2.5 = 495 peak passive shield/sec?
With Kali came invention, and with invention you can now create (at a very high cost I might add) limited run blueprints (T2 BPCs), including modules that were previously unavailable, like the SPR II. The fact nobody sells any on the market is due to the fact nobody invented enough (or any) of them yet, at least not enough to put them on the market. Might want to check contracts in several regions, you never know, you might find one sooner or later.
Well, your calculations were almost correct... I mean, the calculations themselves were right on the spot, but the fitting was impossible. You can only fit 2 T2 recharge rigs and a T1 recharge rig (not enough calibration for 3 T2s). But as said before, you could fit SPR IIs as soon as they come out, so the actual peak recharge is even higher.
Still, that's without resists, and for each "sacrificed" extender for a resist, you lose some of that peak recharge. And anyway, you might want to fit passive resist mods, as any actives would soon run out of cap due to the huge SPR count.
If you factor everything out, you'll see that the max DPS tanked ain't that good, even if the actual HP recharge looks insane. _____ -sig-
This is my only char. These are my skills
Always question everything, including yourself |
Baun
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.12.01 03:26:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Akita T
With Kali came invention, and with invention you can now create (at a very high cost I might add) limited run blueprints (T2 BPCs), including modules that were previously unavailable, like the SPR II.
I belive that the devs said that items for which there are no T2 BPOs are not invetable until the BPOs are seeded.
I could be wrong, but that seems to make sense in any case.
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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dot me
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Posted - 2006.12.01 08:43:00 -
[75]
Edited by: dot me on 01/12/2006 08:44:04
Originally by: Loka Edited by: Loka on 30/11/2006 15:14:18
Originally by: Saladin Edited by: Saladin on 30/11/2006 15:02:35 I wish people would read the info correctly. Its not a -15% to recharge time, its -15 seconds. Meaning its only useful for small ships. This is the same problem as the rig that adds 10MW and everyone things its 10% PG boost. There is one that boosts capacitor energy by 15% and in that case it explicity shows the % symbol.
Check the info for all the rigs, where the bonus is a percentatge it does show a % symbol, where it is a simple fixed bonus there is no % symbol. The devil is in the details. They may be bugged on SiSi now but I am sure it will be sorted out on TQ
For you here again two quotes of myself, which proves the oposite, not by just saying it, but through USING them ingame 2h ago.
Originally by: "Loka" just tried to fit 3 of the cap recharge rigs (T1) on a rokh. The rokh was complete empty, besides the Rigslots i fit in one after the other.
The outcome: Base 9000 cap 1125 sec rechargetime 1 Rig: 9000 - 956 sec (17,6%) 2 Rig¦s: 9000 - 812 sec (17,7%) 3 Rig¦s: 9000 - 690 sec (17,7%)
so yes it is possible to fit 3 of same category on your ship. And as you see, they dont have any stacking penalty on them.
This was tested on an EMPTY Rokh. The numbers have been taken after installing one Rig after another. From 1125 sec to 690 sec looks like the flat 60% already said before. If it would have been 3x 15sec the outcome must had been 1125 - 45 sec = 1080sec right?
Originally by: "Loka" Well than its not ingame. I just fitted 3 Rigs of same type, look at the picture.
Here a screenshot made by me ingame of a fitted Rokh with 3x Cap Rigs installed.
Pls dont insult others, if you just think you are right.
OK. not insulting you or anything. but is that "ingame" on the test server? because the way i heard is you need like 300 comonents for a rig. you claimed to have instaled 3 of them. and people are screaming how "easy" it is to salvage components and how "many" they have got so far. so i'm a bit curious as how you managed to get your hands on 3 already build rigs if you don't mind me asking.
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Kldraina
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Posted - 2006.12.01 11:10:00 -
[76]
I just tried to invent a Shield Flux Coil II (using a copy of the T1 one) and it told me I couldn't. I'm inclined to guess, this is because the T2 version is not listed under the varients tab. Since the Shield Power Relay also doesn't have the T2 version under the varients tab, I'm expecting I won't be able to invent it either, I'll know tomorrow when I try.
The listed reason for failure, was that either the BPC metalevel was too high (it was just a T1 BPC, so not likely) or that no higher level version was available.
And I was so hoping for T2 flux coils, and power relays too. :( |
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