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Copine Callmeknau
The Splinter Syndicate SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2006.12.01 03:54:00 -
[1]
Discovered something today.
Because T2 ships didn't receive as much of a HP boost as T1 ships and the BC's received a large HP boost compared to other ships. Tech 1 Tier 1 BC's now have more HP than Command ships. Go ahead and check for yourself, then check the HP difference pre-kali and you'll see how much of a nerf this is.
After discovering this I checked other T2 ships, Destroyers now have more HP than Interdicters.
Something seems fundamentally wrong with this, this these 2 ship class the only ones in the game where the T1 version has a HP advantage over the T2 version.
I hope this is an oversight on CCP's part, and not a stealth nerf to Command Ships/Interdictors.
Considering the skill times involved in training these ships, we'd like some sort of HP advantage over ships of 1/10'th the cost. (1/30'th the cost in the case of the sabre)
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Originally by: RUNYOUFOOLS wrong on so many levels you could only be more wrong if you where tuxford.
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Xendie
Forsaken Empire
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Posted - 2006.12.01 04:00:00 -
[2]
its the logic of tuxfords balancing. only he can understand it.
Quote: Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?
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mallina
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.12.01 04:16:00 -
[3]
i would have thought the t2 versions would have recieved a boost seeing that the t1 ones got such a large boost, but seems not
cruisers, HACs and CS got hit quite bad altogether, the tier 2 bcs being almost as powerful as battleships ----------- Turbulance |
Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
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Posted - 2006.12.01 04:18:00 -
[4]
Yeah, I didn't quite understand the logic behind this, granted CBCs are better than BCs hands down, but the lesser HP does seem to make little sense.
Make T2 ships have atleast 5% more hull/armor/shields than the t1 model?
Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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Captain Raynor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.12.01 04:21:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Xendie its the logic of tuxfords balancing. only he can understand it.
hahahaha... ok well I do think it's messed up that a Drake has more HP than a Nighthawk.. haven't looked at the others.
Quote:
Daniel Jackson > a harbinger cant be a raven cause its not caldari Daniel Jackson > and its not a missle ship Jim Raynor > thank you for that expert analysis DJ
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CherniyVolk
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Posted - 2006.12.01 04:25:00 -
[6]
Edited by: CherniyVolk on 01/12/2006 04:25:56
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=434779
My post linked above is along the same lines I think. Kali is jacked up. :(
Tuxford, as your biggest Deimos zealot (pun intended)... T2 ships, from AFs to CSs have been nerfed so badly it's unbelievable. Please... something should be done, it takes a long time to properly fly just a HAC, and such a nerf really hurts the people who have demonstrated prolonged interest in this game.
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Siakel
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Posted - 2006.12.01 05:05:00 -
[7]
Tux seems to have done a pretty sloppy job with BCs and Destroyers.
Along with T1 ships having more HP, the BCs at least(Haven't checked Destroyers) got a 56% boost to shield HP, and a... 25% increase in shield recharge time? Because we needed more powerful passive tanks, apparently.
Then Rigs, Callibration, and Rig slots, that could've been used to help balance ships by changing the number of rigslots, callibration, etc around on a per-ship, or even per-size or per-techlevel basis... but no. Let's just give every T1 and T2 ship in EVE 400 Callibration, every Faction ship 350 Callibration (They're not supposed to be good anyway, I guess), and T1 ships from Punisher to Avatar 3 rig slots, while all T2 ships get two rig slots. So much for 'less slots, but more callibration' eh? Another area where T2 got shafted.
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Kldraina
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Posted - 2006.12.01 10:42:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Kldraina on 01/12/2006 10:44:41
Originally by: Xendie its the logic of tuxfords balancing. only he can understand it.
I believe I understand it perfectly, but I can't claim to be normal, and I might be a bit delusional.
Personally, I like the fact that T1 and T2 are getting leveled out a bit more. Helps make up for the increased prevalance of T2 on TQ. It also makes room for a new Tech level to become the OMG powerful rare sight. |
MrLobster
Cosmic Odyssey Chorus of Dawn
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Posted - 2006.12.01 10:49:00 -
[9]
It may even bring down the prices of the HACS/CBC, if people start using T1 more :) ______
Better? - MrLobster |
Lil Belle
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Posted - 2006.12.01 10:50:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Lil Belle on 01/12/2006 10:50:47 I guess they forgot the part where T2 is supposed to be better than T1. Same goes for faction ships being better, not just a friggin variation thats crapper.
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Zar Dim
Minmatar Anus Horriblis
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Posted - 2006.12.01 11:02:00 -
[11]
Yes, BC and CS balancing has been strange after Revelations.
Overall ship balancing is strange for example i don't know why anyone will use AFs now... Honestly. You just fit T1 cruiser and do whatever you want.
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Zooish
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Posted - 2006.12.01 11:08:00 -
[12]
Tuxford must have smoked an 8th after the changes to the BC over the CS ..
Its laughable that the T1 versions have more HP than the T2 version ..
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sopmac1
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Posted - 2006.12.01 11:22:00 -
[13]
What shame it is to have wasted so much time and isk on a command ship. When a T1 BC is just as good now. I just don't get it.
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Adrian Kerensky
Caldari STK Scientific Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.12.01 11:26:00 -
[14]
This character has been specifically specialised in HACs and CMCs and I just feel like I've been kicked in the nuts tbh.
Originally by: Ebedar Hyperion setup that put out about 1500 DPS, yet it still lost to a ridiculously well well tanked BC.
Wrong?
Latest Vid: Curses to all |
Helpdesk
Caldari The Patriot Pact
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Posted - 2006.12.01 11:45:00 -
[15]
Originally by: MrLobster It may even bring down the prices of the HACS/CBC, if people start using T1 more :)
Yeah great, simply because some people can't afford HACs/CBCs they should make them suck so hard so nobody wants to fly them. Makes perfect sense... perhaps there's a company in Iceland that could use people with ideas like yours.
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YOYO MAMA
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Posted - 2006.12.01 12:14:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Helpdesk
Originally by: MrLobster It may even bring down the prices of the HACS/CBC, if people start using T1 more :)
Yeah great, simply because some people can't afford HACs/CBCs they should make them suck so hard so nobody wants to fly them. Makes perfect sense... perhaps there's a company in Iceland that could use people with ideas like yours.
if you would stop comparing ships effectiveness in relation to market prices, everything would be in a much brighter view. nowadays, HACs effieciency doesn't justify the market prices anymore. and that is great. the tier2 BC give everyone a low-budget alternative to the HACs
the T2 counterparts (the HACs especially) got nerfed dmg/tank to cap wise, but they were never intended to pwn ships +2 shipclasses higher than their T1 counterparts. while benefiting from the pros of a lower shipclass (agility, speed), they are still capable to take out ships a class higher than their own class. (HAC > BC ; CBC > BS).
the biggest issue small ships have since revelation is their CAP. even before Revelations, i never saw a problem in killing a HAC or two, just by attacking their CAP (NEUTs and a large CAP injector 4tw). it has become easier now, as i have more time (due to more HP), to run more cycles on my NOSes/NEUTs.
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Bad Borris
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Posted - 2006.12.01 12:24:00 -
[17]
I am nearing HAC and have been envious as hell of you guys flying around in them. But if what you are saying is true and hacs and command ships are now not good value for isk then I am very annoyed. Surely the whole point of tech II ships is that they superior to tech I ? Tech II ships are something to go for and you must be patient to get in one. So what is the point now? Having said that i was in favour of boosting the bc since it is an underused ship imo. But the situation with command ships having less hp than bc's is downright ludicrous. But i guess time will tell whether this discrepancy actually leads to command ships being taken down by there tech I variations.... Somehow i doubt it.
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Helpdesk
Caldari The Patriot Pact
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Posted - 2006.12.01 12:33:00 -
[18]
Originally by: YOYO MAMA
Originally by: Helpdesk
Originally by: MrLobster It may even bring down the prices of the HACS/CBC, if people start using T1 more :)
Yeah great, simply because some people can't afford HACs/CBCs they should make them suck so hard so nobody wants to fly them. Makes perfect sense... perhaps there's a company in Iceland that could use people with ideas like yours.
if you would stop comparing ships effectiveness in relation to market prices, everything would be in a much brighter view. nowadays, HACs effieciency doesn't justify the market prices anymore. and that is great. the tier2 BC give everyone a low-budget alternative to the HACs
If that was aimed at me: I wasn't complaining about the costs, I think it's fine (could be a little cheaper, but not as big of an issue as their nerf now).
The point is that HACs were quite balanced before, in my opinion. You risked a lot by flying them, you gained a lot by flying them. Made perfect sense to me in the whole risk vs. reward thingy.
They didn't easily kill battleships pre-Kali and they don't stand a chance now, thßt is what bothers me. Consider the time spent to learn to fly a ship like that, it should be able to give a Battleship a decent fight. Not saying it should win, pre-Kali was fine.
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Imhotep Khem
Total Mayhem. Maelstrom Alliance
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Posted - 2006.12.01 13:22:00 -
[19]
I am going to assume this was a simple mistake. The tech 2 ships shoudl have first received the HP boost of the tech 1 ship they were based on, then an additional boost for tech 2. So tech 2 should be even further ahead than before Revelations.
I guess Tux thought this was build into the database somehow. I assume he will fix this in about 6 months :D
Meanwhile, watch the price of CS smash to the ground. I can't believe I just bought 2. I suppose the fleet command still has value, but that field command is not worth it. ____ If your not dyin' your not tryin'. |
Hayabusa Fury
Caldari Wu-Tang Financial Mordus Angels
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Posted - 2006.12.01 14:21:00 -
[20]
T2 is still superior to T1! It is just not by as much as before. T2, specifically HACs were way out of whack, hence the over blown prices. People exagerate wat to much. In this game ship effectiveness is measured by very small margins. 1% here, 3% there makes a HUGE difference. T2 being 120% better was silly. There will be balancing tweaks I am sure, but the day of overpowered ships by huge margins is over. I for one am glad.
The bonus to T2 is you can fit more damage mods because you don't need as many mods for good tanking. Not T2 is the only way to have a good tanking period. The change is good.
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"I can not recall the number of times my superior intellect has got me knee deep in ****!" --Harely Hayes |
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Zhaine
B e l l u m
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Posted - 2006.12.01 14:25:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Zhaine on 01/12/2006 14:26:39 People what the hell are you all on about?
It's meaningless to compare T1 HP to T2 HP. All damage is always of a type, raw DPS in never done to ships, and resists on T2 are better. It's like saying that a lorrie's engine is more powerful than a sports car's*. Yes technically, but what practical relavence does it have? You're comparing two figures that can't be objectively compared in such a simple way.
It's true that T1 got boosted more than T2 in Kali. I'm glad, we should all be.
*please don't hit me with any "actually it's not" comments. It's an analogy and if you don't understand it you're an idiot and there's no need to display it publically. - - - - - - - - - -
"PERGITE DEGUSTATE FORMOSUM BELLUM"
Forward to taste the beautiful war. . . |
Ghoest
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Posted - 2006.12.01 14:29:00 -
[22]
I can see some good log for Destryers having more hits than Interdictors.
But that logic does not carry through to Command ships vs Battle cruisers.
Wherever you went - here you are.
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Rayvonuk
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Posted - 2006.12.01 14:33:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Rayvonuk on 01/12/2006 14:33:58
Originally by: Zhaine Edited by: Zhaine on 01/12/2006 14:26:39 People what the hell are you all on about?
It's meaningless to compare T1 HP to T2 HP. All damage is always of a type, raw DPS in never done to ships, and resists on T2 are better. It's like saying that a lorrie's engine is more powerful than a sports car's*. Yes technically, but what practical relavence does it have? You're comparing two figures that can't be objectively compared in such a simple way.
It's true that T1 got boosted more than T2 in Kali. I'm glad, we should all be.
*please don't hit me with any "actually it's not" comments. It's an analogy and if you don't understand it you're an idiot and there's no need to display it publically.
here here, Since when was one ship better than the other because it had more HP ?
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Taurequis
Waylander 01
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Posted - 2006.12.01 14:40:00 -
[24]
Its not about balancing out tier 1 and 2 or tech 1 and 2 ships...
Its about balancing noobs with vets...
Now everyone is going to be flying tech 1 ships again its much fairer on the new starts..
Taur
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Bradstone
BRADNETT Pride - Honor - Duty
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Posted - 2006.12.01 14:48:00 -
[25]
Hi all,
After the patch there are a few unknown or odd nerfs/updates made. TBH I was a little upset that the drake has 7 launcher slots and the nighthawk has 6, the thought of having nOoBs with less then half the skills being able to out gun a command ship, its like making a ship as powerful as a titian but half the skills.
But, I feel quite happy about the HP on the nighthawk, itÆs not the amount of HP you have its how you use it I don't want to say I am happy with the nighthawk, as it would be nerfed in days, but as long as I can still out dmg a drake I will be happy :D
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Saundra Fayid
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Posted - 2006.12.01 14:50:00 -
[26]
I really feel for Tux when the populous starts whining because they have such a narrow focus... pick one issue point a finger at it and cry.
more HP isnt the single wining factor you also have resistances to look at, add rigs to that now, and the extra bonuses HACs get. plus the skill requirements you need to fly one give the average HAC flier a bonus over the average BC flier.
please someone look at the whole picture on one of these crybaby whine threads...
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Johnny Bravo
Gallente Draconis Navitas Aeterna
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Posted - 2006.12.01 15:47:00 -
[27]
So, T2 ships recived 10-15% less HP boost than T1 ships and you have started to call it "useless" and "major nerfed"? Fine, more T2 ships for less price for me...
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Blind Man
Caldari Kemono.
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Posted - 2006.12.01 15:48:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Xendie its the logic of tuxfords balancing. only he can understand it.
QFT Sig removed.\o/ It's great flying Amarr, ain't it? |
Li Seung
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Posted - 2006.12.02 09:37:00 -
[29]
fix pls
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Skeltek
Caldari Asgard Schiffswerften Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.12.02 10:00:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Skeltek on 02/12/2006 10:00:46
Originally by: Johnny Bravo So, T2 ships recived 10-15% less HP boost than T1 ships and you have started to call it "useless" and "major nerfed"? Fine, more T2 ships for less price for me...
It¦s not 10-15%. They are talking about tech1 Battlecruisers getting 56% more HP while Commandships get 28% more HP. 56-28=10 yeah <.<
I don¦t know what you are whining about in this thread. When I pointed out the issue a month BEFORE Kali hit Tranquility, noone even bothered to answer in that thread. Since I had pointed it out and noone seemed to be bothered, it was absolutely natural for me to presume it was intended this way ^^
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