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Nyveris NeVonte
Hedion University Amarr Empire
2
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Posted - 2015.07.19 14:00:49 -
[1] - Quote
Greetings Folks, I'm posting another thread because I could no longer ignore an aggravating fact that I've noticed about armor tanking, specifically for Marauders. The Advantages that active shield tanking Marauders have over the armor tankers is mind numbing.
First: They have access to a great active shield tanking boost implant set called Crystals. I know the armor tankers have access to Slaves, but Slaves only gives boost to raw armor HP amount which only benefits armor buffer tankers backed with logic support. This greatly devalues their usefulness for the Paladin and Kronos which cannot receive external boost of any kind while in bastion mode.
Second: Shield boosters of all sizes boosts every 4 seconds and boosts are received at the beginning of each of these cycles as oppose to armor reppers that reps every (with armor repair V) 11 seconds for large, 7.2 seconds for mediums and 4.5 seconds for small (the only one that can compete with shield boosting). On top of that the armor reps are received at the end of each of these cycles as opposed to the beginning of each cycles with shield boosters. This means that a Paladin would need 3 large armor reppers to have comparable active tanking ability as a XL shield boosted Golem. Adding to this problem is the huge Pwg fitting requirements for large armor repairers which are around 2000 vs only 550 for a XL shield booster. I know that shield boosters takes a lot more CPU to fit, but the point is that large armor reppers Pwg requirements are way too much for the tank they're able to provide currently.
Third: Shield boosters have a nice module called SBA II which gives a 36% shield boost amount that cost only about 2 mill isk as compared to a Nano Pump II & Nano Accelerator II that gives a meager 20% to armor rep amount and cycle time that cost a whopping 125 mill isk.
Fourth: Shield boosters can use ASBs (even with multiple fittings) that require NO CAP, but for some strange reason the armor ancillary repairers takes up the same cap as a regular ship sized repairer AND you can only fit ONE of them, seriously? Yes I know that it takes nano paste instead of cap boosters that doesn't take up that much cargo space and that when loaded with nano paste that the AARs reps 3x as much, but it still can't compare with the capless dual XL asb fits that I've seen on Sleipnirs and Vargurs.
Proposal: I have several proposals that would help bridge the huge gap that shield tanking Marauders have over armor tanking marauders. Any one of these changes would be a start but preferably I'd hope for at least two of these proposals implemented.
First Proposal: Create a new low slot module that increase armor rep amount by 50%. This will free up cap and also much needed Pwg using only one large repairer and to finally be able to fit something in those empty high slots like Nos/Nuets or large smartbombs.
Second Proposal: Introduce another skill for the Armror Tanking Skill Tree called Advanced Armor Repairer with a 2x training multiplier that provides additional 5% increase to armor repairer cycle time per skill level.
Third Proposal: Replace a high slot for an additional low slot on the Paladin and Kronos. With the high Pwg requirements for dual large armor repairers there's often no Pwg left to fit anything useful in one of those empty high slots.
Fourth Proposal: Since only one AAR can be fitted on a ship I propose to Increase the charges per hold on the AAR from 8 to 13 (ala the original XL ASB charge capacity). And also since the cost of nano paste has skyrocketed in price once these modules came out, they should reduce the nano consumption per rep cycle from 8 to 4 for large AARs, and from 4 to 2 for medium AARs.
Well these are my thoughts on this topic. Any thoughts, suggestions, or improvements are welcome. But please keep it civil people, I'm very delicate.
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Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery Prolapse.
2593
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Posted - 2015.07.19 14:15:26 -
[2] - Quote
Hm. How about no?
Doctor Prince Field Marshall of Prolapse. Alliance and Grand Sasquatch of Bob
We take Batphones. Contact us at Hola Batmanuel - Free call 1800-UR-MOMMA
~~ Localectomy Blog ~~
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Nyveris NeVonte
Hedion University Amarr Empire
2
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Posted - 2015.07.19 14:22:23 -
[3] - Quote
Trinkets friend wrote:Hm. How about no?
why, you afraid Paladins and Kronoses would be able to perma-tank your little gang of bee stingers?
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elitatwo
Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team
749
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Posted - 2015.07.19 15:15:35 -
[4] - Quote
Nyveris NeVonte wrote:Trinkets friend wrote:Hm. How about no? why, you afraid Paladins and Kronoses would be able to perma-tank your little gang of bee stingers?
What is that supposed to mean? I do not believe that Trinkets is afraid but he know that would create a massive imbalance to armor doctrines. Paladins and Kronoses are not the only armor ships in the game.
If you cannot fit a Paladin properly that is on you, only you and nobody else.
I think what happened is that you yolod your Paladin into low or nullsec and you met the imbalance an energy neutralizer being able to be fit and all ships made your Paladin have a really bad day.
Tired of low and nullsec? Join Eve Minions and experience the beauty of wormholes!
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Belthazor4011
For Your Bacon Only The Marmite Collective
182
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Posted - 2015.07.19 15:27:29 -
[5] - Quote
Well I am an armor boy, lets start with that.
But all suggested changes would effect all ships not just the 2 Marauders, so they can't be done.
Hyp, Deimos, Incursus, Confessor, Hecate, Myrm and a few more are already insanely good at what they do. All these changes would make these ships extremely OP
That said why care about Marauders anyways? They're made to do lvl 4s really well and they already do that, the armor ones can easily keep up with them as well usually with higher DPS fits than the shield ones.
Unless you wanna play station games the Marauder is useless in PVP. Oh no how am I gonna get away from the ships that can't move?! Oh right fly away, silly me.
Plus many more things factor in, fancy EANMs are much cheaper than fancy invuls. Getting the same performance costs more on a shield boat.
Armor boats have a (much) better buffer even without slaves. (which is why I like them)
Etc etc, since I've played this game (since 2010) I dont think the balance between armor and shield has been this good. Just because 2 armor Marauders have lesser ability to do something they are not supposed to do (PVP) isn't really an excuse to go f*ck the whole game up.
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Kalihira
Ultramar Independent Contracting
35
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Posted - 2015.07.19 15:34:51 -
[6] - Quote
Nyveris NeVonte wrote:Trinkets friend wrote:Hm. How about no? why, you afraid Paladins and Kronoses would be able to perma-tank your little gang of bee stingers?
since when do the other two marauders do that? |
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
702
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Posted - 2015.07.19 16:00:39 -
[7] - Quote
elitatwo wrote:Nyveris NeVonte wrote:Trinkets friend wrote:Hm. How about no? why, you afraid Paladins and Kronoses would be able to perma-tank your little gang of bee stingers? What is that supposed to mean? I do not believe that Trinkets is afraid but he know that would create a massive imbalance to armor doctrines. Paladins and Kronoses are not the only armor ships in the game.
This would be the issue. Most of the ideas presented are all armour ships mods. The only marauder specific one is the slot changes really.
Also will admit to having a morbid curiosity to the fits they are deeming as inadequate really. May we see what you think is lacking fit wise OP?
And what they failed in and how. Since its marauders will assume pve....so I'd be guessing poor rat management and too many triggers hit. Or just fit for the wrong task. OP I know its heresy to some but sometimes assumed tank by gank does not always work well all the time and a 3 slot tank common for these tank by gank fit needs to go say 4 or more with moar resists. Sometimes you can't knock em down fast enough and need to beef up the actual real tank.
This even on marauders. I know many who go minimal tank riding (too) heavily on the bastion resist boost. Great plan I guess. Just has that small flaw of what happens, you know, when you are not in bastion. Or dc'd. |
Ralph King-Griffin
Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance
10841
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Posted - 2015.07.19 16:59:15 -
[8] - Quote
noble implants + two Nano Pump II + 1 faction repper and an ancill combined with the obscenely high ------>passive<------ resists you can get with armour and you can tank Jesus Christ himself pretty much till you run out of cap boosters or someone slaps you silly with a bagglehorn or a legion.
the only disparity in my mind is that the vauger and golem can "lol neuts" and keep fighting but the armour ones stop shooting, you can keep tanking though if you are good with your boosts but you wouldn't be killing anything.
=]|[=
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Stitch Kaneland
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
421
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Posted - 2015.07.19 17:34:47 -
[9] - Quote
Nyveris NeVonte wrote:
First: They have access to a great active shield tanking boost implant set called Crystals. I know the armor tankers have access to Slaves, but Slaves only gives boost to raw armor HP amount which only benefits armor buffer tankers backed with logic support. This greatly devalues their usefulness for the Paladin and Kronos which cannot receive external boost of any kind while in bastion mode.
Second: Shield boosters of all sizes boosts every 4 seconds and boosts are received at the beginning of each of these cycles as oppose to armor reppers that reps every (with armor repair V) 11 seconds for large, 7.2 seconds for mediums and 4.5 seconds for small (the only one that can compete with shield boosting). On top of that the armor reps are received at the end of each of these cycles as opposed to the beginning of each cycles with shield boosters. This means that a Paladin would need 3 large armor reppers to have comparable active tanking ability as a XL shield boosted Golem. Adding to this problem is the huge Pwg fitting requirements for large armor repairers which are around 2000 vs only 550 for a XL shield booster. I know that shield boosters takes a lot more CPU to fit, but the point is that large armor reppers Pwg requirements are way too much for the tank they're able to provide currently.
Third: Shield boosters have a nice module called SBA II which gives a 36% shield boost amount that cost only about 2 mill isk as compared to a Nano Pump II & Nano Accelerator II that gives a meager 20% to armor rep amount and cycle time that cost a whopping 125 mill isk.
Fourth: Shield boosters can use ASBs (even with multiple fittings) that require NO CAP, but for some strange reason the armor ancillary repairers takes up the same cap as a regular ship sized repairer AND you can only fit ONE of them, seriously? Yes I know that it takes nano paste instead of cap boosters that doesn't take up that much cargo space and that when loaded with nano paste that the AARs reps 3x as much, but it still can't compare with the capless dual XL asb fits that I've seen on Sleipnirs and Vargurs.
Proposal: I have several proposals that would help bridge the huge gap that shield tanking Marauders have over armor tanking marauders. Any one of these changes would be a start but preferably I'd hope for at least two of these proposals implemented.
First Proposal: Create a new low slot module that increase armor rep amount by 50%. This will free up cap and also much needed Pwg using only one large repairer and to finally be able to fit something in those empty high slots like Nos/Nuets or large smartbombs.
Second Proposal: Introduce another skill for the Armror Tanking Skill Tree called Advanced Armor Repairer with a 2x training multiplier that provides additional 5% increase to armor repairer cycle time per skill level.
Third Proposal: Replace a high slot for an additional low slot on the Paladin and Kronos. With the high Pwg requirements for dual large armor repairers there's often no Pwg left to fit anything useful in one of those empty high slots.
Fourth Proposal: Since only one AAR can be fitted on a ship I propose to Increase the charges per hold on the AAR from 8 to 13 (ala the original XL ASB charge capacity). And also since the cost of nano paste has skyrocketed in price once these modules came out, they should reduce the nano consumption per rep cycle from 8 to 4 for large AARs, and from 4 to 2 for medium AARs.
Well these are my thoughts on this topic. Any thoughts, suggestions, or improvements are welcome. But please keep it civil people, I'm very delicate.
1. Buffer is still useful on an active tanked ship. Less chance to bleed structure between reps. Or overboosting. I know pvp hyperions use slaves to help extend buffer so reps are better able to catch. Fly an XLASB vaga with an LSE and then without. Youll see why its nice to have some extra buffer.
2. Armor reps give more HP than shield boosters do. Hence the added time to cycle. Repping at the end isnt a big deal. Just start the cycle at low shield, and itll hit right as you take armor damage. This keeps shield/armor tanks from feeling the same. The PG requirements are what balance armor tanks. Same as high CPU for shield. Dont disregard that as a non issue. Most dual XLASB fits need cpu mods or pimp fittings to work.
3. I wish shields had a rig to increase shield boost that uses 0 cpu. SBA's use a lot of CPU in most cases. More or equal to an invuln. Where are you getting 125m? No one is forcing you to use t2 large rigs. Make your own if youre so concerned about cost. Standard rigs are around 10m.
4. AAR still rep after paste is gone. ASB do not. Unless you have boatloads of cap. This means they can still contribute to tanking, even when out of charges. Albeit at a reduced rate. But something is better than nothing. If ASB tanks are overwhelmed, they die.
This is what makes armor and shield tanks different. Making them similar is boring and takes away from the game and the rock, paper, scissors strategy EVE relies on.
Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role
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Tsukino Stareine
Sock Robbers Inc. Low-Class
1242
|
Posted - 2015.07.19 21:46:27 -
[10] - Quote
this isn't just limited to marauders, you don't have a very deep understanding of armour vs shield.
Each advantage shield has over armour that you listed, armour has an advantage. And then some. |
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Nyveris NeVonte
Hedion University Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2015.07.19 23:28:34 -
[11] - Quote
Belthazor4011 wrote:Well I am an armor boy, lets start with that.
But all suggested changes would effect all ships not just the 2 Marauders, so they can't be done.
Hyp, Deimos, Incursus, Confessor, Hecate, Myrm and a few more are already insanely good at what they do. All these changes would make these ships extremely OP
That said why care about Marauders anyways? They're made to do lvl 4s really well and they already do that, the armor ones can easily keep up with them as well usually with higher DPS fits than the shield ones.
Unless you wanna play station games the Marauder is useless in PVP. Oh no how am I gonna get away from the ships that can't move?! Oh right fly away, silly me.
Plus many more things factor in, fancy EANMs are much cheaper than fancy invuls. Getting the same performance costs more on a shield boat.
Armor boats have a (much) better buffer even without slaves. (which is why I like them)
Etc etc, since I've played this game (since 2010) I dont think the balance between armor and shield has been this good. Just because 2 armor Marauders have lesser ability to do something they are not supposed to do (PVP) isn't really an excuse to go f*ck the whole game up.
Actually I stated that only one of these ideas would suffice, not all of them at once. And I have no intentions of doing something like PVP in these expensive ships. My NMs do lev 4s just fine, why would I need a Marauder for those? My intentions was to do C4 Whs in them and the changes was to help their survival changes when they get jumped on.
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Tsukino Stareine
Sock Robbers Inc. Low-Class
1243
|
Posted - 2015.07.19 23:40:21 -
[12] - Quote
Paladin is one of the only ones that can do C5 sites reliably.
And you are here complaining about armour tanking.
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Nyveris NeVonte
Hedion University Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2015.07.19 23:49:27 -
[13] - Quote
Stitch Kaneland wrote:Nyveris NeVonte wrote:
First: They have access to a great active shield tanking boost implant set called Crystals. I know the armor tankers have access to Slaves, but Slaves only gives boost to raw armor HP amount which only benefits armor buffer tankers backed with logic support. This greatly devalues their usefulness for the Paladin and Kronos which cannot receive external boost of any kind while in bastion mode.
Second: Shield boosters of all sizes boosts every 4 seconds and boosts are received at the beginning of each of these cycles as oppose to armor reppers that reps every (with armor repair V) 11 seconds for large, 7.2 seconds for mediums and 4.5 seconds for small (the only one that can compete with shield boosting). On top of that the armor reps are received at the end of each of these cycles as opposed to the beginning of each cycles with shield boosters. This means that a Paladin would need 3 large armor reppers to have comparable active tanking ability as a XL shield boosted Golem. Adding to this problem is the huge Pwg fitting requirements for large armor repairers which are around 2000 vs only 550 for a XL shield booster. I know that shield boosters takes a lot more CPU to fit, but the point is that large armor reppers Pwg requirements are way too much for the tank they're able to provide currently.
Third: Shield boosters have a nice module called SBA II which gives a 36% shield boost amount that cost only about 2 mill isk as compared to a Nano Pump II & Nano Accelerator II that gives a meager 20% to armor rep amount and cycle time that cost a whopping 125 mill isk.
Fourth: Shield boosters can use ASBs (even with multiple fittings) that require NO CAP, but for some strange reason the armor ancillary repairers takes up the same cap as a regular ship sized repairer AND you can only fit ONE of them, seriously? Yes I know that it takes nano paste instead of cap boosters that doesn't take up that much cargo space and that when loaded with nano paste that the AARs reps 3x as much, but it still can't compare with the capless dual XL asb fits that I've seen on Sleipnirs and Vargurs.
Proposal: I have several proposals that would help bridge the huge gap that shield tanking Marauders have over armor tanking marauders. Any one of these changes would be a start but preferably I'd hope for at least two of these proposals implemented.
First Proposal: Create a new low slot module that increase armor rep amount by 50%. This will free up cap and also much needed Pwg using only one large repairer and to finally be able to fit something in those empty high slots like Nos/Nuets or large smartbombs.
Second Proposal: Introduce another skill for the Armror Tanking Skill Tree called Advanced Armor Repairer with a 2x training multiplier that provides additional 5% increase to armor repairer cycle time per skill level.
Third Proposal: Replace a high slot for an additional low slot on the Paladin and Kronos. With the high Pwg requirements for dual large armor repairers there's often no Pwg left to fit anything useful in one of those empty high slots.
Fourth Proposal: Since only one AAR can be fitted on a ship I propose to Increase the charges per hold on the AAR from 8 to 13 (ala the original XL ASB charge capacity). And also since the cost of nano paste has skyrocketed in price once these modules came out, they should reduce the nano consumption per rep cycle from 8 to 4 for large AARs, and from 4 to 2 for medium AARs.
Well these are my thoughts on this topic. Any thoughts, suggestions, or improvements are welcome. But please keep it civil people, I'm very delicate.
1. Buffer is still useful on an active tanked ship. Less chance to bleed structure between reps. Or overboosting. I know pvp hyperions use slaves to help extend buffer so reps are better able to catch. Fly an XLASB vaga with an LSE and then without. Youll see why its nice to have some extra buffer. 2. Armor reps give more HP than shield boosters do. Hence the added time to cycle. Repping at the end isnt a big deal. Just start the cycle at low shield, and itll hit right as you take armor damage. This keeps shield/armor tanks from feeling the same. The PG requirements are what balance armor tanks. Same as high CPU for shield. Dont disregard that as a non issue. Most dual XLASB fits need cpu mods or pimp fittings to work. 3. I wish shields had a rig to increase shield boost that uses 0 cpu. SBA's use a lot of CPU in most cases. More or equal to an invuln. Where are you getting 125m? No one is forcing you to use t2 large rigs. Make your own if youre so concerned about cost. Standard rigs are around 10m. 4. AAR still rep after paste is gone. ASB do not. Unless you have boatloads of cap. This means they can still contribute to tanking, even when out of charges. Albeit at a reduced rate. But something is better than nothing. If ASB tanks are overwhelmed, they die. This is what makes armor and shield tanks different. Making them similar is boring and takes away from the game and the rock, paper, scissors strategy EVE relies on.
The best response by far and you seem like you really know what you're talking about, Thank you Mr Kaneland. The reason for my propose changes was because currently I see no way for a Paladin/Kronos to survive if they get jumped on in a WH. One of the main reasons for their vulnerability is Bastion Mode that is a double edge sword for Marauders when venturing in hostile territory. I watch tons of videos, and went back to play with Pfya to try and figure out a counter fit that would increase their survival chances against the gankers when they come. The conclusion lead to this proposal because in their current state, the Marauders will perish (especially the armor tankers).
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Nyveris NeVonte
Hedion University Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2015.07.19 23:55:55 -
[14] - Quote
Tsukino Stareine wrote:Paladin is one of the only ones that can do C5 sites reliably.
And you are here complaining about armour tanking.
No one is complaining dear. I'm trying to get feedback on my thoughts about armor tanking for the Paladin/Kronos. If they are wrong, then I would appreciate constructive feedback as to why like Mr. Kaneland did.
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Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery Prolapse.
2598
|
Posted - 2015.07.20 00:04:11 -
[15] - Quote
Hey, if you can't do level 4's in a Paladin, it's your useless skills and piloting, not the ship.
I do L4's in my Vargur using a T2 fit and a Dred Guristas Large Shield Booster. If you can't do them with a dual rep Paladin with AAR, you are the one with the cruddy skills.
Doctor Prince Field Marshall of Prolapse. Alliance and Grand Sasquatch of Bob
We take Batphones. Contact us at Hola Batmanuel - Free call 1800-UR-MOMMA
~~ Localectomy Blog ~~
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Nyveris NeVonte
Hedion University Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2015.07.20 00:11:31 -
[16] - Quote
Zan Shiro wrote:elitatwo wrote:Nyveris NeVonte wrote:Trinkets friend wrote:Hm. How about no? why, you afraid Paladins and Kronoses would be able to perma-tank your little gang of bee stingers? What is that supposed to mean? I do not believe that Trinkets is afraid but he know that would create a massive imbalance to armor doctrines. Paladins and Kronoses are not the only armor ships in the game. This would be the issue. Most of the ideas presented are all armour ships mods. The only marauder specific one is the slot changes really. Also will admit to having a morbid curiosity to the fits they are deeming as inadequate really. May we see what you think is lacking fit wise OP? And what they failed in and how. Since its marauders will assume pve....so I'd be guessing poor rat management and too many triggers hit. Or just fit for the wrong task. OP I know its heresy to some but sometimes assumed tank by gank does not always work well all the time and a 3 slot tank common for these tank by gank fit needs to go say 4 or more with moar resists. Sometimes you can't knock em down fast enough and need to beef up the actual real tank. This even on marauders. I know many who go minimal tank riding (too) heavily on the bastion resist boost. Great plan I guess. Just has that small flaw of what happens, you know, when you are not in bastion. Or dc'd.
Another good post, Thank you Mr. Shiro. Can I ask you, is it feasible then to even try to do C4's in these Marauders. There's really no use for them potentially in high-sec because the NMs does lev 4's just as good. |
Nyveris NeVonte
Hedion University Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2015.07.20 00:15:03 -
[17] - Quote
Trinkets friend wrote:Hey, if you can't do level 4's in a Paladin, it's your useless skills and piloting, not the ship.
I do L4's in my Vargur using a T2 fit and a Dred Guristas Large Shield Booster. If you can't do them with a dual rep Paladin with AAR, you are the one with the cruddy skills.
You must be drunk, No where in this thread did I say or even hinted that I can't do level 4's in a Paladin. And my skills are top notch for my age thank you. And I don't even need a Paladin for level 4's when my NM rocks them back in forth all day long without breaking a sweat. |
Iyokus Patrouette
Sudden Buggery Prolapse.
571
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Posted - 2015.07.20 01:09:18 -
[18] - Quote
Nyveris NeVonte wrote: why, you afraid Paladins and Kronoses would be able to perma-tank your little gang of bee stingers?
If this happens, we'll reship into a little gang of dogs and when we bark we'll shoot bees out of our mouths.
---- Advocate for the initiation of purple coloured wormholes----
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Khan Wrenth
Hedion University Amarr Empire
185
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Posted - 2015.07.20 02:48:07 -
[19] - Quote
Simpler solution:
Bastion provides boost to active tanking. Rebalance the shield and armor rep stats so the shield rep bonus is nerfed by 20%.
Let's discuss overhauling the way we get intel in EvE.
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
1307
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Posted - 2015.07.20 08:40:36 -
[20] - Quote
Kalihira wrote:Nyveris NeVonte wrote:Trinkets friend wrote:Hm. How about no? why, you afraid Paladins and Kronoses would be able to perma-tank your little gang of bee stingers? since when do the other two marauders do that? Ferocious 6.0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dQKmODSLkE Bastionnades https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4jQENEsbdk
decent bit of footage showing shield marauders tanking a bunch of little bees.
I think my main concern with the paladin/kronos would be hitting small ships, but that is mostly a solo problem.
@ChainsawPlankto
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Barrogh Habalu
Forever Winter Absolute Zero.
937
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Posted - 2015.07.20 13:01:26 -
[21] - Quote
Khan Wrenth wrote:Simpler solution:
Bastion provides boost to active tanking. Rebalance the shield and armor rep stats so the shield rep bonus is nerfed by 20%. Not sure if your second sentence is one of solutions, but bastion already doubles your active tanking abilities (armor repair and shield boost amounts).
Future of T3 cruisers - multi-tool they aspired to be instead of sledgehammer they have become
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Stitch Kaneland
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
429
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Posted - 2015.07.20 15:29:16 -
[22] - Quote
Its not armor tanking that limits the kronos/paladin. Its the lack of mids for extra CB. A golem or varg COULD run dual cap boosters with XLSB. XLASB is cheaper/stronger though, in most cases anyway. The kronos/pal only have 4 mids. Meaning in most cases you get 1 CB.
Under heavy neut pressure, a single CB isnt going to cut it to allow tank/guns to run. Some of this can be side stepped with nos. But its sketchy at best. That is why pal/kronos are less viable. As if you include MJD, then you lose mid for tackle. Just a poor slot layout IMO.
However looking outside solo. A fleet of paladins could be downright fearsome with logi.
Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role
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Perihelion Olenard
208
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Posted - 2015.07.20 18:40:14 -
[23] - Quote
Stitch Kaneland wrote:Its not armor tanking that limits the kronos/paladin. Its the lack of mids for extra CB. A golem or varg COULD run dual cap boosters with XLSB. XLASB is cheaper/stronger though, in most cases anyway. The kronos/pal only have 4 mids. Meaning in most cases you get 1 CB.
Under heavy neut pressure, a single CB isnt going to cut it to allow tank/guns to run. Some of this can be side stepped with nos. But its sketchy at best. That is why pal/kronos are less viable. As if you include MJD, then you lose mid for tackle. Just a poor slot layout IMO.
However looking outside solo. A fleet of paladins could be downright fearsome with logi. You can't use the MJD or receive any support including logistics in bastion mode. It would be pointless to activate a MWD or afterburner in bastion since you can't move. Therefore, with 4 med slots, you can fit a warp disruptor or scrambler, a web, and two large cap boosters. |
Pax Deltari
R3d Fire
24
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Posted - 2015.07.20 19:05:44 -
[24] - Quote
Belthazor4011 wrote:Well I am an armor boy, lets start with that. That said why care about Marauders anyways? They're made to do lvl 4s really well and they already do that.
Wat?
Paladin, Kronos are like the only ships that can Solo C5's... Armor Mara's have less cap problems than Shield Mara's. So they're harder to counter with Neuts in PvP / PvE. Also stop fitting your maradurs with T2 Mods and fit them with faction/complex gear. Your tank goes through the roof with even C-types and they're not that expensive...
Honestly if you want to use these ships you need to understand your fitting needs to be dynamic. Grab a mobile depot switch your fit on the fly based on what you're up against. This goes for PvP and PvE. |
Nyveris NeVonte
Hedion University Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 01:06:25 -
[25] - Quote
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:Kalihira wrote:Nyveris NeVonte wrote:Trinkets friend wrote:Hm. How about no? why, you afraid Paladins and Kronoses would be able to perma-tank your little gang of bee stingers? since when do the other two marauders do that? Ferocious 6.0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dQKmODSLkE Bastionnades https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4jQENEsbdk decent bit of footage showing shield marauders tanking a bunch of little bees. I think my main concern with the paladin/kronos would be hitting small ships, but that is mostly a solo problem.
How do you link videos like that? I wish to share a video I saw on Youtube called Streamer Paladin Gank! HUGE TANK!.
This video was what inspired me to come up with ideas to help increase survivability of the armor tanking Marauders when they get jumped on in WHs.
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Nyveris NeVonte
Hedion University Amarr Empire
3
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Posted - 2015.07.21 01:18:29 -
[26] - Quote
Pax Deltari wrote:Belthazor4011 wrote:Well I am an armor boy, lets start with that. That said why care about Marauders anyways? They're made to do lvl 4s really well and they already do that.
Wat? Paladin, Kronos are like the only ships that can Solo C5's... Armor Mara's have less cap problems than Shield Mara's. So they're harder to counter with Neuts in PvP / PvE. Also stop fitting your maradurs with T2 Mods and fit them with faction/complex gear. Your tank goes through the roof with even C-types and they're not that expensive... Honestly if you want to use these ships you need to understand your fitting needs to be dynamic. Grab a mobile depot switch your fit on the fly based on what you're up against. This goes for PvP and PvE.
Soloing C5's?? That can't be right. Can you post me or send me via email in game on a fit that can Solo C5s please. Also some helpful advice/tips on how to avoid ganks pretty please.
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
1310
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Posted - 2015.07.21 02:49:15 -
[27] - Quote
Perihelion Olenard wrote:Stitch Kaneland wrote:Its not armor tanking that limits the kronos/paladin. Its the lack of mids for extra CB. A golem or varg COULD run dual cap boosters with XLSB. XLASB is cheaper/stronger though, in most cases anyway. The kronos/pal only have 4 mids. Meaning in most cases you get 1 CB.
Under heavy neut pressure, a single CB isnt going to cut it to allow tank/guns to run. Some of this can be side stepped with nos. But its sketchy at best. That is why pal/kronos are less viable. As if you include MJD, then you lose mid for tackle. Just a poor slot layout IMO.
However looking outside solo. A fleet of paladins could be downright fearsome with logi. You can't use the MJD or receive any support including logistics in bastion mode. It would be pointless to activate a MWD or afterburner in bastion since you can't move. Therefore, with 4 med slots, you can fit a warp disruptor or scrambler, a web, and two large cap boosters. Bastion is what I bought a Kronos for. If I won't be using bastion, I can use another battleship that may do more damage, have more mid slots, or have other bonuses. Even if there were enough slots for multiple propulsion modules, tackle, neutron blasters, dual cap boosters, and armor repairers, there isn't enough PG to fit it all. Something would have to be sacrificed.
positioning is very important outside of bastion. not having any prop mod at all is a bad idea.
in fleet I would think the idea would be to in general stay out of bastion, maybe have a few ships use it if ewar is an issue, and use an AAR to hopefully coast out of bastion and get logi reps.
@ChainsawPlankto
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Barrogh Habalu
Forever Winter Absolute Zero.
937
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Posted - 2015.07.21 05:38:13 -
[28] - Quote
On the other hand, we have armor Hyperion, Kronos and Navy Mega (IIRC) in One Man Crew video...
Pax Deltari wrote:Honestly if you want to use these ships you need to understand your fitting needs to be dynamic. Grab a mobile depot switch your fit on the fly based on what you're up against. This goes for PvP and PvE. While certainly useful and having sorta synergy with marauders, when faced with such fat target people will not hesitate to reinforce depots in no time.
Nyveris NeVonte wrote:Soloing C5's?? That can't be right. Can you post me or send me via email in game on a fit that can Solo C5s please. Also some helpful advice/tips on how to avoid ganks pretty please. Old news are old.
Future of T3 cruisers - multi-tool they aspired to be instead of sledgehammer they have become
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Nyveris NeVonte
Hedion University Amarr Empire
3
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Posted - 2015.07.21 09:23:30 -
[29] - Quote
Barrogh Habalu wrote:On the other hand, we have armor Hyperion, Kronos and Navy Mega (IIRC) in One Man Crew video... Pax Deltari wrote:Honestly if you want to use these ships you need to understand your fitting needs to be dynamic. Grab a mobile depot switch your fit on the fly based on what you're up against. This goes for PvP and PvE. While certainly useful and having sorta synergy with marauders, when faced with such fat target people will not hesitate to reinforce depots in no time. Nyveris NeVonte wrote:Soloing C5's?? That can't be right. Can you post me or send me via email in game on a fit that can Solo C5s please. Also some helpful advice/tips on how to avoid ganks pretty please. Old news are old.
Geez, so many smart people play eve it's scary. Very nice keyboard talent you got there Barrogh. Just so you know I've already googled this information and It didn't convince me enough, So I wanted MOAR info if I can get it cause I'm greedy. |
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