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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6414
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Posted - 2015.07.21 18:05:14 -
[61] - Quote
Vimsy Vortis wrote:No, they don't. They will literally warn/ban you for being suspect flagged in a rookie system if anyone petitions you. regardless of whether or not you even shoot at anyone.
The whole issue came up ages ago when Arnon was declared a rookie system because it's near by to fairly active lowsec, is a minor market hub, has many large ore belts and has non-rookie agents in system. Initially CCP stated that you could do pretty much whatever so long as you didn't target "rookies" and then people started getting bans and warnings for blowing up hulks and tengus. People then asked what the hell a rookie was, the GMs then basically lost their ****, told everyone not to try and game the rules and "there are other ways to kill people so don't be suspect flagged!!" Since then they've essentially been enforcing zero tolerance and also extending it to duels and suicide ganking.
You're welcome to go try it, I'll pass though. Where exactly did the GM lose their ****? I've not seen that. And quite honestly I don't believe it's quite that harsh, though I can understand why it might be. Going suspect in a rookie system it's hard to claim that's for a good reason and CCP won't necessarily have all the data without being there to see it.
That said, where did I say you should go to a rookie system and go suspect? War decs don't have suspect timers, and you blowing your war targets out of the sky in and around rookie systems has the same effect. As long as you aren't (and can't be mistaken for) baiting newbies into timers, you're fine. Duels you will again be fine if it's not against actual rookies.
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6414
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 18:07:07 -
[62] - Quote
Mobadder Thworst wrote:My post have nothing to do with a desire to shoot noobs. Yes it does, you literally stated as much.
Mobadder Thworst wrote:I just think we're ruining the game for them and us. You're certainly not ruining people's games by letting them live on their first trip out of a station.
Mobadder Thworst wrote:Retention numbers agree... They started leaving when my friends started leaving... Correlation does not imply causation.
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Lan Wang
V I R I I Ineluctable.
1137
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Posted - 2015.07.21 18:09:22 -
[63] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Lan Wang wrote:i dont think people know what they want when they come to eve, they find out what they want when they start playing, which the npe will influence that descision, unless you come to pvp then they are given no real help into getting that, basically thrown to the curb and told to read and get over it. You say that, but multiple parts of the NPE are around PvP mechanics. They can't put actual PvP into the NPE because there's no people sitting around ready to be part of a tutorial. It doesn't tell you how to use LP, harvest gas or research blueprints either. Whatever you get into when you arrive is going to require some level of reading up. Do you really think PvP would be much more appealing if you arrived, had no protection, got blown up by people far more knowledgeable about the game then you then got laughed at and insulted in local for being terrible? Most people's reaction to that exact thing tells me that people wouldn't find it very entertaining. And that's what EVE is supposed to be, it's entertainment, not a career choice. The thing is, many of us vets have the same story. We came to EVE, started doing carebearing and later found our way into the rest of the game. Yet a new player arrives and tries to do carebearing and apparently that's not allowed, they need to be instantly and repeatedly killed, that's the only way they'll ever be able to play EVE.
i think noobs should have the choice to follow pvp by putting them straight into faction warfare with a new set tutorials based on fitting ships and pvp basics, maybe against npc's but against a newer ai which will describe what an opponent would do and how to counter it. thats just a crappy idea anyway but what im saying is security missions teach you nothing about pvp, and once the tutorials are done the only thing to do is security missions till you eventually find something which gives you info on being something else
when i done tutorials there was nothing to teach me anything pvp based so i had to just wonder around and ask people, all the guys i joined with were more concerned with making isk by mining and gettin a pos up asap, i just wanted to shoot people so a little bit more on how to fit ships for pvp and where to go to get pvp would have been helpful.
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6414
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Posted - 2015.07.21 18:15:34 -
[64] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:Lan Wang wrote:i dont think people know what they want when they come to eve, they find out what they want when they start playing, which the npe will influence that descision, unless you come to pvp then they are given no real help into getting that, basically thrown to the curb and told to read and get over it. You say that, but multiple parts of the NPE are around PvP mechanics. They can't put actual PvP into the NPE because there's no people sitting around ready to be part of a tutorial. It doesn't tell you how to use LP, harvest gas or research blueprints either. Whatever you get into when you arrive is going to require some level of reading up. Do you really think PvP would be much more appealing if you arrived, had no protection, got blown up by people far more knowledgeable about the game then you then got laughed at and insulted in local for being terrible? Most people's reaction to that exact thing tells me that people wouldn't find it very entertaining. And that's what EVE is supposed to be, it's entertainment, not a career choice. The thing is, many of us vets have the same story. We came to EVE, started doing carebearing and later found our way into the rest of the game. Yet a new player arrives and tries to do carebearing and apparently that's not allowed, they need to be instantly and repeatedly killed, that's the only way they'll ever be able to play EVE. i think noobs should have the choice to follow pvp by putting them straight into faction warfare with a new set tutorials based on fitting ships and pvp basics, maybe against npc's but against a newer ai which will describe what an opponent would do and how to counter it. thats just a crappy idea anyway but what im saying is security missions teach you nothing about pvp, and once the tutorials are done the only thing to do is security missions till you eventually find something which gives you info on being something else when i done tutorials there was nothing to teach me anything pvp based so i had to just wonder around and ask people, all the guys i joined with were more concerned with making isk by mining and gettin a pos up asap, i just wanted to shoot people so a little bit more on how to fit ships for pvp and where to go to get pvp would have been helpful. Yeah, sounds like a fair idea. I have no problems with people having the choice to dive straight into PvP. It would be very tough to get them up to speed on all of the mechanics in order to survive, but not impossible. I'd add that when you create your first character on an account that character should get a pack of items to get them started related to their chosen style. Relatively decent amounts of it like 50-100m. They'd have to have a look at the buddy system to make sure people can't farm free alt accounts to do it, but wouldn't be too tough.
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Tengu Grib
Black Hydra Consortium. CODE.
1278
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 18:28:37 -
[65] - Quote
Sasha delivers another quality product. Thanks for your hard work Sasha! |
Baaldor
Dixon Cox Butte Preservation Society Black Legion.
421
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Posted - 2015.07.21 18:34:33 -
[66] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Yeah, sounds like a fair idea. I have no problems with people having the choice to dive straight into PvP. It would be very tough to get them up to speed on all of the mechanics in order to survive, but not impossible. I'd add that when you create your first character on an account that character should get a pack of items to get them started related to their chosen style. Relatively decent amounts of it like 50-100m. They'd have to have a look at the buddy system to make sure people can't farm free alt accounts to do it, but wouldn't be too tough.
It is only as hard as the person makes it.
All the tools are there to jump right into PvP from the start.
it is just the mind set of the dude behind the key board.
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Mobadder Thworst
Noob Farmers Bad Neighbors.
497
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Posted - 2015.07.21 18:39:53 -
[67] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Mobadder Thworst wrote:My post have nothing to do with a desire to shoot noobs. Yes it does, you literally stated as much. Mobadder Thworst wrote:I just think we're ruining the game for them and us. You're certainly not ruining people's games by letting them live on their first trip out of a station. Mobadder Thworst wrote:Retention numbers agree... They started leaving when my friends started leaving... Correlation does not imply causation.
While it's easy to rely on the straw-man fallacy (or phallacy, in your case), I would find this discussion far more engaging if you addressed my argument instead of how you feel about me.
I can tell a griefer hurt your feelings. That's unfortunate.
But under your guidance a new player will only encounter tutorials and NPC missions within his 2 week trial.
I can't imagine doing that for two weeks and I'm not shocked that that business model isn't producing retention. I'd be bored stiff.
Can you describe what experience in that 2 week period a noob should experience? Right now it's flying around doing tutorials in a dead system with no chat, no smack, no senior players, and no challenge.
I liked eve because it was hard. I'm not arguing that shooting noobs is fun, I'm arguing that they're quitting because the new paradigm isn't fun.
Let's talk about the new player experience. Does the current system look good to you? |
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
2834
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Posted - 2015.07.21 18:56:43 -
[68] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Where exactly did the GM lose their ****? I've not seen that. And quite honestly I don't believe it's quite that harsh, though I can understand why it might be. Going suspect in a rookie system it's hard to claim that's for a good reason and CCP won't necessarily have all the data without being there to see it.
That said, where did I say you should go to a rookie system and go suspect? War decs don't have suspect timers, and you blowing your war targets out of the sky in and around rookie systems has the same effect. As long as you aren't (and can't be mistaken for) baiting newbies into timers, you're fine. Duels you will again be fine if it's not against actual rookies. There was a pretty extensive thread on the subject here on the forums that I can't be bothered to find because I am phone posting, I'll dig it up later, I also had a senior GM totally flip out via the petition system when I asked exactly why it isn't okay and how it is a violation of any rule to bait a 5 year old player in a faction battelship, inside his mission pocket into shooting you and he refused to give an answer, stated that baiting anyone anywhere near a rookie system was prohibited and closed the petition.
And you said he should annoy people in to declaring war on him in or around rookie systems, unless you mean he should say mean things to them 90% of the things you can do in highsec (as few as those things are) result in you being suspect flagged. In fact just fighting a war often results in you being suspect flagged because "neutral" has more meanings than the one presumed by the uninformed.
I personally have annoyed people into declaring war on me when I was a newbie in a t1 frigate with t1 guns on it (a 250 man alliance called Axiom versus our 6 man corp) in a system now considered a rookie system and then proceeded to kill those people in that system. The actions I did to make that happen would presently have gotten me banned.
I can see why it's easy to imagine my comments as being melodramatic or exaggerated, but they're not, highsec PVP has been neutered pretty severely, particularly in the way new players are exposed to it. There's very little incidental, low intensity PVP from things like ninja salvaging and can flipping anymore and there are no low-skill war corps. The first exposure a new player gets to pvp in highsec is a wardec from a 50-200 man dedicated pvp alliance.
That wasn't me, I didn't do that, the people who pushed for the restrictions on highsec pvp that eliminated the lower intensity PVP activities and casual and low SP wardec groups did. |
Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6415
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 19:11:25 -
[69] - Quote
Baaldor wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:Yeah, sounds like a fair idea. I have no problems with people having the choice to dive straight into PvP. It would be very tough to get them up to speed on all of the mechanics in order to survive, but not impossible. I'd add that when you create your first character on an account that character should get a pack of items to get them started related to their chosen style. Relatively decent amounts of it like 50-100m. They'd have to have a look at the buddy system to make sure people can't farm free alt accounts to do it, but wouldn't be too tough. It is only as hard as the person makes it. All the tools are there to jump right into PvP from the start. it is just the mind set of the dude behind the key board. Go patch newbies to know what to do and where to look then.
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6415
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 19:19:09 -
[70] - Quote
Mobadder Thworst wrote:While it's easy to rely on the straw-man fallacy (or phallacy, in your case), I would find this discussion far more engaging if you addressed my argument instead of how you feel about me. I'ts nto a strawman, you actually said it. You stated quite clearly "Without noobs for cannon fodder, there are no new pvpers or vets.". That implies that you believe we need noobs to be cannon fodder. Being cannon fodder means being shot, ergo you want to shoot noobs.
Mobadder Thworst wrote:I can tell a griefer hurt your feelings. That's unfortunate. Lol, what was that about a strawman? I've been here far too long for a griefer to have ever affected me.
Mobadder Thworst wrote:Can you describe what experience in that 2 week period a noob should experience? Right now it's flying around doing tutorials in a dead system with no chat, no smack, no senior players, and no challenge. What should a noob experience? Enough of the mechanics to know how to at least manoeuvre their ship, fit and use modules and understand the basic statistics of ships before they get blown out of the sky by some neckbeard with an inferiority complex.
Mobadder Thworst wrote:I liked eve because it was hard. I'm not arguing that shooting noobs is fun, I'm arguing that they're quitting because the new paradigm isn't fun.
Let's talk about the new player experience. Does the current system look good to you? The system looks better than it did, but not as good as it could be. BEar in mind mate, when I joined there was no NPE. You just appeared in space and went around doing stuff until you figured it out. In any case you weren't instantly confronted by some asshat going blinky yellow and trying to triggers duels with you so they could oneshot you. Does the NPE need improving? es, most definitely. Do noobs need to be blown to pieces and trolled in local for being terrible before they have any idea what they are doing? Certainly not.
Anyway, I thought you'd ragequit already.
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Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
2834
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Posted - 2015.07.21 19:35:18 -
[71] - Quote
In all fairness to mobadder newbies are going to be cannon fodder in a lot of PVP situations just because they tend to be treated as additional bodies that lack the experience to do a highly specialized or particularly pivotal role that has no kind of redundancy. The newbie tackle frigate is the default example, he might get point and catch something amazing, but the fight isn't expected to be dependent on his performance.
That's why I think newbies are better as bait than tackle, they're less likely to die, get to be more important, get to fly a bigger ship and are more likely to be the key to success without having to do anything super complicated. |
Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6420
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 19:49:29 -
[72] - Quote
Vimsy Vortis wrote:There was a pretty extensive thread on the subject here on the forums that I can't be bothered to find because I am phone posting, I'll dig it up later, I also had a senior GM totally flip out via the petition system when I asked exactly why it isn't okay and how it is a violation of any rule to bait a 5 year old player in a faction battelship, inside his mission pocket into shooting you and he refused to give an answer, stated that baiting anyone anywhere near a rookie system was prohibited and closed the petition. Well I've seen them specifically stating that it applies to newbies in the system, not just the system, though like I say I can believe that suspect flags would b a problem.
Vimsy Vortis wrote:And you said he should annoy people in to declaring war on him in or around rookie systems, unless you mean he should say mean things to them 90% of the things you can do in highsec (as few as those things are) result in you being suspect flagged. In fact just fighting a war often results in you being suspect flagged because "neutral" has more meanings than the one presumed by the uninformed. You can annoy them elsewhere and then go home and let them follow. More than 1 jump out and you'd be fine to go suspect anyway.
Vimsy Vortis wrote:I can see why it's easy to imagine my comments as being melodramatic or exaggerated, but they're not, highsec PVP has been neutered pretty severely, particularly in the way new players are exposed to it. There's very little incidental, low intensity PVP from things like ninja salvaging and can flipping anymore and there are no low-skill war corps. The first exposure a new player gets to pvp in highsec is a wardec from a 50-200 man dedicated pvp alliance. But it hasn't really, has it? Ninja salvaging and can flipping may be gone, but duel request and suspect baiting now exist. Ganking is about as common, albeit more organised now with actual fights occurring due to AGs trying to stop them, and wardecs are significantly more rife. You're right in one respect, there are very few low-skill wardec corps, but that's because all the wardec corps have become about mass farming easy targets with the highest possible isk efficiency. That's why I believe the next major change to highsec aggression will be completely restructuring wardec mechanics, as it's a serious activity blocker in highsec.
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6420
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 19:54:07 -
[73] - Quote
Vimsy Vortis wrote:In all fairness to mobadder newbies are going to be cannon fodder in a lot of PVP situations just because they tend to be treated as additional bodies that lack the experience to do a highly specialized or particularly pivotal role that has no kind of redundancy. The newbie tackle frigate is the default example, he might get point and catch something amazing, but the fight isn't expected to be dependent on his performance.
That's why I think newbies are better as bait than tackle, they're less likely to die, get to be more important, get to fly a bigger ship and are more likely to be the key to success without having to do anything super complicated. Anecdotally, I saw and entire fight hinge on a 3 day old player burning into a blob providing a warping for a dictor before the blob could get away. Such a hero.
But yeah, in a fleet fight they are't likely to be in a big role, but that doesn;t mean they should be automatically fed to bored players who want easy kills in highsec. Highsec is where they can learn how to not be cannon fodder in relative safety, especially if CCP actually get around to making better PvE AI so that smaller players need to approach them in the same way as they do for PvE. Lvl 1-3 burners would be a good start.
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Mobadder Thworst
Noob Farmers Bad Neighbors.
498
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Posted - 2015.07.21 20:06:21 -
[74] - Quote
Getting blasted is the best part of the noob experience.
Mining, grinding, and reading tutorials is work.
Without at least the threat or hope of pvp, they won't stay.
We're turning eve into a no-skill sim isk-hoarding game that makes no sense.
CCP has posted research suggesting that players who experience non-consensual pvp in their two week period are more likely to subscribe and play longer.
My argument is that I'm not the one hurting noobs, all the over-maternal white knights who are protecting them are.
Let them play... |
Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6421
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 20:33:30 -
[75] - Quote
Well having seen the reaction of noobs to being blown up, they certainly don;t seem to be enjoying it like you suggest. I'm thankful that your unsubbing and not running CCP.
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Carrie-Anne Moss
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
332
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 20:46:13 -
[76] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Well having seen the reaction of noobs to being blown up, they certainly don;t seem to be enjoying it like you suggest. I'm thankful that your unsubbing and not running CCP. Ccp runs ccp. And ccp said newbs that get blown early have drastically higher retention rates.
What you hear has no basis buddy.
FACTS AND DATA from ccp outweigh what you "hear" farmer |
Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6421
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Posted - 2015.07.21 20:47:38 -
[77] - Quote
Carrie-Anne Moss wrote:Ccp runs ccp. And ccp said newbs that get blown early have drastically higher retention rates. Not quite, but nice try. Misunderstanding statistics doesn't change what they mean.
Troll better.
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Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
2838
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 20:53:42 -
[78] - Quote
I think it's a strech to say they enjoy it, people don't enjoy losing (unless they are playing dwarf fortress). But it's even more ridiculous to claim that grown men find the experience of a fictional spaceship exploding so utterly harrowing that they immediately start crying and quit the game.
The specific circumstances under which a spaceship explodes matters. Your spaceship getting instantly blapped as you undock from jita is considerably more aggravating than your spaceship exploding because you shot someone who stole your ore and he turned out to be more than you can handle (not that canflipping exists anymore, it doesn't).
Feelings of confusion and powerlessness are the undesirable parts of newbie ship loss and that's exactly what the continuous papercut nerfs to highsec PVP have cultivated, there's no gradation to it. New players go instantly from not having to even think about another player potentially shooting them, to being tackled by a T3 or blapped by a tornado with nothing in between.
Measures that attempt to make highsec "safer" for new players just widen that gulf, PVP isn't something people need to be protected from until they meet some nebulous standard of being "Ready" for it, it's the major selling point of the game and should be a normal, routine thing for them to be exposed to from the very start of their time playing the game. |
Ralph King-Griffin
Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance
10880
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 21:00:30 -
[79] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Carrie-Anne Moss wrote:Ccp runs ccp. And ccp said newbs that get blown early have drastically higher retention rates. Not quite, but nice try. Misunderstanding statistics doesn't change what they mean. Troll better. In this case she's actually sort of right, they aren't drastically more likely but there's certainly some evidence that newbies don't mind getting blown up, they're not fond of being patronized about it granted but then no one would be. It's not entirely unreasonable to think that they might actually have come here (like a lot of us did) for the PvP.
=]|[=
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Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
2839
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Posted - 2015.07.21 21:02:05 -
[80] - Quote
The better metric to go by on that one would be that virtually no subscriptions get cancelled because of "ship loss". There's a sub expiry/cancellation survey. |
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Sasha Nyemtsov
Systems Administration and Control
138
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Posted - 2015.07.21 21:02:36 -
[81] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Carrie-Anne Moss wrote:Ccp runs ccp. And ccp said newbs that get blown early have drastically higher retention rates. Not quite, but nice try. Misunderstanding statistics doesn't change what they mean. Troll better.
Might I just poke my head around the door here?
I can't find the actual place, but it occurred during Fan Fest 2015 and is reported on James' blog, here. Gosh, I do hope that link works, I'm terrible at this. There's a screen cap of an image used by CCP in a presentation, maybe half-way down the page.
Just in case my skills are lacking, the words accompanying the image are (clearly from CCP hf):
"We were surprised... What about retention though? Backwards. People who die play longer. <1% of account cancellations cite ship loss or harassment"
The image is imprinted with the CCP logo.
I don't know how many ways you can slice such a bald admission.
www.minerbumping.com
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6421
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 21:08:33 -
[82] - Quote
Vimsy Vortis wrote:I think it's a strech to say they enjoy it, people don't enjoy losing (unless they are playing dwarf fortress). But it's even more ridiculous to claim that grown men find the experience of a fictional spaceship exploding so utterly harrowing that they immediately start crying and quit the game. I'm not saying they start crying and quit the game, and you know that full well. But when you first join a game, you're looking to see if you enjoy it. If you are half way though learning a basic mechanic and you get blown to pieces, that's hardly going to make you think "yay, what a game". I'm nto even saying that people then quit over it, but I wouldn't say that blowing up more noobs is a good way to encourage retention. Generally games work by introducing character to basic skills then letting them progress though content gaining more complex mechanics then widening out to the rest of the game. That's what highsec is for, to give people as place to learn without being eaten alive every few minutes.
Vimsy Vortis wrote:Feelings of confusion and powerlessness are the undesirable parts of newbie ship loss and that's exactly what the continuous papercut nerfs to highsec PVP have cultivated, there's no gradation to it. New players go instantly from not having to even think about another player potentially shooting them, to being tackled by a T3 or blapped by a tornado with nothing in between. You're right abot the undesirable parts of newbie ship loss, however as above I'm going to have to disagree with "papertcut nerfs". They've just replaced on set of mechanics with another.
Vimsy Vortis wrote:Measures that attempt to make highsec "safer" for new players just widen that gulf, PVP isn't something people need to be protected from until they meet some nebulous standard of being "Ready" for it, it's the major selling point of the game and should be a normal, routine thing for them to be exposed to from the very start of their time playing the game. And making hisec "more dangerous" only encourages more neckbeards with inferiority complexes to feel powerful by blapping rookies. Mechanics wouldn't be needed to make people safer if these types of people didn't spend every waking moment figuring out the best way to farm easy targets purely to make the player sad and harvest their tears.
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GordonO
Caldari Provisions
140
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Posted - 2015.07.21 21:12:47 -
[83] - Quote
Carrie-Anne Moss wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:Well having seen the reaction of noobs to being blown up, they certainly don;t seem to be enjoying it like you suggest. I'm thankful that your unsubbing and not running CCP. Ccp runs ccp. And ccp said newbs that get blown early have drastically higher retention rates. What you hear has no basis buddy. FACTS AND DATA from ccp outweigh what you "hear" farmer
Yea facts are important. I can honestly say if I was subject to the amount of "sandbox" activity (grifing, ganking, etc) when I started I would not be here now. One day CCP will realize not everyone wants to be involved in PVP activities but millions like space ships games. They might actually cater for that and the numbers may change. Sometimes after a killer day at work, you just want to shoot soe red crosses without the drama. That is of course my opinion.
And before anyone posts stats of how many new characters are created, you need to see how many haven't logged in for a long time and how many of those new characters are rerolls for gankers.
... What next ??
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Hadrian Blackstone
Yamato Holdings
141
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Posted - 2015.07.21 21:16:44 -
[84] - Quote
Vimsy Vortis wrote:Renegade Heart wrote:I think Vimsy is the kind of PvP'er who cares about his killboard that much that he will only engage when victory is 99.99999% assured. I'm not knocking it if that's what he wants out of the game. Each to their own. It's more a case of always doing whatever is necessary to assure that you win, regardless of what the stakes are. As a general principle I don't shoot at other people unless my intent is to explode their spaceship by any means I have available. That's why I declined to participate in the C&P thunderdome. I'd cheat, every single time without fail and that wouldn't be fair on people who're actually interested in participating properly. So no, I'm no going to do honorable space battle with anyone, because you'd be upset when 10 neutral guardians landed. If you would like to see me explode you'll have to arrange for it to happen on your own (protip: I am often suspect flagged 50km off a certain stargate).
Good god, what a tragic mentality....we see this all the time in low sec. "Dear god, two guys in frigates just showed up in system! T3s ENGAGE!"
Had a guy in local ask me if I was chasing him through belts (I was). He was in a T3D, me in a Fed Navy Comet. Flat out refused to fight me, begged me to jump one system over into null to duel. Yeah right, so I can get blobbed by your 10 man gate camp? It was so sad and pathetic. Sad part is if he was in any way a decent pilot he would have won that fight. I just wanted to fight because it's fun.
Another time, jumped into low sec in a T3. One guy in system, also in a T3. He promptly re-ships into a carrier. I asked him what if I brought out my carrier, would he have jumped his dreadnought in?
This "I crunched the numbers and I have a 0.0003% chance of losing so I won't fight" nerd excel crap is hilarious. Just undock and fight damnit. Show you have some balls. |
Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6421
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Posted - 2015.07.21 21:19:26 -
[85] - Quote
Sasha Nyemtsov wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:Carrie-Anne Moss wrote:Ccp runs ccp. And ccp said newbs that get blown early have drastically higher retention rates. Not quite, but nice try. Misunderstanding statistics doesn't change what they mean. Troll better. Might I just poke my head around the door here? I can't find the actual place, but it occurred during Fan Fest 2015 and is reported on James' blog, here. Gosh, I do hope that link works, I'm terrible at this. There's a screen cap of an image used by CCP in a presentation, maybe half-way down the page. Just in case my skills are lacking, the words accompanying the image are (clearly from CCP hf): "We were surprised... What about retention though? Backwards. People who die play longer. <1% of account cancellations cite ship loss or harassment" The image is imprinted with the CCP logo. I don't know how many ways you can slice such a bald admission. Yeah, in full they stated that with a sample of 80,000 users: 85.5% of users donGÇÖt die within their first 15 days 13.5% of users die legally within their first 15 days 1% of users essentially get ganked within their first 15 days
They also stated that the 1% had better retention than the 13.5, which in turn had better retention than 85.5%. What people took that to mean is Dying = higher retention. But then we have to go back to what I said in an earlier post in this thread: Correlation does not imply causation.
There are many reasons for this to exist. For example, why did the 13.5% of players die legally? Maybe they joined friends in wardec corps or maybe they jumped straight into null. The act of dying is not necessarily what caused them to stay, and it is in fact highly likely that what caused them to stay is simply the same thing that caused them to die: social involvement.
Suggesting that these stats somehow prove that being shot causes retention is very much wishful thinking.
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Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
2841
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 21:21:55 -
[86] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:And making hisec "more dangerous" only encourages more neckbeards with inferiority complexes to feel powerful by blapping rookies. Mechanics wouldn't be needed to make people safer if these types of people didn't spend every waking moment figuring out the best way to farm easy targets purely to make the player sad and harvest their tears.
It is a matter of fact that this type of thing is hugely uncommon because new players frankly aren't worthwhile targets for basically anything because they don't fly anything worth going out of your way to blow up unless you also happen to be a newbie.
This entire argument is a massive and totally absurd appeal to emotion and it's blatantly apparent from your tone. You have in your head the erroneous notion that there are massive quantities of newbies being mercilessly exploded in highsec and that they need to be saved or else they will quit the game. This is not the case, there is literally zero evidence supporting that this is the case and perhaps if you based your idea of what highsec PVP consists of on anything at all other than your disdain for highsec PVPers perhaps you'd know that.
You are wrong, demonstrably so and by advocating for measures that inhibit highsec PVP the only people you help are experienced players in highsec who want to grind isk in perfect safety. |
Sasha Nyemtsov
Systems Administration and Control
138
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Posted - 2015.07.21 21:30:06 -
[87] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Sasha Nyemtsov wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:Carrie-Anne Moss wrote:Ccp runs ccp. And ccp said newbs that get blown early have drastically higher retention rates. Not quite, but nice try. Misunderstanding statistics doesn't change what they mean. Troll better. Might I just poke my head around the door here? I can't find the actual place, but it occurred during Fan Fest 2015 and is reported on James' blog, here. Gosh, I do hope that link works, I'm terrible at this. There's a screen cap of an image used by CCP in a presentation, maybe half-way down the page. Just in case my skills are lacking, the words accompanying the image are (clearly from CCP hf): "We were surprised... What about retention though? Backwards. People who die play longer. <1% of account cancellations cite ship loss or harassment" The image is imprinted with the CCP logo. I don't know how many ways you can slice such a bald admission. Yeah, in full they stated that with a sample of 80,000 users: 85.5% of users donGÇÖt die within their first 15 days 13.5% of users die legally within their first 15 days 1% of users essentially get ganked within their first 15 days They also stated that the 1% had better retention than the 13.5, which in turn had better retention than 85.5%. What people took that to mean is Dying = higher retention. But then we have to go back to what I said in an earlier post in this thread: Correlation does not imply causation. There are many reasons for this to exist. For example, why did the 13.5% of players die legally? Maybe they joined friends in wardec corps or maybe they jumped straight into null. The act of dying is not necessarily what caused them to stay, and it is in fact highly likely that what caused them to stay is simply the same thing that caused them to die: social involvement. Suggesting that these stats somehow prove that being shot causes retention is very much wishful thinking.
I may have misconstrued your meaning, Lucas.
I invite you to state succinctly and without explanation or expansion exactly what it is about the current state of Highsec that disappoints you?
www.minerbumping.com
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6421
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 21:30:17 -
[88] - Quote
Vimsy Vortis wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:And making hisec "more dangerous" only encourages more neckbeards with inferiority complexes to feel powerful by blapping rookies. Mechanics wouldn't be needed to make people safer if these types of people didn't spend every waking moment figuring out the best way to farm easy targets purely to make the player sad and harvest their tears. It is a matter of fact that this type of thing is hugely uncommon because new players frankly aren't worthwhile targets for basically anything because they don't fly anything worth going out of your way to blow up unless you also happen to be a newbie. Think about what you are saying. It's uncommon because new players aren't worthwhile targets. Now imagine if concord were removed. Now they are worthwhile targets, because there's no reason not to shoot them. What makes them not worthwhile is the fact that they are mechanically safer. take away that safety and you lower the bar for what constitutes a worthwhile kill.
Vimsy Vortis wrote:This entire argument is a massive and totally absurd appeal to emotion and it's blatantly apparent from your tone. You have in your head the erroneous notion that there are massive quantities of newbies being mercilessly exploded in highsec and that they need to be saved or else they will quit the game. This is not the case, there is literally zero evidence supporting that this is the case and perhaps if you based your idea of what highsec PVP consists of on anything at all other than your disdain for highsec PVPers perhaps you'd know that. No it's not, and at no point have I claimed there are massive quantities of newbies being mercilessly exploded. Once again the "grr carebears" crowd has to misrepresent the opposing point of view toe be able to argue it. Simply put, highsec aggression is already far to easy and low risk and should be balanced like any other mechanic. Wardecs will be before too long, I guarantee it. The fact that highsec corps that aren't purely pvp focussed aren't feasible is ridiculous. It's a section of space designed to be safe, get over the fact that it's safe.
Vimsy Vortis wrote:You are wrong, demonstrably so and by advocating for measures that inhibit highsec PVP the only people you help are experienced players in highsec who want to grind isk in perfect safety. By advocating measures that buff highsec PvP, the only people you help are risk averse PvP carebears who refuse to engage unless they have a 99% chance of winning. Grow a pair.
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Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6421
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 21:31:14 -
[89] - Quote
Sasha Nyemtsov wrote:I may have misconstrued your meaning, Lucas.
I invite you to state succinctly and without explanation or expansion exactly what it is about the current state of Highsec that disappoints you? https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5911120#post5911120
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
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Sasha Nyemtsov
Systems Administration and Control
138
|
Posted - 2015.07.21 21:34:39 -
[90] - Quote
Tsk, Lucas, that is hardly succinct.
www.minerbumping.com
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