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Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
915
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Posted - 2015.07.25 05:13:32 -
[1] - Quote
I am addressing here and want your opinion on ship useless bonus
7.5% projectile rof.
Nobody use this ship as gun platform and for very simple reasons
It cant fit 1400mm howitzers
it cant fit 1200mm howitzers
lol dps even if you manage to fit them no ALPHA due to lack of any dmg bonus,all horrible arty drawback still present but 0 gain
AC dmg output under 500DPS up to 3km
Cruises dmg output over 500DPS up to to 140km
This ship have useless bonus my proposal is to remove it completely in favor of
5% to drones/sentry's optimal and tracking per lvl totaling 25% buff at lvl 5 over non bonused drones.
keep in mind this is not t2 cruiser hull and dmg is not changed.
Aim is to push hull deeper in drone meta.
Or alternately build your own fleet typhoon what would you put in place of AC rof? |
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
1340
|
Posted - 2015.07.25 06:16:54 -
[2] - Quote
a legacy bonus from when the phoon had split weapons. that said it is indeed a not great projectile boat, seems they are giving the tempest that role.
a new bonus probably isn't a bad idea.
@ChainsawPlankto
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Kalihira
Ultramar Independent Contracting
36
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Posted - 2015.07.25 08:54:23 -
[3] - Quote
A: dont pull numbers out of your ass. ACs will pull 700dps with 2 T2 gyros. B: we dont need more droneboats. If you want sentries, get a dominix C: yes, ACs are underpowered, but thats the weapon systems fault, not the phoon fleets D: It doesnt need arties, as you implicate in your post, its mainly a misssile boat, and its quite good at that. Its probably the best RHML platform out there.
I do agree that the bonus is rather redundant. In a case like this, people will allways choose the weapon system that performs best on the hull, in this case, missiles. I would be very carefull though, on what you would change the bonus to. I allready performs quite well on a single bonus. I rather see a utility bonus on there (warpspeed, agility, targeting range, cap recharge?) |
Blackfeathers
Unholy Knights of Cthulhu Test Alliance Please Ignore
26
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Posted - 2015.07.25 10:16:17 -
[4] - Quote
I kinda like the flavour of the split weapons systems on this one. You don't need to fly it - but people flew phoons back before they changed em, so it must have a use. I guess? No idea what it would be though. |
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
1220
|
Posted - 2015.07.25 12:17:08 -
[5] - Quote
Fleet phoon is just fine, it easily runs 900-1k dps rapid heavies, don't need to put drone bonuses next to that. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16437
|
Posted - 2015.07.25 12:36:30 -
[6] - Quote
OP wants to fly the rattlesnake.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
915
|
Posted - 2015.07.25 12:53:15 -
[7] - Quote
Quote:A: dont pull numbers out of your ass. ACs will pull 700dps with 2 T2 gyros
More constructive comments please don't call me a liar just because you used 2 dmg mod to cook the numbers to have a talking back point.
Quote: B: we dont need more droneboats. If you want sentries, get a dominix
"we"? please explain,further more it will be no more drone boat that is not already it will just be better at it.other drone boats in class are armagedon and dominix....hardly a crowded place don't you agree?
Can you explain reasoning behind "get a dominix" is it stated somewhere by CCP it should be only drone platform(it already isnt)?
Quote:C: yes, ACs are underpowered, but thats the weapon systems fault, not the phoon fleets
This is true and this is not thread about AC and it doesn't change how useless this bonus is on this hull.
Quote:It doesnt need arties, as you implicate in your post, its mainly a misssile boat, and its quite good at that. Its probably the best RHML platform out there.
I didnt implicated anything i used numbers to show it cant fit any long range gun that it have bonuses to so needing it or not it cant do it.all other Minmatar battleships can not because they are build to be Artillery boats but because they are build right.
Il just remind you that ship have two identical bonuses and yet is missile boat and it serves as excuse for it to be bad at it second bonus?
Quote:I do agree that the bonus is rather redundant
I would be very carefull though, on what you would change the bonus to. I allready performs quite well on a single bonus. I rather see a utility bonus on there (warpspeed, agility, targeting range, cap recharge?)
Wait you do?
Take your pick it is thread for removing useless bonus with another one warpspeed is angel thing agility target range and cap recharges can be built in hull and are not very good way to replace ship bonus imo.
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Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
915
|
Posted - 2015.07.25 13:01:54 -
[8] - Quote
Quote:Fleet phoon is just fine, it easily runs 900-1k dps rapid heavies, don't need to put drone bonuses next to that.
Any idea what to squeeze in instead of projectile boni?or just leave it useless as is?
Quote:OP wants to fly the rattlesnake.
No. |
Lex Fenalin
Timorem Mortis
0
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Posted - 2015.07.25 15:24:57 -
[9] - Quote
Mina Sebiestar wrote:More constructive comments please don't call me a liar just because you used 2 dmg mod to cook the numbers to have a talking back point. Hes not calling you a liar, hes calling you an idiot. Maelstrom also provides 500 DPS with no damage mods, so on the subject of ass numbers - where exactly are yours coming from?
Quote:"we"? please explain,further more it will be no more drone boat that is not already it will just be better at it.other drone boats in class are armagedon and dominix....hardly a crowded place don't you agree?
Can you explain reasoning behind "get a dominix" is it stated somewhere by CCP it should be only drone platform(it already isnt)? There is a massive list of efficient drone boats out there - see CCP fozzies list of the top damage dealing ships in their classes. Every one is a drone boat. We dont need more drone boats, just use the OP ones already there.
Quote:This is true and this is not thread about AC and it doesn't change how useless this bonus is on this hull. So because you cant see a use for the bonus means the bonus is useless? Y'all evidently aint familiar with the 13-1400 DPS the phoon fleet is currently capable of.
Quote:I didnt implicated anything i used numbers to show it cant fit any long range gun that it have bonuses to so needing it or not it cant do it.all other Minmatar battleships can not because they are build to be Artillery boats but because they are build right. You didnt actually use any numbers, you just said 'it cant do this'. You are right, it does have minor fitting issues for artillery - but many ships do, artillery aren't the easiest things to fit.
Quote:Il just remind you that ship have two identical bonuses and yet is missile boat and it serves as excuse for it to be bad at it second bonus? I wouldnt say 1400 DPS was bad.
All in all I rate your troll thread as a 3/10
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Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
916
|
Posted - 2015.07.25 15:37:55 -
[10] - Quote
Mael provide 500dps w 2x time alpha stop trolling hi used 2 dmg mods to buff his dmg statement while I did not that is redicilous.
Fleet photon already is semi drone boat my proposal don't change that nor it is set in stone.
Not being able to use any arty gun without any other mod on ship is not minor...maybe in you little part of a world.
Your rating is not why I posted this thread deal with fact ppl will post ideas how to change us less stuff ragardless did you think of it this way or another also mind langauge no reason to be mad. |
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RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
1102
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Posted - 2015.07.25 16:07:08 -
[11] - Quote
Typhoon is not just a battle ship, it's a MINMATAR battle ship. Minmatar is not a drone based race on any level of the game. You have other races that specialize in drones, Fly one of those if you want drones. Minmatar already has an Arty BS platform. The Typhoon is best flown up close and personal. Speed and utility slots. Armor tank or shield tank, versatility is what makes it a great ship. Pretty sure I get 1200 + DPS from a basic fit Torp Typhoon. It's a BS that can launch 5 large drones. That does not make it a drone boat. Same for a Navy Mega or a Navy Geddon.
Also: How can you argue about DPS application, and act like damage modules shouldn't be mounted?
I mean, if you're trying to trick your little sister or something, then carry on. But most people who fly battle ships in EVE are going to be veteran players and grown men. Don't try to bull$hit them with tricks of numbers. You might have a valid point about the bonus. Tricks will water down your argument until it's worthless. |
Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
917
|
Posted - 2015.07.25 16:21:18 -
[12] - Quote
I used base dmg not bothering to mess with eft further how is that "tricks".
Put 2 BCU II in and than compare it it is same difference I don't get why is this an issue?
What 1200 dps torp phoon remark have to do with bad projectile bonus on a fleet issue phoon?
Also please if you can't comment like normal person and this thread is ticking you off in a bad way don't do it to your self,my sister do not play eve nor need to be tricked about eft numbers. |
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
1102
|
Posted - 2015.07.25 17:49:15 -
[13] - Quote
Mina Sebiestar wrote:I used base dmg not bothering to mess with eft further how is that "tricks".
Put 2 BCU II in and than compare it it is same difference I don't get why is this an issue?
What 1200 dps torp phoon remark have to do with bad projectile bonus on a fleet issue phoon?
Also please if you can't comment like normal person and this thread is ticking you off in a bad way don't do it to your self,my sister do not play eve nor need to be tricked about eft numbers.
Nobody fits a ship for base damage. Even a drone boat will have ****** base damage if you fit the wrong drones and no damage mods. You fit a ship to take advantage of its best strengths, or you fly a ship that has particular roles and useage.
Your post wasn't just about the ROF bonus, it suggested a drone bonus too. The Torp comment is relative, because people fit Typhoons with missiles and torps. If you gave it any other bonus it could become overpowered, unless you changed the whole ship. I for 1, don't try to fly the Phoon as drone platform, and I never want to.
I am commenting like a normal person.
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Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
917
|
Posted - 2015.07.25 18:01:59 -
[14] - Quote
Yes thank you
i went for base dmg because no matter what amount of gyros used dps range, projection and amount will be lower compared to other option,putting 2 gyros to gain 700dps seemed so irrelevant point still stands.
Better drone projection in my mind did not made this ship drone boat but i really don't have an issue with those bonuses be discarded as not good as long as anyone throw in something more balanced/viable?
Or is general feeling that ship just shouldn't be touched i cant help but feel that particular bonus is a waste? |
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
1344
|
Posted - 2015.07.25 18:31:28 -
[15] - Quote
Blackfeathers wrote:I kinda like the flavour of the split weapons systems on this one. You don't need to fly it - but people flew phoons back before they changed em, so it must have a use. I guess? No idea what it would be though.
yea with 4 launchers and 4 nos, and nanoed out the wazoo! Nanos got nerfed, nos got nerfed, don't think anyone flew a phoon for years. maybe some people did but they would have been better off flying just about anything else.
@ChainsawPlankto
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Uriam Khanid
New Machinarium Corporation
6
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Posted - 2015.07.25 20:08:10 -
[16] - Quote
I am addressing here and want your opinion on ship useless bonus 7.5% projectile rof - why you think it's useless??? Nobody use this ship as gun platform and for very simple reasons - you is wrong, very much
It cant fit 1400mm howitzers - agree it cant fit 1200mm howitzers - it can fit 1200 mm
AC dmg output under 500DPS up to 3km - AC dmg output up to 75 km and AC does more damage than 1200mm (3k alpha/7c(1200) vs 1,7k alpha/2,6c(800)) Cruises dmg output over 500DPS up to to 140km - RHML do same dmg up to 70 km, but no problems with frigs
two different bonuses for TyFI what make this ship great. you get missile, artillery or drone boat. if you have trouble with ship, ask community for help.
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Orlacc
901
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Posted - 2015.07.25 20:33:41 -
[17] - Quote
Op, there are many BS hulls to choose from. Another drone boat is not needed. And in PVE, Arties are for scrubs anyhow.
"Measure Twice, Cut Once."
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pushdogg
Tell Your Mum To Call Me Get Off My Lawn
36
|
Posted - 2015.07.25 21:42:18 -
[18] - Quote
everyone has pitchforks out for the OP....and im sure i dont have to look at kb's to see that most of you dont fly fleet phoons...but it seems all of you are expert in fleet phoon eft pvp/pve.
personally i would like to see an application bonus...just like the typhoon...only applied to hml's too.
i too think a drone bonus would be a bit of a stretch but not enough to rage.
really after the tempest buff.....it seems like the phoon and tempest do it better than their fleet variants....although more slots do count for something. still better price and insurance.
ill bet most of you have never even pvp'd in a minmatar bs. |
Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
917
|
Posted - 2015.07.25 21:51:13 -
[19] - Quote
Quote: t cant fit 1200mm howitzers - it can fit 1200 mm i trust you can provide killboard link that shows 1200mm pvp setup works so i can drop this matter all together i would appreciate that.
Quote:AC dmg output under 500DPS up to 3km - AC dmg output up to 75
can you please link killboard (or similar sourse) so i can see this ship pvp fit that have kills under it belt more than once in a blue moon so i can drop this matter all together i trust you know what you speak off?
i am especially interested in dmg at 75km.
Quote:Cruises dmg output over 500DPS up to to 140km - RHML do same dmg up to 70 km, but no problems with frigs
I know your point?
Quote:Op, there are many BS hulls to choose from. Another drone boat is not needed. And in PVE, Arties are for scrubs anyhow
you are noise |
Thron Legacy
White Zulu Scorpion Federation
4
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Posted - 2015.07.26 01:36:53 -
[20] - Quote
it may deal more dmg with cruise, but large AC+ 2 webs deal more dmg against a cruiser than cruise ever will /thread |
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16442
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Posted - 2015.07.26 05:17:08 -
[21] - Quote
Mina Sebiestar wrote:Quote:OP wants to fly the rattlesnake. No.
Yes, you are demanding the same setup as a rattlesnake, aka, done/missile bonus.
Im also looking at a 1500 m/s phoon fleet issue that gets 525 dps while using titanium sabot, over 800 when you add on the drones. Your numbers are wrong.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
1222
|
Posted - 2015.07.26 10:36:45 -
[22] - Quote
OP is intentionally dense it seems.
Typhoon - wtfomg fast nano BS with rapid heavies (albeit RoF bonused), one heavy neut and cut-down dronebay Typhoon Fleet - wtfomg fast nano BS with ridiculous base hp and rapid heavies (damage bonused ), heavy neut+smartbomb or two neuts and full drone bandwidth + full flights of praetors, valks and ec-300s/acolytes.
Typhoon has roughly 40k damage a clip, fleet phoon has roughly 55k a clip, quite a difference. Typhoon afaik ends up with some 5-7k armor hp depending on how throwing in crash/exile went for you, while a fleet phoon can have 9k-11k.
Since OP is claiming expert on fleet phoon pvp, explaining the advantages of two heavy utilities is not necessary.
-
The two bonuses were never meant to be used in conjunction, they were meant to be sufficiently strong to allow for both styles albeit mutually exclusive. The question to replace the turret bonus is frankly the same as saying *I like missile fleet scythe better, pls remove it's turret-variation and give me more damage bonus for missiles* - no, doesn't work like that.
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Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
917
|
Posted - 2015.07.26 14:06:48 -
[23] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Mina Sebiestar wrote:Quote:OP wants to fly the rattlesnake. No. Yes, you are demanding the same setup as a rattlesnake, aka, done/missile bonus. Im also looking at a 1500 m/s phoon fleet issue that gets 525 dps while using titanium sabot, over 800 when you add on the drones. Your numbers are wrong.
I am not demanding anything.
Rattle and typhoon are 2 different ships from a get go one is tanky battleship with roughly 2/3 dmg coming from super buffed dmg boosted drones
Other one is missile boat with useless projectile bonus that even with my proposal wouldn't be remotely similar to rattlesnake.
Be kind and share 800dps faction battleship fit i want to see its glory.
Quote:The two bonuses were never meant to be used in conjunction, they were meant to be sufficiently strong to allow for both styles albeit mutually exclusive. The question to replace the turret bonus is frankly the same as saying *I like missile fleet scythe better, pls remove it's turret-variation and give me more damage bonus for missiles* - no, doesn't work like that.
there is nothing sufficiently strong about projectile bonus only thing it is used for it seems is as talking point of imaginary AC fittings that are not and will not be used in game.
compare that to missile bonus that as you are confirming your self can be used with great success with ANY missile weapon system for either PVE or PVP.
never did i asked for more missile bonus or more drone dmg bonus and i said that is my option on it asked for other ppl to do so i must be dense.
Useless bonus is useless. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16443
|
Posted - 2015.07.26 14:34:01 -
[24] - Quote
Mina Sebiestar wrote:
I am not demanding anything.
Rattle and typhoon are 2 different ships from a get go one is tanky battleship with roughly 2/3 dmg coming from super buffed dmg boosted drones
Other one is missile boat with useless projectile bonus that even with my proposal wouldn't be remotely similar to rattlesnake.
With your idea you get two BS with bonused missiles and drones.
Mina Sebiestar wrote: Be kind and share 800dps faction battleship fit i want to see its glory.
[Typhoon Fleet Issue, Typhoon Fleet Issue fit]
Damage Control II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Tracking Enhancer II
500MN Quad LiF Restrained Microwarpdrive Warp Disruptor II Large Shield Extender II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Stasis Webifier II
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet Titanium Sabot L 800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet Titanium Sabot L 800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet Titanium Sabot L 800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet Titanium Sabot L 800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet Titanium Sabot L 800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet Titanium Sabot L Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I Entosis Link II
Large Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I Large Core Defense Field Extender I Large Core Defense Field Extender I
Ogre II x5 Warrior II x5 Warrior II x5 Warrior II x5
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
917
|
Posted - 2015.07.26 16:17:49 -
[25] - Quote
what a joke
Quote:With your idea you get two BS with bonused missiles and drones.
yes god forbid and would not make em remotely similar |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
16446
|
Posted - 2015.07.26 17:07:01 -
[26] - Quote
Mina Sebiestar wrote:what a joke
Going to have to explain your reasoning for this comment.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
917
|
Posted - 2015.07.26 19:24:00 -
[27] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Mina Sebiestar wrote:what a joke
Going to have to explain your reasoning for this comment.
wouldn't be caught dead in it it offers nothing over missile version 3gyros faction battleship to deliver 500dps at pathetic range crap tank cant even fit 2 neuts
Cant brawl cant kite cant tank bad all rounder that cant hold a candle to missile version what is it for anyway
Nice entosis link |
Stitch Kaneland
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
442
|
Posted - 2015.07.26 19:43:37 -
[28] - Quote
The artillery side of things leaves a bit to be desired. But, every arty ship is going to be tight, no way around that, so you'd need a 3% implant to use it. If you think outside the box, you can come up with gang/fleet type fits like this:
[Typhoon Fleet Issue, MJD Arty spider tank] Reactor Control Unit II Damage Control II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II 1600mm Rolled Tungsten Compact Plates
Large Micro Jump Drive Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script Heavy Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 800 Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Script
1200mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L 1200mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L 1200mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L 1200mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L 1200mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L 1200mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L Large 'Solace' Remote Armor Repairer Large 'Solace' Remote Armor Repairer
Large Ancillary Current Router I Large Trimark Armor Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Bouncer II x5
If you had a group of these, MJD'n around the battlefield, you could pop things fairly quickly. Its got the same alpha as a 720 cane, but shoots faster, and has better ranges. With the RR, it means logi doesn't need to follow you when you MJD. Just rep each other. You also get the benefit of instant volley with artillery, where as cruise or heavies has a delay. Not good in fleet engagements where your enemy can catch reps. Not to mention, missiles need mods for application, turrets you just need transversal.
7.7s RoF, or 6.5 RoF with heat, using artillery. Those numbers are close to what MEDIUM 650 artillery does on a hurricane, at least in terms of RoF.
I found a use for the arty version in about 10minutes. Just because you can't think of a scenario where arty works, doesn't mean they don't exist. Is a solo arty kiter going to viable? No, probably will never work. But a solo a/c kite ship would work very similar to a pest, using the 2 heavy neuts to keep tackle off and popping things out between 20-60km.
Not to mention, minmatar and drones? No. Lets not have a race that needs to train 3 separate weapon systems to use all their ships well.
Currently, i can do 900-1200dps in my RHML FI phoon, then you want drone bonuses thrown in too? It will MURDER everything in scram range. Not to mention 2 heavy neuts will screw over anything below BS size, that decides to get within point range. Not only will someone be held down by dual webs, dual neuts, a TP, and 1200 dps of RHML fury, but then they will also have to compete against ogre's with tracking and optimal bonuses. Sounds perfectly balanced.
Yes, I use Typhoon FI's quite regularly, they are one of the best navy BS at the moment. Regardless of if you think the "gun" trait is useless, if you give it another bonus to compliment missiles or another weapon system, it will be horrible unbalanced.
Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role
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RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
1105
|
Posted - 2015.07.26 19:58:05 -
[29] - Quote
Baltecs fit does have something to offer.
Minmatar BS with guns and shield tank. It's fast and has better tank than the Tempest. Cheaper than a Mael. It is a close range ship that can get in and out as needed. Great for BS and BC engagements. Some pilots may not have Missile skills and this would let them join a shield fleet with minimum skilling. I don't need to EFT it to know it does way more than 500 DPS. |
Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
917
|
Posted - 2015.07.26 20:15:43 -
[30] - Quote
@ stitch
i believe basic tempest would be more viable for what you EFTed there first would be the cost and instant and multiple times higher alpha not to mention 1400mm fits
you are doing sub 500DPS at 30km further out it start drop to really low numbers without alpha i struggle to justify why would you do that in a first place but hey game is supposedly to be fun too what the hell...at least you have decent tank on it and RR.
drones are mandatory to train if you are serious about your self.
[Quote:they will also have to compete against ogre's with tracking and optimal bonuses. Sounds perfectly balanced.
This actually sound right RHML phoon is powerhouse on its own and it is not like i did not pointed out that drone is just my opinion however projectile bonus is redundant and obsolete. don't get me wrong i like to EFT stuff too but nobody in right mind don't fly it in AC/or Arty variant i believe your self included,there is no point. |
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