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Mephiztopheleze
Republic University Minmatar Republic
104
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Posted - 2015.08.03 01:03:47 -
[1] - Quote
Right now, with the Phoebe jump changes, Alliance Jump Bridges are an expensive, difficult to maintain network used mostly for shuttling Industrial haulers around. Including shuttling around anti-entosis ships in a hauler, just so you don't blow up your fatigue responding to the latest round of trollceptors.
I've stashed a dozen or so Griffins around, one at each end of every JB in my alliance and I head there in a hauler, reship and, well, you know what comes next.
How about adding a fatigue reduction mechanism for using your own alliance's jump bridges? Not all *Blue* bridges, just your Alliance ones. 50% or so would make using this alliance infrastructure far more palatable.
For the, not insignificant, costs involved with setting up and maintaining a JB network, there needs to be some hard benefits for sov ownership.
Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze
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ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Snuffed Out
8445
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Posted - 2015.08.03 01:14:32 -
[2] - Quote
tldr; "Please CCP... unnerf jump fatigue so I can powerproject across my own territory more easily!"
No. The whole point of Jump Fatigue applying to Jump Bridges in the same way it applies to capitals was to make defending large areas of territory a hassle!
Let me repeat and rephrase that; it is supposed to be a pain in the ass to control an area large enough to warrant a Jump Bridge Network.
Either spread your forces and industrial base out more so that you can defend more evenly... or reduce your territory to make defense easier.
And to counter your inevitable question of, "well... what is the point of having Jump Bridges if they have such high costs and a penalty?"...
Jump Bridges allow you to bypass stargates and cover a large area in one go... both of which provide a high degree of safety and mobility. They still do just this... which gives them a purpose and benefit. You are just too used to the way they were and are having difficulty adjusting.
How did you Veterans start?
The Skillpoint System and You
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Mephiztopheleze
Republic University Minmatar Republic
104
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Posted - 2015.08.03 01:16:41 -
[3] - Quote
please note: I'm talking about your own alliance jump bridges, NOT all jump bridges you have standings to use.
Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze
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ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Snuffed Out
8445
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Posted - 2015.08.03 01:40:24 -
[4] - Quote
And what I said applies to both.
How did you Veterans start?
The Skillpoint System and You
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Madd Adda
103
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Posted - 2015.08.03 01:45:46 -
[5] - Quote
Mephiztopheleze wrote:please note: I'm talking about your own alliance jump bridges, NOT all jump bridges you have standings to use.
so. Null sec corps drop their alliances and join a jump bridge network to peddle around null. once that's done they drop the alliance and rejoin their old alliances and continue on their way. This won't be abused, not at all.
Carebear extraordinaire
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Mephiztopheleze
Republic University Minmatar Republic
104
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Posted - 2015.08.03 02:14:52 -
[6] - Quote
Madd Adda wrote:Mephiztopheleze wrote:please note: I'm talking about your own alliance jump bridges, NOT all jump bridges you have standings to use. so. Null sec corps drop their alliances and join a jump bridge network to peddle around null. once that's done they drop the alliance and rejoin their old alliances and continue on their way. This won't be abused, not at all.
so whack a ~24-48 hour timer on being able to switch alliances?
for all the effort and expense of jump bridges, getting 45mins of fatigue for 'saving' ~4-6 jumps isn't all that great of a deal. especially not if you already have the space aids.
Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze
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ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Snuffed Out
8447
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Posted - 2015.08.03 03:42:28 -
[7] - Quote
Mephiztopheleze wrote:Madd Adda wrote:Mephiztopheleze wrote:please note: I'm talking about your own alliance jump bridges, NOT all jump bridges you have standings to use. so. Null sec corps drop their alliances and join a jump bridge network to peddle around null. once that's done they drop the alliance and rejoin their old alliances and continue on their way. This won't be abused, not at all. so whack a ~24-48 hour timer on being able to switch alliances? for all the effort and expense of jump bridges, getting 45mins of fatigue for 'saving' ~4-6 jumps isn't all that great of a deal. especially not if you already have the space aids. So why are you still taking the Jump Bridges despite paying for their upkeep and getting "space aids?"
Oh yeah... that's right... safety and high mobility.
The cost and penalty is fine.
If anything... I would have preferred for Jump Bridges to be outright removed from the game.
How did you Veterans start?
The Skillpoint System and You
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FT Diomedes
The Graduates Get Off My Lawn
1473
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Posted - 2015.08.03 03:44:44 -
[8] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:Mephiztopheleze wrote:Madd Adda wrote:Mephiztopheleze wrote:please note: I'm talking about your own alliance jump bridges, NOT all jump bridges you have standings to use. so. Null sec corps drop their alliances and join a jump bridge network to peddle around null. once that's done they drop the alliance and rejoin their old alliances and continue on their way. This won't be abused, not at all. so whack a ~24-48 hour timer on being able to switch alliances? for all the effort and expense of jump bridges, getting 45mins of fatigue for 'saving' ~4-6 jumps isn't all that great of a deal. especially not if you already have the space aids. So why are you still taking the Jump Bridges despite paying for their upkeep and getting "space aids?" Oh yeah... that's right... safety and high mobility. The cost and penalty is fine. If anything... I would have preferred for Jump Bridges to be outright removed from the game.
See, using the occasional jump bridge is fine. If people don't think they are worth the cost, they can simply stop using them. I'm glad it is no longer a "no brainer" decision, but they do not need to be removed completely.
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. So, why do I post here?
I'm stubborn.
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Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
410
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Posted - 2015.08.03 13:57:32 -
[9] - Quote
People always complain about the anti-gankers. I have seen more complaints about the jump range limits and the jump fatigue since it was released than I have about further nerfs to ganking. Wonder which group is the biggest complainers here now?
So my take on this is working as intended. See the whole idea behind the limits was to reduce ALL of your jump movement capabilities and therefore limit power projection at all levels and across all ship classes.
Something the ganking community always levels at their targets applies here as well. Adapt or quit. Hell the gankers themselves have had to adapt to changes in the game over the years why do you think you should be special and not have to? |
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
1951
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Posted - 2015.08.03 14:40:46 -
[10] - Quote
Let me say up front that I disagree with the OP in general. The whole point of the travel changes was to make exactly what you are describing (moving quickly and safely between distant points using bridges or jump drives) hard to do.
However, I thought about this a bit and I think he may be on to something, but not for the reasons he thinks.
One of the goals of both the Phoebe travel changes and the recent sov changes is to make it harder for large coalitions of alliances to pool their resources and collectively hold a large region of space. Both of these changes highly incentivize alliances to hold smaller chunks of territory in a more independent manner. While large coalitions can still exist, it's now more beneficial to be a coalition of equals, each holding sov over smaller areas, instead of one alliance holding all of the territory and other coalition members simply living there.
Now, back to the OP. If there were a small reduction in jump fatigue for using jump bridges owned by your own alliance, it seems like that would further the goal of encouraging individual alliances to stand on their own instead of relying on coalition allies to back them up. Having said that, I would put two restrictions on this:
1. The benefit would have to be much smaller than the OP was discussing. The 50% reduction he mentioned is simply too much. I think on the order of 10% max reduction. Enough to be a benefit, but not really enough to extend power projection.
2. The benefit would have to depend on how well established the alliance is by basing it off of one of the sov indexes. For sake of argument, assume it would be linked to the military index. For each level of military index, alliance members would receive a 2% reduction, yielding a max reduction of 10%.
Again, for the purpose of general jump bridge use, I think the current limits are fine and don't need a change. However, I do see this as a possible mechanism to offer a further, albeit slight, benefit to individual alliances holding their own sov without outside assistance as well as offering a further incentive to develop the indices of the territory you hold.
Thoughts?
Relatively Notorious By Association
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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1288
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Posted - 2015.08.03 15:23:01 -
[11] - Quote
Wouldn't that just mean I could hold sov in the jumb bridge chain of my choosing? Grab the key systems for mobility, slap a sov sticker on them, install jump bridge and bypass space aids?
I like the idea of getting benefits from your own stuffs, but this seems abusable. Instead of holding a constellation would folks just hold sov on the easy wonking highway?
basis = sound abusablity = seems high
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6464
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Posted - 2015.08.03 16:44:31 -
[12] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:No. The whole point of Jump Fatigue applying to Jump Bridges in the same way it applies to capitals was to make defending large areas of territory a hassle! It's fairly well established that isn't what it's done though. Defense is pretty easy, you just stash ships all over and just fly interceptors to them. What the fatigue changes did more was prevent people wanting to attack, since jumping into enemy territory is far more of a risk as defenders can more quickly get reinforcements in. That's pretty much why null is stagnating as it is.
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Billy Bojangle
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
3
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Posted - 2015.08.03 17:29:32 -
[13] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:It's fairly well established that isn't what it's done though. With the obvious exception of the OP, who clearly didn't get this memo.
Lucas Kell wrote:Defense is pretty easy, you just stash ships all over and just fly interceptors to them. Sounds like he did that and was unsatisfied with the results.
Lucas Kell wrote: What the fatigue changes did more was prevent people wanting to attack, since jumping into enemy territory is far more of a risk as defenders can more quickly get reinforcements in.
Oh, as opposed to before where the attackers were jumping into enemy territory which could be defended from a world away at the drop of a hat? Get real man, the defender advantage has always been there in that, the defender has all his assets and pilots there to defend where the attacker has to bus in anything they're going to need. This didn't change, all that changed was that attackers and defenders both find it hard to prey on the other side of the map.
Lucas Kell wrote:That's pretty much why null is stagnating as it is. Actually it's stagnant because nobody wants to reset and attack their potential targets closer to home and that's the same problem we've faced for years under dominion sov as well. Recent changes have actually tried to alleviate this, but you can't lead a horse to water when he's adamant about playing space politician instead of space warlord. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
1200
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Posted - 2015.08.03 17:35:19 -
[14] - Quote
this guy knows that the reduction on haulers and the fact that the JFs still have such a long range is only temporary right?
Fuel block colors? Missiles for Caldari T3? Corp Stasis
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Leto Aramaus
Spiritus Draconis Spaceship Bebop
205
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Posted - 2015.08.03 19:34:29 -
[15] - Quote
Jump bridges are 100% nothing more than player owned stargates, which CCP has been saying they are going to give us soon... I don't see the difference. JBs need to be at towers, and the "new" POSGs will presumably not (because towers won't exist).
So I'm hoping the new structures will come sooner rather than later, and all new mechanics will come with them. For now, leave JBs alone, remove fatigue, remove them from game completely... I don't care either way. Give us the new structures and trash POSs already.
The ever-present "dead horse" thread that lived on both the old and new forums for years may have been removed, but until you actually bury the horse and give us our shiny new motorcyle, CCP... the dead horse lives on our in minds. Get to work.
The UI update we deserve
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Sigras
Conglomo
1048
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Posted - 2015.08.03 23:03:12 -
[16] - Quote
Perhaps if you owned less space, or had a higher player to system density, it would be easier to defend. |
Mephiztopheleze
Republic University Minmatar Republic
106
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Posted - 2015.08.04 00:41:55 -
[17] - Quote
Bronson Hughes wrote:Let me say up front that I disagree with the OP in general. The whole point of the travel changes was to make exactly what you are describing (moving quickly and safely between distant points using bridges or jump drives) hard to do.
However, I thought about this a bit and I think he may be on to something, but not for the reasons he thinks.
One of the goals of both the Phoebe travel changes and the recent sov changes is to make it harder for large coalitions of alliances to pool their resources and collectively hold a large region of space.....
I wasn't around much pre-Phoebe and have actually never used any jump bridge without getting fatigue. I thought it was to break the Suddenly: SUPERCAPS! problem of being able to deploy across the entire map in a matter of minutes......
Bronson Hughes wrote:1. The benefit would have to be much smaller than the OP was discussing. The 50% reduction he mentioned is simply too much. I think on the order of 10% max reduction. Enough to be a benefit, but not really enough to extend power projection.
2. The benefit would have to depend on how well established the alliance is by basing it off of one of the sov indexes. For sake of argument, assume it would be linked to the military index. For each level of military index, alliance members would receive a 2% reduction, yielding a max reduction of 10%.
Again, for the purpose of general jump bridge use, I think the current limits are fine and don't need a change. However, I do see this as a possible mechanism to offer a further, albeit slight, benefit to individual alliances holding their own sov without outside assistance as well as offering a further incentive to develop the indices of the territory you hold.
Thoughts?
Jump Bridges can't be used for power projection like Jump Drives can. My tweak would simply allow you to redeploy inside your own space more quickly. You need a decent level of Sov indexes and iHub upgrades before you can install a JB. They require a solid level of organisation to run and some poor sap in a freighter gets to bumble around refuelling them. It just strikes me as a bit heavy handed to give JBs the same penalty as using a Jump Drive.
Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze
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Nyalnara
AdAstra. Beach Club
97
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Posted - 2015.08.04 00:49:55 -
[18] - Quote
Mephiztopheleze wrote:I wasn't around much pre-Phoebe and have actually never used any jump bridge without getting fatigue. I thought it was to break the Suddenly: SUPERCAPS! problem of being able to deploy across the entire map in a matter of minutes......
Suddenly, SUBCAPS! Because yes, there was a bridge end not far away.
Mephiztopheleze wrote:Jump Bridges can't be used for power projection like Jump Drives can. My tweak would simply allow you to redeploy inside your own space more quickly. You need a decent level of Sov indexes and iHub upgrades before you can install a JB. They require a solid level of organisation to run and some poor sap in a freighter gets to bumble around refuelling them. It just strikes me as a bit heavy handed to give JBs the same penalty as using a Jump Drive.
Well, super need parking POSes, which also require fueling. And yes, jump bridges have as much power projection power as jump drives, as long as there is a bridge titan at the jump bridge end point. And ALL decently sized alliance do have bridge titans.
In case of ponies, keep calm and start running.
French half-noob. Founder of [DEUPP]Dark Evil Undead Ponies Productions.
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Mephiztopheleze
Republic University Minmatar Republic
106
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Posted - 2015.08.04 01:09:44 -
[19] - Quote
Nyalnara wrote:And yes, jump bridges have as much power projection power as jump drives, as long as there is a bridge titan at the jump bridge end point. And ALL decently sized alliance do have bridge titans.
I'm not talking about changing how Titan Bridges work. Titan Bridges ARE very much a form of Power Projection.
Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze
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Nyalnara
AdAstra. Beach Club
97
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Posted - 2015.08.04 01:21:31 -
[20] - Quote
Well, POSes bridge networks are good power projection, because if set up correctly, they'll have titan bridges to throw subcap fleets along with cap/super fleets.
In case of ponies, keep calm and start running.
French half-noob. Founder of [DEUPP]Dark Evil Undead Ponies Productions.
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