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Draahk Chimera
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
82
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Posted - 2015.08.04 08:30:46 -
[1] - Quote
Bubble Bobble balance and other B-words.
Q: What is wrong with bubbles the way they are? Why a balance? There are three things wrong as I see it. First they are a passive defence/offence structure that never goes away unless shot at, thus involving no active participation on the part of the players after the actual anchoring. Secondly bubbles are a completely non-granular gameplay. there is a clearly "worst" version -tech 1 small- and a clearly "best" version -tech 2 large. Thirdly they are completely digital in nature, an on-off system, either they give infinite "points" or they are offline.
Thus my suggestion with varied anchoring times, lifespan and number of "points" for different sizes and tech levels. The numbers below might need tweaking for full customer satisfaction but you get the general idea. (Note that I find the "ship-launched" bubbles perfectly fine and thus they are not included.)
Small I - 5km Radius - 1 min anchoring - 5 "points" - 30 min lifespan - Size 20m3 Small II - 7.5km Radius - 2 min anchoring - 6 "points" - 60 min lifespan - Size 50m3
Medium I - 10km Radius - 2 min anchoring - 3 "points" - 90 min lifespan - Size 100m3 Medium II - 15km Radius - 4 min anchoring - 4 "points" - 180 min lifespan- Size 125m3
Large I - 20km Radius - 4 min anchoring - 1 "points" - 240 min lifespan - Size 475m3 Large II - 25km Radius - 8 min anchoring - 2 "points" - 480 min lifespan - Size 525m3
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Lu Ziffer
Jelly Baby Corporation Fidelas Constans
46
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Posted - 2015.08.04 08:48:12 -
[2] - Quote
If you want that nobody disturbs you roam for helpless miners in your non interceptor with bubbles just say so. Do not make me and other read through a wall of nonsense.
If you but 2 points on a large bubble my carrier will refit for that and warp through it. If you do not like bubbles kill them, they have no reinforce timer. |
FT Diomedes
The Graduates Get Off My Lawn
1495
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Posted - 2015.08.04 09:00:58 -
[3] - Quote
I'm not a die-hard fan of anchored bubbles, but the current implementation is better and more interesting than your suggestion.
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. So, why do I post here?
I'm stubborn.
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1728
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Posted - 2015.08.04 09:03:25 -
[4] - Quote
I've said it in every post on this subject so far and it is the simplest way.
Have rats shoot them on gates. This means absentee bubbles are slowly killed in an in game manner. This preserves bubble cages/defensive bubbles on stations/pos/etc. |
Draahk Chimera
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
82
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Posted - 2015.08.04 09:10:40 -
[5] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:I'm not a die-hard fan of anchored bubbles, but the current implementation is better and more interesting than your suggestion. In the interest of civil discourse could you please explain how an 11 year old system with a digital on-off gameplay and no player interaction is "more interesting than a granular system with varied lifespans, "points" and so on?
afkalt wrote:I've said it in every post on this subject so far and it is the simplest way.
Have rats shoot them on gates. This means absentee bubbles are slowly killed in an in game manner. This preserves bubble cages/defensive bubbles on stations/pos/etc. You will have rats spawn on wormholes, outposts, poses, safespots, warp-ins on moons and so on?
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Rivr Luzade
Exclusion Cartel The Kadeshi
1741
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Posted - 2015.08.04 09:17:52 -
[6] - Quote
Draahk Chimera wrote:You will have rats spawn on wormholes, outposts, poses, safespots, warp-ins on moons and so on? They already do on outposts, stations, planets and gates, even on POS sometimes. Sleeper Seekers in particular do that. Having them spawn on WH and more frequently on other grids (except for safe spots) should not be too hard to achieve. Safe spots should stay excluded as bubbles there cannot intercept anything in the first place and removal of such bubbles to catch/trap logged off things should remain in the sole responsibility of players.
Station Tab :: UI Improvement Collective
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1729
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Posted - 2015.08.04 09:18:45 -
[7] - Quote
What part of on gates was unclear?
Gates are the only non optional bottleneck, everything else should be left alone. It'd take a special kind of stupid to try this to a WH. |
Aurure
Krautfleet Goonswarm Federation
2
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Posted - 2015.08.04 09:27:02 -
[8] - Quote
Would they still have drag/stop functionality, no matter how much warpstrength a ship has? If yes, this might be interesting, maybe needs some tuning. |
Draahk Chimera
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
82
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Posted - 2015.08.04 09:38:15 -
[9] - Quote
afkalt wrote:What part of on gates was unclear?
Gates are the only non optional bottleneck, everything else should be left alone. It'd take a special kind of stupid to try this to a WH. Nullbear: "I wanna farm my 100misk/h anoms!" Nullbear 2: "We have a wormhole leading to C5 full of evil gankers" Nullbear: "Anchor a bubble on the wormhole. then the shining goddess of local chat can preserve us from risk vs reward again"
Despite the tone I find it perfectly valid gameplay. Someone was proactive and found the hole with probes. Then took the precaution to anchor a bubble on it. With a lifespan of 8 hours a Large II should last the lifespan of the hole.
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1730
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Posted - 2015.08.04 09:47:31 -
[10] - Quote
Absolutely, but it is addressing this kind of bullshit and this, you know the ones.I had in mind.
You'd not do that to a hole and as you say, if they scan it, find it, bother anchoring rather than critting it, fair play to them.
A strict lifetime prevents tactical/defense play around POS and other structures. Imagine trying to bubble a POS all the way through RF if they kept decaying, it'd be a complete pain in the ass. I don't think we should remove the more strategic deployment options.
This was why I think it should only apply to gate rats. |
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Draahk Chimera
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
82
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Posted - 2015.08.04 10:02:50 -
[11] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Absolutely, but it is addressing this kind of bullshit and this, you know the ones.I had in mind. You'd not do that to a hole and as you say, if they scan it, find it, bother anchoring rather than critting it, fair play to them. A strict lifetime prevents tactical/defense play around POS and other structures. Imagine trying to bubble a POS all the way through RF if they kept decaying, it'd be a complete pain in the ass. I don't think we should remove the more strategic deployment options. This was why I think it should only apply to gate rats.
Fair enough. But the reason for me dreaming this up and posting it was not (only) to address Hellbubbles. Rather I wanted to drag bubbles, kicking and screaming no doubt, into modern EVE. "Granular", player interactive and "analog". Rather than what it is now, something that you anchor and then it does it's job (which is infinite or nothing) for "eternity" without further player interaction.
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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6737
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Posted - 2015.08.04 10:54:53 -
[12] - Quote
Sounds like they should be petitioned for lagbombing.
Like seriously, those are overboard...
^^ Delicious goon ((tech nerf, siphon, drone assist, supercap)) tears.
Taking a wrecking ball to the futile hopes and broken dreams of skillless blobbers.
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FT Diomedes
The Graduates Get Off My Lawn
1495
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Posted - 2015.08.04 11:14:32 -
[13] - Quote
Draahk Chimera wrote:FT Diomedes wrote:I'm not a die-hard fan of anchored bubbles, but the current implementation is better and more interesting than your suggestion. In the interest of civil discourse could you please explain how an 11 year old system with a digital on-off gameplay and no player interaction is "more interesting than a granular system with varied lifespans, "points" and so on?
What you are really asking for is a way to "nullify" any ship against static bubbles. That's one reason not to support it.
Another reason is that player interaction is currently required to remove the bubbles. Making another player take the time and risk to shoot a bubble is just fine by me.
On the other hand, if Circadian Seekers or Sleepers want to start shooting bubbles, that's fine by me too. While they are at it, maybe they can shoot off-line towers, abandoned drones, and other assorted space wreckage.
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. So, why do I post here?
I'm stubborn.
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Khan Wrenth
Hedion University Amarr Empire
200
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Posted - 2015.08.04 11:26:01 -
[14] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Sounds like they should be petitioned for lagbombing. Like seriously, those are overboard...
I've said it before, I'll say it again. Make it so bubbles cannot intersect. It works in Dungeon Defenders, it can work here.
Let's discuss overhauling the way we get intel in EvE.
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Aurure
Krautfleet Goonswarm Federation
2
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Posted - 2015.08.04 11:35:17 -
[15] - Quote
If we get cubic. or tetraedic bubbles then, sure, make it so that they can't intersect.
But they wouldn't be bubbles anymore. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1731
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Posted - 2015.08.04 11:36:08 -
[16] - Quote
Khan Wrenth wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Sounds like they should be petitioned for lagbombing. Like seriously, those are overboard... I've said it before, I'll say it again. Make it so bubbles cannot intersect. It works in Dungeon Defenders, it can work here.
Then you can't cage a POS to hell and back and the goodies will just escape. |
Barrogh Habalu
Forever Winter Absolute Zero.
990
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Posted - 2015.08.04 12:06:59 -
[17] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Then you can't cage a POS to hell and back and the goodies will just escape. Technically you'll be able to cover a POS with several layers of bubbles then, I suppose... That'd be a ton of hassle.
Future of T3 cruisers - multi-tool they aspired to be instead of sledgehammer they have become
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Nyalnara
AdAstra. Beach Club
97
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Posted - 2015.08.04 13:51:29 -
[18] - Quote
Khan Wrenth wrote:Make it so bubbles cannot intersect. It works in Dungeon Defenders, it can work here.
Dungeon Defenders is a 2D game (when it comes to bubbles). And you can precisely place it, because there are mechanichs to do so.
As far as i remember, it is kinda hard to precisely put your ship in a specific spot (because acceleration/deceleration). And when launched the bubble anchorable will spawn "somewhere" around your ship. More imprecision.
Restricting placement is fine when you can choose exact position, restricting placement is not fine when game-mechanics choose for you.
In case of ponies, keep calm and start running.
French half-noob. Founder of [DEUPP]Dark Evil Undead Ponies Productions.
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Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
1964
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Posted - 2015.08.04 14:23:30 -
[19] - Quote
I can understand the OP's desire to mix things up a bit. Right now, there is no gameplay reason not to use T2 large bubbles if they are available. His proposal would make smaller bubbles more useful and open up more varied gameplay ideas.
Having said that, I can't support this idea. The whole point of bubbles (no pun intended) is to provide warp interdiction against ships up to, and including, supercaps. Since only infinite-point systems can interdict supercaps, anchorable bubbles would need to retain their infinite-point status. Plus, if you go to a finite-point system on bubbles, the interdiction immunity role bonus becomes far less useful and those hulls would likely have to be re-balanced to compensate.
I support tweaking anchored bubbles to make smaller bubbles more viable, just not this particular tweak. Maybe change up their relative HP stats such that larger bubbles are more fragile but cover more area and smaller bubbles are more durable but cover less area?
Relatively Notorious By Association
My Many Misadventures
Inaugural C&P Thunderdome Champion
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Nyalnara
AdAstra. Beach Club
98
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Posted - 2015.08.04 14:49:45 -
[20] - Quote
Bronson Hughes wrote:I support tweaking anchored bubbles to make smaller bubbles more viable, just not this particular tweak. Maybe change up their relative HP stats such that larger bubbles are more fragile but cover more area and smaller bubbles are more durable but cover less area?
That. Totally supporting that.
In case of ponies, keep calm and start running.
French half-noob. Founder of [DEUPP]Dark Evil Undead Ponies Productions.
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Khan Wrenth
Hedion University Amarr Empire
200
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Posted - 2015.08.04 15:02:04 -
[21] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Then you can't cage a POS to hell and back and the goodies will just escape.
Then get an interdictor and launch some bubbles. We're talking about anchorables. If the goodies escape, pilot better.
Nyalnara wrote:Dungeon Defenders is a 2D game (when it comes to bubbles). And you can precisely place it, because there are mechanichs to do so.
As far as i remember, it is kinda hard to precisely put your ship in a specific spot (because acceleration/deceleration). And when launched the bubble anchorable will spawn "somewhere" around your ship. More imprecision.
Restricting placement is fine when you can choose exact position, restricting placement is not fine when game-mechanics choose for you.
Precise placement isn't necessary. Being off for a few meters is fine when bubbles can reach up to 40k according to my in-game info panel. You have access to a ship overlay that gives you range information. I'd hate to break the news to you, but you know when you're 80km from another object (40km for the existing bubble, 40km for the bubble you want to anchor). On the off chance you are trying for exact placement and it tries to anchor off your port bow and the game refuses because you are too close, try again until the game anchors it off your starboard bow. You'll be fine.
By the way, the fine men and women who put together that Borg Cube would disagree about any argument about precision placement being impossible.
If precise placement is necessary, feel free to put forth arguments about why it is so ultra-important that the difference of 30 meters on an AOE item with a 40 kilometers reach is so important.
Also, I'm not certain about anchoring. I'll give you that one in advance. But for fun, in the past, I've jettisoned dozens of cans around my stationery ship. They stay very close around my ship. I can't imagine anchoring mechanics are all that much more different.
Let's discuss overhauling the way we get intel in EvE.
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elitatwo
Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team
779
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Posted - 2015.08.04 15:05:45 -
[22] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Sounds like they should be petitioned for lagbombing. Like seriously, those are overboard...
Yes they are and they can potentionally make you blind. The only proposal on bubbles I would consider agreeing to would be to put an end to gate-bubble-blobbs.
Some carebears in Oasa are so very keen on keeping their gates bubbled to kingdom come it is not funny anymore. Maybe a restriction on how many bubbles you can put on a gate (as in proximity of the gate) should be made, my arbitrary limit would be one bubble around a 100km diameter around the gate. Which means you can still bubble your gate but you can no longer make people blind by putting 3923490237857456 bubbles on the same gate anymore.
Tired of low and nullsec? Join Eve Minions and experience the beauty of wormholes!
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Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2076
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Posted - 2015.08.04 15:12:37 -
[23] - Quote
Khan Wrenth wrote:afkalt wrote:Then you can't cage a POS to hell and back and the goodies will just escape. Then get an interdictor and launch some bubbles. We're talking about anchorables. If the goodies escape, pilot better. Nyalnara wrote:Dungeon Defenders is a 2D game (when it comes to bubbles). And you can precisely place it, because there are mechanichs to do so.
As far as i remember, it is kinda hard to precisely put your ship in a specific spot (because acceleration/deceleration). And when launched the bubble anchorable will spawn "somewhere" around your ship. More imprecision.
Restricting placement is fine when you can choose exact position, restricting placement is not fine when game-mechanics choose for you. Precise placement isn't necessary. Being off for a few meters is fine when bubbles can reach up to 40k according to my in-game info panel. You have access to a ship overlay that gives you range information. I'd hate to break the news to you, but you know when you're 80km from another object (40km for the existing bubble, 40km for the bubble you want to anchor). On the off chance you are trying for exact placement and it tries to anchor off your port bow and the game refuses because you are too close, try again until the game anchors it off your starboard bow. You'll be fine. By the way, the fine men and women who put together that Borg Cube would disagree about any argument about precision placement being impossible. If precise placement is necessary, feel free to put forth arguments about why it is so ultra-important that the difference of 30 meters on an AOE item with a 40 kilometers reach is so important. Also, I'm not certain about anchoring. I'll give you that one in advance. But for fun, in the past, I've jettisoned dozens of cans around my stationery ship. They stay very close around my ship. I can't imagine anchoring mechanics are all that much more different.
The problem with non-overlapping bubbles is how the UI stop giving precise distance reading at anything over 10km. A targetted roid can be displayed at 15km on overview but still be at 15400m away. If they can't overlap at all, it effectively would be a nightmare to put a few close together.
You could always limit the number that can be anchored on the same grid to prevent the BS seen in the screen shots earlier in this thread tho. |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2076
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Posted - 2015.08.04 15:15:46 -
[24] - Quote
elitatwo wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Sounds like they should be petitioned for lagbombing. Like seriously, those are overboard... Yes they are and they can potentionally make you blind. The only proposal on bubbles I would consider agreeing to would be to put an end to gate-bubble-blobbs. Some carebears in Oasa are so very keen on keeping their gates bubbled to kingdom come it is not funny anymore. Maybe a restriction on how many bubbles you can put on a gate (as in proximity of the gate) should be made, my arbitrary limit would be one bubble around a 100km diameter around the gate. Which means you can still bubble your gate but you can no longer make people blind by putting 3923490237857456 bubbles on the same gate anymore.
Could be more than 1 per 100km without creating real problems. The 2 SS have over 30 each... |
elitatwo
Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team
780
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Posted - 2015.08.04 16:39:35 -
[25] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Could be more than 1 per 100km without creating real problems. The 2 SS have over 30 each...
I would be just fine with even 2 or 3 bubbles but some people just- I have no words..
Tired of low and nullsec? Join Eve Minions and experience the beauty of wormholes!
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Xe'Cara'eos
A Big Enough Lever
325
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Posted - 2015.08.04 18:31:54 -
[26] - Quote
what happens when a fleet of 100 people warp into 2 or 3 of these new bubbles - how do the points spread then?
also - can CCP not 'encourage' the circadian seekers to pop bubbles in space, especially if there is no player there to guard them......
For posting an idea into F&I:
come up with idea, try and think how people could abuse this, try to fix your idea - loop the process until you can't see how it could be abused, then post to the forums to let us figure out how to abuse it.....
If your idea can be abused, it [u]WILL[/u] be.
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elitatwo
Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team
781
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Posted - 2015.08.04 19:27:31 -
[27] - Quote
Xe'Cara'eos wrote:what happens when a fleet of 100 people warp into 2 or 3 of these new bubbles - how do the points spread then?
also - can CCP not 'encourage' the circadian seekers to pop bubbles in space, especially if there is no player there to guard them......
I am really sorry but I do not care. Maybe you don't have screen with 360cd/cm-¦ that produces really bright whites that blind your vision by just entering the system.
It is just silly jumping into 289585808427786259265 bubbles on the gate you just went into. And if 100 people scare you, you can dock.
Tired of low and nullsec? Join Eve Minions and experience the beauty of wormholes!
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FT Diomedes
The Graduates Get Off My Lawn
1500
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Posted - 2015.08.05 01:44:55 -
[28] - Quote
elitatwo wrote:Xe'Cara'eos wrote:what happens when a fleet of 100 people warp into 2 or 3 of these new bubbles - how do the points spread then?
also - can CCP not 'encourage' the circadian seekers to pop bubbles in space, especially if there is no player there to guard them...... I am really sorry but I do not care. Maybe you don't have screen with 360cd/cm-¦ that produces really bright whites that blind your vision by just entering the system. It is just silly jumping into 289585808427786259265 bubbles on the gate you just went into. And if 100 people scare you, you can dock.
He was not asking you. That question was for the OP.
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. So, why do I post here?
I'm stubborn.
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elitatwo
Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team
781
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Posted - 2015.08.05 03:02:51 -
[29] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:He was not asking you. That question was for the OP.
eeeeek... then disregard.
Tired of low and nullsec? Join Eve Minions and experience the beauty of wormholes!
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Draahk Chimera
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
82
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Posted - 2015.08.05 07:35:25 -
[30] - Quote
Xe'Cara'eos wrote:what happens when a fleet of 100 people warp into 2 or 3 of these new bubbles - how do the points spread then?
also - can CCP not 'encourage' the circadian seekers to pop bubbles in space, especially if there is no player there to guard them......
No spread. Each bubble would apply the points to each ship.
Again. It's not (only) about hellbubbles but about making bubbles interesting and modern. Read my previous replies.
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