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Merrick Solipsus
Flashman Services Ratel Alliance
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Posted - 2006.12.05 10:15:00 -
[1]
Greetings.
First I would like to say that this is not meant to be a whining thread. It may turn into one though so be forwarned.
After a recent thread I posted about wrecks and drones I started thinking.
Could we please get an idea of what is planned for a carriers role? A while back it was said that you wanted to bring carriers to the front lines of the battle. Has there been any progress?
PVP
It is well known that the main viable role of a carrier is to sit inside a POS or at a supersafe spot and assign fighters. I for one am not happy with hiding in a corner during a battle, especially if its large enough to involve Capital ships. Yes we got a massive HP increase but that just means we have more time to do nothing.
Yes, a carrier can get in the middle of the fight, but then what do we do? NOS the enemy, shield and armor rep people that, even with the HP increase, will most likely pop before we can even target them?
The Revelations patch was a major nerf to all carriers.
Pre patch, fighters were already fairly fragile. With the post patch HP increase, fighters are a very risky and very expensive offensive ability. Most battleships that fighters are attacking can tank them long enough to destroy them. If they dont want to kill a couple hundred million ISK worth of fighters they can now insta-dock, insta-jump out from any point in the system making it pointless to send fighters, other than the possibility of scaring the enemy into leaving.
Add to this, the drone overview bug for assigned fighters. If the fighters are taking damage, neither the owner nor the assigned pilot have any idea. Only people with very deep pockets dare to assign fighters.
PVE
Carriers were recently denied access to deadspace gates. I have no problem with this and believe this was a problem that should have been taken care of long ago. Hopefully capital ships will get their foot back in the mission/complex door in the future.
Personally, I love to NPC in my carrier. I dont think there is anything that should or could be changed to make NPCing in a carrier better. However, there are bugs and nerfs that can make this very frustrating.
First, why is it fighters still dont MWD back when they are recalled. If I am NPCing my targets are usually a minimum of 30k away. When NPCs spawn they almost always target the fighters first. This is fine, but when the fighters attack it causes the NPC to try keeping an optimal range on the fighters. The fight can finish up to 60-70k away from the pilot. With this MWD bug it can take several (4-5) minutes for the fighters to return to the ship. If more than one BS is firing on a fighter that is this far out, you can almost guarantee it will get destroyed. This can get very expensive with a couple unlucky spawns and targets.
I had this happen a couple weeks ago and was told that I was out of luck. 60mil in fighters gone from this in one night. Luckily it hasnt happened since then.
If a fighter/drone does take lots of fire and youre lucky enough to get it back, you send out repair drones to fix it right? Not anymore. Due to the drone changes in the latest patch, drones no longer fire on anything owned by you. This includes repair drones.
Related to this is the change that fighters/drones can no longer blow up your own cans/wrecks. As a ship that has no weapons and as a pilot that has absolutly no urge to salvage, this is a problem for me warping out/moving around, and can cause quite a bit of lag.
A person should not have to waste time skilling for salvage just to remove wrecks.
In conclusion, even though it was said carriers would be improved through more frontline enhancements and different, more desireable and useful bonus', its feels as though you are slowly trying to phase out carriers all together, leaving only "Jump Hauling" as a needed role/use for them.
Could we please get definitive answers to these issues and longstanding bugs?
Thanks for your time.
Merrick Solipsus
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maarud
Einherjar Incorporated Corelum Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.12.05 10:18:00 -
[2]
Did you miss the 50% HP increase to capital ships?
It takes a couple dreads/carriers + support to take down a carrier now and not quickly IIRC.
Maarud.
Proudly a Ex-BYDI member |
Sales Merchant
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Posted - 2006.12.05 10:21:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Sales Merchant on 05/12/2006 10:28:49 Fighters need a comparative boost in hitpoints. They are 20mil a pop and are now having to shoot things with much more hitpoints than before.
As for a carriers role...they can carry other fully fitted ships and allow you to fit/unfit modules at them. The larger ones can be used for jump cloneing.
They have a role, its more logistic than battle orientated but its still a role and a very unique one. I'd like to see them more viable on the battlefield but giving them offense capabilitys would lean towards the solo pwnmobile theory which ccp tries carefully to avoid.
One improvement i would make for carriers is XL Nos's with a nos bonus for carriers.
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Merrick Solipsus
Flashman Services Ratel Alliance
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Posted - 2006.12.05 10:23:00 -
[4]
No I mentioned that in there. The addes HP was great but that doesnt change what we can do. It just means we can nothing for a longer time. Please read the entire post before replying.
This was not meant to be an argument or flame thread. These are issues that have been talked about for quite a while. I am just looking for any updates to the devs ideas/thoughts, especially a response to fighters not MWDing back. This is personally VERY frustrating.
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Merrick Solipsus
Flashman Services Ratel Alliance
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Posted - 2006.12.05 10:25:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Merrick Solipsus on 05/12/2006 10:25:05 Thanks Sales Merchant, somehow I forgot to put that into the post. Its ok though, I only had 14 characters left when I finished.
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Darius Shakor
Minmatar Freelance Unincorporated Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2006.12.05 10:33:00 -
[6]
Originally by: maarud Did you miss the 50% HP increase to capital ships?
It takes a couple dreads/carriers + support to take down a carrier now and not quickly IIRC.
I thought it was more like 400%. Prepatch HP and what they are now on sisi shows they were increased by more than 50% ------
Shakor Clan Information Portal http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=3 |
Pan Crastus
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Posted - 2006.12.05 10:33:00 -
[7]
Originally by: maarud Did you miss the 50% HP increase to capital ships?
It was 400%, not 50%.
Quote:
It takes a couple dreads/carriers + support to take down a carrier now and not quickly IIRC.
Nonsense. A dozen BS + support are still enough even after Kali. poof
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James Duar
Merch Industrial
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Posted - 2006.12.05 10:37:00 -
[8]
In regards to capital ships on the front lines, one aspect which would really help define their role their would be the addition of some range dependent support functions for the ships about them. Signature radius reductions and the like would enable support ships to keep boosting a cap ship, and make their presence a much more decisive factor.
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Zodiaq
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.12.05 10:37:00 -
[9]
I'm not carrier pilot but use most of time drones... as gallente this is my main offensive weapon as I have more sp in drones than gunnery... as I see that drones have a lot bugs which are sadly ignored by devs... drones not returning to ship, drones not attacking selected targets (many time I saw that after issuing attack order drones at half of distance to target suddenly turned and wend back attacking previous target). And must say these bugs are in game for LONG time... will they be dealt with??
ps. this is also not a whining, just needed to point few problems linked with fighters (as these are also drones) and problems, with are ignored for too long... maybe time to add this to 'known issues' at least?
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Pan Crastus
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Posted - 2006.12.05 10:42:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Merrick Solipsus
Yes, a carrier can get in the middle of the fight, but then what do we do? NOS the enemy, shield and armor rep people that, even with the HP increase, will most likely pop before we can even target them?
With the right setup, Carriers are already pretty deadly on the front lines. I died to one in a gate camp recently, it had BS support, but from what I can tell, it had web/scram/heavy neuts on it as well.
I would like to see carrier-sized variants of these EW modules though: huge PG and better range - and not as expensive as the officer ones, e.g. Capital Stasis Webifier I with 30km range and -75%, Capital Warp Disruptor with 45km etc.
Quote:
[...] If a fighter/drone does take lots of fire and youre lucky enough to get it back, you send out repair drones to fix it right? Not anymore. Due to the drone changes in the latest patch, drones no longer fire on anything owned by you. This includes repair drones.
Related to this is the change that fighters/drones can no longer blow up your own cans/wrecks. As a ship that has no weapons and as a pilot that has absolutly no urge to salvage, this is a problem for me warping out/moving around, and can cause quite a bit of lag.
I believe these 2 issues will be fixed today(?).
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Kiyano
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Posted - 2006.12.05 11:02:00 -
[11]
A single carrier on the battlefield isn't as useful as 4+.
Using Carriers to help tank eachother is very useful. If anyone is stupid enough to fire on them they can pretty much make it take an eternity to kill one of the carriers, also the carriers can then remote rep other ships in a gang. Its tricky to pull off but nothing in the mechanics is stopping you, its the organization that stops you. With new gang options in Revelations that allows you to shout you need shields/armour, its good boost to that side of combat.
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DriveCrash
The Graduates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.12.05 11:02:00 -
[12]
drones still wont be able to attack wrecks, i'm almost sure of that, they are just reduceing the skill req of salavage.. but i still dont want to fit a salvage mod to clean house. =/
Drones are bugged to all hell. Repair drones are considered hostile, why? if assisting a friend, none corpmate, you have to acknowledge that it is a concordable offence. But no concord comes. Then when you mis-click and do something hostile, guess what? no warning. BOOM. concord. That is not right at all.
Carriers can be taken down by a few battleships, not a dozen. If they are solo. What I would really like to see (as a drone / logistics pilot) is a real focus on both things. Give logistics more surviablity and more effectiveness. I wanted a carrier for it's logistics reason. Capital armor rep, etc. But it's range is stiffling for a cap ship, and lets not even speak of the lock time on your friends or your own fighters. I would really like to see some form of bonus to scan resolution when targeting a gang member or your own property. This would make logistics ships in whole more useful, but especially carriers.
Right now I cant risk a carrier on front lines to ATTEMPT to repair my gangmates that i cant lock before they pop.. and there is NO battleship logistics ship. And the t2 cruisers are crap. Ok for HAC / Command support perhaps, but battleships? worthless.
Why have drones been ignored so long? are they considered that over powered? I've spent alot of SP's in drones only to find someone with half the sp's in thier offensive weapons of choice by far exceeds me due to faction gear/ t2 and drone bugs.
I lost a domi the other day because my heavy drones would not return from 60km out with any amount of urgancy in order for me to get my smalls out to kill off the interceptor pinning me down. Sad.
Ok sorry i'm getting off topic.
More captial modules please. More love on logistics. A little more attention on drone bugs.
Thanks. -DCO
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Zebler
Four Horsemen
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Posted - 2006.12.05 11:04:00 -
[13]
Pre Kali, I have only met one carrier on the front line. He was a lame arse camping a low sec system where he thought he was safe.
Post Kali, I have run into 4 carriers on the front lines, in 0.0, going toe to toe with whatever ppl could throw at them.
Sit at a pos if you are feeling scared, but click that warp button and come and join the party imo
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Nasdram
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Posted - 2006.12.05 11:16:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Nasdram on 05/12/2006 11:16:31
Originally by: Pan Crastus
I would like to see carrier-sized variants of these EW modules though: huge PG and better range - and not as expensive as the officer ones, e.g. Capital Stasis Webifier I with 30km range and -75%, Capital Warp Disruptor with 45km etc.
These already exist as Officer modules
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Dark Shikari
Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2006.12.05 11:18:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Merrick Solipsus It is well known that the main viable role of a carrier is to sit inside a POS or at a supersafe spot and assign fighters.
Be creative. There's been a 400% hitpoint boost, use it to your advantage.
-[23] Member-
Awesome new space games site, from the editor of E-ON! |
KIAEddZ
Caldari KIA Corp
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Posted - 2006.12.05 11:19:00 -
[16]
Tier 2 Carriers?
Same ship in every way except it is immune to EW... and costs about 3x as much to build/purchase.
This would see the carrier become a real front line ship, I know the carriers role in real life isnt front line, but the paying public of Eve want to see these ships deployed and risked in engagements....
Fighters also need a BIG hp boost, right now a Raven can tank 8 of them long enough to kill most if not all of them.
Kali has hit carrier pilots hard.
KIA EVE Home
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Pan Crastus
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Posted - 2006.12.05 11:27:00 -
[17]
Originally by: KIAEddZ Tier 2 Carriers?
Same ship in every way except it is immune to EW... and costs about 3x as much to build/purchase.
Motherships you mean? They cost a bit more. ;-)
Quote:
Fighters also need a BIG hp boost, right now a Raven can tank 8 of them long enough to kill most if not all of them.
This is mostly a result of Carrier pilots not choosing the type of Fighters they use well (and being limited to 18-20 ones at a time, i.e. being much less versatile than a drone BS/HAC). 8 Templars would rip a shield tanking Raven apart quickly, but with 4 Einherjs and 4 Firbolgs it may be tougher...
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FalconHawk
Amarr Falcon Advanced Industries
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Posted - 2006.12.05 11:28:00 -
[18]
it¦s realy funny, all want a boost for their capital ships and hey it¦s right. they cost a massive amount of isk and they can deal nice damage in fleet fights ... but please leave an option to kill them in low sec systems when one of this silly nyx pilots (yeah igno it¦s aimed at u ) starting to lock down a system completly. it¦s realy not too much fun to live in a deadend system when a mothership or carrier is camping the gate the whole time and you simply have not enough dreads around ... and not all corps can easily field 10+ bs pilots with neuts.
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Shiva Seran
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Posted - 2006.12.05 11:44:00 -
[19]
first off - if you are really ratting in a carrier you are doing something wrong.
imho, there is only one very annoying "feature" involving carriers. if a node crash or ctd happens whilst fighters are out in space, you are screwed. i think now it will be possible to scan them down, but it will take time and in that time, while the carrier has to slowboat there and scoop them, it is totally useless. if you loose a complete set of fighter drones by doing nothing wrong, you are ******...
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Merrick Solipsus
Flashman Services Ratel Alliance
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Posted - 2006.12.05 11:56:00 -
[20]
Quote: first off - if you are really ratting in a carrier you are doing something wrong.
Whats wrong with ratting in a carrier? It was my money and time put into it. I may as well get as much use out of it as possible. I enjoy it so thats what Ill do.
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Pan Crastus
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Posted - 2006.12.05 12:00:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Shiva Seran first off - if you are really ratting in a carrier you are doing something wrong.
And what is that?
Some people whack out their Harvester drones and mine in 0.0 ...
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twit brent
Dark Centuri Inc. Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2006.12.05 12:05:00 -
[22]
Carriers are way too vunerable to things like sensor damps. If one celestis locks and damps the carrier the carrier will be of no more use than it was at the POS. My carrier has had a few fights away from the SS or POS but its just not worth it.
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DaChMon
Caldari FireTech Imperium Alliance
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Posted - 2006.12.05 12:09:00 -
[23]
In several occations it has been stated that carriers, dreads and titans never were ment to be OMFGBBQ Complex pawnmobiles.
Secondly you state that their pvp use is at ss or pos asigning fighters, to that statement i must say:
BIIIIIINGOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, WE HAVE A WINNER!
Thats EXACTLY what they were ment to do, asign fighters and repair/refuel ships in combat.
------ My oppinion, views, flames, whines, discussions, rants and all other postings are not the view of my corp, my alliance, or anyone affiliated with me or my family.
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Thar Kahn
Caldari Swedish Aerospace Inc Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2006.12.05 12:12:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Thar Kahn on 05/12/2006 12:13:52 Edited by: Thar Kahn on 05/12/2006 12:13:28 /signed Great post Merrick! /TK [url=http://profile.xfire.com/krokenjra][/url] |
DriveCrash
The Graduates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.12.05 12:31:00 -
[25]
Originally by: KIAEddZ Tier 2 Carriers? Same ship in every way except it is immune to EW... and costs about 3x as much to build/purchase.
Try 20x cost.
Originally by: Shiva Seran first off - if you are really ratting in a carrier you are doing something wrong.
What else productive can you do with it besides haul fuel and throw away fighters? =P
Originally by: DaChMon In several occations it has been stated that carriers, dreads and titans never were ment to be OMFGBBQ Complex pawnmobiles.
Secondly you state that their pvp use is at ss or pos asigning fighters, to that statement i must say:
BIIIIIINGOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, WE HAVE A WINNER!
Thats EXACTLY what they were ment to do, asign fighters and repair/refuel ships in combat.
are you some kind of retard?
Complex pwnmobile? last i checked, cap ships cant enter any complex or mission. and may i state for the record that you've made yourself out to be a complete moron.
what are the bonus's on the carrier?
Repair.. unhuh, how do you do that from a pos? Oh, they warp to you.. right.. except your gang mate thats in desprate need of your repair ability and bonus's, is tackled and scrambled down. Or better yet how do you do that on a combat line (where it's needed) when your rendered useless by a 5 million isk cruiser? Yes a fleet of well planned tactical attacks should take down a carrier. However one should not be rendered completely useless so easily.
Refuel ships.. what? oh you mean refuel the pos, right. Oh ammo?.. modules? cause pvp takes so long there's totaly time for a jump back to the carrier and a tactical refit.
And just for clarity, let me quote you one more time.
Originally by: DaChMon Thats EXACTLY what they were ment to do, asign fighters and repair/refuel ships in combat.
Please sit down and shut up for the remainder of the thread. Thank you. -DCO
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Pan Crastus
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Posted - 2006.12.05 12:34:00 -
[26]
Originally by: DaChMon
Secondly you state that their pvp use is at ss or pos asigning fighters, to that statement i must say:
BIIIIIINGOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, WE HAVE A WINNER!
Thats EXACTLY what they were ment to do, asign fighters and repair/refuel ships in combat.
Assigning fighters and repairing ships, as well as hauling empire <=> 0.0 is the role they were limited to before Kali, the Devs never stated that this was their intended (only) role.
Besides, you cannot repair ships while sitting inside a POS.
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ZelRox
Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.12.05 12:37:00 -
[27]
Ive observed 2 carriers in the middle of a battlefield last night :D Great view. ----------------------
BiH 4tw |
James Duar
Merch Industrial
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Posted - 2006.12.05 12:40:00 -
[28]
The thing I've always imagined as being ideal for cap ships in EVE would be if we could have battles which spanned over a distance of say 300-1000km, with ships deployed everywhere in between. So carriers are holding the line offering support to forces up front, and while they're not in any direct danger in a straight fight they are of course vulnerable to a flanking manoeuver or similar.
My proposal for this is as above - give us cap ships which can actually render ships within a certain range effectively unhittable (massive sig radius reductions etc.) but that also suffer from not having these bonuses if enemy ships get within the same "sphere of influence" of the ship. To balance it you could also nerf the falloff on the guns of ships to account for "obstruction of view" by the cap ship.
In fact, EVE might do well to have these apply to every ship, since it would finally make combat formations actually useful. Bunch of frigs in a cluster of BS's? Pretty much impossible to hit at range, but get inty's amongst that formation and their toast.
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Hohenheim OfLight
Pegasus Mining and Securities R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2006.12.05 12:48:00 -
[29]
have to admit even after the hp boost, peopel still all me mad for ratting in my carrier, infact my corp tends to beg me not to.
But what else am i going to do with it?
The are so many fighter bugs its insane, I have so far had to put in 5 pettions to get fighters back, and have another one in now, its no fun spending 2 weeks at a time without fighters while you wait to get them back off reembersment petions there is not even a fighters cartigory you have to just pick on of the others at random.
Its not good enuth, if i ctd or loss connection due to lag, (which is happening a lto these days) i warp off and fighters warp... warp.. well warp to some where god knows where they jsut fanish you can not scan for them or any thing.
If i warp off and leave my fighters attack in a belt i find my self spending 5 mins finding some one to give my fighters to so i can recall them back to me.
TBh its not he hp boost or any thing liek that gets on my nerves its the fact that the carriers only wepon is so bugged!
Its the fighters that need fixing not the carrier, thou it would be nice if we could sort out the frig jamming issue. ----------------------------------------------
Gone but not forgotten
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Rawthorm
Gallente The Establishment Establishment
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Posted - 2006.12.05 13:23:00 -
[30]
I agree with the OP here. Carriers are still pretty fragile and while the HP boost was nice, it just means that a fleet will take 5 minutes to kill you instead of 2. With sensor dampeners being so effective against everything its rather easy to put a carrier out of commission.
Then you have motherships. Thankfully with imunity to EW no cheap sensor dampening tricks will work on it so it puts up a hell of a fight but there are 3 things these ships suffer from:
1 - HP increase does NOT = better tank. Sure you have alot more HP but once its gone its gone. This problem also effects Titans in that at heart they tank no better than a carrier because they use exactly the same mods to exactly the same effect. They really need some kind of tanking bonus to the reps (cap reduction maybe) so that these ships can actualy tank better than their little cousins.
2 - Fighter HP was kind of weak before. Now with Kali why bother chewing through a 16 billion isk ship when you can defang it in a matter of minutes? Add the various bugs that get your fighters killed, I do often wonder why motherships were made so hard yet have such a glaring vunerability. They simply need more HP or tbh elite ship type resistances based on race.
3 - Fighters will always take damage in most fights and when its all said and done you end up with a hold full of them usualy with structure damage. While a carrier can dock to repair these, there is no way to remove them from a mothership so you end up flying around with a bunch of d fighters in your drone bay. This ship needs to be able to rep its own frighters FULLY (even if you have to pay isk like at a station)
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