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Anise Tig'res
Duchy Ministry of Slave Affairs
23
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Posted - 2015.08.06 15:23:23 -
[1] - Quote
Install a CAPTCHA for the modification of market orders as a counter bot measure. Every trader I know is so sick of fighting bots to make isk on the market, especially when they provide impossible-for-human logs to CCP and get a response of 'We have no interest dealing with market bots.'
Not for creating them, that might be a bit too irritating for you folks who need your stuff sold NOW.
CCP you claim to be Anti Bot, so why be so apathetic to the point of mandating use of bots to compete? |
Kooshti
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
17
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Posted - 2015.08.06 15:26:32 -
[2] - Quote
no thanks, i already have to write the adjustment dont make trading more tedious with a stupid thing like this |
Kyra Lee
Ixian Machines TOG - The Older Gamers Alliance
4
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Posted - 2015.08.06 15:29:43 -
[3] - Quote
Anise Tig'res wrote:Install a CAPTCHA for the modification of market orders as a counter bot measure. Every trader I know is so sick of fighting bots to make isk on the market, especially when they provide impossible-for-human logs to CCP and get a response of 'We have no interest dealing with market bots.'
Not for creating them, that might be a bit too irritating for you folks who need your stuff sold NOW.
CCP you claim to be Anti Bot, so why be so apathetic to the point of mandating use of bots to compete?
We could add CAPTCHAs to activate mining lasers too! Then CODE. would have accomplished their goals of 0 bot miners. They could finally disband having achieved ultimate victory! All miners would be free to mine in peace, as long as they type in their CAPTCHAs right. This is one of the best ideas I have seen in F&I.
This is a horrible idea. If they won't ban market bots do you really think they are going to code CAPTCHAs into the game? |
Anise Tig'res
Duchy Ministry of Slave Affairs
24
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Posted - 2015.08.06 15:31:01 -
[4] - Quote
Kyra Lee wrote:Anise Tig'res wrote:Install a CAPTCHA for the modification of market orders as a counter bot measure. Every trader I know is so sick of fighting bots to make isk on the market, especially when they provide impossible-for-human logs to CCP and get a response of 'We have no interest dealing with market bots.'
Not for creating them, that might be a bit too irritating for you folks who need your stuff sold NOW.
CCP you claim to be Anti Bot, so why be so apathetic to the point of mandating use of bots to compete? We could add CAPTCHAs to activate mining lasers too! Then CODE. would have accomplished their goals of 0 bot miners. They could finally disband having achieved ultimate victory! All miners would be free to mine in peace, as long as they type in their CAPTCHAs right. This is one of the best ideas I have seen in F&I. This is a horrible idea. If they won't ban market bots do you really think they are going to code CAPTCHAs into the game?
Then clearly the solution is to just stop trying to deal with bots and hand them out with an install.
Or do you have a better solution? Surely if the idea is so laughable there are other methods. |
Lady Rift
What Shall We Call It
202
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Posted - 2015.08.06 15:34:05 -
[5] - Quote
Anise Tig'res wrote:Install a CAPTCHA for the modification of market orders as a counter bot measure. Every trader I know is so sick of fighting bots to make isk on the market, especially when they provide impossible-for-human logs to CCP and get a response of 'We have no interest dealing with market bots.'
Not for creating them, that might be a bit too irritating for you folks who need your stuff sold NOW.
CCP you claim to be Anti Bot, so why be so apathetic to the point of mandating use of bots to compete?
Guns and tackle should have captcha also and different ones from each other and like passwords they should be case sensitive and always have at least one capital and special character with a min of 10 characters long.
entering warp also. |
Dr Cedric
Independent Miners Corporation Care Factor
110
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Posted - 2015.08.06 15:41:18 -
[6] - Quote
How about a max market order placement/modification over a specific duration?
Cedric
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Yukimisama
Deviant Dollyz
11
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Posted - 2015.08.06 15:42:39 -
[7] - Quote
This is a really strong point in my opinion that would instantaneously actually fix the entire problem. We currently have no implementation to report a character through the trader interface that is botting against us, only character info, drop down, report a bot. Which of course we have no method of ascertaining in high equitable trades aside from buying an extra item at full price to get their name and then report.
I have a huge issue with market botting as I'm new to the game and am not new to MMO's or GUI's at all as I'm a veteran of the scene by over 10 years. I've written my own WoW bots back in the day only to surmise them once I realized I was making more gold an hour by just market manipulating than having my one little lone farmer and I wasn't about to pay Blizzard for 15 accounts a month like some people do, nor did I ultimately even do much with my amassed fortune in that game aside from bankroll my guild and give it away in trade constantly.
The issue I find in high margin low volume items is that they are constantly botted against, for instance I go to sleep eventually after undercutting literally all day and know I'm going to be outbid and that's fine. What isn't acceptable to me is logging in 7 hours later after sleep, seeing the first and only undercut at about a 5-10minute differentiation from my own order, updating one of my orders and then instantaneously being undercut by the same item holder. I undercut again, and like clockwork the other item holder undercuts within his 5 minute window. And now it's back to the races where if I'd like to have a chance in the market for the day, my game is now my chat box, not undocking, and sitting here with 5 minute inputs against this obvious bot until either his item sells and I'm back to human competition, or I give up 14 hours later and go back to sleep.
Trading is WITHOUT a doubt in the world the MOST profitable thing you can do in this game, I'm new to the game and my low SP allotment severely hinders me from actually doing anything in the game atm beside running pve missions, but thanks to the knowledge I have being a day-trader in the real world, tackling this awesome market system has been exciting and fun to me as a player until I'm now past my first few billion and constantly facing off in botted arena's.
I haven't thought of an actual solution to this yet at all as there doesn't seem one aside from CCP stepping up on a case by case basis, but this CAPTCHA idea would solve the entire thing instantly. Go for it full on and add another single layer of monotony to our obscenely profitable profession in the game because for the real traders out there, I know for one I'd gladly welcome the added layer of prevention if it meant I had the ability to compete with humans instead of bots.
You could also add a type of stipulation, for example a simple if then statement requiring CAPTCHA's, don't irritate the majority player base as the majority player base is never selling more than 200-300m of items at a time, while someone like me is constantly selling my 4-5b wallet over and over again watching it grow. So the if then statement could be; If Player Sell Order Total >= 1,500,000,000 ISK then instill CAPTCHA notification on Sell Order Modify If Player Sell Order Total < 1,500,000,000 ISK then do nothing
^^^^^^^^ THE SOLUTION TO MARKET BOTS The fallout would be more whining on the forums, but isn't EVERYTHING ANY MMO DOES EVER met with whining on the forums? I mean you guys changed your icons in the Overview recently and I think it's alot better looking personally, but the forums and Reddit were on fire with WTF WHY CHANGE IT POSTS?
This solution Anise has come up with, paired with my stipulation would affect a very small number of players, but it would affect the key number of players that are constantly at war with these botted players.
In My World...
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Kirkra
The Versa-Ex Corp The Afterlife.
21
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Posted - 2015.08.06 15:48:53 -
[8] - Quote
There is a problem with botting in the market, but this is one of the worst solutions to it. The only "solution" worse than this that I have heard was making the market NPC-only.
How about instead of making people do more work to enter the market, you instead rob the bots of their timing advantage? It was proposed multiple times already, just search for "tick size".
Before going on a rant, also remember that captchas are already half-defeated in the web, and are extremely annoying for most users. |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2083
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Posted - 2015.08.06 15:58:54 -
[9] - Quote
Kooshti wrote:no thanks, i already have to write the adjustment dont make trading more tedious with a stupid thing like this
How about limiting how often you can modify the same order within a time frame? Are real player really .01 ISKing each others for hours on end? |
Rivr Luzade
Exclusion Cartel The Kadeshi
1749
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Posted - 2015.08.06 16:09:41 -
[10] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:How about limiting how often you can modify the same order within a time frame? Are real player really .01 ISKing each others for hours on end? I do it every 5 minutes if I have to. Especially fun when I make it in time just seconds after another competitor has adjust their order.
No to that Captcha crap. Bots can already solve them more reliable than humans.
Station Tab :: UI Improvement Collective
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Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
3021
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Posted - 2015.08.06 16:16:13 -
[11] - Quote
Can we also get CAPTCHA for mining, AFK cloaking, Ratting and might as well add it for PVP also.
Roleplaying Trinkets for Explorers and Collectors
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Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
1509
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Posted - 2015.08.06 16:25:23 -
[12] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote:...
No to that Captcha crap. Bots can already solve them more reliable than humans.
Here endeth the thread... |
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3700
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Posted - 2015.08.06 22:24:40 -
[13] - Quote
So why should I be forced to get a bot if I wanted to actually use the market?
I can't read most captchas, and my eyes aren't even that bad. How many people would you force out of the game entirely? |
Samillian
Angry Mustellid The Periphery
913
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Posted - 2015.08.06 23:46:33 -
[14] - Quote
As much as I hate bots and there users I really can't get on board with making an already tedious time sink worse.
Not supported.
NBSI shall be the whole of the Law
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Caleb Seremshur
Gladiators of Rage RAZOR Alliance
595
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Posted - 2015.08.06 23:50:53 -
[15] - Quote
Dr Cedric wrote:How about a max market order placement/modification over a specific duration?
It wont stio any serious bot trader but it will inconvenience them with running multiple accounts. Making most trade skills non-trial is a good first cursory step in that direction.
No more than one market order modification per item per hour. No more than 6 changes per item per day.
Lower the ceiling on how the bot operates and create the need for either more inconvenience with pathological traders (who currently have an extremely easy time) and introduce risk as they take bigger stabs on margins thanks to reduced response times to market order changes.
Veteran and solo/small gang PVP advocate.
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Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
546
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Posted - 2015.08.07 02:05:29 -
[16] - Quote
I'm gonna jump on the "No," bandwagon for this one. CAPTCHA for the market just sounds more like Verified by Visa; just as likely to be a hindrance to a legitimate transaction as it is a preventative measure against illegitimate ones. People seem to act like CAPTCHA works all the time flawlessly when they talk about it, but I've been locked out of many sites and login screens just because the CAPTCHA is virtually unreadable to know this would be an absolutely crap move. A vote for a limited number of modifications per time option over what is in my honest opinion one of the clumsiest security systems I've ever ran across. To be blunt, you're better of slapping or spitting players in the face than adding this in. No offense to the OP or anything, you do have a point and I agree that an agreeable solution can and should be done...CAPTCHA is not it.
PS, can say how much VbV is **** again? Love the way banks drag their feet on removing account lockouts, too. Okay, I'm done...
"Tomahawks?"
"----in' A, right?"
"Trouble is, those things cost like a million and a half each."
"----, you pay me half that and I'll hump in some c4 and blow the ---- out of it my own damn self."
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1537
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Posted - 2015.08.07 02:16:16 -
[17] - Quote
Caleb Seremshur wrote:Dr Cedric wrote:How about a max market order placement/modification over a specific duration? It wont stio any serious bot trader but it will inconvenience them with running multiple accounts. Making most trade skills non-trial is a good first cursory step in that direction. No more than one market order modification per item per hour. No more than 6 changes per item per day. Lower the ceiling on how the bot operates and create the need for either more inconvenience with pathological traders (who currently have an extremely easy time) and introduce risk as they take bigger stabs on margins thanks to reduced response times to market order changes. Not seeing how this works out in anyone's advantage. The seller trying to get stock to move quickly making cuts in margin loses the ability to respond to being -.01 isked. Serious traders simply create orders for the same item on different characters to allow for faster responses to being underbid, making the issue worse for people like op, and bots combine those tactics with perfect awareness to crush the market capabilities of those who think the current system is bad. |
Ralph King-Griffin
Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance
11163
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Posted - 2015.08.07 02:53:07 -
[18] - Quote
no i know what would kill eve...CAPTCHA
=]|[=
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Caleb Seremshur
Gladiators of Rage RAZOR Alliance
596
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Posted - 2015.08.07 03:47:36 -
[19] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Caleb Seremshur wrote:Dr Cedric wrote:How about a max market order placement/modification over a specific duration? It wont stio any serious bot trader but it will inconvenience them with running multiple accounts. Making most trade skills non-trial is a good first cursory step in that direction. No more than one market order modification per item per hour. No more than 6 changes per item per day. Lower the ceiling on how the bot operates and create the need for either more inconvenience with pathological traders (who currently have an extremely easy time) and introduce risk as they take bigger stabs on margins thanks to reduced response times to market order changes. Not seeing how this works out in anyone's advantage. The seller trying to get stock to move quickly making cuts in margin loses the ability to respond to being -.01 isked. Serious traders simply create orders for the same item on different characters to allow for faster responses to being underbid, making the issue worse for people like op, and bots combine those tactics with perfect awareness to crush the market capabilities of those who think the current system is bad.
Well what else are you going to do? Point out that the eula is reciprocal and that CCP have a duty to deal with market bots?
Yeah.
Veteran and solo/small gang PVP advocate.
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Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication TOG - The Older Gamers Alliance
269
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Posted - 2015.08.07 04:03:07 -
[20] - Quote
Kyra Lee wrote: This is a horrible idea. If they won't ban market bots do you really think they are going to code CAPTCHAs into the game?
Quite right. Additionally, it makes changing market orders for traders, non-bot traders, tedious. Pass.
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Raz Xym
Speaker for the Dead Get Off My Lawn
3
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Posted - 2015.08.07 04:19:07 -
[21] - Quote
no no a thousand times no. Can you imagine updating 300 market orders? |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1539
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Posted - 2015.08.07 04:22:17 -
[22] - Quote
Caleb Seremshur wrote:Well what else are you going to do? Point out that the eula is reciprocal and that CCP have a duty to deal with market bots?
Yeah. So empowering bots even further over humans is good because we did something, no matter how ill conceived? You seem to have completely lost sight of the single good reason to take action against bots: preservation of a positive user experience for rule biding players.
Your idea accomplishes neither the elimination of bots or an improvement for legitimate payers. Rather the opposite. It cripples human players making botting seem more advantageous.
We should do nothing mechanically save that which aids in the detection of bots while remaining transparent to real players. |
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
2364
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Posted - 2015.08.07 04:36:24 -
[23] - Quote
Raz Xym wrote:no no a thousand times no. Can you imagine updating 300 market orders?
Yes. It's painful enough as is. Anyone with more than 50 orders would go crazy. Not metaphorically crazy but actually just frustrated: actually crazy.
OP, this is absolutely the worst idea I've seen in F&I (and it has come up before). I don't say this often and I usually feel bad after I do, but seriously, just delete the account and leave forever. |
Mag's
the united
19975
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Posted - 2015.08.07 05:49:24 -
[24] - Quote
Why on earth would CCP add a mechanic against bots, best suited for bots to bypass?
Destination SkillQueue:-
It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
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Anise Tig'res
Duchy Ministry of Slave Affairs
26
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Posted - 2015.08.07 06:39:01 -
[25] - Quote
I see plenty of people having fun at how bad the idea is, but can't help but notice no one seems to have an actual idea of their own. Someone care to improve upon this idea or is everyone to distracted inflating their own ego? |
Mag's
the united
19975
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Posted - 2015.08.07 06:43:54 -
[26] - Quote
Anise Tig'res wrote:I see plenty of people having fun at how bad the idea is, but can't help but notice no one seems to have an actual idea of their own. Someone care to improve upon this idea or is everyone to distracted inflating their own ego? You could just accept it was a bad idea, nothing new and ill suited for the job. The only ego I'm seeing here atm, is yours tbh.
Destination SkillQueue:-
It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
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Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
2364
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Posted - 2015.08.07 07:31:25 -
[27] - Quote
Anise Tig'res wrote:I see plenty of people having fun at how bad the idea is, but can't help but notice no one seems to have an actual idea of their own. Someone care to improve upon this idea or is everyone to distracted inflating their own ego?
I'm specifically here to address the proposal at hand and how absolutely awful it is. If it helps end it I'll gladly admit that I don't have a "better" idea other than leave it the hell alone. Which, tbh, is a better idea.
If you had wanted to start a thread soliciting ideas on how to best address market bots you should have done so. It might have been quiet in there but at least it wouldn't be post after post yelling at you.
It's not an easy thing to fix. It's too bad, I suppose, but I'm nimble enough on the market that I make it work for me. Is there a bot on one of my items? Too bad. Good thing I have 499 others to play with. Some day, I rather hope that CCP can manage a fix but no fix at all is still much better than using CAPTCHA. |
Ralph King-Griffin
Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance
11166
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Posted - 2015.08.07 08:11:32 -
[28] - Quote
Anise Tig'res wrote:I see plenty of people having fun at how bad the idea is, but can't help but notice no one seems to have an actual idea of their own. Someone care to improve upon this idea or is everyone to distracted inflating their own ego? What's wrong with detecting and banning again?
=]|[=
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Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
55
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Posted - 2015.08.07 08:28:47 -
[29] - Quote
Anise Tig'res wrote:Install a CAPTCHA for the modification of market orders as a counter bot measure. Every trader I know is so sick of fighting bots to make isk on the market, especially when they provide impossible-for-human logs to CCP and get a response of 'We have no interest dealing with market bots.'
Not for creating them, that might be a bit too irritating for you folks who need your stuff sold NOW.
CCP you claim to be Anti Bot, so why be so apathetic to the point of mandating use of bots to compete?
CAPTCHA is the worst thing, that would be so irritating.
Sounds like you don't like the 0.01 isk game. If I wanted to play this market I could play the 0.01 isk game very well because I can spend as much time as I like on the game, until I fall asleep of course. |
Caleb Seremshur
Gladiators of Rage RAZOR Alliance
597
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Posted - 2015.08.07 08:50:28 -
[30] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Caleb Seremshur wrote:Well what else are you going to do? Point out that the eula is reciprocal and that CCP have a duty to deal with market bots?
Yeah. So empowering bots even further over humans is good because we did something, no matter how ill conceived? You seem to have completely lost sight of the single good reason to take action against bots: preservation of a positive user experience for rule biding players. Your idea accomplishes neither the elimination of bots or an improvement for legitimate payers. Rather the opposite. It cripples human players making botting seem more advantageous. We should do nothing mechanically save that which aids in the detection of bots while remaining transparent to real players.
There are a lot of good reasons to deal with bots - because they erode the need for real people. You might not remember 2009 but I do. I basically got told that I wasn't worth a damn until I had over 3mil SP. And the reason for that was competition with bots (not to mention the ridiculous training skills).
Detection of bots and the affirmative action to destroy them are two different things. My proposal to the market change was not specifically aimed bots - it's a realistic response to a patently ridiculous and unrealistic market system. I'm going to require someone to show me where in real life an analogue to that exists because I've never heard of one. Don't say stock markets, that's a derivative.
CCP makes money fundamentally in two ways; subscriptions and PLEX. If you want to be a complete cynic then you could say that they won't deal with all bots all the time because eroding a new players relative income level and pushing them in to buying PLEX to catch up means you double up on the income for that new player.
That's a very real and plausible scenario because let's face it, with an 8% player retention rate its not like burning newbies for every $ they're worth before they get fed up and leave is a bad business practice since the overwhelming majority will just quit outright anyway.
Seriously try and explain to someone who has never seen the game before how to play and what to do. Try it sometime, it's a real eye opener.
Bots are symptom of the disease. They're not the actual root problem.
Veteran and solo/small gang PVP advocate.
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