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Invention Part II

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Doc Extropy Gallente Cradle of Freedom Inc.	Posted - 2006.12.08 10:44:00 - [61] Edited by: Doc Extropy on 08/12/2006 10:45:29 Originally by: Ramblin Man At the cost of pimping someone's auction. Invention Invention brought us auctions on 2 run bpcs at a starting bid of 100 million ISK. Congratulations, CCP. @Dude who made the successful invention in this auction: Nice work! Originally by: Fortior Good things come to those who persevere.
KHEN Gallente New Horizons	Posted - 2006.12.08 10:54:00 - [62] I'm a little bit disapointed too, I thought the invention system would be more democratic... And I wonder why ccp is so scared by the idea to upset the T2 bpo monopolies ?
Doc Extropy Gallente Cradle of Freedom Inc.	Posted - 2006.12.08 11:00:00 - [63] Originally by: KHEN I'm a little bit disapointed too, I thought the invention system would be more democratic... And I wonder why ccp is so scared by the idea to upset the T2 bpo monopolies ? I'm asking myself this question for months now over and over again and I never came to a answer that I could post here. It would be nice of one of the devs or Mr. Oveur himself if we could get a statement. Originally by: Fortior Good things come to those who persevere.
Ramblin Man Empyreum	Posted - 2006.12.08 11:04:00 - [64] Originally by: Doc Extropy Originally by: KHEN I'm a little bit disapointed too, I thought the invention system would be more democratic... And I wonder why ccp is so scared by the idea to upset the T2 bpo monopolies ? I'm asking myself this question for months now over and over again and I never came to a answer that I could post here. It would be nice of one of the devs or Mr. Oveur himself if we could get a statement. Because flipping a coin and, based on the result, telling players who have put a multi-year, concerted effort into something to "F*ck-off" is kind of harsh?
Doc Extropy Gallente Cradle of Freedom Inc.	Posted - 2006.12.08 11:08:00 - [65] Originally by: Ramblin Man Originally by: Doc Extropy Originally by: KHEN I'm a little bit disapointed too, I thought the invention system would be more democratic... And I wonder why ccp is so scared by the idea to upset the T2 bpo monopolies ? I'm asking myself this question for months now over and over again and I never came to a answer that I could post here. It would be nice of one of the devs or Mr. Oveur himself if we could get a statement. Because flipping a coin and, based on the result, telling players who have put a multi-year, concerted effort into something to "Fck-off" is kind of harsh? A lot less harsh than the present prices of T2 equipment and the fact that 99.99% of the eve population (and it is LITERALLY 99.99%!) can't be active market participants. All existing T2 - bpos need to be converted into T2 - bpcs with a good number of runs (in the range of 100 - 500 maybe) while research agents need to hand out T2 - bpcs with 10 - 50 runs on a regular basis. Everything else is a slap in the face of 99.99% of the eve population. Originally by:* Fortior Good things come to those who persevere.
Earthan Gallente The Amazing Fire Eaters Breidablik	Posted - 2006.12.08 11:34:00 - [66] I agree. Truth is with current prices imho most of even old poeple with normal rl life cant afford anymore t2 sniper setups etc. And i agree imho it should be mechnism giving abit more of the pie to various people not only a few chosen one.Note that imho with current system this chosen ones will prolly get bored fast and leave game cause they wont feel any thrill in battle having so mcuh isk. Changing t2 bpos to t2 bpc fo many runs then introducing at least a regular lottery with t2 low run bpcs imho sounds very good. The Amazing Fire Eaters webpage
Tellok	Posted - 2006.12.08 11:36:00 - [67] rofl, what did u expect t2 has been borked since day one they had no intention of changing it then, what makes you think they will now?
DB Preacher Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.12.08 11:49:00 - [68] Originally by: KIAEddZ 9 days in, and not 1 thing has been invented (afaik), that was your plan CCP? Maybe, just maybe, their plan wasn't to flood the market in 9 days? Maybe, just maybe, they have a longer term plan since Eve is going to be running for quite some time yet. Heaven forbid you actually have to start working towards something, maybe find another corp who carebears cosmos and work with them? The general discussion forum is disgusting atm, full of quake kiddies who are far too short-sighted and demand instant gratification when this has never been the way in eve. How long did it take to get a titan in the game from when they were realised? Or a battleship? :\| dbp Caldari Alliance PVP Championship Winner Current RKK Ranking: (PSCAL6) Proficient Short Tanto
Blacklight Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.12.08 11:50:00 - [69] Edited by: Blacklight on 08/12/2006 11:50:58 That's some quality ranting you've got going on there Eddz I'd sell you a HAC for cheap to cheer you up but we're hogging all the blueprints for internal use, Blog
KHEN Gallente New Horizons	Posted - 2006.12.08 12:17:00 - [70] Edited by: KHEN on 08/12/2006 12:18:42 Originally by: DB Preacher Originally by: KIAEddZ 9 days in, and not 1 thing has been invented (afaik), that was your plan CCP? Maybe, just maybe, their plan wasn't to flood the market in 9 days? Everyone has to remember that ccp keeps a complete control upon invention because they can change the success rate of getting a T2 BPC as they want. Even if everyone in EVE was trying to invent they could prevent the T2 market to be flooded easily. Of course Invention will take time to deploy. Primarly I supposed it would take 2-3 months to see an impact on the T2 ships prices. But one thing surprises me : each of the hundreds of thousands moon has already been scanned for minerals and not everyone was interested in the POS business. and there are 8 new Cosmos constellations (64 systems ?)and hundreds of players seeking for these. And still no news of a discover even by accident :)
Earthan Gallente The Amazing Fire Eaters Breidablik	Posted - 2006.12.08 12:39:00 - [71] Originally by: Blacklight Edited by: Blacklight on 08/12/2006 11:50:58 That's some quality ranting you've got going on there Eddz I'd sell you a HAC for cheap to cheer you up but we're hogging all the blueprints for internal use, Well imho Black so much concentrated isk given out randomly to so few perons is not good.Really not good. Imho another solution like for example changing t2 bpos to t2 bpc fo many runs then introducing at least a regular lottery with t2 low run bpcs imho sounds very good. The Amazing Fire Eaters webpage
ArchenTheGreat Caldari Yesodic Nomads Corp Triumvirate.	Posted - 2006.12.08 13:00:00 - [72] Originally by: Ramblin Man 1) Have you checked the margins at Jita? 2) CCP has a two-tier market. Crash the top tier, and it falls on the bottom tier. Result, given enough time? Everyone with T2 kit, T1 margins on T2 goods, and everyone who is currently producing T1 basically loses everything. 1) have you checked margins outside Jita? You DON'T have to sell in Jita. Sell T1 ships in low sec with higher prices. 2) nah, T2 will always be more costly than T1, there always will be people who can use T1 and not T2. I see no problem with T2 production with T1 profit margins (in percent). If you can produce Deimos for 20mil you can sell it for 25mil - it's decent profit. You are just too much USED to current insane T2 profits.
KIAEddZ Caldari KIA Corp	Posted - 2006.12.08 13:50:00 - [73] Edited by: KIAEddZ on 08/12/2006 13:54:32 Originally by: DB Preacher Originally by: KIAEddZ 9 days in, and not 1 thing has been invented (afaik), that was your plan CCP? Maybe, just maybe, their plan wasn't to flood the market in 9 days? Maybe, just maybe, they have a longer term plan since Eve is going to be running for quite some time yet. Heaven forbid you actually have to start working towards something, maybe find another corp who carebears cosmos and work with them? The general discussion forum is disgusting atm, full of quake kiddies who are far too short-sighted and demand instant gratification when this has never been the way in eve. How long did it take to get a titan in the game from when they were realised? Or a battleship? :\| dbp I'll excuse your ignorance m8y, this one time anyways. I couldnt care if only 1 person was building... invention doesnt work as Interfaces from the "paths" profession arent being dropped in the way that they should. No one is asking for instant gratification, but people who have invested time and money pre patch launch could at least expect it to work, or some ccp somments as to when it will be addressed (I know the patch notes address it now, but that was after the thread posted) Stick to shooting stuff DB. ps. BL, thats twice you made me laugh in 2 days... stop it. xx pps. Agree on one thing though DB, far too much unconstructive whinging going on. KIA EVE Home
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2006.12.08 14:03:00 - [74] Originally by: Ramblin Man Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Pantheon Lea It does not take a brainiac to see that if invention fixes T2 market in 14 days, i would be ruin it in a month. It's like saying NPC-sold T1 BPOs are ruining the T1 market ! So, is the T1 market ruined because of them, huh ? Would you like it if randomly 90% of the T1 BPOs would be DESTROYED and you would be reimbursed the NPC price plus lab research price plus whatnot, AND THEN NO MORE T1 BPOs WOULD EVER BE SOLD BY NPCs ? 1) Have you checked the margins at Jita? 2) CCP has a two-tier market. Crash the top tier, and it falls on the bottom tier. Result, given enough time? Everyone with T2 kit, T1 margins on T2 goods, and everyone who is currently producing T1 basically loses everything. 3) ... okay, I just realized that it's like shooting fish in a bucket. You are so wrong, on so many different levels, that I simply have no idea where to start first... off the top of my head: If you base ALL your economic calculations on "margins in Jita", you'll get absolutely nowhere. Everybody with half a brain AND limited production capability would MOVE OUT of Jita the second he has to reduce margins to an unacceptable level in order to sell everything he manufactures. Of course, for somebody with zilions of alts and craploads of manufacturing power, Jita is still profitable even at minimum profit margins. Profit margins for T1 stuff are well above 10% on average across EVE, even 30% or more in lowsec and NPC-controlled 0.0 If you ask me, that's kind of more than enough already for a SINGLE MANUFACTURER. Low profit margins in hubs encourage moving out of overpopulated space and into less populated space where margins are higher... which is a good thing. Now, if you want to go extreme-carebear here and NEVER UNDOCK FROM YOUR JITA HQ, now that's the lack of risk you're willing to take, so take the same lack of reward to go with it. So, how is the T1 market/pricing for ships regulated anyway ? I'll tell you how... by MINERAL prices, and by INSURANCE PAYOUTS. The moment when you can manufacture a ship for less than 70% of the platinum payout, you have a cash cow (insure, blow up), so nobody will ever sell you a ship for LESS than 70% of that "catalog price". At the same time, you will notice how most ships get sold CLOSE to 100% of platinum payout (almost never under 90%), while the mineral prices FROM SELL ORDERS are always below 80% of platinum payout... that's close to a 25% margin for you if you know your math, even more if you buy minerals cheaper. In other words, it's the MINERS of EVE (and the reprocessing mission runners and belt ratters) that dictate the prices and profit margins on T1 stuff. Ain't that wonderful ? So, HOW in the world would a T2 market be regulated then IF you would have LIMITLESS supplies (at least theoretically, practically they come at some cost) of T2 BPOs ? Just like mineral sellers dictate the price and profit margins on T1 stuff, you will get MOON MINERS dictating the prices of T2 stuff, through sheer price control of the components needed. In other words, LOWSEC AND 0.0 POS MINING will be the determining factor, encouraging an even stronger migration out of highsec into lowsec, where the new "money is to be had", encouraging stronger conflict over good mineable moons and reducing the occurence of "death star" POSes through heavy moon-mining POS proliferation. Any way you put this, NOTHING says UNLIMITED maximum amounts of T2 BPOs would hurt EVE in any way, but QUITE THE CONTRARY. Of course, the alliances will still have the upper hand here, but smaller corps that can claim a few "less profitable" moon-mining spots can still make a decent living out of component production and (subsequent) T2 manufacture. Worst case scenario, we'll be seing T2 prices for "high interest" items (like HACs) go down a lot, while "low interest" items will either cease manufacture or become more expensive _ My skills \| Mod/Rig stacknerfing explained
DB Preacher Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.12.08 14:15:00 - [75] Petition > bug report > report problems. Hey, you just saved yourself a whine thread and have a better heart rate for it. My job here is done, now I just have to work through the other 398409238402580258 threads in general discussion. It's kinda sad being in here dbp Caldari Alliance PVP Championship Winner Current RKK Ranking: (PSCAL6) Proficient Short Tanto
DarkMatter Amarr Mineral Aquisition Group	Posted - 2006.12.08 14:28:00 - [76] Did you honestly expect this invention crap to work? I knew it was going to be a lame disaster just like I knew the lottery was going to be, and gee, what do you know? It is! This game is so disheartening these days... CCP fraked this up, but surely that was to be expected, right? Only thing they can get right is new PvP "stuff", that's all they really care about, and it shows... Hell with the inadequate mining system, corp & alliance systems, sov systems, etc... They don't care about that sh!t, they never have... Newest toy for my 63 acre sandbox Building the homestead
Sensor Error 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.12.08 14:55:00 - [77] the thing you have to remember is that EVERYTHING has come pre-nerfed. Akin to adding ingredients in a recipe- you add a little at first. It is easy to add more, less so to take away. Ok, so CCP introduce invention/ salvaging/ etc as one shot pwn-mobils where overnight everyone has 50 rigs and 100 deimos/ vaga/ 425 II's etc. That would SERIOUSLY frack up the economy... Instead, they add the frame work, wait for everyone to adopt it, and make tweaks from there. We've seen this already with salvaging (skills and results) - its only a matter of time before invention gets some love. RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE!!! ------------------------------------------ Dev Responses to common questions
KIAEddZ Caldari KIA Corp	Posted - 2006.12.08 14:56:00 - [78] Originally by: DB Preacher Petition > bug report > report problems. But then the knowledge gathering of those that have tried and are trying wouldnt of happened. I had no idea until this thread that the bug existed, i suspected, but didn't know If you look past the whinage, you will see constructive and sincere desire to get this working right. KIA EVE Home
Serapis Aote TBC	Posted - 2006.12.08 14:57:00 - [79] Originally by: DB Preacher Petition > bug report > report problems. Hey, you just saved yourself a whine thread and have a better heart rate for it. My job here is done, now I just have to work through the other 398409238402580258 threads in general discussion. It's kinda sad being in here dbp You know about 80% are whines, but some of them are legitimate issues. The only reason that they keep popping up is because of lack of information from CCP. For example Invention... A good indication from CCP about how much invention should cost and how available it should be to the average player. Rigs Who knows what CCP wants here. Something seems wrong. They seem to way, way too rare for what everyone assumed CCP wanted them to be. If CCP t1 rigs to be rare as hell, and not be fit on t1 frigs and cruiser, they should at least let people know so they dont waste there time hoping that rigs will be <30 mil a pop. The jumping of high sec missions. A guy asked a simple question. Is it working as intended, is it an exploit. CCP cant give an answer to even that. Just a yes or no. So yeah there are a lot of whines but a lot of it is born out of frustration with lack of knowledge about the direction of the game. For example say you were a high sec mission runner, that is what you enjoyed. You just want a CCP answer so you know whether to pay up for this month or not. If I was a High sec mission runner, because of lack of feedback, I would set a long skill training and take a month off. If i was into invention i would do the same thing. Do you see the problem there. It really seems like the players are beta testing this patch (with their isk), even more then the last 2. So yeah there are a lot of whines, some dumb and a lot of them repetive, but some of them have a bit of merit behind them.
Gaogan Gallente Solar Storm Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.12.08 16:03:00 - [80] So has anyone invented anything yet? Data cores are WAY too expensive to make it viable. Getting the interface, decrypter, skills, time, and a high quality long run T1 bpc is a PITA enough to get a T2 BPC, which you still have to go through the pain of building. It doesn't also need to cost 200 million isk in data cores to maybe get that 5 run BPC.
DB Preacher Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.12.08 16:55:00 - [81] Edited by: DB Preacher on 08/12/2006 16:55:22 nvm, you go girl. dbp Caldari Alliance PVP Championship Winner Current RKK Ranking: (PSCAL6) Proficient Short Tanto
Milena Marich	Posted - 2006.12.08 17:15:00 - [82] KIAEddZ thank you so much for this post!!!! Invention by far, but also salvaging and exploration are failures beyond my belief. DEV responsible for that should get new opportunity in different department, or different company.
Ishmael Hansen No Quarter.	Posted - 2006.12.08 17:39:00 - [83] Originally by: DB Preacher Originally by: KIAEddZ 9 days in, and not 1 thing has been invented (afaik), that was your plan CCP? Maybe, just maybe, their plan wasn't to flood the market in 9 days? Maybe, just maybe, they have a longer term plan since Eve is going to be running for quite some time yet. Heaven forbid you actually have to start working towards something, maybe find another corp who carebears cosmos and work with them? The general discussion forum is disgusting atm, full of quake kiddies who are far too short-sighted and demand instant gratification when this has never been the way in eve. How long did it take to get a titan in the game from when they were realised? Or a battleship? :\| dbp And here's a enlightened opinion. How many tech 2 bpos your alliance DOESN'T HAVE? Shut up with the bs and the biased opinions. Invention is worthless
BoBoZoBo Foundation R0ADKILL	Posted - 2006.12.08 18:26:00 - [84] Well, I agree that Invention is pretty much useless, but not for the same reason you do. I have all the skills but the material needed to make 1 invention run, but the cost is LUDICROUS!!!! I need to spend 90mil on materials (when I paid 100mil for the BPC!!!) for something I can only sell for 50mil, AFTER I spemd money producing it. Seems uselss unless I am missing something. ========================= Minister of Propaganda - Operator 9
BoBoZoBo Foundation R0ADKILL	Posted - 2006.12.08 18:28:00 - [85] Originally by: KHEN I'm a little bit disapointed too, I thought the invention system would be more democratic... And I wonder why ccp is so scared by the idea to upset the T2 bpo monopolies ? Empires are built on monopolies. If everyone had everything the game would not be very interesting... same in real life. ========================= Minister of Propaganda - Operator 9
Saris Hookers and Black Jack	Posted - 2006.12.08 19:04:00 - [86] Originally by: Doc Extropy Edited by: Doc Extropy on 08/12/2006 10:45:29 Originally by: Ramblin Man At the cost of pimping someone's auction. Invention Invention brought us auctions on 2 run bpcs at a starting bid of 100 million ISK. Congratulations, CCP. @Dude who made the successful invention in this auction: Nice work! The only reason these bpc's are so high is because there are no Bpo's so this does not necessarilly mean thats what all invention bpc's will go for
Deliz Seemack Quantum Industries Prime Orbital Systems	Posted - 2006.12.11 01:37:00 - [87] Did you say Quote: untested and undocumentedÖ I think it's CCP internal slogan -He conquers who endures. -Never underestimate game companies' greed.
MrSlippyFist Republic Military School	Posted - 2006.12.11 06:45:00 - [88] Yeah. Slippy when wet.
Lena Carebear	Posted - 2006.12.11 12:23:00 - [89] Edited by: Lena Carebear on 11/12/2006 12:27:13 Edited by: Lena Carebear on 11/12/2006 12:24:07 Originally by: Doc Extropy Edited by: Doc Extropy on 08/12/2006 10:45:29 Originally by: Ramblin Man At the cost of pimping someone's auction. Invention Invention brought us auctions on 2 run bpcs at a starting bid of 100 million ISK. Congratulations, CCP. This is dropped au a Exploration site ..... and not by invention @Dude who made the successful invention in this auction: Nice work! this bpc's drop from exploration sites ...... and it isnt a pbc from Invention .
Selnix Gallente Master Miners	Posted - 2006.12.12 04:41:00 - [90] Did I miss it or was there nothing in the patch notes for Wednesday that pertains to invention? For that matter, I've seen no response to any of the invention threads by any of the Devs. Could be possible that there is something really really borked in the implementation that they can't nail down or something, but at the least, it would be nice to hear that they are working on it. Also, I don't really understand how they decided which race invents what. List of inventables by race Please Devs, at least let us know if all is going as planned or not.

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