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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1588
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Posted - 2015.09.21 03:53:18 -
[571] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Depends doesn't it. If I'm using PLEX to fund a character purchase, then getting 2 billion for the same $ amount is a huge plus. If I just need a billion, yeah I might drop to $10...then again, have an extra billion as buffer...so maybe not.
It is like saying one can have too much money. If I offer you $10 million or $100 million which will you choose? If it is $100 million when $10 million will let you live a life of luxury and ease till you die and even pass on a nice inheritance to any children...I think you can see why that assumption might be flawed or not as strong as you think. For a buffer, I can see it. The issue becomes needing people to do so in order to maintain revenue.
That also relates to why the argument of "do you want 10m or 100m" doesn't draw a fair comparison. This isn't a gift, I have to give something for the 10m and 10x that for 100m. The question becomes how valuable is that "something" and what use is the money being gained. For IRL currency the value is quite high, in game it's not remotely comparable though, especially against IRL currency. So we can probably assume some elasticity should plex prices drop, and with it some in game relief for PLEX prices.
The issue is that unless the elasticity <= -1, it loses CCP potential revenue. There may be some workings long term to counteract this possibly (IE: Lower PLEX > more active accounts > more going on in game > more subs being drawn in > more PLEX purchases) but I don't have any data to lean either way. I'm just not convinced lowering prices is the silver bullet suggestion. |
hellokittyonline
Rifterlings Zero.Four Ops
125
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Posted - 2015.09.21 04:08:09 -
[572] - Quote
Remove incursions. Raw isk is no longer being dropped into everyone's wallet. Isk is worth more. Plex prices drop. Missions are completed, markets are formed, loot and salvage is stolen and most importantly; Content is created. |
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1519
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Posted - 2015.09.21 04:13:29 -
[573] - Quote
I see the cheaper PLEX issue this way.
If cars were suddenly half price, how many people would suddenly decide to buy two instead of one. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3365
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Posted - 2015.09.21 04:16:56 -
[574] - Quote
hellokittyonline wrote:Remove incursions. Raw isk is no longer being dropped into everyone's wallet. Isk is worth more. Plex prices drop. Missions are completed, markets are formed, loot and salvage is stolen and most importantly; Content is created.
Rat bounties are about 3x as large as incursions. And it is not clear that even eliminating incursions will have that effect. It might...or it might not.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
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ISD Decoy
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
1183
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Posted - 2015.09.21 04:47:50 -
[575] - Quote
I have removed a post and one quoting it that lacks sensitivity to certain people within our player base. If you cannot be respectful of others, and can't put others' plight into context, please don't post.
Quote:2. Be respectful toward others at all times.
The purpose of the EVE Online forums is to provide a platform for exchange of ideas, and a venue for the discussion of EVE Online. Occasionally there will be conflicts that arise when people voice opinions. Forum users are expected to be courteous when disagreeing with others.
ISD Decoy
Captain
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
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Aaron
Eternal Frontier
316
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Posted - 2015.09.21 04:50:05 -
[576] - Quote
Hasikan Miallok wrote:I see the cheaper PLEX issue this way.
If cars were suddenly half price, how many people would suddenly decide to buy two instead of one.
It depends on the need I suppose, if RL cost is reduced and isk plex price is lowered as a result the need for more plex would be required to achieve the desired isk amount.
Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
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Aaron
Eternal Frontier
316
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Posted - 2015.09.21 05:00:17 -
[577] - Quote
ISD Decoy wrote:I have removed a post and one quoting it that lacks sensitivity to certain people within our player base. If you cannot be respectful of others, and can't put others' plight into context, please don't post.
This is part of what I am saying, I know the post he is referring to and I am in full agreement with Decoy here. We have got to be able to consider the plight of others and understand it in order to move forward. I am happy that CCP seems to support this ethos.
It is unwise to discriminate against people for not having the means to pay a sub, this will only serve to feed the elitists and capitalists among us who try to shape the game to their liking with unsympathetic market practices and attitudes with regard to plex.
Plex for game time is a hot topic.
Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
32348
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Posted - 2015.09.21 06:49:05 -
[578] - Quote
ISD Decoy wrote:I have removed a post and one quoting it that lacks sensitivity to certain people within our player base. If you cannot be respectful of others, and can't put others' plight into context, please don't post. Quote:2. Be respectful toward others at all times.
The purpose of the EVE Online forums is to provide a platform for exchange of ideas, and a venue for the discussion of EVE Online. Occasionally there will be conflicts that arise when people voice opinions. Forum users are expected to be courteous when disagreeing with others. ISD Decoy, I'm struggling to put that hairdo into context. Please help.
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
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Divine Entervention
Legion's Knights Of The Round Intrepid Crossing
611
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Posted - 2015.09.21 08:19:22 -
[579] - Quote
conan o'brien |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3365
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Posted - 2015.09.21 08:26:24 -
[580] - Quote
Divine Entervention wrote:conan o'brien
Exactly!
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Salvos Rhoska
1472
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Posted - 2015.09.21 08:41:58 -
[581] - Quote
Aaron wrote:It is unwise to discriminate against people for not having the means to pay a sub, this will only serve to feed the elitists and capitalists among us who try to shape the game to their liking with unsympathetic market practices and attitudes with regard to plex. You, or anyone else, can donate as much isk, PLEX or RLM as you want.
I recommend you set up, for example, a Twitch channel as a venue for it.
In it, viewers with not enough expendable income inorder to play can petition your sympathy, and that of other viewers, for support of their gaming hobby.
You can also accept isk/PLEX/RLM donations which go towards a pool for support grants to these dispriviliged players who cannot afford to play the game, so as to make it available to them too.
PvE v PvP
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Deck Cadelanne
CAStabouts
220
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Posted - 2015.09.21 09:50:48 -
[582] - Quote
I'm not an economist, I've been having a real head-scratch about this for a while, mostly because I really like this game and want to see it (and CCP) thrive, prosper and grow...so here goes...
For PLEX to work as a game mechanic, two things need to be true:
1. The in-game price of PLEX needs to be low enough for it to be a viable way for the more hard-corps players to use it as a means to pay for their play time.
2. The in-game price of PLEX needs to be high enough for it to be worth it for players willing to spend RL cash to obtain in-game wealth.
This does seem to imply a third requirement:
3. The game has to offer incentives (=entertainment value) that makes both PLEX consumers and PLEX suppliers *want* to participate in said transactions
It seems to me that the real heart of the problem is one of content:
4. Banning input multiplexing effectively removed many thousands of accounts from the game...but this should have decreased demand and in-game price, the rising price means other factors are at play
5. The new player retention barrier is as high as ever so replacing those lost accounts is impossible without fixing NPE.
6. There appears to be no in-game content driver...shiny new ship class (sorry T3 dessies don't quite cut it) or something like that...to incentivise the PLEX suppliers to spend RL cash to go after right now.
My theory, at the moment, is that the remedy to the current malaise has to be something along the lines of a serious overhaul of NPE + something seriously "flashy" from a marketing perspective to both attract new players and help them be "sticky" and re-energize the veterans and get them more engaged in the game.
With Drifters, sov overhaul, (citadels + revamped purpose for supercaps), etc. suggests the stage is potentially being set for some of that to happen. I hope it is.
"When the going gets weird, the weird turn professional."
- Hunter S. Thompson
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Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
504
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Posted - 2015.09.21 10:06:37 -
[583] - Quote
almost 30 pages about one single item, which is confirm that it is overestimated by masses. |
Aoife Fraoch
Rabble Inc.
141
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Posted - 2015.09.21 10:43:26 -
[584] - Quote
Personally I really can not see PLEX dropping below 900 million without something dramatic happening. I suspect we are looking at a peak for right now, but given that we have seen trade volumes close to what was seen around April and May for a number of weeks, and the prices are still rising, I don't think it will fall far.
I would not be surprised if what we are actually seeing is a market correction. There seems to be enough activity to sustain a higher price than we saw a year ago.
I am sure someone has mentioned it, but don't forget that with mult-character training, and new things being added to the NEX store the space rich actually have a reason to consume more PLEX than before and maintain demand. |
Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
604
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Posted - 2015.09.21 12:08:51 -
[585] - Quote
Let us actually agree that he can't actually HAVE babies... but that we should fight for his RIGHT to HAVE them?!
But he can't actually have babies, where is the fetus going to gestate? You gonna keep it in a box?!
^Thread, circa p.24-30^
Best description of Eve Online and why the community is the way it is
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Anne Dieu-le-veut
Natl Assn for the Advancement of Criminal People
254
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Posted - 2015.09.21 12:35:10 -
[586] - Quote
I'd be all for lowering the price of PLEX to equal a sub, or maybe keep it a dollar a month more because PLEX have more versatility than a simple sub, BUT...there is zero evidence that would lower the price of them in game. That *might* increase the number of people buying PLEX from CCP, but there are so many space rich players that aren't even blinking at paying 1.2B ISK, there is no reason for sellers to sell them for less. Many of those extra PLEX sales might go towards dual/tri training by buyers, and never even see the market. I've only bought a couple PLEX from CCP over the years, and their IRL cost had ZERO bearing on my decision. |
Tam Arai
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
53
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Posted - 2015.09.21 12:46:28 -
[587] - Quote
confirming i will accept all plex donations gratefully |
u3pog
Ministerstvo na otbranata
712
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Posted - 2015.09.21 12:48:54 -
[588] - Quote
30 Pages here and more than 30 in market discussion. No matter how much we discuss PLEX, we won't affect it, unless we buy it with real money or on the markets. I don't see a point why should we delve so deep into terms and economics, who's privileged or not (after reading the last few pages, I already feel I am), or what the price should be...
If you have few trillion in your wallet, feel free to affect the price, but beware, massive manipulations may lead to a ban.
Other than that, relax, grab some pop corn, and enjoy the show.
P.S. I really like the energy and effort we put in here. It means we are very passionate about the game. Just don't leave it, if you can't afford PLEX, find other means, change playstile, beg, take loan, anything, this game is worth it! |
Zihao
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
119
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Posted - 2015.09.21 15:25:40 -
[589] - Quote
And the grinding class still haven't been organized to take back the means of production. What the hell Aaron? |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3370
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Posted - 2015.09.21 15:34:56 -
[590] - Quote
Anne Dieu-le-veut wrote:I'd be all for lowering the price of PLEX to equal a sub, or maybe keep it a dollar a month more because PLEX have more versatility than a simple sub, BUT...there is zero evidence that would lower the price of them in game. That *might* increase the number of people buying PLEX from CCP, but there are so many space rich players that aren't even blinking at paying 1.2B ISK, there is no reason for sellers to sell them for less. Many of those extra PLEX sales might go towards dual/tri training by buyers, and never even see the market. I've only bought a couple PLEX from CCP over the years, but their IRL cost had ZERO bearing on my decision.
Other than economic theory...you know that annoying model called supply and demand.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3370
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Posted - 2015.09.21 15:36:27 -
[591] - Quote
Zihao wrote:And the grinding class still haven't been organized to take back the means of production. What the hell Aaron?
So...the reserve army of the unemployed have found employment by grinding in Eve?
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3370
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Posted - 2015.09.21 15:47:29 -
[592] - Quote
Aoife Fraoch wrote:Personally I really can not see PLEX dropping below 900 million without something dramatic happening. I suspect we are looking at a peak for right now, but given that we have seen trade volumes close to what was seen around April and May for a number of weeks, and the prices are still rising, I don't think it will fall far.
I would not be surprised if what we are actually seeing is a market correction. There seems to be enough activity to sustain a higher price than we saw a year ago.
I am sure someone has mentioned it, but don't forget that with mult-character training, and new things being added to the NEX store the space rich actually have a reason to consume more PLEX than before and maintain demand.
Exactly my point a few pages back. If items in the NEX store have increased demand then you'll see an increase in the price. No need to invoke any other dubious explanation.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Anne Dieu-le-veut
Natl Assn for the Advancement of Criminal People
254
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Posted - 2015.09.21 15:51:09 -
[593] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Anne Dieu-le-veut wrote:I'd be all for lowering the price of PLEX to equal a sub, or maybe keep it a dollar a month more because PLEX have more versatility than a simple sub, BUT...there is zero evidence that would lower the price of them in game. That *might* increase the number of people buying PLEX from CCP, but there are so many space rich players that aren't even blinking at paying 1.2B ISK, there is no reason for sellers to sell them for less. Many of those extra PLEX sales might go towards dual/tri training by buyers, and never even see the market. I've only bought a couple PLEX from CCP over the years, but their IRL cost had ZERO bearing on my decision. Other than economic theory...you know that annoying model called supply and demand.
AFAIK there is an unlimited supply of PLEX from CCP, so supply is not an issue. |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2225
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Posted - 2015.09.21 15:55:59 -
[594] - Quote
Anne Dieu-le-veut wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Anne Dieu-le-veut wrote:I'd be all for lowering the price of PLEX to equal a sub, or maybe keep it a dollar a month more because PLEX have more versatility than a simple sub, BUT...there is zero evidence that would lower the price of them in game. That *might* increase the number of people buying PLEX from CCP, but there are so many space rich players that aren't even blinking at paying 1.2B ISK, there is no reason for sellers to sell them for less. Many of those extra PLEX sales might go towards dual/tri training by buyers, and never even see the market. I've only bought a couple PLEX from CCP over the years, but their IRL cost had ZERO bearing on my decision. Other than economic theory...you know that annoying model called supply and demand. AFAIK there is an unlimited supply of PLEX from CCP, so supply is not an issue.
The supply for the market is limited by the RL investment of players. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3370
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Posted - 2015.09.21 16:01:15 -
[595] - Quote
Anne Dieu-le-veut wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Anne Dieu-le-veut wrote:I'd be all for lowering the price of PLEX to equal a sub, or maybe keep it a dollar a month more because PLEX have more versatility than a simple sub, BUT...there is zero evidence that would lower the price of them in game. That *might* increase the number of people buying PLEX from CCP, but there are so many space rich players that aren't even blinking at paying 1.2B ISK, there is no reason for sellers to sell them for less. Many of those extra PLEX sales might go towards dual/tri training by buyers, and never even see the market. I've only bought a couple PLEX from CCP over the years, but their IRL cost had ZERO bearing on my decision. Other than economic theory...you know that annoying model called supply and demand. AFAIK there is an unlimited supply of PLEX from CCP, so supply is not an issue.
True, which is why in my first post back a couple of pages I had this picture.
Notice how the supply curve is horizontal (the red line)?
And notice that given either of the two demand curves we have a finite quantity of PLEX.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26171
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Posted - 2015.09.21 16:08:43 -
[596] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:True, which is why in my first post back a couple of pages I had this picture. Notice how the supply curve is horizontal (the red line)? That figure assumes that supply is constant for some reason GÇö it doesn't explain why this would be the case. So there is nothing there to note other than an assumption.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3371
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Posted - 2015.09.21 16:11:22 -
[597] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:True, which is why in my first post back a couple of pages I had this picture. Notice how the supply curve is horizontal (the red line)? That figure assumes that supply is constant for some reasonGǪ
It assumes that the price elasticity is infinite...i.e. supply is potentially infinite, but when you add in demand you end up with a finite quantity on the market.
CCP bears very little or no cost in creating a PLEX, so they can continually add them as players want them at whatever price CCP decides on.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2226
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Posted - 2015.09.21 16:21:52 -
[598] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Tippia wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:True, which is why in my first post back a couple of pages I had this picture. Notice how the supply curve is horizontal (the red line)? That figure assumes that supply is constant for some reasonGǪ It assumes that the price elasticity is infinite...i.e. supply is potentially infinite, but when you add in demand you end up with a finite quantity on the market. CCP bears very little or no cost in creating a PLEX, so they can continually add them as players want them at whatever price CCP decides on.
CCP's cost to produce a PLEX is irrelevant to the market. The real limiting factor is how many $$$ is cost "the market" to get a new PLEX added in the pool. If PLEX were to crash to 100 mill, most people would probably not buy 12 PLEX for every one they buy now to cover their ISK need. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26173
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Posted - 2015.09.21 16:47:01 -
[599] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:It assumes that the price elasticity is infinite...i.e. supply is potentially infinite, but when you add in demand you end up with a finite quantity on the market. I think the fundamental problem is that you're mixing and matching different supplies and demands, and overloading two distinct parameters in one line.
By your graph, demand should go down as supply increase, and that's generally fine and good. But which demand? Since you're talking about RL cost, I can only assume that you also mean RL demand and quantity, but since the supply and price is constant, demand and quantity should be the the exact same GÇö the quantity is the demand. So either you're confusing dependent and independent variable (the demand should really be the x-axis), or the demand shouldn't be represented at all (demand isn't a function of quantity here). Or you're mixing markets, which also means the demand shouldn't be represented. I'm tempted to say that demand should be constant in that graph, but it really shouldn't GÇö it's just not contingent on anything else shown in the graph.
I think what I'm trying to say is that: what are you actually trying to show here? That as supply remains constant (and infinite) and demand goes down (somehow) as quantity goes up, the twoGǪ do what? That price and supply are independent from quantity (which begs he question GÇö it's the premise of the red line)? It looks like you're either massively overcomplicating things, or directly confusing what's what by trying to have in-game and out-of-game markets appear in the same graph.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Aaron
Eternal Frontier
316
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Posted - 2015.09.21 19:23:26 -
[600] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:It assumes that the price elasticity is infinite...i.e. supply is potentially infinite, but when you add in demand you end up with a finite quantity on the market. I think the fundamental problem is that you're mixing and matching different supplies and demands, and overloading two distinct parameters in one line. By your graph, demand should go down as supply increase, and that's generally fine and good. But which demand? Since you're talking about RL cost, I can only assume that you also mean RL demand and quantity, but since the supply and price is constant, demand and quantity should be the the exact same GÇö the quantity is the demand. So either you're confusing dependent and independent variable (the demand should really be the x-axis), or the demand shouldn't be represented at all (demand isn't a function of quantity here). Or you're mixing markets, which also means the demand shouldn't be represented. I'm tempted to say that demand should be constant in that graph, but it really shouldn't GÇö it's just not contingent on anything else shown in the graph. I think what I'm trying to say is that: what are you actually trying to show here? That as supply remains constant (and infinite) and demand goes down (somehow) as quantity goes up, the twoGǪ do what? That price and supply are independent from quantity (which begs he question GÇö it's the premise of the red line)? It looks like you're either massively overcomplicating things, or directly confusing what's what by trying to have in-game and out-of-game markets appear in the same graph. If you're going to do a supply-demand analysis on a single good that isn't even a market GÇö viz. real-life PLEX sales GÇö you end up with something like this.
It is you who complicates things Tippia. You are completely oblivious as to why demand has gone down and it seems that you can't even speculate why.
Tippia, Why do you think supply has gone down? please give me a direct answer to this question without telling me it is irrelevant or any other evasive response.
Are you even prepared to acknowledge that plex is what links the real world to the Eve virtual world?
Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
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