Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 .. 29 :: [one page] |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Adriana Nolen
Sama Guild
117
|
Posted - 2015.08.07 07:34:40 -
[1] - Quote
I'm sure all of us are space rich but
|
Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
32153
|
Posted - 2015.08.07 07:36:47 -
[2] - Quote
Been waiting on this for ages. Ever since 850 mil ish. I just want to see what happens.
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
|
Sequester Risalo
Semiki Minerals and Missiles Company Ltd.
156
|
Posted - 2015.08.07 07:39:07 -
[3] - Quote
The same as when it hit 964 million. |
Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
32153
|
Posted - 2015.08.07 07:41:05 -
[4] - Quote
What
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
|
Adriana Nolen
Sama Guild
117
|
Posted - 2015.08.07 07:44:11 -
[5] - Quote
If some1 were to buy about 120 plex right now, the price would jump to 1.5b. |
Yossarian Toralen
M and M Enterpises
44
|
Posted - 2015.08.07 08:11:35 -
[6] - Quote
It is a strange product in that it costs more real money to use a PLEX to pay for game time than it costs to sub it, so people are going to sub their accounts more and more as the price rises and lower the profit for CCP in the long run, I'm sure they got a nice cash injection in the short term.
Short term thinking for a game that has been running this long is a bit odd. |
Avaelica Kuershin
Paper Cats
225
|
Posted - 2015.08.07 08:18:48 -
[7] - Quote
Adriana Nolen wrote:If some1 were to buy about 120 plex right now, the price would jump to 1.5b.
For a short time. I doubt the market would take long to adjust. (Though pirates could make good from careless people shifting PLEX in unwise manners) |
Webvan
All Kill No Skill
12183
|
Posted - 2015.08.07 08:24:27 -
[8] - Quote
"a billion is low" https://youtu.be/w2hsqEvPGWQ?t=14m36s buy! buy! buy!
I'm in it for the money
Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12
|
Tomb Ovaert
Freelance Entreprises LLC
7
|
Posted - 2015.08.07 08:28:07 -
[9] - Quote
Eve-O website chart by Chribba looks fine... I guess, though it is Summer. |
Ioci
Bad Girl Posse Somethin Awfull Forums
576
|
Posted - 2015.08.07 09:12:21 -
[10] - Quote
They were floating around a billion just before the ISBox policy changes too.
Many threads were made.
Then they died.
R.I.P. Vile Rat
|
|
B0RG 0VERLORD
Viziam Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2015.08.07 09:23:29 -
[11] - Quote
well i disagree,i think prices of plex will start to fall when supply and demand slopes,the amount of users buying will drop due to less people playing eve,numbers say we dropped 10000 members online in the last month(since fuzziesov),
so less people = less plex being bought
thanks |
Arthur Aihaken
Chig
4540
|
Posted - 2015.08.07 09:40:11 -
[12] - Quote
What, again?
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
|
Barrogh Habalu
Forever Winter Absolute Zero.
997
|
Posted - 2015.08.07 09:44:55 -
[13] - Quote
Yossarian Toralen wrote:It is a strange product in that it costs more real money to use a PLEX to pay for game time than it costs to sub it, so people are going to sub their accounts more and more as the price rises and lower the profit for CCP in the long run, I'm sure they got a nice cash injection in the short term.
Short term thinking for a game that has been running this long is a bit odd. I apologize, but you make it sound like it's either of two things:
1) Something that CCP regulates; 2) Something we must rally to fix to help CCP or something.
I am confused.
Future of T3 cruisers - multi-tool they aspired to be instead of sledgehammer they have become
|
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium. CODE.
13997
|
Posted - 2015.08.07 09:54:27 -
[14] - Quote
Sweet. I'll cash out once it hits 1.2 bil. I got greedy last time and it collapsed before I could sell off.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
32153
|
Posted - 2015.08.07 09:57:08 -
[15] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:What, again? I don't think that other time was official, as buy orders hadn't broken 1B.
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
|
Ralph King-Griffin
Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance
11168
|
Posted - 2015.08.07 10:04:15 -
[16] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:What, again? I don't think that other time was official, as buy orders hadn't broken 1B. You mean when they smacked is boxer's? I thought they had...that said I didn't check so.
=]|[=
|
Webvan
All Kill No Skill
12185
|
Posted - 2015.08.07 10:08:57 -
[17] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Sweet. I'll cash out once it hits 1.2 bil. I got greedy last time and it collapsed before I could sell off. And that's pretty much it, people are holding a lot of it. Multi-training is up there too, it gets held onto, sold, held onto some more. CCP has said PLEX changes hands a couple times on avg. I don't think the avg player understands what's going on nor how it actually effects player online numbers factoring in the introduction of multi-training as well. Some of which I'm sure are bitter wow vets ashamed their game took a slump and see every game as on the ledge ready to jump off and die. Well here's hoping the next wow expansion brings back their flying mounts so they can stop their ragequitting and return to the only game that makes them heppy.
I'm in it for the money
Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12
|
Remiel Pollard
Black Hydra Consortium. CODE.
6745
|
Posted - 2015.08.07 10:11:31 -
[18] - Quote
Yossarian Toralen wrote:It is a strange product in that it costs more real money to use a PLEX to pay for game time than it costs to sub it, so people are going to sub their accounts more and more as the price rises and lower the profit for CCP in the long run, I'm sure they got a nice cash injection in the short term.
Short term thinking for a game that has been running this long is a bit odd.
You know the people buying them with cash aren't using them to sub their accounts right? They're selling them for isk to people who ARE using them to sub accounts. What you just said makes no sense, because as long as I can sell plex on the market, I will buy it from CCP with my credit card.
GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'.
Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥
- Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
|
Commander Spurty
Dimension Door We need wards.
1539
|
Posted - 2015.08.07 10:30:33 -
[19] - Quote
I'd be worried about plex if they suddenly became 8~10 bill
That's about the top end of "flogging in and full time making isk to pay for subs" sort of prices.
Still peanuts for 30 days of play
There are good ships
And wood ships
And ships that sail the sea
But the best ships are
Spaceships
Built by CCP
|
Yang Aurilen
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
751
|
Posted - 2015.08.07 10:43:31 -
[20] - Quote
Ctrl+F "Eve is Dying" and Nothing Found?
For shame GD.
Post with your NPC alt main and not your main main alt!
|
|
Kooshti
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
25
|
Posted - 2015.08.07 10:57:30 -
[21] - Quote
Yossarian Toralen wrote:It is a strange product in that it costs more real money to use a PLEX to pay for game time than it costs to sub it, so people are going to sub their accounts more and more as the price rises and lower the profit for CCP in the long run, I'm sure they got a nice cash injection in the short term.
Short term thinking for a game that has been running this long is a bit odd.
think its the opposite way around, people sub accounts instead of f2p so thats 9.99 extra for ccp instead of a carebear grinding for a month to buy a plex off the market, then people will buy plex for rl cash because of the amount of isk they will get. ccp will make more profit from this
|
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
71
|
Posted - 2015.08.07 11:20:04 -
[22] - Quote
Kooshti wrote:Yossarian Toralen wrote:It is a strange product in that it costs more real money to use a PLEX to pay for game time than it costs to sub it, so people are going to sub their accounts more and more as the price rises and lower the profit for CCP in the long run, I'm sure they got a nice cash injection in the short term.
Short term thinking for a game that has been running this long is a bit odd. think its the opposite way around, people sub accounts instead of f2p so thats 9.99 extra for ccp instead of a carebear grinding for a month to buy a plex off the market, then people will buy plex for rl cash because of the amount of isk they will get. ccp will make more profit from this
Wrong! People will stop plexing and either quit because too expensive or pay the 3 months/6months package from account management. Either way is bad because the rising plex prices is due to the rapid decline in subscribers and this is still summer. Makes you wonder what's gonna happen to eve when school starts. |
Remiel Pollard
Black Hydra Consortium. CODE.
6750
|
Posted - 2015.08.07 11:34:37 -
[23] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:Kooshti wrote:Yossarian Toralen wrote:It is a strange product in that it costs more real money to use a PLEX to pay for game time than it costs to sub it, so people are going to sub their accounts more and more as the price rises and lower the profit for CCP in the long run, I'm sure they got a nice cash injection in the short term.
Short term thinking for a game that has been running this long is a bit odd. think its the opposite way around, people sub accounts instead of f2p so thats 9.99 extra for ccp instead of a carebear grinding for a month to buy a plex off the market, then people will buy plex for rl cash because of the amount of isk they will get. ccp will make more profit from this Wrong! People will stop plexing and either quit because too expensive or pay the 3 months/6months package from account management. Either way is bad because the rising plex prices is due to the rapid decline in subscribers and this is still summer. Makes you wonder what's gonna happen to eve when school starts.
Someone is still buying the PLEX I buy off CCP with my credit card. There are still PLEX buy orders all over the place. This doomsday scenario you're suggesting is highly unlikely.
GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'.
Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥
- Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
|
Vortexo VonBrenner
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord
2079
|
Posted - 2015.08.07 11:54:14 -
[24] - Quote
circles...running...hair...fire...virtual ragnarok is here...game over, man, game. over. ...
ITT: ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED?
|
Webvan
All Kill No Skill
12187
|
Posted - 2015.08.07 11:55:44 -
[25] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:Kooshti wrote:Yossarian Toralen wrote:It is a strange product in that it costs more real money to use a PLEX to pay for game time than it costs to sub it, so people are going to sub their accounts more and more as the price rises and lower the profit for CCP in the long run, I'm sure they got a nice cash injection in the short term.
Short term thinking for a game that has been running this long is a bit odd. think its the opposite way around, people sub accounts instead of f2p so thats 9.99 extra for ccp instead of a carebear grinding for a month to buy a plex off the market, then people will buy plex for rl cash because of the amount of isk they will get. ccp will make more profit from this Wrong! People will stop plexing and either quit because too expensive or pay the 3 months/6months package from account management. Either way is bad because the rising plex prices is due to the rapid decline in subscribers and this is still summer. Makes you wonder what's gonna happen to eve when school starts. Someone is still buying the PLEX I buy off CCP with my credit card. There are still PLEX buy orders all over the place. This doomsday scenario you're suggesting is highly unlikely. And also in that fanfest video I linked, at the time PLEX on Serenity was going for 3.5 Billion as mentioned in the video. Ok, now let the whining commence
<--- powered by actual dollars and sense ...er cents.
I'm in it for the money
Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12
|
Gallowmere Rorschach
Enlightened Industries Goonswarm Federation
1045
|
Posted - 2015.08.07 12:25:46 -
[26] - Quote
B0RG 0VERLORD wrote:well i disagree,i think prices of plex will start to fall when supply and demand slopes,the amount of users buying will drop due to less people playing eve,numbers say we dropped 10000 members online in the last month(since fuzziesov),
so less people = less plex being bought
thanks The inverse is also true. Less people playing=less people buying PLEX with cash to sell on the market. The true equilibrium is somewhere between these two points. |
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
3920
|
Posted - 2015.08.07 12:50:43 -
[27] - Quote
I'm not gonna grind 1 billion to buy a PLEX. My target price was, and still is, 750 million.So when I don't feel like paying 15 euros to play another month, that will be it, time for another break.
73% of EVE characters stay in high security space. 62% of EVE subscribers barely PvP. 40% of all new accounts just "level up their Ravens". Probably that's why PvE content in EVE Online is sub-par and CCP is head over heels for PvP...
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
25527
|
Posted - 2015.08.07 12:56:13 -
[28] - Quote
Wohoo! More cash for less. \o/
Daniela Doran wrote:Wrong! People will stop plexing and either quit because too expensive or pay the 3 months/6months package from account management. Either way is bad because the rising plex prices is due to the rapid decline in subscribers and this is still summer. Makes you wonder what's gonna happen to eve when school starts. Do you have any actual numbers on that decline? And have you taken into account the regular player activity behaviour during summer and early autumn?
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2096
|
Posted - 2015.08.07 12:58:46 -
[29] - Quote
Gallowmere Rorschach wrote:B0RG 0VERLORD wrote:well i disagree,i think prices of plex will start to fall when supply and demand slopes,the amount of users buying will drop due to less people playing eve,numbers say we dropped 10000 members online in the last month(since fuzziesov),
so less people = less plex being bought
thanks The inverse is also true. Less people playing=less people buying PLEX with cash to sell on the market. The true equilibrium is somewhere between these two points.
Why should there be equilibrium when it can just keep rising?
|
Gallowmere Rorschach
Enlightened Industries Goonswarm Federation
1045
|
Posted - 2015.08.07 13:00:51 -
[30] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Gallowmere Rorschach wrote:B0RG 0VERLORD wrote:well i disagree,i think prices of plex will start to fall when supply and demand slopes,the amount of users buying will drop due to less people playing eve,numbers say we dropped 10000 members online in the last month(since fuzziesov),
so less people = less plex being bought
thanks The inverse is also true. Less people playing=less people buying PLEX with cash to sell on the market. The true equilibrium is somewhere between these two points. Why should there be equilibrium when it can just keep rising? That just means we haven't found it yet. Onward to 3.5B! |
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
25527
|
Posted - 2015.08.07 13:04:19 -
[31] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Why should there be equilibrium when it can just keep rising? Hey, these aren't tulips we're talking about.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
Remiel Pollard
Black Hydra Consortium. CODE.
6751
|
Posted - 2015.08.07 13:11:00 -
[32] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Why should there be equilibrium when it can just keep rising? Hey, these aren't tulips we're talking about.
I totally get that reference. **** I'm old.
GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'.
Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥
- Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
|
Darek Castigatus
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
677
|
Posted - 2015.08.07 13:12:16 -
[33] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:Tippia wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Why should there be equilibrium when it can just keep rising? Hey, these aren't tulips we're talking about. I totally get that reference. **** I'm old.
Nah, just have good historical taste.
Pirates - The Invisible Fist of Darwin
you're welcome
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
25529
|
Posted - 2015.08.07 13:16:36 -
[34] - Quote
Darek Castigatus wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:I totally get that reference. **** I'm old. Nah, just have good historical taste. I suppose I could have said boo.com stock, but now I realise that there are probably posters here that were born after that, so now I feel old.
And tulips should be general knowledge, dammit.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
Webvan
All Kill No Skill
12192
|
Posted - 2015.08.07 13:20:11 -
[35] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Wohoo! More cash for less. \o/ Daniela Doran wrote:Wrong! People will stop plexing and either quit because too expensive or pay the 3 months/6months package from account management. Either way is bad because the rising plex prices is due to the rapid decline in subscribers and this is still summer. Makes you wonder what's gonna happen to eve when school starts. Do you have any actual numbers on that decline? And have you taken into account the regular player activity behaviour during summer and early autumn? Also keep in mind the bulk of the playerbase is in their 30's here. Some 60% I think it was. 10-15% in their 40's. ~25% in their 20's. A large percentage of players according to CCP are into tech, computer related, IT jobs. Why does it matter when school starts? So wrong on so many things, Dan.
I'm in it for the money
Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12
|
McChicken Combo HalfMayo
The Happy Meal
993
|
Posted - 2015.08.07 15:55:25 -
[36] - Quote
Tulips and boo.com
Not sure what era you folks are from but glad I wasn't part of it.
There are all our dominion
Gate camps: "Its like the lowsec watercooler, just with explosions and boose" - Ralph King-Griffin
|
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2100
|
Posted - 2015.08.07 16:01:51 -
[37] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Why should there be equilibrium when it can just keep rising? Hey, these aren't tulips we're talking about.
If people do what was done back when the tulip market crashed when the PLEX market potentially crash, I won't be able to do anything but laugh. |
Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12087
|
Posted - 2015.08.07 16:22:05 -
[38] - Quote
Adriana Nolen wrote:I'm sure all of us are space rich but
Yea, one has to be super space rich to generate an average of 33.3 million isk per day in a game that has missions and anomalies that pay 33.3 million isk for 5-10 minutes of 'lol work' (if you are a scrub and don't want to do 6 minutes of faction warfare missions that is). |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
25532
|
Posted - 2015.08.07 16:46:59 -
[39] - Quote
McChicken Combo HalfMayo wrote:Tulips and boo.com
Not sure what era you folks are from but glad I wasn't part of it. Bad news: you areGǪ
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
Starbuck05
Zeura Brotherhood
274
|
Posted - 2015.08.07 16:51:46 -
[40] - Quote
Get used to it...gone are the days when plex was 400 mil
-á- I am the commanding officer , u should adress me as sir !
-á- But if i call u sir , what would i call your wife then ??
|
|
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
3578
|
Posted - 2015.08.07 16:52:33 -
[41] - Quote
In economic theory there is something called Giffen good (good, as in "goods and services"). These are goods which have a reversed supply-demand curve. That is, an increase in price results in a decrease in supply. It is possible that the PLEX is a Giffen good. To see how this could be, first let me recast what I mean by "the price of the PLEX".
Consider how much Real Money I need to buy, say, 10 billion ISK via PLEX. As the ISK value of the PLEX increases, the price, in Real Money, of 10 billion ISK decreases. Normally one would expect this to increase the demand for PLEX. As the Real Money cost of 10 billion ISK drops, more players will opt to make the purchase. But if the PLEX is a Giffen good, then the reverse happens. The mechanism may be:
The number of people who would want a supercap is limited by the number of characters who have skills to fly them, not the super's price. Dropping the price of supers will have only a small effect on their demand. (I'm assuming a player does not want spare supers sitting about, they want most every one logged off in space with a pilot sitting in it.)
A player with little ISK can buy a super by using Real Money to buy PLEX, selling the PLEX for ISK and buying the super. As the ISK value of a PLEX increases, the number of PLEX the player need buy goes down. Increased ISK price leads to a reduced supply of PLEX. (Or, to put it another way, the decreasing price of ISK leads to decreasing demand for PLEX). This makes the PLEX a Giffen good.
A numerical example:
Say the ISK price of the PLEX increases by 10%. Any player deciding to make a big purchase now needs to buy 10% fewer PLEX. Lets say as a result of the better price, 5% more players decide to make such a purchase. Yes, the total players buying PLEX increases, and the total ISK bought increases, but as each now buys fewer PLEX, the total supply of PLEX goes down. Again, we have a Giffen good.
What this means for CCP: The increasing ISK value of the PLEX would reduce revenue, and hence is not in CCPGÇÖs best interest.
Know a Frozen fan? Check this out
Frozen fanfiction
|
Erin Crawford
481
|
Posted - 2015.08.07 17:01:37 -
[42] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:... What this means for CCP: The increasing ISK value of the PLEX would reduce revenue, and hence is not in CCPGÇÖs best interest. which is why CCP is currently offering us a 10% PLEX safe.
"Those who talk donGÇÖt know. Those who know donGÇÖt talk. "
|
Kaivar Lancer
Placid Peace Corps
679
|
Posted - 2015.08.07 17:13:20 -
[43] - Quote
Not much we can do. PLEX holders have no reason to sell.
Now, if CCP introduced a regular tax or fee for holding a PLEX, we can expect PLEX to flood the market. The fee needn't be large, perhaps 0.01% of the median Jita value per day. People would be more compelled to only buy a PLEX when they need it, as opposed to hoarding it for no reason. |
Kooshti
Bargain Booze
26
|
Posted - 2015.08.07 17:15:14 -
[44] - Quote
Kaivar Lancer wrote:Not much we can do. PLEX holders have no reason to sell.
Now, if CCP introduced a regular tax or fee for holding a PLEX, we can expect PLEX to flood the market. The fee needn't be large, perhaps 0.01% of the median Jita value per day. People would be more compelled to only buy a PLEX when they need it, as opposed to hoarding it for no reason.
no my rl money doesnt really get taxed for sitting around so neither should my plex
|
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
3578
|
Posted - 2015.08.07 17:21:34 -
[45] - Quote
Kaivar Lancer wrote:Not much we can do. PLEX holders have no reason to sell.
Now, if CCP introduced a regular tax or fee for holding a PLEX, we can expect PLEX to flood the market. The fee needn't be large, perhaps 0.01% of the median Jita value per day. People would be more compelled to only buy a PLEX when they need it, as opposed to hoarding it for no reason. It's not "no reason". It's protection against continuing price rises, or as an investment.
Know a Frozen fan? Check this out
Frozen fanfiction
|
Tackninja
Boob Heads Black Legion.
0
|
Posted - 2015.08.07 17:41:48 -
[46] - Quote
Quote:no my rl money doesnt really get taxed for sitting around so neither should my plex its like people investing in gold irl, plex is new eden gold
Actually it does. It is a type of capital gains tax. But still, EVE is not "real" world. So them applying a tax is plausible and would potentially help lower PLEX costs. |
Algarion Getz
Aideron Corp
50
|
Posted - 2015.08.07 18:17:56 -
[47] - Quote
Kaivar Lancer wrote:Not much we can do. PLEX holders have no reason to sell.
Now, if CCP introduced a regular tax or fee for holding a PLEX, we can expect PLEX to flood the market. The fee needn't be large, perhaps 0.01% of the median Jita value per day. People would be more compelled to only buy a PLEX when they need it, as opposed to hoarding it for no reason. A fee pff, this is EVE not WOW. CCP should add a 30 day expiration timer to PLEX. When it reaches 0, the PLEX deletes itself and the EVE client plays a video of a smiling Hilmar, lighting a cigar with 20Gé¼ bill. This would end all the PLEX hoarding. |
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1187
|
Posted - 2015.08.07 18:34:14 -
[48] - Quote
Demand exceeds supply ... price rises. So there is likely too much ISK in the game and too many players want to buy PLEX. The other explanation that the EvE players got poorer in RL does not sound plausible. Also I don't think a hypothetical decreasing number of players "favors" the ones who sell PLEX to fund their PvP.
I'm my own NPC alt.
|
Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
32154
|
Posted - 2015.08.07 18:34:47 -
[49] - Quote
suddenly I can't figure out how to edit my signature. I want to add the Giffen good post to it.
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
|
DaReaper
Net 7
2460
|
Posted - 2015.08.07 19:29:18 -
[50] - Quote
TL;DR too much salt i am sure.. but my response to these is the same..
So?
You can make 1b isk in about 4 hours in a c4 wormhole. If you and another friend run it you can make more.
It really is not hat hard to make 1b isk.
OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!
Yes i am optimistic about eve.. i'm giving it till dec 31st 2016 before i doom n gloom
|
|
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
8945
|
Posted - 2015.08.07 20:13:42 -
[51] - Quote
DaReaper wrote:
It really is not hat hard to make 1b isk.
That's the problem right there, in my opinion.
Remember when a million was huge? I do.
I was over the moon when my wallet hit 100m. And I earned it. I didn't buy it from CCP.
Then came PLEX. CCP's answer to attracting all those millennials coming of age into the game. Now a billion is nothing. I feel barely adequate with my current worth of around 140b.
What a failed experiment PLEX turned out to be for actual gamers. Great for CCP, though, so it's here to stay. Unfortunately.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
|
Vortexo VonBrenner
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord
2079
|
Posted - 2015.08.07 20:25:40 -
[52] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote: I feel barely adequate with my current worth of around 140b.
You feel inadequate, yes? I see. *scribble scribble Tell me about your mother...
ITT: ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED?
|
Nicolai Serkanner
Jebediah Kerman's Junkyard and Spaceship Parts Co. Brave Collective
450
|
Posted - 2015.08.07 20:34:18 -
[53] - Quote
B0RG 0VERLORD wrote:well i disagree,i think prices of plex will start to fall when supply and demand slopes,the amount of users buying will drop due to less people playing eve,numbers say we dropped 10000 members online in the last month(since fuzziesov),
so less people = less plex being bought
thanks
Funny though that so far, you, and all the other EvE is doomed sayers, have been wrong, because the price of PLEX has been increasing again and again. |
Nicolai Serkanner
Jebediah Kerman's Junkyard and Spaceship Parts Co. Brave Collective
450
|
Posted - 2015.08.07 20:35:58 -
[54] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:DaReaper wrote:
It really is not hat hard to make 1b isk.
That's the problem right there, in my opinion. Remember when a million was huge? I do. I was over the moon when my wallet hit 100m. And I earned it. I didn't buy it from CCP. Then came PLEX. CCP's answer to attracting all those millennials coming of age into the game. Now a billion is nothing. I feel barely adequate with my current worth of around 140b. What a failed experiment PLEX turned out to be for actual gamers. Great for CCP, though, so it's here to stay. Unfortunately. Mr Epeen
You might feel adequate; doesn't mean you are.
|
La Rynx
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
341
|
Posted - 2015.08.07 20:40:47 -
[55] - Quote
a some are getting closer...
not the value of plex is rising! the value of isk is decreasing!
Atomic Virulent : "You can't spell DOUCHE. without CODE."
|
Hal Morsh
Delusions of Granduer Two Drink Minimum
371
|
Posted - 2015.08.07 21:03:02 -
[56] - Quote
The higher plex goes, the more I feel like spending 20$ on some space goodies.
Last time I did it I had a blast with all that isk.
Dun'Gal > Hal is simply an imperfect ai, though if drunkeness ever gets programmed into ai's I foresee both a hilarious and tragic end to humanity.
|
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
3583
|
Posted - 2015.08.07 21:07:30 -
[57] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:suddenly I can't figure out how to edit my signature. I want to add the Giffen good post to it. Your name at the top, forum settings.
B0RG 0VERLORD wrote:well i disagree,i think prices of plex will start to fall when supply and demand slopes,the amount of users buying will drop due to less people playing eve,numbers say we dropped 10000 members online in the last month(since fuzziesov),
so less people = less plex being bought
thanks I looked at eve-offline. The average number of players on-line, averaged over a week or more, has been constant at 21000 for over 6 weeks. There was no drop of 10,000 from the new sov. In fact, the steady decline we've been having all year came to an end when the new sov rules hit.
Know a Frozen fan? Check this out
Frozen fanfiction
|
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
16829
|
Posted - 2015.08.07 21:09:04 -
[58] - Quote
At the end of the day, I think CCP are going to be confronted with the necessity of lowering their price point. It may seem counter-intuitive, but they're better off with 15 customers paying $10 each than they are with 10 customers paying $15 each. And not just a bit better - a lot better off.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
|
Nicolai Serkanner
Jebediah Kerman's Junkyard and Spaceship Parts Co. Brave Collective
450
|
Posted - 2015.08.07 21:19:48 -
[59] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:At the end of the day, I think CCP are going to be confronted with the necessity of lowering their price point. It may seem counter-intuitive, but they're better off with 15 customers paying $10 each than they are with 10 customers paying $15 each. And not just a bit better - a lot better off.
Also ingame.
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
25532
|
Posted - 2015.08.07 21:21:33 -
[60] - Quote
Also, can we get the difference between GÇ£lessGÇ¥ and GÇ£fewerGÇ¥ right, please?
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
|
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
16830
|
Posted - 2015.08.07 21:22:01 -
[61] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Also, can we get the difference between GÇ£lessGÇ¥ and GÇ£fewerGÇ¥ right, please?
Hopefully
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
|
Jacob Gault
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2015.08.07 21:28:28 -
[62] - Quote
You know it be good if more plex cards get seed help keep the cost around 1b and under! You can't tell me people will stop selling them if they stay around 1b.
Or.
CCP could do a bigger plex sale hoping to flood the market with more of them.. I would like to see them go for $10 a pop.. I bet it would flood the markert hard.. only would do it for 30 day with limit of 1 per account being sold.. just idea |
Hal Morsh
Delusions of Granduer Two Drink Minimum
371
|
Posted - 2015.08.07 21:41:13 -
[63] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Also, can we get the difference between GÇ£lessGÇ¥ and GÇ£fewerGÇ¥ right, please?
A thumbs down button would solve so many of your issues. Figure that one out.
Dun'Gal > Hal is simply an imperfect ai, though if drunkeness ever gets programmed into ai's I foresee both a hilarious and tragic end to humanity.
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
25532
|
Posted - 2015.08.07 21:42:14 -
[64] - Quote
Hal Morsh wrote:Tippia wrote:Also, can we get the difference between GÇ£lessGÇ¥ and GÇ£fewerGÇ¥ right, please? A thumbs down button would solve so many of your issues. Figure that one out. Cry more. Countable and uncountable words is not rocket surgery.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
Primary This Rifter
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
890
|
Posted - 2015.08.07 21:51:29 -
[65] - Quote
Nicolai Serkanner wrote:Malcanis wrote:At the end of the day, I think CCP are going to be confronted with the necessity of lowering their price point. It may seem counter-intuitive, but they're better off with 15 customers paying $10 each than they are with 10 customers paying $15 each. And not just a bit better - a lot better off. Also ingame. CCP doesn't control the price ingame. A price reduction ingame would be a side effect of what Malcanis is proposing. |
Nicolai Serkanner
Jebediah Kerman's Junkyard and Spaceship Parts Co. Brave Collective
452
|
Posted - 2015.08.07 21:56:24 -
[66] - Quote
Primary This Rifter wrote:Nicolai Serkanner wrote:Malcanis wrote:At the end of the day, I think CCP are going to be confronted with the necessity of lowering their price point. It may seem counter-intuitive, but they're better off with 15 customers paying $10 each than they are with 10 customers paying $15 each. And not just a bit better - a lot better off. Also ingame. CCP doesn't control the price ingame. A price reduction ingame would be a side effect of what Malcanis is proposing.
I didn't say what exact effect the price would have ingame, only better ;)
|
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
8949
|
Posted - 2015.08.07 22:02:09 -
[67] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Hal Morsh wrote:Tippia wrote:Also, can we get the difference between GÇ£lessGÇ¥ and GÇ£fewerGÇ¥ right, please? A thumbs down button would solve so many of your issues. Figure that one out. Cry more. Countable and uncountable words is not rocket surgery. Just yesterday I did surgery on a live atomic bomb while passing the time waiting for FO4 to be released by playing FO3.
No rocket surgery of late, though.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
|
Panthe3 Black
The Branded Few Test Alliance Please Ignore
8
|
Posted - 2015.08.08 02:53:32 -
[68] - Quote
come on 2b pr plex woot watch my wallet grow |
Daerrol
Krieger Industries Inc. Phoebe Freeport Republic
219
|
Posted - 2015.08.08 03:04:59 -
[69] - Quote
I found 3 Paycheques while cleaning m car today. Going to PLEX me a new Carrier/Marauder/Dread tonight. #noshame #don'tbejelly |
Lulu Lunette
Custodes Olim United Systems of Aridia
67
|
Posted - 2015.08.08 03:06:33 -
[70] - Quote
So much for a PLEX now
@lunettelulu7
|
|
Kinete Jenius
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
56
|
Posted - 2015.08.08 03:31:04 -
[71] - Quote
Ioci wrote:They were floating around a billion just before the ISBox policy changes too.
Many threads were made.
Then they died. Only absolute morons were paying "around 1b" for plex before the REPEATER policy change.
I was still buying daily for 830m AT MOST during that era. So I never really saw a drop in prices.
Mr Epeen wrote:That's the problem right there, in my opinion. Remember when a million was huge? I do. I was over the moon when my wallet hit 100m. And I earned it. I didn't buy it from CCP. Then came PLEX. CCP's answer to attracting all those millennials coming of age into the game. Now a billion is nothing. I feel barely adequate with my current worth of around 140b. What a failed experiment PLEX turned out to be for actual gamers. Great for CCP, though, so it's here to stay. Unfortunately. Mr Epeen Far from being a failure for the gamers. If nothing else once PLex was introduced gold spammers pretty much vanished.
I would argue there are plenty of other things that could be listed as being good for the playerbase but what would be the point? |
Tiddle Jr
Galvanized Inc.
365
|
Posted - 2015.08.08 04:23:55 -
[72] - Quote
Someone told me once - oh boy these officier gear is so dqmn expensive do to rare factor... hmm this damn plex like dirt is almost everywhere but cost higher than some of the officier mods already.
|
Algarion Getz
Aideron Corp
51
|
Posted - 2015.08.08 04:51:41 -
[73] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:At the end of the day, I think CCP are going to be confronted with the necessity of lowering their price point. It may seem counter-intuitive, but they're better off with 15 customers paying $10 each than they are with 10 customers paying $15 each. And not just a bit better - a lot better off. 15$ for a PLEX? PLEX costs 20Gé¼ (~ 21$ at the moment) here. A few years ago, when Euro was worth more, it was almost ~30$ for PLEX.
Where can you get it for 15$? |
Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
32157
|
Posted - 2015.08.08 08:01:07 -
[74] - Quote
A six pack from the CCP store, from a US ip address.
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
|
Shallanna Yassavi
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
10
|
Posted - 2015.08.08 09:29:25 -
[75] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:At the end of the day, I think CCP are going to be confronted with the necessity of lowering their price point. It may seem counter-intuitive, but they're better off with 15 customers paying $10 each than they are with 10 customers paying $15 each. And not just a bit better - a lot better off. That's 5 more who might buy Aurum, for one.
A signature :o
|
Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
61
|
Posted - 2015.08.08 11:06:42 -
[76] - Quote
Adriana Nolen wrote:I'm sure all of us are space rich but
I don't see what the issue is, the players set the price. |
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
72
|
Posted - 2015.08.08 11:30:10 -
[77] - Quote
DaReaper wrote:TL;DR too much salt i am sure.. but my response to these is the same..
So?
You can make 1b isk in about 4 hours in a c4 wormhole. If you and another friend run it you can make more.
It really is not hat hard to make 1b isk.
1 bill plex prices aren't the problem. It's how fast the prices rose to that amount that is raising alarms of a Plex Inflation. At this rate the plex prices are gonna hit the 2 bill mark by the end of this year.
|
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
72
|
Posted - 2015.08.08 11:43:43 -
[78] - Quote
Webvan wrote:Tippia wrote:Wohoo! More cash for less. \o/ Daniela Doran wrote:Wrong! People will stop plexing and either quit because too expensive or pay the 3 months/6months package from account management. Either way is bad because the rising plex prices is due to the rapid decline in subscribers and this is still summer. Makes you wonder what's gonna happen to eve when school starts. Do you have any actual numbers on that decline? And have you taken into account the regular player activity behaviour during summer and early autumn? Also keep in mind the bulk of the playerbase is in their 30's here. Some 60% I think it was. 10-15% in their 40's. ~25% in their 20's. A large percentage of players according to CCP are into tech, computer related, IT jobs. Why does it matter when school starts? So wrong on so many things, Dan.
I'm just going by the rise in number of online users I see during the summer versus the school semesters. In summer of 2013 during peak times the online numbers was around 42k - 50k versus an average of 28k-34k during peak time school months. This summer during peak times the online numbers is around 27k-33k versus an average of 17k-22k during peak time school months. With this trend it's safe to assume that more younger people from ages 17-25 play eve more in the summer time. |
Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
61
|
Posted - 2015.08.08 11:45:24 -
[79] - Quote
Tackninja wrote:Quote:no my rl money doesnt really get taxed for sitting around so neither should my plex its like people investing in gold irl, plex is new eden gold Actually it does. It is a type of capital gains tax. But still, EVE is not "real" world. So them applying a tax is plausible and would potentially help lower PLEX costs.
Don't see the point, they're just an in-game item so shouldn't be treated any differently.
There will be a point at which people are not prepared to buy them and then you will reach a level of more stability. Although it may be difficult to see when it reaches that point if a lot of players are buying them to hang on to them to make a profit. But that's the risk they take. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2352
|
Posted - 2015.08.08 11:55:40 -
[80] - Quote
As long as plex investors are allowed to drive the price of plex sales, they will continue to rise in price simply due to the actions of the investors. This is irregardless of any kind of supply & demand equation. Much like house prices rise despite not actually creating anything new simply because someone bought them and sold them three months later. The investors have control of the market and a steady rise in price with the odd price crash suits them perfectly. |
|
Salvos Rhoska
1244
|
Posted - 2015.08.08 12:02:08 -
[81] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:DaReaper wrote:TL;DR too much salt i am sure.. but my response to these is the same..
So?
You can make 1b isk in about 4 hours in a c4 wormhole. If you and another friend run it you can make more.
It really is not hat hard to make 1b isk. 1 bill plex prices aren't the problem. It's how fast the prices rose to that amount that is raising alarms of a Plex Inflation. At this rate the plex prices are gonna hit the 2 bill mark by the end of this year.
This is countermanded by the fact the higher value of PLEX rises in isk, the more incentive there is for players to RLM them to earn isk ingame.
You are correct that if the trend contiuned without that consideration, it would rise above 2b, but unless a cartel of PLEX holders managed to deliberately and at great effort shoehorn PLEX sales in at incremental values in each hub, PLEX will still enter the market from independants buying PLEX tonsell at isk value, and each unit the cartel sells would help match demand.
What concerns me more, is identifying and quantifying the largest PLEX consumers ingame. To my mind, this includes four groups:
-Multibox Miners, which are very sensitive to PLEX price changes in direct relation to how much ISK they can earn with them in accordance with mineral/ice prices in a given 30day period. This is the easiest to analyze. When the cost of PLEXing exceeds whatthe miner alt can produce in a month, they drop the account, leading to less demand. And not just for one multi-boxing miner, but ALL of them, at once, unless they are interested in training that toon at a loss while mining for aome other future purpose. Miners desubbing accounts should reduce demand, and lower prices. -Multitraining accounts, which is the province mostly of old and extremely rich vets, for whom the game itself has become a means to an end in terms of having pilots to do what they want with. These players are not sensitive to any ingame cost of any resource, merely CCP changes and their own enthusiasm with the game overall. -Persons who buy/sell characters. Their influence is difficult to guage owing to the sometimes astronomical costs and the ambiguity of tracing their activity. Nonetheless, PLEX sales run commensurate both as a means for them to raise capital to increase their stable by purchase of saleable capsuleers to sell for profit, but also indirectly in the sales of PLEX for other players raising capital to purchase those pilots from them. -And finally, the mythical PLEX traders. Do they exist? How organised and deliberate are they? Their ability to manipulate the market should be marginal as detailed above earlier, but there is a critical mass beyond which they can, at horrific temporary losses, raise prices high enough to recoup those losses by dumping at a certain threshold.
Sum total of these influences the price of PLEX, as the largest coherent groups of PLEX consumers and suppliers to the market.
My own gut conclusion, is the higher PLEX prices rise, the more an indication it is of less active accounts, in almost every instance, considering all variables. This is corroborated by looking at public and available server population figures.
Two caveats on a 1 year window from 2014: -Industry changes: Especially salvage/mineral conversion rates. This should have reduced inflation, and slowed PLEX price rises. Either this has resulted then either in people unsubbing, or, indirectly isk being invested elsewhere than in PLEXing an account. -Sov changes now: By reading of feedback, it seems many people have cut back on maintaining multiple accounts, which again should have resulted in less demand for PLEX and reduced prices.
Considering those, perhaps the inverse of my previous conclusion makes more sense in terms of account behavior. That current population is dumping isk into PLEX, rather than subbing. Which typically means they are on their way out, and no longer as confident in the games future, and expending ingame resources rather than RLM.
------------
|
Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
334
|
Posted - 2015.08.14 11:42:31 -
[82] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:In economic theory there is something called Giffen good (good, as in "goods and services"). These are goods which have a reversed supply-demand curve. That is, an increase in price results in a decrease in supply. It is possible that the PLEX is a Giffen good. To see how this could be, first let me recast what I mean by "the price of the PLEX".
Consider how much Real Money I need to buy, say, 10 billion ISK via PLEX. As the ISK value of the PLEX increases, the price, in Real Money, of 10 billion ISK decreases. Normally one would expect this to increase the demand for PLEX. As the Real Money cost of 10 billion ISK drops, more players will opt to make the purchase. But if the PLEX is a Giffen good, then the reverse happens. The mechanism may be:
The number of people who would want a supercap is limited by the number of characters who have skills to fly them, not the super's price. Dropping the price of supers will have only a small effect on their demand. (I'm assuming a player does not want spare supers sitting about, they want most every one logged off in space with a pilot sitting in it.)
A player with little ISK can buy a super by using Real Money to buy PLEX, selling the PLEX for ISK and buying the super. As the ISK value of a PLEX increases, the number of PLEX the player need buy goes down. Increased ISK price leads to a reduced supply of PLEX. (Or, to put it another way, the decreasing price of ISK leads to decreasing demand for PLEX). This makes the PLEX a Giffen good.
A numerical example:
Say the ISK price of the PLEX increases by 10%. Any player deciding to make a big purchase now needs to buy 10% fewer PLEX. Lets say as a result of the better price, 5% more players decide to make such a purchase. Yes, the total players buying PLEX increases, and the total ISK bought increases, but as each now buys fewer PLEX, the total supply of PLEX goes down. Again, we have a Giffen good.
What this means for CCP: The increasing ISK value of the PLEX would reduce revenue, and hence is not in CCPGÇÖs best interest.
Your definition of a Giffen good is wrong. With a Giffen good, when prices go up, consumers buy even more, which is unintuitive, hence it's also called Giffen paradox. This has nothing to do with supply of the good in question. Supply in the case of a Giffen good behaves according to the standard model of supply-demand.
A good example of the Giffen effect I found on the internet:
A person has a daily budget of 3Gé¼ for lunch. He/She buys a piece of bread for 1Gé¼ and meat for 2Gé¼. Now the price of bread goes up to 1.50Gé¼. The person is still at his/her 3Gé¼ budget and therefore rather buys 2 pieces of bread and no meat.
The bread is the Giffen good. Normally the price hike should have brought lower demand. But since bread is food and therefore an essential product, we can not skip it. We could replace it with something else that is food, but the meat is too expensive. So within our budget we buy more bread despite the price increase.
I can't comment on the PLEX since I can't get enough data (I'm on a break from eve for more than a year now). I just couldn't let people with a wrong impression of what a Giffen good is.
Also, can someone explain what this thread is about?-á (Relax ! I'm just quoting Holgrak Blacksmith here.)
When life gives you lemons, swap letters and poof: melons, solemn melons.
|
flakeys
Arkham Innovations
3204
|
Posted - 2015.08.14 12:16:20 -
[83] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:DaReaper wrote:TL;DR too much salt i am sure.. but my response to these is the same..
So?
You can make 1b isk in about 4 hours in a c4 wormhole. If you and another friend run it you can make more.
It really is not hat hard to make 1b isk. 1 bill plex prices aren't the problem. It's how fast the prices rose to that amount that is raising alarms of a Plex Inflation. At this rate the plex prices are gonna hit the 2 bill mark by the end of this year. Also, not everyone has a non-interrupted access to a darn C4 WH.
Nope , but everyone has acces to the high-sec markets .
We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.
|
Mehashi 'Kho
Black Fox Marauders Spaceship Bebop
158
|
Posted - 2015.08.14 16:31:35 -
[84] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:irregardless
On topic, I'd buy plex on a bit more of a whim if our european prices were nearly as good as the us deals. Instead I sub as it's dramatically cheaper and spend a few days each month grinding for isk to spend, around 1 bil play-money each month. If plex were closer to sub prices I'd be buying plexes (1 per account) and selling them on the market so I could just play my fave gameplay without any grinding.
That cost disparity really becomes noticeable at 4 accounts as I have, or more as I know others have. Just throwing in my own personal reason why I'm not buying plexes despite being part of the target market of people who would rather pay for the convenience of a full wallet. |
Vauss Dutan
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
49
|
Posted - 2015.08.15 03:01:40 -
[85] - Quote
I logged in about a month ago using the 4 hours to buy a plex. I had 800mil, I'll get a plex I thought. Nope. |
Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
32170
|
Posted - 2015.08.15 03:23:30 -
[86] - Quote
At the least, you have a reason to petition for your hours for PLEX reset.
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
|
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
3623
|
Posted - 2015.08.15 21:53:36 -
[87] - Quote
Jill Xelitras wrote:Vincent Athena wrote:In economic theory there is something called Giffen good (good, as in "goods and services"). These are goods which have a reversed supply-demand curve. That is, an increase in price results in a decrease in supply. It is possible that the PLEX is a Giffen good. To see how this could be, first let me recast what I mean by "the price of the PLEX".
Consider how much Real Money I need to buy, say, 10 billion ISK via PLEX. As the ISK value of the PLEX increases, the price, in Real Money, of 10 billion ISK decreases. Normally one would expect this to increase the demand for PLEX. As the Real Money cost of 10 billion ISK drops, more players will opt to make the purchase. But if the PLEX is a Giffen good, then the reverse happens. The mechanism may be:
The number of people who would want a supercap is limited by the number of characters who have skills to fly them, not the super's price. Dropping the price of supers will have only a small effect on their demand. (I'm assuming a player does not want spare supers sitting about, they want most every one logged off in space with a pilot sitting in it.)
A player with little ISK can buy a super by using Real Money to buy PLEX, selling the PLEX for ISK and buying the super. As the ISK value of a PLEX increases, the number of PLEX the player need buy goes down. Increased ISK price leads to a reduced supply of PLEX. (Or, to put it another way, the decreasing price of ISK leads to decreasing demand for PLEX). This makes the PLEX a Giffen good.
A numerical example:
Say the ISK price of the PLEX increases by 10%. Any player deciding to make a big purchase now needs to buy 10% fewer PLEX. Lets say as a result of the better price, 5% more players decide to make such a purchase. Yes, the total players buying PLEX increases, and the total ISK bought increases, but as each now buys fewer PLEX, the total supply of PLEX goes down. Again, we have a Giffen good.
What this means for CCP: The increasing ISK value of the PLEX would reduce revenue, and hence is not in CCPGÇÖs best interest. Your definition of a Giffen good is wrong. With a Giffen good, when prices go up, consumers buy even more, which is unintuitive, hence it's also called Giffen paradox. This has nothing to do with supply of the good in question. Supply in the case of a Giffen good behaves according to the standard model of supply-demand. A good example of the Giffen effect I found on the internet: A person has a daily budget of 3Gé¼ for lunch. He/She buys a piece of bread for 1Gé¼ and meat for 2Gé¼. Now the price of bread goes up to 1.50Gé¼. The person is still at his/her 3Gé¼ budget and therefore rather buys 2 pieces of bread and no meat. The bread is the Giffen good. Normally the price hike should have brought lower demand. But since bread is food and therefore an essential product, we can not skip it. We could replace it with something else that is food, but the meat is too expensive. So within our budget we buy more bread despite the price increase. I can't comment on the PLEX since I can't get enough data (I'm on a break from eve for more than a year now). I just couldn't let people with a wrong impression of what a Giffen good is. Yeah, its not a perfect use of the term. But here is what I was trying to say:
Giffen good: When the price goes up, demand goes up. Conversely: When price goes down, demand goes down. In Eve: The price of ISK is going down. That is the amount of real money needed to buy a big block of ISK is dropping, ISK is getting cheaper. So what's happening to the demand for ISK? Well, we cannot really buy ISK, we buy PLEX, and it could well be that the demand for PLEX is going down due to the drop in price of ISK. Now, that's not really a proper use of the term "Giffen good". But my point I made in my first post remains: The decreasing cost of ISK is causing a reduction in the demand for PLEX. Normally you would expect the opposite. If you get more ISK per PLEX, you would expect the number of PLEX sold by CCP to increase. But is may well be the opposite is in fact occurring.
Know a Frozen fan? Check this out
Frozen fanfiction
|
Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
966
|
Posted - 2015.08.15 21:55:28 -
[88] - Quote
All I can say is that I'm ISKlovin' it.
Star Jump Drive A new way to traverse the galaxy.
I invented Tiericide
|
Adriana Nolen
Sama Guild
117
|
Posted - 2015.09.08 22:50:53 -
[89] - Quote
One month later. 1.1B isk. Da fuq |
TigerXtrm
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
1254
|
Posted - 2015.09.08 23:01:37 -
[90] - Quote
Keep on risin' baby.
My YouTube Channel - EVE Tutorials & other game related things!
My Website - Blogs, Livestreams & Forums
|
|
Skeln Thargensen
katana spelunking trips
588
|
Posted - 2015.09.08 23:13:39 -
[91] - Quote
lovely.
for people with jobs that don't need a videogame job
forums. -áserious business.
|
Tiddle Jr
Galvanized Inc.
473
|
Posted - 2015.09.08 23:16:33 -
[92] - Quote
1.5b by the end of the year. |
Eliram Kahoudi
Big Fluffy Bunnies
101
|
Posted - 2015.09.08 23:44:43 -
[93] - Quote
im dumping all my plex on the market as soon as it hits 1.5, cause i bought in at 980 |
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1486
|
Posted - 2015.09.09 00:08:06 -
[94] - Quote
With PLEX below a billion you can passively PLEX alt accounts with losec/null PI logging in a few times a month .
With current PLEX/PI prices you now need to feed those accounts extra ISK to make up the shortfall.
How annoying. |
Forum Toon
State War Academy Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2015.09.09 00:25:49 -
[95] - Quote
when I returned to eve with this new account I thought I'll use the free plex I got for extra 30 days... to my surprise it was 1b already as I logged in.
going to keep it and see how much it will get :P |
Webvan
All Kill No Skill
13847
|
Posted - 2015.09.09 00:52:27 -
[96] - Quote
Tiddle Jr wrote:1.5b by the end of the year. Could be, if the world economies takes a sudden downturn beyond what it is now. Well, or more like crashes. It's taken a number of years to get from 200m to 1b, something pretty significant could drive it up fast though. Like, what if all the nuts are right and a 2.5mile asteroid does hit Puerto Rico in 7 to 15 days as they predict... lol, that would send world markets into turmoil and maybe all there would be left is PLEX rotting in players item hangers. Of course no one could connect to the interwebs anyway, but besides the point hehe
I'm in it for the money
Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12
|
Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
1009
|
Posted - 2015.09.09 00:58:06 -
[97] - Quote
What's the price of PLEX in China?
Star Jump Drive A new way to traverse the galaxy.
I invented Tiericide
|
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1486
|
Posted - 2015.09.09 01:00:03 -
[98] - Quote
Val'Dore wrote:What's the price of PLEX in China?
Last I heard 3 to 4 billion.
This is my take on the issue (though have not done any economics for 20 oodd years):
Because satisficing is a factor the elasticity of supply of PLEX can actually be negative.
In plain English - people tend to buy jand cash in just enough PLEX to get the ISK they currently need and no more. This means if ISK/PLEX prices rise less PLEX are needed to meet the demand for ISK.
The end result is a bit counterintuitive. Normal if the ISK return for PLEX rises you expect the supply to go up but in the case of PLEX the more ISK you get per PLEX the less will appear on the market. A player formerly selling a PLEX every second month may get buy selling one every third month.
This is potentially a positive feedback loop. The higher the price, the less PLEX are seeded, and this causes an a rise to higher prices again. Rinse and repeat.
|
Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
32268
|
Posted - 2015.09.09 01:08:14 -
[99] - Quote
Called a Giffen Good, see my sig.
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
|
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1486
|
Posted - 2015.09.09 01:27:35 -
[100] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:Called a Giffen Good, see my sig.
That makes sense.
It also explains why 10% PLEX sales have minimal effect on how many PLEX get sold in game (as opposed to stockpiled).
I see two reasons for this reducing CCP cash income.
1) As ISK/PLEX ratios rise less PLEX needs to be bought hence less income for CCP. 2) As ISK/PLEX rise players who partially subsidise an ALT with plex may unsub that account if they cannot justify full time subs. |
|
Brutus Utama
Fusion Enterprises Ltd Phoenix Company Alliance
55
|
Posted - 2015.09.09 12:07:28 -
[101] - Quote
The price of plex is becoming too high i have had to unsub my miners as its not worth it i had them to make isk but with the increase of isk price for plex they barely pay for themselves and why would i spend so much time grinding just to have the accounts for show they dont provide me anything anymore just enough isk to buy the plex to keep that account going they make me no profit anymore...
i dont see the point in putting the little time i have into mining to get nothing out of it....except another month of grinding to get the same result.... i believe that is called insanity |
Flynn Fetladral
Alekhine's Gun
557
|
Posted - 2015.09.09 12:40:46 -
[102] - Quote
The space rich get richer, the poor get space poorer. Last time I sold a PLEX the market value was around 360 million ISK but that was in a time when a Tengu cost well over a billion just for the hull.
Oh and we used a little officer mods. KIDDING! We used a lot of officers mods, A LOT! Because we donGÇÖt :censored: around in low-sec.
@flynnfetladral on #tweetfleet
|
Odie McCracken
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
26
|
Posted - 2015.09.09 12:48:54 -
[103] - Quote
I'm happy to see this, no damn grinding if I want isk :) |
Anize Oramara
The Arch Dashing Dashers
373
|
Posted - 2015.09.09 12:49:13 -
[104] - Quote
Considering there are multiple ways to make over 500mill a day playing casually, no, only the lazy get poorer.
Much like most of real life. |
La Rynx
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
374
|
Posted - 2015.09.09 13:16:06 -
[105] - Quote
Hasikan Miallok wrote:Rain6637 wrote:Called a Giffen Good, see my sig. That makes sense.
No it does not. i read the source and googled more information.
"Giffen" describes rising demand with increasing price. The giffen paradoxon happens to "inferior goods!" and other "details".
"If" there is something, then its market speculation.
Hope the frozen fan fiction is better...
And and the "10percent sales"... Are still more expensive than the Plex prices from other legal resellers. The wan't make any dent. Why should someone throw his PLEX on the market to lower the price?
Atomic Virulent : "You can't spell DOUCHE. without CODE."
|
Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12342
|
Posted - 2015.09.09 13:24:46 -
[106] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:Considering there are multiple ways to make over 500mill a day playing casually, no, only the lazy get poorer.
Much like most of real life.
Sadly, you hit the nail on the head. People complaining about PLEX prices are complaining because they are the types that 'grind' for plex to play for 'free' and are feeling a pinch because they have to grind more to plex. Most of them used to spend a little time at the end of a month, grind up a plex and forget about it for 30 days, now that's harder to do.
Most will not realize that it's their isk making methods and their expectations (read: feelings of entitlement fueled by their experiences with cheap plex in the past) that's the problem.
PLEX exists so that people who are actually good at using time to make isk can trade that to someone who either isn't that good at it, or who doesn't like having to make isk and just wants to play in usually non-profitiable but fun ways. But because it was so cheap, 'work-a-day' players saw it as something else: "An almost free ride". Now that is ending (as it should) and they don't like it.
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6836
|
Posted - 2015.09.09 13:25:41 -
[107] - Quote
La Rynx wrote:No it does not. i read the source and googled more information. Oh snap, that's quite a callout there.
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12342
|
Posted - 2015.09.09 13:27:02 -
[108] - Quote
Brutus Utama wrote:The price of plex is becoming too high i have had to unsub my miners as its not worth it i had them to make isk but with the increase of isk price for plex they barely pay for themselves and why would i spend so much time grinding just to have the accounts for show they dont provide me anything anymore just enough isk to buy the plex to keep that account going they make me no profit anymore...
i dont see the point in putting the little time i have into mining to get nothing out of it....except another month of grinding to get the same result.... i believe that is called insanity
The actual insanity was having mining characters that could both pay for themselves in temrs of game time AND provide you with a profit at the exact same time simply by mining.
|
La Rynx
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
374
|
Posted - 2015.09.09 13:29:22 -
[109] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:The actual insanity was having mining characters that could both pay for themselves in temrs of game time AND provide you with a profit at the exact same time simply by mining.
So since the is-boxer-abuse ban, everything is golden?
Atomic Virulent : "You can't spell DOUCHE. without CODE."
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6836
|
Posted - 2015.09.09 13:34:34 -
[110] - Quote
La Rynx wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:The actual insanity was having mining characters that could both pay for themselves in temrs of game time AND provide you with a profit at the exact same time simply by mining.
So since the is-boxer-abuse ban, everything is golden? The people who used a ton of accounts played a lot, certainly not playing the "i can barely plex myself" game.
People did argue they made plex more expensive, now they're greatly reduced in their multiboxing.... well...
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
|
chelly Dian
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
51
|
Posted - 2015.09.09 13:50:10 -
[111] - Quote
1bil for 30 days game time ?
Cheap. |
Anize Oramara
The Arch Dashing Dashers
375
|
Posted - 2015.09.09 13:56:15 -
[112] - Quote
chelly Dian wrote:1bil for 30 days game time ?
Cheap. I figure I'd probably call it quits if it takes me more than a week to make the isk, so around 2 to 3bill I guess at my current rate of making isk. I have a lot of games I spend real money on and currently the process of making the isk in game is still enjoyable for me. It'll just be one of those things, nothing worth getting salty over. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6836
|
Posted - 2015.09.09 14:05:04 -
[113] - Quote
I gotta take a hit of that Plex every 30 days or else I'm totally wrecked until I get some, you know how it is?
Time to get another plex...
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12345
|
Posted - 2015.09.09 14:34:33 -
[114] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:I gotta take a hit of that Plex every 30 days or else I'm totally wrecked until I get some, you know how it is?
A new picture of Alavaria Fera has been discovered!
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6836
|
Posted - 2015.09.09 14:36:09 -
[115] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:I gotta take a hit of that Plex every 30 days or else I'm totally wrecked until I get some, you know how it is?
A new picture of Alavaria Fera has been discovered! It's not free. "1b ISK in Jita"
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
Captain Awkward
Republic University Minmatar Republic
43
|
Posted - 2015.09.09 14:39:12 -
[116] - Quote
Many say the value of a item is determined by supply and demand. Actually they usually forget a third factor. And that is the ammount of money that is in the ecconomy.
Its so easy to get ISK these days. The increased price reflects that, even when supply and demand stay the same. |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2188
|
Posted - 2015.09.09 14:42:29 -
[117] - Quote
Brutus Utama wrote:The price of plex is becoming too high i have had to unsub my miners as its not worth it i had them to make isk but with the increase of isk price for plex they barely pay for themselves and why would i spend so much time grinding just to have the accounts for show they dont provide me anything anymore just enough isk to buy the plex to keep that account going they make me no profit anymore...
i dont see the point in putting the little time i have into mining to get nothing out of it....except another month of grinding to get the same result.... i believe that is called insanity
Have you ever though about paying with real money for your subs and not having to grind a single ISK for your gametime? |
Tosski
State War Academy Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2015.09.09 16:00:46 -
[118] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Brutus Utama wrote:The price of plex is becoming too high i have had to unsub my miners as its not worth it i had them to make isk but with the increase of isk price for plex they barely pay for themselves and why would i spend so much time grinding just to have the accounts for show they dont provide me anything anymore just enough isk to buy the plex to keep that account going they make me no profit anymore...
i dont see the point in putting the little time i have into mining to get nothing out of it....except another month of grinding to get the same result.... i believe that is called insanity Have you ever though about paying with real money for your subs and not having to grind a single ISK for your gametime?
Most people pay for their subs via plex cause they don't have the real life money to pay for it. If not for plexes they wouldn't be able to play. As the economy keeps getting worse in many parts of the world, I can see the demand for plexes slowly go up. But on the other hand if prices of plex keep going up, will be more and more that will not be able to play cause they can't afford them. Yes its easy to make ISK, but also easier to lose it.
To me the answer is a big isk sink item, something like titans, but that most anyone can get, good item and costs billions upon billions of ISK, people need a reason to buy more plex to flood the market to get the prices to drop again. |
Zifrian
Licentia Ex Vereor Phoebe Freeport Republic
1653
|
Posted - 2015.09.09 16:20:09 -
[119] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:Considering there are multiple ways to make over 500mill a day playing casually, no, only the lazy get poorer.
Much like most of real life. Sadly, you hit the nail on the head. People complaining about PLEX prices are complaining because they are the types that 'grind' for plex to play for 'free' and are feeling a pinch because they have to grind more to plex. Most of them used to spend a little time at the end of a month, grind up a plex and forget about it for 30 days, now that's harder to do. Most will not realize that it's their isk making methods and their expectations (read: feelings of entitlement fueled by their experiences with cheap plex in the past) that's the problem. PLEX exists so that people who are actually good at using time to make isk can trade that to someone who either isn't that good at it, or who doesn't like having to make isk and just wants to play in usually non-profitiable but fun ways. But because it was so cheap, 'work-a-day' players saw it as something else: "An almost free ride". Now that is ending (as it should) and they don't like it. But this was the same argument when people complained that it was 500mil then 800mil...etc.
Something has changed and it's clearly causing inflation in the price. Maybe it's just due to a small number of traders buying mass amounts of a limited supply. After the isboxer ban, demand clearly dropped but now it seems to have gone back to the previous upward slope.
In any case, I'm not sure supply and demand will correct, what many see as an imbalance in price. Be nice to see some current plex stats like last years fanfest though. That's the only way to know if there is a problem that is affecting subs.
GÇ£Any fool can criticize, condemn, and complain - and most fools do. GÇ¥ - Dale Carnegie
Maximze your Industry Potential! - Download EVE Isk per Hour!
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6836
|
Posted - 2015.09.09 16:36:51 -
[120] - Quote
Zifrian wrote:But this was the same argument when people complained that it was 500mil then 800mil...etc.
Something has changed and it's clearly causing inflation in the price. I've seen similar things posted on EVEO when it was 500mil then 800mil...etc.
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
|
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2189
|
Posted - 2015.09.09 17:05:01 -
[121] - Quote
Tosski wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Brutus Utama wrote:The price of plex is becoming too high i have had to unsub my miners as its not worth it i had them to make isk but with the increase of isk price for plex they barely pay for themselves and why would i spend so much time grinding just to have the accounts for show they dont provide me anything anymore just enough isk to buy the plex to keep that account going they make me no profit anymore...
i dont see the point in putting the little time i have into mining to get nothing out of it....except another month of grinding to get the same result.... i believe that is called insanity Have you ever though about paying with real money for your subs and not having to grind a single ISK for your gametime? Most people pay for their subs via plex cause they don't have the real life money to pay for it. If not for plexes they wouldn't be able to play. As the economy keeps getting worse in many parts of the world, I can see the demand for plexes slowly go up. But on the other hand if prices of plex keep going up, will be more and more that will not be able to play cause they can't afford them. Yes its easy to make ISK, but also easier to lose it. To me the answer is a big isk sink item, something like titans, but that most anyone can get, good item and costs billions upon billions of ISK, people need a reason to buy more plex to flood the market to get the prices to drop again.
If you can't spend 15$ a month on your entertainment, you should have more important stuff on your mind than the price of PLEX. |
lilol' me
Retribution Holdings Corp Retribution.
47
|
Posted - 2015.09.09 17:30:41 -
[122] - Quote
I get confused with these posts. what IS the right price for PLEX?
How do you know you wasn't getting it dirt cheap when it was 700mill? Maybe 1 billion is the right price or actually maybe its still too cheap.
How are you deciding what is the right value for a PLEX anyway |
Bagrat Skalski
Poseidaon
9379
|
Posted - 2015.09.09 17:35:56 -
[123] - Quote
The curve is starting to look somewhat logarithmic. Whatever that means....
Custom ship skins | Since 2014 | Character creator style "repaint" | Bring back the dream
|
Seven Koskanaiken
FinFleet Northern Coalition.
1639
|
Posted - 2015.09.09 17:45:03 -
[124] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Zifrian wrote:But this was the same argument when people complained that it was 500mil then 800mil...etc.
Something has changed and it's clearly causing inflation in the price. I've seen similar things posted on EVEO when it was 500mil then 800mil...etc.
"it's a bubble". |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2190
|
Posted - 2015.09.09 17:47:35 -
[125] - Quote
lilol' me wrote:I get confused with these posts. what IS the right price for PLEX?
How do you know you wasn't getting it dirt cheap when it was 700mill? Maybe 1 billion is the right price or actually maybe its still too cheap.
How are you deciding what is the right value for a PLEX anyway
The very same way everybody evaluate prices of everything. It's always too much unless they are the one selling it. Then it's grossly underpriced. |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
3643
|
Posted - 2015.09.09 18:17:30 -
[126] - Quote
lilol' me wrote:I get confused with these posts. what IS the right price for PLEX?
How do you know you wasn't getting it dirt cheap when it was 700mill? Maybe 1 billion is the right price or actually maybe its still too cheap.
How are you deciding what is the right value for a PLEX anyway Here are two other answers:
1) Whatever makes CCP the most money. Too low, and people will not buy them, as its not worth it. Too high, and people will buy them, but will not need to buy many to get what they want. In between, CCP makes the most money. The PLEX trade volume at Jita peaked when the PLEX was 500 million.
2) Whatever controls RMT the best.
Know a Frozen fan? Check this out
Frozen fanfiction
|
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Carpe Noctem.
2480
|
Posted - 2015.09.09 20:27:20 -
[127] - Quote
Poor: How am I gonna PLEX my sub to keep playing for free now?
Not Poor: Hnnnnnghhhhh.....I am so freaking hard right now thinking about how much ISK I will get the next time I buy a 6-pack of PLEX.
F
Would you like to know more?
|
Konnore
November 17th Fidelas Constans
9
|
Posted - 2015.09.09 20:51:38 -
[128] - Quote
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:Poor: How am I gonna PLEX my sub to keep playing for free now?
Not Poor: Hnnnnnghhhhh.....I am so freaking hard right now thinking about how much ISK I will get the next time I buy a 6-pack of PLEX.
F
and to whom exactly the rich will sell the plex? |
Dan Seavey Allier
Seavy Acquisitions
42
|
Posted - 2015.09.09 21:15:17 -
[129] - Quote
Konnore wrote:Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:Poor: How am I gonna PLEX my sub to keep playing for free now?
Not Poor: Hnnnnnghhhhh.....I am so freaking hard right now thinking about how much ISK I will get the next time I buy a 6-pack of PLEX.
F
and to whom exactly the rich will sell the plex?
Well, at the moment, all those fools in Jita offering a billion isk for less money I tip my dry cleaner every 2 weeks.
Dan
Honey Never Sleeps.
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6836
|
Posted - 2015.09.09 22:04:49 -
[130] - Quote
Well someone is looking forward to the 1b isk in jita
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
|
Konnore
November 17th Fidelas Constans
9
|
Posted - 2015.09.09 22:50:21 -
[131] - Quote
The PLEX was the best idea came out in my whole gaming history...
It holds the inner and the outter game economy in a balance.
It helps poor guys who live in poor countries by giving play time to buy the next month. (Like Greece, I live.) It also helps rich guys in rich countries who likes to give less time for in-game money making.
But I still believe that EVE Online is a very expensive game
I have 2 accounts and I need to pay monthly 28 euros. (imagine that in Greece right now the basic salary is 23 euros per day)
I'm rich in EVE and I can afford PLEX for 2 accounts even if it goes up to 3bil each, but many of my Corp mates thinking of shutting down their secondary and tertiary accounts. (some of them quit it already)
The question is CCP likes more money per account and less accounts or less money per acc with more accounts..!
Sorry for holding you that much. |
Martin Corwin
Emergente Struktur
39
|
Posted - 2015.09.09 23:57:22 -
[132] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Also, can we get the difference between GÇ£lessGÇ¥ and GÇ£fewerGÇ¥ right, please? Not everyone is a native speaker. Get that stick out of your arse. |
Aaron
Eternal Frontier
307
|
Posted - 2015.09.10 01:04:54 -
[133] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:DaReaper wrote:
It really is not hat hard to make 1b isk.
That's the problem right there, in my opinion. Remember when a million was huge? I do. I was over the moon when my wallet hit 100m. And I earned it. I didn't buy it from CCP. Then came PLEX. CCP's answer to attracting all those millennials coming of age into the game. Now a billion is nothing. I feel barely adequate with my current worth of around 140b. What a failed experiment PLEX turned out to be for actual gamers. Great for CCP, though, so it's here to stay. Unfortunately. Mr Epeen
You have a short memory. Plex was never an experiment, it was a way of stopping 3rd parties from setting up real life businesses that hired people to grind for isk which was sold to Eve players. Plex has stopped this practice, 100% success.
I would say we should prepare ourselves for more people leaving as it looks as if we will see plex prices rise as the sellers get greedy. This will cause the plex users to feel like eve has become a second job and de-sub. Plex will be worth nothing soon simply because there will be no one left to buy it.
Too many of us never acknowledge that it is partly us that make the game what it is. Yes I've read all the posts about 6-15 minutes grinding per day, I also know there are ways to make 1b easy.
CCP need to look at this issue further, perhaps if they lowered the price to the actual cost of the monthly sub and then split that with their vendors they would still make some money. This needs to be looked at urgently before we lose another few thousand players. Clever customer relations need to be applied here and the long term gain needs to be considered, I'm sorry but HTFU or I killed you won't work here, Finance is limited in RL for some of the folk who love Eve, At this point we can ill afford to turn our backs on them and tell them they shouldn't be playing if they can't afford the sub, I think they'll actually leave and we will be back here chatting **** as to why the numbers have dropped again and completely missing the real reasons why.
Please, Please, Please, CCP sort out the PLEX and contribute to Eve running for another 12 years. I obviously dont know what your outgoing costs are so I maybe wrong, I can imagine CCP has to pay some hefty bills themselves.
Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
|
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1491
|
Posted - 2015.09.10 01:59:09 -
[134] - Quote
La Rynx wrote:Hasikan Miallok wrote:Rain6637 wrote:Called a Giffen Good, see my sig. That makes sense. No it does not. i read the source and googled more information. "Giffen" describes rising demand with increasing price. The giffen paradoxon happens to "inferior goods!" and other "details". "If" there is something, then its market speculation. Hope the frozen fan fiction is better... And and the "10percent sales"... Are still more expensive than the Plex prices from other legal resellers. The wan't make any dent. Why should someone throw his PLEX on the market to lower the price?
Regardless of what it is called, the fact is higher prices for PLEX mean less are offered for sale.
People sell just enough PLEX in game to cover their current costs. They do not randomly decide "oh PLEX are getting a billion ISK now I cash in a stack and buy that Revenant I always wanted" - they sell the number of PLEX needed to cover their current ISK requirements.
|
Tesal
445
|
Posted - 2015.09.10 02:39:16 -
[135] - Quote
The higher the price of PLEX, the fewer need to be made. It cost 2 PLEX to buy a carrier awhile back, now it costs one PLEX to buy a carrier. Fewer PLEX means higher prices. There are other factors in the price of PLEX, but I think that is what is driving the price upward. It isn't a PLEX bubble, it is here to stay.
PLEX is cheap right now. I expect it to go much higher, double what it is now. Maybe even higher. When that happens it is going to affect the prices of everything that players grind for ISK, and lead to general inflation on everything. For example, mining veldspar won't pay the PLEX bill so the miner will unsub leading to higher veldspar prices. Any Alt driven economic endeavor suffer in this market. |
Ultim8Evil
Full Spectrum Inc Fidelas Constans
216
|
Posted - 2015.09.10 03:12:54 -
[136] - Quote
I don't feel that -ú90 per year for thousands of hours of game time is all that expensive.
People complaining about PLEX prices need to stop being poor IRL, splash a bit of cash, then never worry about PLEX ever again.
Then you can spend time enjoying the game, rather than worrying about carebearing enough to pay for next months carebearing.
Follow me on Twitter for literally no good reason @TheUltim8Evil
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6836
|
Posted - 2015.09.10 04:11:00 -
[137] - Quote
Hasikan Miallok wrote:Regardless of what it is called, the fact is higher prices for PLEX mean less are offered for sale.
People sell just enough PLEX in game to cover their current costs. They do not randomly decide "oh PLEX are getting a billion ISK now I cash in a stack and buy that Revenant I always wanted" - they sell the number of PLEX needed to cover their current ISK requirements. So as long as the "ISK requirements" are also rising because of higher prices for everything else, we're good... hmm that's one way to go about it... start ganking more so everything becomes harder to get.
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
566
|
Posted - 2015.09.10 04:45:28 -
[138] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Hasikan Miallok wrote:Regardless of what it is called, the fact is higher prices for PLEX mean less are offered for sale.
People sell just enough PLEX in game to cover their current costs. They do not randomly decide "oh PLEX are getting a billion ISK now I cash in a stack and buy that Revenant I always wanted" - they sell the number of PLEX needed to cover their current ISK requirements. So as long as the "ISK requirements" are also rising because of higher prices for everything else, we're good... hmm that's one way to go about it... start ganking more so everything becomes harder to get.
But costs aren't rising, they are falling and have been.
Eve has been deflationary for a while now. Which means people need less Plex to buy in game assets, which means the price of Plex goes up in game.... that in turn means less Plex needs to be sold to get isk.
It is a self fulfilling prophecy now. Prices of non-plex stuff is dropping, Plex prices are increasing. Plex sellers have to buy less to get the same utility, and plex buyers have to work harder to get the isk to buy the plex.
Toilet Bowl in reverse. Hurricane
Best description of Eve Online and why the community is the way it is
|
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
98
|
Posted - 2015.09.10 08:32:34 -
[139] - Quote
This is getting ridiculous. I just spent 7.2 Bill isk to buy 6 plexes. If plex prices reach the 2 bill isk mark by the time I need to resub again, then I may have to turn away from this game. |
flakeys
Arkham Innovations
3231
|
Posted - 2015.09.10 10:42:43 -
[140] - Quote
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:Poor: How am I gonna PLEX my sub to keep playing for free now?
Not Poor: Hnnnnnghhhhh.....I am so freaking hard right now thinking about how much ISK I will get the next time I buy a 6-pack of PLEX.
F
More like :
Miner:
Argh plex is so high i can't sub for free what am i to do there is no other way to make easy isk.
Trader:
Mmmm plex gone up a bit more , meh i'll just buy plex for 3 years to sub in one go , might be cheaper in the end or not who cares anyway .
We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.
|
|
flakeys
Arkham Innovations
3231
|
Posted - 2015.09.10 10:43:49 -
[141] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Tosski wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Brutus Utama wrote:The price of plex is becoming too high i have had to unsub my miners as its not worth it i had them to make isk but with the increase of isk price for plex they barely pay for themselves and why would i spend so much time grinding just to have the accounts for show they dont provide me anything anymore just enough isk to buy the plex to keep that account going they make me no profit anymore...
i dont see the point in putting the little time i have into mining to get nothing out of it....except another month of grinding to get the same result.... i believe that is called insanity Have you ever though about paying with real money for your subs and not having to grind a single ISK for your gametime? Most people pay for their subs via plex cause they don't have the real life money to pay for it. If not for plexes they wouldn't be able to play. As the economy keeps getting worse in many parts of the world, I can see the demand for plexes slowly go up. But on the other hand if prices of plex keep going up, will be more and more that will not be able to play cause they can't afford them. Yes its easy to make ISK, but also easier to lose it. To me the answer is a big isk sink item, something like titans, but that most anyone can get, good item and costs billions upon billions of ISK, people need a reason to buy more plex to flood the market to get the prices to drop again. If you can't spend 15$ a month on your entertainment, you should have more important stuff on your mind than the price of PLEX.
I think it has more to do with not thinking the game is worth 15 a month then not actually being able to spend 15 a month in most cases.
We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.
|
Brutus Utama
Fusion Enterprises Ltd Phoenix Company Alliance
55
|
Posted - 2015.09.10 10:44:14 -
[142] - Quote
Ultim8Evil wrote:I don't feel that -ú90 per year for thousands of hours of game time is all that expensive.
People complaining about PLEX prices need to stop being poor IRL, splash a bit of cash, then never worry about PLEX ever again.
Then you can spend time enjoying the game, rather than worrying about carebearing enough to pay for next months carebearing.
Maybe you still live at home with your parents?
but when i have to pay out for my house, my heating bills, water bills, dog food, my car insurance, fuel for the car, food for myself, the internet bills, tv license phone bill, mobile phone bill, satalite tv bills , gym membership as well as being able to put some to one side for savings etc its a nice relief to be able to pay with plex as saving cash is a priority for some people now if i payed with real money for 5 accounts thats another -ú600 a year that to be honest isnt really cheap for a game it becomes quite difficult to pay with real money,
so no not everyone is in a postition to go "splashing cash" on the game maybe 1 account might be feasable to pay with money but not anything more.
also not sure but if you crawl out of your hole you might find its not just a matter of deciding to stop being poor IRL. |
Lan Wang
V I R I I Ineluctable.
1494
|
Posted - 2015.09.10 10:56:52 -
[143] - Quote
Brutus Utama wrote:Ultim8Evil wrote:I don't feel that -ú90 per year for thousands of hours of game time is all that expensive.
People complaining about PLEX prices need to stop being poor IRL, splash a bit of cash, then never worry about PLEX ever again.
Then you can spend time enjoying the game, rather than worrying about carebearing enough to pay for next months carebearing. Maybe you still live at home with your parents? but when i have to pay out for my house, my heating bills, water bills, dog food, my car insurance, fuel for the car, food for myself, the internet bills, tv license phone bill, mobile phone bill, satalite tv bills , gym membership as well as being able to put some to one side for savings etc its a nice relief to be able to pay with plex as saving cash is a priority for some people now if i payed with real money for 5 accounts thats another -ú600 a year that to be honest isnt really cheap for a game it becomes quite difficult to pay with real money, so no not everyone is in a postition to go "splashing cash" on the game maybe 1 account might be feasable to pay with money but not anything more. also not sure but if you crawl out of your hole you might find its not just a matter of deciding to stop being poor IRL.
its not really saving though is it? you pay for the gym, saving would be going out for a run, satelite tv, saving would be running kodi or similar for free, its just a selective cost you prefer not to pay, eve gives me more entertainment for -ú9.99 a month than my sky subscription which cost me -ú70 a month (i got rid of that to run a free service). but its also your choice to run 5 accounts, you dont need 5 accounts to play eve.
do you think that the price of plex is going up because its actually too easy to make isk in the game?
EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding | Digital Design
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6839
|
Posted - 2015.09.10 12:21:30 -
[144] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:Brutus Utama wrote:Ultim8Evil wrote:I don't feel that -ú90 per year for thousands of hours of game time is all that expensive.
People complaining about PLEX prices need to stop being poor IRL, splash a bit of cash, then never worry about PLEX ever again.
Then you can spend time enjoying the game, rather than worrying about carebearing enough to pay for next months carebearing. Maybe you still live at home with your parents? but when i have to pay out for my house, my heating bills, water bills, dog food, my car insurance, fuel for the car, food for myself, the internet bills, tv license phone bill, mobile phone bill, satalite tv bills , gym membership as well as being able to put some to one side for savings etc its a nice relief to be able to pay with plex as saving cash is a priority for some people now if i payed with real money for 5 accounts thats another -ú600 a year that to be honest isnt really cheap for a game it becomes quite difficult to pay with real money, so no not everyone is in a postition to go "splashing cash" on the game maybe 1 account might be feasable to pay with money but not anything more. also not sure but if you crawl out of your hole you might find its not just a matter of deciding to stop being poor IRL. its not really saving though is it? you pay for the gym, saving would be going out for a run, satelite tv, saving would be running kodi or similar for free, its just a selective cost you prefer not to pay, eve gives me more entertainment for -ú9.99 a month than my sky subscription which cost me -ú70 a month (i got rid of that to run a free service). but its also your choice to run 5 accounts, you dont need 5 accounts to play eve. do you think that the price of plex is going up because its actually too easy to make isk in the game? Ah damnit, another person got caught on GD by giving out too many details
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12348
|
Posted - 2015.09.10 12:37:23 -
[145] - Quote
Brutus Utama wrote:Ultim8Evil wrote:I don't feel that -ú90 per year for thousands of hours of game time is all that expensive.
People complaining about PLEX prices need to stop being poor IRL, splash a bit of cash, then never worry about PLEX ever again.
Then you can spend time enjoying the game, rather than worrying about carebearing enough to pay for next months carebearing. Maybe you still live at home with your parents? but when i have to pay out for my house, my heating bills, water bills, dog food, my car insurance, fuel for the car, food for myself, the internet bills, tv license phone bill, mobile phone bill, satalite tv bills , gym membership as well as being able to put some to one side for savings etc its a nice relief to be able to pay with plex as saving cash is a priority for some people now if i payed with real money for 5 accounts thats another -ú600 a year that to be honest isnt really cheap for a game it becomes quite difficult to pay with real money, so no not everyone is in a postition to go "splashing cash" on the game maybe 1 account might be feasable to pay with money but not anything more. also not sure but if you crawl out of your hole you might find its not just a matter of deciding to stop being poor IRL.
One of the ways to stop being poor in real life is stop playing video games when you could be earning extra money. You have enough time to generate PLEX in a video game but not enough time to improve your life situation?
We are talking about 50 cents (USD) a day per account here. That's 0.44735 Euros, or 0.32511 British Pounds per day per account.
I PLEX because I make lots of excess isk doing what I enjoy in game (Shooting NPCs), and the way i work leaves me with time to do that, but if I had to pay, yea I could afford 60 bucks a month for my 4 accounts, and I've got 1 kid in college and I help my other daughter with her bills because of a job loss. All this on top of all the other expenses we have with my wife working part time and me making a public servants salary (I won't be buying any yachts any time soon).
We're talking about a video game here. No one owes you access to a video game dude.
|
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2194
|
Posted - 2015.09.10 12:38:06 -
[146] - Quote
flakeys wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Tosski wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Brutus Utama wrote:The price of plex is becoming too high i have had to unsub my miners as its not worth it i had them to make isk but with the increase of isk price for plex they barely pay for themselves and why would i spend so much time grinding just to have the accounts for show they dont provide me anything anymore just enough isk to buy the plex to keep that account going they make me no profit anymore...
i dont see the point in putting the little time i have into mining to get nothing out of it....except another month of grinding to get the same result.... i believe that is called insanity Have you ever though about paying with real money for your subs and not having to grind a single ISK for your gametime? Most people pay for their subs via plex cause they don't have the real life money to pay for it. If not for plexes they wouldn't be able to play. As the economy keeps getting worse in many parts of the world, I can see the demand for plexes slowly go up. But on the other hand if prices of plex keep going up, will be more and more that will not be able to play cause they can't afford them. Yes its easy to make ISK, but also easier to lose it. To me the answer is a big isk sink item, something like titans, but that most anyone can get, good item and costs billions upon billions of ISK, people need a reason to buy more plex to flood the market to get the prices to drop again. If you can't spend 15$ a month on your entertainment, you should have more important stuff on your mind than the price of PLEX. I think it has more to do with not thinking the game is worth 15 a month then not actually being able to spend 15 a month in most cases.
If something is not worth it's price, why do they keep buying it?
|
Anne Dieu-le-veut
Natl Assn for the Advancement of Criminal People
237
|
Posted - 2015.09.10 12:47:42 -
[147] - Quote
If you feel PLEX are too expensive, buy 100 of them and dump them in Jita for about 700K. Be part of the solution instead of crying about it. I hope they keep going up until all the people that whine about PLEX prices GTFO.
flakeys wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote: If you can't spend 15$ a month on your entertainment, you should have more important stuff on your mind than the price of PLEX.
I think it has more to do with not thinking the game is worth 15 a month then not actually being able to spend 15 a month in most cases.
So they'd rather spend 10 or whatever hours grinding missions? Seems legit.
If I don't think a MMO is worth $15 a month, I don't play it. Even with "F2P" MMOs I do the sub thing rather than be nickel and dimed or put up with free player restrictions when I'm feeling the itch for some SWTOR or LOTRO.
|
Webvan
All Kill No Skill
13873
|
Posted - 2015.09.10 12:50:53 -
[148] - Quote
Brutus Utama wrote: gym membership I play ingress for exercise. Looks sorta like this.
Who has time for TV???
I'm in it for the money
Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12
|
archon o'v
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
19
|
Posted - 2015.09.10 15:25:27 -
[149] - Quote
plex will hit 1.5b within next 3-6 months, that's the highest it will ever get and will stay like this |
Circumstantial Evidence
213
|
Posted - 2015.09.10 15:39:42 -
[150] - Quote
archon o'v wrote:plex will hit 1.5b within next 3-6 months, that's the highest it will ever get and will stay like this 3-6 months? lol. Maybe next month, as market forces are pushing toward 1.2b atm. (Also, you'll never need more than 640k RAM.)
|
|
Salvos Rhoska
1400
|
Posted - 2015.09.10 16:02:35 -
[151] - Quote
PLEX will continue to rise.
Even I, on my own meager isk income, am immediately converting profits into PLEX as soon as I get sufficiently past my reserve wallet.
Im relatively new to EVE, without established income sources/developed alts, plagued with wrong skill choices that provide very little at great difficulty (Minmatar is a crapshoot, btw, except for Machariels, that I cant fly due to stupidly training far in its cruiser line) , and also a student atm.
Why do I do this?
Honestly, I cant afford sub for 1 account that has become unprofitable, let alone for the alt account that was supposed to enable me to earn more through its support.
Atm I focused on earning as much isk as I can with my misguided capacitiess, inorder to PLEX my accounts for as long as I can, for training into the "right way" to generate sustainably enough isk to PLEX themselves and allow me to participate reasonably in the activities I enjoy.
I am readily, and apparently, playing EVE "wrong", in terms of profit, but Im doing my damndest to recompense and stay in the game, on a PLEX basis.
This has less to do with the price of PLEX, and more to do with me not understanding how to earn isk properly.
I cannot buy PLEX or a sub.
So instead Im am struggling and fighting to remain in the game, with ingame means, which with my misguided and unprofitbale choices, had become very difficult. Ive got about 2 months in so far, if I liquidate all my assets. After that, I dont know. Maybe Ill finally find a job alongside my studies to sub to keep atleast one character training till things get better both IRL interms of income, and also ingame in terms of finalky making enough isk in the right ways.
PvE v PvP
|
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2194
|
Posted - 2015.09.10 16:41:08 -
[152] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:PLEX will continue to rise.
Even I, on my own meager isk income, am immediately converting profits into PLEX as soon as I get sufficiently past my reserve wallet.
Im relatively new to EVE, without established income sources/developed alts, plagued with wrong skill choices that provide very little at great difficulty (Minmatar is a crapshoot, btw, except for Machariels, that I cant fly due to stupidly training far in its cruiser line) , and also a student atm.
Why do I do this?
Honestly, I cant afford sub for 1 account that has become unprofitable, let alone for the alt accounts that were supposed to enable me to earn more through its support.
Atm I focused on earning as much isk as I can with my misguided capacitiess, inorder to PLEX my accounts for as long as I can, for training into the "right way" to generate sustainably enough isk to PLEX themselves and allow me to participate reasonably in the activities I enjoy.
I am readily, and apparently, playing EVE "wrong", in terms of profit, but Im doing my damndest to recompense and stay in the game, on a PLEX basis.
This has less to do with the price of PLEX, and more to do with me not having understanding how to earn isk properly.
I cannot buy PLEX or a sub.
So instead Im am struggling and fighting to remain in the game, with ingame means, which with my misguided and unprofitbale choices, had become very difficult. Ive got about 2-3 months left, if I liquidate all my assets. After that, I dont know. Maybe Ill finally find a job alongside my studies to sub to keep atleast one character training till things get better both IRL interms of income, and also ingame in terms of finalky making enough isk in the right ways.
If anything, what pisses me off the most, is that I didnt join the EVE community years before I did. Thats my own fault. Atleast then I would have developed characters with enough adaptability to roll with the changes and still pump out good isk, and connections to support that.
Im also going to try invest ehat I have left in some trading with some limitied hauling, to try and scratch together a few more millions, though tbh Im likely to lose more than I win, as its a new endevour for me.
TLDR: Its lean and hard times for PLEXing newer players. We, if anyone, are feeling the crunch and fighting the hardest to stay in the game. If anyone has suggestions or offers of employment/opprtunity, please do not hesitate to mail me with them.
WTF did you train for that can't make 100 mill in a few game hours for 10 days/months?
Or 33 mill each day of the month? |
Salvos Rhoska
1401
|
Posted - 2015.09.10 17:21:32 -
[153] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:WTF did you train for that can't make 100 mill in a few game hours for 10 days/months?
Or 33 mill each day of the month?
Main on Minnie T2 cruisers with primarily arty and shields training (big mistake). Primary alt account (also (fail) Minnie), that currently mines Ice to produce some income while training, but cant decide between being a covops scout, or explorer, or stealth bomber, or whatever, to suppoet my main. PI account/characters has been a resolute failure.
I can just about make the PLEX cost per month for both on my main with frequent and intensive combat exploration, but I have no capital remaining afterwards, especially including my drunken fails flying a Muninn in 5/10 escalations.
Im really straining atm. My meager goal would be to earn enough isk to multitrain 1 additional character per month, so as to diversify my options and content in EVE progressively, but its very hard to do so.
Im constantly trying to improve, and do a great deal of reading/research, but I think some of my initial decisions have been counterproductive, and Im paying for them now.
I hope its just a small slump /gap have to overcome to establish myself, to reach a certain SP critcal mass, but goddam, Im really scraping the bottom of the barrel for every dreg atm. Il bring every 5k module I can to market. Im picking pennies off the floor.
PvE v PvP
|
Bagrat Skalski
Poseidaon
9387
|
Posted - 2015.09.10 17:52:19 -
[154] - Quote
I feel like I achieved something in this game when I read what people are doing. My killboard may be funny, but I can at least make some ISK.
Custom ship skins | Since 2014 | Character creator style "repaint" | Bring back the dream
|
Zihao
Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave
59
|
Posted - 2015.09.10 19:52:54 -
[155] - Quote
Brutus Utama wrote: when i have to pay out for my house, my heating bills, water bills, dog food, my car insurance, fuel for the car, food for myself, the internet bills, tv license phone bill, mobile phone bill, satalite tv bills , gym membership as well as being able to put some to one side for savings etc. It sounds like you are poor. There's nothing wrong with being poor. But you are definitely poor. Why be mad you have to pay for things though? Is CCP supposed to subsidize you because you paid for their game at some point? |
Ultim8Evil
Full Spectrum Inc Fidelas Constans
223
|
Posted - 2015.09.10 20:15:32 -
[156] - Quote
Brutus Utama wrote:Maybe you still live at home with your parents? ...TEARS... also not sure but if you crawl out of your hole you might find its not just a matter of deciding to stop being poor IRL.
I'm married, 31, I tax, insure, service, MOT, and fuel two cars, own my own home, pay all my bills (sky+, gas, electric, water, council tax, mobile phone, fibre optic broadband yada yada yada) I take two holidays abroad per year.
So no, I don't live with my parents, thank you very much.
I'm just doing well enough in life to not worry about -ú90 (well, -ú180, I have two accounts) a year making a huge dent in my wallet.
-ú90 is a tank of diesel. -ú90 is a realtively tame night out. -ú90 is not a lot of money.
Follow me on Twitter for literally no good reason @TheUltim8Evil
|
Bagrat Skalski
Poseidaon
9388
|
Posted - 2015.09.10 20:36:23 -
[157] - Quote
Ultim8Evil wrote: -ú90 is a tank of diesel.
120l fuel tank? Games produced in the west have western prices. Everything there have western price. Even when its made in the east.
Custom ship skins | Since 2014 | Character creator style "repaint" | Bring back the dream
|
Lan Wang
V I R I I Ineluctable.
1503
|
Posted - 2015.09.10 20:46:52 -
[158] - Quote
Bagrat Skalski wrote:Ultim8Evil wrote: -ú90 is a tank of diesel.
120l fuel tank? Games produced in the west have western prices. Everything there have western price. Even when its made in the east.
lol he wishes it was 120l fuel tank, uk is over -ú1 a litre for fuel
EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding | Digital Design
|
Ultim8Evil
Full Spectrum Inc Fidelas Constans
223
|
Posted - 2015.09.10 21:44:21 -
[159] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:Bagrat Skalski wrote:Ultim8Evil wrote: -ú90 is a tank of diesel.
120l fuel tank? Games produced in the west have western prices. Everything there have western price. Even when its made in the east. lol he wishes it was 120l fuel tank, uk is over -ú1 a litre for fuel
-ú1.13 a litre for Diesel last time I noticed.
Follow me on Twitter for literally no good reason @TheUltim8Evil
|
Salvos Rhoska
1401
|
Posted - 2015.09.10 22:10:48 -
[160] - Quote
2.5 bil by next year, at this time.
2.99 bil atleast by the year after, at this time.
PLEX is, to my mind, a foregone situation, barring another huge influx of players purchasing them after a huge media event, or some other fantastic CCP media stunt.
PLEX is an excellent system, but integrally it carries its own dependencies and systemic downfall, particularly in the sense that the higher its isk cost rises, the less of it people will buy IRL, invariably (note) leading to a CCP fiscal decision on sub costs, which will throw PLEX and the entire economy into all kinds of crazy.
I really want EVE to catch its second wind, and take off like the champ it is and deserves to be, but I cant help feeling the opportunity for that was lost way back when the best revenues were sidelined into other projects.
Its an ironic, analogous and poetic justice that any EVE player can appreciate; they invested time/money/skill into the wrong things. SOL. Didnt do your homework. Bad bet.
PvE v PvP
|
|
Karl Jerr
Herzack Unit
113
|
Posted - 2015.09.10 22:35:23 -
[161] - Quote
Plexing my accounts isn't a concern since I use stock's dividends to buy subs for some months now. And I don't think I'm alone in this case.
Btw many people in my country pay like $60/$80 / month for crappy basic cable TV or $120 for "complete" cable TV.
CAD$40 for 2 accounts in a game like this one is cheap beside it. |
Zihao
Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave
59
|
Posted - 2015.09.10 22:36:03 -
[162] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:PLEX is an excellent system, but integrally it carries its own dependencies and systemic downfall, particularly in the sense that the higher its isk cost rises, the less of it people will buy IRL, invariably (note) leading to a CCP fiscal decision on sub costs, which will throw PLEX and the entire economy into all kinds of crazy.
Explain your logic.
Each PLEX represents game time, vanity items, or a store of value based on one of the previous. Taking PLEX as a variable independent of subscribers doesn't work since, all else being equivalent, everyone owes the same cash amount to CCP (give or take depend on how much your government adds on with VAT or other duties). PLEX is nothing more than a mechanism to legally pass that subscription fee or cash price of vanity items on to someone else who is willing to pay it in exchange for isk.
It truly does not matter if you reach a point where PLEX commands so much isk that few need to be sold for any average purpose, because under those conditions you have more players on the fence about selling PLEX who begin to do so as a waning supply will just make it even more lucrative on a per-individual basis. So up to the point where 1 PLEX commands such an absurd amount of isk that hardly anyone could do something with it (at which point you get inflationary collapse due to a devalued isk, not an over-valued PLEX), there is a stable market price.
So unless you are implying that there are no more players who will begin to sell PLEX at any price point hence, your scenario is unrealistic. |
Salvos Rhoska
1403
|
Posted - 2015.09.10 23:10:11 -
[163] - Quote
Zihao wrote:So unless you are implying that there are no more players who will begin to sell PLEX at any price point hence, your scenario is unrealistic. I never imply anything. I say what I mean, and mean what I say.
You seem to have had a knee-jerk reaction, and assumed I have said, by false implication, something I have not. Therafter came the normal litany of what PLEX is, and which I am aware of, and does not need repeating.
My point, as was that of many other posters here, is that as PLEX prices rise, people will buy less of it with real money, because they only buy as much as their isk needs are. PLEX is inherently unequitable in terms of conversion to the other options it applies to, such as clothing, skins, subbing, or multitraining, which all are cheaper to buy directly with real money, even though some of them are also availbale ingame as sold by other players for isk.
If you can find clothing/skins/aurum tokens for cheaper than the PLEX/Aurum conversion cost of aquiring them , buy them, immediately.
The flaw in your approach, is not realizing that (rational) people buy PLEX for one reason, and one reason alone: - to sell ingame for isk.
PvE v PvP
|
Zihao
Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave
59
|
Posted - 2015.09.11 00:44:35 -
[164] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote: My point, as was that of many other posters here, is that as PLEX prices rise, people will buy less of it with real money, because they only buy as much as their isk needs are.
And herein lies your fundamental mistake. There is no fixed set of players who buy, sell, and abstain from either, but rather a player chooses to participate in either or neither activity based on the price. 10 players selling 1 PLEX is equivalent to 1 player selling 10. |
Salvos Rhoska
1403
|
Posted - 2015.09.11 01:12:19 -
[165] - Quote
Zihao wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote: My point, as was that of many other posters here, is that as PLEX prices rise, people will buy less of it with real money, because they only buy as much as their isk needs are.
And herein lies your fundamental mistake. There is no fixed set of players who buy, sell, and abstain from either, but rather a player chooses to participate in either or neither activity based on the price. 10 players selling 1 PLEX is equivalent to 1 player selling 10. Wat.
I agree there is no "fixed" set of players who buy PLEX IRL. Who they are is irrelevant. Only the aggregate of what comes onto the ingame market, matters.
If they hold onto the PLEX they bought IRL, that too is irrelevant, because it has no influence on the market.
10 players selling 1 PLEX (which is impossible, idiotic, and ridiculous to state, because only 1 player can sell a PLEX) is not equivalent to 1 player selling 10 PLEX.
The former results in 1 PLEX introduction, the latter in 10.
In what kind of ******** logic does 1 PLEX equal 10 PLEX?
Why am I even answering to this.
PvE v PvP
|
Tosawa Komarui
Exit-Strategy Exit Strategy..
4
|
Posted - 2015.09.11 01:33:10 -
[166] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:In economic theory there is something called Giffen good (good, as in "goods and services"). These are goods which have a reversed supply-demand curve. That is, an increase in price results in a decrease in supply. It is possible that the PLEX is a Giffen good. To see how this could be, first let me recast what I mean by "the price of the PLEX".
Consider how much Real Money I need to buy, say, 10 billion ISK via PLEX. As the ISK value of the PLEX increases, the price, in Real Money, of 10 billion ISK decreases. Normally one would expect this to increase the demand for PLEX. As the Real Money cost of 10 billion ISK drops, more players will opt to make the purchase. But if the PLEX is a Giffen good, then the reverse happens. The mechanism may be:
The number of people who would want a supercap is limited by the number of characters who have skills to fly them, not the super's price. Dropping the price of supers will have only a small effect on their demand. (I'm assuming a player does not want spare supers sitting about, they want most every one logged off in space with a pilot sitting in it.)
A player with little ISK can buy a super by using Real Money to buy PLEX, selling the PLEX for ISK and buying the super. As the ISK value of a PLEX increases, the number of PLEX the player need buy goes down. Increased ISK price leads to a reduced supply of PLEX. (Or, to put it another way, the decreasing price of ISK leads to decreasing demand for PLEX). This makes the PLEX a Giffen good.
A numerical example:
Say the ISK price of the PLEX increases by 10%. Any player deciding to make a big purchase now needs to buy 10% fewer PLEX. Lets say as a result of the better price, 5% more players decide to make such a purchase. Yes, the total players buying PLEX increases, and the total ISK bought increases, but as each now buys fewer PLEX, the total supply of PLEX goes down. Again, we have a Giffen good.
What this means for CCP: The increasing ISK value of the PLEX would reduce revenue, and hence is not in CCPGÇÖs best interest.
its also worth noting that when blizzard "borrowed" this idea with their token system they took the price of the tokens out of the players hands completely, there is no auction system they control the price and the price is looooow
im not saying that system would work for eve, but its interesting that they managed to avoid this problem |
Zihao
Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave
59
|
Posted - 2015.09.11 02:00:22 -
[167] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote: 10 players selling 1 PLEX (which is impossible, idiotic, and ridiculous to state, because only 1 player can sell a PLEX) is not equivalent to 1 player selling 10 PLEX.
The former results in 1 PLEX introduction, the latter in 10.
10x1 = 10 1x10 = 10
Hope that helps.
|
Desslok VonReich
Acadia Investment Group
2
|
Posted - 2015.09.11 02:26:11 -
[168] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:[quote=Zihao][quote=Salvos Rhoska] 10 players selling 1 PLEX (which is impossible, idiotic, and ridiculous to state, because only 1 player can sell a PLEX) is not equivalent to 1 player selling 10 PLEX.
The former results in 1 PLEX introduction, the latter in 10.
In what kind of ******** logic does 1 PLEX equal 10 PLEX?
Why am I even answering to this.
Do you even understand WHERE PLEX comes from?
Er. How did you possibly read that and misunderstand that so badly?
As the ISK value of PLEX rises, I am more and more likely to purchase a PLEX for resale. I assume I am not alone in that.
My pet theory is that folks have a lot less disposable income these days to spend on PLEX, or anything really. At the same time, demand is up for the same reason as fewer people can afford the monthly sub.
|
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1498
|
Posted - 2015.09.11 03:00:33 -
[169] - Quote
Desslok VonReich wrote:
As the ISK value of PLEX rises, I am more and more likely to purchase a PLEX for resale. I assume I am not alone in that.
Whilst not alone you are probably unusual.
People are generally after ISK for a specific purpose and will cash in just enough ISK to fill that purpose. If your fleet needs to replace a Rorqual you cash in enough PLEX to get the 2 BILL ISK for a Rorqual. You do not suddenly buy 4 of the things or randomly pick up some POS parts just in case.
Someone considering a future purchase (like for example a ratting carrier) may be prompted to act earlier.
However very few people are going to randomly cash in PLEX and go shopping for billion ISK officer mods or some such just because they can get more ISK. I suspect the only people likely to do this are the occasional new player strapped for ISK wanting to try out shiney stuff. |
Salvos Rhoska
1404
|
Posted - 2015.09.11 03:02:04 -
[170] - Quote
Desslok VonReich wrote: As the ISK value of PLEX rises, I am more and more likely to purchase a PLEX for resale. I assume I am not alone in that.
Your ingame purchase of PLEX for resale is immaterial to the prevalence of PLEX.
The point of issue, is the quantity of introduction of PLEX into EVE.
You are merely reselling that which was already paid for.
EVE is a microcosm, a micronation, in which the means of existance for many players/accounts in it, is introduced from OUTSIDE its economy, into it.
Its like living in an aquarium. Somebody BUYS the food you need to live from OUTSIDE, and drops it into the tank, for other fishes to buy and eat within it. When that supply dwindles, costs go up, dependant fish start dying.
This is the central concept I have tried to elaborate on in my previous posts.
PvE v PvP
|
|
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
98
|
Posted - 2015.09.11 03:52:34 -
[171] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
I really want EVE to catch its second wind, and take off like the champ it is and deserves to be, but I cant help feeling the opportunity for that was lost way back when the best revenues were sidelined into other projects.
Its an ironic, analogous and poetic justice that any EVE player can appreciate; they invested time/money/skill into the wrong things. SOL. Didnt do your homework. Bad bet.
Can you please explain what you mean by this?
|
Salvos Rhoska
1404
|
Posted - 2015.09.11 04:00:47 -
[172] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:Can you please explain what you mean by this? Which part, exactly?
PvE v PvP
|
La Rynx
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
375
|
Posted - 2015.09.11 05:14:26 -
[173] - Quote
so many ppl still don't get it. plex value is not increasing! isk value is decreasing!
plex as tool for ppl with real money, to sell game time in the game market.
which ppl could have big problems? ppl who do not pay real money, ppl who grind isk to play for free. those ppl have to play more to play for free... sounds fair for the ppl who really buy plex from ccp with real money.
oooh eve is dying cause less freeloaders.
because freeloaders create content and do not grind isk via mining or ratting, or other pve... /sarcasm off
Atomic Virulent : "You can't spell DOUCHE. without CODE."
|
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1499
|
Posted - 2015.09.11 06:30:38 -
[174] - Quote
La Rynx wrote:which ppl could have big problems? ppl who do not pay real money, ppl who grind isk to play for free. those ppl have to play more to play for free... sounds fair for the ppl who really buy plex from ccp with real money. oooh eve is dying cause less freeloaders. because freeloaders create content and do not grind isk via mining or ratting, or other pve... /sarcasm off
You miss the point.
Forget all about "freeholding carebears versus awesome PvPers that pay real money to play". What happens to the PLEX once those PLEX are sold in the game is irrelevant.
What is important is that every time buying ISK gets cheaper, people will need less real dollars to fund their PvP. In other words the more expensive a PLEX becomes the less income CCP are getting to pay for the game. |
Anize Oramara
The Arch Dashing Dashers
384
|
Posted - 2015.09.11 09:29:17 -
[175] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Desslok VonReich wrote: As the ISK value of PLEX rises, I am more and more likely to purchase a PLEX for resale. I assume I am not alone in that.
Your ingame purchase of PLEX for resale is immaterial to the prevalence of PLEX. The point of issue, is the quantity of introduction of PLEX into EVE. You are merely reselling that which was already paid for. EVE is a microcosm, a micronation, in which the means of existance for many players/accounts in it, is introduced from OUTSIDE its economy, into it. Its like living in an aquarium. Somebody BUYS the food some fish need to live from OUTSIDE with real money, and drops it into the tank, for dependant fish to buy with fishmoney, so as to eat it and live another month. When that supply dwindles, costs go up, and dependant fish start dying from starvation. Furthermore, as other have also pointed out, thr higher the isk value of PLEX, the less RLM PLEX purchases will occur (because buyers rationally only buy as much as they need), and the less PLEX will be introduced to the system. PLEX has gone up 20-25% in the last year, other commodities have (thankfully) not. This is the central concept I have tried to elaborate on in my previous posts. PLEX, and how it is introduced to the game, is ingenius and unconventional. It takesmsome adjusting and thinking to understand how that happens. Take a few minutes for yourself to ponder upon it, and understand it. Zihao wrote:
10x1 = 10 1x10 = 10
Hope that helps.
Doesnt help at all. 10 players cannot buy 1 PLEX. 1 player buys 1 PLEX. The remaining 9 did NOT buy a PLEX. Your math is absolutely ********. You are either being obtuse or are genuinely lacking in certain mental faculties. If you are being obtuse I suggest you knock it off as you are only giving the impression that you are in fact a little slow so anything else you say carries less weight. In the original post there was an implied '10 people buying 1 plex EACH'.
Now I understand if English perhaps isn't your first languages (It isn't mine) but continuing to play the 'that's not what you said' or 'your math doesn't make sense you are stuuuupid' cards only makes YOU look the fool and makes no one take you seriously. Grow up. |
Deck Cadelanne
CAStabouts
208
|
Posted - 2015.09.11 09:55:05 -
[176] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:At the end of the day, I think CCP are going to be confronted with the necessity of lowering their price point. It may seem counter-intuitive, but they're better off with 15 customers paying $10 each than they are with 10 customers paying $15 each. And not just a bit better - a lot better off.
Gut feel: that would not attract new players (the barriers to entry in-game are what stops that) but maybe it brings back some veterans.
"When the going gets weird, the weird turn professional."
- Hunter S. Thompson
|
Kairos Antilles
Project Kairos The Bastion
61
|
Posted - 2015.09.11 11:51:24 -
[177] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:Desslok VonReich wrote: As the ISK value of PLEX rises, I am more and more likely to purchase a PLEX for resale. I assume I am not alone in that.
Your ingame purchase of PLEX for resale is immaterial to the prevalence of PLEX. The point of issue, is the quantity of introduction of PLEX into EVE. You are merely reselling that which was already paid for. EVE is a microcosm, a micronation, in which the means of existance for many players/accounts in it, is introduced from OUTSIDE its economy, into it. Its like living in an aquarium. Somebody BUYS the food some fish need to live from OUTSIDE with real money, and drops it into the tank, for dependant fish to buy with fishmoney, so as to eat it and live another month. When that supply dwindles, costs go up, and dependant fish start dying from starvation. Furthermore, as other have also pointed out, thr higher the isk value of PLEX, the less RLM PLEX purchases will occur (because buyers rationally only buy as much as they need), and the less PLEX will be introduced to the system. PLEX has gone up 20-25% in the last year, other commodities have (thankfully) not. This is the central concept I have tried to elaborate on in my previous posts. PLEX, and how it is introduced to the game, is ingenius and unconventional. It takesmsome adjusting and thinking to understand how that happens. Take a few minutes for yourself to ponder upon it, and understand it. Zihao wrote:
10x1 = 10 1x10 = 10
Hope that helps.
Doesnt help at all. 10 players cannot buy 1 PLEX. 1 player buys 1 PLEX. The remaining 9 did NOT buy a PLEX. Your math is absolutely ********. You are either being obtuse or are genuinely lacking in certain mental faculties. If you are being obtuse I suggest you knock it off as you are only giving the impression that you are in fact a little slow so anything else you say carries less weight. In the original post there was an implied '10 people buying 1 plex EACH'. Now I understand if English perhaps isn't your first languages (It isn't mine) but continuing to play the 'that's not what you said' or 'your math doesn't make sense you are stuuuupid' cards only makes YOU look the fool and makes no one take you seriously. Grow up.
Guess we have to spell out unit of issue (each) to be sure there's no room for ambiguity. |
Kairos Antilles
Project Kairos The Bastion
61
|
Posted - 2015.09.11 11:54:14 -
[178] - Quote
Deck Cadelanne wrote:Malcanis wrote:At the end of the day, I think CCP are going to be confronted with the necessity of lowering their price point. It may seem counter-intuitive, but they're better off with 15 customers paying $10 each than they are with 10 customers paying $15 each. And not just a bit better - a lot better off. Gut feel: that would not attract new players (the barriers to entry in-game are what stops that) but maybe it brings back some veterans.
Whenever I talk to friends and coworkers about joining our little sandbox, the first question is "Is there a subscription?", followed by "How much?"
They are intrigued by the concept of PLEXing an account, but the initial $15/month seems to be a turn off.
Take that FWIW... |
Anne Dieu-le-veut
Natl Assn for the Advancement of Criminal People
240
|
Posted - 2015.09.11 12:19:08 -
[179] - Quote
Kairos Antilles wrote:Whenever I talk to friends and coworkers about joining our little sandbox, the first question is "Is there a subscription?", followed by "How much?"
They are intrigued by the concept of PLEXing an account, but the initial $15/month seems to be a turn off.
Take that FWIW...
Still not worried about losing people too cheap to pay $15 a month, much less a one time $15.
|
Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6796
|
Posted - 2015.09.11 12:37:27 -
[180] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:My point, as was that of many other posters here, is that as PLEX prices rise, people will buy less of it with real money, because they only buy as much as their isk needs are. Just FYI, but this myth was debunked in an interview by one of the major ETC resellers, who saw no such correlation between PLEX prices and sold units. I imagine this comes down to one of two things: 1. Buyers aren't constrained by how much isk they need, only by how much excess cas they have, so an increase in isk price of PLEX just means they get more for the same amount of money.
2. As the PLEX price increases, more people who previously thought that the isk price of PLEX was not worth their real life cash start to see it as a better deal. I imagine far more people feel that paying $15 for 1.1b is a good deal compared to the number of players who feel $15 for 500m is a good deal.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
|
|
La Rynx
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
377
|
Posted - 2015.09.11 12:46:16 -
[181] - Quote
Hasikan Miallok wrote: You miss the point.
Forget all about "freeholding carebears versus awesome PvPers that pay real money to play".
I did not say anything like that. I buy Plex and i play everything. Mining, indu, own hauling, missions, ratting and PvP.
So you already start off the point.
Hasikan Miallok wrote: What happens to the PLEX once those PLEX are sold in the game is irrelevant.
More specific: when the PLEX are redeemed into the game.
Hasikan Miallok wrote: What is important is that every time buying ISK gets cheaper, people will need less real dollars to fund their PvP. In other words the more expensive a PLEX becomes the less income CCP are getting to pay for the game.
Funny conclusion.
Its even better: If isk gets cheaper, ships and fits get cheaper. Cheap stuff would be good for PvP since you do not loose expensive stuff. How can CCP get less for the game? The Plex was already sold? Expensive PLEX and cheap ISK are good for CCP: ppl wil risk more since all is cheaper.
Atomic Virulent : "You can't spell DOUCHE. without CODE."
|
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
350
|
Posted - 2015.09.11 13:14:22 -
[182] - Quote
La Rynx wrote:Its even better: If isk gets cheaper, ships and fits get cheaper. Cheap stuff would be good for PvP since you do not loose expensive stuff. How can CCP get less for the game? The Plex was already sold? Expensive PLEX and cheap ISK are good for CCP: ppl wil risk more since all is cheaper. because you can buy more assets per 1 PLEX. So before ppl sell 1 PLEX per month, now will be selling 1 PLEX per two or three months. Less real cash for CCP.
"(...) I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas (...)"
|
flakeys
Arkham Innovations
3233
|
Posted - 2015.09.11 13:43:03 -
[183] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:
If something is not worth it's price, why do they keep buying it?
They don't , that's exactly the point .They do however complain how they are not able to play for free.
We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.
|
Zihao
Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave
59
|
Posted - 2015.09.11 14:06:24 -
[184] - Quote
Jeremiah Saken wrote:La Rynx wrote:Its even better: If isk gets cheaper, ships and fits get cheaper. Cheap stuff would be good for PvP since you do not loose expensive stuff. How can CCP get less for the game? The Plex was already sold? Expensive PLEX and cheap ISK are good for CCP: ppl wil risk more since all is cheaper. because you can buy more assets per 1 PLEX. So before ppl sell 1 PLEX per month, now will be selling 1 PLEX per two or three months. Less real cash for CCP.
There is not a fixed pool of isk or players selling PLEX, so no. |
Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
569
|
Posted - 2015.09.11 14:56:47 -
[185] - Quote
Zihao wrote:Jeremiah Saken wrote:La Rynx wrote:Its even better: If isk gets cheaper, ships and fits get cheaper. Cheap stuff would be good for PvP since you do not loose expensive stuff. How can CCP get less for the game? The Plex was already sold? Expensive PLEX and cheap ISK are good for CCP: ppl wil risk more since all is cheaper. because you can buy more assets per 1 PLEX. So before ppl sell 1 PLEX per month, now will be selling 1 PLEX per two or three months. Less real cash for CCP. There is not a fixed pool of isk or players selling PLEX, so no.
So yes...
As long as the general trend of prices of all non-plex items is deflationary, the rising price of Plex has a compounding effect on itself in that people need to sell less of them to do what they want in the game... where as the people buying plex need to do more in game to gather the isk to buy.
Again, it is a Hurricane effect.
Best description of Eve Online and why the community is the way it is
|
Johnny Riko
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
18
|
Posted - 2015.09.11 17:20:16 -
[186] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote:Zihao wrote:Jeremiah Saken wrote:La Rynx wrote:Its even better: If isk gets cheaper, ships and fits get cheaper. Cheap stuff would be good for PvP since you do not loose expensive stuff. How can CCP get less for the game? The Plex was already sold? Expensive PLEX and cheap ISK are good for CCP: ppl wil risk more since all is cheaper. because you can buy more assets per 1 PLEX. So before ppl sell 1 PLEX per month, now will be selling 1 PLEX per two or three months. Less real cash for CCP. There is not a fixed pool of isk or players selling PLEX, so no. So yes... As long as the general trend of prices of all non-plex items is deflationary, the rising price of Plex has a compounding effect on itself in that people need to sell less of them to do what they want in the game... where as the people buying plex need to do more in game to gather the isk to buy. Again, it is a Hurricane effect.
I think what is implying is that as the ISK value of a PLEX increases, more people will consider buying one to sell in game for ISK to fund their activities/give themselves an ISK injection. Which is correct.
Unless CCP publish numbers on the amount of PLEX bought with cash and the number of PLEX redeemed in game for game time, we will never actually understand the ISK value increase. It is as simple as that.
I wanna join up. I think I got what it takes to be a Citizen.
|
Zihao
Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave
59
|
Posted - 2015.09.11 23:13:05 -
[187] - Quote
Johnny Riko wrote: I think what is implying is that as the ISK value of a PLEX increases, more people will consider buying one to sell in game for ISK to fund their activities/give themselves an ISK injection. Which is correct.
Precisely. |
Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
32282
|
Posted - 2015.09.12 01:25:44 -
[188] - Quote
$30 for a Hel, sure.
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
|
La Rynx
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
377
|
Posted - 2015.09.12 01:38:43 -
[189] - Quote
Jeremiah Saken wrote:La Rynx wrote:Its even better: If isk gets cheaper, ships and fits get cheaper. Cheap stuff would be good for PvP since you do not loose expensive stuff. How can CCP get less for the game? The Plex was already sold? Expensive PLEX and cheap ISK are good for CCP: ppl wil risk more since all is cheaper. because you can buy more assets per 1 PLEX. So before ppl sell 1 PLEX per month, now will be selling 1 PLEX per two or three months. Less real cash for CCP.
as i already wrote: cheaper isk gets your ships cheaper. you care less for ships that you can easily replace, so you take em out and get more kills and get more killed. Still one plex a month but 2 as much titans / svipuls / whatever killed
Atomic Virulent : "You can't spell DOUCHE. without CODE."
|
Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
571
|
Posted - 2015.09.12 01:59:20 -
[190] - Quote
Johnny Riko wrote:Market McSelling Alt wrote:Zihao wrote:Jeremiah Saken wrote:La Rynx wrote:Its even better: If isk gets cheaper, ships and fits get cheaper. Cheap stuff would be good for PvP since you do not loose expensive stuff. How can CCP get less for the game? The Plex was already sold? Expensive PLEX and cheap ISK are good for CCP: ppl wil risk more since all is cheaper. because you can buy more assets per 1 PLEX. So before ppl sell 1 PLEX per month, now will be selling 1 PLEX per two or three months. Less real cash for CCP. There is not a fixed pool of isk or players selling PLEX, so no. So yes... As long as the general trend of prices of all non-plex items is deflationary, the rising price of Plex has a compounding effect on itself in that people need to sell less of them to do what they want in the game... where as the people buying plex need to do more in game to gather the isk to buy. Again, it is a Hurricane effect. I think what is implying is that as the ISK value of a PLEX increases, more people will consider buying one to sell in game for ISK to fund their activities/give themselves an ISK injection. Which is correct. Unless CCP publish numbers on the amount of PLEX bought with cash and the number of PLEX redeemed in game for game time, we will never actually understand the ISK value increase. It is as simple as that.
The velocity (Market term for volume bought and finally used) has been decreasing for a long time. 2014 fanfest the reporting was velocity was falling as fast as the price was increasing, which is why CCP injected the market with Plex from banned accounts.
So no, people aren't buying more plex to sell to inject isk just because the price is going up. In fact market volume is way down on Plex and there is even less of it on the market this week than last, and the week before.
Plex is drying up. Like I said, If I need 1bil isk a month to fund my pvp, now I only have to sell 1 plex instead of 2. The guy buying my one has to grind twice as hard to buy it. It is a cycle.
Best description of Eve Online and why the community is the way it is
|
|
Zihao
Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave
61
|
Posted - 2015.09.12 02:46:41 -
[191] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote: In fact market volume is way down on Plex and there is even less of it on the market this week than last, and the week before.
Source?
|
Webvan
All Kill No Skill
13879
|
Posted - 2015.09.12 05:14:42 -
[192] - Quote
Zihao wrote:Market McSelling Alt wrote: In fact market volume is way down on Plex and there is even less of it on the market this week than last, and the week before.
Source? At least for Jita, looks like two on the market for every one sold. A lot more being sold the past couple weeks as well (oh no! EVE isn't dying??!?). Certainly there is no shortage of PLEX in item hangers, since CCP did state last year at fanfest that on avg a PLEX gets traded 2 or 3 times before being used. So, people buy it off the market and sit on it for a while as they wait for prices to go up enough. Yes, the "not enough exists" argument is totally bogus and neophyte EVE market understanding. The only reason it's selling at 1.19b right now and rising, is because traders want it to go up. It's an easy bet, really, compared to faster ISK trading other things that can also lose.
I'm in it for the money
Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12
|
NeoShocker
Oppose Militancy and Neutralize Invasion. Exodus.
215
|
Posted - 2015.09.12 05:21:02 -
[193] - Quote
It was long overdue. I was expecting plex card to reach 1b by new years. :s Instead, quite almost a year later towards 2016. |
SuperM8
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
0
|
Posted - 2015.09.15 14:00:21 -
[194] - Quote
1.2+bil today... will it ever stop rising? |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2202
|
Posted - 2015.09.15 14:51:37 -
[195] - Quote
SuperM8 wrote:1.2+bil today... will it ever stop rising?
Probably not and there is nothing wrong with that. |
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
575
|
Posted - 2015.09.15 15:48:01 -
[196] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:SuperM8 wrote:1.2+bil today... will it ever stop rising? Probably not and there is nothing wrong with that.
I have been tempted to buy a plex and sell it to market actually.
To quote Lfod Shi
The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
|
Marcus Tedric
Zebra Corp Goonswarm Federation
53
|
Posted - 2015.09.15 15:54:03 -
[197] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:SuperM8 wrote:1.2+bil today... will it ever stop rising? Probably not and there is nothing wrong with that.
No & Correct
EVE is a nice simple example of an economy with rampant inflation caused by 'printing money' - the only real way that that would come under control is when Rat bounties (sic) get reduced and, particularly, Incursion income drops dramatically.
Ships (for Minerals will), Modules (those that are made, not dropped), Ice and PLEX will continue to increase. The first 3 affected by how many are actually destroyed too.
|
Ruskarn Andedare
Lion Investments
735
|
Posted - 2015.09.15 16:14:15 -
[198] - Quote
Markus Reese wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:SuperM8 wrote:1.2+bil today... will it ever stop rising? Probably not and there is nothing wrong with that. I have been tempted to buy a plex and sell it to market actually. That's my kind of plan tbh |
Bagrat Skalski
Poseidaon
9563
|
Posted - 2015.09.15 16:20:26 -
[199] - Quote
Markus Reese wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:SuperM8 wrote:1.2+bil today... will it ever stop rising? Probably not and there is nothing wrong with that. I have been tempted to buy a plex and sell it to market actually.
What holds you?
You need that ISK right? Or maybe ISK not really equals fun?
Or maybe making that ISK yourself would feel like fun? What is your goal?
I never sold even one PLEX on market, I bought a lot of them.
Ever thought about situation when you can make enough ISK in one day to buy yourself a PLEX the same day? What really counts for you then? I had do ask myself that question many times.
Custom ship skins | Since 2014 | Character creator style "repaint" | Bring back the dream
|
Erin Crawford
485
|
Posted - 2015.09.15 16:49:49 -
[200] - Quote
I suppose players trying to sell PLEX for just above the going rate might taken them off market only to put in back on market for a much higher selling point, in order to gain even more, also adds to the sudden overall price increase.
"Those who talk donGÇÖt know. Those who know donGÇÖt talk. "
|
|
Salvos Rhoska
1452
|
Posted - 2015.09.15 17:03:24 -
[201] - Quote
Erin Crawford wrote:I suppose players trying to sell PLEX for just above the going rate might taken them off market only to put in back on market for a much higher selling point, in order to gain even more, also adds to the sudden overall price increase. wat
PvE v PvP
|
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
575
|
Posted - 2015.09.15 17:10:25 -
[202] - Quote
Bagrat Skalski wrote: What holds you?
You need that ISK right? Or maybe ISK not really equals fun?
Or maybe making that ISK yourself would feel like fun? What is your goal?
I never sold even one PLEX on market, I bought a lot of them.
Ever thought about situation when you can make enough ISK in one day to buy yourself a PLEX the same day? What really counts for you then? I had do ask myself that question many times.
Is a simple balance of roleplay, isk and time. I roleplay and dont farm so my play has a decent balance of isk earnings to shinies. The previous plex prices was not enough dollar to fun, but above a bil is an easy buffer for a solo account player. For many it may not seem like much, and I could farm it easy. However, that is lack of fun that could be spent on fun. 20 bucks is worth the savings vs 1 bil of farm or market/industry fiddling.
To quote Lfod Shi
The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
|
Mir Jana
Soft Blow LLC Krab Republic
11
|
Posted - 2015.09.15 17:42:20 -
[203] - Quote
1.2b isk...
ffs.... WoT dont charge anything.... LoL dont charge anything... Neverwinter dont charge anything... ffs, chesscube dont charge anything...
why do I have to spend 3 hours daily to rat to be able to pvp on weekends... ?!?!
wtf....?!?! |
Odie McCracken
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
29
|
Posted - 2015.09.15 17:43:28 -
[204] - Quote
Mir Jana wrote:1.2b isk...
why do I have to spend 3 hours daily to rat to be able to pvp on weekends... ?!?!
wtf....?!?!
I give up, why do you? |
Mir Jana
Soft Blow LLC Krab Republic
11
|
Posted - 2015.09.15 17:47:54 -
[205] - Quote
1 account Eve = 1 account in WoT + 1 account in LoL + 1 account in (random game name) = more fun then EVE at these plex prices... |
Hadrian Blackstone
Immortalis Fratres Vacui Legio immortales CXCI
185
|
Posted - 2015.09.15 17:55:30 -
[206] - Quote
Mir Jana wrote:1.2b isk...
ffs.... WoT dont charge anything.... LoL dont charge anything... Neverwinter dont charge anything... ffs, chesscube dont charge anything...
why do I have to spend 3 hours daily to rat to be able to pvp on weekends... ?!?!
wtf....?!?!
3 hours? n00b, just take your 12 marauder alts into a C6 wormhole, boom 15 minutes later you've plexed for the month. You're welcome |
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
576
|
Posted - 2015.09.15 18:05:28 -
[207] - Quote
Mir Jana wrote:1.2b isk...
ffs.... WoT dont charge anything.... LoL dont charge anything... Neverwinter dont charge anything... ffs, chesscube dont charge anything...
why do I have to spend 3 hours daily to rat to be able to pvp on weekends... ?!?!
wtf....?!?!
Or spend 13 dollars... less than cost of a movie?
Those other ones are simple arena style combat. Compare their server requirements and overhead to what CCP runs? Hell, my sub doesn't even cover my power bill?
To quote Lfod Shi
The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
|
Gillia Winddancer
Aliastra Gallente Federation
438
|
Posted - 2015.09.15 18:12:30 -
[208] - Quote
Boo hoo hoooooo. Buying PLEX is a privilege, not a right. Don't like it? Don't pay ISK. Pay real money. Don't like that either? Don't play at all then. Go find a job instead or do something more useful to society than sitting here whining about said privilege.
Market will be what it is with or without you whiners.
*edit*
Forgot to add "whiners" |
Salvos Rhoska
1453
|
Posted - 2015.09.15 18:36:48 -
[209] - Quote
Blah blah blah.
Its simple fact, that the higher PLEX costs go, the lower player activity will be.
No matter what side or angle of the argument you are on, you are going to have to deal with that simple systemic fact.
Whining at the leaving players isnt going to help. Whining about PLEX price, isnt going help you leavers either.
Decline in activity is imminent and present, and will continue along that trend as long as PLEX prices rise.
Inversely, even if PLEX prices drop, miraculously and irrationally, to 750mil again from the current 1.2bil, its too late for either party, and too late to increase player activity.
This is the FUBAR we live in. Deal with it, or abandon ship. Your choice.
PvE v PvP
|
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
576
|
Posted - 2015.09.15 18:51:14 -
[210] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Blah blah blah.
Its simple fact, that the higher PLEX costs go, the lower player activity will be.
No matter what side or angle of the argument you are on, you are going to have to deal with that simple systemic fact.
Then we must look at what the end player base will be and goals of CCP. If the quality of play improves, then people who want a quality and in depth MMO will make up the player base. I will use my movie cost for an example.
I can get a movie a few ways....
1. See it in Theater on release 2. Get a Theatre pirated and downloaded 3. Wait for it to come out for sale 4. Legal streaming 5. Pirate of commercial available
Lets start from from general experience. I can watch on my monitor, or TV on home system. But for a good movie, I really might want to see it on the IMAX in 3D. That is worth the few bucks. Fury Road is a fine example. It had to be experienced on the big screen.
In the end, it comes down to profit. A big screen spectacle costs big money to make vs a made for stream movie. So if they swap eve to be a "F2P" model where it is expected that you can use plex to pay for all subs, supply and demand. Many players are happy with a sub and selling plex occasionally. Like all things, is a balance. I wouldn't pay 20 bucks for a destructible battleship hull. So where is the plex from? Abuse of the buddy system, and a small number of non entitled sub payers.
If a person wants FTP, then best be expecting made for TV. Eve play relegated to massive 20v20 player battles in arena. Want a blockbuster? Best pay.
To quote Lfod Shi
The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
|
|
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
17044
|
Posted - 2015.09.15 19:05:00 -
[211] - Quote
I'll say it again: CCP need to work out where on the Laffer Curve PLEX stand at the moment. Because if there are two revenue equilibira, with one having a much higher number of PLEX being consumed, then CCP unquestionably and obviously need to choose the higher.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
|
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
576
|
Posted - 2015.09.15 19:20:38 -
[212] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:I'll say it again: CCP need to work out where on the Laffer Curve PLEX stand at the moment. Because if there are two revenue equilibira, with one having a much higher number of PLEX being consumed, then CCP unquestionably and obviously need to choose the higher.
Oooh.... Intellectual sharing. I like. Something we know in concept, but never had a name to the concept. It could work, is there a lower sub and plex price that would result in more earnings? I think their costs are pretty spot on for service rendered. More repolishing will just improve that. If the world is going to instant gratification at no cost, then would be best for eve to fade and CCP to just make some arena space game.
To quote Lfod Shi
The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
|
Salvos Rhoska
1453
|
Posted - 2015.09.15 19:26:57 -
[213] - Quote
Markus Reese wrote:Then we must look at what the end player base will be and goals of CCP.
I like you, man. But you lost me on the rest of your post, so Ill focus on this.
I dont doubt that EVE can continue as a zombie on a skeleton crew of both players and staff, almost indefinately (like Runescape). Its a VERY good game, at what it it does, and for what it is. The hardcore and truly committed will fund this game till the final light goes out. And they will no doubt enjoy it too, till that finale moment, and its catharsis.
But it will be in a very empty universe...
Talking about the goals of CCP, where is the idea and development of a EVE II? This game has already extised, with legacy code limitations/complications for a decade.
Whats the long term plan? Whats next? What is the greater future and ambition?
UO also tried to re-invigorate its basic product with graphic updates and content that was possible within its limitations. But failed.
EVE will always have players, no matter the cost of subs/PLEX, or changes within it.
But whats next? Why is there no EVE II in development?
PvE v PvP
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26084
|
Posted - 2015.09.15 19:29:38 -
[214] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:I'll say it again: CCP need to work out where on the Laffer Curve PLEX stand at the moment. Because if there are two revenue equilibira, with one having a much higher number of PLEX being consumed, then CCP unquestionably and obviously need to choose the higher. Laffer curve?
Probably somewhere around the kneeGǪ
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
17045
|
Posted - 2015.09.15 19:39:55 -
[215] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Malcanis wrote:I'll say it again: CCP need to work out where on the Laffer Curve PLEX stand at the moment. Because if there are two revenue equilibira, with one having a much higher number of PLEX being consumed, then CCP unquestionably and obviously need to choose the higher. Laffer curve? Probably somewhere around the kneeGǪ
Yeah I know that the Laffer Curve is questionable to say the least in RL economic models (A curve in just two dimensions to model a modern economy? Really? ), but it's an adequate metaphor for the current PLEX situation. Not least because there's no substitute good.
Although CCP have done their laudable best to treat PLEX as "just another" in game item, the fact is, it isn't just another in game item. It doesnt matter a jot to the long term health of EVE what the long term price trends of eg: Bhaalgorns or A-type EANMs or whatever is, but it matters a whole ******* lot what the time cost of PLEX is. As any ecologist will happily confirm to you, the diversity of an ecosystem strongly correlates with its resilience to catastrophe. Likewise, an EVE with 200,000 customers generating an average of $275/yr each is a considerably less resilient EVE than one with 300,000 customers generating $150/yr each.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
|
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
576
|
Posted - 2015.09.15 20:27:15 -
[216] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote: Why is there no EVE II in development?
If we loom at every f and i post, that is what most people are asking for. Funny thing is eve is just mathematics behind scenes. I describe it to people as dots fighting dots on the server and our comuter gives us fancy graphics and the appearance of ship orientation.
To this day, legacy code is an issue, but is there even any way we can optimize basic trig? That is all the server does. So an effective eve two would just be to just scrap the fleshed out mechanics and rewrite.
I still think biggest issue is just lack of depth to content. The LP store is pure industry. No isk added, just trade of a resource. If we take that and expand pirate life combined with a review of basic combat to see if we can remove or break up tje rock/papar/scissors, we would have eve II. Instead of fix the core, we do stuff like entosis. The jump changes were a good example of a core change. New AI is a core change. What changes the game for the most people to make it more engaging?
To quote Lfod Shi
The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
|
Dirk Magnum
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
494
|
Posted - 2015.09.15 20:37:45 -
[217] - Quote
PLEX resulted in an artificial player count bubble that was due to burst eventually. All those alts that can PLEX themselves in a matter of hours were only ever going to inject a huge amount of ISK into the economy and drive up PLEX prices. Imagine where we'd be if ISBoxer were still a thing. At this point CCP must have learned there's no limit to inflation in this game since ISK faucets are infinite, while single-account users like myself don't have the faintest sympathy for how hard it is to PLEX anything. No hard feelings though, because to me this game never has to feel like a job.
-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á "LIVE FAST DIE."
- traditional Minmatar ethos [citation needed]
|
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
576
|
Posted - 2015.09.15 20:45:39 -
[218] - Quote
Here is the scary part. If eve went under, does CCP have any legal obligation to a PLEX? Essentially it is an in game item that can be redeemed for game time... But... It can also be redeemed for aurum. Large stockpiles of plex could then just go... Poof!!! Too bad, so sad or eve just reduced back to a few hundred peeps node max and have fun. Proper business would split sub and plex finance. Subs to maintenance and overhead. Plex to r and i. Every redeemed plex transfers to maint. As such, if all of eve plex stockpile went to current accounts, that maintenance is forecasted until that last sub runs out. Close doors in the black.
To quote Lfod Shi
The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
|
Salvos Rhoska
1454
|
Posted - 2015.09.15 20:59:42 -
[219] - Quote
Someone(s) in EVE have wrestled control of PLEX from CCP and the consumers, by buying up and stockpiling the limited amount that is introduced to the game.
The consequences of this are difficult to get ones head around:
1) CCP, though an infinite source of PLEX ,from outside, only deals ingame with those PLEX which have already been paid for. I dont know what their reserve is, but I think its rational to conclude they are more reluctant and more lenient in re-introduction of those than are their player competitors. Basically, that means that whenever CCP reintroduces ingame PLEX to the market (cheaply, obviously), guess who buys it up? Stockpilers.
2) Lets say Im sitting on 1000 PLEX. Sure, some 1000 players brought those to the game, bought some ship with the isk, and then blew up. Their money is at CCP, their ship is a wreck, but I still have their PLEX. Im sitting on that value still. I lost nothing.
3)The more PLEX i can buy up off the market, the more I starve the market of supply, and the higher the value of my stockpile rises. No matter what the current price, Im selling the oxygen/food/water package (PLEX) that people need to survive. They want it (they NEED it),I have it. Their need is absolute. This is not a module or ship we are talking about, its their very survival. I make the price.
4)When there is a critical mass of PLEX withholders on the market, those players cut CCP out of the loop. Not in terms of IRL PLEX sales (which have anyways been shown to be remarkably resilient to fluctuations on ingame funny money), but rather in terms of ingame activity levels which are crucial and central to many players experience of EVE. These players control the PLEX market, not CCP.
5)So would/will this result in more subbing? Unlikely. Will this result in increase of account activity? Hell no!
PvE v PvP
|
Skeln Thargensen
katana spelunking trips
592
|
Posted - 2015.09.15 21:14:09 -
[220] - Quote
PLEX are in a bubble!!!
(they're in the can in teh bubble. it's not a tarp)
forums. -áserious business.
|
|
Vollhov
Senators of Eridan Red Alliance
248
|
Posted - 2015.09.15 21:22:19 -
[221] - Quote
Excellent. Now the you can buy behind plex of the Paladin and rig t2. Just throw $ a game.
Thank for helping CCP get away with Eve.
Jamyl Sarum "Good and evil"
Jamyl Sarum in "EVE: Templar One"
Jamyl the Great
|
Zihao
Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave
79
|
Posted - 2015.09.15 21:25:25 -
[222] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Someone(s) in EVE have wrestled control of PLEX from CCP and the consumers, by buying up and stockpiling the limited amount that is introduced to the game.
Those someones being customers of CCP and consumers themselves and they're just as entitled to buy and hold PLEX as you are to buy and expend them for game-time. |
Vic Jefferson
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
592
|
Posted - 2015.09.15 21:44:01 -
[223] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:PLEX took an arrow to the heel, and its adventuring days are over.
You aren't factoring in anything from the buyer's end. I am far more likely to purchase PLEX when prices are this high, because they sell for so much ISK, allowing one to do hilariously silly and reckless things for not much time investment.
For the price of a burger and a beer, I could buy a carrier and welp it for amusement's sake. For the price of two burgers and two beers, I could have a burger and beer while I welp a carrier. Now we are talking!
Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X
|
Salvos Rhoska
1455
|
Posted - 2015.09.15 22:09:19 -
[224] - Quote
Zihao wrote:Those someones being customers of CCP and consumers themselves and they're just as entitled to buy and hold PLEX as you are to buy and expend them for game-time. Yes.
None of which is contrary to what I stated.
Thanks for stating the obvious and irrelevant.
Vic Jefferson wrote:You aren't factoring in anything from the buyer's end. I am far more likely to purchase PLEX when prices are this high, because they sell for so much ISK, allowing one to do hilariously silly and reckless things for not much time investment. Did I forget to include that here? I've made so many posts I might have lost track. Yes, I am aware of that. But studies of suppliers show that increase/decrease in value of PLEX in isk does not really effect PLEX RLM demand much.
How many PLEX have you purchased from CCP?
Also, you do realize that when I buy the PLEX from you, I retain and appreciate its value? You run off and blow up your ship and lose it. Me, on the otherhand, I still have your PLEX. At full value, and can re-sell it for more than you did, without ever spending 1 cent of RLM on it.
PvE v PvP
|
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
576
|
Posted - 2015.09.15 22:16:48 -
[225] - Quote
If CCP became worried about plex stockpiling, an easy solution if they deemed necessary is to just stop sales.
However if I was CCP, I would have legal evidence that it is an ingame asset which has since been redeemed. If somebody spent all that isk to get 1000 plex, well they might very well have something never to get used. Let em control the market. CCP happy. Higher price means plex sellers more liable to control plex. Plex not redeemed means nil to CCP. It would to me...
If it starts flooding market, rate of consumption will not change unless they are flooded for an ungodly low price. In which case those players took a loss.
Plex is pretty close to a real world commodity. However is a dangerous game. If eve stops operating, then value is a pure zero.
To quote Lfod Shi
The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
|
Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6804
|
Posted - 2015.09.15 22:45:51 -
[226] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:But studies of suppliers show that increase/decrease in value of PLEX in isk does not really effect PLEX RLM demand much. Ergo, rising PLEX price doesn't affect income for CCP. Game continues as ever it has.
Salvos Rhoska wrote:You run off and blow up your ship and lose it. Me, on the otherhand, I still have your PLEX. At full value, and can re-sell it for more than you did, without ever spending 1 cent of RLM on it. The part you miss out is that you already handed value over, so you're not up the value of the PLEX. At first you are even then as price increase you are up whatever that profit between the time you buy and sell the PLEX. That you retain the value of the item is irrelevant. That happens whenever anyone creates anything in game from a source (mining, NPC loot drops, etc).
The isk you gave to him goes to someone else for him to buy a ship and the ship gets wrecked. So effectively all he's doing is injecting a PLEX and removing minerals, which there are a ludicrous amount of being injected constantly. It has very little effect on anything beyond the value of a PLEX, which is why we see little or no change in other indices when the PLEX price rises. The only time the value of PLEX actually matters is when you consume it.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
|
Vic Jefferson
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
594
|
Posted - 2015.09.15 23:25:00 -
[227] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:How many PLEX have you purchased from CCP?
A few. Not any recently. I don't think there's many things that I don't already own in game that I want to own, or wouldn't be trivial for me to replace or buy using in game means at this point.
It's a long thread. Maybe it was mentioned somewhere. If everything worth flying wasn't small, fast, and cheap, there may be more demand for PLEX from a buyer's perspective. Expensive ships are overly cumbersome for many people to fly. I can buy, what, 10 or more well fit svipuls for one PLEX? The BC buff won't fix this much either as they are T1 hulls and are incredibly cheap to fly after insurance. Basically what I mean to say is you get more re-ships per ISK now than you used to with the current meta, which may translate to more reships per PLEX. Even bling is hilariously cheap these days.
I'd buy PLEX, but there's literally nothing to spend it on.
Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X
|
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1506
|
Posted - 2015.09.15 23:36:55 -
[228] - Quote
Skeln Thargensen wrote:PLEX are in a bubble!!!
I think of bubbles as the situation where the actual practical value of a commodity is detached from its speculative investment value.
An example of this is our local real estate market where many apartments are empty because the rents are beyond what people are prepared to pay. When I asked a real estate friend about this his reply was "if you drop the rent its value as a speculative investment plummets, you are fair better off keeping the rent up and leaving it vacant". |
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
576
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 00:24:48 -
[229] - Quote
Hasikan Miallok wrote:
I think of bubbles as the situation where the actual practical value of a commodity is detached from its speculative investment value.
An example of this is our local real estate market where many apartments are empty because the rents are beyond what people are prepared to pay. When I asked a real estate friend about this his reply was "if you drop the rent its value as a speculative investment plummets, you are fair better off keeping the rent up and leaving it vacant".
That is interesting. A very close friend of mine, him and his family own a major downtown apartment block. In addition, their rent in this extremely well maintained building has a vacancy of never and long term residence. Their reasoning?
Well, they could charge more, but why? Just to make more money? Their operational costs have not increased and when there is a rent increase, is explained and they maintain all their renters. Result is their overhead costs are minimal and income perfectly stable. The tenants wanting to stay in the building look after it. The waiting list, people wait literally years for if a room opens up.
100% of 80% market is better than 0% of 100%. The market forecasting for stuff like that is all luckers. Gotta make money and get out, somebody always loses. That hurts the whole economy. People wonder why it is crap? It is concern over a quick buck instead of long term stability.
Example of false value increase. My property since buying has increased 4 fold in value to total investment, but only cause people want it to flip/rent at overcharged cost. My actual costs have increased absolutely none.
To quote Lfod Shi
The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
|
Zihao
Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave
79
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 00:40:02 -
[230] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Thanks for stating the obvious and irrelevant. Irrelevant would be the distinction you're drawing between speculators and consumers. |
|
Chrome Veinss
SUNDERING Goonswarm Federation
6
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 05:00:27 -
[231] - Quote
I have always thought that the problem isnt the price of PLEX, or the speculators and hoarders. Really the problem is how PLEX is used mainly to fund alt accounts. The more alt accounts a person has, the easier it is to make isk, and therefore the easier it is to buy more PLEX and fund more accounts with PLEX. I've never considered getting more than 1 alt account and can barely comprehend the motivations of people that have 12, just like i cant comprehend why would anyone want a super. I'd like to think that theres "no wrong way to play eve" but the fact is that certain behaviors are detrimental to the game itself. The overabundance of alts per player is one of those behaviors. Every single time a player does anything in this game with an alt, rather than cooperating with other people, Eve loses a chance for the kind of social interaction and engagement that sets this game apart from any other games out there. I understand there are plenty of activities where using alts is just more practical, but that only showcases how terribly designed and boring a lot of activities in Eve are. I'm not arguing for a cap on the number of accounts a person has, rather I'd like to see a game where playing with other people is more fun than players having entire corporations of their own alts.
For every "rich" vet with 10 alts that considers a price hike from 900 mill to 1.2 bill a minor annoyance, there are likely a dozen newbies that quit the game entirely, because 300 million when youre a belt ratting newbie is all your income for the month if you're doing everything right and playing a lot. Newbies do the math and see 10 hours of work to make x quantity of isk. While the guy multiboxing incursions sees 1 hour of work with 10 alts. Also for every american or european that makes $20 in an hour of real life work there are a dozen people from other countries making $20 or less for an entire day of the same work. These people want to play the game but the only way they can afford it is by plexing their account. I used to see a lot of them before CCP had the fantastic idea of eliminating the language channels and I'd say 90% of them would disappear after the trial or their first subscription month because they just couldn't make enough isk, or getting that isk involved too much time. And thats when PLEX was 700-800 mill.
Eve needs a lot more players. There are way too many systems for the quantity of players we currently have, resulting in most space being empty most of the time and there being little content. Eve also probably wouldnt work as a free game, so a good compromise would be a relatively cheap PLEX that allows an influx of new players, especially from the so called "developing world". PLEX price can only drop to that level if there is a massive overhaul to gameplay mechanics that results in people playing the game with a dozen alts as outrageous and stupid as trying to play say Dota by multiboxing your entire team.
|
Scotchmo
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 05:11:01 -
[232] - Quote
This game is more expensive per month than World of Warcraft.
I dunno how.
Its a bold statement to say "we got a better product than the most popular mmo so we can charge more"
I seriously think it should cost less per month.
Plex RL prices should be halfed. People will buy more, in game price will fall and Newbs can aspire to plex their account thus living the free to play dream.
Pray this brings in more people. |
La Rynx
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
382
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 05:22:43 -
[233] - Quote
Hoarding Plexes is not my problem, its the horders. If the Horders would try to make a big amount of isk from PLEX, the price would drop again.
As for me, i buy the PLEX from CCP, i pay always the same. (almost) Player RM = same CCP RM = same
CCP needs RM to pay ppl and servers.
PLEX ingame (speak value in the actual -> game) depends on other factors. But whatever all is in control of CCP.
CCP can floof the market by creating new ingame PLEX, CCP can increase the isk income, so it would take 1hour to make a billion and more.
Ppl hoarding PLEX? If they have hoarded 2000 Years of game time and CCP closes. What can the horders do? NOTHING! PLEX is also some kind of trust someone puts on CCP to keep the promise of delievering gametiime.
PLEX are not ment to play EvE for free. PLEX are meant to trade game time for other ingame items. There is a small buit important difference. It is literally a trade of time, ppl can buy gametime they do not have tp ppl who have more of gametime. This frees RealTimefor PLEX sellers who give up on RealTime.
Sinking playercount is problem, PLEXC prices merely indicate, but hardly are a reason for the decrease.
Atomic Virulent : "You can't spell DOUCHE. without CODE."
|
La Rynx
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
382
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 05:31:14 -
[234] - Quote
Scotchmo wrote:This game is more expensive per month than World of Warcraft.
I dunno how.
Its a bold statement to say "we got a better product than the most popular mmo so we can charge more"
Nobody other than you says that. Comparing MassCompatible WoW with EvE is not that easy and "being better" is good for nothing.
Scotchmo wrote: I seriously think it should cost less per month.
I seriously think, i do not care what you think.
I mean: I beg to differ;
Scotchmo wrote: Plex RL prices should be halfed. People will buy more, in game price will fall and Newbs can aspire to plex their account thus living the free to play dream.
Pray this brings in more people.
Thats one hefty missconception / hope some ppl carry. In no way free EvE would get more players. EvE is like beer or whiskey. You have to grow and adapt to the taste. EvE is not to everyones taste.
And changing EvE to keep old and get new players is science in it self.
EDIT: I do not pray for anything.
Atomic Virulent : "You can't spell DOUCHE. without CODE."
|
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1507
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 05:46:28 -
[235] - Quote
Likely longterm scenario:
1) The need for ISK is fairly constant so as prices rise less PLEX will hit the market. ( The number of people buying extra PLEX for real money to take advantage of higher ISK/PLEX ratios is minimal in the greater scheme of things)
2) The amount of PLEX bought ingame by speculators will rise as PLEX keeps rising. Also in a "bull" market there is never a good time to sell you are always better off hording for even longer. People will just keep adding to the PLEX stash.
3) The amount of PLEX bought ingame by players to sub accounts will drop as PLEX keeps rising and they unsub those accounts.
Longterm result - PLEX will enter the game at the current rate (CCP income will not be effected) but it will become a speculative commodity in-game mainly bought up and horded. |
Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12362
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 05:53:07 -
[236] - Quote
Irony strikes, back when plex was cheap gas prices were high (or 3 bucks a gallon and rising). Now Plex is over 1 bil but I just filled my care up with $1.95 gasoline 10 minutes ago.
Coincidence? I think not... |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6848
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 06:19:31 -
[237] - Quote
La Rynx wrote:Ppl hoarding PLEX? If they have hoarded 2000 Years of game time and CCP closes. Then welp, what else would they do with the ISK...
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3342
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 07:06:20 -
[238] - Quote
Hasikan Miallok wrote:Likely longterm scenario:
1) The need for ISK is fairly constant so as prices rise less PLEX will hit the market. ( The number of people buying extra PLEX for real money to take advantage of higher ISK/PLEX ratios is minimal in the greater scheme of things)
2) The amount of PLEX bought ingame by speculators will rise as PLEX keeps rising. Also in a "bull" market there is never a good time to sell you are always better off hording for even longer. People will just keep adding to the PLEX stash.
3) The amount of PLEX bought ingame by players to sub accounts will drop as PLEX keeps rising and they unsub those accounts.
Longterm result - PLEX will enter the game at the current rate (CCP income will not be effected) but it will become a speculative commodity in-game mainly bought up and horded.
1. As the the price of PLEX in game rises, then there is more incentive to buy them and sell them. Keep in mind that the price out of game is constant or falling over time.
2. Speculators often serve a useful purpose in markets ensuring that market prices are accurate. However, people will not necessarily "just keep adding to the PLEX stash". If this were true, then a bull market could never turn into a bear market.
3. If this is the case, then the price of PLEX will drop.
You are just spouting nonsense. You make it sound like speculation is a Bad ThingGäó when in fact speculators can help ensure that prices reflect all relevant information.
Here is some information to consider, the price of PLEX was pretty stable for awhile, but when skins are introduced PLEX prices jump up....oh and you can buy skins with PLEX.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3342
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 07:20:02 -
[239] - Quote
Mir Jana wrote:1.2b isk...
ffs.... WoT dont charge anything.... LoL dont charge anything... Neverwinter dont charge anything... ffs, chesscube dont charge anything...
why do I have to spend 3 hours daily to rat to be able to pvp on weekends... ?!?!
wtf....?!?!
Because you are doing it wrong? Funny how when a miner says, "If I mine my own minerals they are free," the cacophany is "OPPORTUNITY COST!!!" Yet you fail that same test so utterly when it comes to PLEX. Does your RL job pay that little?
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6805
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 08:36:18 -
[240] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Mir Jana wrote:1.2b isk...
ffs.... WoT dont charge anything.... LoL dont charge anything... Neverwinter dont charge anything... ffs, chesscube dont charge anything...
why do I have to spend 3 hours daily to rat to be able to pvp on weekends... ?!?!
wtf....?!?! Because you are doing it wrong? Funny how when a miner says, "If I mine my own minerals they are free," the cacophany is "OPPORTUNITY COST!!!" Yet you fail that same test so utterly when it comes to PLEX. Does your RL job pay that little? Depending on the job, opportunity cost doesn't really work the same way in real life. Most people don;t have an infinite amount of overtime available, hell, most people don't have overtime frequently. Opportunity cost only works if the opportunity is always there, otherwise the best course of action is to do you job then in the between time do the lower value stuff. Like how an ice miner will mine all the ice then resort to ore once there's no ice about.
That said, the guy is still a fool as EVE is a game, it's here for entertainment. I make isk for PLEX because it entertains me to do so. If I had to "work" to make the isk and it stopped being a simple effect of me enjoying the game, I'd not do it.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
|
|
Zifrian
Licentia Ex Vereor Phoebe Freeport Republic
1657
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 11:58:35 -
[241] - Quote
I don't think it's a coincidence that plex prices rose dramatically after CCP released multi-char training and skins. I also don't think it's a coincidence that plex prices crashed when isboxer was banned. And now I don't think it's a coincidence that prices are rising again with most is boxers gone from the game, new skins added, and fan fest coming up (pay with plex).
In a nutshell, it seems like this is just supply and demand. Sure there are hoarders, but they take a risk in doing so - there is no free lunch here. Plus, people still buy plex at the price listed for whatever they do with them. I know because I've sold plenty lately.
I'd love to see detailed data on this market some time to really theorize but the parallels to people whining about the price of something due to free market economics in RL is telling. I liken it to people who cry murder when uber uses dynamic pricing to charge $100 a mile for a cab after a major event in the city or when gas prices rise above $3 a gallon. Maybe we should call a special session of the CSM to denounce plex price gouging and set up a panel to study the "problem"....or maybe some of us should just accept that we don't really like capitalism, especially when it's not "fair" to our own wants and needs.
GÇ£Any fool can criticize, condemn, and complain - and most fools do. GÇ¥ - Dale Carnegie
Maximze your Industry Potential! - Download EVE Isk per Hour!
|
Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12362
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 12:26:14 -
[242] - Quote
Mir Jana wrote:1 account Eve = 1 account in WoT + 1 account in LoL + 1 account in (random game name) = more fun then EVE at these plex prices...
If PLEX prices are impacting your 'fun' that just means your way of thinking is the problem, not the price of PLEX.
This is a very good example of what another poster said here, PLEX fooled ignorant people into thinking the game was 'free'. Notice how the above poster lists nothing but free to play games in his comparison to EVE. |
Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
576
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 12:50:12 -
[243] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Mir Jana wrote:1 account Eve = 1 account in WoT + 1 account in LoL + 1 account in (random game name) = more fun then EVE at these plex prices... If PLEX prices are impacting your 'fun' that just means your way of thinking is the problem, not the price of PLEX. This is a very good example of what another poster said here, PLEX fooled ignorant people into thinking the game was 'free'. Notice how the above poster lists nothing but free to play games in his comparison to EVE.
I understand that Plex doesn't change the fun level of Eve... but what does it say about Eve that players would rather play free games than this one?
I said it before, I will say it again, and you will undoubtedly white-knight to the bitter end. Many players are willing to play Eve when it is free to them through Plex. Just because it is worth playing doesn't mean it is worth paying for to these players.
Best description of Eve Online and why the community is the way it is
|
Gillia Winddancer
Aliastra Gallente Federation
440
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 12:58:19 -
[244] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Mir Jana wrote:1 account Eve = 1 account in WoT + 1 account in LoL + 1 account in (random game name) = more fun then EVE at these plex prices... If PLEX prices are impacting your 'fun' that just means your way of thinking is the problem, not the price of PLEX. This is a very good example of what another poster said here, PLEX fooled ignorant people into thinking the game was 'free'. Notice how the above poster lists nothing but free to play games in his comparison to EVE. I understand that Plex doesn't change the fun level of Eve... but what does it say about Eve that players would rather play free games than this one? I said it before, I will say it again, and you will undoubtedly white-knight to the bitter end. Many players are willing to play Eve when it is free to them through Plex. Just because it is worth playing doesn't mean it is worth paying for to these players.
First, EVE is not free. Second, PLEX prices are set by market supply and demand.
Thus, players are only willing to play EVE via PLEX only is an argument that is null and void. If they don't like the situation then either they ask their mommy if they can borrow her credit card or they bugger off and do something else.
Also, who the hell is stupid enough to start grading fun-factor to PLEX or prices anyway? Specially for a game like EVE?
|
Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12362
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 12:58:51 -
[245] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Mir Jana wrote:1 account Eve = 1 account in WoT + 1 account in LoL + 1 account in (random game name) = more fun then EVE at these plex prices... If PLEX prices are impacting your 'fun' that just means your way of thinking is the problem, not the price of PLEX. This is a very good example of what another poster said here, PLEX fooled ignorant people into thinking the game was 'free'. Notice how the above poster lists nothing but free to play games in his comparison to EVE. I understand that Plex doesn't change the fun level of Eve... but what does it say about Eve that players would rather play free games than this one?
It says that in general gamers suck, are cheapskates and we are better off without them.
Quote: I said it before, I will say it again, and you will undoubtedly white-knight to the bitter end. Many players are willing to play Eve when it is free to them through Plex. Just because it is worth playing doesn't mean it is worth paying for to these players.
Screw them. The problem is a screwed up mentality ("something I like is worth the time it takes to get plex, but it's not worth 50 cents a day!"). CCP and EVE aren't responsible for the screwed up mentality of today's instant gratification gamer.
More to the point, it's CCP's efforts to attain more of these types of people that have driven REAL EVE players (people with a sense of responsibly, a sense of patience, and sense of context (15 bucks a month is cheap for epic video game entertainment) and who know how to make 50 cents in a 24 hour span of time) away from the game.
While I don't believe EVE is in any danger, I'd rather see it actually die rather than cater to the kinds of horribly entitled whiners you'd love to see it populated by. |
Salvos Rhoska
1457
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 13:14:42 -
[246] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Ergo, rising PLEX price doesn't affect income for CCP. Game continues as ever it has. Where have I said anything different? Where did you even pull this completely disconnected statement out of?
Lucas Kell wrote:]The part you miss out is that you already handed value over, so you're not up the value of the PLEX. I've never said anything that even remotely contradicts this. I didn't "miss" any part out. I said exactly this and carried this point in my post.
Your responses are schizophrenic in that it seems you are having an imaginary discussion with someone in your own head, rather than with what I have written. You make false implications and assumptions and misrepresent what the other person has said, to the result that its like you are arguing with yourself, rather than what I have said.
Learn to read what is actually being said. Not what you IMAGINE is being said.
Zihao wrote:Irrelevant would be the distinction you're drawing between speculators and consumers. Speculators and consumers are different and distinct in this case. Both as demographics and in their behavior.
You have no point.
PvE v PvP
|
Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12362
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 13:16:10 -
[247] - Quote
Gillia Winddancer wrote:
Also, who the hell is stupid enough to start grading fun-factor to PLEX or prices anyway? Specially for a game like EVE?
Members of the crappiest generation ever |
Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
576
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 13:18:32 -
[248] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Market McSelling Alt wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Mir Jana wrote:1 account Eve = 1 account in WoT + 1 account in LoL + 1 account in (random game name) = more fun then EVE at these plex prices... If PLEX prices are impacting your 'fun' that just means your way of thinking is the problem, not the price of PLEX. This is a very good example of what another poster said here, PLEX fooled ignorant people into thinking the game was 'free'. Notice how the above poster lists nothing but free to play games in his comparison to EVE. I understand that Plex doesn't change the fun level of Eve... but what does it say about Eve that players would rather play free games than this one? It says that in general gamers suck, are cheapskates and we are better off without them. Quote: I said it before, I will say it again, and you will undoubtedly white-knight to the bitter end. Many players are willing to play Eve when it is free to them through Plex. Just because it is worth playing doesn't mean it is worth paying for to these players.
Screw them. The problem is a screwed up mentality ("something I like is worth the time it takes to get plex, but it's not worth 50 cents a day!"). CCP and EVE aren't responsible for the screwed up mentality of today's instant gratification gamer. More to the point, it's CCP's efforts to attain more of these types of people that have driven REAL EVE players (people with a sense of responsibly, a sense of patience, and sense of context (15 bucks a month is cheap for epic video game entertainment) and who know how to make 50 cents in a 24 hour span of time) away from the game. While I don't believe EVE is in any danger, I'd rather see it actually die rather than cater to the kinds of horribly entitled whiners you'd love to see it populated by.
You'd rather see it die... how noble your cause.
What is it again that CCP has done since 2009 to "attain" new players? Was it all that new shinny content they added like two iterations of Sov and ship skins?
My point had nothing to do with plex actually. It was more about Eve. CCP needs to make Eve beat free to play games, and if you think players are the problem and not CCP, then we can stop this discussion right now and watch the water drain to the bottom of the bowl together.
Best description of Eve Online and why the community is the way it is
|
Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12362
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 13:33:22 -
[249] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
You'd rather see it die... how noble your cause.
What is it again that CCP has done since 2009 to "attain" new players? Was it all that new shinny content they added like two iterations of Sov and ship skins?
Safety. Rules and mechanics bent on crushing people who actually do interesting things in the hopes that LoL playing non-contributing zeros will stay a bit longer.....
Pop ups for EVERYTHING ("oh no, don't scratch your left arse cheek, you might get a - 0.000001 reduction in sec status if you do), and lets not forget all the PVE they added in that time. When I started BELT RATTING was profitable, now we have endlessly spawning anoms, high sec sites in low sec, epic arcs, burners, drifters, sleepers, incursions, clone soldiers, pirate faction ships coming out of high sec LP stores, pirate faction ships dropping (in the form of redeemable chips) from Drone sites, ghost sites, mordus sites, easier scanning, a freaking exploration mini game and loads of introduced PVE specific modules and deployables.
Even after all that, that 'flood of new players' never materialized. Because all those additons and changes weren't enough. Till EVe has 'levels' so that players can 'catch up' and standard mmo style "instances" that can't be penetrated by other players so they can be 'left alone', EVE will never ever be popular.
Quote: My point had nothing to do with plex actually. It was more about Eve. CCP needs to make Eve beat free to play games, and if you think players are the problem and not CCP, then we can stop this discussion right now and watch the water drain to the bottom of the bowl together.
It does beat free to play games, for the right type of player. CCP needs to find the right type of player, rather than what they've been doing. Along with their wrong headed watering down of EVE over the past 6 or so years, Their marketing (to incompatibles like 'standard' instant gratification mmo players and Original Elite/Wing Commander "jet fighters in space" nostolgics) is the big problem (if there is a problem). CCP should be marketing to people who like engineering type challenges, people who find 'high finance' simulators appealing, and it wouldn't hurt to advertise in magazines read by people who would find EVE naturally appealing.
|
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
577
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 13:56:11 -
[250] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Mir Jana wrote:1 account Eve = 1 account in WoT + 1 account in LoL + 1 account in (random game name) = more fun then EVE at these plex prices... If PLEX prices are impacting your 'fun' that just means your way of thinking is the problem, not the price of PLEX. This is a very good example of what another poster said here, PLEX fooled ignorant people into thinking the game was 'free'. Notice how the above poster lists nothing but free to play games in his comparison to EVE.
LoL, I spent more in that per month than eve.... Proper FTP, a fun game, well made, I will spend money in bling.
To quote Lfod Shi
The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
|
|
Captain Awkward
Republic University Minmatar Republic
54
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 14:03:33 -
[251] - Quote
People are willing to throw out huge amounts of money at pay to win games and mobile games that offer only a fraction of what EvE is.
People pay monthly sub for pay TV. People pay 10 $ / Gé¼ / ... to get into a 2 hour cinema movie. People by Fastfood for 6+ $ / Gé¼ / ... for a single meal.
And jet they complain when it comes to monthly 15 $ / Gé¼ / ... for EvE. |
Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6805
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 15:37:04 -
[252] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:stuff I did read what was said, you were banging on (with your usual verbosity) about retained value as if it means a damn thing. I'm yet to see you make a valid and relevant point. No need to get all upset friend.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
|
Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6805
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 15:44:36 -
[253] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:It does beat free to play games, for the right type of player. CCP needs to find the right type of player, rather than what they've been doing. Along with their wrong headed watering down of EVE over the past 6 or so years, Their marketing (to incompatibles like 'standard' instant gratification mmo players and Original Elite/Wing Commander "jet fighters in space" nostolgics) is the big problem (if there is a problem). CCP should be marketing to people who like engineering type challenges, people who find 'high finance' simulators appealing, and it wouldn't hurt to advertise in magazines read by people who would find EVE naturally appealing. I agree on marketing, that's a problem area for CCP, but with your pother points, the problem isn't that they make too many PvE mechanics or make it marginally harder for "pirates" to have an easy ride, it's that the type of people they've let be the face of this community are generally the most anti-social neckbeards that can possibly be found. The amount of elitist spew that comes from people who at the end of the day are playing a no-skill minimum effort space spreadsheet game is shocking, and turns most people away.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
|
Zifrian
Licentia Ex Vereor Phoebe Freeport Republic
1657
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 16:01:02 -
[254] - Quote
Captain Awkward wrote:People are willing to throw out huge amounts of money at pay to win games and mobile games that offer only a fraction of what EvE is.
People pay monthly sub for pay TV. People pay 10 $ / Gé¼ / ... to get into a 2 hour cinema movie. People by Fastfood for 6+ $ / Gé¼ / ... for a single meal. People pay for the gym without even going there once.
And jet they complain when it comes to monthly 15 $ / Gé¼ / ... for EvE. Relevant - http://theoatmeal.com/blog/apps
GÇ£Any fool can criticize, condemn, and complain - and most fools do. GÇ¥ - Dale Carnegie
Maximze your Industry Potential! - Download EVE Isk per Hour!
|
MrQuisno
Perkone Caldari State
6
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 16:03:34 -
[255] - Quote
Hello,
Plex prices will not stop any time soon. Their will be slowly down point but it wont be for while. For these who pay for the game their will be no problems. But for theses who play the game for free well this will be a dying trend soon. enjoy what time left you have left in the game. " pay up or quit ". No player will want to play the game for 80+ hours a week to pay 4b month per account unless you got hours to place in the game which most don't. enjoy what time you have left.. may plex cards hit 10b :))
|
Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12365
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 16:25:52 -
[256] - Quote
Zifrian wrote:Captain Awkward wrote:People are willing to throw out huge amounts of money at pay to win games and mobile games that offer only a fraction of what EvE is.
People pay monthly sub for pay TV. People pay 10 $ / Gé¼ / ... to get into a 2 hour cinema movie. People by Fastfood for 6+ $ / Gé¼ / ... for a single meal. People pay for the gym without even going there once.
And jet they complain when it comes to monthly 15 $ / Gé¼ / ... for EvE. Relevant - http://theoatmeal.com/blog/apps
Perfect
I can't remember the name for this phenomenon, but it has to do with the fact that human beings are natural comparison shoppers and tend think of things in relation to like-kind things, and not in more general terms. I say tend because we obvoulsy don't all do that. As your cartoon suggests, people do it with apps all the time.
For example, yesterday during my lunch break I went to Mcdonalds and spend $7.73 on a Double Quarterpounder meal (if my wife asked, it was actually a healthy salad with low fat dressing a side of tofu or some such bullshit lol). That's a little more than half of what a sub for one of my EVE accounts cost in terms of real money. That me kept me satisfied for maybe 5-6 hours till the next meal, the same amount of money would have provided me with 15 almost 16 DAYS of experiencing EVE online, and with much less artery clogging cholesterol lol.
But for others, it's a bad deal because other games are 'free'. Most gamers think like this (along with their "I need to catch up" and "I want to be left alone" BS), one of many reasons why I dislike mainstream gamers and love EVE for it's almost 'anti-gamer' mentality. A mentality that has sadly been eroded over time.
|
Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12365
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 16:31:29 -
[257] - Quote
MrQuisno wrote:Hello,
Plex prices will not stop any time soon. Their will be slowly down point but it wont be for while. For these who pay for the game their will be no problems. But for theses who play the game for free well this will be a dying trend soon. enjoy what time left you have left in the game. " pay up or quit ". No player will want to play the game for 80+ hours a week to pay 4b month per account unless you got hours to place in the game which most don't. enjoy what time you have left.. may plex cards hit 10b :))
10 bil plex and I'm quitting! lol 'j/k
I don't "like" the PLEX prices, I too like plexing my accounts, and at current prices, that means 4.8 bil worth of 'overhead'. Even for someone like my who rats with 2, sometime 3 accounts at once, that's not chump change, that's ike 40% of my average monthly in game income.
Thing is, I know PLEX is a luxury, and back when it was cheap, I knew it couldn't last because I knew from experience how easy it was to make isk. One time I got a bil worth of mods from one 10/10 and thought "whelp, that's 2 plex done for 35 minutes work!".
Nothing in real life stays easy, a game that emulates key facets of real life (which is what EVE does despite the spaceship background) is going to work the same way. Doesn't mean i liek it, it means I accept reality.
|
Vortexo VonBrenner
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord
2150
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 16:40:43 -
[258] - Quote
Zifrian wrote:Captain Awkward wrote:People are willing to throw out huge amounts of money at pay to win games and mobile games that offer only a fraction of what EvE is.
People pay monthly sub for pay TV. People pay 10 $ / Gé¼ / ... to get into a 2 hour cinema movie. People by Fastfood for 6+ $ / Gé¼ / ... for a single meal. People pay for the gym without even going there once.
And jet they complain when it comes to monthly 15 $ / Gé¼ / ... for EvE. Relevant - http://theoatmeal.com/blog/apps
+1
ITT: ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED?
|
Dersen Lowery
Scanners Live in Vain
1754
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 16:48:04 -
[259] - Quote
I honestly think that account PLEXing has more to do with a sense of mastery over the game than it has to do with saving $15. "I'm so good, I play for free! Unlike all those bads who actually pay cash every month."
The trouble with that is that as the ISK price of PLEX has gone up, the "bad, lazy" people who sell PLEX for ISK--get a better and better deal for their money. The "good, elite" people who have "mastered" the game find themselves grinding more and more to keep that title--and they complain when they feel that they're having to work too hard to keep their status. Nobody ever likes to lose status, not even internet space status.
At any rate, you don't just take a game F2P. You have to design (or redesign) the game around that. Given that CCP is hard at work redesigning the game, it's not impossible that they could do this, but I'm not sold on whether it's likely or desirable. $15/mo is cheap for what the game offers.
If there's a problem, it's that EVE's marketing is way off. It's not an action title, though it can be. It's not a PVP game in the way that 90% of the population things of PVP, nor is it a PVE game--though you can play it that way, sort of, sometimes.
Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.
I voted in CSM X!
|
Zihao
Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave
81
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 16:49:15 -
[260] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote: Speculators and consumers are different and distinct in this case. Both as demographics and in their behavior. It is extremely relevant to my point.
I'm sure it's relevant to your point, but your point itself is irrelevant. CCP is paid by the person buying a PLEX whether he turns around and sells it to you or a speculator. |
|
MrQuisno
Perkone Caldari State
6
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 16:59:20 -
[261] - Quote
Is it just me or is their group messing with plex cards right now? last few days it seem they have jump 150m iskes. was at 1.278b now 1.350b... last I check one person mess with one type of market is bad for the game... |
Zihao
Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave
81
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 17:05:38 -
[262] - Quote
Grr markets. How dare people other than me use them. It's probably just one evil rich guy.... |
La Rynx
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
382
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 17:09:27 -
[263] - Quote
EvE is NOT expensive.
EvE is more a hobby than a game. In my book games are supposed to be more fun, then EvE is. And comparing to hobbies like RC-Helikopters or Planes, Fishing, Snowboarding, surfing EvE does not cost lots of money. Also the required Hardware is not so expensive. Cheap Laptops can handle at least one client, let alone modern Desktops. I assume it would run on tablets if ported.
OK, except you are a teen with only allowance. The actual price should be no problem.
Different to WoW EvE does not want money for upgrade, but to be fair, Blizz adds far more content into addons than CCP. But thats the difference in man and moneypower. And expierience in game development that CCP lacks.
MrQuisno wrote:Is it just me or is their group messing with plex cards right now? last few days it seem they have jump 150m iskes. was at 1.278b now 1.350b... last I check one person mess with one type of market is bad for the game...
So be it! And then what? If the player count drops to fast, the hoarder sits on a heap of plex he is unable to sell. This could backfire hard.
Atomic Virulent : "You can't spell DOUCHE. without CODE."
|
Blade Darth
Room for Improvement Limited Expectations
0
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 17:59:46 -
[264] - Quote
It's getting pretty ridiculous... Can't even plex my main account, CTA's, hostiles in local, fleets etc. take lots of game time and doing this+ grinding 1b+ isk is too much. |
Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12369
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 18:32:03 -
[265] - Quote
Blade Darth wrote:It's getting pretty ridiculous... Can't even plex my main account, CTA's, hostiles in local, fleets etc. take lots of game time and doing this+ grinding 1b+ isk is too much.
Damn if you don't have the right corp and alliance names. |
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
579
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 18:39:03 -
[266] - Quote
La Rynx wrote:EvE is NOT expensive.
EvE is more a hobby than a game. In my book games are supposed to be more fun, then EvE is. And comparing to hobbies like RC-Helikopters or Planes, Fishing, Snowboarding, surfing EvE does not cost lots of money.
My CONTROLLER for RC plane = two years of eve sub. I don't even want to think the cost per hour of usage comparison. Toss in vintage motorcycles into the mix.... insanity. If these people who think 15 bucks a month is too much, try insuring a large displacement sport bike.....
Blade Darth wrote:It's getting pretty ridiculous... Can't even plex my main account, CTA's, hostiles in local, fleets etc. take lots of game time and doing this+ grinding 1b+ isk is too much.
And that is the issue. Farming etc has resulted in an expectation for rate of earning. It isn't fun because people expect too much simply because some broken forms of income result in high yields. Drives up operational costs, more time spent less fun or lack of time is lack of funds to match the meta.
To quote Lfod Shi
The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
|
Divine Entervention
Legion's Knights Of The Round Intrepid Crossing
605
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 18:46:18 -
[267] - Quote
Well, imo this game (and society but that's a different story) needs less lazy poor people.
So high PLEX prices = less undesireables so this is a great situation for the rest of us. |
Bagrat Skalski
Poseidaon
9616
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 18:51:47 -
[268] - Quote
This game needs more lazy wealthy people.
But how a lazy person can be welthy? Isn't that oxymoron?
Custom ship skins, character creator style "repaint". Bring it!
|
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
17046
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 20:08:03 -
[269] - Quote
Inheritance or other privilege does the trick pretty well. Or luck.
Anyway, I've become part of the solution and just put 6 PLEX on the market in Jita.
No need to thank me, your ISK will be thanks enough.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
|
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
579
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 20:28:19 -
[270] - Quote
Bagrat Skalski wrote:This game needs more lazy wealthy people.
But how a lazy person can be welthy? Isn't that oxymoron?
Not really. It is feeding off the greed of others, or having others do the work for you and taking a cut.
In eve, it is things that get you stuff you can get for isk with minimal effort. Is an issue, high earning is because it is consistent and predictable, aka broken.
To quote Lfod Shi
The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
|
|
Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
8541
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 20:34:14 -
[271] - Quote
Divine Entervention wrote:Well, imo this game (and society but that's a different story) needs less lazy poor people.
How do you manage to log in, then?
[b]----
CONCORD arrested two n00bs yesterday, one was drinking battery acid, the other was eating fireworks. They charged one and let the other one off.[/b]
|
Aaron
Eternal Frontier
307
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 21:19:23 -
[272] - Quote
I think that Eve has become a capitalist society, CCP want too much for plex lets face it, in the UK a plex is -ú16.99 which is -ú7.00 more than the monthly sub which has prompted the plex sellers to sell at a high price.
Plex prices do not affect me because I sub my 2 accounts. All I have done is read what most of the plex buyers are saying and I have come to the conclusion that we will see numbers drop yet again. CCP should listen to the people who plex their account, it does seem as if they are being ignored.
We will see lots of people cancel their 2nd and 3rd accounts because they are no longer able to generate much profit for the player, I get that people can diversify and go into other areas of the game like FW, WH etc.
Has CCP made any statement about revising the real life cost of plex?
I ask this because I can see this game being ruined, Level with me here, why is the RL plex price an extra 70% on top of the sub price?
Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
|
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
17047
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 21:28:44 -
[273] - Quote
Aaron wrote:I think that Eve has become a capitalist society, CCP want too much for plex lets face it, in the UK a plex is -ú16.99 which is -ú7.00 more than the monthly sub which has prompted the plex sellers to sell at a high price.
Plex prices do not affect me because I sub my 2 accounts. All I have done is read what most of the plex buyers are saying and I have come to the conclusion that we will see numbers drop yet again. CCP should listen to the people who plex their account, it does seem as if they are being ignored.
We will see lots of people cancel their 2nd and 3rd accounts because they are no longer able to generate much profit for the player, I get that people can diversify and go into other areas of the game like FW, WH etc.
Has CCP made any statement about revising the real life cost of plex?
I ask this because I can see this game being ruined, Level with me here, why is the RL plex price an extra 70% on top of the sub price?
Agreed; that price differential is indefensible. CCP urgently need to get more people logging in to keep the game healthy, and dropping the RL price of PLEX to a similar, albeit slightly higher, level than a 1 month sub would be a big step towards that.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
|
Zihao
Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave
85
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 21:57:17 -
[274] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:dropping the RL price of PLEX to a similar, albeit slightly higher, level than a 1 month sub would be a big step towards that.
Seems reasonable. |
ApophisXP
Sadistic Retribution Sadistic Empire
65
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 22:00:28 -
[275] - Quote
MrQuisno wrote:Is it just me or is their group messing with plex cards right now? last few days it seem they have jump 150m iskes. was at 1.278b now 1.350b... last I check one person mess with one type of market is bad for the game...
Market PVP, Its awesome. |
Aaron
Eternal Frontier
309
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 22:04:45 -
[276] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Aaron wrote:I think that Eve has become a capitalist society, CCP want too much for plex lets face it, in the UK a plex is -ú16.99 which is -ú7.00 more than the monthly sub which has prompted the plex sellers to sell at a high price.
Plex prices do not affect me because I sub my 2 accounts. All I have done is read what most of the plex buyers are saying and I have come to the conclusion that we will see numbers drop yet again. CCP should listen to the people who plex their account, it does seem as if they are being ignored.
We will see lots of people cancel their 2nd and 3rd accounts because they are no longer able to generate much profit for the player, I get that people can diversify and go into other areas of the game like FW, WH etc.
Has CCP made any statement about revising the real life cost of plex?
I ask this because I can see this game being ruined, Level with me here, why is the RL plex price an extra 70% on top of the sub price? Agreed; that price differential is indefensible. CCP urgently need to get more people logging in to keep the game healthy, and dropping the RL price of PLEX to a similar, albeit slightly higher, level than a 1 month sub would be a big step towards that.
Indeed, as I've said in a previous post, plex was only designed to stop people creating RL businesses with a warehouse full people grinding/selling isk for real life cash. It seems CCP missed the opportunity to sell isk for many years while these isk for cash businesses made bank.
I think there were many mmo games that suffered from isk for cash businesses. Is CCP trying to recoup lost isk sales for all the years they didn't sell plex? If they are then this is a bad practice which will make the people with a limited RL budget stop playing, the knock-on effect would be the plex for isk sellers will have no customers and maybe their game will become limited because they use plex to pvp and they may not be bothered to grind.
I would suggest a petition thread is started and all the people who want the RL cost of plex reduced should sign it. I think lots of people would sign the petition if they have their eyes open and can see where the game is headed. Not signing this suggested petition will mean the game could sail into treacherous waters.
I'm telling you man I love Eve with a passion and I want to see it run for another 20 years, I'll always be here paying my sub and I know there are many like me. CCP please don't ruin my game by bad business practices.
Yours Faithfully.
Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
|
Aaron
Eternal Frontier
309
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 22:30:59 -
[277] - Quote
I started that petition thread, please sign when you get a chance.
Thanks.
Petition thread for reduced RL PLEX cost.
Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
|
Scotchmo
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 22:42:06 -
[278] - Quote
Divine Entervention wrote:Well, imo this game (and society but that's a different story) needs less lazy poor people.
So high PLEX prices = less undesireables so this is a great situation for the rest of us.
Who is going to give you those dank kill mails cause they were too **** to dock up when you entered local? Lazy kids are the content for the PVPers.
Its funny no one sees this. If you ONLY have plex sellers and let the in game buyers rot, who are you going to catch in anoms? Who will you catch in a WH farming for their plex?
Come on people. |
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1510
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 00:47:44 -
[279] - Quote
In terms of market forces I suppose the predictable outcome is that a lot of alts that do PI and mining and other passive income stuff will get unsubbed and eventually the price of PI and materials will rise and make PLEX affordable for those that stay.
Overall though there will be less resources in game, which of course may be a good thing. |
Amyclas Amatin
SUNDERING Goonswarm Federation
685
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 04:55:53 -
[280] - Quote
3b isk is a reasonable price for plex... if 80% of the population are chinese bot farmers.
For more information on the New Order of High-Sec, please visit: http://www.minerbumping.com/
Remember that whenever you have a bad day in EVE, the correct reponse is "Thank you CCP, may I please have another?"
|
|
Caleb Seremshur
Gladiators of Rage RAZOR Alliance
650
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 06:14:22 -
[281] - Quote
Scotchmo wrote:Divine Entervention wrote:Well, imo this game (and society but that's a different story) needs less lazy poor people.
So high PLEX prices = less undesireables so this is a great situation for the rest of us. Who is going to give you those dank kill mails cause they were too **** to dock up when you entered local? Lazy kids are the content for the PVPers. Its funny no one sees this. If you ONLY have plex sellers and let the in game buyers rot, who are you going to catch in anoms? Who will you catch in a WH farming for their plex? Come on people.
This is perhaps the only legitimate counter argument I've seen on the topic in weeks if not months.
Veteran and solo/small gang PVP advocate.
|
Diamond Zerg
Taking Solo Away.
114
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 06:48:43 -
[282] - Quote
Almost at 1.3b now rofl
Hi.
|
Aerasia
Republic University Minmatar Republic
96
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 07:20:12 -
[283] - Quote
Diamond Zerg wrote:Almost at 1.3b now rofl Have you seen the change in gain over the last couple weeks though?
Something's changed in the market. Maybe PLEX has gone from "Grr expensive!" to "Flip it to win it" in the minds of buyers? Whatever it is, the recent spike looks exceedingly dangerous for anybody trying to hold value in their PLEX. |
Caleb Seremshur
Gladiators of Rage RAZOR Alliance
650
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 08:14:23 -
[284] - Quote
Aerasia wrote:Diamond Zerg wrote:Almost at 1.3b now rofl Have you seen the change in gain over the last couple weeks though? Something's changed in the market. Maybe PLEX has gone from "Grr expensive!" to "Flip it to win it" in the minds of buyers? Whatever it is, the recent spike looks exceedingly dangerous for anybody trying to hold value in their PLEX.
All we can concretely say is that the price will keep rising until the majority of people who PLEX their accounts to stay online stop buying. Say what you will about speculators but if there turns out to be no market to sell it on to then it runs the risk of crashing.
The comparison to gold prices is apt - PLEX -> aurum we observe as being private individuals buying gold jewelery, with the opposite side being PLEX hoarders who are like precious metals speculators more or less trying to strangle the market and manipulate its price. They're not just manipulating the PLEX price, they're manipulating the real or perceived value of every service that PLEX facilitates elsewhere.
But none of this is news, infact I find it credulous at best to expect that we've hit the ceiling on PLEXed accounts yet. No way. Not even close.
Veteran and solo/small gang PVP advocate.
|
James Morgan
Pod Republic
3
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 09:19:03 -
[285] - Quote
It would be interesting if CCP released how many accounts are actively plexed (as in plex is applied to keep that account active).
|
Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
1611
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 09:44:55 -
[286] - Quote
Aerasia wrote:Diamond Zerg wrote:Almost at 1.3b now rofl Have you seen the change in gain over the last couple weeks though? Something's changed in the market. Maybe PLEX has gone from "Grr expensive!" to "Flip it to win it" in the minds of buyers? Whatever it is, the recent spike looks exceedingly dangerous for anybody trying to hold value in their PLEX. It's all speculation on where PLEX will end up. Likely CCP will step in soon (I am surprised they haven't already) like they have said they would if the change in price gets too rapid and sell some of the seized PLEX dampening the spike. We are up what 30% in a few weeks? That is a pretty high delta.
But long term, PLEX prices are probably still undervalued. Too many players can make a few billion ISK in an afternoon. Too many players are also sitting on trillions of ISK and are looking for a place to park it. Of course some casuals will be squeezed out, but based on the time effort/required, there is still a big upside. There are many factors though, especially supply, which are hard to prognosticate which makes any calls on the long-term stable price of PLEX just wild guesses. |
Horus V
The Destined
141
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 10:02:34 -
[287] - Quote
James Morgan wrote:It would be interesting if CCP released how many accounts are actively plexed (as in plex is applied to keep that account active).
I would definitelly like to see that data. I dont think CCP would ever show it though.
V
|
Boom Laison
University of Caille Gallente Federation
3
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 11:08:07 -
[288] - Quote
In a less, that one month there will be one account less. Cause my family hates this game and the moment they will see real money transfer onto CCP account I will get into serios troubles in real life. Spend whole month of my occasional play to make 1,5 b ISK is just stupid. I can play other PvP MMOG for free. |
Sheldon d'Albion
2
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 11:23:11 -
[289] - Quote
There is no reason to complain about the plex prices .
At the current moment in Jita , there is so few SO ( less than 50 ) that nothing could really prevent the plex from rising to 2B before the end of the month . CCP should have responded earlier , now if they act , they would need 50 times the amount of isk ( plex) they would have used a month earlier to calm this market . As the french says " Le roi est nu", meaning CCP is powerless againts it . |
Boom Laison
University of Caille Gallente Federation
5
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 11:35:14 -
[290] - Quote
Sheldon d'Albion wrote: As the french says " Le roi est nu", meaning CCP is powerless againts it .
CCP will be even more powerless in a month or so, cause even more players, who participated in sandbox via plexing their single account will abandon the game. So less buyers to support any CCP attempt to fix the situation. Two years ago CCP got 60 euro from anyone, who wanted to replace killed Maradeur without grinding, now - only 20 EUR. |
|
Brutus Utama
The European Project
58
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 11:41:51 -
[291] - Quote
The plex price has effected me quite heavily had to drop 3 accounts and move out of nullsec due to the high cost of both the plex and living out there means i am barely able to keep 1 account running atm, i dont have the time like alot of people to grind the isk i get a couple of hours a night online so far this week i have made maybe 300m isk which is barely 1/5 of what i need to plex never mind actually having isk to play the game....
people mentioned about making billions in an afternoon but i have no idea how thats possible...
If the plex doesnt start to lower in price soon i will possibly have to drop this account also.... now people will say pay with real money but as others have said i can play other games for free... |
Deck Cadelanne
CAStabouts
214
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 11:49:09 -
[292] - Quote
Brutus Utama wrote:The plex price has effected me quite heavily had to drop 3 accounts and move out of nullsec due to the high cost of both the plex and living out there means i am barely able to keep 1 account running atm, i dont have the time like alot of people to grind the isk i get a couple of hours a night online so far this week i have made maybe 300m isk which is barely 1/5 of what i need to plex never mind actually having isk to play the game....
people mentioned about making billions in an afternoon but i have no idea how thats possible...
If the plex doesnt start to lower in price soon i will possibly have to drop this account also.... now people will say pay with real money but as others have said i can play other games for free...
Nobody has never played EVE for free.
You either invest a lot of your time to buy a PLEX (which somebody else bought with cash) or you pay cash.
It seems almost all PLEX price whiners fail to comprehend that simple bit of reality.
If PLEX price is rising beyond what you are willing to invest in game time, maybe you need to consider just paying a sub until it goes back down.
"When the going gets weird, the weird turn professional."
- Hunter S. Thompson
|
Brutus Utama
The European Project
58
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 11:53:23 -
[293] - Quote
Deck Cadelanne wrote:Brutus Utama wrote:The plex price has effected me quite heavily had to drop 3 accounts and move out of nullsec due to the high cost of both the plex and living out there means i am barely able to keep 1 account running atm, i dont have the time like alot of people to grind the isk i get a couple of hours a night online so far this week i have made maybe 300m isk which is barely 1/5 of what i need to plex never mind actually having isk to play the game....
people mentioned about making billions in an afternoon but i have no idea how thats possible...
If the plex doesnt start to lower in price soon i will possibly have to drop this account also.... now people will say pay with real money but as others have said i can play other games for free... Nobody has never played EVE for free. You either invest a lot of your time to buy a PLEX (which somebody else bought with cash) or you pay cash. It seems almost all PLEX price whiners fail to comprehend that simple bit of reality. If PLEX price is rising beyond what you are willing to invest in game time, maybe you need to consider just paying a sub until it goes back down.
Obviously you cant read i stated that i have never payed for the game maybe other people have payed for the plex which i buy in game, now its becoming too difficult to make the isk for plex and the game isnt a game anymore if all you do is work to play the game... having nothing left over afterwards...
and about paying a sub why pay for a game when you can play free games? |
erg cz
Aligned Fleet CZ-SK
332
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 11:54:51 -
[294] - Quote
Deck Cadelanne wrote: If PLEX price is rising beyond what you are willing to invest in game time, maybe you need to consider just paying a sub until it goes back down.
Boom Laison wrote:my family hates this game and the moment they will see real money transfer onto CCP account I will get into serios troubles in real life. Spend whole month of my occasional play to make 1,5 b ISK is just stupid. I can play other PvP MMOG for free.
Seems, that paying a sub is not an option at least for some players...
Absolutely free trial extension. Just click the link and get your extra 2 weeks of Eve for free!
|
Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
1613
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 11:57:56 -
[295] - Quote
Brutus Utama wrote:and about paying a sub why pay for a game when you can play free games? Because you like to play it?
Why drink whiskey when perfectly good water comes free from the tap?
Only you can decide what your leisure activities are worth to you. However, if you aren't enjoying yourself, why are you still playing Eve at all? |
John Ratcliffe
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
288
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 12:01:30 -
[296] - Quote
I sub my 3 accounts with cash. If I need ISK I just drop more cash on PLEX, because I have won at 'Real Life'. The higher the PLEX price the better IMHO.
Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose
|
Caleb Seremshur
Gladiators of Rage RAZOR Alliance
650
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 12:01:49 -
[297] - Quote
Essentially the above. The time spent grinding for a plex could easily be spent at a real job earning several months worth of subs in a single week.
There is an assumption that because the option to PLEX via grinding isk eixsts that literally anyone and everyone should be able to do it - but that only shows immature perspectives of the market - I'm amazed that 2 years ago I used to buy plex to finance my hobby that I was selling for as little as 480m a piece.
Veteran and solo/small gang PVP advocate.
|
Gillia Winddancer
Aliastra Gallente Federation
440
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 12:18:32 -
[298] - Quote
Brutus Utama wrote:
and about paying a sub why pay for a game when you can play free games?
"and about paying your salary, why pay you when you can work for free?"
This is the line that I hope your (future) boss will tell you when you are employed. |
Boom Laison
University of Caille Gallente Federation
6
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 12:28:15 -
[299] - Quote
Gillia Winddancer wrote:
"and about paying your salary, why pay you when you can work for free?"
This is the line that I hope your (future) boss will tell you when you are employed.
-1 for this.
There is a huge difference between being abused by employee and playing a sandbox, where non-paying players create content for thiose, who pay. Instead of CCP creating thousands of randomly acting driffters they use humans, who are willing to create that conent for free. It is just there is much less such humans as long as PLEX getting unreachable for some reasonable amount of PvE activity. Less those PvE humans = less PvP targets for not-so-PvE humans. |
Gillia Winddancer
Aliastra Gallente Federation
440
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 12:34:08 -
[300] - Quote
Boom Laison wrote:Gillia Winddancer wrote:
"and about paying your salary, why pay you when you can work for free?"
This is the line that I hope your (future) boss will tell you when you are employed.
-1 for this. There is a huge difference between being abused by employee and playing a sandbox, where non-paying players create content for thiose, who pay. Instead of CCP creating thousands of randomly acting driffters they use humans, who are willing to create that conent for free. It is just there is much less such humans as long as PLEX getting unreachable for some reasonable amount of PvE activity. Less those PvE humans = less PvP targets for not-so-PvE humans.
Nothing is free. That is all. |
|
Deck Cadelanne
CAStabouts
214
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 12:45:49 -
[301] - Quote
Brutus Utama wrote:Obviously you cant read i stated that i have never payed for the game maybe other people have payed for the plex which i buy in game, now its becoming too difficult to make the isk for plex and the game isnt a game anymore if all you do is work to play the game... having nothing left over afterwards...
and about paying a sub why pay for a game when you can play free games?
Obviously you aren't big on logic or intelligence, so let me dumb this down for you:
You paid. What you spent is time, arguably the most valuable currency in human society.
You are now complaining because the time cost is more than you are willing to spend.
Get it?
"When the going gets weird, the weird turn professional."
- Hunter S. Thompson
|
Boom Laison
University of Caille Gallente Federation
8
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 12:59:32 -
[302] - Quote
Gillia Winddancer wrote:
Nothing is free. That is all.
Dark orbit, world of tanks, war thunder etc and etc... There ARE a free to play PvP games. The sooner CCP will realise it does has serios concurence on the market, the better the game will be. You want to fly alone in almost empty high sec? Spend hours looking for fight in low or null? Keep this "pay or GTFO" attitude. Less targets = less hunters, even paying players will start to leave. |
Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12379
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 13:01:18 -
[303] - Quote
Something that has gone largely unsaid here is that the people whom complain about plex prices tend to be the people who are very poor at making isk. They tend to 'grind' isk inefficiently, which was fine when plex is cheap, but sucks now that it's less cheap.
Rather than either scale back their operation (ie drop alt accounts), pay with cash (50 cents USD per day per account) or actually learn how to PVE in ways that earn isk quickly, they complain with the aim of getting CCP to intervene on their behalf.
In other words, the complainers are just lazy, and thus easily ignored. |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2209
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 13:01:24 -
[304] - Quote
Boom Laison wrote:Gillia Winddancer wrote:
Nothing is free. That is all.
Dark orbit, world of tanks, war thunder etc and etc... There ARE a free to play PvP games. The sooner CCP will realise it does has serios concurence on the market, the better the game will be. You want to fly alone in almost empty high sec? Spend hours looking for fight in low or null? Keep this "pay or GTFO" attitude. Less targets = less hunters, even paying players will start to leave.
Those game have been around for years and yet, we still have people paying for EVE. It's almost like being a different game means you might get different customer... |
James Morgan
Pod Republic
5
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 14:44:26 -
[305] - Quote
I used to have 2 accounts and started as annual subscription for both. After a couple of years I was making enough isk via casual mission running that I switched 1 account to be payed via plex. This was when plex was under 500 million. When it went above that I switched back to subscription.
Then real life intervened and I stopped playing for the past 2 and a half years. Just re-subbed and the first thing I did was checked the plex price in game. Wow it was at 1.2 billion, so for me its back to subscription, will re-sub the 2nd account one I get used to the all the new changes.
I am not from a developed country, but I can still afford to pay subscription. This may not be true for some guys. For them if they truly want play this game without subscription then at least do some research and find the most efficient way to make isk to get your plex. A level 4 mission runner can still make 50 to 100 million / hour within the confines of high security, which is still more than enough to get your plex to play the game without real money. Of course you spend extra time, but you will have to make that trade off.
I don't think that CCP should intervene but it would be really interesting if CCP released how many accounts are actively plexed. If the number is too low that can lead to quick collapse of current plex market. |
Caleb Seremshur
Gladiators of Rage RAZOR Alliance
651
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 14:59:12 -
[306] - Quote
That's exactly right - they would never release those numbers because if it turns out to be much less than expected the bubble might burst.
Veteran and solo/small gang PVP advocate.
|
Salvos Rhoska
1460
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 15:14:57 -
[307] - Quote
Buy all the PLEX for isk that you can, right now. Liquidate all assets/stockpiles you dont plan to use within the next 6-12 months, and put that towards PLEX purchase.
PLEX is currently appreciating at almost 100mil a week. Probably be 2 bil by Christmas.
If you are planning to buy PLEX with RML for conversion for isk, either put your money aside and buy the PLEX closer to next year, or stockpile whatever PLEX you do buy now and watch its value grow.
If you have PLEX already, DO NOT SELL. Hold onto it. You will almost certainly make more the longer you hold off.
PvE v PvP
|
Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12385
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 15:18:12 -
[308] - Quote
James Morgan wrote:I used to have 2 accounts and started as annual subscription for both. After a couple of years I was making enough isk via casual mission running that I switched 1 account to be payed via plex. This was when plex was under 500 million. When it went above that I switched back to subscription.
Then real life intervened and I stopped playing for the past 2 and a half years. Just re-subbed and the first thing I did was checked the plex price in game. Wow it was at 1.2 billion, so for me its back to subscription, will re-sub the 2nd account one I get used to the all the new changes.
I am not from a developed country, but I can still afford to pay subscription. This may not be true for some guys. For them if they truly want play this game without subscription then at least do some research and find the most efficient way to make isk to get your plex. A level 4 mission runner can still make 50 to 100 million / hour within the confines of high security, which is still more than enough to get your plex to play the game without real money. Of course you spend extra time, but you will have to make that trade off.
I don't think that CCP should intervene but it would be really interesting if CCP released how many accounts are actively plexed. If the number is too low that can lead to quick collapse of current plex market.
WTF is this? a Reasonably worded and polite post in General Discussion?
GTFO now, We don't take kindly to your types in here. |
Ruskarn Andedare
Lion Investments
736
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 15:24:25 -
[309] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Buy all the PLEX for isk that you can, right now. Liquidate all assets/stockpiles you dont plan to use within the next 6-12 months, and put that towards PLEX purchase.
PLEX is currently appreciating at almost 100mil a week. Probably be 2 bil by Christmas.
If you are planning to buy PLEX with RML for conversion for isk, either put your money aside and buy the PLEX closer to next year, or stockpile whatever PLEX you do buy now and watch its value grow.
If you have PLEX already, DO NOT SELL. Hold onto it. You will almost certainly make more the longer you hold off. Really? You really think that the bubble keeps on growing and never bursts? The PLEX market is just like every other - the price just needs to find its equilibrium point based on how many are on the market and how much people are prepared to pay for them. |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2215
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 15:26:13 -
[310] - Quote
Ruskarn Andedare wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:Buy all the PLEX for isk that you can, right now. Liquidate all assets/stockpiles you dont plan to use within the next 6-12 months, and put that towards PLEX purchase.
PLEX is currently appreciating at almost 100mil a week. Probably be 2 bil by Christmas.
If you are planning to buy PLEX with RML for conversion for isk, either put your money aside and buy the PLEX closer to next year, or stockpile whatever PLEX you do buy now and watch its value grow.
If you have PLEX already, DO NOT SELL. Hold onto it. You will almost certainly make more the longer you hold off. Really? You really think that the bubble keeps on growing and never bursts? The PLEX market is just like every other - the price just needs to find its equilibrium point based on how many are on the market and how much people are prepared to pay for them.
What if the equilibrium is at 4 bill? |
|
Salvos Rhoska
1460
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 15:41:35 -
[311] - Quote
Ruskarn and Frostys:
I edited to include some nominal facts and market change events which support the position.
As to the "bubble", I dont believe it will burst within the next 6months, atleast.
CCP action is largely the only one to worry about, and that is what you must speculate against, for however likely you foresee that as. As I outlined in my edit, most of CCPs devices for PLEX introduction and conversion have already been introduced and have passed. Two elements remain. 1) That CCP reduces PLEX price for RLM closer to sub, again. (Unlikely, perhaps a X-mas sale). 2) CCP starts dumping confiscated PLEX, which tbh will just be bought up by existing PLEX speculators, cheaply, hungrily, inorder to appreciate the value of their existing stock.
In terms of player related PLEX behavior, that PLEX price has increased, rather than decreased due to reduced activity (which it rationally should have) shows that there are strong hoarder elements operating in the market.
In terms of speculation against that, you must ask yourself do you believe people will strongly start subbing, or buying and introducing PLEX to the market. Personally, I find both unlikely and incidental. Subbing players will still sub, RLM PLEX buyers are shown to not react much, as their behavior is primarily governed by their disposable income, rather than the isk price of PLEX.
If hoarders start dumping, it will be a slow stalling of PLEX rise, as other speculators buy the PLEX to incresse their stock and its value. The plateau should be quite obvious and take atleast a few weeks before turning into a decline.
PvE v PvP
|
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
580
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 15:56:37 -
[312] - Quote
Boom Laison wrote:Gillia Winddancer wrote:
Nothing is free. That is all.
Dark orbit, world of tanks, war thunder etc and etc... There ARE a free to play PvP games. The sooner CCP will realise it does has serios concurence on the market, the better the game will be. You want to fly alone in almost empty high sec? Spend hours looking for fight in low or null? Keep this "pay or GTFO" attitude. Less targets = less hunters, even paying players will start to leave.
Those aren't free. It is same way making stuff from mined minerals is not free. Pay is other ways. Development must be paid for. They are not some open source.org. The makers want money through ads and/or players who spend money on stuff to make some coin. Their support and overhead is extremely lower than what it costs to operate and maintain a large system like eve. I guess CCP could put in a server pop cap?
To quote Lfod Shi
The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
|
Cancel Align NOW
Maas Industries
590
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 17:39:56 -
[313] - Quote
Feeding 2 plex a day to the market in Jita when prices are over 2bil will make me feel like Immortan Joe. Long may the market favour those who are already rich. |
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
580
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 18:24:32 -
[314] - Quote
Cancel Align NOW wrote:Feeding 2 plex a day to the market in Jita when prices are over 2bil will make me feel like Immortan Joe. Long may the market favour those who are already rich.
That is assuming it does. If eve makes improvements and expands the new player base, jist a matter of time til it caps or lowers. Guess depends on how many a person has and when bought.
To quote Lfod Shi
The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
|
Anne Dieu-le-veut
Natl Assn for the Advancement of Criminal People
241
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 19:10:40 -
[315] - Quote
I'm sure CCP is losing all kinds of sleep over freeloaders threatening to quit. It's like threatening to stop pirating cable if the cable company doesn't lower their prices.
WTF do you whiners honestly expect CCP to do? They're not going to put a hard cap on what people can charge. If they lowered the IRL price of PLEX, there is no guarantee people buying PLEX from CCP would sell them any cheaper. If PLEX are selling reasonably fast for 1.2B, there's no reason for sellers to lower the price. |
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
488
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 19:14:17 -
[316] - Quote
Anne Dieu-le-veut wrote:I'm sure CCP is losing all kinds of sleep over freeloaders threatening to quit. It's like threatening to stop pirating cable if the cable company doesn't lower their prices.
WTF do you whiners honestly expect CCP to do? They're not going to put a hard cap on what people can charge. If they lowered the IRL price of PLEX, there is no guarantee people buying PLEX from CCP would sell them any cheaper. If PLEX are selling reasonably fast for 1.2B, there's no reason for sellers to lower the price. You seem to forget that us freeloaders are part of the content they provide to their paying customers.
but what would I know, I'm just a salvager
|
motie one
Secret Passage
18
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 19:19:14 -
[317] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Buy all the PLEX for isk that you can. RIGHT NOW. Liquidate all assets/stockpiles you dont plan to use within the next 6-12 months, and put that towards PLEX purchase.
PLEX is currently appreciating at almost 100mil a week. Probably be 2 bil by Christmas.
If you are planning to buy PLEX with RML for conversion for isk, either put your money aside and buy the PLEX closer to next year, or stockpile whatever PLEX you do buy now and watch its value grow.
If you have PLEX already, DO NOT SELL. Hold onto it. You will almost certainly make more the longer you hold off.
Supporting reasons: PLEX sale was already had recently. There wont be another one for awhile. Market has been drained of supply for EVE-Vegas. Player activity drop has not resulted in price decrease, quite the opposite. Player activity drop has somewhat stabilised, and again, with no decrease in price, quite the opposite. PLEX for Good Charity is unlikely due to extremely complex and controversial international political climate.
Counterindicators: CCP reduces PLEX price to nearer sub. Unlikely till atleast 1st quarter 2016, and would be well telegraphed in advance. Hoarders start dumping, extremely unlikely. It is counter to their interest, as it depreciates their stockpiles. Furthermore it would take several weeks for dumping to have a noticeable decrees in PLEX appreciation, as other hoarders continue to buy them off the market, cheap, to grow their own stockpile and retain/apprecoate its value.
Liquidate everything you dont need, and buy all the PLEX you can. Immediately.
Well of course the structural requirements to support an astrometric plex rise are clearly obvious and unquestionable.
They aren't? Nothing has changed to force a 30% price rise in a few days? Could it possibly be someone is talking a bubble up?
Plex and multiple pilot certificates, are a structural part of the Eve economy, one would need to be delusional to think CCP would allow themselves to come secondary to the profits of the speculators. |
Anne Dieu-le-veut
Natl Assn for the Advancement of Criminal People
242
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 19:22:37 -
[318] - Quote
Eli Apol wrote:Anne Dieu-le-veut wrote:I'm sure CCP is losing all kinds of sleep over freeloaders threatening to quit. It's like threatening to stop pirating cable if the cable company doesn't lower their prices.
WTF do you whiners honestly expect CCP to do? They're not going to put a hard cap on what people can charge. If they lowered the IRL price of PLEX, there is no guarantee people buying PLEX from CCP would sell them any cheaper. If PLEX are selling reasonably fast for 1.2B, there's no reason for sellers to lower the price. You seem to forget that us freeloaders are part of the content they provide to their paying customers.
You make it sound like you're doing CCP a favor lol. You didn't answer the question...what do you want them to do about it? |
Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
578
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 20:11:33 -
[319] - Quote
Anne Dieu-le-veut wrote:I'm sure CCP is losing all kinds of sleep over freeloaders threatening to quit. It's like threatening to stop pirating cable if the cable company doesn't lower their prices.
WTF do you whiners honestly expect CCP to do? They're not going to put a hard cap on what people can charge. If they lowered the IRL price of PLEX, there is no guarantee people buying PLEX from CCP would sell them any cheaper. If PLEX are selling reasonably fast for 1.2B, there's no reason for sellers to lower the price.
Ignorant
Even if you Plex your account you are still paying CCP for your game time. All Plex came from CCP, therefore all Plex is a monthy sub paid to them whether some noob paid it for you or you go on a Monthly plan.
In fact, CCP gets MORE cash from Plexers than they do monthly subs.
So stop being so ignorant. No one is "Pirating" plex from CCP.
Best description of Eve Online and why the community is the way it is
|
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
17048
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 20:14:45 -
[320] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
In fact, CCP gets MORE cash from Plexers than they do monthly subs.
The last figures I saw were that CCP get somewhere between 25-33% of their income from PLEX. Do you have a more recent source?
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
|
|
Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
578
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 20:16:44 -
[321] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Market McSelling Alt wrote:
In fact, CCP gets MORE cash from Plexers than they do monthly subs.
The last figures I saw were that CCP get somewhere between 25-33% of their income from PLEX. Do you have a more recent source?
No, I mean Plex is at least $15 a piece and in some currencies more.
Monthly subs can get as low as $11 with multi month discounts and even lower with buddy and power of 2.
I didn't mean macro sense, sorry.
Best description of Eve Online and why the community is the way it is
|
Salvos Rhoska
1460
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 20:51:16 -
[322] - Quote
motie one wrote:Well of course the structural requirements to support an astrometric plex rise are clearly obvious and unquestionable.
They aren't? Nothing has changed to force a 30% price rise in a few days? Could it possibly be someone is talking a bubble up?
Plex and multiple pilot certificates, are a structural part of the Eve economy, one would need to be delusional to think CCP would allow themselves to come secondary to the profits of the speculators.
Speculator profits are irrelevant to CCP profits. All of the PLEX that speculators deal in, has already been paid for in RLM to CCP. CCP deals in real money. Speculators deal in funny money. And since RMT is forbidden, speculator action with funny money doesnt directly affect CCPs real money revenues.
As to the further relationship between PLEX speculators ingame and CCP profits, higher PLEX price ingame actually has two benefits to CCP: -It helps incentivize players who currently buy PLEX for RLM, to continue to do so. And probably some increase in that figure is rational (the extent is unclear). - The higher PLEX ingame is, the more incentive there is for some players to swap to subbing (again, extent is unclear).
However.
There is one indirect effect of PLEX speculators that potentially can affect CCP. That is the reduction in player/account activity figures that increased PLEX prices ingame invariably lead to.
Though the EVE business ledger might look good and "in black" at the bottomline when presented in terms of revenue, its soured quite a bit when followed up by "in red" account drops as lost market share and repeat client interest.
Im concerned PLEX hoarding may be reaching levels of critical mass that is forcing more activity out of the game, than is "good" for the game.
Its Business 101 that its very hard to get customers to return once they have left (even, if as in this case, they did not directly pay CCP at all, so financially they are rather worthless, but they still provide content and value to the game itself, as an equitable reciprocation). Its pragmatically cheaper and easier to take action to retain, rather than re-aquire lost clients. Furthermore lost clients have a bad habit of spreading negative reviews and feedback to other potential new clients.
As the saying goes, keep your friends close, and your enemies closer. But in business, keep your clients "clenched firmly between your buttcheeks"-kind of close, or your competition will take them from you.
Standard EVE morality states "**** em, they can go play WoT instead, cheap useless bastards that they are", and this has some credit to it. But aside from that moral and subjective prerogative, its very hard to argue, from an objective perspective, that less player/accounts is a "good" thing.
My fear is that some entities in EVE, due to a plethora of factors, have become so exceedingly space rich (and bored, perhaps) that significant PLEX manipulation had become a very real possibility. PLEX lends itself to this uniquely. No other commodity has its inherent qualities. To fail into proverbs again: Sell a man a fish and he eats for a day. Sell him a fishing rod, and he eats for a lifetime. In EVE, sell a man a ship and he can own it. Sell him a PLEX, and he can actually fly it for a month.
Again, it could be argued that this PLEX manipulation would be fitting of EVE morality, and its player economy. And that too, has credit to it.
But its coming at a significant cost, objectively, as players/accounts drop.
PvE v PvP
|
Aaron
Eternal Frontier
309
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 20:53:35 -
[323] - Quote
Lots of short sighted replies here.
- If plex is reduced to -ú9.99 GBP the isk cost of plex will drop and plex users will reactivate their 2nd, 3rd and 4th accounts. Also the people who don't know how to earn 1.3 bills for their single account will be secure and continue playing.
- CCP are making people leave the game due to the RL plex cost being almost double, we have seen posts from plex users in this very thread which CCP can no longer afford to ignore.
- If the isk price of plex continues to rise then the sellers will alienate their customer base and lose them which will mean plex isk value will fall due to limited sales.
Knock on effects of an Eve recession
- Plex users will become even more risk averse, they simply can't afford to replace their grinding ship if they lose it, so we will see lots of plex users moving out of dangerous space.
- If plex users become more risk averse then ship and module sales will drop due to losses being limited.
- The price of everything will go up due to limited resources and sales. buyers won't have the money to buy the product and sellers won't be able to maintain their business.
I feel sad that Eve is going down hill, please CCP address the RL plex cost, if it is reduced I am very sure it will prop up the economy, everything will be a reasonable price numbers will rise and we will have lots of people to enjoy Eve with.
I like Eve and I want it to stay.
Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
|
Aaron
Eternal Frontier
309
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 21:13:58 -
[324] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:motie one wrote:Well of course the structural requirements to support an astrometric plex rise are clearly obvious and unquestionable.
They aren't? Nothing has changed to force a 30% price rise in a few days? Could it possibly be someone is talking a bubble up?
Plex and multiple pilot certificates, are a structural part of the Eve economy, one would need to be delusional to think CCP would allow themselves to come secondary to the profits of the speculators.
Its Business 101 that its very hard to get customers to return once they have left (even, if as in this case, they did not directly pay CCP at all, so financially they are rather worthless, but they still provide content and value to the game itself, as an equitable reciprocation). Its pragmatically cheaper and easier to take action to retain, rather than re-aquire lost clients. Furthermore lost clients have a bad habit of spreading negative reviews and feedback to other potential new clients.
Incorrect, All that happens with plex is that another dude has paid someone else's sub for the reward of in game currency. If all plex users leave then CCP lose the -ú16.99 times however many plex users left.. So, financially they are worth lots. Never turn your nose up at real cash just because it was generated by someone who has difficulty affording the sub.
Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26110
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 21:17:37 -
[325] - Quote
Aaron wrote:Lots of short sighted replies here.
- If plex is reduced to -ú9.99 GBP the isk cost of plex will drop and plex users will reactivate their 2nd, 3rd and 4th accounts. Pure speculation. There's nothing to suggest that anything of the kind will happen. Rather, what will happen is that CCP loses all its long-term, easily-planned subscription money for something that can dry up in an instant.
Quote:CCP are making people leave the game due to the RL plex cost being almost double Pure speculation. There's nothing to suggest that the two are even related.
Quote:If the isk price of plex continues to rise then the sellers will alienate their customer base and lose them which will mean plex isk value will fall due to limited sales. This doesn't even make any sense. The sellers are not the only part in the mechanisms that determine PLEX price. They certainly aren't GÇ£alienatingGÇ¥ anyone, and as you just point out, it's a self-adjusting system anyway.
Quote:please CCP address the RL plex cost Why would they want to reduce their income, especially when there's nothing to suggest that it will have any positive effects?
Quote:My petition thread was quickly trolled and locked. Why can't we be sensible about a serious issue? Because your thread was completely nonsensical. Also, because you were categorically against having a serious discussion about the issue you assumed existed, and senselessly trolled people who tried to have one.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
Vic Jefferson
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
610
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 21:20:03 -
[326] - Quote
Aaron wrote:Plex users will become even more risk averse, they simply can't afford to replace their grinding ship if they lose it, so we will see lots of plex users moving out of dangerous space.
Eh, so many assumptions are taken for granted here.
A)Could easily have the opposite effect - If level 4s don't pay the bills well enough, maybe people will leave for greener pastures. It should be extremely difficult to PLEX an account while living in HS, as most HS wealth generation does nothing to drive player content. Part of the problem driving PLEX going up is just how risk-free and easy ISK is to make in High Sec. It is not possible to be much more risk averse than the people who already earn their bread and butter income in HS.
B)Another thing contributing at least some of the increase in PLEX price is the migration of people to more dangerous places. It takes a real enthusiast (some would say masochist) to absolutely min/max L4 blitzing or incursions, but when power blocs are looking for bodies....i mean pilots, to run ISK spewing anomalies to maintain sov index, the value of ISK decreases. I would be curious to see how much more ISK is injected into the game on a daily basis since FozzieSov.
Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X
|
Salvos Rhoska
1460
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 21:41:15 -
[327] - Quote
Aaron wrote:Incorrect, All that happens with plex is that another dude has paid someone else's sub for the reward of in game currency. If all plex users leave then CCP lose the -ú16.99 times however many plex users left.. So, financially they are worth lots. Never turn your nose up at real cash just because it was generated by someone who has difficulty affording the sub.
I said "rather worthless", not "entirely worthless". Im not thumbing my nose at PLEX dependant players. I am one myself.
Your extreme of ALL PLEX consumers leaving is an abstraction that is irrational and leads to false conclusions, as would be the abstractions that "if" nobody buys PLEX, sub, nor plays the game altogether.
The point I was making in the section you quoted, was that all PLEX has been paid for to CCP with RLM. But. There is a huge hoarded stockpile of these ingame that is being withheld from the market because the more PLEX they buy up off of it, the more the value of their stockpile increases. These PLEX are currently appreciating in value, but denying the game of player content.
This moots your argument, because no matter how many players are importing PLEX into the game, if the majority of those are bought up by stockpilers, those PLEXs are NOT PAYING FOR ANYONE ELSES SUB. They are merely sitting in a station, getting more and more expensive the more of them there are.
The primary value in PLEX dependant accounts/players, is the content and activity they enrich the game with. Yes, their sub is paid for by another, and they provide funny money for it, but this is also further reciprocated in equity to the game as a virtual player interactive universe by their activity in it, rather than their absence. 0 is 0, is nothing. 1 is something.
The stockpiled PLEX is not subbing anybody. Do you understand what I am saying?
Its legit. Its fine. Well done, whoever has done so. Makes sense. Perfect EVE victory. Im not saying CCP should interfere, nor whining. Im just trying to figure out why the situation is as it is. And this is the conclusion to which Ive come as detailed in this and other posts.
PvE v PvP
|
Anize Oramara
The Arch Dashing Dashers
394
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 21:41:41 -
[328] - Quote
Vic Jefferson wrote:Aaron wrote:Plex users will become even more risk averse, they simply can't afford to replace their grinding ship if they lose it, so we will see lots of plex users moving out of dangerous space. Eh, so many assumptions are taken for granted here. A)Could easily have the opposite effect - If level 4s don't pay the bills well enough, maybe people will leave for greener pastures. It should be extremely difficult to PLEX an account while living in HS, as most HS wealth generation does nothing to drive player content. Part of the problem driving PLEX going up is just how risk-free and easy ISK is to make in High Sec. It is not possible to be much more risk averse than the people who already earn their bread and butter income in HS. B)Another thing contributing at least some of the increase in PLEX price is the migration of people to more dangerous places. It takes a real enthusiast (some would say masochist) to absolutely min/max L4 blitzing or incursions, but when power blocs are looking for bodies....i mean pilots, to run ISK spewing anomalies to maintain sov index, the value of ISK decreases. I would be curious to see how much more ISK is injected into the game on a daily basis since FozzieSov. Blitzing lv4 missions (depending on the LP items bought) is nearly an isk sink. Anom grinding is nearly 100% isk faucet. |
Aaron
Eternal Frontier
310
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 21:47:02 -
[329] - Quote
Tippia,
You've obviously not read the posts from plex users and understood what they have to go through to plex their accounts. You really view plex users as irrelevant don't you? This is an Eve recession it is important to understand all aspects of this so that we can determine what can be done about it.
Go ahead and ignore the plex users man, this path leads to nowhere.
Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
|
Anne Dieu-le-veut
Natl Assn for the Advancement of Criminal People
243
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 21:55:49 -
[330] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote:Anne Dieu-le-veut wrote:I'm sure CCP is losing all kinds of sleep over freeloaders threatening to quit. It's like threatening to stop pirating cable if the cable company doesn't lower their prices.
WTF do you whiners honestly expect CCP to do? They're not going to put a hard cap on what people can charge. If they lowered the IRL price of PLEX, there is no guarantee people buying PLEX from CCP would sell them any cheaper. If PLEX are selling reasonably fast for 1.2B, there's no reason for sellers to lower the price. Ignorant Even if you Plex your account you are still paying CCP for your game time. All Plex came from CCP, therefore all Plex is a monthy sub paid to them whether some noob paid it for you or you go on a Monthly plan. In fact, CCP gets MORE cash from Plexers than they do monthly subs. So stop being so ignorant. No one is "Pirating" plex from CCP.
LOL talk about ignorant. Your time playing <> money for CCP. You are paying the person you bought the PLEX from for your playing time. People subbing with PLEX are not contributing to CCP's bottom line. |
|
Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
579
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 22:00:33 -
[331] - Quote
Anne Dieu-le-veut wrote:Market McSelling Alt wrote:Anne Dieu-le-veut wrote:I'm sure CCP is losing all kinds of sleep over freeloaders threatening to quit. It's like threatening to stop pirating cable if the cable company doesn't lower their prices.
WTF do you whiners honestly expect CCP to do? They're not going to put a hard cap on what people can charge. If they lowered the IRL price of PLEX, there is no guarantee people buying PLEX from CCP would sell them any cheaper. If PLEX are selling reasonably fast for 1.2B, there's no reason for sellers to lower the price. Ignorant Even if you Plex your account you are still paying CCP for your game time. All Plex came from CCP, therefore all Plex is a monthy sub paid to them whether some noob paid it for you or you go on a Monthly plan. In fact, CCP gets MORE cash from Plexers than they do monthly subs. So stop being so ignorant. No one is "Pirating" plex from CCP. LOL talk about ignorant. Your time playing <> money for CCP. You are paying the person you bought the PLEX from for your playing time. People subbing with PLEX bought from Jita are not contributing to CCP's bottom line.
THE PLEX CAME FROM SOMEWHERE
You have to buy Plex from CCP. Don't be stupid
What you are saying is ignorant. It would be akin to saying you don't support Kraft foods when you buy a box of Kraft Mac & Cheese from your local grocery because you paid that grocery directly. Ignorant.
Best description of Eve Online and why the community is the way it is
|
Aaron
Eternal Frontier
310
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 22:04:55 -
[332] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Aaron wrote:Incorrect, All that happens with plex is that another dude has paid someone else's sub for the reward of in game currency. If all plex users leave then CCP lose the -ú16.99 times however many plex users left.. So, financially they are worth lots. Never turn your nose up at real cash just because it was generated by someone who has difficulty affording the sub.
I said "rather worthless", not "entirely worthless". Im not thumbing my nose at PLEX dependant players. I am one myself. Your extreme of ALL PLEX consumers leaving is an abstraction that is irrational and leads to false conclusions, as would be the abstractions that "if" nobody buys PLEX, sub, nor plays the game altogether. The point I was making in the section you quoted, was that all PLEX has been paid for to CCP with RLM. But. There is a huge hoarded stockpile of these ingame that is being withheld from the market because the more PLEX they buy up off of it, the more the value of their stockpile increases. These PLEX are currently appreciating in value, but denying the game of player content. This moots your argument, because no matter how many players are importing PLEX into the game, if the majority of those are bought up by stockpilers, those PLEXs are NOT PAYING FOR ANYONE ELSES SUB. They are merely sitting in a station, getting more and more expensive the more of them there are.The primary value in PLEX dependant accounts/players, is the content and activity they enrich the game with. Yes, their sub is paid for by another, and they provide funny money for it, but this is also further reciprocated in equity to the game as a virtual player interactive universe by their activity in it, rather than their absence. 0 is 0, is nothing. 1 is something. The stockpiled PLEX is not subbing anybody. Do you understand what I am saying? Its legit. Its fine. Well done, whoever has done so. Makes sense. Perfect EVE victory. Im not saying CCP should interfere, nor whining. Im just trying to figure out why the situation is as it is. And this is the conclusion to which Ive come as detailed in this and other posts.
Ok, so people use plex as an investment buying low then selling high. I'm sure you're aware this type of investment has a time limit and I don't think people will hold on to plex at this point. At some point the stockpile will be sold and hen plex accounts.
How are you faring with affording plex? will you find 1.3b and rising hard to achieve every month? What will you do if you can't achieve it or find it too time consuming?
If plex users are finding it hard then this must be listened to.
Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
|
Aaron
Eternal Frontier
312
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 22:07:30 -
[333] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote:Anne Dieu-le-veut wrote:Market McSelling Alt wrote:Anne Dieu-le-veut wrote:I'm sure CCP is losing all kinds of sleep over freeloaders threatening to quit. It's like threatening to stop pirating cable if the cable company doesn't lower their prices.
WTF do you whiners honestly expect CCP to do? They're not going to put a hard cap on what people can charge. If they lowered the IRL price of PLEX, there is no guarantee people buying PLEX from CCP would sell them any cheaper. If PLEX are selling reasonably fast for 1.2B, there's no reason for sellers to lower the price. Ignorant Even if you Plex your account you are still paying CCP for your game time. All Plex came from CCP, therefore all Plex is a monthy sub paid to them whether some noob paid it for you or you go on a Monthly plan. In fact, CCP gets MORE cash from Plexers than they do monthly subs. So stop being so ignorant. No one is "Pirating" plex from CCP. LOL talk about ignorant. Your time playing <> money for CCP. You are paying the person you bought the PLEX from for your playing time. People subbing with PLEX bought from Jita are not contributing to CCP's bottom line. THE PLEX CAME FROM SOMEWHERE You have to buy Plex from CCP. Don't be stupid What you are saying is ignorant. It would be akin to saying you don't support Kraft foods when you buy a box of Kraft Mac & Cheese from your local grocery because you paid that grocery directly. Ignorant.
Here we go, someone is paying attention. This is refreshing.
Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
|
La Rynx
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
386
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 22:07:51 -
[334] - Quote
Aaron wrote: Go ahead and ignore the plex users man, this path leads to nowhere.
Tsk tsk man what would a plex user like you do without plex buyers (from CCP) like me?
Those plex users are guests of plex buyers, not much more.
And since the value of isk is sinking, you have to grind harder to get those plex. Remember you play with money others laid out for you.
Atomic Virulent : "You can't spell DOUCHE. without CODE."
|
Algarion Getz
Aideron Corp
62
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 22:07:54 -
[335] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote:Malcanis wrote:Market McSelling Alt wrote:
In fact, CCP gets MORE cash from Plexers than they do monthly subs.
The last figures I saw were that CCP get somewhere between 25-33% of their income from PLEX. Do you have a more recent source? No, I mean Plex is at least $15 a piece and in some currencies more. Monthly subs can get as low as $11 with multi month discounts and even lower with buddy and power of 2. I didn't mean macro sense, sorry. $15 for a PLEX ... thats super cheap. The RL price differences for PLEX are huge. PLEX costs Gé¼19,95 ($22,77) here (Austria) and i think its the same (not sure though!) for all European countries. So if you move just 100km, into Hungary where people earn a lot less and 1Gé¼ is worth almost twice as much ... around Gé¼40 ($46) for a PLEX. |
Aaron
Eternal Frontier
312
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 22:11:32 -
[336] - Quote
La Rynx wrote:Aaron wrote: Go ahead and ignore the plex users man, this path leads to nowhere.
Tsk tsk man what would a plex user like you do without plex buyers (from CCP) like me? Those plex users are guests of plex buyers, not much more. And since the value of isk is sinking, you have to grind harder to get those plex. Remember you play with money others laid out for you.
I'm not a plex user. I can see the path were headed on and I can see we are going to alienate the plex user. I am passionate about this because I know this is/will have an effect on numbers in the game.
Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
|
La Rynx
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
386
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 22:14:07 -
[337] - Quote
Aaron wrote:If plex users are finding it hard then this must be listened to. Ever considered that i have to work to earn the money that i pay for plex?
Atomic Virulent : "You can't spell DOUCHE. without CODE."
|
Anne Dieu-le-veut
Natl Assn for the Advancement of Criminal People
243
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 22:18:55 -
[338] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote: THE PLEX CAME FROM SOMEWHERE
You have to buy Plex from CCP. Don't be stupid
What you are saying is ignorant. It would be akin to saying you don't support Kraft foods when you buy a box of Kraft Mac & Cheese from your local grocery because you paid that grocery directly. Ignorant.
Kraft got their money whether the store sells that mac and cheese or not. You are spending real money buying mac & cheese from the store. Your comparison would be like me giving bottle caps or some other barter to the store for the mac and cheese.
Suppose CCP lowered the price of PLEX to equal the exact cost of a sub...who says people paying cash for PLEX would either buy more or sell it for less? If people are willing to pay 1.2B for one, that's what it's going to sell for. |
Aaron
Eternal Frontier
315
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 22:23:12 -
[339] - Quote
La Rynx wrote:Aaron wrote:If plex users are finding it hard then this must be listened to. Ever considered that i have to work to earn the money that i pay for plex? I find it somehow strange if one says he likes EvE but he will stop if he can not play for free.
Yes, the RL cost should be lowered to benefit you which I think will guarantee you more long term sales due to there being more people in game.
Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
|
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
40201
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 22:24:59 -
[340] - Quote
Aaron wrote:Here we go, someone is paying attention. This is refreshing.
Lot's of people have been paying attention to what you've been say Aaron. Just a lot disagree with the causation that you are pushing.
Provide some real information and not just "this is it" and I'm sure people will reconsider what you are saying. At the moment, in the absence of any solid logic from your argument, the logic is worked through by each person on their own and it seems many conclusions just don't match yours.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
|
|
Anne Dieu-le-veut
Natl Assn for the Advancement of Criminal People
243
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 22:27:48 -
[341] - Quote
Aaron wrote:Edit: My petition thread was quickly trolled and locked. Why can't we be sensible about a serious issue? I think I got 2 signatures, i know this does not represent the real opinions of the players. The moderators and the people who responded didn't seem to get that it was a petition thread. All that was required was a signature or no signature, the effect of this is that CCP will not know how many people agree with reducing RL cost of plex.
Good luck anyway CCP you have a great game here and I wish you the best in dealing with this recession. o7
Unless they changed it recently, petition threads are a no-no. It got locked because people flagged for violating the rules.
Aaron wrote:La Rynx wrote:Aaron wrote:If plex users are finding it hard then this must be listened to. Ever considered that i have to work to earn the money that i pay for plex? I find it somehow strange if one says he likes EvE but he will stop if he can not play for free. Yes, the RL cost should be lowered to benefit you which I think will guarantee you more long term sales due to there being more people in game.
Suppose they lower the cost to be the same as a sub...do you think PLEX prices will magically drop? |
Aaron
Eternal Frontier
315
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 22:31:01 -
[342] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Aaron wrote:Here we go, someone is paying attention. This is refreshing.
Lot's of people have been paying attention to what you've been say Aaron. Just a lot disagree with the causation that you are pushing.
I meant paying attention to whats happening with ccp/Eve, Wow, you still see what plex users have said as irrelevant. You can't even see that its not really me pushing, My views are based on other peoples (plex users) gripes.
Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
|
La Rynx
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
389
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 22:33:02 -
[343] - Quote
Aaron wrote:La Rynx wrote:Aaron wrote:If plex users are finding it hard then this must be listened to. Ever considered that i have to work to earn the money that i pay for plex? I find it somehow strange if one says he likes EvE but he will stop if he can not play for free. Yes, the RL cost should be lowered to benefit you which I think will guarantee you more long term sales due to there being more people in game.
I did not say anything you could agree with "yes". Same as "i like EvE but if i can not play it for free i wan't play" is "i like EvE but if i can not play it for 99Cent i wan't play"
Atomic Virulent : "You can't spell DOUCHE. without CODE."
|
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
40201
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 22:37:02 -
[344] - Quote
Aaron wrote:I meant paying attention to whats happening with ccp/Eve, Wow, you still see what plex users have said as irrelevant. You can't even see that its not really me pushing, My views are based on other peoples (plex users) gripes.
No, I don't see what PLEX users say is irrelevant. Everyone's opinion, no matter who's it is or what point it is, is as valid as anyone else's.
I just see it as a personal experience and not necessarily representative of the broader communities view on the whole, simply because there hasn't been enough consistency in view that makes a representative sample.
Show me the single consistent argument stated over and over and over, by a representative sample of the playerbase. So far, you haven't shown that in any way at all.
The only thing has been "well I've listened and therefore it is true". I've also listened and don't see the same thing you see. There is no consistency in the argument and a lot of is it whining from a few, certainly not enough numbers that has any statistical significance.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
|
Aaron
Eternal Frontier
315
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 22:38:06 -
[345] - Quote
Anne Dieu-le-veut wrote:Aaron wrote:Edit: My petition thread was quickly trolled and locked. Why can't we be sensible about a serious issue? I think I got 2 signatures, i know this does not represent the real opinions of the players. The moderators and the people who responded didn't seem to get that it was a petition thread. All that was required was a signature or no signature, the effect of this is that CCP will not know how many people agree with reducing RL cost of plex.
Good luck anyway CCP you have a great game here and I wish you the best in dealing with this recession. o7 Unless they changed it recently, petition threads are a no-no. It got locked because people flagged for violating the rules. Aaron wrote:La Rynx wrote:Aaron wrote:If plex users are finding it hard then this must be listened to. Ever considered that i have to work to earn the money that i pay for plex? I find it somehow strange if one says he likes EvE but he will stop if he can not play for free. Yes, the RL cost should be lowered to benefit you which I think will guarantee you more long term sales due to there being more people in game. Suppose they lower the cost to be the same as a sub...do you think PLEX prices will magically drop?
no plex price won't magically drop, the people who brought plex off the market for investment will want to get their isk back or at least make some profit, these guys will keep the price high for as long as possible.
Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
|
Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
587
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 22:40:36 -
[346] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Aaron wrote:I meant paying attention to whats happening with ccp/Eve, Wow, you still see what plex users have said as irrelevant. You can't even see that its not really me pushing, My views are based on other peoples (plex users) gripes.
No, I don't see what PLEX users say is irrelevant. I just see it as a personal experience and not necessarily representative of the broader communities view on the whole, simply because there hasn't been enough consistency in view that makes a representative sample. Show me the single consistent argument stated over and over and over, by a representative sample of the playerbase. So far, you haven't shown that in any way at all. The only thing has been "well I've listened and therefore it is true". I've also listened and don't see the same thing you see. There is no consistency in the argument and a lot of is it whining from a few, certainly not enough numbers that has any statistical significance.
It is a system pretty similar to that of the Labor Unions and Auto-Companies. Labor always wants more money and benefits, Car Companies want to pay less to make more profit on cars.
Car Companies need labor to make the cars so they are a necessary evil. Labor needs the Car Company to be able to sell cars so they can get work and wages. It is a system of balance.
I guess some are calling for the balance to be looked into. But I don't know where the correct equilibrium should be.
Best description of Eve Online and why the community is the way it is
|
Anne Dieu-le-veut
Natl Assn for the Advancement of Criminal People
243
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 22:42:49 -
[347] - Quote
Econ 101: Something is worth whatever someone else is willing to pay for it. There are enough people willing to pay 1.2B ISK for a PLEX at this time that the price will keep going up. The only way PLEX will go down is if people stop buying. Lowering the IRL price of PLEX won't change that. |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
40201
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 22:44:00 -
[348] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote:I guess some are calling for the balance to be looked into. But I don't know where the correct equilibrium should be. This exactly for me too and I totally agree with your post.
That's what Aaron hasn't understood from those that haven't agreed with the view he has pushed the last couple of days.
I don't personally have anything against his view, I just don't see the logic that supports it currently. Happy to support his view if the logic is provided as well, but so far it just isn't there.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
|
La Rynx
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
389
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 22:45:01 -
[349] - Quote
Aaron wrote: no plex price won't magically drop, the people who brought plex off the market for investment will want to get their isk back or at least make some profit, these guys will keep the price high for as long as possible.
No surprise there. You can invest in PLEX since the price rises for years now. From 300mil to 1.2Bil now.
If the EvE population drops to far, the market for PLEX will implode. Still, if my income continues to rise, i will invest in PLEX too.
Atomic Virulent : "You can't spell DOUCHE. without CODE."
|
Aaron
Eternal Frontier
315
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 23:36:54 -
[350] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Market McSelling Alt wrote:I guess some are calling for the balance to be looked into. But I don't know where the correct equilibrium should be. This exactly for me too and I totally agree with your post. That's what Aaron hasn't understood from those that haven't agreed with the view he has pushed the last couple of days. I don't personally have anything against his view, I just don't see the logic that supports it currently. Happy to support his view if the logic is provided as well, but so far it just isn't there.
I take the time to understand an listen, some of the plex users are posting on multiple forums that they find it hard to plex their accounts due to the cost being so high. I have no reason to disbelieve them, I'm unsure as to why you seem to think I have nothing to support my claims.
You seem to think me taking onboard what plex users have said is illogical.
Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
|
|
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1515
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 23:37:00 -
[351] - Quote
My simplistic observation is this:
- people do not generally decide how many PLEX to get based on how much real cash they want to spend - people do not generally decide how many PLEX to get based on how much ISK they get per PLEX
Many (most?) people base their purchases on how much ISK they need.
This means: - PLEX supply will be resistant to ISK/PLEX price changes and may even drop as ISK/PLEX rises - PLEX supply will be resistant to real money price changes and supply will only increase slightly as PLEX price drops |
Anne Dieu-le-veut
Natl Assn for the Advancement of Criminal People
243
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 23:48:10 -
[352] - Quote
Aaron wrote: I take the time to understand an listen, some of the plex users are posting on multiple forums that they find it hard to plex their accounts due to the cost being so high. I have no reason to disbelieve them, I'm unsure as to why you seem to think I have nothing to support my claims.
You seem to think me taking onboard what plex users have said is illogical.
It's illogical to expect people selling PLEX are going to lower the price they are asking when there are plenty of people willing to pay the current price. |
Aaron
Eternal Frontier
315
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 23:51:13 -
[353] - Quote
La Rynx wrote:Aaron wrote: no plex price won't magically drop, the people who brought plex off the market for investment will want to get their isk back or at least make some profit, these guys will keep the price high for as long as possible.
No surprise there. You can invest in PLEX since the price rises for years now. From 300mil to 1.2Bil now. If the EvE population drops to far, the market for PLEX will implode. Still, if my income continues to rise, i will invest in PLEX too.
Would be interesting to hear from plex traders, perhaps this might give us an insight into whats going on. I'm not entirely sure but I think that most of the stockpiles will be on the market now because the plex market maybe about to crash and the traders want to cash out.
I'm sure the good traders know that this is a temporary high and either the customer base will vanish or the RL cost of plex will be reduced affecting the isk price. I think there is 2 or 3 months of good trading left until plex users get tired and leave. We do forget Eve is supposed to be fun and one doesn't want to clock off RL work and then come home to start his second job Eve online. Have a look at the psychological aspect of this.
Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
|
Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
587
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 23:51:55 -
[354] - Quote
Hasikan Miallok wrote:My simplistic observation is this:
- people do not generally decide how many PLEX to get based on how much real cash they want to spend - people do not generally decide how many PLEX to get based on how much ISK they get per PLEX
Many (most?) people base their purchases on how much ISK they need.
This means: - PLEX supply will be resistant to ISK/PLEX price changes and may even drop as ISK/PLEX rises - PLEX supply will be resistant to real money price changes and supply will only increase slightly as PLEX price drops
Which lends back to my backwards toilet theory. People only IRL Buy the Plex they need to get a certain isk amount in game. Therefore as the price ingame increases, less Plex is needed to get the assets they want. Those buying plex in game have to work harder, pushing the price of non-plex ingame items down.
It is a vicious cycle. Plex continues to become more scarce as its value in game increases. Sad really.
There needs to be a balance, but without artificial manipulation there can't be. Therefore Plex is a horrible idea since it is really pegged at two differnt currencies, one that changes and one that doesn't, one that has real value and one that doesn't. Plex needs to die honestly. Or someone smarter than I needs to come up with a better system.
Best description of Eve Online and why the community is the way it is
|
Aaron
Eternal Frontier
315
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 23:55:01 -
[355] - Quote
Anne Dieu-le-veut wrote:Aaron wrote: I take the time to understand an listen, some of the plex users are posting on multiple forums that they find it hard to plex their accounts due to the cost being so high. I have no reason to disbelieve them, I'm unsure as to why you seem to think I have nothing to support my claims.
You seem to think me taking onboard what plex users have said is illogical.
It's illogical to expect people selling PLEX are going to lower the price they are asking when there are plenty of people willing to pay the current price.
Fair point, there are people still prepared to pay current prices, but for how long? If plex prices have been tipped to rise to 2bills. I think opinions will change and more people will get tired of the monthly grind.
Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
|
Anne Dieu-le-veut
Natl Assn for the Advancement of Criminal People
244
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 23:56:24 -
[356] - Quote
Aaron wrote: I'm sure the good traders know that this is a temporary high and either the customer base will vanish or the RL cost of plex will be reduced affecting the isk price. I think there is 2 or 3 months of good trading left until plex users get tired and leave. We do forget Eve is supposed to be fun and one doesn't want to clock off RL work and then come home to start his second job Eve online. Have a look at the psychological aspect of this.
If you're playing EVE with an eye on how much PLEX costs, and figuring how much time you have to do stuff you might not necessarily like to fund your PLEX, you are already working your second job, and for **** wages, I might add. |
Salvos Rhoska
1460
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 23:58:33 -
[357] - Quote
Aaron wrote:Ok, so people use plex as an investment buying low then selling high. I'm sure you're aware this type of investment has a time limit and I don't think people will hold on to plex at this point. At some point the stockpile will be sold and used to plex accounts.
How are you faring with affording plex? will you find 1.3b and rising hard to achieve every month? What will you do if you can't achieve it or find it time consuming?
If plex users are finding it hard then this must be listened to.
You are completely missing my point, man.
1) The largest hoarders are not selling. Infact Im not even entirely certain they have any intention of ever selling. The current price situation is irrational as weighed against a tight sequence of strong effects which should have additively reduced PLEX price, but did not. Instead prices rise faster. The force of commerce required to have overcome these commensurate PLEX price mitigators is huge, premeditated, concerted and deliberate.
I previously called you on being too abstract and extreme, now I have to call you on being too narrow.
As I said, PLEX sitting in someones station hold IS NOT SUBBING ANYONE, and yet appreciating in value for every unit taken off the market. Take a minute to think on the long term implications of that.
2) There is no time limit. If you hold 1000+ PLEX , and started buying already in August 2014, your stock value is already enormously appreciated in value. The amount of stockpiled PLEX in this game, at this point, can easily overcome the incidental introduction of more of it in competition, simply by buying it off the market.
3) How am I faring? Im liquidating assets as fast as I can to buy PLEX. My only regret is I didnt do it a month ago (let alone a year ago).
4) This is EVE. Remember that. The potential for critical mass PLEX manipulation has always been a potential. Last years events from last fall have created an excellent opportunity in may ways that some organisations have finally found a window for actualising this.
5) Nothing can be done, except to buy up as much PLEX as you can, right now, so that you are not left disadvantaged when PLEX finally stabilises at some higher rate.
6) PLEX is not going to drop. Nothing indicates that it would. Its rises already overcame significant mitigants, and hoarders have a vested interest in maintaining it high, which they will, and theybhave the appreciated stock with which to facilitate that.
PvE v PvP
|
Aaron
Eternal Frontier
315
|
Posted - 2015.09.17 23:59:36 -
[358] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote:Hasikan Miallok wrote:My simplistic observation is this:
- people do not generally decide how many PLEX to get based on how much real cash they want to spend - people do not generally decide how many PLEX to get based on how much ISK they get per PLEX
Many (most?) people base their purchases on how much ISK they need.
This means: - PLEX supply will be resistant to ISK/PLEX price changes and may even drop as ISK/PLEX rises - PLEX supply will be resistant to real money price changes and supply will only increase slightly as PLEX price drops Which lends back to my backwards toilet theory. People only IRL Buy the Plex they need to get a certain isk amount in game. Therefore as the price ingame increases, less Plex is needed to get the assets they want. Those buying plex in game have to work harder, pushing the price of non-plex ingame items down. It is a vicious cycle. Plex continues to become more scarce as its value in game increases. Sad really. There needs to be a balance, but without artificial manipulation there can't be. Therefore Plex is a horrible idea since it is really pegged at two differnt currencies, one that changes and one that doesn't, one that has real value and one that doesn't. Plex needs to die honestly. Or someone smarter than I needs to come up with a better system.
Nothing can beat your buddy paying your sub for a reward theres no other way. We need regulation, the only way seems to be reducing RL cost.
Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
|
Aaron
Eternal Frontier
315
|
Posted - 2015.09.18 00:09:02 -
[359] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Aaron wrote:Ok, so people use plex as an investment buying low then selling high. I'm sure you're aware this type of investment has a time limit and I don't think people will hold on to plex at this point. At some point the stockpile will be sold and used to plex accounts.
How are you faring with affording plex? will you find 1.3b and rising hard to achieve every month? What will you do if you can't achieve it or find it time consuming?
If plex users are finding it hard then this must be listened to. You are completely missing my point, man. 1) The largest hoarders are not selling. Infact Im not even entirely certain they have any intention of ever selling. The current price situation is irrational as weighed against a tight sequence of strong effects which should have additively reduced PLEX price, but did not. Instead prices rise faster. The force of commerce required to have overcome these commensurate PLEX price mitigators is huge, premeditated, concerted and deliberate. I previously called you on being too abstract and extreme, now I have to call you on being too narrow. As I said, PLEX sitting in someones station hold IS NOT SUBBING ANYONE, and yet appreciating in value for every unit taken off the market. Take a minute to think on the long term implications of that. 2) There is no time limit. If you hold 1000+ PLEX , and started buying already in August 2014, your stock value is already enormously appreciated in value. The amount of stockpiled PLEX in this game, at this point, can easily overcome the incidental introduction of more of it in competition, simply by buying it off the market. 3) How am I faring? Im liquidating assets as fast as I can to buy PLEX. My only regret is I didnt do it a month ago (let alone a year ago). 4) This is EVE. Remember that. The potential for critical mass PLEX manipulation has always been a potential. Last years events from last fall have created an excellent opportunity in may ways that some organisations have finally found a window for actualising this. 5) Nothing can be done, except to buy up as much PLEX as you can, right now, so that you are not left disadvantaged when PLEX finally stabilises at some higher rate. 6) PLEX is not going to drop. Nothing indicates that it would. Its rises already overcame significant mitigants, and hoarders have a vested interest in maintaining it high, which they will, and theybhave the appreciated stock with which to facilitate that.
I'm going to stop talking to you because your view is one-sided, you speak of plex stabilizing but you refuse to take into account the fact that if no one buys it then it is worth nothing. If plex traders aren't careful their stock value will vanish. Traders should analyse the market in its entirety and pay attention to customer feedback. Plex customers have reported that their extra accounts are now closed and they struggle to keep 1 account plexed. the plex traders are like: **** you, pay me! I dunno man there's something wrong with this whole picture.
Listen, don't take my word for anything, we can keep our eyes open and see what happens.
Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
|
Anne Dieu-le-veut
Natl Assn for the Advancement of Criminal People
244
|
Posted - 2015.09.18 00:10:08 -
[360] - Quote
Aaron wrote:Nothing can beat your buddy paying your sub for a reward theres no other way. We need regulation, the only way seems to be reducing RL cost.
You haven't demonstrated in any way how lowering the IRL price of PLEX will lower the market value. You aren't reducing the supply of ISK, so people willing to spend a billion plus can and will spend it.
I honestly wouldn't care either way if they made PLEX price packages identical to sub package prices...I just don't think it would do anything. TBH I think IRL PLEX prices will always be more, because you can do more with them. |
|
Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
587
|
Posted - 2015.09.18 00:13:20 -
[361] - Quote
Aaron wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:Aaron wrote:Ok, so people use plex as an investment buying low then selling high. I'm sure you're aware this type of investment has a time limit and I don't think people will hold on to plex at this point. At some point the stockpile will be sold and used to plex accounts.
How are you faring with affording plex? will you find 1.3b and rising hard to achieve every month? What will you do if you can't achieve it or find it time consuming?
If plex users are finding it hard then this must be listened to. You are completely missing my point, man. 1) The largest hoarders are not selling. Infact Im not even entirely certain they have any intention of ever selling. The current price situation is irrational as weighed against a tight sequence of strong effects which should have additively reduced PLEX price, but did not. Instead prices rise faster. The force of commerce required to have overcome these commensurate PLEX price mitigators is huge, premeditated, concerted and deliberate. I previously called you on being too abstract and extreme, now I have to call you on being too narrow. As I said, PLEX sitting in someones station hold IS NOT SUBBING ANYONE, and yet appreciating in value for every unit taken off the market. Take a minute to think on the long term implications of that. 2) There is no time limit. If you hold 1000+ PLEX , and started buying already in August 2014, your stock value is already enormously appreciated in value. The amount of stockpiled PLEX in this game, at this point, can easily overcome the incidental introduction of more of it in competition, simply by buying it off the market. 3) How am I faring? Im liquidating assets as fast as I can to buy PLEX. My only regret is I didnt do it a month ago (let alone a year ago). 4) This is EVE. Remember that. The potential for critical mass PLEX manipulation has always been a potential. Last years events from last fall have created an excellent opportunity in may ways that some organisations have finally found a window for actualising this. 5) Nothing can be done, except to buy up as much PLEX as you can, right now, so that you are not left disadvantaged when PLEX finally stabilises at some higher rate. 6) PLEX is not going to drop. Nothing indicates that it would. Its rises already overcame significant mitigants, and hoarders have a vested interest in maintaining it high, which they will, and theybhave the appreciated stock with which to facilitate that. I'm going to stop talking to you because your view is one-sided, you speak of plex stabilizing but you refuse to take into account the fact that if no one buys it then it is worth nothing. If plex traders aren't careful their stock value will vanish. Traders should analyse the market in its entirety and pay attention to customer feedback. Plex customers have reported that their extra accounts are now closed and they struggle to keep 1 account plexed. the plex traders are like: **** you, pay me! I dunno man there's something wrong with this whole picture. Listen, don't take my word for anything, we can keep our eyes open and see what happens.
The only things Plex horders have to really worry about is:
A) There is never enough trade volume to do a dump on the market of large quantities for profit. Even at the current prices you wouldn't be able to sell 1000 Plex and make much money from earlier this year, the Buy orders aren't there to support large dumps.
B) If the servers close, or CCP cancels the plex program you are sitting on huge piles of Anaconda Mines.
I guess B isn't that big of a deal because if the servers close who cares about your in game assets anyways.
Just because a person closes their account due to Price of Plex now, doesn't mean they will never come back if the price was imploded on the market.
Best description of Eve Online and why the community is the way it is
|
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1515
|
Posted - 2015.09.18 00:14:18 -
[362] - Quote
Aaron wrote:
Nothing can beat your buddy paying your sub for a reward theres no other way. We need regulation, the only way seems to be reducing RL cost.
How will do that anything other than reduce CCP income?
Reducing price will not increase the amount of PLEX entering the game.
Even the current 10% PLEX sales do not really increase the amount of PLEX in game they just shift the date at which people are buying it.
|
Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
587
|
Posted - 2015.09.18 00:15:49 -
[363] - Quote
Anne Dieu-le-veut wrote:Aaron wrote:Nothing can beat your buddy paying your sub for a reward theres no other way. We need regulation, the only way seems to be reducing RL cost.
You haven't demonstrated in any way how lowering the IRL price of PLEX will lower the market value. You aren't reducing the supply of ISK, so people willing to spend a billion plus can and will spend it. I honestly wouldn't care either way if they made PLEX price packages identical to sub package prices...I just don't think it would do anything. TBH I think IRL PLEX prices will always be more, because you can do more with them.
Yeah but it would be nice to have some parity in the IRL price of Plex. I mean depending on your country of origin you could be paying as much as 60% more than the guy from New York.
Also 2x plex for character transfer when its equivalent price is $20 is a scam. CCP is collecting more from those Plex than they would from the actual service with paypal or a credit/debit account.
Best description of Eve Online and why the community is the way it is
|
Zihao
Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave
87
|
Posted - 2015.09.18 00:20:38 -
[364] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote:I mean depending on your country of origin you could be paying as much as 60% more than the guy from New York.
To be fair, that's entirely to do with governments and their monetary policy. |
Salvos Rhoska
1460
|
Posted - 2015.09.18 00:32:26 -
[365] - Quote
Aaron wrote:I'm going to stop talking to you because your view is one-sided,.. LOLOLOLOL
Thats fine. I have no interest in talking with you either as you are too slow and too far behind to understand what is happening, or the points being raised.
Its like trying to explain to explain chess to a child who cant yet understand beyond naughts and crosses.
You are fixated on irrelevant personal subjective moral imperatives which skew your perspective and have no bearing on the real situation. As most idealists, you are blinded from seeing and dealing with what IS, by what you think SHOULD be.
PvE v PvP
|
Aaron
Eternal Frontier
315
|
Posted - 2015.09.18 00:35:57 -
[366] - Quote
Zihao wrote:Market McSelling Alt wrote:I mean depending on your country of origin you could be paying as much as 60% more than the guy from New York.
To be fair, that's entirely to do with governments and their monetary policy.
Americans seem to get a good deal, i think i saw $22 in this thread?
Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
|
Anne Dieu-le-veut
Natl Assn for the Advancement of Criminal People
244
|
Posted - 2015.09.18 00:38:31 -
[367] - Quote
Aaron wrote:Zihao wrote:Market McSelling Alt wrote:I mean depending on your country of origin you could be paying as much as 60% more than the guy from New York.
To be fair, that's entirely to do with governments and their monetary policy. Americans seem to get a good deal, i think i saw $22 in this thread?
Currently $19.95 for one...that's the regular price. Of course, bigger packages slightly reduce the price per. |
Aaron
Eternal Frontier
315
|
Posted - 2015.09.18 00:39:37 -
[368] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Aaron wrote:I'm going to stop talking to you because your view is one-sided,.. LOLOLOLOL Thats fine. I have no interest in talking with you either as you are too slow and too far behind to understand what is happening, or the points being raised. Its like trying to explain chess to a child who cant yet understand beyond naughts and crosses. You are fixated on irrelevant personal subjective moral imperatives which skew your perspective and have no bearing on the real situation. As most idealists, you are blinded from seeing and dealing with what IS, by what you think SHOULD be.
Forward this to the plex users who are currently cancelling their extra accounts. let them know their view is irrelevant and worth nothing.
I will continue to laugh at your ignorance. Step down from your capitalist perch and just acknowledge that helping the guy who wants to plex 3 extra accounts is good for the game because it will increase numbers.
Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
|
Yang Aurilen
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
888
|
Posted - 2015.09.18 00:52:00 -
[369] - Quote
Aaron wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:Aaron wrote:I'm going to stop talking to you because your view is one-sided,.. LOLOLOLOL Thats fine. I have no interest in talking with you either as you are too slow and too far behind to understand what is happening, or the points being raised. Its like trying to explain chess to a child who cant yet understand beyond naughts and crosses. You are fixated on irrelevant personal subjective moral imperatives which skew your perspective and have no bearing on the real situation. As most idealists, you are blinded from seeing and dealing with what IS, by what you think SHOULD be. Forward this to the plex users who are currently cancelling their extra accounts. let them know their view is irrelevant and worth nothing. I will continue to laugh at your ignorance. Step down from your capitalist perch and just acknowledge that helping the guy who wants to plex 3 extra accounts is good for the game because it will increase numbers.
Grr capitalists? That's something you don't see every day in EVE. PS you know who's hoarding all the PLEX? Goonswarm Federation as they rake in all that ISK from anom buffs. Now we have a grr goons post to cancel out that grr capitalist post.
Post with your NPC alt main and not your main main alt!
|
Zihao
Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave
87
|
Posted - 2015.09.18 01:00:17 -
[370] - Quote
Yang Aurilen wrote: Grr capitalists? That's something you don't see every day in EVE.
Really? Not as common as reddit, perhaps, but seems pretty pervasive. |
|
Salvos Rhoska
1462
|
Posted - 2015.09.18 01:20:51 -
[371] - Quote
Aaron wrote:Forward this to the plex users who are currently cancelling their extra accounts. let them know their view is irrelevant and worth nothing.
I will continue to laugh at your ignorance. Step down from your capitalist perch and just acknowledge that helping the guy who wants to plex 3 extra accounts is good for the game because it will increase numbers.
Im not capitalist. Im a male working in Finland as a nurse. Im quite strongly socialist. Infact tomorrow Im going to join a nationwide protest against an "austerity" plan by our government that plans to cut nurse/policeman/fireman income (already underpaid) and that of most blue-collar workers in a very bad solution to fixing our nations debt and competition issues.
However, I do understand realpolitik and its economic attachments. Political affiliation or inclination is all subjective compared to that. And those apply emmimently here, in EVE.
-PLEX will not drop till the last few PLEX dependant players have liquidated their final assets and dropped their remaining accounts. Considering how many multihundredbillionaires there are in the game, that end is nowhere near in sight.
-Understand that your view is narrow only to the poor. But they are not the only ones PLEXing their accounts. There are any number of super-rich players who can, and will, continue to PLEX even at billions per unit. This is only the beginning of the PLEX inflation.
-The influx of PLEX to the game, is quite isk price inflexible. People buy PLEX primarily based on their expendable income, not on the price of it in isk. Buying PLEX IRL doesnt cost isk, it costs real money. People bought PLEX when it was 750 mil last year. Unless they got a raise IRL in the interim, they are not likely to buy 2 PLEX now just cos it earns em a few more spacebucks. Remember that most of these players are also paying sub ontop of that.
-The sheer quantity, and duration, of PLEX buying/hoarding off the market has already managed to overcome a long sequence of tight and strong factors that "should" have rationally reduced PLEX prices already long ago, many times. Instead it has risen, and continues to do so.
-The sheer quantity of stockpiled PLEX is nigh impervious to the small rate of new PLEX introduction. The latent value of their existing stockpile makes it fiscally rational to buy a PLEX fff the market for a 0.01isk loss, (and yes, its only and just the same old 0.01isk game) if it means your 0.01isk more expensive one is bought afterwards. THAT raises the prices, and you lost nothing.Not only did the PLEX you bought off the market not go towards saturating demand (as a sub, and hence destroyed), but you got the same PLEX back into ypur inventory at almost no cost, and raised the value by 0.01isk. Winwinwin.
-There is a sinister strategic impetus to controlling and raising the PLEX market, in that it deprives your opposition (particularly weaker ones) of cheap PLEX with which to man their defence and space. The higher PLEX rises, the less opposition you will face, as accounts drop like flies.
As I said earlier: -He who controls PLEX, controls the universe
PvE v PvP
|
Zihao
Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave
87
|
Posted - 2015.09.18 01:35:55 -
[372] - Quote
I don't think anyone was mistaking you for a capitalist mate. |
Aaron
Eternal Frontier
315
|
Posted - 2015.09.18 01:55:32 -
[373] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Aaron wrote:Forward this to the plex users who are currently cancelling their extra accounts. let them know their view is irrelevant and worth nothing.
I will continue to laugh at your ignorance. Step down from your capitalist perch and just acknowledge that helping the guy who wants to plex 3 extra accounts is good for the game because it will increase numbers. Im not capitalist. Im a male working in Finland as a nurse. Im quite strongly socialist. Infact tomorrow Im going to join a nationwide protest against an "austerity" plan by our government that plans to cut nurse/policeman/fireman income (already underpaid) and that of most blue-collar workers in a very bad and irrational solution to fixing our nations debt and competition issues. However, I do understand realpolitik and its economic attachments. Political affiliation or inclination is all subjective compared to that. And those apply emminently here, in EVE. There is no fair way to help "those who want to PLEX 3 extra accounts". EVE's systems are brutal and competetive. If they cannot afford to sub 3 accounts, nor make the isk ingame to buy 3 PLEX with 3 accounts, thats too bad, but thats all there is to it. Then use 1, or those which you can afford. Who the hell do you expect to pay for the other 2? The rest of us? Guys like you give the kind of real socialism I represent, a bad name. -PLEX will not drop till the last few PLEX dependant players have liquidated their final assets and dropped their remaining accounts. Considering how many multihundredbillionaires there are in the game, that end is nowhere near in sight. -Understand that your view is narrow only to the poor. But they are not the only ones PLEXing their accounts. There are any number of super-rich players who can, and will, continue to PLEX even at billions per unit. This is only the beginning of the PLEX inflation. -The influx of PLEX to the game, is quite isk price inflexible. People buy PLEX primarily based on their expendable income, not on the price of it in isk. Buying PLEX IRL doesnt cost isk, it costs real money. People bought PLEX when it was 750 mil last year. Unless they got a raise IRL in the interim, they are not likely to buy 2 PLEX now just cos it earns em a few more spacebucks. Remember that most of these players are also paying sub ontop of that. -The sheer quantity, and duration, of PLEX buying/hoarding off the market has already managed to overcome a long sequence of tight and strong factors that "should" have rationally reduced PLEX prices already long ago, many times. Instead it has risen, and continues to do so. -The sheer quantity of stockpiled PLEX is nigh impervious to the small rate of new PLEX introduction. The latent value of their existing stockpile makes it fiscally rational to buy a PLEX fff the market for a 0.01isk loss, (and yes, its only and just the same old 0.01isk game) if it means your 0.01isk more expensive one is bought afterwards. THAT raises the prices, and you lost nothing.Not only did the PLEX you bought off the market not go towards saturating demand (as a sub, and hence destroyed), but you got the same PLEX back into ypur inventory at almost no cost, and raised the value by 0.01isk. Winwinwin. -There is a sinister strategic impetus to controlling and raising the PLEX market, in that it deprives your opposition (particularly weaker ones) of cheap PLEX with which to man their defence and space. The higher PLEX rises, the less opposition you will face, as accounts drop like flies. As I said earlier: -He who controls PLEX, controls the universe. You are only beginning to understand what is involved and its implications, and that only by my teaching. Frankly, you should be paying me for this out of gratitude.
You seem like a capitalist in game and a socialist in RL. kinda odd if you ask me.
The threads I've read also state that they are having problems plexing 1 account. I have been very active on forums recently and my general point is that it is our attitudes that shape the game. If we ignore the gripes about the monthly plex grind then we will be viewed a certain way.
There's nothing you can teach me, you can give me your opinion and I will consider it. Man up and face facts, You choose to ignore the opinions of plex users like many others and you dismiss the point that more plex sales is a good thing. I know this will have an effect on numbers and we will see more people leave. People like you want too much too fast and never consider the implications.
Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
|
Circumstantial Evidence
220
|
Posted - 2015.09.18 01:55:37 -
[374] - Quote
According to my unscientific spot checks of eve-central, the # of plex for sale on market has been steadily increasing over the last 24-36h. From a low of around ~500, to the time of this post, around ~1000. |
Salvos Rhoska
1462
|
Posted - 2015.09.18 01:58:37 -
[375] - Quote
Zihao wrote:I don't think anyone was mistaking you for a capitalist mate.
Aaron wrote:I will continue to laugh at your ignorance. Step down from your capitalist perch and just acknowledge that helping the guy who wants to plex 3 extra accounts is good for the game because it will increase numbers.
PvE v PvP
|
Aaron
Eternal Frontier
315
|
Posted - 2015.09.18 02:08:58 -
[376] - Quote
Circumstantial Evidence wrote:According to my unscientific spot checks of eve-central, the # of plex for sale on market has been steadily increasing over the last 24-36h. From a low of around ~500, to the time of this post, around ~1000.
Hmmm, looks like its the stockpiles of plex being put on the market by people wishing to cash out. Real traders have their eyes open and know they must sell. I could be wrong though, it may be more people buying plex and selling due to the higher isk price.
If its the latter then CCP just did -ú8,500.00 worth of trade in 36 hours. My money is on the former.
Circumstantial Evidence, good work.
Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
|
Zihao
Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave
88
|
Posted - 2015.09.18 02:22:42 -
[377] - Quote
Circumstantial Evidence wrote:According to my unscientific spot checks of eve-central, the # of plex for sale on market has been steadily increasing over the last 24-36h. From a low of around ~500, to the time of this post, around ~1000.
The plot thickens. |
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
489
|
Posted - 2015.09.18 02:29:50 -
[378] - Quote
Anne Dieu-le-veut wrote:Eli Apol wrote:Anne Dieu-le-veut wrote:I'm sure CCP is losing all kinds of sleep over freeloaders threatening to quit. It's like threatening to stop pirating cable if the cable company doesn't lower their prices.
WTF do you whiners honestly expect CCP to do? They're not going to put a hard cap on what people can charge. If they lowered the IRL price of PLEX, there is no guarantee people buying PLEX from CCP would sell them any cheaper. If PLEX are selling reasonably fast for 1.2B, there's no reason for sellers to lower the price. You seem to forget that us freeloaders are part of the content they provide to their paying customers. You make it sound like you're doing CCP a favor lol. You didn't answer the question...what do you want them to do about it? I haven't whined about it since I'm still plexing my accounts fairly comfortably - therefore your question wasn't directed at me. I'm just pointing out how stupid your particular rubbishing of free players was without them just how much quieter would the game be?
but what would I know, I'm just a salvager
|
Circumstantial Evidence
222
|
Posted - 2015.09.18 02:31:11 -
[379] - Quote
@Aaron: Thanks, but, the reasons are probably a combination of everything, up to and including some CCP listings to help calm the market... CCP has no price target, but reserves the right to intervene when the rate of increase gets over a certain threshold. But this relatively small increase in availability could be less dire than speculators dumping everything. It could be smart dollar-cost-averaging; list 5 here, 10 there - concerned about a possible CCP intervention, and have some liquid isk available to buy more PLEX if it drops below the speculator's own target.
|
Aaron
Eternal Frontier
315
|
Posted - 2015.09.18 02:44:22 -
[380] - Quote
Circumstantial Evidence wrote:@Aaron: Thanks, but, the reasons are probably a combination of everything, up to and including some CCP listings to help calm the market... CCP has no price target, but reserves the right to intervene when the rate of increase gets over a certain threshold. But this relatively small increase in availability could be less dire than speculators dumping everything. It could be smart dollar-cost-averaging; list 5 here, 10 there - concerned about a possible CCP intervention, and have some liquid isk available to buy more PLEX if it drops below the speculator's own target.
Again, good work. This is what I call trading. If there is concern about a product you're selling (plex) then what the customer or user of the product thinks should be very important to you.
I'd like to hear more from real plex traders who analyse every aspect.
Are you struggling to get sales? What is the extent of your investments in plex? Do you think CCP will intervene? Do you think the isk cost will rise?
Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
|
|
Sir SmashAlot
The League of Extraordinary Opportunists Intergalactic Conservation Movement
182
|
Posted - 2015.09.18 03:00:44 -
[381] - Quote
Pump and Dump Pump and Dump Pump and .... PANIC!!!! |
Salvos Rhoska
1463
|
Posted - 2015.09.18 03:25:57 -
[382] - Quote
Zihao wrote:Circumstantial Evidence wrote:According to my unscientific spot checks of eve-central, the # of plex for sale on market has been steadily increasing over the last 24-36h. From a low of around ~500, to the time of this post, around ~1000. The plot thickens.
I have a vested interest in this (unfinancial, as I EAT all myPLEX), and have been encouraging people to liquidate all un-needed assets immediately and buy PLEX as soon and as cheap as they can.
My reasons for this are as follows: -According to my assessment, the PLEX market has been manipulated by deliberate and concerted hoarding action since last fall, particularly in anticipation of the ISBox restraints. -Thereafter occured several other strong factors (including PLEX sales, and a dramatic reduction in account activity) that rationally should have dropped PLEX price, but instead, it rose over and beyond these mitigants. -Part of this escalation had been from incidental smaller PLEX traders picking up on the trend.
Now its ( already well past) time for the rest of the community to step in, especially for PLEX dependants, to insure their sub/investment future.
The reasons for this are as follows: -The more PLEX that dependant players buy now, the longer they can remain in the game. If they wait, prices will escalate even further beyond their means. DO IT NOW. Prices will escalate whether you do so or not, so get it "cheap" while you can. -Although its somewhat counterintuitive, as buying more PLEX raises the prices, especially if bought in a short period before refraction, it also squeezes the margins of whatever mass PLEX hoarders are currently operating, as more PLEX is consumed, rather than stockpiled. -The more non-hoarders (ie: PLEX consumers) buy up and eat PLEX off the market, the more they reduce future demand, which again eats into the hoarders margins. -The impetus here, as unavoidably (as benefit hopefully to people who need them and buy them NOW) unfortunate as immediste raised prices are, is that it brings the "bubbles" extreme closer to popping. -The higher the price goes, the more likely it is CCP will somehow react, and the more likely dissent spreads to prompt that. -We dont know how high the tolerance for isk/PLEX will go. Considering the amount of multihundredbillionaires who PLEX anything and everything, who will continue to buy PLEX even in the billions, the small operators need to get their value out of the market NOW. You cant compete with these guys once PLEX passes your meager income, which for them is incidental.
If you are PLEX dependant, sell everything you wont use/need for the next 6 months, and buy as much PLEX to eat as you can. Do it NOW while its still relatively cheap. This will hopefully help you tide over and remain in the game till "something" happens, or you can reskill for more income, or find funds to sub.
PvE v PvP
|
lord xavier
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
86
|
Posted - 2015.09.18 03:28:23 -
[383] - Quote
A lot of people are converting their assets into plex. Have been for months. So... There is no surprise it keeps rising. |
Glathull
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
1106
|
Posted - 2015.09.18 03:44:14 -
[384] - Quote
What's going to happen when PLEX hit 2 billion?
Is EvE going to die even moar???!!!
Oh no. Not really. I'll just keep buying them with real money and selling them for moar ISK.
Thank you to everyone who is supporting my play-style.
I honestly feel like I just read fifty shades of dumb. --CCP Falcon
|
Salvos Rhoska
1463
|
Posted - 2015.09.18 03:48:36 -
[385] - Quote
Aaron wrote:
Hmmm, looks like its the stockpiles of plex being put on the market by people wishing to cash out. Real traders have their eyes open and know they must sell. I could be wrong though, it may be more people buying plex and selling due to the higher isk price.
If its the latter then CCP just did -ú8,500.00 worth of trade in 36 hours. My money is on the former.
Circumstantial Evidence, good work.
Both conclusions would be stupid decisions by those parties.
"Real traders" can see that PLEX rise has no pending end in sight. They are not selling, they are buying.
As to figures of people importing PLEX, it no longer matters, because the majority of that imported PLEX is being bought up by Traders and stockpiled, not consumed, which therefore does not saturate the PLEX demand.
When a CONSUMING player buys and EATS a PLEX, he is removed from demand for a month.
When a hoarder buys and stockpiles a PLEX off the market, ITS VALUE APPRECIATES (as does that of the rest of his PLEX) and it does not reduce demand at all. Instead, it decreases supply.
PvE v PvP
|
Salvos Rhoska
1463
|
Posted - 2015.09.18 04:25:37 -
[386] - Quote
Glathull wrote:. I'll just keep buying them with real money and selling them for moar ISK.
Youd be better off waiting for higher isk prices before selling your PLEX.
I mean selling them now is kind of like selling off your Nokia shares in 1995, right before a 5x revenue...
PvE v PvP
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26113
|
Posted - 2015.09.18 09:52:47 -
[387] - Quote
Aaron wrote:Tippia,
You've obviously not read the posts from plex users and understood what they have to go through to plex their accounts. Irrelevant. None of your predictions are anything other than speculation, especially the consequences of halving an income source for CCP.
The fact of the matter is that you display a complete ignorance of how markets work, and ignorantly assigns a direct correlation between two parameters that are separated by half a dozen steps. Your premise is deeply flawed; your causal link is highly questionable; your conclusions are nonsensical. There are no two ways about it.
I understand that you want to pay less for PLEX. You have to come up with a far more coherent and cogent argument if you ever want that to happen.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
Aaron
Eternal Frontier
315
|
Posted - 2015.09.18 10:53:02 -
[388] - Quote
Still laughing at Salvos and Tippia's ignorance. LOLOLOLOLOL
I repeat for the 17th time, If the plex customer base vanishes then plex is worth little. It is important that you go back in this thread and read some of the posts from plex users. Also take the time to have a look at other threads where plex users have said similar things for a couple of months now.
Plex users have said they are having trouble plexing ALL of their accounts, plex sales have been lost.
The troll is obviously on me, and I've fallen for it.
Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
|
Captain Awkward
Republic University Minmatar Republic
68
|
Posted - 2015.09.18 11:45:21 -
[389] - Quote
Hm. PLEX is traided on the market like every other item in EvE is.
But PLEX is special because it can effect Sub numbers. Als long as prices are made by supply and demand everything is fine. But as soon as PLEX is used for speculation (and we all know it is) then we get into more dangerous territory.
I know I will be crucified for this but : CCP should limit the number of PLEX a single account can have at any given time. Any account currently sitting on massive amounts of plex should not be able to buy more, only sell untill they drop under the allowed threshold.
There are enough other items on the marked that you can ecco PvP with.
And im saying that as someone who has never used PLEX to sub. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26114
|
Posted - 2015.09.18 11:51:53 -
[390] - Quote
Aaron wrote:Still laughing at Salvos and Tippia's ignorance. So you still have no argument since you have been reduced to a complete reliance on fallacies to carry your non-case.
Quote:I repeat for the 17th time GǪstuff that has been dismissed 85 times. You only have speculation. You have no valid evidence for any of your claims. You have no logical causal chain to tie your speculation together. As a result, you have no cogent conclusion. You only have a deep-seated wish to pay less for PLEX, and no way of articulating a cogent reason why your wish should come true. You have even gone so far as to report people who point out this lack of coherence in your argument.
Quote:The troll is obviously on me, and I've fallen for it. Close. You accidentally included the word GÇ£onGÇ¥.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
|
Skeln Thargensen
katana spelunking trips
592
|
Posted - 2015.09.18 11:55:31 -
[391] - Quote
i'm looking at a 2000 day chart from eve central and it is looking a little bubbly right now.
i doubt the price will pull back much if it does crash though. too many starved microempires out there.
forums. -áserious business.
|
Anne Dieu-le-veut
Natl Assn for the Advancement of Criminal People
245
|
Posted - 2015.09.18 12:09:00 -
[392] - Quote
Eli Apol wrote:Anne Dieu-le-veut wrote:Eli Apol wrote:Anne Dieu-le-veut wrote:I'm sure CCP is losing all kinds of sleep over freeloaders threatening to quit. It's like threatening to stop pirating cable if the cable company doesn't lower their prices.
WTF do you whiners honestly expect CCP to do? They're not going to put a hard cap on what people can charge. If they lowered the IRL price of PLEX, there is no guarantee people buying PLEX from CCP would sell them any cheaper. If PLEX are selling reasonably fast for 1.2B, there's no reason for sellers to lower the price. You seem to forget that us freeloaders are part of the content they provide to their paying customers. You make it sound like you're doing CCP a favor lol. You didn't answer the question...what do you want them to do about it? I haven't whined about it since I'm still plexing my accounts fairly comfortably - therefore your question wasn't directed at me. I'm just pointing out how stupid your particular rubbishing of free players was without them just how much quieter would the game be?
How much quieter would the game be...I don't know and don't care. How many of those people even interact with other players? This thread boils to people complaining about the price of a fake item bought with fake money...it doesn't get much more first world problems than that. |
Harry Forever
SpaceJunkys
1279
|
Posted - 2015.09.18 12:11:34 -
[393] - Quote
a titan should cost 200 eur max, therefore i predict plex at 10b within 5 years
YouTube - Harry Forever vs. Goonswarm
|
Yang Aurilen
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
889
|
Posted - 2015.09.18 12:31:25 -
[394] - Quote
Harry Forever wrote:a titan should cost 200 eur max, therefore i predict plex at 10b within 5 years
Doing some google math converting Euro to US$ then dividing the total cost with the cost of plex then multiplying it with the cost of plex ingame yields: 14,342,899,834.9. So you want a titan to cost as much as a super-carrier hull?
Post with your NPC alt main and not your main main alt!
|
Sipphakta en Gravonere
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
635
|
Posted - 2015.09.18 16:02:39 -
[395] - Quote
Yang Aurilen wrote:Harry Forever wrote:a titan should cost 200 eur max, therefore i predict plex at 10b within 5 years Doing some google math converting Euro to US$ then dividing the total cost with the cost of plex then multiplying it with the cost of plex ingame yields: 14,342,899,834.9. So you want a titan to cost as much as a super-carrier hull?
Interesting math you got there. |
Zihao
Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave
88
|
Posted - 2015.09.18 17:01:09 -
[396] - Quote
Have the Marxists got us a 5 year plan yet? |
Bagrat Skalski
Poseidaon
9666
|
Posted - 2015.09.18 18:35:58 -
[397] - Quote
Harry Forever wrote:a titan should cost 200 eur max, therefore i predict plex at 10b within 5 years Or 0B in 2 years.
CCP could just liqidate all PLEX and convert all of it to Aurum. Aurum would then became a sellable item, more granular.
Custom ship skins, character creator style "repaint". Bring it!
|
Zihao
Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave
89
|
Posted - 2015.09.18 19:16:09 -
[398] - Quote
Bagrat Skalski wrote:Harry Forever wrote:a titan should cost 200 eur max, therefore i predict plex at 10b within 5 years Or 0B in 2 years. CCP could just liqidate all PLEX and convert all of it to Aurum. Aurum would then became a sellable item, more granular.
That's not a bad idea really. Assuming equivalent pricing a more divisible currency would be more flexible. It would also see more speculation though as the price to participate in said speculation would drop. I like it. |
Circumstantial Evidence
226
|
Posted - 2015.09.18 19:31:47 -
[399] - Quote
Supply has slowly increased over the last 12h, but not at the prices we might like, lol. Again, the important thing for CCP, if they are intervening in supply at all, is to calm the rate of increase.
I think a few rich players (all these 25-lots) are hoping for another run-up, to cash out on the high end. (But they could have been listed for sale some time ago, I wasn't looking for these types of numbers in previous posts.)
The 36-lot at the "low" end is the largest lot on the low side, which kind of puts a temporary "floor" on things, for as long as it stays un-edited and other players say "no, I can sell cheaper than that." Only looking at the large lots. There are a bunch of 9-lots lower than this, an easy number to type that might also be a small number of players ;)
Numbers from eve-central:
1,600,000,000.00 - 25 1,500,000,000.00 - 25 1,499,999,999.00 - 20 1,400,000,000.00 - 25 1,380,000,000.00 - 25 1,370,000,000.00 - 25 1,365,000,000.00 - 25 1,329,598,999.00 - 22 1,318,999,999.99 - 36
Interesting Buy order: 1,256,007,000.00 - 100 Wow. |
Bagrat Skalski
Poseidaon
9668
|
Posted - 2015.09.18 19:56:16 -
[400] - Quote
Its hard to say where these prices would be in a month. Days of predictability are over. Something snapped.
Custom ship skins, character creator style "repaint". Bring it!
|
|
Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
589
|
Posted - 2015.09.18 19:57:40 -
[401] - Quote
Bagrat Skalski wrote:Its hard to say where these prices would be in a month. Days of predictability are over. Something snapped.
Lots of old rich players were are going to leave the game anyways decided to take their isk and ruin it for everyone?
I don't know. That is what I am doing. Before I go I am buying a few hundred billion isk of Plex to keep it off the market, then unsub all of my accounts.
Best description of Eve Online and why the community is the way it is
|
Odie McCracken
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
36
|
Posted - 2015.09.18 20:09:08 -
[402] - Quote
So what page will this thread be on when it gets to 1.5Bil? My guess is 25. |
Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
589
|
Posted - 2015.09.18 20:31:17 -
[403] - Quote
Odie McCracken wrote:So what page will this thread be on when it gets to 1.5Bil? My guess is 25.
Don't be so sure... watch the price as we type. Someone is getting out early
Best description of Eve Online and why the community is the way it is
|
Tank Murdock Jnr
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
19
|
Posted - 2015.09.18 20:32:32 -
[404] - Quote
Odie McCracken wrote:So what page will this thread be on when it gets to 1.5Bil? My guess is 25.
Well, I'm reliably informed that lots of old rich players are leaving with the intention of ruining it for everyone. So, page 22.
When a person is insane, as you clearly are, do you know that you're insane? Maybe you're just sitting around, reading 'Guns and Ammo', masturbating in your own faeces, do you just stop and go, 'Wow! It is amazing how f*cking crazy I really am!'?
|
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
589
|
Posted - 2015.09.18 20:46:26 -
[405] - Quote
Tank Murdock Jnr wrote:Odie McCracken wrote:So what page will this thread be on when it gets to 1.5Bil? My guess is 25. Well, I'm reliably informed that lots of old rich players are leaving with the intention of ruining it for everyone. So, page 22.
When the garbage is cleaned up, does it not get better?
To quote Lfod Shi
The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
|
Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
589
|
Posted - 2015.09.18 20:49:53 -
[406] - Quote
Markus Reese wrote:Tank Murdock Jnr wrote:Odie McCracken wrote:So what page will this thread be on when it gets to 1.5Bil? My guess is 25. Well, I'm reliably informed that lots of old rich players are leaving with the intention of ruining it for everyone. So, page 22. When the garbage is cleaned up, does it not get better?
No, the lights get turned off.
Best description of Eve Online and why the community is the way it is
|
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
589
|
Posted - 2015.09.18 21:01:09 -
[407] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
No, the lights get turned off.
That is only if new players dont come in their place. Let the old vets leave. Those of us with a more community game mentality will build a better gameplay environment that is actually inclusive... If CCP is in this for the future still.
To quote Lfod Shi
The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
|
Aoife Fraoch
Rabble Inc.
137
|
Posted - 2015.09.18 23:17:05 -
[408] - Quote
If the current activity is caused by players exiting the market (leaving the game is exiting the market, even if the assets are locked in their accounts) then it should only be tempory.
Oh and one more thing, posts from interested parties to a forum used by a minority of players is not a good indication of what the player base thinks. It is so far away from anything resembling a survey that those treating it as such are bad and should feel bad. |
Geanos
V I R I I Ineluctable.
33
|
Posted - 2015.09.18 23:41:21 -
[409] - Quote
Tbh, cheap ISK creates a bigger problem than the PLEX price. It kills the "shakes" and it kills the ability to inflict meaningful losses to your opponents, both the trademarks of EVE for a long time. Kills of 1 or 2 billion ISK are not even being look at a second time, supercarrier kills are like "yeah, nice, let's move on" and losing a faction / T3 fleet is not worth the effort of lifting an eyebrow, all because we know they are easily replaced.
This hurts EVE more than the PLEX prices. Cheap ISK makes the game boring. |
Aaron
Eternal Frontier
315
|
Posted - 2015.09.19 00:13:25 -
[410] - Quote
Circumstantial Evidence wrote:Supply has slowly increased over the last 12h, but not at the prices we might like, lol. Again, the important thing for CCP, if they are intervening in supply at all, is to calm the rate of increase.
I think a few rich players (all these 25-lots) are hoping for another run-up, to cash out on the high end. (But they could have been listed for sale some time ago, I wasn't looking for these types of numbers in previous posts.)
The 36-lot at the "low" end is the largest lot on the low side, which kind of puts a temporary "floor" on things, for as long as it stays un-edited and other players say "no, I can sell cheaper than that." Only looking at the large lots. There are a bunch of 9-lots lower than this, an easy number to type that might also be a small number of players ;)
Numbers from eve-central:
1,600,000,000.00 - 25 1,500,000,000.00 - 25 1,499,999,999.00 - 20 1,400,000,000.00 - 25 1,380,000,000.00 - 25 1,370,000,000.00 - 25 1,365,000,000.00 - 25 1,329,598,999.00 - 22 1,318,999,999.99 - 36
Interesting Buy order: 1,256,007,000.00 - 100 Wow.
Whoever the 100 unit buy order belongs to is going to lose lots of isk. I'm thinking that lots of folk would have off loaded their plex to that 100 buy order and exited plex trading. Circumstantial, is that buy order still at 100?
The people you mention trying to cash out will have a hard time doing so, we have seen a few posts saying that plexing multiple accounts has become hard and not worth the effort. admittedly I don't know the extent of how many guys have cancelled their extra accounts my gut tells me it is a handful. I have come to the conclusion that there won't be as much plex sales as there were.
I've said this before but there seems to be more plex on the market since my last post, Is business for CCP really good, or is it really plex traders cashing out.
Since there seems to be no plex traders contributing to this convo it's hard to know for sure. I guess all traders can really do is speculate just like what I am doing, It is important analyse everything related to a product you're trading, I think that buy order for 100 belongs to Salvos or Tippia, they don't realise they are about to fail.
Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
|
|
Zihao
Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave
89
|
Posted - 2015.09.19 00:51:59 -
[411] - Quote
Geanos wrote:Cheap ISK makes the game boring.
Incidentally, it also drives the price of PLEX since that's one of the few ways one can safely invest all that lumpen isk. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2478
|
Posted - 2015.09.19 01:16:23 -
[412] - Quote
Geanos wrote:Tbh, cheap ISK creates a bigger problem than the PLEX price. It kills the "shakes" and it kills the ability to inflict meaningful losses to your opponents, both the trademarks of EVE for a long time. Kills of 1 or 2 billion ISK are not even being look at a second time, supercarrier kills are like "yeah, nice, let's move on" and losing a faction / T3 fleet is not worth the effort of lifting an eyebrow, all because we know they are easily replaced.
This hurts EVE more than the PLEX prices. Cheap ISK makes the game boring. Except it's only 'easy to replace' for the monolithic null entities that are full of vets. Everyone else gets crippled by those loses. |
Bagrat Skalski
Poseidaon
9671
|
Posted - 2015.09.19 01:32:37 -
[413] - Quote
Its when you have a game of vets with years of neglecting the "jesus" features and trying to be relevant on ps3, or other platforms and not your key clients. Now you get the term bittervet. Its essence is in that cheap ISK flooding the market.
Its our end game. Chinese got it few times earlier already. Their Vets are aquiring their status really fast, same as ISK.
Custom ship skins, character creator style "repaint". Bring it!
|
Candy Box
One Night Standings
27
|
Posted - 2015.09.19 01:46:41 -
[414] - Quote
I just suspended our sevice to Eve pilots wishing to boost their standings. We have done nearly 200 boosts for people in the last year. But I don't have the staff anymore. Plex and the general feeling Eve is headed in the wrong direction has left me without mission runners in our organization. Also our client pool is drying up because there is generally less people in the game now and little influx of new players.
TL:DR = Plex manipulators won. ONS losses out. |
Yang Aurilen
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
892
|
Posted - 2015.09.19 02:06:55 -
[415] - Quote
Candy Box wrote:I just suspended our sevice to Eve pilots wishing to boost their standings. We have done nearly 200 boosts for people in the last year. But I don't have the staff anymore. Plex and the general feeling Eve is headed in the wrong direction has left me without mission runners in our organization. Also our client pool is drying up because there is generally less people in the game now and little influx of new players.
TL:DR = Plex manipulators won. ONS losses out.
Isn't it because more people are actually going to null with the anom buffs?
Post with your NPC alt main and not your main main alt!
|
Aoife Fraoch
Rabble Inc.
137
|
Posted - 2015.09.19 02:54:06 -
[416] - Quote
For all the doom and gloom happening here, it is interesting that when you start to trawl through the market data (thank you CCP for the CREST API) the volume of plex being traded seems to be largely unaffected by the price.
The extreme changes in PLEX price is totally unrelated to volume.
I think a few times in this thread people have always mentioned how real money activity for PLEX is mostly unaffected by in game activity. |
Zihao
Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave
89
|
Posted - 2015.09.19 03:21:28 -
[417] - Quote
Aoife Fraoch wrote:For all the doom and gloom happening here, it is interesting that when you start to trawl through the market data (thank you CCP for the CREST API) the volume of plex being traded seems to be largely unaffected by the price.
The extreme changes in PLEX price is totally unrelated to volume.
I think a few times in this thread people have always mentioned how real money activity for PLEX is mostly unaffected by in game activity.
The price of a desirable good going up tends to get the economically deficient into a frenzy. |
Divine Entervention
Legion's Knights Of The Round Intrepid Crossing
609
|
Posted - 2015.09.19 03:28:22 -
[418] - Quote
Sorry guys, looks like you're going to have to take a shower and go get a job. |
Aaron
Eternal Frontier
315
|
Posted - 2015.09.19 03:51:34 -
[419] - Quote
Candy Box wrote:I just suspended our sevice to Eve pilots wishing to boost their standings. We have done nearly 200 boosts for people in the last year. But I don't have the staff anymore. Plex and the general feeling Eve is headed in the wrong direction has left me without mission runners in our organization. Also our client pool is drying up because there is generally less people in the game now and little influx of new players.
TL:DR = Plex manipulators won. ONS losses out.
Another group of people affected by plex price. Tippia, Salvos have you read this post and understood it? This Ceo has obviously asked his corp members why they are leaving the game and they have told him it is partly to do with plex price. This is key information for CCP and plex traders to work off of.
So, now we have 1 less corp in Eve, this one helped players boost standings which is honorable.
Based on the RL plex price being -ú16.99 in the UK and the isk plex price being 1.3b, -ú1.00 seems to be worth approx 76m. If the RL plex price was -ú9.99 we could see an isk plex price of 760m. So people who buy plex for RL cash will still get a good deal and because players would be in a better position to plex more than 1 account we would see more plex sales in game, and obviously more RL plex sales for CCP. The only thing that will change is the monthly grind for plex users won't be so hard.
Honestly, the plex traders are just trying to get some value for the RL cash they spent because it is expensive compared to the sub cost. My solution above will get plex users back in the game and boost the economy, we could have the 5 account miner back flooding the market with minerals making everything nice and cheap, more players in game means more to shoot at, and CCP will solidify their existing customer base and give new players who want to play an easier goal to achieve for affording plex.
We can't continue to ignore posts like the one I quoted and pretend there's nothing wrong, CCP must act before it is too late.
Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
|
Zihao
Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave
89
|
Posted - 2015.09.19 03:55:15 -
[420] - Quote
Aaron, I'm surprised you haven't suggested the obvious solution of forcing every player to submit a tax return so that CCP can charge only those able to pay. This really is the only "fair," way of doing things. Surely a good socialist would support this instead of that craven-quasi-capitalist stuff you mentioned in the other thread? |
|
Aaron
Eternal Frontier
315
|
Posted - 2015.09.19 04:06:01 -
[421] - Quote
Zihao wrote:Aaron, I'm surprised you haven't suggested the obvious solution of forcing every player to submit a tax return so that CCP can charge only those able to pay. This really is the only "fair," way of doing things. Surely a good socialist would support this instead of that craven-quasi-capitalist stuff you mentioned in the other thread?
Go ahead and troll me while the game falls apart around us. At least I'm putting forward viable solutions instead of chatting ****.
Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
|
Zihao
Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave
89
|
Posted - 2015.09.19 04:55:17 -
[422] - Quote
I'm shocked and appalled to hear you describe socialism as not being "viable." |
Salvos Rhoska
1468
|
Posted - 2015.09.19 08:14:37 -
[423] - Quote
Aaron wrote: I think that buy order for 100 belongs to Salvos, they don't realise they are about to fail.
Read my posts accurately. I eat all my PLEX. You are letting your personal hurt feelings cloud your judgement.
Your "thought" here, is wrong. Now think about what all else you might be wrong about ontop of that.
PvE v PvP
|
La Rynx
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
391
|
Posted - 2015.09.19 09:29:21 -
[424] - Quote
Aaron wrote:Zihao wrote:Aaron, I'm surprised you haven't suggested the obvious solution of forcing every player to submit a tax return so that CCP can charge only those able to pay. This really is the only "fair," way of doing things. Surely a good socialist would support this instead of that craven-quasi-capitalist stuff you mentioned in the other thread? Go ahead and troll me while the game falls apart around us. At least I'm putting forward viable solutions instead of chatting ****. We... us...
Start by speaking for yourself.
IF those people are really so desperate, they will need to speak for themselfes. This is EvE, quite close to RL! Means?
Keep your "fair" for yourself.
I do not want to repeat the arguments you already ignore, so that you will just ignore them again. PLEX are NOT the EvE killer as you want to make them.
Being a stubborn "gutmensch" about them does not help you or your case. Wanna play EvE without investing own money? Earn isk, its not that hard you want to make believe. You want to play more than one char that way? One has to work harder.
You stand up and try to defend a bunch of happless whiners.
Atomic Virulent : "You can't spell DOUCHE. without CODE."
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26122
|
Posted - 2015.09.19 09:45:31 -
[425] - Quote
Aaron wrote:Another group of people affected by plex price. Tippia, Salvos have you read this post and understood it? Have you? Did you notice that nothing he said was connected to what you're arguing?
His post, like every one you try to dig up is still irrelevant to your position. They still don't support any part of your lack of argument. Finding more of them will not change this.
You have failed to prove that your suggestion will have anything even remotely resembling the consequences you imagine. You hav also failed to prove that not following your suggestion will have anything even remotely resembling the consequences you imagine for that path. In short, you have failed to demonstrate anything that supports your wish for cheaper PLEX GÇö you have no argument.
Unless you start addressing the points everyone have brought up against the monumental gaps and flaws in your reasoning, you still won't have an argument GÇö referencing more irrelevant posts will not change this. Address the points or just accept the unavoidable fact that you're wrong. Can you do this?
Quote:At least I'm putting forward viable solutions No you're not. Reducing CCPs income is not a viable solution to anything, and that's the only thing you have suggested. Hell, it's not even a solution GÇö it's just you being cheap, and nothing CCP does can ever change that.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
489
|
Posted - 2015.09.19 10:33:17 -
[426] - Quote
Anne Dieu-le-veut wrote:Eli Apol wrote:Anne Dieu-le-veut wrote:Eli Apol wrote:Anne Dieu-le-veut wrote:I'm sure CCP is losing all kinds of sleep over freeloaders threatening to quit. It's like threatening to stop pirating cable if the cable company doesn't lower their prices.
WTF do you whiners honestly expect CCP to do? They're not going to put a hard cap on what people can charge. If they lowered the IRL price of PLEX, there is no guarantee people buying PLEX from CCP would sell them any cheaper. If PLEX are selling reasonably fast for 1.2B, there's no reason for sellers to lower the price. You seem to forget that us freeloaders are part of the content they provide to their paying customers. You make it sound like you're doing CCP a favor lol. You didn't answer the question...what do you want them to do about it? I haven't whined about it since I'm still plexing my accounts fairly comfortably - therefore your question wasn't directed at me. I'm just pointing out how stupid your particular rubbishing of free players was without them just how much quieter would the game be? How much quieter would the game be? I don't know and don't care. How many of those people even interact with other players? Let's just consider your sample size of PLEX users that you have never interacted with...which I presume is 0 since you've never interacted with them and so logically you can't quantify them in your sample size.
Then consider the PLEX users you have interacted with...which is probably not 0...(hint I'm a PLEX user and I'm interacting with you).
Now according to my very limited mathematical ability, that gives you a 100% interaction with PLEX users based upon YOUR experiences. So where exactly is the evidence that these PLEX users don't interact with you let alone other players in the game.
NB. I'm aware that this is obviously not a true reflection of the real 'interaction' percentage of PLEX users - just again proving how stupid your points are.
but what would I know, I'm just a salvager
|
Aoife Fraoch
Rabble Inc.
139
|
Posted - 2015.09.19 10:42:39 -
[427] - Quote
Aaron wrote:Zihao wrote:Aaron, I'm surprised you haven't suggested the obvious solution of forcing every player to submit a tax return so that CCP can charge only those able to pay. This really is the only "fair," way of doing things. Surely a good socialist would support this instead of that craven-quasi-capitalist stuff you mentioned in the other thread? Go ahead and troll me while the game falls apart around us. At least I'm putting forward viable solutions instead of chatting ****.
I was going to write something longer, but there is little point. Mostly because you are trolling.
You propose an idea, you concern troll 'for the poor plexing users' and you respond to criticisms of your idea with mocking and personal attacks just on the right side of the forum rules.
So, troll.
For everyone else, there is no reason to assume that increasing the supply of PLEX will cause any immediate change in the plex price, but many others have addressed this. |
Aaron
Eternal Frontier
315
|
Posted - 2015.09.19 14:27:50 -
[428] - Quote
Tippia, Salvos, anything I will say you will disagree with.
If I said the numbers are dropping would you agree? No.
If I said that based on customer feedback a hand full of players have said they see plex isk price as a reason for them leaving would you agree? No.
You guys really see a corp CEO reporting that many of his players have left the game because of plex price and other reasons as irrelevant? Yes.
So the first rule of any business you guys are doing is to ignore customer feedback? Yes.
If people have the attitude of Tippia and salvos then were going to fail for sure.
I've studied plex on eve central which was updated about 1 hour ago and I have questions. Why is the buy order for 100 plex gone? Has someone cashed out? or have they taken down the buy order because they see investing in plex as a bad move? whatever the case it is important to analyse why.
The posts I mentioned where people have said plex is a reason for them leaving are in fact relevant, CCP and the plex traders are losing sales.
Do you see that by making it possible for the 5 account guy to plex his accounts as a good thing? No.
You guys have developed a bad attitude toward listening and understanding key information related to why our numbers are dropping, I also think that any intelligent person who has the ability to analyse the plex market will never waste their time posting here because they'll get similar apathetic responses from CCP and most of the remaining player base. Complaining about obvious issues which affect the game has become pointless and I'm going to leave you guys to fumble around trying to figure out why numbers are dropping.
We are going through an Eve recession, CCP are the only ones who can remedy this.
Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
|
Tank Murdock Jnr
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
20
|
Posted - 2015.09.19 14:45:31 -
[429] - Quote
Aaron wrote:Everyhing Aaron has said in this thread.
Yeah, I'm going to have to call troll too. It's gone way past being even a remotely sensible position.
When a person is insane, as you clearly are, do you know that you're insane? Maybe you're just sitting around, reading 'Guns and Ammo', masturbating in your own faeces, do you just stop and go, 'Wow! It is amazing how f*cking crazy I really am!'?
|
Aaron
Eternal Frontier
315
|
Posted - 2015.09.19 14:48:04 -
[430] - Quote
Tippia wrote:
No you're not. Reducing CCPs income is not a viable solution to anything, and that's the only thing you have suggested. Hell, it's not even a solution GÇö it's just you being cheap, and nothing CCP does can ever change that.
You've not paid attention, I've said multiple times that I am not a plex user. I passionately argue my points because lots of people leaving will affect me. You don't even have the ability to read what I have said in it's entirety yet you want to talk like you're a market analyst.
A cheaper RL plex cost will attract more people and prop up the economy within Eve.
Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
|
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26124
|
Posted - 2015.09.19 14:53:43 -
[431] - Quote
Aaron wrote:Tippia, Salvos, anything I will say you will disagree with. No, just the stuff that makes no sense, the stuff that you can't explain, the stuff that you can't argue in favour of, and the stuff that you fail to provide supporting evidence for.
Unfortunately, that pretty much covers the stuff you're willing to actually provide. Well, that and strawman arguments or other fallacies, since you know that any attempt on your part at constructing an actual argument will fail, seeing as how you have none of the necessary components to make one.
Quote:If people have the attitude of Tippia and salvos then were going to fail for sure. No, only you. You see, the attitude I have is that you need to provide evidence to support your stance, as well as some kind of causal coherence. This is a good attitude to have since it leads to informed decisions. It also exposes uninformed and ignorant ideasGǪ you know, yours. That's why you fail, every time.
Quote:The posts I mentioned where people have said plex is a reason for them leaving are in fact relevant No. None of them even come close to being relevant to your idea that CCP needs to reduce the retail price of PLEX. They don't even mention it, and you have consistently failed to offer any sane or sensible connection between what they say and what you want the conclusion to be.
Quote:You guys have developed a bad attitude toward listening and understanding key information related to why our numbers are dropping No. We have just developed the attitude that until you actually provide a sane, coherent, consistent, evidence-supported argument, your posts are worthless spam. This is not a GÇ£bad attitudeGÇ¥ GÇö it's just an inevitable and logical conclusion.
Quote:We are going through an Eve recession, CCP are the only ones who can remedy this. Prove it.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
25072
|
Posted - 2015.09.19 15:02:03 -
[432] - Quote
Aaron wrote:Tippia wrote:
No you're not. Reducing CCPs income is not a viable solution to anything, and that's the only thing you have suggested. Hell, it's not even a solution GÇö it's just you being cheap, and nothing CCP does can ever change that.
You've not paid attention, I've said multiple times that I am not a plex user. I passionately argue my points because lots of people leaving will affect me. You don't even have the ability to read what I have said in it's entirety yet you want to talk like you're a market analyst. A cheaper RL plex cost will attract more people and prop up the economy within Eve. Good god man, are you seriously that naive? Ingame prices would not decrease, any cheaper PLEX that appeared for sale would be instantly gobbled up and added to current stockpiles.
On a side note... You do realise that a subscription is cheaper than a PLEX?
Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26126
|
Posted - 2015.09.19 15:10:42 -
[433] - Quote
Aaron wrote:You don't even have the ability to read what I have said in it's entirety yet you want to talk like you're a market analyst. Not only do I have the ability to read what you say GÇö I also have the ability to analyse the chain of events you're envisioning and notice that you can't actually link it together in a coherent manner. That leaves a single sane and sensible reason for your requestGǪ
Quote:A cheaper RL plex cost will attract more people and prop up the economy within Eve. Prove it.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
Aaron
Eternal Frontier
315
|
Posted - 2015.09.19 15:11:05 -
[434] - Quote
Tippia wrote:
No. None of them even come close to being relevant to your idea that CCP needs to reduce the retail price of PLEX. They don't even mention it, and you have consistently failed to offer any sane or sensible connection between what they say and what you want the conclusion to be.
LMAO, now you're trying to tell me the RL price of a plex has no effect on the isk price? The people who use RL cash to buy plex want value for money which I understand. This is the kind of logic you refer to as insane. God knows how you got all those likes, you talk ****.
Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
|
Zihao
Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave
93
|
Posted - 2015.09.19 15:12:22 -
[435] - Quote
Aaron wrote:We are going through an Eve recession, CCP are the only ones who can remedy this.
I don't see the workers' controlling the means of production, so how are you able to say this? Clearly it violates your stated principles. |
Tank Murdock Jnr
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
21
|
Posted - 2015.09.19 15:16:46 -
[436] - Quote
I actually think there is an argument to increase the real-life price of plex and subscriptions.
People who actually wanted to play would shrug, pay a little more, and keep doing so...and those who are constant cry-babies would disappear up their own wormholes and give the rest of us peace.
Charge a premium price for a premium product! Evict the paupers!
When a person is insane, as you clearly are, do you know that you're insane? Maybe you're just sitting around, reading 'Guns and Ammo', masturbating in your own faeces, do you just stop and go, 'Wow! It is amazing how f*cking crazy I really am!'?
|
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
25072
|
Posted - 2015.09.19 15:17:26 -
[437] - Quote
Aaron wrote:LMAO, now you're trying to tell me the RL price of a plex has no effect on the isk price? It doesn't, the RL price of a PLEX is irrelevant once it enters the game, because it no longer has a RL fiscal value.
The only things that affects the isk price of a PLEX as an ingame item are how much you can get away with selling it for, and how much people are willing to pay for it. Any excess PLEX generated by a cheaper price soon get added to the stockpiles of the people of people who use them as an investment or collateral.
As Tippia says you are making an outlandish claim, it is up to you to provide proof of it. I'll make it easy for you; Amazon PLEX sales, which offer considerable reductions, and their effect, or lack of it, on the isk value of PLEX.
Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26127
|
Posted - 2015.09.19 15:17:48 -
[438] - Quote
Aaron wrote:LMAO, now you're trying to tell me the RL price of a plex has no effect on the isk price? No, I'm telling you to prove it.
So prove it.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
Zihao
Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave
93
|
Posted - 2015.09.19 15:26:53 -
[439] - Quote
I can see where the cash price of PLEX going down could induce a few new cash buyers, and I believe the corollary is also true, that PLEX purchasing power going up means more new entrants selling a small number of or individual PLEX.
But, what's being glossed over by our Comrade is the fact that sustained lowering of the price point isn't something CCP can afford, else they'd already be doing it. |
Aaron
Eternal Frontier
315
|
Posted - 2015.09.19 15:28:52 -
[440] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Aaron wrote:Tippia wrote:
No you're not. Reducing CCPs income is not a viable solution to anything, and that's the only thing you have suggested. Hell, it's not even a solution GÇö it's just you being cheap, and nothing CCP does can ever change that.
You've not paid attention, I've said multiple times that I am not a plex user. I passionately argue my points because lots of people leaving will affect me. You don't even have the ability to read what I have said in it's entirety yet you want to talk like you're a market analyst. A cheaper RL plex cost will attract more people and prop up the economy within Eve. Good god man, are you seriously that naive? Ingame prices would not decrease, any cheaper PLEX that appeared for sale would be instantly gobbled up and added to current stockpiles. On a side note... You do realise that a subscription is cheaper than a PLEX?
LOL, If the cost was reduced to -ú9.99 and this prompted cheaper plex people could go ahead and gobble up the cheaper plex to stockpile, I think it would be futile because the value wouldn't be there. If the price of -ú16.99 is reduced then obviously the in game value will reduce.
I agree that it would take a while to reduce.
Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
|
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26127
|
Posted - 2015.09.19 15:33:38 -
[441] - Quote
Aaron wrote:If the cost was reduced to -ú9.99 and this prompted cheaper plex GÇ£IfGÇ¥. That's where your entire problem lies. This is the part you need to prove. Or, wellGǪ it's the fist part you have to prove.
Quote:I think it would be futile because the value wouldn't be there. If the price of -ú16.99 is reduced then obviously the in game value will reduce. Prove it.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
Aaron
Eternal Frontier
315
|
Posted - 2015.09.19 15:35:23 -
[442] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Aaron wrote:LMAO, now you're trying to tell me the RL price of a plex has no effect on the isk price? It doesn't, the RL price of a PLEX is irrelevant once it enters the game, because it no longer has a RL fiscal value. The only things that affects the isk price of a PLEX as an ingame item are how much you can get away with selling it for, and how much people are willing to pay for it. Any excess PLEX generated by a cheaper price soon get added to the stockpiles of the people of people who use them as an investment or collateral. As Tippia says you are making an outlandish claim, it is up to you to provide proof of it. I'll make it easy for you; Amazon PLEX sales, which offer considerable reductions, and their effect, or lack of it, on the isk value of PLEX.
In a few months we will be at the point where people aren't willing to pay anything for plex because they've left the game.
Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
|
Nicolai Serkanner
Jebediah Kerman's Junkyard and Spaceship Parts Co. Brave Collective
483
|
Posted - 2015.09.19 15:36:21 -
[443] - Quote
Aaron wrote:Tippia wrote:
No. None of them even come close to being relevant to your idea that CCP needs to reduce the retail price of PLEX. They don't even mention it, and you have consistently failed to offer any sane or sensible connection between what they say and what you want the conclusion to be.
LMAO, now you're trying to tell me the RL price of a plex has no effect on the isk price? The people who use RL cash to buy plex want value for money which I understand. This is the kind of logic you refer to as insane. God knows how you got all those likes, you talk ****.
You should really stop posting because you make absolutely no sense at all. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
25072
|
Posted - 2015.09.19 15:39:05 -
[444] - Quote
Aaron wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Aaron wrote:Tippia wrote:
No you're not. Reducing CCPs income is not a viable solution to anything, and that's the only thing you have suggested. Hell, it's not even a solution GÇö it's just you being cheap, and nothing CCP does can ever change that.
You've not paid attention, I've said multiple times that I am not a plex user. I passionately argue my points because lots of people leaving will affect me. You don't even have the ability to read what I have said in it's entirety yet you want to talk like you're a market analyst. A cheaper RL plex cost will attract more people and prop up the economy within Eve. Good god man, are you seriously that naive? Ingame prices would not decrease, any cheaper PLEX that appeared for sale would be instantly gobbled up and added to current stockpiles. On a side note... You do realise that a subscription is cheaper than a PLEX? LOL, If the cost was reduced to -ú9.99 and this prompted cheaper plex people could go ahead and gobble up the cheaper plex to stockpile, I think it would be futile because the value wouldn't be there. If the price of -ú16.99 is reduced then obviously the in game value will reduce. I agree that it would take a while to reduce. I don't think it would reduce at all tbh, there are enough people willing to pay the current prices, because it represents a very small percentage of their in game income stream, that any glut of cheaper PLEX would simply be snapped up and relisted at a profitable price or added to an existing stockpile.
The people who are sitting on PLEX stockpiles can afford to buy them in bulk as fast as they appear, by virtue of having enough space gold to make Scrooge Mcduck look like a hobo.
Quote:In a few months we will be at the point where people aren't willing to pay anything for plex because they've left the game.
Doom and gloom...
Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
|
Aaron
Eternal Frontier
315
|
Posted - 2015.09.19 15:47:19 -
[445] - Quote
Nicolai Serkanner wrote:Aaron wrote:Tippia wrote:
No. None of them even come close to being relevant to your idea that CCP needs to reduce the retail price of PLEX. They don't even mention it, and you have consistently failed to offer any sane or sensible connection between what they say and what you want the conclusion to be.
LMAO, now you're trying to tell me the RL price of a plex has no effect on the isk price? The people who use RL cash to buy plex want value for money which I understand. This is the kind of logic you refer to as insane. God knows how you got all those likes, you talk ****. You should really stop posting because you make absolutely no sense at all.
Does this guy not make any sense either?
A plex sale for people and ccp
Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
|
Zihao
Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave
93
|
Posted - 2015.09.19 15:47:58 -
[446] - Quote
I don't see how you could doubt his predictive power. He's clearly the central planner we all need. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
25072
|
Posted - 2015.09.19 15:54:52 -
[447] - Quote
Unlike you he puts forward a halfway decent argument for what he proposes, and he accepts that his proposal would only result in a temporary, if any, reduction in current market prices.
I suggest you read it fully before comparing it to your insanity.
Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26127
|
Posted - 2015.09.19 16:02:15 -
[448] - Quote
He has evidence and reasoning to support his stance, which coincidentally directly contradict your assumptions, so that's an immediate mark in his favour. He also concludes that it won't actually make PLEX prices go down in the long run, but also happily skips over the fundamental problem that it drastically reduces not just CCP's income, but their ability to reliably predict that income over a long period.
So just because he makes more sense than you (and contradicts you in doing so) doesn't mean that the overall plan is very sensible or well thought-though, no.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
Aaron
Eternal Frontier
315
|
Posted - 2015.09.19 16:53:59 -
[449] - Quote
Tippia wrote:He has evidence and reasoning to support his stance, which coincidentally directly contradict your assumptions, so that's an immediate mark in his favour. He also concludes that it won't actually make PLEX prices go down in the long run, but also happily skips over the fundamental problem that it drastically reduces not just CCP's income, but their ability to reliably predict that income over a long period. So just because he makes more sense than you (and contradicts you in doing so) doesn't mean that the overall plan is very sensible or well thought-though, no.
So whats your plan to increase numbers and bring back the players who have already left due to high plex prices? Oh wait, you're not even prepared to acknowledge there is a problem or that people post replies that relate to them leaving because of the said issue.
Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26129
|
Posted - 2015.09.19 16:58:37 -
[450] - Quote
Aaron wrote:So whats your plan to [yadda yadda irrelevant guff] Trying to evade the question by shifting the burden of proof will not make it go away GÇö that's why it's a fallacy.
So: prove it.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
|
Aaron
Eternal Frontier
315
|
Posted - 2015.09.19 17:00:42 -
[451] - Quote
x
Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
|
Tank Murdock Jnr
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
21
|
Posted - 2015.09.19 17:01:09 -
[452] - Quote
Aaron wrote:So whats your plan to increase numbers and bring back the players who have already left due to high plex prices? Oh wait, you're not even prepared to acknowledge there is a problem or that people post replies that relate to them leaving because of the said issue.
I wasn't aware players were in some way obligated to come up with plans for this type of thing. I was under the impression that players could, you know, just play the game and CCP would come up with their own business model.
Have CCP asked for player help in defining or changing their business model? Or did you just randomly wake up one day and decide to splurge Fedo-turd all over the forums while stroking yourself over your own apparent cleverness?
When a person is insane, as you clearly are, do you know that you're insane? Maybe you're just sitting around, reading 'Guns and Ammo', masturbating in your own faeces, do you just stop and go, 'Wow! It is amazing how f*cking crazy I really am!'?
|
admiral root
Red Galaxy
3319
|
Posted - 2015.09.19 17:02:04 -
[453] - Quote
Aaron wrote:So whats your plan to increase numbers and bring back the players who have already left due to high plex prices?
I have a truly radical plan for that - leave it to the people who are paid to worry about it.
No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff
CODE. forum - everyone's welcome (no shiptoasters)
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26129
|
Posted - 2015.09.19 17:06:08 -
[454] - Quote
Aaron wrote:Oh and you still haven't answered my question about the buy order for 100 plex, what do you think has happened to it? Yes I have: it still irrelevant. My answers do not in any way alter or affect your complete inability to articulate a coherent and well-supported argument for the change you want to see.
Present your argument or admit that you don't have one. Or, better yet, just be quiet and stop trolling.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
Anne Dieu-le-veut
Natl Assn for the Advancement of Criminal People
249
|
Posted - 2015.09.19 18:23:36 -
[455] - Quote
Eli Apol wrote:Let's just consider your sample size of PLEX users that you have never interacted with...which I presume is 0 since you've never interacted with them and so logically you can't quantify them in your sample size.
Then consider the PLEX users you have interacted with...which is probably not 0...(hint I'm a PLEX user and I'm interacting with you).
Now according to my very limited mathematical ability, that gives you a 100% interaction with PLEX users based upon YOUR experiences. So where exactly is the evidence that these PLEX users don't interact with you let alone other players in the game.
NB. I'm aware that this is obviously not a true reflection of the real 'interaction' percentage of PLEX users - just again proving how stupid your points are since even your own limited, anecdotal evidence, supports the complete opposite of your beliefs.
If we take it one step further, what is interacting? Even selling the single unit of tritanium - which is gifted with each rookie ship - on the market is interacting with the general market and thus interacting even if they never undocked or did anything else in game. Basically you're talking bollocks.
It was a rhetorical question, and any answer is irrelevant. You're not entitled to play for free, and if you put yourself in the position where you're relying on someone else to fund your account, you have to compete with all the other people in the same position for that privilege.
Aoife Fraoch wrote: I was going to write something longer, but there is little point. Mostly because you are trolling.
You propose an idea, you concern troll 'for the poor plexing users' and you respond to criticisms of your idea with mocking and personal attacks just on the right side of the forum rules.
So, troll.
For everyone else, there is no reason to assume that increasing the supply of PLEX will cause any immediate change in the plex price, but many others have addressed this.
Yeah, once there was the feign concern over people not able to afford to PLEX their multiple accounts, I don't think there was much doubt. However, enough people DO feel entitled to cheap PLEX that it's worth debunking his absurd logic. |
Circumstantial Evidence
227
|
Posted - 2015.09.19 20:00:54 -
[456] - Quote
Aaron wrote:Tippia, Oh and you still haven't answered my question about the buy order for 100 plex, what do you think has happened to it? *My* guess on what happened to it, is, the responsible party watched the market non-stop after placing it, saw a gradual trend down, and probably canceled the buy order before it filled. I just think of the isk lost in taxes, when I see a big bet like that ;)
Someone with 100 valuable anythings to sell, doesn't (in my opinion) dump them all to a buy order, unless they are truly done with the game, don't care, and taking a long vacation. The smarter thing is to put valuables up for sale in small groups so you can get a little more isk. And if the market moves suddenly, you haven't "put all your eggs in one basket."
You have collected a few stories about high plex prices discouraging some players from subbing that way, but, I agree with other posters here that there seem to be plenty of other players still around, picking up those plex's. Supplies are still very low (~1500), relative to the number of active players in-game.
Good news is on the horizon, in the form of an ad-worthy, marketable expansion to EVE centered around new Citadel structures. That ought to bring some re-sub's and new-subs, wanting to check out the new eye candy. The building of these new toys will buff industry and markets. They will provide a new reason (for some players) to spend real money on plexes to sell for isk. |
Aerasia
Republic University Minmatar Republic
97
|
Posted - 2015.09.19 21:51:59 -
[457] - Quote
Circumstantial Evidence wrote:Supplies are still very low (~1500), relative to the number of active players in-game. Maybe. It's certainly possible that the same 2,000 PLEX are just trading back and forth on the market, but that seems incredibly unlikely.
I would think that PLEX is being purchased and flipped a few times before finally being consumed. Previous, unverified, quotations from Devs indicate that multiple training and Aurum make up a smaller portion of the PLEX consumption. With that in mind, the 'supply' relative to the playerbase is the 30 day trade volume, or ~60,000.
And the fact PLEX lost 100M in value in 48 hours makes me think we might actually be seeing a bit of a supply glut. |
Aaron
Eternal Frontier
315
|
Posted - 2015.09.19 22:12:35 -
[458] - Quote
Circumstantial Evidence wrote:Aaron wrote:Tippia, Oh and you still haven't answered my question about the buy order for 100 plex, what do you think has happened to it? *My* guess on what happened to it, is, the responsible party watched the market non-stop after placing it, saw a gradual trend down, and probably canceled the buy order before it filled. I just think of the isk lost in taxes, when I see a big bet like that ;) Someone with 100 valuable anythings to sell, doesn't (in my opinion) dump them all to a buy order, unless they are truly done with the game, don't care, and taking a long vacation. The smarter thing is to put valuables up for sale in small groups so you can get a little more isk. And if the market moves suddenly, you haven't "put all your eggs in one basket." You have collected a few stories about high plex prices discouraging some players from subbing that way, but, I agree with other posters here that there seem to be plenty of other players still around, picking up those plex's. Supplies are still very low (~1500), relative to the number of active players in-game. Good news is on the horizon, in the form of an ad-worthy, marketable expansion to EVE centered around new Citadel structures. That ought to bring some re-sub's and new-subs, wanting to check out the new eye candy. The building of these new toys will buff industry and markets. They will provide a new reason (for some players) to spend real money on plexes to sell for isk.
The current price is a risky trade if you're buying, If what you're saying is accurate then he would have been left with 100 plex @1.25b. I am in full agreement with your take on what happened.
I also agree that there are still plenty of players demanding plex, By analysing threads, market numbers and logon numbers It does look as if there are less plex users than before and the information I have gathered points at more people leaving in the future due to this issue. It is something I will keep an eye on over the next few months to see if I am right.
Whats your view on the possibility that the RL cost of plex could affect the isk cost in game?
Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
|
Aoife Fraoch
Rabble Inc.
140
|
Posted - 2015.09.19 22:50:51 -
[459] - Quote
I see your conjecture and raise you data. http://rpubs.com/randomGraphs/110260
In short, we have seen a temporary increase in plex traded on the market recently and while it did affect the price for a period of a few days, the market rallied and continued it's upwards climb. In fact over the last month volume traded appears to be up. |
Circumstantial Evidence
229
|
Posted - 2015.09.19 23:46:26 -
[460] - Quote
Aerasia wrote:...With that in mind, the 'supply' relative to the playerbase is the 30 day trade volume, or ~60,000. And the fact PLEX lost 100M in value in 48 hours makes me think we might actually be seeing a bit of a supply glut. Thank you for that! I've just been going by unscientific spot checks of current availability. A monthly trade volume is a more useful number. And while "supply glut" is a generous term, I agree with it in principle, as we went from a low of around ~500 in my spot check of eve-central 3-4 days ago, when this thread started heating up with posts from players noticing the run up, to today around ~1500. Plex price seems to be stabilizing at a new level, no idea how long it will hold.
Aaron wrote:Whats your view on the possibility that the RL cost of plex could affect the isk cost in game? The relationship is very complex, and I agree with others here that you may not be taking enough factors into account, trying to draw a cause and effect between. I'd probably get it wrong, or at least leave something out if I tried to describe all the possible factors that tug on the ISK cost of PLEX, backtracking to a feedback loop of its RL cost.
CCP encourages direct subs, by keeping PLEX higher than 6 and 12 month discount plans. PLEX was first designed as a legal source of one-way RL to ISK conversion, for players who might buy isk / RMT. Its high ISK value makes the risks of buying ISK from black market sources not worth the risk of getting caught and banned.
CCP encourages other uses of PLEX, driving up its ISK value to some players, with its connection to the in-game store and stuff you can buy there.
Some players trying to stay on the F2P bandwagon may be falling off, due to the high(er) isk cost of PLEX, but it is still possible with consistent effort, and makes a good goal to strive for.
If a person has more money than time to be online, then, a monthly plan is the best way to go. If more time than money, then, keep at it, with market activity, incursions, mission spam, exploration, begging from friends, planetary industry (very nice at high skill levels and all three characters on an account.)
|
|
Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
597
|
Posted - 2015.09.20 01:29:06 -
[461] - Quote
Aaron wrote:Nicolai Serkanner wrote:Aaron wrote:Tippia wrote:
No. None of them even come close to being relevant to your idea that CCP needs to reduce the retail price of PLEX. They don't even mention it, and you have consistently failed to offer any sane or sensible connection between what they say and what you want the conclusion to be.
LMAO, now you're trying to tell me the RL price of a plex has no effect on the isk price? The people who use RL cash to buy plex want value for money which I understand. This is the kind of logic you refer to as insane. God knows how you got all those likes, you talk ****. You should really stop posting because you make absolutely no sense at all. Does this guy not make any sense either? A plex sale for people and ccp
From your own article:
"CCP can run all the sales they want, but unless players en masse feel thereGÇÖs a need for a quick infusion of liquid isk, it wonGÇÖt change playersGÇÖ desire to spend their cash buying PLEX from CCP."
So no, people aren't going to buy cheaper plex because the need for plex is not there to support it at any price. The deflationary pressure of items in this game, and the lack of expensive end game goals now have led us to no longer need isk infusion.
Again, we need Content. PVP, PVE, PVB, PBJ anything, Content.
Best description of Eve Online and why the community is the way it is
|
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1517
|
Posted - 2015.09.20 02:59:40 -
[462] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote:[quote=Aaron] So no, people aren't going to buy cheaper plex because the need for plex is not there to support it at any price. The deflationary pressure of items in this game, and the lack of expensive end game goals now have led us to no longer need isk infusion.
Again, we need Content. PVP, PVE, PVB, PBJ anything, Content.
Pretty much.
One or two PLEX will get you a carrier or a level IV fitted Marauder or incursion capable logi or Pirate BS or pay for a stack of PvP capable smaller ships.
There is nothing to motivate people to buy PLEX in big quantities even if they were half thecurrent real cash price.
|
Zihao
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
97
|
Posted - 2015.09.20 05:30:34 -
[463] - Quote
Hasikan Miallok wrote:There is nothing to motivate people to buy PLEX in big quantities even if they were half thecurrent real cash price.
Characters, soon to be re balanced capital ships, citadels, etc. |
Beta Maoye
78
|
Posted - 2015.09.20 07:22:30 -
[464] - Quote
What else would you expect when unlimited amount of money are printed everyday?
The problem of overwhelmingly supply of isk can be mitigated if isk can be used to purchase items in New Eden Store and those isk spent is removed from the game. Items that can be purchased by isk should be separated from those that can be purchased by aur for the purpose of preserving the value of aur. |
Bagrat Skalski
Poseidaon
9695
|
Posted - 2015.09.20 08:16:06 -
[465] - Quote
PLEX used only for game time and not exchangable to anything else, as it was when I started playing, will not make it magically lose its value, maybe it will only slower the climb rate, but if these speculators are so clever, I dont expect even that. There will be those sell orders for 1B as long as there is less PLEX than people are willing to buy.
Custom ship skins, character creator style "repaint". Bring it!
|
Tam Arai
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
41
|
Posted - 2015.09.20 13:09:06 -
[466] - Quote
I live in a country where my salary is nowhere near the level of anyone earning the minimum wage in any western country yet i still subscribe 2 accounts and I have done so for 2 years now. there is no way i could grind the amount necessary to plex both accounts- i have neither the time or the inclination.
plexing your account is a privilege not a right. If you want various accounts, pay for them with irl cash and suddenly the price of plex is not at all important |
Aaron
Eternal Frontier
315
|
Posted - 2015.09.20 13:25:26 -
[467] - Quote
Tam Arai wrote:I live in a country where my salary is nowhere near the level of anyone earning the minimum wage in any western country yet i still subscribe 2 accounts and I have done so for 2 years now. there is no way i could grind the amount necessary to plex both accounts- i have neither the time or the inclination.
plexing your account is a privilege not a right. If you want various accounts, pay for them with irl cash and suddenly the price of plex is not at all important
I think it is wrong that part of your post will be seen as irrelevant and will be ignored by most of us including CCP. All I will say that it is great that you are able to pay for a sub and remain in the game, some people may not be as fortunate. Based on the responses I have had I don't think anyone will be prepared to do anything to make it easier for people to plex 2 or more accounts.
Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26142
|
Posted - 2015.09.20 13:26:55 -
[468] - Quote
Aaron wrote:Based on the responses I have had I don't think anyone will be prepared to do anything to make it easier for people to plex 2 or more accounts. So what you're saying is that you haven't been paying the slightest bit of attention. I also can't help noticing that you ignored the main gist of his postGǪ
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
Salvos Rhoska
1469
|
Posted - 2015.09.20 13:36:20 -
[469] - Quote
Tam Arai wrote:I live in a country where my salary is nowhere near the level of anyone earning the minimum wage in any western country yet i still subscribe 2 accounts and I have done so for 2 years now. there is no way i could grind the amount necessary to plex both accounts- i have neither the time or the inclination.
plexing your account is a privilege not a right. If you want various accounts, pay for them with irl cash and suddenly the price of plex is not at all important
PLEX is not a "privilege". Its a commodity that is bought into the universal game world with RLM. Ingame, it is acquired from them with ingame money earned rightfully in the game environment.
There is nothing "privileged" about any of that. Any and all PLEX are sourced from CCP with RLM. This "privilege" is extended to anyone, and everyone, who pays for it, and hence is no privilege at all, as it is available to everyone.
The only difference between you and other people buying PLEX either outside of game, or within it, is they live in countries, or work jobs, that earn more or less than you in yours, or they earn more or less than you ingame.
So the privilege is vested in them living in a country in which they can earn more than you, or they have jobs which earn more than you, or they have less dependant costs than you, or they play harder ingame than you, or they play smarter ingame than you.
None of which have to do with PLEX itself being anykind of "privilege".
In anycase, since you dont buy PLEX from outside of the game, nor within it, you have nothing to do with the PLEX cycle.
PvE v PvP
|
Aaron
Eternal Frontier
315
|
Posted - 2015.09.20 13:44:30 -
[470] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Aaron wrote:Based on the responses I have had I don't think anyone will be prepared to do anything to make it easier for people to plex 2 or more accounts. So what you're saying is that you haven't been paying the slightest bit of attention. I also can't help noticing that you ignored the main gist of his postGǪ
I get the gist of his post. He has said he feels it's not viable for him to plex his 2 accounts, he has endorsed subbing multiple accounts in order to avoid the plex price.
I think that you've ignored the part where he said he's not inclined to grind the amount needed for 2 plex, why can't I analyse part of what he has said?
Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
|
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26142
|
Posted - 2015.09.20 13:48:30 -
[471] - Quote
Aaron wrote:I get the gist of his post. He has said he feels it's not viable for him to plex his 2 accounts He said it's not needed. He says that if he doesn't need it, then no-one else really does either.
Quote:I think that you've ignored the part where he said he's not inclined to grind the amount needed for 2 plex No. That's part of why you missed the point.
Quote:why can't I analyse part of what he has said? Because you fail to take the whole into account. That's the consistent error you've made all through your continued failure to construct a coherent argument.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
Tam Arai
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
41
|
Posted - 2015.09.20 14:00:12 -
[472] - Quote
Tippia has understood the main point of my post
It would be great if I could play for free but I am happy to pay for something that I enjoy |
Salvos Rhoska
1469
|
Posted - 2015.09.20 14:02:32 -
[473] - Quote
Tam Arai wrote:It would be great if I could play for free but I am happy to pay for something that I enjoy
There is no play for free.
PvE v PvP
|
Aaron
Eternal Frontier
316
|
Posted - 2015.09.20 14:26:36 -
[474] - Quote
Tam Arai wrote:
There is no way i could grind the amount necessary to plex both accounts- i have neither the time or the inclination.
All I am suggesting is that there needs to be some sort of change, make it so that people are inclined to to take the time to grind for a plex. Our numbers are dropping and I think this is part of the reason.
I get that plex isn't just used for game time. If anything can be done to prompt the plex traders to lower their isk price it should be done as soon as possible so that we don't have anymore people desubbing their main or extra accounts. Numbers are dropping in Eve and it is important to address ALL the reasons why.
Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
|
u3pog
Ministerstvo na otbranata
712
|
Posted - 2015.09.20 14:49:01 -
[475] - Quote
Many people say they can not afford PLEX at it's current price, yet it is roughly 20% more than it was last month. It's not like it is double or triple cost now. I keep wondering how did these people afford anything at all? If you were barely able to grind for PLEX when it was say, 900 mil, how did you buy ships, modules, etc.? And, since the PLEX is going to get more expensive on the long run, how will you deal with it once it hits 2 billion?
New players are in bad situation, but so was I when began playing back in 2008. PLEX was less than 300 million, but it was way harder to earn that, so I don't see how are we in any different position today?
Think of it as being cheap right now... |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26142
|
Posted - 2015.09.20 14:52:59 -
[476] - Quote
Aaron wrote:All I am suggesting is that there needs to be some sort of change, make it so that people are inclined to to take the time to grind for a plex. Why the hell would you ever want people to grind for anything? Grinding is a fundamental failure of game design, and is a plague on MMOs to the point where it has become an informal, much-maligned sub-genre that rightly gets laughed at because of how stupid an idea it is. Making people more inclined to grind is not a way to keep them around GÇö quite the opposite: the less they're inclined to grind, the better.
Quote:Our numbers are dropping and I think this is part of the reason. No. The numbers are not dropping because people aren't grinding. Enticing them to grind more is not a solution, nor is enticing more people to use PLEX. What you want is more players to subscribe, because that's what builds developer confidence and allows for long-term investments.
Quote:If anything can be done to prompt the plex traders to lower their isk price it should be done as soon as possible so that we don't have anymore people desubbing their main or extra accounts. You are effectively asking for the market to be irrational. That's not a good thing, nor is it something that should be promoted or forced to happen.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
25079
|
Posted - 2015.09.20 15:27:39 -
[477] - Quote
Aaron wrote:All I am suggesting is that there needs to be some sort of change, make it so that people are inclined to to take the time to grind for a plex. If you're willing to grind for a PLEX you're welcome to do so, don't assume that other people feel the same. IMHO playing to pay is one of the fastest ways to kill the primary purpose of playing games, fun.
Quote:Our numbers are dropping and I think this is part of the reason. PCU is not subs, the relationship between them is tenuous at best when you consider the use of alt accounts for the purposes of scouting, cynos, trading etc.
Quote:I get that plex isn't just used for game time. If anything can be done to prompt the plex traders to lower their isk price Intervention by CCP in the PLEX market is something that should only be done after considerable deliberation and discussion of the ramifications of doing so by their in house team of economists, who incidentally have a far deeper knowledge of Eve's economy than you do. It is not a step they will take lightly as it goes against the idea of a player driven economy, which is a mainstay of Eve.
Quote:it should be done as soon as possible so that we don't have anymore people desubbing their main or extra accounts. Numbers are dropping in Eve and it is important to address ALL the reasons why. Online numbers are down from historical highs due an infinite number of reasons. Those reasons might include the price of PLEX, changes in the game, the state of the real world economy, real life in general, solar flare activity, alien mind rays from Alpha Centauri, the price of tinfoil haberdashery, Goons (grr) etc; there again, they might not.
The only people that are going to have anything close to a clue as to why the PCU is lower than it has been in the past are CCP. That said, the PCU appears to be fairly stable at the moment, at least for the last few months. If and when CCP decides that PLEX prices are a problem they will look into what can be done about it, and whether or not doing anything at all would be a good idea in the first place; that's why they have a team of economists on call.
Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
|
Tank Murdock Jnr
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
23
|
Posted - 2015.09.20 16:32:10 -
[478] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:The only people that are going to have anything close to a clue as to why the PCU is lower than it has been in the past are CCP.
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:that's why they have a team of economists on call.
No! Lies!
Aaron knows better than them all. I believe!
When a person is insane, as you clearly are, do you know that you're insane? Maybe you're just sitting around, reading 'Guns and Ammo', masturbating in your own faeces, do you just stop and go, 'Wow! It is amazing how f*cking crazy I really am!'?
|
Zihao
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
99
|
Posted - 2015.09.20 16:54:52 -
[479] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote: PLEX is not a "privilege". Its a commodity that is bought into the universal game world with RLM.
PLEX is not a "commodity," it's a series of bits in memory somewhere on a server bought into the game universe with algorithms.
Actually, since we're going to be obnoxiously literal and obtuse to idiom, PLEX is just a bunch of vibrating sub-atomic matter.
|
Salvos Rhoska
1470
|
Posted - 2015.09.20 17:02:37 -
[480] - Quote
Zihao wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote: PLEX is not a "privilege". Its a commodity that is bought into the universal game world with RLM.
PLEX is not a "commodity," it's a series of bits in memory somewhere on a server bought into the game universe with algorithms. Actually, since we're going to be obnoxiously literal and obtuse to idiom, PLEX is just a bunch of vibrating sub-atomic matter.
You just face-planted. Hard.
Pick up your teeth and be on your way.
PvE v PvP
|
|
Arthur Aihaken
Perkone Caldari State
4655
|
Posted - 2015.09.20 18:02:52 -
[481] - Quote
PLEX could easily hit $2-billion ISK by year's end.
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26143
|
Posted - 2015.09.20 18:14:05 -
[482] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:PLEX could easily hit $2-billion ISK by year's end. Which one? $-áor ISK?
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
Zihao
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
103
|
Posted - 2015.09.20 18:29:45 -
[483] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote: You just face-planted.
This is not my face. This is my avatar.
Faces cannot be "planted," because they are not plants.
You lose literal-man. |
Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
8575
|
Posted - 2015.09.20 18:37:11 -
[484] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:PLEX could easily hit $2-billion ISK by year's end.
There is a special circle of Hell reserved for people who use dollar signs to describe ISK amounts.
e: There is an even deeper circle reserved for those who use hyphens inappropriately.
[b]----
CONCORD arrested two n00bs yesterday, one was drinking battery acid, the other was eating fireworks. They charged one and let the other one off.[/b]
|
Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
599
|
Posted - 2015.09.20 18:37:20 -
[485] - Quote
Zihao wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote: You just face-planted.
This is not my face. This is my avatar. Faces cannot be "planted," because they are not plants. You lose literal-man.
Nope, you face-planted.
And now you are getting your alts to like your post... double down on stupid.
Never go full reterd.
Best description of Eve Online and why the community is the way it is
|
Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
8575
|
Posted - 2015.09.20 18:44:51 -
[486] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote: Never go full reterd.
How are those kettles and pots selling today, Mr. Black?
[b]----
CONCORD arrested two n00bs yesterday, one was drinking battery acid, the other was eating fireworks. They charged one and let the other one off.[/b]
|
Zihao
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
104
|
Posted - 2015.09.20 18:44:57 -
[487] - Quote
Confirming Bumblefck is my alt and your friend Slavos is amusing only because we're ********. |
Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
8577
|
Posted - 2015.09.20 18:47:10 -
[488] - Quote
Zihao wrote:Confirming Bumblefck is my alt and your friend Slavos is amusing only because we're ********.
I have little else to do at this point but confirm my alt status.
[b]----
CONCORD arrested two n00bs yesterday, one was drinking battery acid, the other was eating fireworks. They charged one and let the other one off.[/b]
|
Faenir Antollare
The Idiot Kings Get Off My Lawn
394
|
Posted - 2015.09.20 19:25:04 -
[489] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Zihao wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote: PLEX is not a "privilege". Its a commodity that is bought into the universal game world with RLM.
PLEX is not a "commodity," it's a series of bits in memory somewhere on a server bought into the game universe with algorithms. Actually, since we're going to be obnoxiously literal and obtuse to idiom, PLEX is just a bunch of vibrating sub-atomic matter. You just face-planted. Hard. Its clear you have been hurt either on this account or another, and desperately want to strike back anyway you can. But in this instance, you really should re-evaluate what you just said, pick up your teeth and be on your way.
Posting in a.. I "Liked a Salvos post" thread
RiP BooBoo
26/7/1971 - 23/7/2014
My Lady My Love My Life My Wife
|
Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
599
|
Posted - 2015.09.20 19:28:32 -
[490] - Quote
Faenir Antollare wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:Zihao wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote: PLEX is not a "privilege". Its a commodity that is bought into the universal game world with RLM.
PLEX is not a "commodity," it's a series of bits in memory somewhere on a server bought into the game universe with algorithms. Actually, since we're going to be obnoxiously literal and obtuse to idiom, PLEX is just a bunch of vibrating sub-atomic matter. You just face-planted. Hard. Its clear you have been hurt either on this account or another, and desperately want to strike back anyway you can. But in this instance, you really should re-evaluate what you just said, pick up your teeth and be on your way. Posting in a.. I "Liked a Salvos post" thread
I know, made me feel a little dirty too. But right is right.
Best description of Eve Online and why the community is the way it is
|
|
Zihao
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
105
|
Posted - 2015.09.20 20:20:46 -
[491] - Quote
Cars aren't a privilege, they're machines that are built with metal, rubber, and plastic for money.
#feelthebern |
Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
602
|
Posted - 2015.09.20 20:27:10 -
[492] - Quote
Zihao wrote:Cars aren't a privilege, they're machines that are built with metal, rubber, and plastic for money.
#feelthebern
You know what else Cars aren't?!
In Eve Online.
WTF are you babbling on aboutGäó
Best description of Eve Online and why the community is the way it is
|
Zihao
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
112
|
Posted - 2015.09.20 20:46:29 -
[493] - Quote
-Noun- isn't a privilege because it is -literal description of production process-
All non-literal meaning is lost on meGäó
|
Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12397
|
Posted - 2015.09.20 20:49:27 -
[494] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Tam Arai wrote:I live in a country where my salary is nowhere near the level of anyone earning the minimum wage in any western country yet i still subscribe 2 accounts and I have done so for 2 years now. there is no way i could grind the amount necessary to plex both accounts- i have neither the time or the inclination.
plexing your account is a privilege not a right. If you want various accounts, pay for them with irl cash and suddenly the price of plex is not at all important PLEX is not a "privilege". Its a commodity that is bought into the universal game world with RLM. Ingame, it is acquired from them with ingame money earned rightfully from the game environment. There is nothing "privileged" about any of that.
You misunderstood completely what Tam was saying. PLEX is a privilege, not a right. No one owes these complainers a plex, unless they loaned someone a plex and never got paid back lol. Like any luxury commodity , its very easy to live without it, in this case, 50 cents USD a day easy.
|
Hippinse
University of Caille Gallente Federation
89
|
Posted - 2015.09.20 21:02:25 -
[495] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote:Zihao wrote:Cars aren't a privilege, they're machines that are built with metal, rubber, and plastic for money.
#feelthebern You know what else Cars aren't?! In Eve Online. WTF are you babbling on aboutGäó
Ooooh, driving in stations! |
Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
602
|
Posted - 2015.09.20 21:37:21 -
[496] - Quote
Hippinse wrote:Market McSelling Alt wrote:Zihao wrote:Cars aren't a privilege, they're machines that are built with metal, rubber, and plastic for money.
#feelthebern You know what else Cars aren't?! In Eve Online. WTF are you babbling on aboutGäó Ooooh, driving in stations!
See, Content!
Best description of Eve Online and why the community is the way it is
|
Arthur Aihaken
Perkone Caldari State
4655
|
Posted - 2015.09.20 21:54:08 -
[497] - Quote
Bumblefck wrote:There is a special circle of Hell reserved for people who use dollar signs to describe ISK amounts. e: There is an even deeper circle reserved for those who use hyphens inappropriately. 2 billion ISK then. Fairly certain I'm in good company, so no worries.
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
|
Salvos Rhoska
1472
|
Posted - 2015.09.20 23:07:40 -
[498] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:You misunderstood completely what Tam was saying. PLEX is a privilege, not a right. No one owes these complainers a plex,
I did not misunderstand.
PLEX is neither a privilege, nor a right.
THAT is exactly why nobody owes these complainers a PLEX.
It is a purchased commodity. Either you buy it for RLM, or you buy it ingame with isk from those who have done so.
It is a commodity. Not a privilege, nor a right.
If it was a right, everyone would have it. If it was a privilege, only some could have it. It is a commodity, because it is something anyone and everyone can buy, to have.
PvE v PvP
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26149
|
Posted - 2015.09.20 23:14:56 -
[499] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:You misunderstood completely what Tam was saying. PLEX is a privilege, not a right. No one owes these complainers a plex,
I did not misunderstand. PLEX is neither a privilege, nor a right. You're assuming a mutual exclusivity that simply isn't there. PLEX is very much a privilege, same as many other commodities. The two terms are not in opposition.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
Salvos Rhoska
1472
|
Posted - 2015.09.20 23:19:21 -
[500] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:You misunderstood completely what Tam was saying. PLEX is a privilege, not a right. No one owes these complainers a plex,
I did not misunderstand. PLEX is neither a privilege, nor a right. You're assuming a mutual exclusivity that simply isn't there. PLEX is very much a privilege, same as many other commodities. The two terms are not in opposition.
I am assuming nothing, except the established definitions of these terms in leading dictionaries.
If you have enough money, IRL, to buy PLEX, you can be perceived to be privileged in ways that some other individual with less money is not. If you have enough ISK to purchase it ingame, you can be perceived to be privileged in ways that some other individuals with less are not.
Neither of these make PLEX itself a privilege. It merely means you are privileged in your wealth.
PLEX itself is just a commodity which anyone and anyone can buy. It is neither a privilege nor a right. Just a commodity, which if you can afford it, it can be yours.
Owning a Ferrari IRL is not a privilege. A Ferrari itself, is not a privilege. Its just a car. The privilege is vested in the wealth and position of those who can purchase such a car. The luxury items themselves, however, remain merely expensive commodities.
PvE v PvP
|
|
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1518
|
Posted - 2015.09.20 23:27:52 -
[501] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:You misunderstood completely what Tam was saying. PLEX is a privilege, not a right. No one owes these complainers a plex,
I did not misunderstand. PLEX is neither a privilege, nor a right. You're assuming a mutual exclusivity that simply isn't there. PLEX is very much a privilege, same as many other commodities. The two terms are not in opposition.
I would use privilege differently with regard to PLEX.
The following is regardless of what PLEX where originally tended to be.
PLEX have become a way of privileged players with good jobs in US and central Europe who find $20 for a PLEX "pocketmoney" to finance the accounts of players who are unable to work or live in poorer parts of the world.
The main change with the ISK value of PLEX sky rocketing will be a social one, the EVE population will end up more US/UK/Euro focused with individual players more likely to be working or have wealth off parents.
By the way I have no opinion on whether that is good or bad thing, I am just stating an obvious consequence of the ISK/PLEX pricing. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26150
|
Posted - 2015.09.20 23:29:20 -
[502] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:I am assuming nothing You have to be, or you cannot possibly use GÇ£no, it's a commodityGÇ¥ as a way to declare that it is not a privilege.
Quote:except the established definitions of these terms in leading dictionaries. There is nothing in the definitions of commodity or privilege that make them mutually exclusive.
Quote:Neither of these make PLEX itself a privilege. That's exactly what it does. The use of PLEX is a privilege, afforded by means and opportunity to acquire one. End of.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
Aaron
Eternal Frontier
316
|
Posted - 2015.09.20 23:30:27 -
[503] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:You misunderstood completely what Tam was saying. PLEX is a privilege, not a right. No one owes these complainers a plex,
I did not misunderstand. PLEX is neither a privilege, nor a right. You're assuming a mutual exclusivity that simply isn't there. PLEX is very much a privilege, same as many other commodities. The two terms are not in opposition.
I agree plex is not a privilege. Obtaining a plex is linked to how hard and how smart you work to be in a position to afford it. An example of being privileged is say you had a CEO that purchased plex for sale to his members @ 800m, you'd be privileged to be in that corp.
Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26150
|
Posted - 2015.09.20 23:31:20 -
[504] - Quote
Aaron wrote:I agree plex is not a privilege. Obtaining a plex is linked to how hard and how smart you work to be in a position to afford it. GǪand that makes it a privilege.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
Salvos Rhoska
1472
|
Posted - 2015.09.20 23:42:49 -
[505] - Quote
PLEX would constitute a privilege, if only a subset of the community had access to it.
The 10yr Vet station acces for example, (if it ever materialises) constitutes a privilege that only a 10yr account has. The Christmas gifts constituted a privilege, in that only those accounts active at the time received them.
PLEX is not a privilege. It is available to anyone and everyone by exactly the same means.
It is merely a commodity (albeit an expensive one, for many).
PvE v PvP
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26153
|
Posted - 2015.09.20 23:46:20 -
[506] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:PLEX would constitute a privilege, if only a subset of the community had access to it. GǪwhich is exactly the case. That's why it's a privilege. In fact, it's limited in that way twice over, so it's actually two privileges at once.
Quote:PLEX is not a privilege. It is available to anyone and everyone by exactly the same means. PLEX is a privilege since it is exclusively available to the select group of those who have the opportunity and means to acquire one.
I'm not sure if you are just being obtuse or if you are simply not familiar with the very common GÇ£privilegeGÇôrightGÇ¥ idiom. Either way, you're wrong about this one. Just accept it and let it go.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
Primary This Rifter
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
941
|
Posted - 2015.09.20 23:53:35 -
[507] - Quote
How the **** is this conversation relevant to anything? |
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1518
|
Posted - 2015.09.20 23:56:30 -
[508] - Quote
Primary This Rifter wrote:How the **** is this conversation relevant to anything?
It is kinda related to the "just pay a sub as you earn more in an hour than a months sub costs" comments you get all the time from Americans and Central Europeans because in many many parts of the world that is simply not true at all. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26157
|
Posted - 2015.09.20 23:57:24 -
[509] - Quote
Primary This Rifter wrote:How the **** is this conversation relevant to anything? Someone said (quite correctly) that PLEX is a privilege, not a right, as a form of counter-argument to the implied notion that players deserve low PLEX prices.
We're trying to straighten out if people are arguing against this because they feel PLEX is GÇö or at least should be GÇö a right, or if it's because they don't understand the common idiom.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
Salvos Rhoska
1472
|
Posted - 2015.09.20 23:58:27 -
[510] - Quote
Tippia wrote:PLEX is a privilege since it is exclusively available to the select group of those who have the opportunity and means to acquire one.
No. There is no select group who have opportunity or means to acquire one. There is no "selection" aside from the universal cost of purchasing one, which is equal in opportunity and means for all.
If only white males with blond hair past the age of 30 could buy PLEX, that would be a privilege.
An inverse example is that trial accounts cannot train into Mining Barges. This is a privilege reserved for active full accounts, and imparted when they upgrade their accounts.
Tippia wrote:I'm not sure if you are just being obtuse or if you are simply not familiar with the very common GÇ£privilegeGÇôrightGÇ¥-opposites idiom. Either way, you're wrong about this one. Just accept it and let it go. I'm afraid it is you who is wrong this time.
You are applying moral imperatives and connotations to the term "privilege" which it does not actually carry.
It is not a privilege to own a gold watch, or to buy one. It is not a privilege to own a Ferrari, or to buy one. Expensive, yes. A luxury commodity, yes. A privilege, no.
PvE v PvP
|
|
Zihao
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
113
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 00:02:53 -
[511] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote: No. There is no select group who have opportunity or means to acquire one.
60% of world's population still won't have Internet by the end of 2014
Check you first-world privilege mate. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26157
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 00:04:40 -
[512] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:No. There is no select group who have opportunity or means to acquire one. Yes there is. See: this entire thread. There are those who can afford PLEX (in-game or out of game) and those who can't.
Quote:There is no "selection" Irrelevant. It's still a select group.
select |s+¬-êl+¢kt| adjective GÇó (of a place or group of people) only used by or consisting of a wealthy or sophisticated elite; exclusive: the opera was seen by a small and highly select audience.
Quote:I'm afraid its you who is wrong this time. You are applying moral imperatives and connotations to the term "privilege" which it does not actually carry. Nope, nope, and nope. In that order. I'm using the term as it is probably most commonly used, without any morals, imperatives, or unusual connotations.
The simple fact remains: PLEX is a privilege, afforded only to the select few who have the means and opportunity to acquire one. Being a commodity does not in any way sit in opposition to this.
Your argument is nonsensical. Your line of reasoning is of the form: - This is orange juice, not lemon juice. - No, it's a liquid.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
Cancel Align NOW
Maas Industries
592
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 00:06:40 -
[513] - Quote
It is as relevant as any GD discussion.
I'm right. Proposition A.
No am. Article 3.7-3.8 negate proposition A. Proposition B is better.
No you're wrong. Line 36 of clause 7b in Article 3.9 negates 3.7-3.8 so proposition A still stands.
Ahhh I'm correct. Clause 8f of Article 4.9 is a modern usage than 3.9
Wrong wrong wrong. You have misread article 3.8
Umm I'm always right. You need to re read line 35-37 while taking Proposition B in context.
I looked it up in 3 dictionaries, I'm right.
No I am it's Colonel Mustard.
|
Salvos Rhoska
1472
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 00:08:42 -
[514] - Quote
PLEX is available to everyone, and anyone in EVE and outside of it, by exactly the same means.
No privilege is necessary or required. All you need is money, or isk.
If you are unable to afford PLEX, that does not mean you are "under privileged", or lacking a privilege which those who can afford it have.
It merely means you do not have as much money to spend (or will to do so), ingame or without it, to purchase this commodity.
Its nonsense and quite a perversion of the severe concept of "privilege" for which there are serious historical examples, to walk around in life thinking you are "under privileged" because you can't afford a gold watch or a Ferrari.
PvE v PvP
|
Cancel Align NOW
Maas Industries
592
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 00:10:02 -
[515] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:PLEX is available to everyone, and anyone in EVE and outside of it, by exactly the same means.
No privilege is necessary or required. All you need is money, or isk.
If you are unable to afford PLEX, that does not mean you are "under privileged", or lacking a privilege which those who can afford it have.
It merely means you do not have as much money to spend (or will to do so), ingame or without it, to purchase this commodity.
Money is a privilege not a right. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26157
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 00:11:29 -
[516] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:PLEX is available to everyone Nope. If it were, this thread wouldn't exist.
Quote:All you need is money, or isk. GǪwhich makes it a privilege.
Quote:If you are unable to afford PLEX, that does not mean you are "under privileged", or lacking a privilege which those who can afford it have. That's pretty much exactly what it means: you are not part of the exclusive group that can afford them.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
Primary This Rifter
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
941
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 00:11:41 -
[517] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Primary This Rifter wrote:How the **** is this conversation relevant to anything? Someone said (quite correctly) that PLEX is a privilege, not a right, as a form of counter-argument to the implied notion that players deserve low PLEX prices. We're trying to straighten out if people are arguing against this because they feel PLEX is GÇö or at least should be GÇö a right, or if it's because they don't understand the common idiom. Whether or not players deserve lower plex prices is a red herring. The issue is whether high plex prices are hurting subs, and they might be. |
Salvos Rhoska
1472
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 00:13:27 -
[518] - Quote
Cancel Align NOW wrote:Money is a privilege not a right.
Money is certainly not a right. I agree.
How is money a privilege?
If you think that way, why do you not instead then pay the subs of the people whining here, as you are so "privileged"?
PvE v PvP
|
Salvos Rhoska
1472
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 00:14:28 -
[519] - Quote
Is it a privilege to buy and own a gold watch?
PvE v PvP
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26157
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 00:14:28 -
[520] - Quote
Primary This Rifter wrote:Whether or not players deserve lower plex prices is a red herring. The issue is whether high plex prices are hurting subs, and they might be. Oh, absolutely, but you asked for the relevance, and that's how this tangent connects to that overarching question.
It might not score highly on the relevance scale, but it is not completely off topic either.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
|
Aaron
Eternal Frontier
316
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 00:20:19 -
[521] - Quote
Eyjolfur "Eyjo" Gu+¦mundsson wrote:
The economy that supports EVE is all founded on in-game currency InterStellar Kredit (ISK) and currency-like Pilot License Extensions (PLEXes); PLEXes can be purchased through real-life currency as well. ThatGÇÖs where the economist Gu+¦mundsson comes in. Alongside standard research scientist fare such as writing internal reports, he has to occasionally intervene to prevent inflation and unintended market consequences. Because PLEXes are tangentially related to the actual, real-life global economy, he helps CCP build protocols for when real life intrudes into the virtual game economy.
I have quoted the Economist hired by CCP to advise them. In this paragraph they imply that real life intrudes into the Eve economy that could result in inflation.
Plex is the bridge between RL cash and isk, to say that RL cost of plex has no effect on in game isk price of plex my be inaccurate.
Here's the link to the full article Full Article
Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1584
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 00:21:08 -
[522] - Quote
Quote:PLEX is available to everyone, and anyone in EVE and outside of it, by exactly the same means.
No privilege is necessary or required. All you need is money, or isk.
If you are unable to afford PLEX, that does not mean you are "under privileged", or lacking a privilege which those who can afford it have.
It merely means you do not have as much money to spend (or will to do so), ingame or without it, to purchase this commodity.
Its nonsense and quite a perversion of the severe concept of "privilege" for which there are serious historical examples, to walk around in life thinking you are "under privileged" because you can't afford a gold watch or a Ferrari.
That seems contradictory. If the item has a fixed cost or method of being obtained it isn't available to those who can't pay that cost. It therefore isn't available to everyone.
If I don't have the ability to pay the necessary cost it very much means I can't have the item. That excludes me from an ability, through lack of wealth, that others have. That someone doesn't have as much to spend doesn't negate the distinction, it IS the distinction.
Thus PLEX (and pretty much everything else at some level) becomes a privilege of wealth. |
Zihao
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
113
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 00:24:16 -
[523] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:If you think that way, why do you not instead then pay the subs of the people whining here, as you are so "privileged"?
What about the acknowledgement of privileged obligates him to do anything like that? |
Salvos Rhoska
1472
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 00:26:39 -
[524] - Quote
Zihao wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:If you think that way, why do you not instead then pay the subs of the people whining here, as you are so "privileged"? What about the acknowledgement of privileged obligates him to do anything like that?
What in my statement claims he is obligated?
You are making a false assumption.
The question simply asks why he does not do so.
PvE v PvP
|
Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
602
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 00:28:12 -
[525] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Quote:PLEX is available to everyone, and anyone in EVE and outside of it, by exactly the same means.
No privilege is necessary or required. All you need is money, or isk.
If you are unable to afford PLEX, that does not mean you are "under privileged", or lacking a privilege which those who can afford it have.
It merely means you do not have as much money to spend (or will to do so), ingame or without it, to purchase this commodity.
Its nonsense and quite a perversion of the severe concept of "privilege" for which there are serious historical examples, to walk around in life thinking you are "under privileged" because you can't afford a gold watch or a Ferrari. That seems contradictory. If the item has a fixed cost or method of being obtained it isn't available to those who can't pay that cost. It therefore isn't available to everyone. If I don't have the ability to pay the necessary cost it very much means I can't have the item. That excludes me from an ability, through lack of wealth, that others have. That someone doesn't have as much to spend doesn't negate the distinction, it IS the distinction. Thus PLEX (and pretty much everything else at some level) becomes a privilege of wealth.
Privilege of wealth, in-game or real-life.
Now... can we care less about its class definition and care more about the effect of its in-game price on real-life players?
Best description of Eve Online and why the community is the way it is
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26158
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 00:28:23 -
[526] - Quote
Aaron wrote:Plex is the bridge between RL cash and isk, to say that RL cost of plex has no effect on in game isk price of plex my be inaccurate. It is a bridge between the virtual and RL economies. There are more, such as subscriptions and game activity as a function of available free time.
PLEX, in particular, is almost entirely economy-neutral. In the most direct sense, it's deflationary since it removes ISK from the system with every trade, but it can also indirectly alter the velocity of money.
Oh, and GÇ£may beGÇ¥ Gëá GÇ£isGÇ¥.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
602
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 00:28:57 -
[527] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Zihao wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:If you think that way, why do you not instead then pay the subs of the people whining here, as you are so "privileged"? What about the acknowledgement of privileged obligates him to do anything like that? What in my statement claims he is obligated? You are making a false assumption. The question simply asks why he does not do so.
Because he is not a philanthropist and advocating philanthropy pisses me off.
Best description of Eve Online and why the community is the way it is
|
Zihao
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
113
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 00:29:41 -
[528] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:The question simply asks why he does not do so.
OK, so what about acknowledging privilege suggests he would do so? |
Salvos Rhoska
1472
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 00:31:27 -
[529] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:How is money a privilege? It is only available to a select group that has the means and opportunities to acquire it. Or, more trivially: it is a privilege by virtue of not being a right.
All services and commodities in this world require payment.
That some people cannot afford these services or commodities (or do not wish to purchase them) is not a matter of privilege or right.
It is merely a matter of exchanging one value for another in common equity.
If only white males past the age of 30 were allowed to buy PLEX, that would be a privilege.
Tippia wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:Is it a privilege to buy and own a gold watch? Of course. It satisfies all the necessary criteria. In fact, it even satisfies a slightly different meaning of the word GÇö that of representing a special honour GÇö so it's a privilege in two different ways at once.
What "special honor"? Again with the irrelevant moral connotations.
There is no privilege in the act of buying and owning a commodity. If I buy and own a stack of toilet paper, or pencils, its not a matter of privilege. If I collect 100 pinecones from the forest, I am not privileged. If I stack mud really high, or build a house out of it, I am not privileged.
PvE v PvP
|
Cancel Align NOW
Maas Industries
592
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 00:31:38 -
[530] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Cancel Align NOW wrote:Money is a privilege not a right. Money is certainly not a right. I agree. How is money a privilege? If you think that way, why do you not instead then pay the subs of the people whining here, as you are so "privileged"?
Because I have the right to use my privileges as I see fit.
|
|
Salvos Rhoska
1472
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 00:32:15 -
[531] - Quote
Zihao wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:The question simply asks why he does not do so. OK, so what about acknowledging privilege suggests he would do so? I asked why he would not do so.
The question is quite specific, if you would simply read it instead of forcing imaginary implications upon it.
PvE v PvP
|
Salvos Rhoska
1472
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 00:37:42 -
[532] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:That seems contradictory. If the item has a fixed cost or method of being obtained it isn't available to those who can't pay that cost. It therefore isn't available to everyone. It is available to everyone. Whether they can (or will) pay for it, does not change the availability of this commodity.
I don't have the money to buy a 100ft yacht and a private jet.
Never would it occur to me to consider myself as lacking in privilege because I cannot buy things beyond my means.
PvE v PvP
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26159
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 00:38:24 -
[533] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:All services and commodities in this world require payment. GǪand guess what that means?
Quote:That some people cannot afford these services or commodities (or do not wish to purchase them) is not a matter of privilege or right. Incorrect. It is entirely a matter of privilege, except in the cases when access to a particular service or commodity is deemed a right and therefore is subsidised to ensure universal access.
Quote:What "special honor"? Again with the irrelevant moral connotations. You know that gold watches are often rewarded as a mark of long and distinguished service, yes? It's not irrelevant, and it has nothing to do with moral. It's just you not being familiar with the meaning of the word, or with the symbolism of gold watches.
Quote:There is no privilege in the act of buying and owning a commodity. Of course there is, as long as buying and owning them is exclusively available to a particular group; as long as purchase and ownership is not a right.
Again. The something is either a privilege or a right. This is the dichotomy we're talking about. Being a commodity does not in any way, shape, or form alter this dichotomy. Any given commodity will be placed in one of those two, mutually exclusive categories.
If it is not a right, it is a privilege. If it is not a privilege, it is a right. Whether or not a commodity is a privilege or a right does not depend on its status as a commodity because that is an entirely separate and unrelated axis of categorisation.
Quote:Whether they can (or will) pay for it, does not change the availability of this commodity. Yes it does. If you cannot pay for it, it is not available to you.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
Zihao
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
114
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 00:40:56 -
[534] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:imaginary implications
That would be a very indirect way of describing idiom and common vernacular, yes. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1585
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 00:43:10 -
[535] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:That seems contradictory. If the item has a fixed cost or method of being obtained it isn't available to those who can't pay that cost. It therefore isn't available to everyone. It is available to everyone. Whether they can (or will) pay for it, does not change the availability of this commodity. But it does. If I cannot or will not pay the required price I cannot have the commodity. It is unavailable to me. That I am granted the ability to access the purchase medium for the item is not the same as being able to have the item.
In the end the ability for only white males to purchase it and the commodity being beyond my ability to afford but otherwise available both prevent me from having the item. There is no difference in the end effect of these 2 distinctions. |
Zihao
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
114
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 00:45:28 -
[536] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote: If only white males past the age of 30 were allowed to buy PLEX, that would be a privilege.
The english word for that is "racist." |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3361
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 00:46:48 -
[537] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Aaron wrote:I think that Eve has become a capitalist society, CCP want too much for plex lets face it, in the UK a plex is -ú16.99 which is -ú7.00 more than the monthly sub which has prompted the plex sellers to sell at a high price.
Plex prices do not affect me because I sub my 2 accounts. All I have done is read what most of the plex buyers are saying and I have come to the conclusion that we will see numbers drop yet again. CCP should listen to the people who plex their account, it does seem as if they are being ignored.
We will see lots of people cancel their 2nd and 3rd accounts because they are no longer able to generate much profit for the player, I get that people can diversify and go into other areas of the game like FW, WH etc.
Has CCP made any statement about revising the real life cost of plex?
I ask this because I can see this game being ruined, Level with me here, why is the RL plex price an extra 70% on top of the sub price? Agreed; that price differential is indefensible. CCP urgently need to get more people logging in to keep the game healthy, and dropping the RL price of PLEX to a similar, albeit slightly higher, level than a 1 month sub would be a big step towards that.
This would likely also help the in game price. If the RL price dropped more players might buy PLEX for sale in game. Eventually a new equilibrium would be reached, but the point is the in game price would drop as well.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3361
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 00:52:37 -
[538] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Sweet. I'll cash out once it hits 1.2 bil. I got greedy last time and it collapsed before I could sell off.
Have you sold?
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Salvos Rhoska
1472
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 00:53:47 -
[539] - Quote
Apparently paying for a service or a commodity is considered a "privilege". Ergo, apparently getting paid for your service and work, is also a "privilege".
Apparently the things that you cannot afford are "not available". They just magically disappear because you aren't paying for them.
I'm astounded and I fold out. Have it your way. I'll have it mine.
PvE v PvP
|
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1518
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 00:59:39 -
[540] - Quote
If the price of a PLEX or EVE SUB is beyond the means of anyone living on the Island of Outer Greater Birdania that is no different to them being banned from using it. Its a semantic argument relying on dictionary definitions instead of reality.
You get these examples all the time. In my country a law was introduced that puts very onerous punishment on a particular type of petty crimes that is only committed by teenagers of a particular racial minority. The laws specifically applied to children and give a jail sentence for a misdemeanor that adults would have received a minor fine for committing.
Despite the law as written applying equally to all races it actually was targeting a particular minority group and only effected them. The UN regards the argument that the laws apply equally to all as specious and irrelevant to the actual situation.
This situation is similar. |
|
Zihao
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
117
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 01:00:15 -
[541] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote: Apparently the things that you cannot afford are "not available". They just magically disappear because you aren't paying for them.
So when amazon.com has an item listed as "currently unavailable," your conclusion would be that no such item exists in the world at that moment in time? |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26161
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 01:00:19 -
[542] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Apparently paying for a service or a commodity is considered a "privilege". Correct. If it was a right, you wouldn't have to pay for it.
Quote:Ergo, apparently getting paid for your service and work, is also a "privilege". Does not follow.
Quote:Apparently the things that you cannot afford are "not available". Correct.
Quote:They just magically disappear because you aren't paying for them. Does not follow. They just aren't available to you. There's a difference. Just because you'll die if you try to free-dive to the bottom of the Marina Trench does not mean the bottom has ceased to exist GÇö it just means the bottom is not available to you.
Quote:Have it your way. I'll have it mine. Thank you. I prefer to stay consistent with language and reality, even if you do not.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1588
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 01:00:48 -
[543] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Apparently the things that you cannot afford are "not available". They just magically disappear because you aren't paying for them. What does this even mean? Even your own racial distinction for privilege doesn't just have a commodity "magically disappear" for those who don't have it. Do you think that if a law was passed saying only white people could use boats I'd lose the ability to see boats? Is that what you think the status of a privilege does? |
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1518
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 01:03:01 -
[544] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:
This would likely also help the in game price. If the RL price dropped more players might buy PLEX for sale in game. Eventually a new equilibrium would be reached, but the point is the in game price would drop as well.
Dropping PLEX prices is not going to help.
If the actual issue is some people (incapacitated and cannot work, live in a very poor country with bad exchange rate to US Dollar) cannot afford to play the real solution is drop the price of subs not the price of PLEX. |
Zihao
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
117
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 01:06:37 -
[545] - Quote
Hasikan Miallok wrote:The UN regards the argument that the laws apply equally to all as specious and irrelevant to the actual situation.
Never fear world-citizen. The honorable Saudis have been put in charge of the UN council on human rights. I am confident they will get to the bottom of this injustice.
Hasikan Miallok wrote: Dropping PLEX prices is not going to help.
If the actual issue is some people (incapacitated and cannot work, live in a very poor country with bad exchange rate to US Dollar) cannot afford to play the real solution is drop the price of subs not the price of PLEX.
That implies CCP can afford to run their servers and pay their employees with a reduced income. I don't know if they can or cannot do so, but I certainly wouldn't take that position for granted. |
Salvos Rhoska
1472
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 01:10:56 -
[546] - Quote
I will not take part in discussion that posits paying for a service/commodity constitutes a "privilege".
This extent of "check your privilege" is going too far for me and against my own ethics.
Discuss it with each other if you wish, Im out.
PvE v PvP
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3362
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 01:11:12 -
[547] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:In economic theory there is something called Giffen good (good, as in "goods and services"). These are goods which have a reversed supply-demand curve. That is, an increase in price results in a decrease in supply.
Absolutely and totally wrong. In economic theory a Giffen good is a good where the demand/price relationship reverses. That is normally as the price increases for a good the quantity demanded decreases (ceterius paribus).
Further, to date, there has been no definitive example of a Giffen good.
We do not need to invoke Giffen goods to explain PLEX prices. Not at all. Nor do we need to invoke maniuplation, speculation or any other stupid ideas.
Here is a story that can explain the price of PLEX with nothing other than simple supply and demand analysis.
We have fewer players buying PLEX to sell in game it leads to this picture. Basically, the demand schedule shifts inwards resulting in a lower number of PLEX (Q2 < Q3).
Then the effect in game is depicted in this picture. Note that we get a lower quantity and a higher price as the supply schedule shifts inwards. Wow!!! Must be speculation or a clever plan of the underpants gnomes.
Then we have skins in game which you can obtain with PLEX, which leads to this picture. In this case, the demand schedule has shifted outwards and it increases both the price and the quantity demanded.
To be clear here...the price,quantity pairs go from (P1,Q1) to (P2,Q2) to (P3,Q3).
Note that the price of PLEX in the first graph is in U.S. dollars whereas in the second and third graphs the price is in ISK.
Remember, Ockham's razor....do not go for the complicated story when the simple story is more than sufficient
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1518
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 01:13:14 -
[548] - Quote
Zihao wrote:
That implies CCP can afford to run their servers and pay their employees with a reduced income. I don't know if they can or cannot do so, but I certainly wouldn't take that position for granted.
Unless the laffer curve applies to EVE subs in which case a reduced sub may increase income :D
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3362
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 01:14:46 -
[549] - Quote
Hasikan Miallok wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:
This would likely also help the in game price. If the RL price dropped more players might buy PLEX for sale in game. Eventually a new equilibrium would be reached, but the point is the in game price would drop as well.
Dropping PLEX prices is not going to help. If the actual issue is some people (incapacitated and cannot work, live in a very poor country with bad exchange rate to US Dollar) cannot afford to play the real solution is drop the price of subs not the price of PLEX.
Whatever. Not my problem. I don't care who can or cannot pay the game or where they live or whatever. That is their problem. Or to be more blunt, I don't give a f**king ****. Trying to deal with RL inequality, exchange rates, and that sort of stuff via game subscription prices is just mental masturbation by dolts.
My point still stands, if CCP decrease the RL price of PLEX the in-game price will then decrease.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3362
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 01:15:33 -
[550] - Quote
Hasikan Miallok wrote:Zihao wrote:
That implies CCP can afford to run their servers and pay their employees with a reduced income. I don't know if they can or cannot do so, but I certainly wouldn't take that position for granted.
Unless the laffer curve applies to EVE subs in which case a reduced sub may increase income :D
Do you even know what the Laffer curve applies too? Hint: Not MMO prices.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1588
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 01:18:06 -
[551] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:My point still stands, if CCP decrease the RL price of PLEX the in-game price will then decrease. To what degree? How much compulsion does $5 create to buy PLEX for those that aren't buying now? |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3363
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 01:21:46 -
[552] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:My point still stands, if CCP decrease the RL price of PLEX the in-game price will then decrease. To what degree? How much compulsion does $5 create to buy PLEX for those that aren't buying now?
IDK, but if the price went from $19.95 to 14.95 and given the current in-game price of PLEX it would likely lead to higher purchases.
After all the implicit exchange rate would go from around 61.6 million ISK/dollar to 82.2 million IKS/dollar or about a 33% increase. If we had some sort of estimate of the price elasticity of demand for PLEX we could to the algebra.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1588
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 01:43:01 -
[553] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:My point still stands, if CCP decrease the RL price of PLEX the in-game price will then decrease. To what degree? How much compulsion does $5 create to buy PLEX for those that aren't buying now? IDK, but if the price went from $19.95 to 14.95 and given the current in-game price of PLEX it would likely lead to higher purchases. After all the implicit exchange rate would go from around 61.6 million ISK/dollar to 82.2 million IKS/dollar or about a 33% increase. If we had some sort of estimate of the price elasticity of demand for PLEX we could do the algebra. Edit: For example, if the price elasticity of demand is -1 and the price changes by -27.6% (i.e. the price of PLEX went from $19.95 to $14.95) then the quantity would increase by 27.6%. What effect would that have in game? Well if the in game price elasticity of demand is also -1 then an increase in quantity by 27.6% would decrease the price by 27.6%. Or the price of PLEX would drop to about 890 million ISK. But would that drive more sales without increasing the need for isk in game? I'd be worried that the end effect is just less money in CCP's pockets as the actual need for isk isn't changed, only the ability to get that same isk cheaper.
Unless the change is sufficient to bring in new buyers to offset this I'm not sure the desired effect would occur.
Or is this being looked at as an individually budgeted amount per PLEX buyer that would maintain regardless of the number of PLEX obtained/$? |
Aaron
Eternal Frontier
316
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 01:55:00 -
[554] - Quote
Hasikan Miallok wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:
This would likely also help the in game price. If the RL price dropped more players might buy PLEX for sale in game. Eventually a new equilibrium would be reached, but the point is the in game price would drop as well.
Dropping PLEX prices is not going to help. If the actual issue is some people (incapacitated and cannot work, live in a very poor country with bad exchange rate to US Dollar) cannot afford to play the real solution is drop the price of subs not the price of PLEX.
Ok, let us analyse what happens in real life. When everyone stops spending retail is the first to be affected we see businesses go under and thousands of jobs lost. In order to repair the economy so that people start spending again governments flood the economy with money in the hope that people will give it to these retail outlets so that they can provide jobs and not cease trading and hire staff so that the government can secure their employment taxes.
A similar thing is happennig in Eve, people are leaving because they find it difficult to plex 1 account. Reducing the RL cost of plex would have an effect because the plex trader will be able to buy more plex and put it on the market which would force the next man to match the lower price and so on.
So generally I am saying if plex is cheaper in the real world more of it will be brought, if theres more of it that generally means cheaper isk prices, and if the plex is cheaper in game we will have the 5 account guy back, and the corp that helps people boost standings can make a comeback resulting in more people in game and better prospects for the economy.
I feel strongly that this is an accurate assessment.
Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3364
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 01:59:22 -
[555] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:My point still stands, if CCP decrease the RL price of PLEX the in-game price will then decrease. To what degree? How much compulsion does $5 create to buy PLEX for those that aren't buying now? IDK, but if the price went from $19.95 to 14.95 and given the current in-game price of PLEX it would likely lead to higher purchases. After all the implicit exchange rate would go from around 61.6 million ISK/dollar to 82.2 million IKS/dollar or about a 33% increase. If we had some sort of estimate of the price elasticity of demand for PLEX we could do the algebra. Edit: For example, if the price elasticity of demand is -1 and the price changes by -27.6% (i.e. the price of PLEX went from $19.95 to $14.95) then the quantity would increase by 27.6%. What effect would that have in game? Well if the in game price elasticity of demand is also -1 then an increase in quantity by 27.6% would decrease the price by 27.6%. Or the price of PLEX would drop to about 890 million ISK. But would that drive more sales without increasing the need for isk in game? I'd be worried that the end effect is just less money in CCP's pockets as the actual need for isk isn't changed, only the ability to get that same isk cheaper. Unless the change is sufficient to bring in new buyers to offset this I'm not sure the desired effect would occur. Or is this being looked at as an individually budgeted amount per PLEX buyer that would maintain regardless of the number of PLEX obtained/$?
There are alot of variables here so it is hard to say. For example, moving the price of PLEX from 19.95 to 14.95 would reduce the amount of money flowing into CCPs wallet IF the amount of PLEX bought does not increase. However, for that to happen we'd need a price elasticity to be zero. That is if the number of PLEX bought is X and the price changes and X is still bought...then decreasing the price wont change the in-game price either. But for CCP they should jack up the RL price, make it $100/PLEX and quintuple their revenues from PLEX. If you think that is not likely, then that says the price elasticity is probably not zero.
Basically, it all depends on the price elasticity. Is demand for PELX (in the RL market) inelastic or elastic? If it is elastic, the the price elasticity is somewhere in the range of (-1,-infinity). If it is -2, for example, and the price were reduced 15% then there would be a 30% increase in the quantity purchased. Since the increase in the amount purchased, exceeds the price decrease CCP would see a net gain. If the in-game price elasticity is say -1 then we'd see a 30% decrease in the in-game price.
But the only people who have the data on this is CCP and only they can say for sure. And price elasticity studies are not all that easy due to the issue of simultaneity in the data. You want to identify the demand curve which usually entails finding a variable to shift the supply curve which is problematic as CCP is a monopolist when it comes to PLEX--i.e. they have no supply curve for PLEX.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3364
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 02:04:31 -
[556] - Quote
Aaron wrote:Hasikan Miallok wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:
This would likely also help the in game price. If the RL price dropped more players might buy PLEX for sale in game. Eventually a new equilibrium would be reached, but the point is the in game price would drop as well.
Dropping PLEX prices is not going to help. If the actual issue is some people (incapacitated and cannot work, live in a very poor country with bad exchange rate to US Dollar) cannot afford to play the real solution is drop the price of subs not the price of PLEX. Ok, let us analyse what happens in real life. When everyone stops spending retail is the first to be affected we see businesses go under and thousands of jobs lost. In order to repair the economy so that people start spending again governments flood the economy with money in the hope that people will give it to these retail outlets so that they can provide jobs and not cease trading and hire staff so that the government can secure their employment taxes. A similar thing is happennig in Eve, people are leaving because they find it difficult to plex 1 account. Reducing the RL cost of plex would have an effect because the plex trader will be able to buy more plex and put it on the market which would force the next man to match the lower price and so on. So generally I am saying if plex is cheaper in the real world more of it will be brought, if theres more of it that generally means cheaper isk prices, and if the plex is cheaper in game we will have the 5 account guy back, and the corp that helps people boost standings can make a comeback resulting in more people in game and better prospects for the economy. I feel strongly that this is an accurate assessment.
If you are trying to PLEX an account and you are finding that more and more of your time is needed to do that...then perhaps it is time to stop PLEXing and either switch over to RL money or if you cannot do that, then stop playing. The exchange rate between RL money and PLEX suggests that people are working for an implicity wage rate that is very, very low.
Dropping the RL price of PLEX will have a one time effect on the price of PLEX as well. See my previous posts on the price elasticities. For example, if the price elasticities both for the RL marke and in game are 1, we'd see PLEX prices in game drop to about 890 million ISK. However, that would not mean the price would have to stay there.
Further, if the price elasticity for PLEX in the RL market is inelastic then dropping the price is basically an income transfer from CCP to people who want to play the game, but do not want to pay with RL money. That probably is not a viable long term strategy either.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1588
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 02:04:59 -
[557] - Quote
Aaron wrote:Hasikan Miallok wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:
This would likely also help the in game price. If the RL price dropped more players might buy PLEX for sale in game. Eventually a new equilibrium would be reached, but the point is the in game price would drop as well.
Dropping PLEX prices is not going to help. If the actual issue is some people (incapacitated and cannot work, live in a very poor country with bad exchange rate to US Dollar) cannot afford to play the real solution is drop the price of subs not the price of PLEX. Ok, let us analyse what happens in real life. When everyone stops spending retail is the first to be affected we see businesses go under and thousands of jobs lost. In order to repair the economy so that people start spending again governments flood the economy with money in the hope that people will give it to these retail outlets so that they can provide jobs and not cease trading and hire staff so that the government can secure their employment taxes. A similar thing is happennig in Eve, people are leaving because they find it difficult to plex 1 account. Reducing the RL cost of plex would have an effect because the plex trader will be able to buy more plex and put it on the market which would force the next man to match the lower price and so on. So generally I am saying if plex is cheaper in the real world more of it will be brought, if theres more of it that generally means cheaper isk prices, and if the plex is cheaper in game we will have the 5 account guy back, and the corp that helps people boost standings can make a comeback resulting in more people in game and better prospects for the economy. I feel strongly that this is an accurate assessment. There is a missing link in the logic for me. Why would PLEX buyers be putting more on the market? PLEX prices are high, so they need less PLEX to sell to reach any particular isk goal they have. If there is no impetus driving the need for more isk for people buying PLEX from CCP, even if the price is dropped, would they consistently buy more?
The out of game logic could work for causing those not buying PLEX already to reconsider as the comparison of time to earn isk in game vs cost of PLEX further continues to tilt in favor of PLEX, but at the same time the fact that that's not exactly working as desired is part of the reason for the current in game prices I'd imagine. |
Zihao
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
117
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 02:06:35 -
[558] - Quote
Aaron wrote: Ok, let us analyse what happens in real life. When everyone stops spending retail is the first to be affected we see businesses go under and thousands of jobs lost. In order to repair the economy so that people start spending again governments flood the economy with money in the hope that people will give it to these retail outlets so that they can provide jobs and not cease trading and hire staff so that the government can secure their employment taxes.
You do realize CCP can't deficit spend in perpetuity like a government, right? |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3365
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 02:10:33 -
[559] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Aaron wrote:Hasikan Miallok wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:
This would likely also help the in game price. If the RL price dropped more players might buy PLEX for sale in game. Eventually a new equilibrium would be reached, but the point is the in game price would drop as well.
Dropping PLEX prices is not going to help. If the actual issue is some people (incapacitated and cannot work, live in a very poor country with bad exchange rate to US Dollar) cannot afford to play the real solution is drop the price of subs not the price of PLEX. Ok, let us analyse what happens in real life. When everyone stops spending retail is the first to be affected we see businesses go under and thousands of jobs lost. In order to repair the economy so that people start spending again governments flood the economy with money in the hope that people will give it to these retail outlets so that they can provide jobs and not cease trading and hire staff so that the government can secure their employment taxes. A similar thing is happennig in Eve, people are leaving because they find it difficult to plex 1 account. Reducing the RL cost of plex would have an effect because the plex trader will be able to buy more plex and put it on the market which would force the next man to match the lower price and so on. So generally I am saying if plex is cheaper in the real world more of it will be brought, if theres more of it that generally means cheaper isk prices, and if the plex is cheaper in game we will have the 5 account guy back, and the corp that helps people boost standings can make a comeback resulting in more people in game and better prospects for the economy. I feel strongly that this is an accurate assessment. There is a missing link in the logic for me. Why would PLEX buyers be putting more on the market? PLEX prices are high, so they need less PLEX to sell to reach any particular isk goal they have. If there is no impetus driving the need for more isk for people buying PLEX from CCP, even if the price is dropped, would they consistently buy more? The out of game logic could work for causing those not buying PLEX already to reconsider as the comparison of time to earn isk in game vs cost of PLEX further continues to tilt in favor of PLEX, but at the same time the fact that that's not exactly working as desired is part of the reason for the current in game prices I'd imagine.
You are assuming that there is some sort of decreasing return to having more ISK. If I can take $20 and get 1 billion ISK now, and tomorrow I can take the same $20 and get 2 billion ISK...I'd only spend $10? I was willing to part with $20 and get 1 billion. If 2 billion is even better...WTF, I'll still part with $20 and take the 2 billion.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Aaron
Eternal Frontier
316
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 02:13:09 -
[560] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:My point still stands, if CCP decrease the RL price of PLEX the in-game price will then decrease. To what degree? How much compulsion does $5 create to buy PLEX for those that aren't buying now? IDK, but if the price went from $19.95 to 14.95 and given the current in-game price of PLEX it would likely lead to higher purchases. After all the implicit exchange rate would go from around 61.6 million ISK/dollar to 82.2 million IKS/dollar or about a 33% increase. If we had some sort of estimate of the price elasticity of demand for PLEX we could do the algebra. Edit: For example, if the price elasticity of demand is -1 and the price changes by -27.6% (i.e. the price of PLEX went from $19.95 to $14.95) then the quantity would increase by 27.6%. What effect would that have in game? Well if the in game price elasticity of demand is also -1 then an increase in quantity by 27.6% would decrease the price by 27.6%. Or the price of PLEX would drop to about 890 million ISK. But would that drive more sales without increasing the need for isk in game? I'd be worried that the end effect is just less money in CCP's pockets as the actual need for isk isn't changed, only the ability to get that same isk cheaper. Unless the change is sufficient to bring in new buyers to offset this I'm not sure the desired effect would occur. Or is this being looked at as an individually budgeted amount per PLEX buyer that would maintain regardless of the number of PLEX obtained/$? There are alot of variables here so it is hard to say. For example, moving the price of PLEX from 19.95 to 14.95 would reduce the amount of money flowing into CCPs wallet IF the amount of PLEX bought does not increase.
Also account for the fact that if the in game price for plex is lowered for any reason then you'd get more people buying so ecventualy CCP would go back to making the same money.
From my perspective if plex was -ú9.99, the plex trader dudes would buy 2 plex for -ú19.98, sell in game for 760m ( -ú1.00 = 76m isk) then I believe 1000's more would buy plex for the use of game time and CCP would end up with a similar income because of increased numbers.
CCP need to take less from more people rather than more from less people. If they can get into a position to do this they have won.
Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
|
|
Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12399
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 02:26:07 -
[561] - Quote
Hasikan Miallok wrote:Primary This Rifter wrote:How the **** is this conversation relevant to anything? It is kinda related to the "just pay a sub as you earn more in an hour than a months sub costs" comments you get all the time from Americans and Central Europeans because in many many parts of the world that is simply not true at all.
If you live in a country with $15 usd is a lot of money , EVE is the least of your problems. No one owes people who live in crappy countries access to a video game.
All of which is moot, the VAST majority of EVE players live in countries where $15 usd is chump change, and most people who play thi game spend more than 15 bucks a month on all manner of bullshit. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1588
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 02:29:37 -
[562] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:You are assuming that there is some sort of decreasing return to having more ISK. If I can take $20 and get 1 billion ISK now, and tomorrow I can take the same $20 and get 2 billion ISK...I'd only spend $10? I was willing to part with $20 and get 1 billion. If 2 billion is even better...WTF, I'll still part with $20 and take the 2 billion. You are correct, I am making that assumption, but I don't believe it's being done unreasonably. It's a question of how PLEX are being used by those that buy them from CCP. Are they doing so with a particular in game isk goal in mind or are they dictated purely by IRL budget?
If the latter than a price change creates a strong differentiation, if the former than the primary determinant for PLEX bought is isk need/in gamePLEX price. I tend to think it's the latter due to the continued upward trend in PLEX price. The isk return on PLEX doesn't seem to stabilize long term hinting that the simple $:isk relationship is driving it.
Alternatively if budget is the greater determination that means that our elasticity would still result in a neutral result. The customer spending x still spends x, providing no benefit for CCP, and we hope that the $:isk relationship proves to be strong enough to get a different group of customers to start spending. But that seems odd as, like stated above, that carrot isn't exactly working as hoped.
This becomes especially problematic because, if it works, it eliminates the same impetus to buy that the price drop created, possibly damaging long term revenue. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
25085
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 02:41:59 -
[563] - Quote
Aaron wrote:From my perspective if plex was -ú9.99, the plex trader dudes would buy 2 plex for -ú19.98, sell in game for 760m ( -ú1.00 = 76m isk) then I believe 1000's more would buy plex for the use of game time and CCP would end up with a similar income because of increased numbers. Not going to happen, the guys who currently trade PLEX may well buy more, but they're unlikely to drop the price while there are still people willing to pay the current one. Even if casual traders get in and list plex at 760M, the guys that are selling at 1.2B will probably snap them up enmasse and relist them, in that respect PLEX is no different from any other item that is sold via the market.
You're underestimating the lure of profit in both human nature and an economy such as Eve's.
Quote:CCP need to take less from more people rather than more from less people. If they can get into a position to do this they have won. You mean CCP has to risk the future of their flagship product, and the company, by potentially cutting their main source of revenue in the hope of attracting both returning accounts and new players.
Some of the former group are unsubbed multiboxing accounts, they're unlikely to return unless CCP reverses the input broadcasting ban, which is unlikely. Others in the former group have left for reasons that aren't PLEX prices, they too are unlikely to return.
The latter group, new players, already has a poor retention rate. That poor retention rate is due to many reasons; the nature of the game, prior expectations from other MMO's, misinformation from those that delight in urinating in the newbie pool, etc, etc. Very few of them are put off by PLEX prices, few of them know what it is and for most of them it's an unattainable goal for a few months, even priced at 200-250M as it was when I started the game.
So where is this more coming from?
Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
|
Aaron
Eternal Frontier
316
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 03:12:15 -
[564] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:You are assuming that there is some sort of decreasing return to having more ISK. If I can take $20 and get 1 billion ISK now, and tomorrow I can take the same $20 and get 2 billion ISK...I'd only spend $10? I was willing to part with $20 and get 1 billion. If 2 billion is even better...WTF, I'll still part with $20 and take the 2 billion. You are correct, I am making that assumption, but I don't believe it's being done unreasonably. It's a question of how PLEX are being used by those that buy them from CCP. Are they doing so with a particular in game isk goal in mind or are they dictated purely by IRL budget? If the latter than a price change creates a strong differentiation, if the former than the primary determinant for PLEX bought is isk need/in gamePLEX price. I tend to think it's the latter due to the continued upward trend in PLEX price. The isk return on PLEX doesn't seem to stabilize long term hinting that the simple $:isk relationship is driving it. Alternatively if budget is the greater determination that means that our elasticity would still result in a neutral result. The customer spending x still spends x, providing no benefit for CCP, and we hope that the $:isk relationship proves to be strong enough to get a different group of customers to start spending. But that seems odd as, like stated above, that carrot isn't exactly working as hoped. This becomes especially problematic because, if it works, it eliminates the same impetus to buy that the price drop created, possibly damaging long term revenue. Aaron wrote:Also account for the fact that if the in game price for plex is lowered for any reason then you'd get more people buying so ecventualy CCP would go back to making the same money. Would you? I wonder if, since PLEX serves to fulfill a secondary need by those that buy them from CCP, that if that need gets met the room for more sales gets behaviorally capped. If I spend 2 bill isk a month and fund that via PLEX will I suddenly start spending 4bill per month if CCP halves PLEX prices? If I don't, when I get several times the amount I spend in the wallet or more will I keep spending on PLEX at the same rate?
I strongly believe the UK's -ú to isk is approx 76m to 80m which is in line with the current price of 1.3b, If the price is reduced from -ú16.99 to -ú12.00 then perhaps CCP could do a long term deal where you get 2 plex for -ú20.00. If my scenario happens then over a month or two the isk price would go back down to 800m, the plex trader that wants 1.3b will have to pay a few pounds extra and get 2 plex to sell at 800m each.
Another way maybe for CCP to sell 3 types of plex, Aurum plex, Character plex, and the jewel Game time plex, all three can be traded in game for isk. If we can seperate the plex type we might then be able to see the true value of game time.
Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3365
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 03:13:20 -
[565] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:You are assuming that there is some sort of decreasing return to having more ISK. If I can take $20 and get 1 billion ISK now, and tomorrow I can take the same $20 and get 2 billion ISK...I'd only spend $10? I was willing to part with $20 and get 1 billion. If 2 billion is even better...WTF, I'll still part with $20 and take the 2 billion. You are correct, I am making that assumption, but I don't believe it's being done unreasonably. It's a question of how PLEX are being used by those that buy them from CCP. Are they doing so with a particular in game isk goal in mind or are they dictated purely by IRL budget? If the latter than a price change creates a strong differentiation, if the former than the primary determinant for PLEX bought is isk need/in gamePLEX price. I tend to think it's the latter due to the continued upward trend in PLEX price. The isk return on PLEX doesn't seem to stabilize long term hinting that the simple $:isk relationship is driving it. Alternatively if budget is the greater determination that means that our elasticity would still result in a neutral result. The customer spending x still spends x, providing no benefit for CCP, and we hope that the $:isk relationship proves to be strong enough to get a different group of customers to start spending. But that seems odd as, like stated above, that carrot isn't exactly working as hoped. This becomes especially problematic because, if it works, it eliminates the same impetus to buy that the price drop created, possibly damaging long term revenue. Aaron wrote:Also account for the fact that if the in game price for plex is lowered for any reason then you'd get more people buying so ecventualy CCP would go back to making the same money. Would you? I wonder if, since PLEX serves to fulfill a secondary need by those that buy them from CCP, that if that need gets met the room for more sales gets behaviorally capped. If I spend 2 bill isk a month and fund that via PLEX will I suddenly start spending 4bill per month if CCP halves PLEX prices? If I don't, when I get several times the amount I spend in the wallet or more will I keep spending on PLEX at the same rate?
Depends doesn't it. If I'm using PLEX to fund a character purchase, then getting 2 billion for the same $ amount is a huge plus. If I just need a billion, yeah I might drop to $10...then again, have an extra billion as buffer...so maybe not.
It is like saying one can have too much money. If I offer you $10 million or $100 million which will you choose? If it is $100 million when $10 million will let you live a life of luxury and ease till you die and even pass on a nice inheritance to any children...I think you can see why that assumption might be flawed or not as strong as you think.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3365
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 03:14:52 -
[566] - Quote
These claims of "lowering the price would lead to more people doing X" need to provide at least some reasonable data that the price of whatever they are talking about has a price elasticity of demand in excess of 1. Failing that, then no.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Aaron
Eternal Frontier
316
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 03:21:49 -
[567] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:These claims of "lowering the price would lead to more people doing X" need to provide at least some reasonable data that the price of whatever they are talking about has a price elasticity of demand in excess of 1. Failing that, then no.
The people saying that RL plex price affects the in game isk cost only have "I'm leaving cos plex too high" posts, and market numbers and trends relating to plex supply and demand. Also it is quite obvious that the RL cost of plex must be a factor in the cost of it in game, It's the only variable that links the real world and virtual world of Eve therefore it must be taken into account.
Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
|
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
25087
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 03:27:10 -
[568] - Quote
Aaron wrote:I strongly believe the UK's -ú to isk is approx 76m to 80m which is in line with the current price of 1.3b, If the price is reduced from -ú16.99 to -ú12.00 then perhaps CCP could do a long term deal where you get 2 plex for -ú20.00. If my scenario happens then over a month or two the isk price would go back down to 800m You've yet to explain why you believe this, you assume much and know little.
Quote:the plex trader that wants 1.3b will have to pay a few pounds extra and get 2 plex to sell at 800m each. Nope, he'll sell them for the maximum amount of isk that somebody is willing to pay for them. PLEX sells at 1.2B, it'll probably sell at 1.5B, 1.7B and 2B too.
Quote:Another way maybe for CCP to sell 3 types of plex, Aurum plex, Character plex, and the jewel Game time plex, all three can be traded in game for isk. If we can seperate the plex type we might then be able to see the true value of game time.
We already have 3 effective currencies in Eve, 4 if you include trust, we don't need pointless complications like 2 more types of PLEX thrown into the mix.
Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
|
Aaron
Eternal Frontier
316
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 03:32:50 -
[569] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Hasikan Miallok wrote:Primary This Rifter wrote:How the **** is this conversation relevant to anything? It is kinda related to the "just pay a sub as you earn more in an hour than a months sub costs" comments you get all the time from Americans and Central Europeans because in many many parts of the world that is simply not true at all. If you live in a country with $15 usd is a lot of money , EVE is the least of your problems. No one owes people who live in crappy countries access to a video game. All of which is moot, the VAST majority of EVE players live in countries where $15 usd is chump change, and most people who play thi game spend more than 15 bucks a month on all manner of bullshit.
CCP were clever to create plex for the purpose of game time. It is a good business practice where CCP can earn money from someone who has the means to pay RL cash on behalf of someone who doesn't.
I say again, one should never turn their nose up at real money generated from a person who could be from a poor country.
Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26166
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 03:41:42 -
[570] - Quote
Aaron wrote:So generally I am saying if plex is cheaper in the real world more of it will be brought, if theres more of it that generally means cheaper isk prices, and if the plex is cheaper in game we will have the 5 account guy back, and the corp that helps people boost standings can make a comeback resulting in more people in game and better prospects for the economy.
I feel strongly that this is an accurate assessment. Again, there is nothing to suggest that anything of the kind will happen.
You are assuming that people designate a specific amount of money they will spend on PLEX, rather than that they buy as many PLEX as they need to acquire a specific amount of ISK GÇö that the decision hinges entirely on what you pay rather than what you get in return.
You are also assuming that the buyers are interested in putting as much as they can into the market, pushing the prices down, rather than offering the least amount needed to get the ISK they're after and just keep the price up. Again, the assumption is that the actual return is of a much lesser interest.
You are effectively assuming a very irrational behaviour on the part of the PLEX buyer. You're going to need a lot of evidence and reasoning to support all of these assumptions, and since the very start, you've offered the sum total of none.
Quote:Also it is quite obvious that the RL cost of plex must be a factor in the cost of it in game, It's the only variable that links the real world and virtual world of Eve therefore it must be taken into account. GǪexcept, that, as mentioned, it is not the only variable, and there is very little to suggest that the two costs are linked. So no, it is not even remotely obvious.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1588
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 03:53:18 -
[571] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Depends doesn't it. If I'm using PLEX to fund a character purchase, then getting 2 billion for the same $ amount is a huge plus. If I just need a billion, yeah I might drop to $10...then again, have an extra billion as buffer...so maybe not.
It is like saying one can have too much money. If I offer you $10 million or $100 million which will you choose? If it is $100 million when $10 million will let you live a life of luxury and ease till you die and even pass on a nice inheritance to any children...I think you can see why that assumption might be flawed or not as strong as you think. For a buffer, I can see it. The issue becomes needing people to do so in order to maintain revenue.
That also relates to why the argument of "do you want 10m or 100m" doesn't draw a fair comparison. This isn't a gift, I have to give something for the 10m and 10x that for 100m. The question becomes how valuable is that "something" and what use is the money being gained. For IRL currency the value is quite high, in game it's not remotely comparable though, especially against IRL currency. So we can probably assume some elasticity should plex prices drop, and with it some in game relief for PLEX prices.
The issue is that unless the elasticity <= -1, it loses CCP potential revenue. There may be some workings long term to counteract this possibly (IE: Lower PLEX > more active accounts > more going on in game > more subs being drawn in > more PLEX purchases) but I don't have any data to lean either way. I'm just not convinced lowering prices is the silver bullet suggestion. |
hellokittyonline
Rifterlings Zero.Four Ops
125
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 04:08:09 -
[572] - Quote
Remove incursions. Raw isk is no longer being dropped into everyone's wallet. Isk is worth more. Plex prices drop. Missions are completed, markets are formed, loot and salvage is stolen and most importantly; Content is created. |
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1519
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 04:13:29 -
[573] - Quote
I see the cheaper PLEX issue this way.
If cars were suddenly half price, how many people would suddenly decide to buy two instead of one. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3365
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 04:16:56 -
[574] - Quote
hellokittyonline wrote:Remove incursions. Raw isk is no longer being dropped into everyone's wallet. Isk is worth more. Plex prices drop. Missions are completed, markets are formed, loot and salvage is stolen and most importantly; Content is created.
Rat bounties are about 3x as large as incursions. And it is not clear that even eliminating incursions will have that effect. It might...or it might not.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
ISD Decoy
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
1183
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 04:47:50 -
[575] - Quote
I have removed a post and one quoting it that lacks sensitivity to certain people within our player base. If you cannot be respectful of others, and can't put others' plight into context, please don't post.
Quote:2. Be respectful toward others at all times.
The purpose of the EVE Online forums is to provide a platform for exchange of ideas, and a venue for the discussion of EVE Online. Occasionally there will be conflicts that arise when people voice opinions. Forum users are expected to be courteous when disagreeing with others.
ISD Decoy
Captain
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
|
Aaron
Eternal Frontier
316
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 04:50:05 -
[576] - Quote
Hasikan Miallok wrote:I see the cheaper PLEX issue this way.
If cars were suddenly half price, how many people would suddenly decide to buy two instead of one.
It depends on the need I suppose, if RL cost is reduced and isk plex price is lowered as a result the need for more plex would be required to achieve the desired isk amount.
Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
|
Aaron
Eternal Frontier
316
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 05:00:17 -
[577] - Quote
ISD Decoy wrote:I have removed a post and one quoting it that lacks sensitivity to certain people within our player base. If you cannot be respectful of others, and can't put others' plight into context, please don't post.
This is part of what I am saying, I know the post he is referring to and I am in full agreement with Decoy here. We have got to be able to consider the plight of others and understand it in order to move forward. I am happy that CCP seems to support this ethos.
It is unwise to discriminate against people for not having the means to pay a sub, this will only serve to feed the elitists and capitalists among us who try to shape the game to their liking with unsympathetic market practices and attitudes with regard to plex.
Plex for game time is a hot topic.
Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
|
Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
32348
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 06:49:05 -
[578] - Quote
ISD Decoy wrote:I have removed a post and one quoting it that lacks sensitivity to certain people within our player base. If you cannot be respectful of others, and can't put others' plight into context, please don't post. Quote:2. Be respectful toward others at all times.
The purpose of the EVE Online forums is to provide a platform for exchange of ideas, and a venue for the discussion of EVE Online. Occasionally there will be conflicts that arise when people voice opinions. Forum users are expected to be courteous when disagreeing with others. ISD Decoy, I'm struggling to put that hairdo into context. Please help.
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
|
Divine Entervention
Legion's Knights Of The Round Intrepid Crossing
611
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 08:19:22 -
[579] - Quote
conan o'brien |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3365
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 08:26:24 -
[580] - Quote
Divine Entervention wrote:conan o'brien
Exactly!
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
|
Salvos Rhoska
1472
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 08:41:58 -
[581] - Quote
Aaron wrote:It is unwise to discriminate against people for not having the means to pay a sub, this will only serve to feed the elitists and capitalists among us who try to shape the game to their liking with unsympathetic market practices and attitudes with regard to plex. You, or anyone else, can donate as much isk, PLEX or RLM as you want.
I recommend you set up, for example, a Twitch channel as a venue for it.
In it, viewers with not enough expendable income inorder to play can petition your sympathy, and that of other viewers, for support of their gaming hobby.
You can also accept isk/PLEX/RLM donations which go towards a pool for support grants to these dispriviliged players who cannot afford to play the game, so as to make it available to them too.
PvE v PvP
|
Deck Cadelanne
CAStabouts
220
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 09:50:48 -
[582] - Quote
I'm not an economist, I've been having a real head-scratch about this for a while, mostly because I really like this game and want to see it (and CCP) thrive, prosper and grow...so here goes...
For PLEX to work as a game mechanic, two things need to be true:
1. The in-game price of PLEX needs to be low enough for it to be a viable way for the more hard-corps players to use it as a means to pay for their play time.
2. The in-game price of PLEX needs to be high enough for it to be worth it for players willing to spend RL cash to obtain in-game wealth.
This does seem to imply a third requirement:
3. The game has to offer incentives (=entertainment value) that makes both PLEX consumers and PLEX suppliers *want* to participate in said transactions
It seems to me that the real heart of the problem is one of content:
4. Banning input multiplexing effectively removed many thousands of accounts from the game...but this should have decreased demand and in-game price, the rising price means other factors are at play
5. The new player retention barrier is as high as ever so replacing those lost accounts is impossible without fixing NPE.
6. There appears to be no in-game content driver...shiny new ship class (sorry T3 dessies don't quite cut it) or something like that...to incentivise the PLEX suppliers to spend RL cash to go after right now.
My theory, at the moment, is that the remedy to the current malaise has to be something along the lines of a serious overhaul of NPE + something seriously "flashy" from a marketing perspective to both attract new players and help them be "sticky" and re-energize the veterans and get them more engaged in the game.
With Drifters, sov overhaul, (citadels + revamped purpose for supercaps), etc. suggests the stage is potentially being set for some of that to happen. I hope it is.
"When the going gets weird, the weird turn professional."
- Hunter S. Thompson
|
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
504
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 10:06:37 -
[583] - Quote
almost 30 pages about one single item, which is confirm that it is overestimated by masses. |
Aoife Fraoch
Rabble Inc.
141
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 10:43:26 -
[584] - Quote
Personally I really can not see PLEX dropping below 900 million without something dramatic happening. I suspect we are looking at a peak for right now, but given that we have seen trade volumes close to what was seen around April and May for a number of weeks, and the prices are still rising, I don't think it will fall far.
I would not be surprised if what we are actually seeing is a market correction. There seems to be enough activity to sustain a higher price than we saw a year ago.
I am sure someone has mentioned it, but don't forget that with mult-character training, and new things being added to the NEX store the space rich actually have a reason to consume more PLEX than before and maintain demand. |
Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
604
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 12:08:51 -
[585] - Quote
Let us actually agree that he can't actually HAVE babies... but that we should fight for his RIGHT to HAVE them?!
But he can't actually have babies, where is the fetus going to gestate? You gonna keep it in a box?!
^Thread, circa p.24-30^
Best description of Eve Online and why the community is the way it is
|
Anne Dieu-le-veut
Natl Assn for the Advancement of Criminal People
254
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 12:35:10 -
[586] - Quote
I'd be all for lowering the price of PLEX to equal a sub, or maybe keep it a dollar a month more because PLEX have more versatility than a simple sub, BUT...there is zero evidence that would lower the price of them in game. That *might* increase the number of people buying PLEX from CCP, but there are so many space rich players that aren't even blinking at paying 1.2B ISK, there is no reason for sellers to sell them for less. Many of those extra PLEX sales might go towards dual/tri training by buyers, and never even see the market. I've only bought a couple PLEX from CCP over the years, and their IRL cost had ZERO bearing on my decision. |
Tam Arai
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
53
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 12:46:28 -
[587] - Quote
confirming i will accept all plex donations gratefully |
u3pog
Ministerstvo na otbranata
712
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 12:48:54 -
[588] - Quote
30 Pages here and more than 30 in market discussion. No matter how much we discuss PLEX, we won't affect it, unless we buy it with real money or on the markets. I don't see a point why should we delve so deep into terms and economics, who's privileged or not (after reading the last few pages, I already feel I am), or what the price should be...
If you have few trillion in your wallet, feel free to affect the price, but beware, massive manipulations may lead to a ban.
Other than that, relax, grab some pop corn, and enjoy the show.
P.S. I really like the energy and effort we put in here. It means we are very passionate about the game. Just don't leave it, if you can't afford PLEX, find other means, change playstile, beg, take loan, anything, this game is worth it! |
Zihao
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
119
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 15:25:40 -
[589] - Quote
And the grinding class still haven't been organized to take back the means of production. What the hell Aaron? |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3370
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 15:34:56 -
[590] - Quote
Anne Dieu-le-veut wrote:I'd be all for lowering the price of PLEX to equal a sub, or maybe keep it a dollar a month more because PLEX have more versatility than a simple sub, BUT...there is zero evidence that would lower the price of them in game. That *might* increase the number of people buying PLEX from CCP, but there are so many space rich players that aren't even blinking at paying 1.2B ISK, there is no reason for sellers to sell them for less. Many of those extra PLEX sales might go towards dual/tri training by buyers, and never even see the market. I've only bought a couple PLEX from CCP over the years, but their IRL cost had ZERO bearing on my decision.
Other than economic theory...you know that annoying model called supply and demand.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3370
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 15:36:27 -
[591] - Quote
Zihao wrote:And the grinding class still haven't been organized to take back the means of production. What the hell Aaron?
So...the reserve army of the unemployed have found employment by grinding in Eve?
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3370
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 15:47:29 -
[592] - Quote
Aoife Fraoch wrote:Personally I really can not see PLEX dropping below 900 million without something dramatic happening. I suspect we are looking at a peak for right now, but given that we have seen trade volumes close to what was seen around April and May for a number of weeks, and the prices are still rising, I don't think it will fall far.
I would not be surprised if what we are actually seeing is a market correction. There seems to be enough activity to sustain a higher price than we saw a year ago.
I am sure someone has mentioned it, but don't forget that with mult-character training, and new things being added to the NEX store the space rich actually have a reason to consume more PLEX than before and maintain demand.
Exactly my point a few pages back. If items in the NEX store have increased demand then you'll see an increase in the price. No need to invoke any other dubious explanation.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Anne Dieu-le-veut
Natl Assn for the Advancement of Criminal People
254
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 15:51:09 -
[593] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Anne Dieu-le-veut wrote:I'd be all for lowering the price of PLEX to equal a sub, or maybe keep it a dollar a month more because PLEX have more versatility than a simple sub, BUT...there is zero evidence that would lower the price of them in game. That *might* increase the number of people buying PLEX from CCP, but there are so many space rich players that aren't even blinking at paying 1.2B ISK, there is no reason for sellers to sell them for less. Many of those extra PLEX sales might go towards dual/tri training by buyers, and never even see the market. I've only bought a couple PLEX from CCP over the years, but their IRL cost had ZERO bearing on my decision. Other than economic theory...you know that annoying model called supply and demand.
AFAIK there is an unlimited supply of PLEX from CCP, so supply is not an issue. |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2225
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 15:55:59 -
[594] - Quote
Anne Dieu-le-veut wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Anne Dieu-le-veut wrote:I'd be all for lowering the price of PLEX to equal a sub, or maybe keep it a dollar a month more because PLEX have more versatility than a simple sub, BUT...there is zero evidence that would lower the price of them in game. That *might* increase the number of people buying PLEX from CCP, but there are so many space rich players that aren't even blinking at paying 1.2B ISK, there is no reason for sellers to sell them for less. Many of those extra PLEX sales might go towards dual/tri training by buyers, and never even see the market. I've only bought a couple PLEX from CCP over the years, but their IRL cost had ZERO bearing on my decision. Other than economic theory...you know that annoying model called supply and demand. AFAIK there is an unlimited supply of PLEX from CCP, so supply is not an issue.
The supply for the market is limited by the RL investment of players. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3370
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 16:01:15 -
[595] - Quote
Anne Dieu-le-veut wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Anne Dieu-le-veut wrote:I'd be all for lowering the price of PLEX to equal a sub, or maybe keep it a dollar a month more because PLEX have more versatility than a simple sub, BUT...there is zero evidence that would lower the price of them in game. That *might* increase the number of people buying PLEX from CCP, but there are so many space rich players that aren't even blinking at paying 1.2B ISK, there is no reason for sellers to sell them for less. Many of those extra PLEX sales might go towards dual/tri training by buyers, and never even see the market. I've only bought a couple PLEX from CCP over the years, but their IRL cost had ZERO bearing on my decision. Other than economic theory...you know that annoying model called supply and demand. AFAIK there is an unlimited supply of PLEX from CCP, so supply is not an issue.
True, which is why in my first post back a couple of pages I had this picture.
Notice how the supply curve is horizontal (the red line)?
And notice that given either of the two demand curves we have a finite quantity of PLEX.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26171
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 16:08:43 -
[596] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:True, which is why in my first post back a couple of pages I had this picture. Notice how the supply curve is horizontal (the red line)? That figure assumes that supply is constant for some reason GÇö it doesn't explain why this would be the case. So there is nothing there to note other than an assumption.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3371
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 16:11:22 -
[597] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:True, which is why in my first post back a couple of pages I had this picture. Notice how the supply curve is horizontal (the red line)? That figure assumes that supply is constant for some reasonGǪ
It assumes that the price elasticity is infinite...i.e. supply is potentially infinite, but when you add in demand you end up with a finite quantity on the market.
CCP bears very little or no cost in creating a PLEX, so they can continually add them as players want them at whatever price CCP decides on.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2226
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 16:21:52 -
[598] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Tippia wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:True, which is why in my first post back a couple of pages I had this picture. Notice how the supply curve is horizontal (the red line)? That figure assumes that supply is constant for some reasonGǪ It assumes that the price elasticity is infinite...i.e. supply is potentially infinite, but when you add in demand you end up with a finite quantity on the market. CCP bears very little or no cost in creating a PLEX, so they can continually add them as players want them at whatever price CCP decides on.
CCP's cost to produce a PLEX is irrelevant to the market. The real limiting factor is how many $$$ is cost "the market" to get a new PLEX added in the pool. If PLEX were to crash to 100 mill, most people would probably not buy 12 PLEX for every one they buy now to cover their ISK need. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26173
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 16:47:01 -
[599] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:It assumes that the price elasticity is infinite...i.e. supply is potentially infinite, but when you add in demand you end up with a finite quantity on the market. I think the fundamental problem is that you're mixing and matching different supplies and demands, and overloading two distinct parameters in one line.
By your graph, demand should go down as supply increase, and that's generally fine and good. But which demand? Since you're talking about RL cost, I can only assume that you also mean RL demand and quantity, but since the supply and price is constant, demand and quantity should be the the exact same GÇö the quantity is the demand. So either you're confusing dependent and independent variable (the demand should really be the x-axis), or the demand shouldn't be represented at all (demand isn't a function of quantity here). Or you're mixing markets, which also means the demand shouldn't be represented. I'm tempted to say that demand should be constant in that graph, but it really shouldn't GÇö it's just not contingent on anything else shown in the graph.
I think what I'm trying to say is that: what are you actually trying to show here? That as supply remains constant (and infinite) and demand goes down (somehow) as quantity goes up, the twoGǪ do what? That price and supply are independent from quantity (which begs he question GÇö it's the premise of the red line)? It looks like you're either massively overcomplicating things, or directly confusing what's what by trying to have in-game and out-of-game markets appear in the same graph.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
Aaron
Eternal Frontier
316
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 19:23:26 -
[600] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:It assumes that the price elasticity is infinite...i.e. supply is potentially infinite, but when you add in demand you end up with a finite quantity on the market. I think the fundamental problem is that you're mixing and matching different supplies and demands, and overloading two distinct parameters in one line. By your graph, demand should go down as supply increase, and that's generally fine and good. But which demand? Since you're talking about RL cost, I can only assume that you also mean RL demand and quantity, but since the supply and price is constant, demand and quantity should be the the exact same GÇö the quantity is the demand. So either you're confusing dependent and independent variable (the demand should really be the x-axis), or the demand shouldn't be represented at all (demand isn't a function of quantity here). Or you're mixing markets, which also means the demand shouldn't be represented. I'm tempted to say that demand should be constant in that graph, but it really shouldn't GÇö it's just not contingent on anything else shown in the graph. I think what I'm trying to say is that: what are you actually trying to show here? That as supply remains constant (and infinite) and demand goes down (somehow) as quantity goes up, the twoGǪ do what? That price and supply are independent from quantity (which begs he question GÇö it's the premise of the red line)? It looks like you're either massively overcomplicating things, or directly confusing what's what by trying to have in-game and out-of-game markets appear in the same graph. If you're going to do a supply-demand analysis on a single good that isn't even a market GÇö viz. real-life PLEX sales GÇö you end up with something like this.
It is you who complicates things Tippia. You are completely oblivious as to why demand has gone down and it seems that you can't even speculate why.
Tippia, Why do you think supply has gone down? please give me a direct answer to this question without telling me it is irrelevant or any other evasive response.
Are you even prepared to acknowledge that plex is what links the real world to the Eve virtual world?
Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
|
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26180
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 19:26:41 -
[601] - Quote
Aaron wrote:It is you who complicates things Tippia. Prove it.
Quote:You are completely oblivious as to why demand has gone down and it seems that you can't even speculate why. Incorrect. I'm simply pointing out that his graph is an incoherent mess.
Quote:Tippia, Why do you think supply has gone down? Which supply?
Quote:Are you even prepared to acknowledge that plex is what links the real world to the Eve virtual world? Not in the way you believe, no.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
Aaron
Eternal Frontier
316
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 19:30:31 -
[602] - Quote
Aaron wrote:Tippia wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:It assumes that the price elasticity is infinite...i.e. supply is potentially infinite, but when you add in demand you end up with a finite quantity on the market. I think the fundamental problem is that you're mixing and matching different supplies and demands, and overloading two distinct parameters in one line. By your graph, demand should go down as supply increase, and that's generally fine and good. But which demand? Since you're talking about RL cost, I can only assume that you also mean RL demand and quantity, but since the supply and price is constant, demand and quantity should be the the exact same GÇö the quantity is the demand. So either you're confusing dependent and independent variable (the demand should really be the x-axis), or the demand shouldn't be represented at all (demand isn't a function of quantity here). Or you're mixing markets, which also means the demand shouldn't be represented. I'm tempted to say that demand should be constant in that graph, but it really shouldn't GÇö it's just not contingent on anything else shown in the graph. I think what I'm trying to say is that: what are you actually trying to show here? That as supply remains constant (and infinite) and demand goes down (somehow) as quantity goes up, the twoGǪ do what? That price and supply are independent from quantity (which begs he question GÇö it's the premise of the red line)? It looks like you're either massively overcomplicating things, or directly confusing what's what by trying to have in-game and out-of-game markets appear in the same graph. If you're going to do a supply-demand analysis on a single good that isn't even a market GÇö viz. real-life PLEX sales GÇö you end up with something like this. It is you who complicates things Tippia. You are completely oblivious as to why demand has gone down and it seems that you can't even speculate why. Tippia, Why do you think supply has gone down? please give me a direct answer to this question without telling me it is irrelevant or any other evasive response. Are you even prepared to acknowledge that plex is what links the real world to the Eve virtual world?
Sorry Tippia, I'm a little tired. I was meant to type;
It is you who complicates things Tippia. You are completely oblivious as to why demand has gone down and it seems that you can't even speculate why.
Tippia, Why do you think demand has gone down? please give me a direct answer to this question without telling me it is irrelevant or any other evasive response.
Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26180
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 19:33:32 -
[603] - Quote
Aaron wrote:Why do you think demand has gone down? Which demand?
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
Aaron
Eternal Frontier
316
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 19:35:51 -
[604] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Aaron wrote:Why do you think demand has gone down? Which demand?
Tippia, Why do you think demand for PLEX has gone down?
Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26180
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 19:36:17 -
[605] - Quote
Aaron wrote:Tippia, Why do you think demand for PLEX has gone down? Which one?
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
Aaron
Eternal Frontier
316
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 19:37:55 -
[606] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Aaron wrote:Tippia, Why do you think demand for PLEX has gone down? Which one?
Tippia, Why do you think demand for PLEX purchased on the Eve market has gone down?
Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26180
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 19:40:41 -
[607] - Quote
Aaron wrote:Tippia, Why do you think demand for PLEX purchased on the Eve market has gone down? Has it?
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
Aaron
Eternal Frontier
316
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 19:46:26 -
[608] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Aaron wrote:Tippia, Why do you think demand for PLEX purchased on the Eve market has gone down? Has it?
The graph you linked seems to depict this. Are you trying to tell me your graph was based on fictitious info?
It's a simple question Tippia and you seem to be doing everything you can to avoid my question. I am actually interested in your speculation regarding why demand for PLEX purchased with isk has gone down?
*Deep Nigerian Voice* Answer the question, or we send the people round!!!
Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26180
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 19:48:13 -
[609] - Quote
Aaron wrote:The graph you linked seems to depict this. No. It demonstrated how you can't do a regular supply-demand graph for a fixed-cost, infinite-supply good on a non-market when there is no established dependence between demand and any of the parameters you're measuring.
So: has it?
No need to be racist.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
Divine Entervention
Legion's Knights Of The Round Intrepid Crossing
614
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 19:50:36 -
[610] - Quote
It's a shame to see that CCP has decided to manipulate the PLEX market to get themselves more money.
They must really need it.
It's also a shame that we can't prove they aren't manipulating the plex market, that we can only speculate and try to pass off our opinions as facts.
Because they totally would, it would be in their best interests, of course.
Everyone knows this, well except for the few people with ailments that are rude to talk about in public. |
|
Aaron
Eternal Frontier
316
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 19:50:49 -
[611] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Aaron wrote:The graph you linked seems to depict this. No. It demonstrated how you can't do a regular supply-demand graph for a fixed-cost, infinite-supply good on a non-market when there is no established dependence between demand and any of the parameters you're measuring. So: has it? No need to be racist.
You're impsossible.
I wasn't being racist.
Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26180
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 19:53:28 -
[612] - Quote
Aaron wrote:You're impsossible. No. I'm just asking you to be precise in your question and to actually understand what you're asking.
So: has it?
Quote:I wasn't being racist. Oh yes you were.
Divine Entervention wrote:It's a shame to see that CCP has decided to manipulate the PLEX market to get themselves more money. Do you have any evidence or reasoning to support this?
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
Aaron
Eternal Frontier
316
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 19:56:25 -
[613] - Quote
Hmm, so me copying a line in a film I saw is racist?
Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
|
Divine Entervention
Legion's Knights Of The Round Intrepid Crossing
614
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 19:58:19 -
[614] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Aaron wrote:You're impsossible. No. I'm just asking you to be precise in your question and to actually understand what you're asking. I'm doing this because you have in very short order demonstrated that you didn't read what I wrote; that you took a quote out of context; and that you didn't understand what was even being depicted. So: has it? Or is this just a very very silly strawman on your part? Quote:I wasn't being racist. Oh yes you were. Divine Entervention wrote:It's a shame to see that CCP has decided to manipulate the PLEX market to get themselves more money. Do you have any evidence or reasoning to support this?
Psychology and human history.
It's pretty much text book. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26180
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 19:58:55 -
[615] - Quote
Divine Entervention wrote:Tippia wrote:Divine Entervention wrote:It's a shame to see that CCP has decided to manipulate the PLEX market to get themselves more money. Do you have any evidence or reasoning to support this? Psychology and human history. So GÇ£noGÇ¥, then.
Aaron wrote:Hmm, so me copying a line in a film I saw is racist? Yes.
Quote:It seems difficult to have a convo with you Tippia. It really isn't. You just have to pay attention.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
Divine Entervention
Legion's Knights Of The Round Intrepid Crossing
614
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 20:02:39 -
[616] - Quote
ya no worries, use to you disregarding what you don't want to hear.
Have a good day |
Aaron
Eternal Frontier
316
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 20:05:15 -
[617] - Quote
Tippia wrote:
It really isn't. You just have to pay attention.
You're very good at dissecting others views and opinions, No need to be shy mate, I just want to know your take on what is apparent. You fail at putting your own view forward and attempt further evasion by calling me racist.
If you're not prepared to acknowledge the facts we do know then why are you even here typing?
Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
|
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
25093
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 20:05:36 -
[618] - Quote
Aaron wrote:Hmm, so me copying a line in a film I saw is racist?
It seems difficult to have a convo with you Tippia. The use of the word Nigerian is what makes it possible for your quote to be construed as racist. You're a fellow Brit, you should know this given the amount of politically correct can't risk people taking offence crap that is forced upon us every day.
Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26180
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 20:06:37 -
[619] - Quote
Divine Entervention wrote:ya no worries, use to you disregarding what you don't want to hear. You're confusing me with you again.
There is nothing for me to disregard because you haven't provided anything, and your disregarding this fact will not make it go away. I know you don't want to hear GÇ£prove itGÇ¥, but you'll keep hearing it until you stop asserting stuff without evidence.
Aaron wrote:I just want to know your take on what is apparent. And what is that?
Quote:If you're not prepared to acknowledge the facts we do know then why are you even here typing? What facts?
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
Paranoid Loyd
6941
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 20:07:21 -
[620] - Quote
Aaron wrote:Tippia wrote:
It really isn't. You just have to pay attention.
You're very good at dissecting others views and opinions, No need to be shy mate, I just want to know your take on what is apparent. You fail at putting your own view forward and attempt further evasion by calling me racist. If you're not prepared to acknowledge the facts we do know then why are you even here typing? You haven't presented any facts, just opinions.
"Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata
Fix the Prospect!
|
|
Aaron
Eternal Frontier
316
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 20:10:45 -
[621] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Aaron wrote:Hmm, so me copying a line in a film I saw is racist?
It seems difficult to have a convo with you Tippia. The use of the word Nigerian is what makes it possible for your quote to be construed as racist. You're a fellow Brit you should know this, given the amount of politically correct can't risk people taking offence crap that is forced upon us every day.
I get what you're saying with political correctness.
The film I saw was set in Nigeria and was about a group of gangsters. I quoted a line from a film because it was funny the way he said it. If some feel my joke was in poor taste the I am sorry.
Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
|
Divine Entervention
Legion's Knights Of The Round Intrepid Crossing
614
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 20:24:18 -
[622] - Quote
O look at this, these Nigerian dudes have a very distinct accent.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKbti8UdneU
Noticing it and commenting on it isn't racist. You're OK dude, no reason to explain yourself to people who live in a bubble. Especially to people who are so delusional that they can't see the obvious truth that ccp is most likely manipulating plex prices because they love money. |
Bagrat Skalski
Poseidaon
9721
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 20:35:59 -
[623] - Quote
Those people who didnt have enough time to make ISK to buy PLEX are feeling oppressed. Also some of them may talk in a funny manner. Save them! You people must emigrate to england or deutschland or mbutu knows where.
Custom ship skins, character creator style "repaint". Bring it!
|
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
5377
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 20:42:23 -
[624] - Quote
Aaron wrote:You're impsossible. Don't ever argue with Tippia.
Imagine if Steven Hawking and Johnny Cochran had a child. It's a battle that few are prepared to fight.
Just accept the loss and move on. [Or reach for the Chewbacca Defense to daze 'em while you make your escape.]
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26180
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 20:46:50 -
[625] - Quote
Divine Entervention wrote:Noticing it and commenting on it isn't racist. Including it in a comment to make it a threat is.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
604
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 20:47:56 -
[626] - Quote
Tau Cabalander wrote:Aaron wrote:You're impsossible. Don't ever argue with Tippia. Imagine if Steven Hawking and Johnny Cochran had a child. It's a battle that few are prepared to fight. Just accept the loss and move on. [Or reach for the Chewbacca Defense to daze 'em while you make your escape.]
This is correct. Tippia will start to argue that you should have used "Than" instead of "Then" therefore the shields of the moon of Endor were still up and the trap was still an illusion... 47... Tupac is still alive. Done.
Best description of Eve Online and why the community is the way it is
|
Divine Entervention
Legion's Knights Of The Round Intrepid Crossing
614
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 20:50:55 -
[627] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Divine Entervention wrote:Noticing it and commenting on it isn't racist. Including it in a comment to make it a threat is.
In your opinion, which you're allowed to have one. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26180
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 20:53:01 -
[628] - Quote
Divine Entervention wrote:In your opinion. No, by definition.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
Divine Entervention
Legion's Knights Of The Round Intrepid Crossing
614
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 20:53:45 -
[629] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Divine Entervention wrote:In your opinion. No, by definition.
Link to said definition? |
Divine Entervention
Legion's Knights Of The Round Intrepid Crossing
614
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 21:02:07 -
[630] - Quote
Nice ninja edit |
|
Aaron
Eternal Frontier
316
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 21:21:53 -
[631] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Divine Entervention wrote:In your opinion. No, pretty much by definition. It's an irrelevant inclusion of race with the sole purpose of evincing an air of menace.
LOL, all this for asking you a question. Come on man, answer the question. Lots of people say the in game demand has dropped. You seem oblivious to the fact that you are even here typing. level with me and give me your views.
Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26183
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 21:27:33 -
[632] - Quote
Aaron wrote:LOL, all this for asking you a question. No, for you drawing on stereotyped and bigoted imagery in your attempt to bluster.
Quote:Come on man, answer the question. Lots of people say the in game demand has dropped. I don't care what people say. Hearsay the most worthless and unreliable GÇ£evidenceGÇ¥ there is, to the point of not being evidence at all.
Thus the question: has it?
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
Aaron
Eternal Frontier
316
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 21:29:45 -
[633] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Aaron wrote:LOL, all this for asking you a question. No, for you drawing on stereotyped and bigoted imagery in your attempt to bluster. Quote:Come on man, answer the question. Lots of people say the in game demand has dropped. I don't care what people say. Hearsay the most worthless and unreliable GÇ£evidenceGÇ¥ there is, to the point of not being evidence at all. Thus the question: has it?
We all saw the buy order for 100 appear, then suddenly disappear. Do you care to speculate on why this happened? Do you have any gut feeling or view related to this?
Lets face it Tippa, you yourself depicted the demand for in game plex going down in your graph. The reason you did so is because like most others you see that the demand is going down.
Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26183
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 21:34:46 -
[634] - Quote
Aaron wrote:We all saw the buy order for 100 appear, then suddenly disappear. Do you care to speculate on why this happened? No. There are far too many mundane explanations to make any speculation particularly interesting or relevant, and at the end of the day, it's just a single data point, which further reinforces both of those aspects.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
Aaron
Eternal Frontier
316
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 21:37:34 -
[635] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Aaron wrote:We all saw the buy order for 100 appear, then suddenly disappear. Do you care to speculate on why this happened? No. There are far too many mundane explanations to make any speculation particularly interesting or relevant, and at the end of the day, it's just a single data point, which further reinforces both of those aspects.
Do you have anything to contribute to this thread?
What others do is always interesting and relevant In any trade environment. It can even prompt what you do if you're involved in the trade.
Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26192
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 21:40:00 -
[636] - Quote
Aaron wrote:Do you have anything to contribute to this thread? Tons. Especially a critical approach to unproven and baseless assertions and to incoherent conspiracy theories.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
Zihao
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
122
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 21:40:45 -
[637] - Quote
Aaron, please stop arguing about capitalist half-measures when you KNOW what has to be done is put the means of production into the hands of the grinding class. I am beginning to think you are a bourgeoisie plant and a threat to the revolution. |
Divine Entervention
Legion's Knights Of The Round Intrepid Crossing
614
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 21:42:13 -
[638] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Aaron wrote:LOL, all this for asking you a question. No, for you drawing on stereotyped and bigoted imagery in your attempt to bluster. Quote:Come on man, answer the question. Lots of people say the in game demand has dropped. I don't care what people say. Hearsay the most worthless and unreliable GÇ£evidenceGÇ¥ there is, to the point of not being evidence at all. Thus the question: has it?
Nothing he said was bigoted or stereotypical. If you drew the conclusion that his comment was so, then it's because you yourself are racist and the mere mention of that nationality causes you to draw upon your own opnions to develop your conclusion that his statement was insulting. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26192
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 21:43:12 -
[639] - Quote
Divine Entervention wrote:Nothing he said was bigoted or stereotypical. Learn to read.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
Tank Murdock Jnr
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
25
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 21:43:55 -
[640] - Quote
Divine Entervention wrote:then it's because you yourself are racist
Ah, the good old "takes one to know one" argument.
When a person is insane, as you clearly are, do you know that you're insane? Maybe you're just sitting around, reading 'Guns and Ammo', masturbating in your own faeces, do you just stop and go, 'Wow! It is amazing how f*cking crazy I really am!'?
|
|
Zihao
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
122
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 21:44:45 -
[641] - Quote
It's funny because socialists are politically correct in the extreme and Aaron still made an ethnic joke which would have caused him to be expelled from polite leftist company, and probably beaten to a pulp by your average antifa thugs. |
Aaron
Eternal Frontier
316
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 21:46:10 -
[642] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Divine Entervention wrote:Nothing he said was bigoted or stereotypical. Learn to read.
I've got an Italian gangster voice too. wanna hear it? I also have Jamaican, British, Russian, and Irish, take your pick.
Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
|
Divine Entervention
Legion's Knights Of The Round Intrepid Crossing
614
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 21:49:12 -
[643] - Quote
Did you know that in different places of the world, people talk differently?
Yea, some of them don't even use English. They've got their own entire languages that are completely different.
*CCP EVE developer speaking with Heavy Icelandic Accent* "It's time to send in the space police to prevent them from noticing we're manipulating our PLEX market to get us more money to feed the elves." |
Zihao
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
122
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 21:51:08 -
[644] - Quote
Political correctness for thee, but not for me. |
Tank Murdock Jnr
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
25
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 21:51:27 -
[645] - Quote
Divine Entervention wrote:Did you know that in different places of the world, people talk differently?
Yea, some of them don't even use English. They've got their own entire languages that are completely different.
*CCP EVE developer speaking with Heavy Icelandic Accent* "It's time to send in the space police"
And yet, the one thing that unites all of these parts of the world is that all of them have idiots in their ranks.
Edit: In before "takes one to know one!"
When a person is insane, as you clearly are, do you know that you're insane? Maybe you're just sitting around, reading 'Guns and Ammo', masturbating in your own faeces, do you just stop and go, 'Wow! It is amazing how f*cking crazy I really am!'?
|
Divine Entervention
Legion's Knights Of The Round Intrepid Crossing
614
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 21:52:38 -
[646] - Quote
Tank Murdock Jnr wrote:Divine Entervention wrote:Did you know that in different places of the world, people talk differently?
Yea, some of them don't even use English. They've got their own entire languages that are completely different.
*CCP EVE developer speaking with Heavy Icelandic Accent* "It's time to send in the space police" And yet, the one thing that unites all of these parts of the world is that all of them have idiots in their ranks.
And even further into the rabbit hole, some of them make it onto EvE forums and begin blubbering about how their misperceptions are other's racist comments. |
Zihao
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
122
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 21:54:14 -
[647] - Quote
Divine Entervention wrote:Tank Murdock Jnr wrote:Divine Entervention wrote:Did you know that in different places of the world, people talk differently?
Yea, some of them don't even use English. They've got their own entire languages that are completely different.
*CCP EVE developer speaking with Heavy Icelandic Accent* "It's time to send in the space police" And yet, the one thing that unites all of these parts of the world is that all of them have idiots in their ranks. And even further into the rabbit hole, some of them make it onto EvE forums and begin blubbering about how their misperceptions are other's racist comments.
Careful comrade, that's a thought-crime in Utopia. |
Tank Murdock Jnr
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
25
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 21:55:50 -
[648] - Quote
Divine Entervention wrote:rabbit hole
Pervert.
When a person is insane, as you clearly are, do you know that you're insane? Maybe you're just sitting around, reading 'Guns and Ammo', masturbating in your own faeces, do you just stop and go, 'Wow! It is amazing how f*cking crazy I really am!'?
|
Divine Entervention
Legion's Knights Of The Round Intrepid Crossing
614
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 21:56:45 -
[649] - Quote
Tank Murdock Jnr wrote:Divine Entervention wrote:rabbit hole Pervert.
It was asking for it. You can't dress that way and not expect it. |
Tank Murdock Jnr
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
25
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 21:59:31 -
[650] - Quote
Divine Entervention wrote:It was asking for it. You can't dress that way and not expect it.
Mockrageous!
I mean, Outrageous!
When a person is insane, as you clearly are, do you know that you're insane? Maybe you're just sitting around, reading 'Guns and Ammo', masturbating in your own faeces, do you just stop and go, 'Wow! It is amazing how f*cking crazy I really am!'?
|
|
Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
605
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 22:07:38 -
[651] - Quote
"I'm not a racist, I have plenty of [insert race here] imaginary digital pixel friends"
Best description of Eve Online and why the community is the way it is
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3371
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 22:14:08 -
[652] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:It assumes that the price elasticity is infinite...i.e. supply is potentially infinite, but when you add in demand you end up with a finite quantity on the market. I think the fundamental problem is that you're mixing and matching different supplies and demands, and overloading two distinct parameters in one line.
No, there are essentially two markets here.
The first is the RL PLEX market. There the supply is very elastic--i.e. CCP will make as many PLEX as customers demand. If it is 100, they'll make 100. If somebody wants 10,000 they'll sell that many. This is why supply is shown in my graph as horizontal. PLEX are not cars, or tables, or the like. There are really no constraints on how many CCP can produce given that there is a willing buyer. Or as already noted, the only real constraint is the number of PLEX being demanded.
Then, some of the PLEX sold make it into the market in game. The supply there is not like the supply out of game because players cannot create them as costlessly as CCP can.
Quote:By your graph, demand should go down as supply increase, and that's generally fine and good. But which demand? Since you're talking about RL cost, I can only assume that you also mean RL demand and quantity, but since the supply and price is constant, demand and quantity should be the the exact same GÇö the quantity is the demand. So either you're confusing dependent and independent variable (the demand should really be the x-axis), or the demand shouldn't be represented at all (demand isn't a function of quantity here). Or you're mixing markets, which also means the demand shouldn't be represented. I'm tempted to say that demand should be constant in that graph, but it really shouldn't GÇö it's just not contingent on anything else shown in the graph.
No. You are confusing the quantity on the market (due to the intersection of supply and demand) with demand and that is wrong. What we observe in any market is the quantity that results from the intersection of supply and demand. And the x-axis is quantity. That is almost always the case in graphical supply and demand analysis (yes, it is backwards from standard math, but that is the convention is economics, blame Alfred Marshall). And the quantity demanded is function of price.
And demand in the RL market exists and is a function of price. If this were not the case thereGÇÖd be no market. You need supply and demand for there to be a market.
Quote:I think what I'm trying to say is that: what are you actually trying to show here? That as supply remains constant (and infinite) and demand goes down (somehow) as quantity goes up, the twoGǪ do what? That price and supply are independent from quantity (which begs he question GÇö it's the premise of the red line)? It looks like you're either massively overcomplicating things, or directly confusing what's what by trying to have in-game and out-of-game markets appear in the same graph. If you're going to do a supply-demand analysis on a single good that isn't even a market GÇö viz. real-life PLEX sales GÇö you end up with something like this.
No, it is very simple. CCP faces very little costs when issuing a PLEX. So small IGÇÖm setting the supply curve to being perfectly elastic. Supply cannot be both constant and infinite by the way. The price however if constant, or at least it has been so far. And what do you mean by GÇ£demand goes downGÇ¥ do you mean a movement along the demand curve, a movement of the demand curve? They are very different. For example, if incomes go up, then the demand curve itself moves. It would shift outward in the graph I have drawn. If incomes go down, then it would shift inwards. To move along the demand curve, CCP would have to change the price of PLEX. And price and supply are not independent of price. The price determines the supply curve; that is what it means when a good is perfectly elastic.
Interesting graph, but not really valid for doing supply and demand analysis. That looks more like a time series of the quantity of PLEX over time. The supply and demand analysis IGÇÖm showing is for an instant in time, not time series. You cannot use time series data to get a demand or a supply function. The problem is that each point in the time series is the result of the intersection of supply and demandGÇöi.e. you have an identification problem meaning youGÇÖd have to use something like two-stage least squares to estimate either the demand or supply curves, but not both.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Zihao
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
122
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 22:21:24 -
[653] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote: CCP faces very little costs when issuing a PLEX.
Their cost to generate the pixels that correspond to a PLEX is effectively irrelevant; however, their revenue being predicated on a certain percentage of their income coming from the more-valuable (PLEX) avenue over the less valuable (sub, especially long-term sub) is what you will need to contend with.
It's quite possible that reducing PLEX to a level closer to that of sub cost would not bring in or retain sufficient subscribers to off-set the loss and there's no way you can accurately model that with the information we have. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3371
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 22:28:59 -
[654] - Quote
Zihao wrote:Teckos Pech wrote: CCP faces very little costs when issuing a PLEX.
Their cost to generate the pixels that correspond to a PLEX is effectively irrelevant; however, their revenue being predicated on a certain percentage of their income coming from the more-valuable (PLEX) avenue over the less valuable (sub, especially long-term sub) is what you will need to contend with. It's quite possible that reducing PLEX to a level closer to that of sub cost would not bring in or retain sufficient subscribers to off-set the loss and there's no way you can accurately model that with the information we have.
I pretty much agree. The cost is irrelevant (or it is very, very small). And I agree, that lowering the price of PLEX out of game may not offset the loss from having a lower price. It all depends on the price elasticity of demand. If it is more elastic (i.e. a small price decrease results in a larger increase in the quantity demanded) then itGÇÖs all good. If on the other hand it is more inelastic, then decreasing the price may end up costing CCP revenues. And nobody has the answer to that, maybe not even CCP as I noted, one of the problems with trying to identify the demand curve is you have to have a variable that will shift the supply curve. But the only real way to do thatGǪwould be to change the price. And even then there is the issue of does the demand exhibit a constant elasticity? A linear demand curve does not have a constant elasticity, but a region that elastic, unit elastic, and inelastic.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26197
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 22:48:48 -
[655] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:No, there are essentially two markets here. I understand that. The problem is that you're mixing them up in a very unclear way in your graph and not actually displaying what a supply-demand graph normally shows.
You list the RL price, so we have to assume that the rest is RL as well, but that's where the problem starts: what you're displaying is not actually a market. There is no supply-demand intercept that determines price, and neither supply nor demand are determined by the quantity on the (non)market. Demand may be determined by the quantities available on the in-game market, but then you have the unclear market mixing I'm talking about. It could just be that you need to label each quantity to explain which market you're referring to in order to clear the matter up.
Quote:No. You are confusing the quantity on the market (due to the intersection of supply and demand) with demand and that is wrong. What we observe in any market is the quantity that results from the intersection of supply and demand. And the x-axis is quantity. That is almost always the case in graphical supply and demand analysis (yes, it is backwards from standard math, but that is the convention is economics, blame Alfred Marshall). And the quantity demanded is function of price. But that's just it: your graph doesn't really show this.
First, I don't confuse quantity and demand GÇö I'm saying that if this is showing the RL (non)market, which seems reasonable since we're looking at the RL price, then the two are the same: the elasticity means that the demand is the quantity. The two follow in complete lock-step, which goes against intuition and doesn't let us say which is a function of which. The intersection between supply and demand that would normally let us derive an optimal price or expected quantity is entirely arbitrary since the price is fixed, and demand/quantity can be anything along that axisGǪ until we figure out what it is that actually determines the fluctuations in demand and/or quantity so we can put the right value in, which that chart does not let us do. It should actually just be a single line going in the wrong direction trying to intersect with infinity.
Quote:And demand in the RL market exists and is a function of price. If this were not the case thereGÇÖd be no market. That's exactly it: it isn't a market. It's a fixed cost and an infinite supply. No matter how demand moves, those two will not change.
Quote:No, it is very simple. CCP faces very little costs when issuing a PLEX. So small IGÇÖm setting the supply curve to being perfectly elastic. Supply cannot be both constant and infinite by the way. Sure it can. No matter what, it is always (i.e. constantly) infinite. Nothing affects it short of CCP discontinuing the program.
Semantics aside, we're left with the same fundamental problem regardless: we can either see it as the intersection being completely arbitrary because demand will never intersect with the unlimited supply; or it being completely arbitrary because the completely elastic supply intersects with demand at every point. We end up with a useless non-answer either way.
Quote:Interesting graph, but not really valid for doing supply and demand analysis. I know. That was kind of the point. It's an illustration of what the RL (non)market of PLEX looks like and why we can't use supply-demand analysis on that part, at least not in isolation. We have to start elsewhere.
It provides us with one insight: that out of game, and in isolation, demand Gëí quantity, which is completely contrary to how it should be. To resolve this little paradox, we have to figure out a way to determine what quantity and demand actually look like, and we have to look at the in-game market for that. This will most likely also unveil the fact that the two are not equivalent and that we can indeed set up a regular demand-quantity relationship. With that in hand, we could conceivably go back to the RL market and start experimenting with how quantity would be affected by different price points. We're still not really looking at a market, though, we'd still be looking for a (different) fixed price and an infinite supply.
I think that we basically agree on everything GÇö I'm just taking issue with your representation of the OOG situation as a market that can be analysed according to supply and demand as one would normally do.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
6370
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 22:50:11 -
[656] - Quote
Removed some off color/troll posts. Keep it on topic and civil. Thank you.
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
Vice Admiral
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
|
Paranoid Loyd
6942
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 22:55:23 -
[657] - Quote
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode wrote:Removed some off color I see what you did there.
"Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata
Fix the Prospect!
|
Anne Dieu-le-veut
Natl Assn for the Advancement of Criminal People
254
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 22:58:11 -
[658] - Quote
Assuming for argument's sake the number of people buying PLEX from CCP is down, maybe it's because ISK is so easy to make, fewer people feel the need to spend money for PLEX for a quick infusion of ISK. This would lead space rich people are to offer to pay more to entice someone to sell them one.
It doesn't matter to me if PLEX is $19.95 or $14.95 when it comes to deciding if I am going to buy one. If they dropped the price to $14.95 tomorrow, I still wouldn't buy any, because I don't need the ISK, and if I did, I'd still sell it for as much as I could get, and not pass my savings on to the user. |
Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
606
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 23:19:27 -
[659] - Quote
Anne Dieu-le-veut wrote:Assuming for argument's sake the number of people buying PLEX from CCP is down, maybe it's because ISK is so easy to make, fewer people feel the need to spend money for PLEX for a quick infusion of ISK. This would lead space rich people are to offer to pay more to entice someone to sell them one.
It doesn't matter to me if PLEX is $19.95 or $14.95 when it comes to deciding if I am going to buy one. If they dropped the price to $14.95 tomorrow, I still wouldn't buy any, because I don't need the ISK, and if I did, I'd still sell it for as much as I could get, and not pass my savings on to the user.
Or that there is nothing in game to spend said isk on. No conflict drivers, no shinny things, no capitals, no end game goods.
Deflation is starting to show up in several areas of the market recently, not just T3 prices, T2 mods and rigs, but also in certain mineral and ice markets as well. Pith/Gist stuff was just the beginning. Even the LP store for SoE is taking a hit right now.
Everything is costing less on the market, there is less need to buy it and there is less people buying. Thus Plex rises because Out of game supply is diminished, and in game demand increases (Not going to pay real money myself to play a game im not enjoying, but will use in-game assets to keep the skill queue running)
Best description of Eve Online and why the community is the way it is
|
Cancel Align NOW
Maas Industries
592
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 23:40:42 -
[660] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote:Anne Dieu-le-veut wrote:Assuming for argument's sake the number of people buying PLEX from CCP is down, maybe it's because ISK is so easy to make, fewer people feel the need to spend money for PLEX for a quick infusion of ISK. This would lead space rich people are to offer to pay more to entice someone to sell them one.
It doesn't matter to me if PLEX is $19.95 or $14.95 when it comes to deciding if I am going to buy one. If they dropped the price to $14.95 tomorrow, I still wouldn't buy any, because I don't need the ISK, and if I did, I'd still sell it for as much as I could get, and not pass my savings on to the user. Or that there is nothing in game to spend said isk on. No conflict drivers, no shinny things, no capitals, no end game goods. Deflation is starting to show up in several areas of the market recently, not just T3 prices, T2 mods and rigs, but also in certain mineral and ice markets as well. Pith/Gist stuff was just the beginning. Even the LP store for SoE is taking a hit right now. Everything is costing less on the market, there is less need to buy it and there is less people buying. Thus Plex rises because Out of game supply is diminished, and in game demand increases (Not going to pay real money myself to play a game im not enjoying, but will use in-game assets to keep the skill queue running)
I agree with you again. (Oh dear what is happening to me). The days when a group would lose 200 tengus, 100 HACs and 30 logi which need all needed to be replaced within 48 hours seem to be gone.
To kick start the isk inflation CCP should present some speculative concepts that make supers and titans very attractive for vets whilst offering plex sales. |
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3372
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 23:50:33 -
[661] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Snipping due to quoting limits. TippiaGÇÖs post is here.
I am not mixing anything. That graph with the horizontal supply is the RL PLEX market. The subsequent graphs are the in-game market, which I note rather explicitly by writing something to the effect, GǣThe effect on the in-game marketGǪ.Gǥ
Why do you keep calling the RL market a non-market? It is a market. A commodity is sold there are buyers and there is a seller. ItGÇÖs pretty obvious, it is a market.
GÇ£The elasticity means that the demand is the quantityGÇ¥? IGÇÖm sorry but what? And if demand is identical to quantityGǪare you implying that the demand is perfectly inelastic
The in-game market is related to the RL market and vice-versa. As the in-game price goes up, the RL implicit exchange rate changes so that ISK becomes relatively cheaperGÇöi.e. people using PLEX to fatten their wallet will find RL PLEX relatively cheaper. And if there is a change in RL demand (e.g. fewer players buying PLEX because they have left the game) then that will have an effect on the in-game market (e.g. a price increase). There are definitely feedbacks between the two, but that does not mean that standard supply and demand analysis cannot be used to show why prices can be going up for reasons no more nefarious than fewer players reducing the demand in the RL market, which then translate into a reduced supply in game, and then adding on the inclusion of additional items people buy in game with PLEX causing an increase in demand (outward shift). All of these would result in price increases. All the various threads about PLEX prices and speculation, hoarding, manipulation, and the like are just errant nonsense that never have a coherent story behind them. Just kooky ranting by people who are annoyed that they can no longer afford the PLEX and play for GÇ£freeGÇ¥.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3372
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 23:52:14 -
[662] - Quote
Anne Dieu-le-veut wrote:Assuming for argument's sake the number of people buying PLEX from CCP is down, maybe it's because ISK is so easy to make, fewer people feel the need to spend money for PLEX for a quick infusion of ISK. This would lead space rich people are to offer to pay more to entice someone to sell them one.
It doesn't matter to me if PLEX is $19.95 or $14.95 when it comes to deciding if I am going to buy one. If they dropped the price to $14.95 tomorrow, I still wouldn't buy any, because I don't need the ISK, and if I did, I'd still sell it for as much as I could get, and not pass my savings on to the user.
That is why competition is so awesome. It leads to that whether the seller wants to or not.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Tiberius Heth
Say No to Features
142
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 23:52:15 -
[663] - Quote
Cancel Align NOW wrote:I agree with you again. (Oh dear what is happening to me). The days when a group would lose 200 tengus, 100 HACs and 30 logi which need all needed to be replaced within 48 hours seem to be gone.
To kick start the isk inflation CCP should present some speculative concepts that make supers and titans very attractive for vets whilst offering plex sales.
Your (not so) hidden agenda is showing.
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3372
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 23:54:32 -
[664] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote:Anne Dieu-le-veut wrote:Assuming for argument's sake the number of people buying PLEX from CCP is down, maybe it's because ISK is so easy to make, fewer people feel the need to spend money for PLEX for a quick infusion of ISK. This would lead space rich people are to offer to pay more to entice someone to sell them one.
It doesn't matter to me if PLEX is $19.95 or $14.95 when it comes to deciding if I am going to buy one. If they dropped the price to $14.95 tomorrow, I still wouldn't buy any, because I don't need the ISK, and if I did, I'd still sell it for as much as I could get, and not pass my savings on to the user. Or that there is nothing in game to spend said isk on. No conflict drivers, no shinny things, no capitals, no end game goods. Deflation is starting to show up in several areas of the market recently, not just T3 prices, T2 mods and rigs, but also in certain mineral and ice markets as well. Pith/Gist stuff was just the beginning. Even the LP store for SoE is taking a hit right now. Everything is costing less on the market, there is less need to buy it and there is less people buying. Thus Plex rises because Out of game supply is diminished, and in game demand increases (Not going to pay real money myself to play a game im not enjoying, but will use in-game assets to keep the skill queue running)
Well prices might be dropping, but not due to deflationGǪunless you got some reason for us to believe that the amount of ISK in the economy is shrinking.
Sheesh...I blew that.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
602
|
Posted - 2015.09.21 23:56:28 -
[665] - Quote
That is what I got on about lots. Isk should be cyclical. It isnt small ships, but large losses to make a gain should be a norm so over time, if a warmonger, your wins can come at a cost which over time can fall apart, like the empires of old. The isk in system will stay there unless a player goes. Plexes should be just a side benefit to skilled play, not an expectation of play. If we fix play, plex prices will find a nice medium determined by the value sellers put on isk to dollars.
To quote Lfod Shi
The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
|
Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
608
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 00:01:38 -
[666] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Market McSelling Alt wrote:Anne Dieu-le-veut wrote:Assuming for argument's sake the number of people buying PLEX from CCP is down, maybe it's because ISK is so easy to make, fewer people feel the need to spend money for PLEX for a quick infusion of ISK. This would lead space rich people are to offer to pay more to entice someone to sell them one.
It doesn't matter to me if PLEX is $19.95 or $14.95 when it comes to deciding if I am going to buy one. If they dropped the price to $14.95 tomorrow, I still wouldn't buy any, because I don't need the ISK, and if I did, I'd still sell it for as much as I could get, and not pass my savings on to the user. Or that there is nothing in game to spend said isk on. No conflict drivers, no shinny things, no capitals, no end game goods. Deflation is starting to show up in several areas of the market recently, not just T3 prices, T2 mods and rigs, but also in certain mineral and ice markets as well. Pith/Gist stuff was just the beginning. Even the LP store for SoE is taking a hit right now. Everything is costing less on the market, there is less need to buy it and there is less people buying. Thus Plex rises because Out of game supply is diminished, and in game demand increases (Not going to pay real money myself to play a game im not enjoying, but will use in-game assets to keep the skill queue running) Well prices might be dropping, but not due to deflationGǪunless you got some reason for us to believe that the amount of ISK in the economy is shrinking. Sheesh...I blew that.
Deflation by definition is the price of goods dropping. Doesn't matter why for this discussion. Isk availability shrinking is one of the ways deflation could happen.
Good example of how money supply has no effect on prices is the current economic conditions of the United States. Their dollar value is rising, but the amount of money being created from thin air has never been higher. Lots of reasons for Inflation, Stagflation and Deflation.
Eve is deflating in prices, for many reasons.
Best description of Eve Online and why the community is the way it is
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3372
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 00:08:56 -
[667] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Market McSelling Alt wrote:Anne Dieu-le-veut wrote:Assuming for argument's sake the number of people buying PLEX from CCP is down, maybe it's because ISK is so easy to make, fewer people feel the need to spend money for PLEX for a quick infusion of ISK. This would lead space rich people are to offer to pay more to entice someone to sell them one.
It doesn't matter to me if PLEX is $19.95 or $14.95 when it comes to deciding if I am going to buy one. If they dropped the price to $14.95 tomorrow, I still wouldn't buy any, because I don't need the ISK, and if I did, I'd still sell it for as much as I could get, and not pass my savings on to the user. Or that there is nothing in game to spend said isk on. No conflict drivers, no shinny things, no capitals, no end game goods. Deflation is starting to show up in several areas of the market recently, not just T3 prices, T2 mods and rigs, but also in certain mineral and ice markets as well. Pith/Gist stuff was just the beginning. Even the LP store for SoE is taking a hit right now. Everything is costing less on the market, there is less need to buy it and there is less people buying. Thus Plex rises because Out of game supply is diminished, and in game demand increases (Not going to pay real money myself to play a game im not enjoying, but will use in-game assets to keep the skill queue running) Well prices might be dropping, but not due to deflationGǪunless you got some reason for us to believe that the amount of ISK in the economy is shrinking. Sheesh...I blew that. Deflation by definition is the price of goods dropping. Doesn't matter why for this discussion. Isk availability shrinking is one of the ways deflation could happen. Good example of how money supply has no effect on prices is the current economic conditions of the United States. Their dollar value is rising, but the amount of money being created from thin air has never been higher. Lots of reasons for Inflation, Stagflation and Deflation. Eve is deflating in prices, for many reasons.
Prices decreasing is not deflation. Deflation is a decrease in the general price level. Typically this can be due to a decrease in the money supply or the velocity of money. Another reason could be excessive risk that leads people to hold cash vs. investing it. Noting some prices have dropped is not really sufficient. It would be like somebody noting that the relative price of computers has been dropping like a rockGǪso therefore deflation.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Zihao
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
123
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 00:15:33 -
[668] - Quote
It's important to specify when speaking of inflation and deflation whether you mean monetary inflation/deflation or asset inflation/deflation. The two are related, but not necessarily corollaries since a price contraction can occur for reasons other than the value of money going up, eg. a more efficient way of producing something is found or a surplus exists that was unanticipated.
I don't think there's any question that both monetary inflation and many instances of asset deflation can be found in the game. The former coming from plentiful isk fountains like incursions, anomaly and mission bounties, or sleeper loot; and the latter coming from the increasing surplus of goods in the absence of the usual or anticipated rate of destruction. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3372
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 00:19:40 -
[669] - Quote
Zihao wrote:It's important to specify when speaking of inflation and deflation whether you mean monetary inflation/deflation or asset inflation/deflation. The two are related, but not necessarily corollaries since a price contraction can occur for reasons other than the value of money going up, eg. a more efficient way of producing something is found or a surplus exists that was unanticipated.
I don't think there's any question that both monetary inflation and many instances of asset deflation can be found in the game. The former coming from plentiful isk fountains like incursions, anomaly and mission bounties, or sleeper loot; and the latter coming from the increasing surplus of goods in the absence of the usual or anticipated rate of destruction.
Well said.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Tiberius Heth
Say No to Features
142
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 00:21:25 -
[670] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote: Deflation by definition is the price of goods dropping. Doesn't matter why for this discussion.
What?
|
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26199
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 00:22:55 -
[671] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:I am not mixing anything. That graph with the horizontal supply is the RL PLEX market. The subsequent graphs are the in-game market, which I note rather explicitly by writing something to the effect, GǣThe effect on the in-game marketGǪ.Gǥ The mixing I'm talking about is the quantity, that has no sensible meaning in the RL market. It only means something on the in-game market, where it may start affecting (or effecting) the kind of interplay we expect between supply and demand.
Quote:Why do you keep calling the RL market a non-market? It is a market. A commodity is sold there are buyers and there is a seller. ItGÇÖs pretty obvious, it is a market. I'm calling it a non-market because there is no supply-demand relationship; no way of establishing price or quantity as a function of either, or vice versa. The forces that are supposed to determine all of this don't exist GÇö it's a single source with an infinite supply at a fixed price, and there is no opposition, reinforcement, or push-back to any of this within this exchange. Almost all market dynamics are disabled. We can assume that price will change the quantity, but we cannot predict how (or even if it will at all) since we don't have the relevant opposing market forces that are supposed to intercept each other at a specific point.
Quote:GÇ£The elasticity means that the demand is the quantityGÇ¥? IGÇÖm sorry but what? And if demand is identical to quantityGǪare you implying that the demand is perfectly inelastic I'm saying that demand is not contingent on anything else that appears in this GÇ£marketGÇ¥, and that quantity holds no useful meaning. They do have meaning once we move to the in-game market, and this may carry back to the OOG GÇ£marketGÇ¥, but that doesn't help much since, again, the OOG GÇ£marketGÇ¥ is almost static.
Quote:The in-game market is related to the RL market and vice-versa. As the in-game price goes up, the RL implicit exchange rate changes so that ISK becomes relatively cheaperGÇöi.e. people using PLEX to fatten their wallet will find RL PLEX relatively cheaper. And if there is a change in RL demand (e.g. fewer players buying PLEX because they have left the game) then that will have an effect on the in-game market (e.g. a price increase). There are definitely feedbacks between the two, but that does not mean that standard supply and demand analysis cannot be used to show why prices can be going up for reasons no more nefarious than fewer players reducing the demand in the RL market, which then translate into a reduced supply in game, and then adding on the inclusion of additional items people buy in game with PLEX causing an increase in demand (outward shift). All of these would result in price increases. And the point is twofold: one is that you have to start in-game to determine the OOG demand and quantity GÇö we can't find them by looking at the OOG model. Yes, there are feedbacks between the two, but all that can happen on the OOG side is that quantity and demand changes (since everything else is static)GǪ
And the other point is that those two parameters are already fully contained by the in-game model. So what does looking at the OOG model even give us? We can't use supply-demand analysis on the RL market because the price is fixed and supply always matches demand. We have completely arbitrary or completely tautological intercepts that tell us nothing new. We have no way of telling how OOG pricing will affect quantity because there is no variance to analyse and no intercepts (or infinite intercepts) to track. We cannot decouple IG from the OOG demands in a way that lets us say anything about how the OOG GÇ£marketGÇ¥ would respond to OOG change.
Again, I'm not disagreeing with your conclusions about the price increases GÇö just questioning what the OOG part is good for and how it is represented. At most, we could take the IG supply; try to translate backwards it into OOG demand; and then speculate about what a RL price change would do to the quantity (but we'd still miss any kind of empirical data to actually prove these assumptions).
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
Cancel Align NOW
Maas Industries
592
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 00:37:25 -
[672] - Quote
Tiberius Heth wrote:Cancel Align NOW wrote:I agree with you again. (Oh dear what is happening to me). The days when a group would lose 200 tengus, 100 HACs and 30 logi which need all needed to be replaced within 48 hours seem to be gone.
To kick start the isk inflation CCP should present some speculative concepts that make supers and titans very attractive for vets whilst offering plex sales. Your (not so) hidden agenda is showing.
Just offering a potential temporary solution. FYI I am firm beliver in death to all supers. FYI I personally would rather see plex prices rise in game than stabalise or fall. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3373
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 00:41:45 -
[673] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:I am not mixing anything. That graph with the horizontal supply is the RL PLEX market. The subsequent graphs are the in-game market, which I note rather explicitly by writing something to the effect, GÇ£The effect on the in-game marketGǪ.GÇ¥ The mixing I'm talking about is the quantity, that has no sensible meaning in the RL market. It only means something on the in-game market, where it may start affecting (or effecting) the kind of interplay we expect between supply and demand. Quote:Why do you keep calling the RL market a non-market? It is a market. A commodity is sold there are buyers and there is a seller. ItGÇÖs pretty obvious, it is a market. I'm calling it a non-market because there is no supply-demand relationship; no way of establishing price or quantity as a function of either, or vice versa. The forces that are supposed to determine all of this don't exist GÇö it's a single source with an infinite supply at a fixed price, and there is no opposition, reinforcement, or push-back to any of this within this exchange. Almost all market dynamics are disabled. We can assume that price will change the quantity, but we cannot predict how (or even if it will at all) since we don't have the relevant opposing market forces that are supposed to intercept each other at a specific point. Quote:GÇ£The elasticity means that the demand is the quantityGÇ¥? IGÇÖm sorry but what? And if demand is identical to quantityGǪare you implying that the demand is perfectly inelastic I'm saying that demand is not contingent on anything else that appears in this GÇ£marketGÇ¥, and that quantity holds no useful meaning. They do have meaning once we move to the in-game market, and this may carry back to the OOG GÇ£marketGÇ¥, but that doesn't help much since, again, the OOG GÇ£marketGÇ¥ is almost static. Quote:The in-game market is related to the RL market and vice-versa. As the in-game price goes up, the RL implicit exchange rate changes so that ISK becomes relatively cheaperGÇöi.e. people using PLEX to fatten their wallet will find RL PLEX relatively cheaper. And if there is a change in RL demand (e.g. fewer players buying PLEX because they have left the game) then that will have an effect on the in-game market (e.g. a price increase). There are definitely feedbacks between the two, but that does not mean that standard supply and demand analysis cannot be used to show why prices can be going up for reasons no more nefarious than fewer players reducing the demand in the RL market, which then translate into a reduced supply in game, and then adding on the inclusion of additional items people buy in game with PLEX causing an increase in demand (outward shift). All of these would result in price increases. And the point is twofold: one is that you have to start in-game to determine the OOG demand and quantity GÇö we can't find them by looking at the OOG model. Yes, there are feedbacks between the two, but all that can happen on the OOG side is that quantity and demand changes (since everything else is static)GǪ And the other point is that those two parameters are already fully contained by the in-game model. So what does looking at the OOG model even give us? We can't use supply-demand analysis on the RL market because the price is fixed and supply always matches demand. We have completely arbitrary or completely tautological intercepts that tell us nothing new. We have no way of telling how OOG pricing will affect quantity because there is no variance to analyse and no intercepts (or infinite intercepts) to track. We cannot decouple IG from the OOG demands in a way that lets us say anything about how the OOG GÇ£marketGÇ¥ would respond to OOG change. Again, I'm not disagreeing with your conclusions about the price increases GÇö just questioning what the OOG part is good for and how it is represented. At most, we could take the IG supply; try to translate backwards it into OOG demand; and then speculate about what a RL price change would do to the quantity (and consequently on the IG supply-demand-price relationship) but we'd still miss any kind of empirical data to actually prove these assumptions. It's still just the same assumption and any GÇ£conclusionGÇ¥ is effectively begging the question.
Sure the quantity in the RL market has a sensible meaning. It is the number of PLEX CCP sold and it means something to CCP because they get money for such transactions and can have an effect in game as well. It also means something for the people who bought them, either additional game time or additional items in game.
And yes, it is a market and there is a supply/demand relationship. Say what you will, but it just sounds like metaphysical hogwash to me.
As for the rest of you post, it sounds like hogwash to me. For example, taking in game supply and translating it back to OOG demand. Bunk. People do hold PLEX on their accounts so at any given time the amount of PLEX in game probably exceeds the number of PLEX bought. It just looks like a whole lot of hand waving to me.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
608
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 00:41:51 -
[674] - Quote
Tiberius Heth wrote:Market McSelling Alt wrote: Deflation by definition is the price of goods dropping. Doesn't matter why for this discussion.
What?
Apparantely you are getting the cause of most types of Inflation/Deflation confused with the actual definition of Deflation.
Let me help you out
As you can see, money supply is credited as the often likely cause. In the case of our Eve Economy, it likely is not. Oversupply of raw materials is likely the cause of deflation in Eve.
Best description of Eve Online and why the community is the way it is
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26201
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 00:51:30 -
[675] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Sure the quantity in the RL market has a sensible meaning. It is the number of PLEX CCP sold and it means something to CCP because they get money for such transactions and can have an effect in game as well. It also means something for the people who bought them, either additional game time or additional items in game. Ok, yes, fine. The quantity holds no meaning in the context of determining how supply, demand, and price relate to each other in the OOG GÇ£marketGÇ¥.
Quote:And yes, it is a market and there is a supply/demand relationship. Only in the useless sense that supply = demand = quantity @-áfixed price at any and every point. It tells us nothing.
Quote:As for the rest of you post, it sounds like hogwash to me. For example, taking in game supply and translating it back to OOG demand. Bunk. People do hold PLEX on their accounts so at any given time the amount of PLEX in game probably exceeds the number of PLEX bought. Yes. That's kind of the point. We can try. We can speculate. We can't actually conclude anything because any such conclusion is effectively just restating the initial assumption. We can't actually determine what would happen on the OOG side due to the aforementioned tautological relationship on that GÇ£marketGÇ¥.
We can analyse the in-game market, and that's well and fine. If we try to conclude anything about the out-of-game (non)market based on this, we're instantly just speculating.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
Zihao
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
126
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 00:56:43 -
[676] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote: As you can see, money supply is credited as the often likely cause. In the case of our Eve Economy, it likely is not. Oversupply of raw materials is likely the cause of deflation in Eve.
I'd be curious to know why you think monetary inflation isn't also a culprit. I don't have any reason to suppose that both aren't a strong factor or that one is stronger than the other, but plentiful reminders can be found here that "incursions and high class wh are the best isk/hr," and these are rather explicitly pumping isk into the economy. |
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1523
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 01:03:17 -
[677] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
Deflation is starting to show up in several areas of the market recently, not just T3 prices, T2 mods and rigs, but also in certain mineral and ice markets as well. Pith/Gist stuff was just the beginning. Even the LP store for SoE is taking a hit right now.
The SOE LP hit may be a localised phenonema related to burners.
However as a case in point it seems to me the volume of PI being traded this month is around half what was being traded in the same period last year though I have limited access to accurate figures.
|
Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
608
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 01:11:03 -
[678] - Quote
Zihao wrote:Market McSelling Alt wrote: As you can see, money supply is credited as the often likely cause. In the case of our Eve Economy, it likely is not. Oversupply of raw materials is likely the cause of deflation in Eve.
I'd be curious to know why you think monetary inflation isn't also a culprit. I don't have any reason to suppose that both aren't a strong factor or that one is stronger than the other, but plentiful reminders can be found here that "incursions and high class wh are the best isk/hr," and these are rather explicitly pumping isk into the economy.
Because monetary inflation wouldn't cause prices to drop...
Best description of Eve Online and why the community is the way it is
|
Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
608
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 01:12:08 -
[679] - Quote
Hasikan Miallok wrote:Market McSelling Alt wrote:
Deflation is starting to show up in several areas of the market recently, not just T3 prices, T2 mods and rigs, but also in certain mineral and ice markets as well. Pith/Gist stuff was just the beginning. Even the LP store for SoE is taking a hit right now.
The SOE LP hit may be a localised phenonema related to burners. However as a case in point it seems to me the volume of PI being traded this month is around half what was being traded in the same period last year though I have limited access to accurate figures.
You are correct, LP values are just a localized part of the economy. But it was just one of the examples for how asset deflation is taking hold in a shrinking game economy.
Best description of Eve Online and why the community is the way it is
|
Zihao
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
126
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 01:14:04 -
[680] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote:Zihao wrote:Market McSelling Alt wrote: As you can see, money supply is credited as the often likely cause. In the case of our Eve Economy, it likely is not. Oversupply of raw materials is likely the cause of deflation in Eve.
I'd be curious to know why you think monetary inflation isn't also a culprit. I don't have any reason to suppose that both aren't a strong factor or that one is stronger than the other, but plentiful reminders can be found here that "incursions and high class wh are the best isk/hr," and these are rather explicitly pumping isk into the economy. Because monetary inflation wouldn't cause prices to drop...
The two aren't mutually exclusive though. Specifically, isk spent on PLEX or not spent at all doesn't can't drive asset prices up. The existence of isk along is not sufficient to cause general asset inflation. Players have to compete for those items to drive the price up. |
|
Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
608
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 01:16:43 -
[681] - Quote
Zihao wrote:Market McSelling Alt wrote:Zihao wrote:Market McSelling Alt wrote: As you can see, money supply is credited as the often likely cause. In the case of our Eve Economy, it likely is not. Oversupply of raw materials is likely the cause of deflation in Eve.
I'd be curious to know why you think monetary inflation isn't also a culprit. I don't have any reason to suppose that both aren't a strong factor or that one is stronger than the other, but plentiful reminders can be found here that "incursions and high class wh are the best isk/hr," and these are rather explicitly pumping isk into the economy. Because monetary inflation wouldn't cause prices to drop... The two aren't mutually exclusive though. Specifically, isk spent on PLEX or not spent at all doesn't can't drive asset prices up. The existence of isk along is not sufficient to cause general asset inflation. Players have to compete for those items to drive the price up.
That is exactly what I said. But for some reason you are trying to make a point about monetary inflation that simply is having no effect on asset prices.
Monetary inflation effecting Plex? Yes Asset deflation effecting Plex? Yes Monetary inflation causing asset deflation... lol no
Best description of Eve Online and why the community is the way it is
|
Zihao
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
126
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 01:25:03 -
[682] - Quote
You didn't specify asset deflation in the post I quoted.
Market McSelling Alt wrote: As you can see, money supply is credited as the often likely cause. In the case of our Eve Economy, it likely is not. Oversupply of raw materials is likely the cause of deflation in Eve.
Obviously, I agree that monetary inflation does not cause asset deflation.
Market McSelling Alt wrote: Monetary inflation causing asset deflation... lol no
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3374
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 05:05:45 -
[683] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Sure the quantity in the RL market has a sensible meaning. It is the number of PLEX CCP sold and it means something to CCP because they get money for such transactions and can have an effect in game as well. It also means something for the people who bought them, either additional game time or additional items in game. Ok, yes, fine. The quantity holds no meaning in the context of determining how supply, demand, and price relate to each other in the OOG GÇ£marketGÇ¥. Quote:And yes, it is a market and there is a supply/demand relationship. Only in the useless sense that supply = demand = quantity @-áfixed price at any and all points. It tells us nothing. Quote:As for the rest of you post, it sounds like hogwash to me. For example, taking in game supply and translating it back to OOG demand. Bunk. People do hold PLEX on their accounts so at any given time the amount of PLEX in game probably exceeds the number of PLEX bought. Yes. That's kind of the point. We can try. We can speculate. We can't actually conclude anything because any such conclusion is effectively just restating the initial assumption, meaning we're begging the question. We can't actually determine what would happen on the OOG side due to the aforementioned tautological relationship on that GÇ£marketGÇ¥. We can analyse the in-game market, and that's well and fine. If we try to conclude anything about the out-of-game (non)market based on this, we're instantly just speculating.
You overstate your case with regards to the RL market, IMO. Yes the supply IG is larger, but that does not mean that the RL market plays no role. My view is that the IG market is a function of what people are buying to sell and what people sell from their existing stock. For example, Kaarous Aldurald has noted he planned on cashing out at a certain price. That is why I had the IG supply curve with a positive slope--not perfectly elastic--unlike the RL market.
As for supply = demand => a price/quantity pair...yeah...useless. Never mind it is the very definition of market equilibrium.
And I'm not trying to predict anything here. IMO, economics is generally rubbish at predicting things like market up turns, down turns, etc. (and I am an economist if it wasn't obvious). I was merely trying to point out that people posting that there is some sort of manipulation or some other nefarious reason for high PLEX price is not needed. We can look at simply supply and demand analysis and see why the price has gone up.
And while I haven't made the point here, I am probably the last person on these forums who will see market speculation as a bad thing. In fact, I'll say it outright, I think speculation can often be a good thing. It helps ensure that market prices are correct and signalling the appropriate information. Higher prices usually means "we need more resources here now". In regards to PLEX the higher price translates, roughly, into buy more PLEX and sell them in game and fatten up your wallet if you are too lazy or cannot take the time to fatten it up in game.
And we can make some pretty good educated guesses about the RL market too. For example, the RL demand is a function of the number of players. The higher the number of players, the higher the number of PLEX that are being bought. We could probably even restrict that to the number of players logging in. Currently that is down...so players on the RL market buying PLEX is also probably down. Do I know this for a fact? No. But it seems a reasonable guess.
The current situation regarding PLEX price can be summarized thusly:
1. Fewer players buying PLEX on the RL market. 2. That leads to a reduction in supply in game. 3. 1 & 2 translate into higher in game prices for PLEX. 4. Add on the NEX store items and skins which may increase the in game demand for PLEX and we get.... 5. An additional increase in PLEX prices.
Some people have brought up the ban on multiplexing and how that should have reduced the price...yeah, maybe. The price did stabilize for quite some time after that...again this fits with a supply and demand analysis. The ban on multiplexing/broadcasting with things like ISBoxer probably reduced the in-game demand...lowering the price or slowing/stopping the rise in prices we have seen in the long term in the time series.
These are reasonable and simple explanations. No need for any sort of complicated theories or explanations. Supply and demand is an amazingly powerful model when used by somebody who knows how to use them.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3375
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 05:53:29 -
[684] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote:Zihao wrote:Market McSelling Alt wrote: As you can see, money supply is credited as the often likely cause. In the case of our Eve Economy, it likely is not. Oversupply of raw materials is likely the cause of deflation in Eve.
I'd be curious to know why you think monetary inflation isn't also a culprit. I don't have any reason to suppose that both aren't a strong factor or that one is stronger than the other, but plentiful reminders can be found here that "incursions and high class wh are the best isk/hr," and these are rather explicitly pumping isk into the economy. Because monetary inflation wouldn't cause prices to drop...
Increasing money supply and a drop in the general price level. Sure.
BTW, where is your index of prices? Got one? Admittedly I don't, but I'm guessing you don't either and you are basing your claims on anecdotes.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
608
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 07:13:47 -
[685] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Market McSelling Alt wrote:Zihao wrote:Market McSelling Alt wrote: As you can see, money supply is credited as the often likely cause. In the case of our Eve Economy, it likely is not. Oversupply of raw materials is likely the cause of deflation in Eve.
I'd be curious to know why you think monetary inflation isn't also a culprit. I don't have any reason to suppose that both aren't a strong factor or that one is stronger than the other, but plentiful reminders can be found here that "incursions and high class wh are the best isk/hr," and these are rather explicitly pumping isk into the economy. Because monetary inflation wouldn't cause prices to drop... Increasing money supply and a drop in the general price level. Sure. BTW, where is your index of prices? Got one? Admittedly I don't, but I'm guessing you don't either and you are basing your claims on anecdotes.
Are you prepared to make the statement that there isn't more Isk Faucets than Isk Sinks in this game each month? Would be a bad statement to make.
Are you prepared to admit you are too lazy to look up price history for basic items? Because you don't need someone else creating a spreadsheet for you when you can just open up your market in game and take a look.
So please, before you try and patronize me, think about what you are actually saying. Monetary Inflation has always happened in this game due to its very design. Asset Deflation hasn't always happened but it definitely is right now.
Plex inflation appears to be a symptom of both Monetary Inflation and Asset Deflation. It isn't rocket science, its economics.
Best description of Eve Online and why the community is the way it is
|
Bagrat Skalski
Poseidaon
9728
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 08:00:55 -
[686] - Quote
We need more players. Not less. Stop telling people this game sucks. CCP, make this game suck less.
Custom ship skins, character creator style "repaint". Bring it!
|
Divine Entervention
Legion's Knights Of The Round Intrepid Crossing
616
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 10:24:21 -
[687] - Quote
remove killmails.
People = more willing to take risks. More risks and more expensive ships being used = greater isk faucet. |
Lan Wang
V I R I I Ineluctable.
1532
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 10:26:16 -
[688] - Quote
Divine Entervention wrote:remove killmails.
People = more willing to take risks. More risks and more expensive ships being used = greater isk faucet.
i think that would just break the game
EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding | Digital Design
|
Boom Laison
University of Caille Gallente Federation
11
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 11:18:40 -
[689] - Quote
Divine Entervention wrote:remove killmails.
People = more willing to take risks. More risks and more expensive ships being used = greater isk faucet.
You do realise killmails is the only thing, that measures e-pen of most active Eve players? |
CrouchingTiger HiddenIbis
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 11:22:00 -
[690] - Quote
I love the current prices.
I'm cash rich but time poor. The high prices are letting me get through my steam library.
Fingers crossed for more inflation. |
|
Boom Laison
University of Caille Gallente Federation
11
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 11:23:42 -
[691] - Quote
PLEX price started to raise up after skinns were introduced. Instead of consuming stock pilled PLEXes, skinns raised demand, so prices doubled since then. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26208
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 13:23:27 -
[692] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:You overstate your case with regards to the RL market, IMO. Yes the supply IG is larger, but that does not mean that the RL market plays no role. It's not that it plays no role GÇö it's that the role it plays is for the most part unknowable. It doesn't behave the way a market normally does, and we have no data for it. We can guesstimate something about demand and quantity as a reflection of in-game data, but we can't actually determine it.
Quote:As for supply = demand => a price/quantity pair...yeah...useless. Never mind it is the very definition of market equilibrium. In altering what I said, you skipped over a very important part: it's not supply = demand GåÆ price/quantity. It's supply = demand = quantity, at a fixed price, at every point. In other words, there are no distinct equilibria because this holds true everywhere. The entire demand curve is just a long smeared-out equilibrium because it always intersected by an inherently matching supply. The supply side is not a market force in the regular sense. And we don't find what you'd see as a regular price quantity pair, but rather a wide smear of quantities that always matches the fixed price. So how do you do a worth-while supply-demand analysis on this?
A market equilibrium is essentially a fixed point to the supply/demand function; the function will converge towards this point with each iteration. The problem with the RL PLEX market is that it has infinite fixed points. Everywhere and anywhere on the graph, we have an equilibrium. This makes it utterly useless for the purpose of telling us howGǪ well, anything, really fits together GÇö any suggestion or hypothetical value or shift we throw in will be an equilibrium.
Quote:We can look at simply supply and demand analysis and see why the price has gone up. Yes. For the in-game market. We can't do it for the OOG GÇ£marketGÇ¥ because it doesn't behave like a market and because we have no data. That's why I question the value of including it at all. It can be collapsed into a single parameter GÇö quantity GÇö which is then used in the IG market analysis, with some caveat that not all bought PLEX end up on the IG market, which is fine since the data we have from the IG market has already filtered those out.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
R3DRUM
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
29
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 13:50:02 -
[693] - Quote
I love plex prices! its nice to know most of eve are real life poor. Once a week I sell a plex fit 20 ships and pvp all week. I dont have to PVE at all. Keep rising PLEX prices! |
u3pog
Ministerstvo na otbranata
713
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 13:56:41 -
[694] - Quote
R3DRUM wrote:I love plex prices! its nice to know most of eve are real life poor. Once a week I sell a plex fit 20 ships and pvp all week. I dont have to PVE at all. Keep rising PLEX prices!
Poor or scrooge, maybe both. Thing is, I can easily make extra cash in game to afford a PLEX, even if the price doubles, can't do that in real life...Maybe find a better job, but in some countries thats easier said than done. |
Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
608
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 17:53:34 -
[695] - Quote
R3DRUM wrote:I love plex prices! its nice to know most of eve are real life poor. Once a week I sell a plex fit 20 ships and pvp all week. I dont have to PVE at all. Keep rising PLEX prices!
Plex is nothing more than a legalized method to Pay to Win...
Or at least Pay to Fail Harder.
Best description of Eve Online and why the community is the way it is
|
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2232
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 18:15:50 -
[696] - Quote
Boom Laison wrote:Divine Entervention wrote:remove killmails.
People = more willing to take risks. More risks and more expensive ships being used = greater isk faucet. You do realise killmails is the only thing, that measures e-pen of most active Eve players?
And why is that important? |
Zihao
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
129
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 18:39:17 -
[697] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote: Plex is nothing more than a legalized method to Pay to Win...
Is that supposed to be bad? |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3375
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 19:40:00 -
[698] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:You overstate your case with regards to the RL market, IMO. Yes the supply IG is larger, but that does not mean that the RL market plays no role. [1]It's not that it plays no role GÇö it's that the role it plays is for the most part unknowable. It doesn't behave the way a market normally does, and we have no data for it. We can guesstimate something about demand and quantity as a reflection of in-game data, but we can't actually determine it. Quote:As for supply = demand => a price/quantity pair...yeah...useless. Never mind it is the very definition of market equilibrium. [2]In altering what I said, you skipped over a very important part: it's not supply = demand GåÆ price/quantity. It's supply = demand = quantity, at a fixed price, at every point. In other words, there are no distinct equilibria because this holds true everywhere. The entire demand curve is just a long smeared-out equilibrium because it always intersected by an inherently matching supply. The supply side is not a market force in the regular sense. And we don't find what you'd see as a regular price quantity pair, but rather a wide smear of quantities that always matches the fixed price. So how do you do a worth-while supply-demand analysis on this? [3]A market equilibrium is essentially a fixed point to the supply/demand function; the function will converge towards this point with each iteration. The problem with the RL PLEX market is that it has infinite fixed points. Everywhere and anywhere on the graph, we have an equilibrium. This makes it utterly useless for the purpose of telling us howGǪ well, anything, really fits together GÇö any suggestion or hypothetical value or shift we throw in will be an equilibrium. Quote:We can look at simply supply and demand analysis and see why the price has gone up. [4]Yes. For the in-game market. We can't do it for the OOG GÇ£marketGÇ¥ because it doesn't behave like a market and because we have no data. That's why I question the value of including it at all. It can be collapsed into a single parameter GÇö quantity GÇö which is then used in the IG market analysis, with some caveat that not all bought PLEX end up on the IG market, which is fine since the data we have from the IG market has already filtered those out.
I numbered your comments so as to leave them there and avoid the quote limits.
[1] Quantitatively, yeah we donGÇÖt know whatGÇÖs what. Qualitatively we can still use a supply and demand analysis to get some idea of why prices are changing.
[2] Wow where to start. When you say supply = demand are you implying they are one and the same? That is just flat out wrong. Supply is typically, the marginal cost for the firm. Demand is derived from the consumerGÇÖs utility (welfare) function. They are very different things. Here things are a bit different in that CCP has a very, very low marginal cost associated with PLEX. However, that does not mean that the supply is the demand function. It means the supply is essentially perfectly elastic or damn close to it.
[3] As for fixed pointsGǪ.No. Fixed points are used in economics, or more accurately fixed point theorems. However, they are used to prove the existence of equilibria in general equilibrium models, not for a partial equilibrium analysis such as I used here and which we are discussing. Maybe you could use a fixed point theorem, but it is like using a sledge hammer to try and open a can beer. Further, there are not infinitely many fixed points. A fixed point for a function f, is a point c such that f(c) = c. An example of a function with infinitely many fixed points is the 45 degree line f(x) = x. So in my graph, there are not infinitely many fixed points for supply, there is one where the quantity of PLEX supplied is 19.95 (which is of course nonsense as nobody is going buy 095 PLEX).
[4] The RL market behaves just like a market. People buy and sell stuff in a market and people buy PLEX and CCP sells them. If CCP set the price at $100 would they sell as many? No. Why? Demand is downward sloping with respect to price (or more formally, demand is decreasing as price increases).
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26232
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 20:01:18 -
[699] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:[1] Quantitatively, yeah we donGÇÖt know whatGÇÖs what. Qualitatively we can still use a supply and demand analysis to get some idea of why prices are changing. And again, this holds true for the in-game market, not the OOG one. We're in full agreement here, except that I still think we might as well ignore the OOG at the time being because it doesn't give us anything worth-while.
Quote:[2] Wow where to start. When you say supply = demand are you implying they are one and the same? That is just flat out wrong. Supply is typically, the marginal cost for the firm. Demand is derived from the consumerGÇÖs utility (welfare) function. They are very different things. Here things are a bit different in that CCP has a very, very low marginal cost associated with PLEX. However, that does not mean that the supply is the demand function. It means the supply is essentially perfectly elastic or damn close to it. What I'm saying is that any demand is always met; that the supply is not affected by either price or quantity, but rather solely by what the demand is, in that this demand is always met; and that for all intents and purposes, we might as well remove the supply function because it isn't relevant. The current demand is always the equilibrium, and it just gives us the current quantity.
If we had a sensible demand function (that we'd get from the IG market), we might be able to approximate some kind of relationship on the OOG market, and we could conceivably use that to build hypotheses of what a RL price change would do. But we don't and we can't so we aren't able to. So the OOG side becomes largely pointless to even discuss.
Quote:[3] As for fixed pointsGǪ.No. Fixed points are used in economics, or more accurately fixed point theorems. However, they are used to prove the existence of equilibria in general equilibrium models, not for a partial equilibrium analysis such as I used here and which we are discussing. Maybe you could use a fixed point theorem, but it is like using a sledge hammer to try and open a can beer. Further, there are not infinitely many fixed points. A fixed point for a function f, is a point c such that f(c) = c. Yes, I used the word GÇ£essentiallyGÇ¥ very deliberately to let me use the idea of convergence. It's not a fixed point in the sense that ¦Æ(c)=c, but rather in the sense that it's a convergence point that we can iterate to find. And the problem is that, with the OOG market, we can't do that. No matter what point we pick, we have convergence; everything is an equilibrium; and the equilibrium is largely meaningless anyway since the price doesn't move.
Quote:[4] The RL market behaves just like a market. People buy and sell stuff in a market and people buy PLEX and CCP sells them. If CCP set the price at $100 And that's just it: the price is fixed and it has no reason to shift. At least one (conceivably two, depending on your perspective) market force is completely out of action.
To do more and to actually start treating it as a market, we need more functions, and we don't have those. Until we do, we can only really treat it as the fixed, infinite-equilibrium setup it currently is. So again, the OOG side becomes largely pointless to even discuss.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3375
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 20:22:21 -
[700] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Market McSelling Alt wrote:Zihao wrote:Market McSelling Alt wrote: As you can see, money supply is credited as the often likely cause. In the case of our Eve Economy, it likely is not. Oversupply of raw materials is likely the cause of deflation in Eve.
I'd be curious to know why you think monetary inflation isn't also a culprit. I don't have any reason to suppose that both aren't a strong factor or that one is stronger than the other, but plentiful reminders can be found here that "incursions and high class wh are the best isk/hr," and these are rather explicitly pumping isk into the economy. Because monetary inflation wouldn't cause prices to drop... Increasing money supply and a drop in the general price level. Sure. BTW, where is your index of prices? Got one? Admittedly I don't, but I'm guessing you don't either and you are basing your claims on anecdotes. Are you prepared to make the statement that there isn't more Isk Faucets than Isk Sinks in this game each month? Would be a bad statement to make. Are you prepared to admit you are too lazy to look up price history for basic items? Because you don't need someone else creating a spreadsheet for you when you can just open up your market in game and take a look. So please, before you try and patronize me, think about what you are actually saying. Monetary Inflation has always happened in this game due to its very design. Asset Deflation hasn't always happened but it definitely is right now. Plex inflation appears to be a symptom of both Monetary Inflation and Asset Deflation. It isn't rocket science, its economics.
What? I never wrote not implied that there is not more ISK entering the game than is going out.
Looking up price behavior is not going to tell you if there is deflation. This is why there are various price indices out there, and yes, I'm too lazy to go out get the data and construct a geometric mean price index. For example, some HACs have seen price decrease, some have seen price increases. So, is that deflation, inflation, neither? You'd need an index. Preferably one that treats price increase and decrease symmetrically that lets out the Laspeyres and Paasche indices and the former overstates inflation, while the latter understates it. So you'd have to use a superlative index such as the Fisher or Tornqvist indices.
Oh...yeah, and price...not enough. You need quantity too.
Now, if somebody wants to pay me to do this...fine. Shoot me an in-game e-mail.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3376
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 20:39:37 -
[701] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:[1] Quantitatively, yeah we donGÇÖt know whatGÇÖs what. Qualitatively we can still use a supply and demand analysis to get some idea of why prices are changing. And again, this holds true for the in-game market, not the OOG one. We're in full agreement here, except that I still think we might as well ignore the OOG at the time being because it doesn't give us anything worth-while.
AndGǪ
Tippia wrote:What I'm saying is that any demand is always met; that the supply is not affected by either price or quantity, but rather solely by what the demand is, in that this demand is always met; and that for all intents and purposes, we might as well remove the supply function because it isn't relevant. The current demand is always the equilibrium, and it just gives us the current quantity.
You are contradicting yourself. The quantity IG is dependent (in part) on what people buy in the RL market. But you are saying that the RL market is telling us nothing worthwhile. But the RL market is telling us the something about the quantity IG. You canGÇÖt have it both ways saying, GÇ£Oh we can analyze the IG market, but we get nothing worthwhile from the RL marketGǪ.GÇ¥ when the RL market is a significant factor in determining the IG supply!
Maybe we canGÇÖt attach hard numbers here, but we can still use partial equilibrium analysis to help us understand what is going on.
And yes, the demand is always met. If you think about it, IGÇÖve been saying that. A perfectly elastic supply function means that only demand determines quantity shifts.
For example, market demand is nothing more than the sum of individual demands. Thus, market demand also depends on the number of people. We can in fact write it down as such:
D = d(p,I,N,a).
p is the price of PLEX I is income N is the number of people (you, me, others) a is a vector of other parameters (prices of other goods and services, etc.).
If N goes down, then weGÇÖd see a shift to the left (inwards) in the demand schedule. At all prices there would be less demand. And as you point out demand is always fulfilled so that is it. We get a decrease in quantity. This will in turn have an impact on the IG market. By how much? IDK. But qualitatively it will most likely result in a price increase.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26235
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 20:50:58 -
[702] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:You are contradicting yourself. The quantity IG is dependent (in part) on what people buy in the RL market. But you are saying that the RL market is telling us nothing worthwhile. But the RL market is telling us the something about the quantity IG. The RL market isn't telling us anything that we can't get by ignoring the RL market and just look at the IG market. In fact, anything we'd like to say about the RL market has to be back-ported via guestimates based on what we see on the IG market. So it's not a contradiction: it's saying the same thing from two perspectives.
We can analyse the IG market because we have the data and we have a sensible model for it GÇö combined, we can reach the same conclusions we can always reach. We can't really analyse the RL market we have no data and we have no sensible model for it since it behaves so differently GÇö no valid conclusions can be reached.
Quote:Maybe we canGÇÖt attach hard numbers here, but we can still use partial equilibrium analysis to help us understand what is going on. GǪexcept that we don't even know what is going on. There is nothing to understand.
So why even bother with the RL GÇ£marketGÇ¥ at all? Until we can make more than (largely baseless) assumptions about the demand function, it is just a red herring. It's just a black box we attached to the input node of our IG supply function.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
Vortexo VonBrenner
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord
2154
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 21:04:31 -
[703] - Quote
This thread is still going? Huh. ok...
ITT: ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED?
|
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
610
|
Posted - 2015.09.22 21:45:33 -
[704] - Quote
Boom Laison wrote:Divine Entervention wrote:remove killmails.
People = more willing to take risks. More risks and more expensive ships being used = greater isk faucet. You do realise killmails is the only thing, that measures e-pen of most active Eve players?
Support your statement of Killmails.
What is needed is to put more value into losses so to speak. Make it so fighting during a potential loss isn't just a "TPK" The best way to do it is to make a 100% efficiency impossible if you are facing any competition. If combat skill had as much value as bling, that would remove press F1 combat. this means that a skilled fleet could be total loss but still cost the enemy more. It would also remove unpredictability and encourage skilled players to take more losses if they have a chance to win outnumbered.
To quote Lfod Shi
The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
|
Circumstantial Evidence
230
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 00:44:44 -
[705] - Quote
Price and supply appears to be stabilizing at current levels, and I'm happy that it IS stable, two days after this announcement: Fanfest 2016 Tickets Are Now Available For Purchase With PLEX! |
zaccheroni
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 01:38:58 -
[706] - Quote
Great news for isk buyers |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3376
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 03:51:00 -
[707] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:You are contradicting yourself. The quantity IG is dependent (in part) on what people buy in the RL market. But you are saying that the RL market is telling us nothing worthwhile. But the RL market is telling us the something about the quantity IG. The RL market isn't telling us anything that we can't get by ignoring the RL market and just look at the IG market. In fact, anything we'd like to say about the RL market has to be back-ported via guestimates based on what we see on the IG market. So it's not a contradiction: it's saying the same thing from two perspectives. We can analyse the IG market because we have the data and we have a sensible model for it GÇö combined, we can reach the same conclusions we can always reach. We can't really analyse the RL market we have no data and we have no sensible model for it since it behaves so differently GÇö no valid conclusions can be reached. Quote:Maybe we canGÇÖt attach hard numbers here, but we can still use partial equilibrium analysis to help us understand what is going on. GǪexcept that we don't even know what is going on. There is nothing to understand. So why even bother with the RL GÇ£marketGÇ¥ at all? Until we can make more than (largely baseless) assumptions about the demand function, it is just a red herring. It's just a black box we attached to the input node of our IG supply function.
Yes, you could ignore the RL market and just analzye the IG market. However, in this case I think pointing out the effects of a decreased number of players can have positive effect in terms of explaining why PLEX prices are going up. People are running around talking about price manipulation, speculation and other nonsense when in the end those things are marginal influences at best.
We don't need to invoke the underpants gnome, or any other bizarre explantions. Fewer players implies less people buying PLEX to sell in game, yes? If yes, then the supply for the IG market is shifted inwards meaning a higher price. Add on things like skins which increase demand and you get a second round of price increases. Everything working as intended no need for hand wringing.
Now if you are looking to "play the market" don't talk to me, I'm just an economist.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Aaron
Eternal Frontier
316
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 18:56:31 -
[708] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Tippia wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:You are contradicting yourself. The quantity IG is dependent (in part) on what people buy in the RL market. But you are saying that the RL market is telling us nothing worthwhile. But the RL market is telling us the something about the quantity IG. The RL market isn't telling us anything that we can't get by ignoring the RL market and just look at the IG market. In fact, anything we'd like to say about the RL market has to be back-ported via guestimates based on what we see on the IG market. So it's not a contradiction: it's saying the same thing from two perspectives. We can analyse the IG market because we have the data and we have a sensible model for it GÇö combined, we can reach the same conclusions we can always reach. We can't really analyse the RL market we have no data and we have no sensible model for it since it behaves so differently GÇö no valid conclusions can be reached. Quote:Maybe we canGÇÖt attach hard numbers here, but we can still use partial equilibrium analysis to help us understand what is going on. GǪexcept that we don't even know what is going on. There is nothing to understand. So why even bother with the RL GÇ£marketGÇ¥ at all? Until we can make more than (largely baseless) assumptions about the demand function, it is just a red herring. It's just a black box we attached to the input node of our IG supply function. Yes, you could ignore the RL market and just analzye the IG market. However, in this case I think pointing out the effects of a decreased number of players can have positive effect in terms of explaining why PLEX prices are going up. People are running around talking about price manipulation, speculation and other nonsense when in the end those things are marginal influences at best. We don't need to invoke the underpants gnome, or any other bizarre explantions. Fewer players implies less people buying PLEX to sell in game, yes? If yes, then the supply for the IG market is shifted inwards meaning a higher price. Add on things like skins which increase demand and you get a second round of price increases. Everything working as intended no need for hand wringing. Now if you are looking to "play the market" don't talk to me, I'm just an economist.
Ok, I think we are getting somewhere with this. The price increases are due to all the other items/services PLEX can provide. PLEX can be used for the following;
Game Time Aurum Skins Dual Character Training Fanfest tickets and other Events
See the problem here? I think we need to go back to the old school and make PLEX about game time only, I don't think we can continue with the PLEX being used for other things. If you can afford a Skin you should be able to buy it (Skin alone and nothing else) from CCP and either use it yourself or put it on the market for isk. If there is a separation between the extra services that CCP can provide I am sure that we will see the true value of all of the above items/services.
If one is interested in paying for game time only with isk then one should be able to do that without having to pay extra isk value for other items/services that they are not interested in using. To me this sounds fair and reasonable. What do you guys think?
Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
|
Aaron
Eternal Frontier
316
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 19:07:57 -
[709] - Quote
I've come up with some general RL prices for plex types, these are;
Game Time PLEX - -ú9.99 Aurum PLEX - -ú6.99 Skin PLEX - -ú6.99 Character Services PLEX - -ú6.99 Fanfest/Events PLEX - -ú6.99
As I've already said, this will separate the market and give the people who have RL cash to put into Eve lots of products to trade for isk with. All of these products/services I have suggested will sell very well on the in game market.
Edit: revised prices
Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
|
Salvos Rhoska
1495
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 20:07:49 -
[710] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Yes, you could ignore the RL market and just analzye the IG market. However, in this case I think pointing out the effects of a decreased number of players can have positive effect in terms of explaining why PLEX prices are going up. People are running around talking about price manipulation, speculation and other nonsense when in the end those things are marginal influences at best. We don't need to invoke the underpants gnome, or any other bizarre explantions. Fewer players implies less people buying PLEX to sell in game, yes? If yes, then the supply for the IG market is shifted inwards meaning a higher price. Add on things like skins which increase demand and you get a second round of price increases. Everything working as intended no need for hand wringing. Now if you are looking to "play the market" don't talk to me, I'm just an economist.
Yes, basic supply and demand applies universally, and underlies everything as a rule. That is a given and understood as implicit, and considered into many of the posts here. We all (or, well, most), know this.
The "underpants gnome" factor is in intelligently identifying and interpreting how different market segments/movers react and behave in that supply and demand environment, and for which reasons, so as to deduce the extent of their influence upon it (and each other) as a result.
You posit, rationally and with a degree of validity, that their influence is marginal. But this is arguable, especially in a dependant micro economy like EVE, with its virtual and integral peculiarities ESPECIALLY related to PLEX as such an unprecedented commodity.
Imagine in the real world, if there was a commodity you could buy that extends your lifetime by one month. Without it, you die. Imagine further, that every unit of this you buy off the market, increases the value as a factor of controlled supply, of every other unit in your stockpile. Furthermore imagine the "underpants gnome" objective of killing off your competition by removing off the market that which they need to live for another month.
Do you have a model for this?
Its a common paradox, which Im sure you've had to endure often, that economists are rarely rich (and loathe to make predictions). To my mind, this is because you underestimate the influence of these "marginal" actors and factors.
Ive posted extensively in this thread, with to my mind rational, progressive and valid arguments and deductions, considering as many nuances and factors as I can include, for and against, why the last year has seen such a huge increase in PLEX prices.
I dont think the market has behaved as was to be expected, purely from a natural supply and demand quotient. PLEX price should have dropped. It did not. Instead it increased dramatically over and beyond a whole sequence of many significant factors which each alone should have dropped it, let alone when considered together.
Thats the part where the "underpants gnomes" factor comes in, and economists fail.
You are underestimating the complex factors, decisions and the the sheer market force of significant operators in this environment. That is the reason movers/shakers get rich, whilst economists do not.
PvE v PvP
|
|
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
25126
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 20:12:22 -
[711] - Quote
Aaron wrote:I've come up with some general RL prices for plex types, these are;
Game Time PLEX - -ú9.99 Aurum PLEX - -ú6.99 Skin PLEX - -ú6.99 Character Services PLEX - -ú6.99 Fanfest/Events PLEX - -ú6.99
As I've already said, this will separate the market and give the people who have RL cash to put into Eve lots of products to trade for isk with. All of these products/services I have suggested will sell very well on the in game market.
Edit: revised prices I completely disagree with pretty much everything you've posted in this thread and believe that your assumption of cheaper RL prices equals a cheaper IG price to be naive at best; but I'm going to play devil's advocate here.
Too complicated, you have 4 types of PLEX with the exact same price. You could reduce that to 2 kinds of PLEX, Gametime PLEX and Services PLEX.
Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
|
Aaron
Eternal Frontier
316
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 20:28:16 -
[712] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Aaron wrote:I've come up with some general RL prices for plex types, these are;
Game Time PLEX - -ú9.99 Aurum PLEX - -ú6.99 Skin PLEX - -ú6.99 Character Services PLEX - -ú6.99 Fanfest/Events PLEX - -ú6.99
As I've already said, this will separate the market and give the people who have RL cash to put into Eve lots of products to trade for isk with. All of these products/services I have suggested will sell very well on the in game market.
Edit: revised prices I completely disagree with pretty much everything you've posted in this thread and believe that your assumption of cheaper RL prices equals a cheaper IG price to be naive at best; but I'm going to play devil's advocate here. Too complicated, you have 4 types of PLEX with the exact same price. You could reduce that to 2 kinds of PLEX, Gametime PLEX and Services PLEX.
Game time is a simple product which is needed to be part of the game. I know you'll disagree with this; Skins and Aurum appeal to peoples vanity, character services appeal to people who want an advantage, within character services you can dual train and transfer characters, these services give people an edge within the game if you have lots of real life money to put into Eve then this is for you.
The fact you can buy fanfest and event tickets with plex is realistic and it is a very good product, again, we are using a person who has credit/debit cards to help out someone who does not for an isk reward.
CCP have mixed too many product types into one, and based purely on "I can't afford/be bothered to plex game time" forum replies we can see this is having an effect, no matter how small.
Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
|
Salvos Rhoska
1496
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 20:29:43 -
[713] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Aaron wrote:I've come up with some general RL prices for plex types, these are;
Game Time PLEX - -ú9.99 Aurum PLEX - -ú6.99 Skin PLEX - -ú6.99 Character Services PLEX - -ú6.99 Fanfest/Events PLEX - -ú6.99
Too complicated, you have 4 types of PLEX with the exact same price. You could reduce that to 2 kinds of PLEX, Gametime PLEX and Services PLEX.
This.
Aaron, you basically just stuck the word "PLEX" on a bunch of things.
Its really a bit concerning that even this far down the line, you still dont seem to grasp what PLEX actually is, and what it entails and means to this game system.
If people dont have the money to even buy a sub as is now, they certainly wont buy those either. "Hmm, should I buy a skin I can fly in for 1 more day, or buy a sub to fly another month".
PvE v PvP
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26270
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 20:32:30 -
[714] - Quote
Aaron wrote:I've come up with some general RL prices for plex types, these are; Why? What are you trying to solve? How will this solve your perceived problem?
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
25128
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 20:33:51 -
[715] - Quote
Aaron wrote:
Game time is a simple product which is needed to be part of the game. I know you'll disagree with this; Skins and Aurum appeal to peoples vanity, character services appeal to people who want an advantage, within character services you can dual train and transfer characters, these services give people an edge within the game if you have lots of real life money to put into Eve then this is for you.
The fact you can buy fanfest and event tickets with plex is realistic and it is a very good product, again, we are using a person who has credit/debit cards to help out someone who does not for an isk reward.
And you'd be wrong, your summation is correct. It's your assumptions I take umbrage to.
Quote:CCP have mixed too many product types into one, and based purely on "I can't afford/be bothered to plex game time" forum replies we cant see this is having an effect, no matter how small. So you propose the exact opposite by needlessly complicating things with no less than 5 different kinds of PLEX with four of them, which cover things that are services beyond gametime, having the same price point?
You can't disregard the potential loss of revenue for CCP that your scheme may incur, especially if it failed to increase the sale of (insert type of) PLEX enough to cover the difference.
Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
|
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
362
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 20:53:22 -
[716] - Quote
R3DRUM wrote:I love plex prices! its nice to know most of eve are real life poor. Once a week I sell a plex fit 20 ships and pvp all week. I dont have to PVE at all. Keep rising PLEX prices! I'm happy for you, more ppl do the same, prices will fall. You happy that some ppl are real life poor?
"(...) I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas (...)"
|
Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
8623
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 20:55:27 -
[717] - Quote
Bring back the workhouses for all I care, Jeremiah
[b]----
CONCORD arrested two n00bs yesterday, one was drinking battery acid, the other was eating fireworks. They charged one and let the other one off.[/b]
|
Algarion Getz
Aideron Corp
70
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 21:21:56 -
[718] - Quote
Aaron wrote: Ok, I think we are getting somewhere with this. The price increases are due to all the other items/services PLEX can provide. PLEX can be used for the following;
Game Time Aurum Skins Dual Character Training Fanfest tickets and other Events
See the problem here? I think we need to go back to the old school and make PLEX about game time only, I don't think we can continue with the PLEX being used for other things. If you can afford a Skin you should be able to buy it (Skin alone and nothing else) from CCP and either use it yourself or put it on the market for isk. If there is a separation between the extra services that CCP can provide I am sure that we will see the true value of all of the above items/services.
If one is interested in paying for game time only with isk then one should be able to do that without having to pay extra isk value for other items/services that they are not interested in using. To me this sounds fair and reasonable. What do you guys think?
You forgot a few uses: * You could buy the collectors edition with 12 PLEX for quite some time. * Donations for charity are also done with PLEX (6910 PLEX were donated to the last charity in May.) * Probably the most popular use: PLEX as gold. (Some rich players hoard thousands of PLEX as gold reserve.)
Its just stupid that PLEX has so many other uses. This drives up the price and quite a few players quit because of it. Everyone with little bit of brain knows that loosing active players is terrible for EVE. (The more players, the better the sandbox.) Average active players decreased by almost 50% in the last year. Im not saying that high PLEX prices are the only cause for the decline, but they definitely make the decline worse.
In my opinion, RL PLEX price should be reduced to the price of a sub and PLEX should be used for gametime and nothing else. Give PLEX a limited validity period, i.e. 3 months, to prevent hoarding as gold reserve. |
Zihao
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
133
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 21:27:00 -
[719] - Quote
Yeah, how dare people spend their in-game and cash money on things they want! They should be forced to subsidize me instead! |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3378
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 21:32:02 -
[720] - Quote
You have made a fatal flaw in your analysis, IMO. In fact, 2 fatal flaws.
Your RL PLEX is not like PLEX we are dicussing here. First off, if I don't get a PLEX in game I don't die in game, at least not necessarily. I have the option of switching to the lower cost option of paying the subscription itself. Second of all, if I do "die" as in stop playing that is a bit less serious than dropping over dead in RL. RL things like that tend to have a very inelastic demand--i.e. price is not going to have a significant effect in terms of changing (the quantity) demanded. For example, this graph shows the problem. The (perfectly) inelastic demand (the red line) leads to the same quantity, Qe, at both prices P1 and P2. Whereas the blue demand curve when the price goes from P1 to P2 the quantity goes from Q1 to Q2.
So your RL example does not have a substitute...substitutes tend to make demand more elastic. Second of all the consequences are much less severe than your RL example. This too tends to make demand more elastic. Luxury goods, for example, tend have more elastic demand curves.
As for things like market manipulation bia buying up PLEX there is always a problem...it can often be self defeating. Lets say a guy has lots of ISK and tries to manipulate the PLEX market. As he starts buying up PLEX he'll drive up the price, but that means continuing the manipulation becomes increasingly more costly.
For example, if I could buy up say, 100 PLEX at the low cost of 800 million ISK each or 80 billion and drive the price up to 1.2 billion I'd make 40 billion. But the price wont stay at 800 million, at the end the last PLEX I buy will likely be pretty much 1.2 billion--i.e. I made no profit on that last PLEX. Very little on the PLEX bought before that and so forth.
And if I start selling them and try to do it fast to capitalize on the higher price the price will drop. And if I start a big sell off by other PLEX holders (i.e. people who are speculating on the PLEX market) then the price could drop faster than you can dump them and end up taking a significant loss.
And speculators are rarely the source of a sustained increase in the price of something. Speculators in real life can buy and sell and can even sell short. These activities will result in both price increases and decreases.
And I don't see why the price of PLEX should have dropped? We have increased demand in game due to things like skins, the NEX store and the like. We may very well have reduced demand in the RL market with less players...which reduces the supply in game. That too would lead to a price increase.
As for this:
Quote:You are underestimating the complex factors, decisions and the the sheer market force of significant operators in this environment.
I'll be blunt. You have nothing supporting this. You have no story, no evidence no nothing. Trying to tear down my story/argument is not an argument for your position In fact, I'll go even further, it is intellectually bankrupt. If you think that somebody is manipulating the market...how? Many times market manipulation is done by means that are designed to disrupt the normal operations of a market in an artificial or misleading way. So the idea of buying up lots of PLEX to drive up the price really isn't even market manipulation.
For example, if had a bunch of PLEX and I started a rumor that CCP was going to stop selling PLEX...or that they were going to raise the price. Went around to a bunch of forums posting this. Put it out there on twitter and reddit. If I wanted to be really clever I might try to get my hands on some CCP letter head and gin up a fake "internal" memo or a screen shot of somebody's e-mail. Anything to add some degree of credibility to my rumor. Maybe me and some buddies are doing this. Then when people buy PLEX in game before the in game price goes up I start selling when I think prices are nearing their peak. That would be market manipulation. I'm getting others to drive up the price via buying ISK based on the false information I put out there and I cash in on it.
So come up with something besides attacking explanations you do not like and vague bromides about these market operators.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3378
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 21:33:21 -
[721] - Quote
Zihao wrote:Yeah, how dare people spend their in-game and cash money on things they want! They should be forced to subsidize me instead!
What, ridiculous. They should subsidize me.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
40312
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 21:37:28 -
[722] - Quote
Zihao wrote:Yeah, how dare people spend their in-game and cash money on things they want! They should be forced to subsidize me instead! This.
Apparently only PLEX users have a right to value and they shouldn't have to do too much to achieve it.
PLEX sellers, they're just evil people and don't deserve value for their money.
I'm certainly glad CCP doesn't share that view.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
|
Aaron
Eternal Frontier
316
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 21:40:51 -
[723] - Quote
Algarion Getz wrote:Aaron wrote: Ok, I think we are getting somewhere with this. The price increases are due to all the other items/services PLEX can provide. PLEX can be used for the following;
Game Time Aurum Skins Dual Character Training Fanfest tickets and other Events
See the problem here? I think we need to go back to the old school and make PLEX about game time only, I don't think we can continue with the PLEX being used for other things. If you can afford a Skin you should be able to buy it (Skin alone and nothing else) from CCP and either use it yourself or put it on the market for isk. If there is a separation between the extra services that CCP can provide I am sure that we will see the true value of all of the above items/services.
If one is interested in paying for game time only with isk then one should be able to do that without having to pay extra isk value for other items/services that they are not interested in using. To me this sounds fair and reasonable. What do you guys think?
You forgot a few uses: * You could buy the collectors edition with 12 PLEX for quite some time. * Donations for charity are also done with PLEX (6910 PLEX were donated to the last charity in May.) * Probably the most popular use: PLEX as gold. (Some rich players hoard thousands of PLEX as gold reserve.) Its just stupid that PLEX has so many other uses. This drives up the price and quite a few players quit because of it. Everyone with little bit of brain knows that loosing active players is terrible for EVE. (The more players, the better the sandbox.) Average active players decreased by almost 50% in the last year. Im not saying that high PLEX prices are the only cause for the decline, but they definitely make the decline worse. In my opinion, RL PLEX price should be reduced to the price of a sub and PLEX should be used for gametime and nothing else. Give PLEX a limited validity period, i.e. 3 months, to prevent hoarding as gold reserve.
Nice to chat with someone on my wavelength, it's refreshing. I definately feel there should be investigation into this, the further uses I forgot are also important.
Based on my suggestion any of the PLEX could still be used to give to charity because they are all purchased with RL money.
Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
|
Aaron
Eternal Frontier
316
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 21:45:47 -
[724] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Aaron wrote:
Game time is a simple product which is needed to be part of the game. I know you'll disagree with this; Skins and Aurum appeal to peoples vanity, character services appeal to people who want an advantage, within character services you can dual train and transfer characters, these services give people an edge within the game if you have lots of real life money to put into Eve then this is for you.
The fact you can buy fanfest and event tickets with plex is realistic and it is a very good product, again, we are using a person who has credit/debit cards to help out someone who does not for an isk reward.
And you'd be wrong, your summation is correct. It's your assumptions I take umbrage to. Quote:CCP have mixed too many product types into one, and based purely on "I can't afford/be bothered to plex game time" forum replies we cant see this is having an effect, no matter how small. So you propose the exact opposite by needlessly complicating things with no less than 5 different kinds of PLEX with four of them, which cover things that are services beyond gametime, having the same price point? You can't disregard the potential loss of revenue for CCP that your scheme may incur, especially if it failed to increase the sale of (insert type of) PLEX enough to cover the difference.
Having separate product types that each relate to different things is complicated? Listen, If I want a PLEX for isk then I should be able to buy one at the optimal value of whatever game time is worth, I seriously wouldn't be looking to pay for the vanity and advantage value because that value is of no use to me, only the game time plex would be of use to me.
You see it backwards, having one product type for everything is complicated.
Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26272
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 21:49:52 -
[725] - Quote
Call options aren't very complicated.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3380
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 21:56:48 -
[726] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Zihao wrote:Yeah, how dare people spend their in-game and cash money on things they want! They should be forced to subsidize me instead! This. Apparently only PLEX users have a right to value and they shouldn't have to do too much to achieve it. PLEX sellers, they're just evil people and don't deserve value for their money. I'm certainly glad CCP doesn't share that view.
I have made this point repeatedly. A subscription is $14.95 (you can get it down somewhere in the $12 range if you buy a year in advance). If you are getting paid $14.95/hour then unless you really love grinding for ISK or have a way to make ISK while largely AFK you are doing it wrong if you are spending more than a hour grinding ISK.
You know that argument how your minerals are not free if you mine them? Yeah, same concept.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Salvos Rhoska
1497
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 21:57:33 -
[727] - Quote
Explain why PLEX price has risen, (over and beyond several sequential factors/interventions that should themselves have reduced price) despite reduction in account activity, which rationally should reduce demand, against, as you posited, the same reduction in account activity that has also resulted in less RLM PLEX introduction, as commensurately reducing supply.
As to explanations of my position, search this thread with my name, and you will find I have addressed them at great length. All of your questions to me are already answered there (and I say this without cause to accusation of intellectual dishonesty. Ive already answered them previously. You are late to the discussion, and apparently have not read them. Nott repeating myself does not constitute dishonesty).
PvE v PvP
|
Divine Entervention
Legion's Knights Of The Round Intrepid Crossing
619
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 22:00:35 -
[728] - Quote
Alliance tournament ISK niagara falls. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26273
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 22:01:46 -
[729] - Quote
Divine Entervention wrote:Alliance tournament ISK niagara falls. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Word_salad
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
Aaron
Eternal Frontier
316
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 22:02:57 -
[730] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Call options aren't very complicated.
/me rubs eyes in disbelief, Tippia are you agreeing with me?
Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
|
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26273
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 22:05:49 -
[731] - Quote
Aaron wrote:/me rubs eyes in disbelief, Tippia are you agreeing with me? No. You're stating the opposite.
You are suggesting that GÇ£having one product type for everything is complicatedGÇ¥. It's not. It's just a call option, and call options are not complicated. What you're suggesting GÇö what effectively amounts to half a dozen different currencies, each dedicated to a single service GÇö is pointlessly complicated and doesn't address any kind of articulated problem.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3380
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 22:08:45 -
[732] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Explain why PLEX price has risen, (over and beyond several sequential factors/interventions that should themselves have reduced price) despite reduction in account activity, which rationally should reduce demand, against, as you posited, the same reduction in account activity that has also resulted in less RLM PLEX introduction, commensurately reducing supply.
RL purchases are down. IG purchase are up because of things like skins. I had a post that detailed all of that...back on page 28 IIRC.
And we did see a price drop awhile ago. When CCP banned multiplexing/broadcasting with ISBoxer, the price of PLEX did go down as people stopped using them so much and IG dropped. The price stabilized around 800 millionish for some time.
Look at the time series data around November 2014. PLEX Prices hit about 935 million, then dropped and were pretty flat for about 4 months moving around 800 million. And oh look, on November 25 2014 CCP Falcon made his post about ISBoxer and similar programs.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Aaron
Eternal Frontier
316
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 22:09:41 -
[733] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Aaron wrote:/me rubs eyes in disbelief, Tippia are you agreeing with me? No. You're stating the opposite. You are suggesting that GÇ£having one product type for everything is complicatedGÇ¥. It's not. It's just a call option, and call options are not complicated. What you're suggesting GÇö what effectively amounts to half a dozen different currencies, each dedicated to a single service GÇö is pointlessly complicated and doesn't address any kind of articulated problem.
Game time = Needed to play the game Skins = Vanity for people who want to show off and look cool
Please explain why one has to pay vanity cost when that isn't what they're interested in?
Is this how you would operate a RL business?
Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26273
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 22:12:37 -
[734] - Quote
Aaron wrote:Game time = Needed to play the game Skins = Vanity for people who want to show off and look cool
Please explain why one has to pay vanity cost when that isn't what they're interested in? You don't.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
Aaron
Eternal Frontier
316
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 22:12:44 -
[735] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:Explain why PLEX price has risen, (over and beyond several sequential factors/interventions that should themselves have reduced price) despite reduction in account activity, which rationally should reduce demand, against, as you posited, the same reduction in account activity that has also resulted in less RLM PLEX introduction, commensurately reducing supply. RL purchases are down. IG purchase are up because of things like skins. I had a post that detailed all of that...back on page 28 IIRC. And we did see a price drop awhile ago. When CCP banned multiplexing/broadcasting with ISBoxer, the price of PLEX did go down as people stopped using them so much and IG dropped. The price stabilized around 800 millionish for some time. Look at the time series data around November 2014. PLEX Prices hit about 935 million, then dropped and were pretty flat for about 4 months moving around 800 million. And oh look, on November 25 2014 CCP Falcon made his post about ISBoxer and similar programs.
You are right with your comparisons Teckos, the numbers can't lie they simply are what they are. A few people would still try to disagree with this statement.
Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
|
Aaron
Eternal Frontier
316
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 22:18:18 -
[736] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Aaron wrote:Game time = Needed to play the game Skins = Vanity for people who want to show off and look cool
Please explain why one has to pay vanity cost when that isn't what they're interested in? You don't.
Right, so skins have no isk value alone then? If this is the case why do we have to pay RL money for them?
Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26273
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 22:20:39 -
[737] - Quote
Aaron wrote:Right, so skins have no isk value alone then? If this is the case why do we have to pay RL money for them? You answered your own question quite nicely there.
And again, what you're asking for already exists in the game, but in a non-stupid not-nearly-as-stupid form
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
614
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 22:25:28 -
[738] - Quote
Aaron wrote:[quote=Tippia]
Game time = Needed to play the game Skins = Vanity for people who want to show off and look cool
Please explain why one has to pay vanity cost when that isn't what they're interested in?
Is this how you would operate a RL business?
If this was the case, costs would still be the same. Why? Cause of a simple thing. People put a quantity of isk onto an item. If no items were at that players minimum, they would not sell one. So lets say that 1b is that magic number of supply and demand. If plex is the highest, nobody will sell vanity ones until vanity reached that one bil, etc. If vanity was higher, people would stop selling plex.
Splitting them up will not change the market at all because the supplies will be split. Fewer plexes being bought, but once the prices level out for isk per dollar, it will end up just being the same place.
To quote Lfod Shi
The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
|
Aaron
Eternal Frontier
316
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 22:30:51 -
[739] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Aaron wrote:Right, so skins have no isk value alone then? If this is the case why do we have to pay RL money for them? You answered your own question quite nicely there. And again, what you're asking for already exists in the game, but in a non-stupid not-nearly-as-stupid form
Ship skins info
Hmm, so CCP listened to the players regarding the desire for paint customization's, then they did a ship painting pilot program which was a success and then proceeded to make Skins a product that they sell. In the link I provided CCP themselves say skins have a value because people desire it.
It seems difficult to converse with you Tippia, you're not prepared to accept anything.
Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26274
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 22:37:39 -
[740] - Quote
Aaron wrote:Hmm, so CCP listened to the players regarding the desire for paint customization's, then they did a ship painting pilot program which was a success and then proceeded to make Skins a product that they sell. In the link I provided CCP themselves say skins have a value because people desire it. GǪand?
You still don't have to pay any kind of vanity cost if you're not interested in it.
Quote:It seems difficult to converse with you Tippia, you're not prepared to accept anything. I accept evidence, logic, solid argumentation, proof GÇö stuff you are fundamentally incapable of providing.
All you have is assumption, speculation, wishful thinking, and a an almost complete lack of coherence and cogency, as well as of even a fairly basic understanding of the game.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
|
Bagrat Skalski
Poseidaon
9805
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 22:39:22 -
[741] - Quote
Quote:skins have a value because people desire it I am afraid CCP doesnt know where to find a point where the "value" meets "desire" so they can shake hands for a lot of players.
Custom ship skins, character creator style "repaint". Bring it!
|
Aaron
Eternal Frontier
316
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 22:44:13 -
[742] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Aaron wrote:Hmm, so CCP listened to the players regarding the desire for paint customization's, then they did a ship painting pilot program which was a success and then proceeded to make Skins a product that they sell. In the link I provided CCP themselves say skins have a value because people desire it. GǪand? You still don't have to pay any kind of vanity cost if you're not interested in it. Quote:It seems difficult to converse with you Tippia, you're not prepared to accept anything. I accept evidence, logic, solid argumentation, proof GÇö stuff you are fundamentally incapable to provide. All you have is assumption, speculation, wishful thinking, and a an almost complete lack of coherence and cogency.
I provided a link to CCP's website that features what actions were taken in order to bring skins into the game. My info came stright from the horses mouth. Unlike you I pay attention to what's happening and have a solid understanding of what I am talking about.
CCP and some of the player base put work into bringing skins into existence, Skins are being used, I know they are not free, so guess what they have a value. Grow up and accept this.
Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
|
Divine Entervention
Legion's Knights Of The Round Intrepid Crossing
619
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 22:50:31 -
[743] - Quote
plex price increased around 25% right after the alliance tournament. It went up 10% during the alliance tournament.
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26274
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 22:50:52 -
[744] - Quote
Aaron wrote:I provided a link to CCP's website that GǪdoesn't say anything relevant. It offers no data, no evidence, no logic, no argumentation, no proof. You know, the things I just listed that you would need to provide?
Quote:My info came stright from the horses mouth. Your GÇ£infoGÇ¥ is a game feature description. It holds no information about the market. As such, it is not info. In fact, it explicitly says that there isn't sufficient data yet.
Quote:Unlike you I pay attention to what's happening and have a solid understanding of what I am talking about. No. If you were paying attention, you would have noticed what I said. If you had a solid understanding, you would have noticed that the PR you offered didn't match. If you were capable of either, you wouldn't rely on baseless and spurious speculation.
Quote:Skins are being used, I know they are not free, so guess what they have a value. That was never in question. Like always, you just didn't pay attention and failed to understand this.
Before this, you've exhibited gross misunderstanding of how markets work, how PLEX work, how AUR works, how the account services work, how the EVE economy works, how logic works, and more recently how a very basic financial instrument works. Hell, at this point, I'm not even sure you understand how currency works.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
Aaron
Eternal Frontier
316
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 23:03:13 -
[745] - Quote
I think you're a teenage boy, you still live at home with mum and dad and you think you know how the world works which you haven't even experienced it yet.
Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1589
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 23:03:43 -
[746] - Quote
Aaron wrote:Having separate product types that each relate to different things is complicated? Listen, If I want a PLEX for isk then I should be able to buy one at the optimal value of whatever game time is worth, I seriously wouldn't be looking to pay for the vanity and advantage value because that value is of no use to me, only the game time plex would be of use to me.
You see it backwards, having one product type for everything is complicated. That makes very little sense from any standpoint in PLEX transfer.
Buying from CCP only offers 1 item rather than several eliminating a series of individual PLEX type evaluations.
Buying in game offers 1 item which can be used, or consumed as needed, eliminating market complications for differing currencies and accidental wrong purchases.
Even the notion of vanity pricing is flawed because if people looked at the best return for RL currency that would still be an issue as that would just ensure fewer of the less isk valued variations of PLEX we purchased to place on the in game market, likely contributing to further in game price increases.
The whole idea is a no win. |
Aaron
Eternal Frontier
316
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 23:05:47 -
[747] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Aaron wrote:Having separate product types that each relate to different things is complicated? Listen, If I want a PLEX for isk then I should be able to buy one at the optimal value of whatever game time is worth, I seriously wouldn't be looking to pay for the vanity and advantage value because that value is of no use to me, only the game time plex would be of use to me.
You see it backwards, having one product type for everything is complicated. That makes very little sense from any standpoint in PLEX transfer. Buying from CCP only offers 1 item rather than several eliminating a series of individual PLEX type evaluations. Buying in game offers 1 item which can be used, or consumed as needed, eliminating market complications for differing currencies and accidental wrong purchases. Even the notion of vanity pricing is flawed because if people looked at the best return for RL currency that would still be an issue as that would just ensure fewer of the less isk valued variations of PLEX we purchased to place on the in game market, likely contributing to further in game price increases. The whole idea is a no win.
Ok cool, CCP should just leave things as they are and accept the loss of valued customers who want to plex with isk for game time.
Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1589
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 23:07:33 -
[748] - Quote
Aaron wrote:Ok cool, CCP should just leave things as they are and accept the loss of valued customers who want to plex with isk for game time. Yes, they should keep from exasperating the issue further encouraging even worse fluctuations and manipulations in a fragmented system driving more people out.
Glad we agree.
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26274
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 23:08:42 -
[749] - Quote
Aaron wrote:I think you're a teenage boy I think you have no evidence, reasoning, or argumentation to support your case, which is why you so adamantly refuse to provide any and instead rely on fallacies to pick up the insurmountable amount of slack.
You have no idea about anything. This is the only thing you've managed to prove beyond any reasonable doubt.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
Aaron
Eternal Frontier
316
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 23:13:22 -
[750] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Aaron wrote:I think you're a teenage boy I think you have no evidence, reasoning, or argumentation to support your case, which is why you so adamantly refuse to provide any and instead rely on fallacies to pick up the insurmountable amount of slack. You have no idea about anything. This is the only thing you've managed to prove beyond any reasonable doubt.
Lol, I could imagine you as a RL market trader not taking anything that happens or general customer feedback into consideration. Guess what buddy, these are some of the things a real life trader does.
23 billion was wiped off of the value of the RL car manufacturer Volkswagen, was this due to nothing? No. Is it difficult to find out why it happened? No.
Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
|
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26274
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 23:18:36 -
[751] - Quote
Aaron wrote:abloo abloo abloo Do you have any facts, data, evidence, logic, argumentation, models, or other proof to present in support of your stance? Or do you only have fallacies?
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
Aaron
Eternal Frontier
316
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 23:21:48 -
[752] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Aaron wrote:abloo abloo abloo Do you have any facts, data, evidence, logic, argumentation, models, or other proof to present in support of your stance? Or do you only have fallacies?
I feel like I'm looking in the mirror, I was just like you when I was a young lad.
Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26274
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 23:23:14 -
[753] - Quote
Aaron wrote:abloo abloo abloo Do you have any facts, data, evidence, logic, argumentation, models, or other proof to present in support of your stance? Or do you only have an ever increasing pile of fallacies that further prove me right?
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
Paranoid Loyd
7001
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 23:27:26 -
[754] - Quote
Aaron wrote:I feel like I'm looking in the mirror, I was just like you when I was a young lad. So how did you manage lose all your logic and knowledge?
"Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata
Fix the Prospect!
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1589
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 23:27:43 -
[755] - Quote
Aaron wrote:I feel like I'm looking in the mirror, I was just like you when I was a young lad. You should stop this thing you are doing. It's not on topic, not defending your position, not contributing to the conversation, and not actually making anyone but yourself look bad. |
Divine Entervention
Legion's Knights Of The Round Intrepid Crossing
619
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 23:32:29 -
[756] - Quote
That's just his opinion.
You're fine. |
Aaron
Eternal Frontier
316
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 23:35:35 -
[757] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Aaron wrote:I feel like I'm looking in the mirror, I was just like you when I was a young lad. You should stop this thing you are doing. It's not on topic, not defending your position, not contributing to the conversation, and not actually making anyone but yourself look bad.
Sorry I had to get a few digs in before the ISD comes with his virtual and righteous scissors.
Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
|
Zihao
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
134
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 23:36:27 -
[758] - Quote
Its just my opinion that you should pay all or some portion of my monthly subscription. Not doing so, in my opinion, would be unjust and unfair as I have become accustomed to this treatment.
Please everyone take this opinion seriously or I will be forced to resort to non-sequitur statements and ad hom. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
26278
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 23:37:41 -
[759] - Quote
Aaron wrote:Sorry, I had to get a few digs in before the ISD comes with his virtual and righteous scissors. Too bad that you failed at that as badly as you did at providing any kind of support for your stance.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
|
Divine Entervention
Legion's Knights Of The Round Intrepid Crossing
620
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 23:41:56 -
[760] - Quote
Threads like these are proof why you shouldn't vaccinate your kids.
They make kids artistic.
|
|
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
616
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 23:48:55 -
[761] - Quote
To hopefully break up Aaron and Tippi's spat (They do converse just like a married couple) It is interesting how plex prices work. It is pretty fantastic economics. Commodity trading. Isk to plex, and plex back to isk or consumed for a use. People buy plex with the commodity they receive from real world work to get plex. Said isk then has a value to real world work. I just find it fastinating. Person works, they mentally value their time to isk, compare it with said tokens they get for work and thus convert it to plex. People then invest same work directly into eve for isk to get plex. They now have put value on their time.
Result is a proportional trade of real world man hours. Kind of interesting the comparison. Plex seller is willing to give up some of the working time in exhange for more recreational time. Buyers place a value on their rec time compared to their working time. Would be interesting to calculate current exchange of working time to recreational time of buyers to sellers and the value they place on their time.
To quote Lfod Shi
The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
|
Yang Aurilen
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
897
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 00:12:01 -
[762] - Quote
Can we all just agree with aaron without actually meaning it already? It's more productive now a this point to let him hear what he wants to hear than argue with him.
I'll start:
Yes aaron right oh yes he totally knows what he's saying yeah let's all agree with him.
Post with your NPC alt main and not your main main alt!
|
Cancel Align NOW
Maas Industries
593
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 00:22:05 -
[763] - Quote
Alas Yang, I hit reply with the intent of going along with your Aaronicde. I can not bring myself to follow through. |
Market McSelling Alt
Bernie Madoff Investment Services LLC
614
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 00:23:17 -
[764] - Quote
Cancel Align NOW wrote:Alas Yang, I hit reply with the intent of going along with your Aaronicde. I can not bring myself to follow through.
Is that compassion I detect?!
Best description of Eve Online and why the community is the way it is
|
Cancel Align NOW
Maas Industries
594
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 00:40:57 -
[765] - Quote
Market McSelling Alt wrote:Cancel Align NOW wrote:Alas Yang, I hit reply with the intent of going along with your Aaronicde. I can not bring myself to follow through. Is that compassion I detect?!
It was a reaction to the bile rising up my throat. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3382
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 02:52:22 -
[766] - Quote
Markus Reese wrote:To hopefully break up Aaron and Tippi's spat (They do converse just like a married couple) It is interesting how plex prices work. It is pretty fantastic economics. Commodity trading. Isk to plex, and plex back to isk or consumed for a use. People buy plex with the commodity they receive from real world work to get plex.
[snip]
No, people who buy PLEX buy it with fiat currency not commodities.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Aaron
Eternal Frontier
316
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 03:08:14 -
[767] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Markus Reese wrote:To hopefully break up Aaron and Tippi's spat (They do converse just like a married couple) It is interesting how plex prices work. It is pretty fantastic economics. Commodity trading. Isk to plex, and plex back to isk or consumed for a use. People buy plex with the commodity they receive from real world work to get plex.
[snip] No, people who buy PLEX buy it with fiat currency not commodities.
Currency is a commodity and traded world wide. Google "Forex"
Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3382
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 03:54:06 -
[768] - Quote
Aaron wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Markus Reese wrote:To hopefully break up Aaron and Tippi's spat (They do converse just like a married couple) It is interesting how plex prices work. It is pretty fantastic economics. Commodity trading. Isk to plex, and plex back to isk or consumed for a use. People buy plex with the commodity they receive from real world work to get plex.
[snip] No, people who buy PLEX buy it with fiat currency not commodities. Currency is a commodity and traded world wide. Google "Forex"
No, currency is NOT a commodity. Currencies these days are fiat currencies--i.e. they have no real intrinsic value. They only have value because the government says they have value and people believe it.
All modern currencies can be described as IOU nothings.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Skeln Thargensen
katana spelunking trips
592
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 13:04:48 -
[769] - Quote
if anyone wants to send me their worthless fiat currency (which is a massive fire risk btw) PM me for my k-space postal address.
forums. -áserious business.
|
Isajah
Industrial Command Lux Aetherna
4
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 13:21:39 -
[770] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:No, currency is NOT a commodity. Currencies these days are fiat currencies--i.e. they have no real intrinsic value. They only have value because the government says they have value and people believe it. All modern currencies can be described as IOU nothings.
not because government tells you; because we all agree to that a specific currency is worth anything. the moment a seller does accepts or does not accept a specific currency, it has value or not.
|
|
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
25139
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 14:28:40 -
[771] - Quote
Aaron wrote:I think you're a teenage boy, you still live at home with mum and dad and you think you know how the world works which you haven't even experienced yet. Irony.
Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
|
Zihao
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
149
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 14:36:36 -
[772] - Quote
Isajah wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:No, currency is NOT a commodity. Currencies these days are fiat currencies--i.e. they have no real intrinsic value. They only have value because the government says they have value and people believe it. All modern currencies can be described as IOU nothings. not because government tells you; because we all agree to that a specific currency is worth anything. the moment a seller does accepts or does not accept a specific currency, it has value or not.
Functionally the same considering legal tender laws. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3384
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 15:34:49 -
[773] - Quote
Zihao wrote:Isajah wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:No, currency is NOT a commodity. Currencies these days are fiat currencies--i.e. they have no real intrinsic value. They only have value because the government says they have value and people believe it. All modern currencies can be described as IOU nothings. not because government tells you; because we all agree to that a specific currency is worth anything. the moment a seller does accepts or does not accept a specific currency, it has value or not. Functionally the same considering legal tender laws.
The legal tender thing is rather important. While there are some cryptocurrencies that are fiat money (e.g. BitCoin) but it still has to get approval from the government (it is considered a virtual currency in the U.S. and there were a number of instances where the government has acted as if BitCoin were a currency).
Governments like having their monopoly position when it comes to money and their role in the banking industry...typically because it lets them finance government activities. Banks, depending on the country and the banking system, can work to raise money for the government (basically like taxes) or can be used to promote policies indirectly where direct promotion would be much more difficult. For example, if you want to encourage home ownership a great way to do it is via the banking system as it looks like it has little cost in term of the government's budget. Of course there is a problem here in that what looks like a "free lunch" is anything but. For example, to often get this kind of a change government will implicitly promise to bail out banks and/or cover higher mortgage default rates....this can lead to a moral hazard problem which can be quite costly as we saw here.
In the case of a currency crisis things tend to go out the window. The government has basically lost its credibility at maintaining a stable money supply and people then turn to another alternative (for example in Zimbabwe it is my understanding most people use U.S. dollars).
Anyhow, this is getting quite far from the topic of PLEX prices.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Zihao
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
151
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 19:11:52 -
[774] - Quote
You must make your last payment in wampum. |
Otso Bakarti
Filial Pariahs
305
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 19:27:41 -
[775] - Quote
It's like the currency in some places. It's not that the prices are going up so fast. It's that the money is losing its value so fast. You have to raise the price just to make the same amount of money as before.
Simple math. Something economists fail to employ.
Back from the 90-day suspension for speaking truth to power.
|
Zihao
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
152
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 19:44:59 -
[776] - Quote
Something something multi-trillion sword of Damocles. Something something 0% forever. |
Cidanel Afuran
Chickenhawk.
243
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 19:56:21 -
[777] - Quote
Aaron wrote:Currency is a commodity and traded world wide. Google "Forex"
From an investment standpoint, currency is not considered to trade in commodity markets. The commodity market is simply the trading of products that are not manufactured in any way.
Currency can be (and is) manipulated through interest rate adjustments, issuing/buying back securities, and adjusting minimum reserve requirements.
Commodities can not be manipulated like that.
Could Japan manipulate the price of copper the same as it is currently manipulating the Yen? |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3387
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 20:19:13 -
[778] - Quote
Otso Bakarti wrote:It's like the currency in some places. It's not that the prices are going up so fast. It's that the money is losing its value so fast. You have to raise the price just to make the same amount of money as before.
Simple math. Something economists fail to employ.
Yeah economists don't do math.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Aaron
Eternal Frontier
316
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 20:33:02 -
[779] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Aaron wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Markus Reese wrote:To hopefully break up Aaron and Tippi's spat (They do converse just like a married couple) It is interesting how plex prices work. It is pretty fantastic economics. Commodity trading. Isk to plex, and plex back to isk or consumed for a use. People buy plex with the commodity they receive from real world work to get plex.
[snip] No, people who buy PLEX buy it with fiat currency not commodities. Currency is a commodity and traded world wide. Google "Forex" No, currency is NOT a commodity. Currencies these days are fiat currencies--i.e. they have no real intrinsic value. They only have value because the government says they have value and people believe it. All modern currencies can be described as IOU nothings.
How do you describe the act of trading one currency against another?
Money combats the inability to trade unlike skill sets or goods in barter, We are given fiat money yes I agree, It does hold value because we use it to pay our bills. I agree that it has no underlying value.
If I've got -ú100,000 and I want to trade it's value against another currency then I've got 100,000 commodities.
Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3388
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 21:05:08 -
[780] - Quote
Aaron wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Aaron wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Markus Reese wrote:To hopefully break up Aaron and Tippi's spat (They do converse just like a married couple) It is interesting how plex prices work. It is pretty fantastic economics. Commodity trading. Isk to plex, and plex back to isk or consumed for a use. People buy plex with the commodity they receive from real world work to get plex.
[snip] No, people who buy PLEX buy it with fiat currency not commodities. Currency is a commodity and traded world wide. Google "Forex" No, currency is NOT a commodity. Currencies these days are fiat currencies--i.e. they have no real intrinsic value. They only have value because the government says they have value and people believe it. All modern currencies can be described as IOU nothings. How do you describe the act of trading one currency against another? Money combats the inability to trade unlike skill sets or goods in barter, We are given fiat money yes I agree, It does hold value because we use it to pay our bills. I agree that it has no underlying value. If I've got -ú100,000 and I want to trade it's value against another currency then I've got 100,000 commodities.
Trading one IOU-nothing for another IOU-nothing.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
|
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1529
|
Posted - 2015.09.24 23:59:33 -
[781] - Quote
Cidanel Afuran wrote:
Could Japan manipulate the price of copper the same as it is currently manipulating the Yen?
Individual countries probably will struggle.
But try telling De Beers or OPEC you cannot manipulate a commodity price.
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3388
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 00:11:37 -
[782] - Quote
Hasikan Miallok wrote:Cidanel Afuran wrote:
Could Japan manipulate the price of copper the same as it is currently manipulating the Yen?
Individual countries probably will struggle. But try telling De Beers or OPEC you cannot manipulate a commodity price.
Sure you can form a cartel and try to influence the price of anything really. All firms would love to have more monopoly power than less.
The point was that a country can manipulate its own currency with considerable ease relatively speaking.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
627
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 00:36:44 -
[783] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Markus Reese wrote:To hopefully break up Aaron and Tippi's spat (They do converse just like a married couple) It is interesting how plex prices work. It is pretty fantastic economics. Commodity trading. Isk to plex, and plex back to isk or consumed for a use. People buy plex with the commodity they receive from real world work to get plex.
[snip] No, people who buy PLEX buy it with fiat currency not commodities.
Time is the commodity. I am selling my time for X dollars. A plex is worth 20 dollars which translates into a quantity of my time spent. As my earnings differ from others, that makes its value different. As such, I trade my time for a specific unit of isk. People spend said time for said isk. therefore as a commodity, I trade my time for your time if you are willing to pay.
To quote Lfod Shi
The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
|
Zihao
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
155
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 00:59:49 -
[784] - Quote
You're both right. Time is being exchange for cash indirectly through the mediums of isk and PLEX respectively. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3389
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 01:50:25 -
[785] - Quote
Markus Reese wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Markus Reese wrote:To hopefully break up Aaron and Tippi's spat (They do converse just like a married couple) It is interesting how plex prices work. It is pretty fantastic economics. Commodity trading. Isk to plex, and plex back to isk or consumed for a use. People buy plex with the commodity they receive from real world work to get plex.
[snip] No, people who buy PLEX buy it with fiat currency not commodities. Time is the commodity. I am selling my time for X dollars. A plex is worth 20 dollars which translates into a quantity of my time spent. As my earnings differ from others, that makes its value different. As such, I trade my time for a specific unit of isk. People spend said time for said isk. therefore as a commodity, I trade my time for your time if you are willing to pay.
I would not say that time is a commodity more that is has value. After all you cannot sell me extra hours for a given day, week, or even my life. But an employer who would like me to spend time helping him do something that can make him even more money will be willing to pay me for some of my time/labor.
And yes, you are correct a PLEX is worth $20 (for simplicity's sake lets just round up). If you have to spend 20 hours in game grinding to buy a PLEX then your implicit wage is $1/hour. Now maybe you really, really like grinding and you'd happily pay $2/hour to do it...in which case 20 hours of grinding and buying a PLEX makes sense. If not, then pay $15/month directly and spend far, far less time grinding.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3389
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 01:57:36 -
[786] - Quote
Cidanel Afuran wrote:Aaron wrote:Currency is a commodity and traded world wide. Google "Forex" From an investment standpoint, currency is not considered to trade in commodity markets. The commodity market is simply the trading of products that are not manufactured in any way. Currency can be (and is) manipulated through interest rate adjustments, issuing/buying back securities, and adjusting minimum reserve requirements. Commodities can not be manipulated like that. Could Japan manipulate the price of copper the same as it is currently manipulating the Yen?
You can also add on things like taxes and deficit spending as well.
To have influence over a commodity like oil, diamonds or copper one would need to either have some degree of monopoly power for form a cartel...which is not easy. After all, with a cartel the problem of chiseling is always a problem.
For example, with OPEC each country has a considerable incentive to produce more than what it has been allocated under the cartel agreement. Further monitoring is not very easy, and even if you can monitor oil production since we are talking nation states, enforcing a penalty is rather difficult (is Saudi Arabia going to invade Venezuela, don't make me laugh). So Saudi Arabia acts/acted as an "enforcer" by threatening to over produce substantially and drive the oil price down very low. However, this is costly and it cuts deeply into the supposed profits.
A country doing something dubious with its own currency? Far, far easier thing to accomplish.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Cidanel Afuran
Chickenhawk.
244
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 17:14:30 -
[787] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:You can also add on things like taxes and deficit spending as well.
To have influence over a commodity like oil, diamonds or copper one would need to either have some degree of monopoly power for form a cartel...which is not easy. After all, with a cartel the problem of chiseling is always a problem.
For example, with OPEC each country has a considerable incentive to produce more than what it has been allocated under the cartel agreement. Further monitoring is not very easy, and even if you can monitor oil production since we are talking nation states, enforcing a penalty is rather difficult (is Saudi Arabia going to invade Venezuela, don't make me laugh). So Saudi Arabia acts/acted as an "enforcer" by threatening to over produce substantially and drive the oil price down very low. However, this is costly and it cuts deeply into the supposed profits.
A country doing something dubious with its own currency? Far, far easier thing to accomplish.
Hasikan Miallok wrote:Individual countries probably will struggle.
But try telling De Beers or OPEC you cannot manipulate a commodity price.
Yeah, my entire point (as someone who works in investment management for a living) was if you tell someone you are going to do commodity trading, then turn around and trade currency, people will look at you like you just grew a second head.
And if a client gives approval for commodity trading and you go ahead and do currency trading instead, you have a lawsuit on your hands. |
Salvos Rhoska
1508
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 17:24:55 -
[788] - Quote
Anyone else ever dream of what they could do in/to EVE if they won a large multimillion jackpot in a lottery?
PvE v PvP
|
Tank Murdock Jnr
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
33
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 17:27:37 -
[789] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Anyone else ever dream of what they could do in/to EVE if they won a large multimillion jackpot in a lottery?
lol
"Wait a minute...open buy orders for plex are now 0.01 isk? Somebody dumped 5000 plex on the market?"
Although, in all honesty I could think of better things to spend my money on. Still...
When a person is insane, as you clearly are, do you know that you're insane? Maybe you're just sitting around, reading 'Guns and Ammo', masturbating in your own faeces, do you just stop and go, 'Wow! It is amazing how f*cking crazy I really am!'?
|
Salvos Rhoska
1508
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 17:35:37 -
[790] - Quote
Tank Murdock Jnr wrote:Still...
Indeed...
PvE v PvP
|
|
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
633
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 18:17:56 -
[791] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:
Time is the commodity. I am selling my time for X dollars. A plex is worth 20 dollars which translates into a quantity of my time spent. As my earnings differ from others, that makes its value different. As such, I trade my time for a specific unit of isk. People spend said time for said isk. therefore as a commodity, I trade my time for your time if you are willing to pay.
I would not say that time is a commodity more that is has value. After all you cannot sell me extra hours for a given day, week, or even my life. But an employer who would like me to spend time helping him do something that can make him even more money will be willing to pay me for some of my time/labor.
And yes, you are correct a PLEX is worth $20 (for simplicity's sake lets just round up). If you have to spend 20 hours in game grinding to buy a PLEX then your implicit wage is $1/hour. Now maybe you really, really like grinding and you'd happily pay $2/hour to do it...in which case 20 hours of grinding and buying a PLEX makes sense. If not, then pay $15/month directly and spend far, far less time grinding. [/quote]
It was a pretty loose connection to being a commodity. But it is pretty much like you say. When I put a plex up, I am essentially putting up so much time that I worked. When somebody puts up isk, that isk represents their time worked in game. I have what I think my game time is worth, so that is what I would sell plex for. Others are weighing how much work it would take to get that plex and weighing the same.
At some point, an average will be reached or price will get so high if there is enough people who even are willing the temptation to sell plex. I dunno if there is a single term to define a plex really. It is a commodity with supply and demand, but essentially it is another form of currency? Most assuredly there is some player who is into economics who could do a whole paper on PLEX in eve!
To quote Lfod Shi
The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
|
Salvos Rhoska
1509
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 18:30:10 -
[792] - Quote
Status quo: PLEX and PCU have now stabilised. Regardless of speculations as to who/why/how, this is our current status quo till Spring (particularly as in EVE, unlike many other games, we dont play during summer).
PLEX: If you cant afford the new PLEX rate, adapt and diversify. Accept it as a positive challenge and an incentive to go and do things you have not done before. Either that, or focus on making more RLM or saving on uneccessary expenses.
Market: It is to be expected that commodities prices across a wide spectrum will gradually drop as this settles in, as individual players dump their stockpiles inorder to facilitate PLEX purchase ingame for the foreseeable future. Its a buyers market (even though reduced PCU implies less supply). Up to you how you define your thresholds, but I think even lowish buy orders have a good chance of being filled still, though the optimum for larger profits may have already passed 1-2 months ago.
Emmigration: Funnily enough, I would anticipate more non-HS activity in the next months, and less HS activity, as HS players or HS alts look outwards for the profit potentials (especially inorder to PLEX) that are now more rational, against the sustained level of risk.
I also expect an increase in recruitment candidates, particularly for large NS alliances and their consitutuent corps, as HS entities attempt to to find a "safe" place to continue and grow their isk efforts, to match their increased PLEX costs.
This is a fantastic opportunity for those entities to exploit these HS immigrants, both as to rob them blind cos they are too stupid and coddled to have understood game mechanics and so trusting as to give all their assets away for "gratis transport", but also, more importantly and significantly, to source players who will grind activity levels/indexes nonstop in select systems, that other players find tedious. HS PvE carebears farm HARD. They are ideal for this when provided the defence they require to feel "safe". Sure, they are not much help in a CTA, but they will handle the rest. They probably ***** and whine a lot too, but who cares as long as they bring in the isk/material/index.
PvE v PvP
|
Divine Entervention
Legion's Knights Of The Round Intrepid Crossing
633
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 19:02:36 -
[793] - Quote
Nice, it's good to see plex has finally stabilized after becoming heavily inflated DUE to the alliance tournament winnings flooding the market. |
Syn Shi
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
191
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 19:35:11 -
[794] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Status quo: PLEX and PCU have now stabilised. Regardless of speculations as to who/why/how, this is our current status quo till Spring (particularly as in EVE, unlike many other games, we dont play during summer).
PLEX: If you cant afford the new PLEX rate, adapt and diversify. Accept it as a positive challenge and an incentive to go and do things you have not done before. Either that, or focus on making more RLM or saving on uneccessary expenses.
Market: It is to be expected that commodities prices across a wide spectrum will gradually drop as this settles in, as individual players dump their stockpiles inorder to facilitate PLEX purchase ingame for the foreseeable future. Its a buyers market (even though reduced PCU implies less supply). Up to you how you define your thresholds, but I think even lowish buy orders have a good chance of being filled still, though the optimum for larger profits may have already passed 1-2 months ago.
Emmigration: Rising PLEX costs, means a need for higher profits. HS activity is "safe", yes, but increasingly less sufficient to meet PLEX costs (barring station/system trading, which is "safe" in a different way, but not nearly as easy as many claim it as).
I would anticipate more non-HS activity in the next months, and less HS activity, as HS players or HS alts look outwards for the profit potentials (especially inorder to PLEX) that are now more rational, against the sustained level of risk.
I also expect an increase in recruitment candidates, particularly for large NS alliances and their consitutuent corps, as HS entities attempt to to find a "safe" place to continue and grow their isk efforts, to match their increased PLEX costs. Unfortunately LS and WH space cant provide that, due to many factors which may need heuristic consideration from CCP somewhere down the line. NPC null carries some incentive, but not the "safety" that these HS emmigrants want.
This is a fantastic opportunity for those NS entities to exploit these HS immigrants, both as to rob them blind cos they are too stupid and coddled to have understood game mechanics and so trusting as to give all their assets away for "gratis transport", but also, more importantly and significantly, to source players who will grind activity levels/indexes nonstop in select systems, that other players find tedious. HS PvE carebears farm HARD. They are ideal for this when provided the defence they require to feel "safe". Sure, they are not much help in a CTA, but they will handle the rest. They probably ***** and whine a lot too, but who cares as long as they bring in the isk/material/index.
LS has created its own problems. PvP matters here more than anywhere else. If you want that, go here. But if you want profit, not so much.
WH is insular and basic survival is complicated and involved. Profits work, but this is, quite frankly, the hardest sector of all. Organisational complications in NS may trump this, but really its a very harsh and unforgiving environment, in all ways.
As I have tried to be recently, I focus on the positive. Rising PLEX price increases isk requirements, and makes HS increasingly insufficient for purposes of PLEXing. This is GOOD, because it forces players out of HS, into the rest of what EVE has to offer.
Adapt. Evolve. Go where the isk is
Or find a new game.....much closer to reality.
|
Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
1676
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 19:46:59 -
[795] - Quote
Syn Shi wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote: Adapt. Evolve. Go where the isk is
Or find a new game.....much closer to reality. Is that an offer of your stuff? Please contract it to me at the station of your choice. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3391
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 19:47:37 -
[796] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:Syn Shi wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote: Adapt. Evolve. Go where the isk is
Or find a new game.....much closer to reality. Is that an offer of your stuff? Please contract it to me at the station of your choice.
Dammit! You beat me too it.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
12495
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 19:54:07 -
[797] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:Syn Shi wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote: Adapt. Evolve. Go where the isk is
Or find a new game.....much closer to reality. Is that an offer of your stuff? Please contract it to me at the station of your choice.
Since you're getting his stuff, can I have YOUR stuff? |
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
635
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 19:55:02 -
[798] - Quote
Rising plex increases isk requirements?
Nope, my isk needs are the same as when I started playing. I understand that some people, it is tough to have spare cash, but if isk is tight now, some can afford it. So how do they? Can a person not get a cut of that? It can be harder so put more time to it. Combine eve fun with plex. Fewer shinies, but still enjoying if it isnt a hard farm?
To quote Lfod Shi
The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
|
Zihao
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
155
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 20:40:34 -
[799] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Black Pedro wrote:Syn Shi wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote: Adapt. Evolve. Go where the isk is
Or find a new game.....much closer to reality. Is that an offer of your stuff? Please contract it to me at the station of your choice. Since you're getting his stuff, can I have YOUR stuff? You don't need double stuff, and I have no stuff!
I would like to announce my full support for this product and/or service. Please pay it forward to me and I'll doub.... er, send half to another deserving party. |
Salvos Rhoska
1513
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 21:15:54 -
[800] - Quote
Higher PLEX price prompts players to move out of HS (barring a few specialised activities), as profits are higher elsewhere.
Refusal to adapt, such as by moving out of HS for greater profits against increased PLEX price, has resulted in any number of whine posts veiled as "CCP plz improve PvE", which actually means they just want better HS PvE payout.
I dont doubt many of these players would rather leave EVE, than leave HS. Everyone can conclude for themselves whether that is a rational or conducive choice. Imo, it isnt. Its weak and pathetic.
Yes, many HS activities some people are used to, are now hard pressed to match PLEX. Too bad. Too sad.
If you want greater profits, adapt your activities and/or, move to another sector where profits are greater.
PvE v PvP
|
|
Divine Entervention
Legion's Knights Of The Round Intrepid Crossing
633
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 21:18:44 -
[801] - Quote
I dunno man, player base is jaded and super lazy.
Change doesn't promote adapting, it promotes giving up entirely and moving on to something else.
They see they now have to spend 20% more time to get what they got before, and have to decide to put forth a large initial investment of time in the act of moving their selves and assets to a new area to reestablish their base line time requirement, Or to just say "screw this" and quit playing until things are "fixed". |
Salvos Rhoska
1513
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 21:30:50 -
[802] - Quote
Divine Entervention wrote:I dunno man, player base is jaded and super lazy.
Change doesn't promote adapting, it promotes giving up entirely and moving on to something else.
They see they now have to spend 20% more time to get what they got before, and have to decide to put forth a large initial investment of time in the act of moving their selves and assets to a new area to reestablish their base line time requirement, Or to just say "screw this" and quit playing until things are "fixed".
Yes, you are correct.
However no new content would fix anything in regards to these lazy players expecting spoonfeeding. Yes, dumping more safe HS PvE isk down their throats would make them happy, but then what.
Huge amounts of Isk are possible, if you use your brain, and especially if you get out of HS, where the systemic values/hr of various activities are categorically higher than in HS.
When PLEX was lower, HS seemed a sweet place to be "safe" and farm. That time had now passed.
If they want to survive on PLEX, they are going to have to adapt/diversify/move. If they would rather leave the game than even attempt that, its sad, but there isnt much that can be done about it.
PvE v PvP
|
Nicolai Serkanner
Jebediah Kerman's Junkyard and Spaceship Parts Co. I N F A M O U S
489
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 21:36:12 -
[803] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Anyone else ever dream of what they could do in/to EVE if they won a large multimillion jackpot in a lottery?
Yes ... I would stop playing, buy myself a condo in the Caribbean and have drinks and pretty girls very near me the entire day, |
Salvos Rhoska
1513
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 21:39:06 -
[804] - Quote
Nicolai Serkanner wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:Anyone else ever dream of what they could do in/to EVE if they won a large multimillion jackpot in a lottery? Yes ... I would stop playing, buy myself a condo in the Caribbean and have drinks and pretty girls very near me the entire day,
You misread the question.
Also why the hell would you stop playing EVE just because you are extremely rich?
PvE v PvP
|
Divine Entervention
Legion's Knights Of The Round Intrepid Crossing
633
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 21:42:02 -
[805] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Nicolai Serkanner wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:Anyone else ever dream of what they could do in/to EVE if they won a large multimillion jackpot in a lottery? Yes ... I would stop playing, buy myself a condo in the Caribbean and have drinks and pretty girls very near me the entire day, You misread the question. Also why the hell would you stop playing EVE just because you are extremely rich?
All the cocaine would probably distract me from my computer |
Nicolai Serkanner
Jebediah Kerman's Junkyard and Spaceship Parts Co. I N F A M O U S
490
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 22:05:48 -
[806] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Nicolai Serkanner wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:Anyone else ever dream of what they could do in/to EVE if they won a large multimillion jackpot in a lottery? Yes ... I would stop playing, buy myself a condo in the Caribbean and have drinks and pretty girls very near me the entire day, You misread the question. Also why the hell would you stop playing EVE just because you are extremely rich?
What have I misread? ... is there no Caribbean in EvE universe?
But indeed, if I was extremely rich I would not play EvE ... who can find the time for such frolics when there is a whole world of real danger to adhere to?
|
Salvos Rhoska
1513
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 22:09:55 -
[807] - Quote
Divine Entervention wrote:All the cocaine would probably distract me from my computer Somewhat related, that in the last week alone Ive seen, live: - One particular EVE streamer pass out, twice, from drinking/drugs, while still seated infront of the camera. - Another one puke all over their desk from drinking, while trying to hold the rest in their hand, before running off camera.
Nicolai Serkanner wrote:But indeed, if I was extremely rich I would not play EvE ... who can find the time for such frolics when there is a whole world of real danger to adhere to?
That makes no sense at all.
PvE v PvP
|
Aaron
Eternal Frontier
316
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 22:23:55 -
[808] - Quote
Nicolai Serkanner wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:Anyone else ever dream of what they could do in/to EVE if they won a large multimillion jackpot in a lottery? Yes ... I would stop playing, buy myself a condo in the Caribbean and have drinks and pretty girls very near me the entire day,
That's what I'm talkin about.
Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
|
Aaron
Eternal Frontier
316
|
Posted - 2015.09.25 22:44:23 -
[809] - Quote
Divine Entervention wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:Nicolai Serkanner wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:Anyone else ever dream of what they could do in/to EVE if they won a large multimillion jackpot in a lottery? Yes ... I would stop playing, buy myself a condo in the Caribbean and have drinks and pretty girls very near me the entire day, You misread the question. Also why the hell would you stop playing EVE just because you are extremely rich? All the cocaine would probably distract me from my computer
I think this is what happens to people who come into lots of money and they have a drug habit, They over indulge because they can.
Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
|
Nicolai Serkanner
Jebediah Kerman's Junkyard and Spaceship Parts Co. I N F A M O U S
493
|
Posted - 2015.09.26 12:16:49 -
[810] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Nicolai Serkanner wrote:But indeed, if I was extremely rich I would not play EvE ... who can find the time for such frolics when there is a whole world of real danger to adhere to?
That makes no sense at all.
Probably lost in translation.
|
|
Aoife Fraoch
Rabble Inc.
141
|
Posted - 2015.09.26 12:25:50 -
[811] - Quote
Nicolai Serkanner wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:Nicolai Serkanner wrote:But indeed, if I was extremely rich I would not play EvE ... who can find the time for such frolics when there is a whole world of real danger to adhere to?
That makes no sense at all. Probably lost in translation.
It was probably the use of 'adhere' in that sentence. |
k Rose
Perkone Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2015.09.26 17:01:25 -
[812] - Quote
Finally mother-ships have fell in price |
Ms GoodyMaker
Delainen Technologies
0
|
Posted - 2015.09.26 20:57:42 -
[813] - Quote
Yossarian Toralen wrote:It is a strange product in that it costs more real money to use a PLEX to pay for game time than it costs to sub it, so people are going to sub their accounts more and more as the price rises and lower the profit for CCP in the long run, I'm sure they got a nice cash injection in the short term.
Short term thinking for a game that has been running this long is a bit odd.
It would be good for CCP to gain in the short term, if their long term prospects were looking dim with people unsubbing accounts due to killing Multiboxing.
Death shall come to us all...meet you back in WoW.
|
Fourteen Maken
Omega Industry Inc. The Ditanian Alliance
199
|
Posted - 2015.09.26 22:58:41 -
[814] - Quote
I think ccp have been artificially suppressing plex prices and just now took their hands off the wheel to let the market sort itself out.
Plex price will rise until: price = the maximum most multiboxer/botters are willing to tolerate to keep their accounts subbed.
I don't think we're there yet.
Support a fairer loyalty point market for faction war:
The sinews of war; infinite money.
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3405
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 00:38:36 -
[815] - Quote
Ms GoodyMaker wrote:Yossarian Toralen wrote:It is a strange product in that it costs more real money to use a PLEX to pay for game time than it costs to sub it, so people are going to sub their accounts more and more as the price rises and lower the profit for CCP in the long run, I'm sure they got a nice cash injection in the short term.
Short term thinking for a game that has been running this long is a bit odd. It would be good for CCP to gain in the short term, if their long term prospects were looking dim with people unsubbing accounts due to killing Multiboxing. Death shall come to us all...meet you back in WoW.
That is just it, by increasing demand in game and having the in-game price rise people will eventually switch back to the RL market. This could be a good move for CCP. At least I hope so anyways.
As for multiboxing they did nothing to multiboxing, that is a flat out misleading comment. I can multibox 3 accounts and CCP has said this is just fine.
What they did was put a serious dent in the use of things like ISBoxer, which in my view was always in violation of the EULA. Using an outside program that allows you to acquire more in game resources faster than "normal play" is not allowed. Assuming CCP survives the drop in subs, this is a good long term policy, IMO. To be quite honest, I'd like it if they just outright banned things like ISBoxer.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
k Rose
Perkone Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 11:26:28 -
[816] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Ms GoodyMaker wrote:Yossarian Toralen wrote:It is a strange product in that it costs more real money to use a PLEX to pay for game time than it costs to sub it, so people are going to sub their accounts more and more as the price rises and lower the profit for CCP in the long run, I'm sure they got a nice cash injection in the short term.
Short term thinking for a game that has been running this long is a bit odd. It would be good for CCP to gain in the short term, if their long term prospects were looking dim with people unsubbing accounts due to killing Multiboxing. Death shall come to us all...meet you back in WoW. That is just it, by increasing demand in game and having the in-game price rise people will eventually switch back to the RL market. This could be a good move for CCP. At least I hope so anyways. As for multiboxing they did nothing to multiboxing, that is a flat out misleading comment. I can multibox 3 accounts and CCP has said this is just fine. What they did was put a serious dent in the use of things like ISBoxer, which in my view was always in violation of the EULA. Using an outside program that allows you to acquire more in game resources faster than "normal play" is not allowed. Assuming CCP survives the drop in subs, this is a good long term policy, IMO. To be quite honest, I'd like it if they just outright banned things like ISBoxer.
So what are you saying? CCP no longer stand by the "power of two" or "wait a minute you put your hands in the cookie jar !"
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3410
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 17:52:57 -
[817] - Quote
k Rose wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Ms GoodyMaker wrote:Yossarian Toralen wrote:It is a strange product in that it costs more real money to use a PLEX to pay for game time than it costs to sub it, so people are going to sub their accounts more and more as the price rises and lower the profit for CCP in the long run, I'm sure they got a nice cash injection in the short term.
Short term thinking for a game that has been running this long is a bit odd. It would be good for CCP to gain in the short term, if their long term prospects were looking dim with people unsubbing accounts due to killing Multiboxing. Death shall come to us all...meet you back in WoW. That is just it, by increasing demand in game and having the in-game price rise people will eventually switch back to the RL market. This could be a good move for CCP. At least I hope so anyways. As for multiboxing they did nothing to multiboxing, that is a flat out misleading comment. I can multibox 3 accounts and CCP has said this is just fine. What they did was put a serious dent in the use of things like ISBoxer, which in my view was always in violation of the EULA. Using an outside program that allows you to acquire more in game resources faster than "normal play" is not allowed. Assuming CCP survives the drop in subs, this is a good long term policy, IMO. To be quite honest, I'd like it if they just outright banned things like ISBoxer. So what are you saying? CCP no longer stand by the "power of two" or "wait a minute you put your hands in the cookie jar !"
What I'm saying is, if subs are down but there is more demand in game for PLEX then this is a possible good thing for CCP. I said nothing about the power of two...if you want to attempt to draw an inference from what I've posted that is your problem.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
BearThatCares
Schneckt
0
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 17:55:41 -
[818] - Quote
Yossarian Toralen wrote:It is a strange product in that it costs more real money to use a PLEX to pay for game time than it costs to sub it, so people are going to sub their accounts more and more as the price rises and lower the profit for CCP in the long run, I'm sure they got a nice cash injection in the short term.
Short term thinking for a game that has been running this long is a bit odd.
The point of it is to not pay at all. If you paid for 30 days game time with 1 billion virtual currency, you paid no REAL currency. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3411
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 18:08:28 -
[819] - Quote
BearThatCares wrote:Yossarian Toralen wrote:It is a strange product in that it costs more real money to use a PLEX to pay for game time than it costs to sub it, so people are going to sub their accounts more and more as the price rises and lower the profit for CCP in the long run, I'm sure they got a nice cash injection in the short term.
Short term thinking for a game that has been running this long is a bit odd. The point of it is to not pay at all. If you paid for 30 days game time with 1 billion virtual currency, you paid no REAL currency. PLEX, CREDD, Bonds, etc are all methods used by small community games to increase cash flow. It's not a short term strategy.
There is no free lunch, ever. Just as there are no perpetual motion machines.
If you used ISK then you paid via your leisure time. Maybe grinding for the 1.225 billion or whatever the cost of a PLEX is is something you love to do. But unless that is the case you are saying you put a very, very low value on your leisure time.
You know...that opportunity cost thing.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Aaron
Eternal Frontier
316
|
Posted - 2015.09.29 11:59:00 -
[820] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:BearThatCares wrote:Yossarian Toralen wrote:It is a strange product in that it costs more real money to use a PLEX to pay for game time than it costs to sub it, so people are going to sub their accounts more and more as the price rises and lower the profit for CCP in the long run, I'm sure they got a nice cash injection in the short term.
Short term thinking for a game that has been running this long is a bit odd. The point of it is to not pay at all. If you paid for 30 days game time with 1 billion virtual currency, you paid no REAL currency. PLEX, CREDD, Bonds, etc are all methods used by small community games to increase cash flow. It's not a short term strategy. There is no free lunch, ever. Just as there are no perpetual motion machines. If you used ISK then you paid via your leisure time. Maybe grinding for the 1.225 billion or whatever the cost of a PLEX is is something you love to do. But unless that is the case you are saying you put a very, very low value on your leisure time. You know...that opportunity cost thing.
I'm in full agreement with Yossarian, In business it s always a good idea to consider the long term, if this is done then success and customer satisfaction is easier to achieve.
Bearthatcares, if one buys a PLEX for game time purposes then all you've really done is employ someone to pay a higher sub fee using their debit/credit card on your behalf for an isk reward. Effectively you have become the grinder for the person you're buying the PLEX from, so you have the PLEX seller and the PLEX user where both parties have a need to fulfill. It is a good partnership the PLEX seller can't be bothered to grind and the PLEX user is bothered to grind.
Teckos, time is the biggest commodity in the history mankind and I am very sure most people try to put the most optimal value on their time in any scenario. We all know that time is limited so therefore it is valuable.
Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
|
|
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1540
|
Posted - 2015.09.29 14:42:15 -
[821] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:
There is no free lunch, ever. Just as there are no perpetual motion machines.
If you used ISK then you paid via your leisure time. Maybe grinding for the 1.225 billion or whatever the cost of a PLEX is is something you love to do. But unless that is the case you are saying you put a very, very low value on your leisure time.
You know...that opportunity cost thing.
Then there are people with excess ISK with nothing useful to spend it on. The sort of people who would throw billions on Somer Blink cos why not.
|
Zihao
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
175
|
Posted - 2015.09.29 16:25:04 -
[822] - Quote
Grr gambling. |
Buzz Orti
State War Academy Caldari State
59
|
Posted - 2015.11.28 20:35:29 -
[823] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:In economic theory there is something called Giffen good (good, as in "goods and services"). These are goods which have a reversed supply-demand curve. That is, an increase in price results in a decrease in supply. It is possible that the PLEX is a Giffen good. To see how this could be, first let me recast what I mean by "the price of the PLEX". Certain items increase the price in value when the supply decreases since it makes it harder to acquire certain percentage of that supply. So, the lower the supply, or the more "sold out" it becomes, the more the increase in price value is justified.
Certain other items, or even more so, at certain other times, the same items will increase in price even as the supply increases. This may also be caused due to the demand for those same items increasing and therefore the same percentage of supply scheme occurs, even though the finite supply had increased. The fact remains that , since the demand increased, perhaps still more than the increased supply offered, the price was driven to be increased. (Or, so justified to be.)
There are many other cases and examples and some are not related to supply increases and decreases.
Some other items or conditions are related to seasons, which affects the way the supply can be offered, due to a transport need or other requirements.
Other cause can be the way that items become obsolete, especially for those who do not understand how the item would be valuable otherwise.
Certain items value are based on how much everyone else is using it or participating in it. Others are based on their organization rather than being based on the numbers of buyers.
Many asset based system base their evaluation on sales since it is related to traded money which in turn can be demanded from them to "invest" or manage or expand or other , into a scheme, service, or products. This in turn can be for or including distribution, production, storage, logistic or other service related to products. Financial services relate to those items or services even though they may be based on more analysis than the practical part of the transacting or other activity which is related to be valued, depending on who values what and how, and so on.
Edit: At other times, the market affects the item value. Less sales may mean that the item value will decrease and therefore the price will lower. That is not always the case as other factors can cause the value in price to go up at the same time.
For example, again, less sales in one item may cause the price to increase since it will take more cost to cover for storage. At other times, the lesser sale will increase supply and if even one large buyer manages to transact enough, it may allow the sellers to keep their prices low, or to even decrease it.
One factors to take into account is, the need for the seller (who offer) to make a profit. If the costs of the seller to expand his business services are over 400% profit of the cost of his items, than, to increase the value will allow the business to expand. |
Buzz Orti
State War Academy Caldari State
59
|
Posted - 2015.11.28 20:52:01 -
[824] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Anyone else ever dream of what they could do in/to EVE if they won a large multimillion jackpot in a lottery? I would buy more shares in EVE Online, through the CCP company.
Also, I prefer to put my practice into business than developing business on dreaming.
It may be something more practical than only a dream, but I run many of my goals from ideals which are not necessarily dreams only.
Also, I never multiboxed yet, although I was offered to try it from one place with 2 computers at the same time. I would probably not be testing it on 3 computers at the same time.
I also don't think that "The Power of 2" allows for multiboxing.
I however do multi-client, and , if you want to fly in more dangerous places than high-sec (high-sec included) you may very well use at least one scout, which may be on a second client if you can't find a friend with the time to do the scouting. I offered my services as scout a few times, but for the same reasons, I have never gotten any practical demand for it yet.
There are less active suscribers who multi-client or multi-box than before. I presume that multi-client may be worst to the EVE Online response since it affects one computer and one internet connection at the same time. The more accounts are ran simultaneously , the more constraint is applied to the system (hardware and network).
Multi-box may lower the demand for power, but I presume that it is about 50%.
Nonetheless, EVE Online requires more power to run than before, and so , the same systems that ran multiple accounts are more affected unless upgraded , to do the same tasks with the same results (without decreased results). |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3838
|
Posted - 2015.11.28 20:54:00 -
[825] - Quote
PLEX is absolutely not a Giffen good. For a good to be a Giffen good, the good has to have the following:
- It is an inferior good (whoops, off to a bad start).
- There are no real close substitute goods (paying for your sub with RL money is a very good substitute).
- The good in question is a substantial portion of the buyers income, but not so large it prohibits the purchase of normal goods.
So at best you have one condition that holds.
A necessary and sufficient condition for a Giffen good is that the good in question is so inferior that the income effect dominates the substitution effect.
In short, all Giffen goods are inferior goods (but not all inferior goods are Giffen goods). An inferior good is one where as one's income goes up they consume less of it. For example, top ramen could be considered an inferior good if as your income rises you eat less of it and eat more palatable foods.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat FETID
1948
|
Posted - 2015.11.30 09:57:28 -
[826] - Quote
nerf highsec incursions and watch the price drop like brick
Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic | Angel Cartel | Serpentis |
|
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
3702
|
Posted - 2015.11.30 14:01:31 -
[827] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:PLEX is absolutely not a Giffen good. For a good to be a Giffen good, the good has to have the following:
- It is an inferior good (whoops, off to a bad start).
- There are no real close substitute goods (paying for your sub with RL money is a very good substitute).
- The good in question is a substantial portion of the buyers income, but not so large it prohibits the purchase of normal goods.
So at best you have one condition that holds. A necessary and sufficient condition for a Giffen good is that the good in question is so inferior that the income effect dominates the substitution effect. In short, all Giffen goods are inferior goods (but not all inferior goods are Giffen goods). An inferior good is one where as one's income goes up they consume less of it. For example, top ramen could be considered an inferior good if as your income rises you eat less of it and eat more palatable foods. Edit: In fact, I think there is a much, much stronger case that PLEX are superior goods, where as one's income rises past a certain level one can start to consume them. As such there is literally no way for PLEX to be a Giffen good.
Its not so clear. First, let me make sure we are talking about the same thing, I'm taking about buying PLEX with real money for the purpose of selling it in-game to get ISK from another player. That is the PLEX as a good in the real world, not how it is viewed in the game itself. Now consider:
Don't place PLEX against total income, but against that part of my income I can allocate to entertainment. Now buying a PLEX can be a substantial part of my budget. We have your last point.
Substitutes: The only (legal) way for me to spend real money and get ISK is to buy a PLEX. There is no substitute. So we have your second point.
inferior good: There are other ways for me to spend my entertainment dollar: Movies, going out to dinner, and other games. Which is the superior good: Dinner and movie with my girlfriend, or a Nyx? Well, here its not so clear. Many gamers pick the Nyx.
But even if PLEX is not a true Giffen good, there is still a point: The PLEX has an optimum ISK value that makes the most money for CCP.
Consider a graph where the vertical axis is profit, and the horizontal is price, say dollars per billion ISK. Usually, such a graph starts low, rises to a maximum, and trains off with increasing price. There is a maximum. Where its it? What conversion rate for dollars to ISK results in CCP making the most money? Well, the peak trading at Jita for the PLEX occurred when it was at 500 million, or $40/billion ISK. Now, we are down to $17/billion ISK. Have we passed the peak profit point? Are players spending less to get ISK, because they really don't need that much, and would rather spend their money on other forms of entertainment?
Know a Frozen fan? Check this out
Frozen fanfiction
|
La Rynx
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
453
|
Posted - 2015.11.30 16:02:56 -
[828] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote: inferior good: There are other ways for me to spend my entertainment dollar:
To bad, the price in ISK is the key, not in US Dollar.
I already said, that PLEX are NO giffen good. (its a giffen-paradox not a giffen-good anyway) However, PLEX are the best way to invest ISK into instead heaving them lying around. If i have surplus isk, i immediatly buy PLEX, since plex prices still rise. Invest in PLEX and you win. You *do* know, that there are already banks in EvE. What do you think, they invest in?
Atomic Virulent : "You can't spell DOUCHE. without CODE."
|
Ginnie
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2015.11.30 16:06:36 -
[829] - Quote
I so do not play this game enough to make anywhere near 1B per month to pay for PLEX! I play at most two hours per day and when I'm online, I play very casually. Run a few missions, mine some ore, make a few standard items, take the scenic route back to Jita, a little site seeing, etc. |
La Rynx
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
453
|
Posted - 2015.11.30 16:54:29 -
[830] - Quote
Ginnie wrote:I so do not play this game enough to make anywhere near 1B per month to pay for PLEX! I play at most two hours per day and when I'm online, I play very casually. Run a few missions, mine some ore, make a few standard items, take the scenic route back to Jita, a little site seeing, etc.
You are a perfect example for my arguments. Letz say you want some new ship you trained for, but you just do not have enough isk to buy all the stuff. You might buy a plex to sell it and shorten your wait.
I manage from time to time to earn a plex, but i always loose some expensive **** when i play EvE careless. Ratting in nullsec while watching movies can not be recommended.
My Starwars-Battlefront-Preorder and 12 Bucks for Elite Dangerous are not helping either to have more gametime. (On the other hand, i still started EvE AND i had the feeling of coming home ! )
Atomic Virulent : "You can't spell DOUCHE. without CODE."
|
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3848
|
Posted - 2015.11.30 17:11:08 -
[831] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:PLEX is absolutely not a Giffen good. For a good to be a Giffen good, the good has to have the following:
- It is an inferior good (whoops, off to a bad start).
- There are no real close substitute goods (paying for your sub with RL money is a very good substitute).
- The good in question is a substantial portion of the buyers income, but not so large it prohibits the purchase of normal goods.
So at best you have one condition that holds. A necessary and sufficient condition for a Giffen good is that the good in question is so inferior that the income effect dominates the substitution effect. In short, all Giffen goods are inferior goods (but not all inferior goods are Giffen goods). An inferior good is one where as one's income goes up they consume less of it. For example, top ramen could be considered an inferior good if as your income rises you eat less of it and eat more palatable foods. Edit: In fact, I think there is a much, much stronger case that PLEX are superior goods, where as one's income rises past a certain level one can start to consume them. As such there is literally no way for PLEX to be a Giffen good. Its not so clear. First, let me make sure we are talking about the same thing, I'm taking about buying PLEX with real money for the purpose of selling it in-game to get ISK from another player. That is the PLEX as a good in the real world, not how it is viewed in the game itself. Now consider: Don't place PLEX against total income, but against that part of my income I can allocate to entertainment. Now buying a PLEX can be a substantial part of my budget. We have your last point. Substitutes: The only (legal) way for me to spend real money and get ISK is to buy a PLEX. There is no substitute. So we have your second point. inferior good: There are other ways for me to spend my entertainment dollar: Movies, going out to dinner, and other games. Which is the superior good: Dinner and movie with my girlfriend, or a Nyx? Well, here its not so clear. Many gamers pick the Nyx. But even if PLEX is not a true Giffen good, there is still a point: The PLEX has an optimum ISK value that makes the most money for CCP. Consider a graph where the vertical axis is profit, and the horizontal is price, say dollars per billion ISK. Usually, such a graph starts low, rises to a maximum, and trains off with increasing price. There is a maximum. Where its it? What conversion rate for dollars to ISK results in CCP making the most money? Well, the peak trading at Jita for the PLEX occurred when it was at 500 million, or $40/billion ISK. Now, we are down to $17/billion ISK. Have we passed the peak profit point? Are players spending less to get ISK, because they really don't need that much, and would rather spend their money on other forms of entertainment?
To determine if something is an inferior good you have to compare it to changes in your income. That is the definition.
Quote:In economics, an inferior good is a good that decreases in demand when consumer income rises (or rises in demand when consumer income decreases),[1] unlike normal goods, for which the opposite is observed.[2] Normal goods are those for which consumers' demand increases when their income increases. [3] This would be the opposite of a superior good, one that is often associated with wealth and the wealthy, whereas an inferior good is often associated with lower socio-economic groups.-- wikipediaA type of good for which demand declines as the level of income or real GDP in the economy increases. This occurs when a good has more costly substitutes that see an increase in demand as the society's economy improves. An inferior good is the opposite of a normal good, which experiences an increase in demand along with increases in the income level.-- investopediaFor some goods, however, the quantity chosen may decrease as income increases in some ranges. Such goods are rotgutt whiskey, potatoes, and second hand clothes.--Walter Nicholson & Christopher Snyder, Microeconomics Theory, Basic Principles and Extensions, p. 148.
So the idea of using part of your income means you are not talking about the same thing.
Further, the notion that as your income rises (and your implicit hourly wage is also rising) that you'd be less inclined to use PLEX to get ISK is dubious. It means you are place an increasing value on grinding for ISK. Granted some people may really love it, but I think the vast majority of players look at grinding for ISK to be a tedious chore done out of necessity.
So the question is, if you suddenly hit it and landed a job where your salary/income doubled would you more or less PLEX?
Second, Giffen made a classic error in his analysis that any student studying econometrics is soon made aware of. Market outcomes are the result of demand and supply. That is, noting actual price quantity pairs is insufficient to identify either the demand function or the supply function. You'd need a third variable, for example a variable that will effect supply, so you can empirically estimate the demand function.
And lastly, most of the time a Giffen good is described as where the more is demanded as the price increases. However, it can also be stated as, less is demanded as the price decreases. Do you really expect us to believe that as the price of PLEX goes down, both in and out of game, that less will be bought?
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3848
|
Posted - 2015.11.30 17:16:28 -
[832] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:
inferior good: There are other ways for me to spend my entertainment dollar: Movies, going out to dinner, and other games. Which is the superior good: Dinner and movie with my girlfriend, or a Nyx? Well, here its not so clear. Many gamers pick the Nyx
The fact that you have other ways to spend your "entertainment dollars" strongly indicates that we are not talking about a Giffen good. Note the condition, "no real close substitutes...."
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Daerrol
Death By Design Did he say Jump
270
|
Posted - 2015.11.30 17:36:38 -
[833] - Quote
I R LIKING HIGH PLEX PRICE.
* DREADKNOTS - 40$ - GUARANTEED TO NEVER COME UNDONE * LEGIONS - 20$ * BHAALGORNS 2 FOR 20 *i CRUISERS - 15 FOR 10 HELL I PLEXED MY FIRST BLOOPS LAST MONTH THAT'S HOW GOOD THIS IS. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3848
|
Posted - 2015.11.30 17:53:50 -
[834] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:
Consider a graph where the vertical axis is profit, and the horizontal is price, say dollars per billion ISK. Usually, such a graph starts low, rises to a maximum, and trains off with increasing price. There is a maximum. Where its it? What conversion rate for dollars to ISK results in CCP making the most money? Well, the peak trading at Jita for the PLEX occurred when it was at 500 million, or $40/billion ISK. Now, we are down to $17/billion ISK. Have we passed the peak profit point? Are players spending less to get ISK, because they really don't need that much, and would rather spend their money on other forms of entertainment?
I'm going to disagree with this also. It is no longer just about the PLEX-4-ISK market in Jita. PLEX can be used for much more than just to sell for ISK in game. This is one of the reasons it has seen a price increase in game.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
3702
|
Posted - 2015.11.30 22:44:54 -
[835] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Vincent Athena wrote:
Consider a graph where the vertical axis is profit, and the horizontal is price, say dollars per billion ISK. Usually, such a graph starts low, rises to a maximum, and trains off with increasing price. There is a maximum. Where its it? What conversion rate for dollars to ISK results in CCP making the most money? Well, the peak trading at Jita for the PLEX occurred when it was at 500 million, or $40/billion ISK. Now, we are down to $17/billion ISK. Have we passed the peak profit point? Are players spending less to get ISK, because they really don't need that much, and would rather spend their money on other forms of entertainment?
I'm going to disagree with this also. It is no longer just about the PLEX-4-ISK market in Jita. PLEX can be used for much more than just to sell for ISK in game. This is one of the reasons it has seen a price increase in game. Although PLEX can be used for much more than ISK, how many PLEX are purchased with real money and NOT sold for ISK? My guess is very few. Now, after that first sale, all sorts of things happen to PLEX. But for someone thinking of spending real money for a PLEX, my guess is the vast majority of time its to get ISK.
PLEX to get Aurum? Its cheaper to just buy the Aurum. Purchase a PLEX for a month of game time? It's cheaper to do a one month subscription. (Although I have seen someone purchase a PLEX and immediately use it for time.) PLEX for good? Its a push here, the same cost as just donating the money. I can see some people doing it just so the donation is associated with Eve Online.
For the players purchasing PLEX with RM, what they are thinking is "Money to get PLEX to get ISK to get fun". If they can get their Eve fun for less money, and hence have money left over for some other form of fun, they will. As the ISK value of the PLEX increases, the amount of money you need to spend to get your fun is reduced.
Know a Frozen fan? Check this out
Frozen fanfiction
|
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1692
|
Posted - 2015.11.30 22:53:02 -
[836] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:nerf highsec incursions and watch the price drop like brick
There must be an awful lot more people running incursions 24/7 than I previously realized :D
|
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6521
|
Posted - 2015.11.30 23:03:37 -
[837] - Quote
Ginnie wrote:I so do not play this game enough to make anywhere near 1B per month to pay for PLEX! I play at most two hours per day and when I'm online, I play very casually. Run a few missions, mine some ore, make a few standard items, take the scenic route back to Jita, a little site seeing, etc.
I have a T1 PI farm on a single account that PLEX's 2 accounts for a total of 2 hours login time per month. It really isn't that hard.
This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
|
Harrison Tato
Yamato Holdings
489
|
Posted - 2015.11.30 23:22:26 -
[838] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Ginnie wrote:I so do not play this game enough to make anywhere near 1B per month to pay for PLEX! I play at most two hours per day and when I'm online, I play very casually. Run a few missions, mine some ore, make a few standard items, take the scenic route back to Jita, a little site seeing, etc. I have a T1 PI farm on a single account that PLEX's 2 accounts for a total of 2 hours login time per month. It really isn't that hard.
Nice, where is it?
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3850
|
Posted - 2015.12.01 00:07:09 -
[839] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Vincent Athena wrote:
Consider a graph where the vertical axis is profit, and the horizontal is price, say dollars per billion ISK. Usually, such a graph starts low, rises to a maximum, and trains off with increasing price. There is a maximum. Where its it? What conversion rate for dollars to ISK results in CCP making the most money? Well, the peak trading at Jita for the PLEX occurred when it was at 500 million, or $40/billion ISK. Now, we are down to $17/billion ISK. Have we passed the peak profit point? Are players spending less to get ISK, because they really don't need that much, and would rather spend their money on other forms of entertainment?
I'm going to disagree with this also. It is no longer just about the PLEX-4-ISK market in Jita. PLEX can be used for much more than just to sell for ISK in game. This is one of the reasons it has seen a price increase in game. Although PLEX can be used for much more than ISK, how many PLEX are purchased with real money and NOT sold for ISK? My guess is very few. Now, after that first sale, all sorts of things happen to PLEX. But for someone thinking of spending real money for a PLEX, my guess is the vast majority of time its to get ISK. PLEX to get Aurum? Its cheaper to just buy the Aurum. Purchase a PLEX for a month of game time? It's cheaper to do a one month subscription. (Although I have seen someone purchase a PLEX and immediately use it for time.) PLEX for good? Its a push here, the same cost as just donating the money. I can see some people doing it just so the donation is associated with Eve Online. For the players purchasing PLEX with RM, what they are thinking is "Money to get PLEX to get ISK to get fun". If they can get their Eve fun for less money, and hence have money left over for some other form of fun, they will. As the ISK value of the PLEX increases, the amount of money you need to spend to get your fun is reduced.
There is character transfers, multiple account training, character resculpting, and live event purchases.
As for the PLEX market even the PLEX-to-ISK market is a bit more complicated than you make it out to be. There are people who are likely ISK rich, and they may or may not be RL cash poor, so the PLEX market for them works well to let them play without a real life expense. Also, there are people who are RL cash "rich" but are ISK poor (and/or time constrained) for whom the PLEX is a nice alternative to let them get the most out of the game. These two groups will have opposing views on the price of PLEX, the first group prefers it lower, the second higher. In the market trades take place where the buyer and the seller are each "happy/satisfied" with their purchase.
Behind all this are other factors as well. How quickly can players acquire ISK is probably the biggest. And that is also going to be governed by how much ISK is flowing into the economy as well...and there is alot of ISK flowing into the game economy. Further, many players see ISK as a good hedge against inflation/place to invest their ISK while taking a break or looking for other ventures in which to invest their ISK.
All of these things would lead to upwards pressure on the price of PLEX.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6521
|
Posted - 2015.12.01 00:07:34 -
[840] - Quote
Harrison Tato wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Ginnie wrote:I so do not play this game enough to make anywhere near 1B per month to pay for PLEX! I play at most two hours per day and when I'm online, I play very casually. Run a few missions, mine some ore, make a few standard items, take the scenic route back to Jita, a little site seeing, etc. I have a T1 PI farm on a single account that PLEX's 2 accounts for a total of 2 hours login time per month. It really isn't that hard. Nice, where is it?
A better question would be "How did you manage that?"
This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
|
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3850
|
Posted - 2015.12.01 00:08:16 -
[841] - Quote
Hasikan Miallok wrote:Lan Wang wrote:nerf highsec incursions and watch the price drop like brick There must be an awful lot more people running incursions 24/7 than I previously realized :D
Personally, I doubt this. There might be some effect, but dropping like a brick...no.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6521
|
Posted - 2015.12.01 00:12:06 -
[842] - Quote
Pretty sure incursions only play an extremely minor part in PLEX prices.
This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
|
Kira Kaliandra
Prosperitas INC
11
|
Posted - 2015.12.01 04:59:17 -
[843] - Quote
Disregarding all the serious economy talks here ....
I actually dont have a problem with plexes being so high, I have a monthly sub and Im not going to switch to plex anytime soon. Meanwhile, plexes offer a nice injection of ISK, more so now that they are quite expensive.
I wonder how this affects (if at all) people who have many alts which they plex instead of monthly sub... |
Emperor Furiosa
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
25
|
Posted - 2015.12.01 07:17:09 -
[844] - Quote
Kira Kaliandra wrote:Disregarding all the serious economy talks here ....
I actually dont have a problem with plexes being so high, I have a monthly sub and Im not going to switch to plex anytime soon. Meanwhile, plexes offer a nice injection of ISK, more so now that they are quite expensive.
I wonder how this affects (if at all) people who have many alts which they plex instead of monthly sub...
This thread for those who don't pay monthly sub via credit card. |
Kira Kaliandra
Prosperitas INC
11
|
Posted - 2015.12.01 08:57:52 -
[845] - Quote
Emperor Furiosa wrote:Kira Kaliandra wrote:Disregarding all the serious economy talks here ....
I actually dont have a problem with plexes being so high, I have a monthly sub and Im not going to switch to plex anytime soon. Meanwhile, plexes offer a nice injection of ISK, more so now that they are quite expensive.
I wonder how this affects (if at all) people who have many alts which they plex instead of monthly sub... This thread for those who don't pay monthly sub via credit card.
Huh? Where does it say that?
OP is pretty vague |
Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat FETID
1954
|
Posted - 2015.12.01 09:30:18 -
[846] - Quote
Emperor Furiosa wrote:Kira Kaliandra wrote:Disregarding all the serious economy talks here ....
I actually dont have a problem with plexes being so high, I have a monthly sub and Im not going to switch to plex anytime soon. Meanwhile, plexes offer a nice injection of ISK, more so now that they are quite expensive.
I wonder how this affects (if at all) people who have many alts which they plex instead of monthly sub... This thread for those who don't pay monthly sub via credit card.
Why? is this some sort of freeloader circlejerk?
Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic | Angel Cartel | Serpentis |
|
Merovee
Gorthaur Legion Imperium Mordor
167
|
Posted - 2015.12.01 21:40:15 -
[847] - Quote
"Why? is this some sort of freeloader circlejerk?"
Someone just discovered socialism.
Empire, the next new world order.
|
Otso Bakarti
Filial Pariahs
496
|
Posted - 2015.12.02 05:40:50 -
[848] - Quote
Perhaps the server should have imploded.
Paranoia strikes deep....
|
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1702
|
Posted - 2015.12.03 00:30:42 -
[849] - Quote
Kira Kaliandra wrote:
I wonder how this affects (if at all) people who have many alts which they plex instead of monthly sub...
Large numbers of alts (as opposed to essential alts like scouts/cynos/etc ) are generally ISK makers and logically will get unsubbed if they make less than they cost in PLEX. It will be interesting to see what effect PLEX cost has on the prices for ready made characters on the bazaar.
That said, ISK generally is not hard to make and many people PLEX or MCT simply because they may as well and have nothing better to do with the ISK . |
Moneta Curran
Lunar Industries Ltd
312
|
Posted - 2015.12.03 12:22:32 -
[850] - Quote
Seriously, who cares? All this entitled whining just serves to amuse me. I find it ridiculous how people whine about the amount of effort they have to put in to effectively play the game for free.
|
|
Celthric Kanerian
Ascendance Of New Eden Workers Trade Federation
538
|
Posted - 2015.12.04 13:57:45 -
[851] - Quote
*phew* I was expecting another Y2K to happen... |
Mr Mieyli
Hedion University Amarr Empire
117
|
Posted - 2015.12.05 11:32:50 -
[852] - Quote
Plexes are like the ingame equivalent of houses in my opinion but at an even more basic level. Demand for Plexes will never run out as long as eve lives which means prices can continue to rise indefinitely. Not only that but plex supply is inherently limited by people trying to make the most isk from their purchased plex, supply will never be high enough to push prices down long term.
A case for more AoE in EvE
|
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
1125
|
Posted - 2015.12.05 20:24:49 -
[853] - Quote
Personally I have an OCD problem with plex.
I just started my account again.
Before it was reasonable to plex at 600 M. If I play weekends two night a week I can make 100 M + per night so I could pay for plex in 6 days of game play and still have time to make isk.
Now, it isn't really much of a point to grind for it since that is all you would be doing. I do not think I could make that much with only playing weekends anyways.
Which leads to an existential problem for me...
If I am not grinding for plex. What am I earning isk for?
I have all the ships I have ever wanted and could self destruct for fun.
I guess I could just keep doing it for billions and billions of isk.
But there is another problem. If I play to grind isk and pay to actually play anyways... I need to make at least 46 million a day every day for 30 days or the economist in me believes I should just buy plex and sell it or I am wasting my time.
Which bothers me for some reason.
But I doubt that bothers most people.
I suppose the side affect is that there are less alts now.
The belts are empty and ice fields last for hours now, not minutes. When I went to bed last night I couldn't mine all the ice before the server downtime.
So maybe the higher plex prices are good anyways regardless of my OCD about it.
"Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby".
If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down.
Captain Tardbar: The official grumpy cat of General Discussion.
|
LuisWu
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
66
|
Posted - 2015.12.06 10:12:30 -
[854] - Quote
Captain Tardbar wrote: ...
Or maybe... you know... you could forget about the plex and do what you enjoy without caring about the subscription. All activities except pvp will give you money, in fact even fw pvp will give you ridiculous amounts of money.
F*** This Game
|
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1713
|
Posted - 2015.12.07 01:21:27 -
[855] - Quote
Captain Tardbar wrote:Personally I have an OCD problem with plex.
I just started my account again.
Before it was reasonable to plex at 600 M. If I play weekends two night a week I can make 100 M + per night so I could pay for plex in 6 days of game play and still have time to make isk.
Many people sub and THEN if they happen to build up excess ISK will get a Plex to either MCT train an alt on their account to a higher level or simply use the ISK to save themselves cash for a few months before subbing again. |
|
|
|
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 .. 29 :: [one page] |