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Are Tacyons Overpowered?

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piggy	Posted - 2003.11.19 16:37:00 - [1] Serious Question are they overpowered?, all I've heard lately are that they are. But... I've been using them for awhile and the best shot I've had is about 890ish, whereas I've heard other people saying that they get 1100ish with projectiles? and the tacy is still in a higher class of its own. So are they overpowered? if so why? to me they look underpowered. I'm after a huge threeded argument between laser and proj users just a simple reasoned answer.
Alan Bell	Posted - 2003.11.19 16:40:00 - [2] i beleive, the tachs hit more, but the 1100 proj has a larger damage possible, adn perhaps the variety of ammo damage helps a bit also, lasers only do em and thermal, whihc to the hull si 70% tehn 35%, reducing a lot of the damage. http://coldfusion.online-guild.com
Alan Bell	Posted - 2003.11.19 16:40:00 - [3] i mean armor....... http://coldfusion.online-guild.com
Babar	Posted - 2003.11.19 17:06:00 - [4] tachyon: 4.25 / 12.5 / 4250 = 0.00008 dmg/sec/MW mega beam: 2.75 / 9 / 3250 = 0.000094 dmg/sec/MW 17.5% difference. But I guess tachs are better in some circumstances.
John Zeppe	Posted - 2003.11.19 17:25:00 - [5] I tried a ganking setup on chaos the other day, on a megathron. 4 tachyons, 2 H-50 arbalests with torpedos. 3 cap power relay, 4 extruded heat sinks. Yes, some really expensive equipment (6*4 million for the looted stuff maybe)... But I got shocked at the results. A few volleys killed a scorpions shield, the ship was gone in a minute. Probably... Less.
Ana Khouri	Posted - 2003.11.19 17:40:00 - [6] Quote: I've been using them for awhile and the best shot I've had is about 890ish, whereas I've heard other people saying that they get 1100ish with projectiles? Tach: ROF of 12.5 secs 1400: ROF of 23.63 secs Always compare damage over time, not damage per shot free speech not allowed here
Nirvy	Posted - 2003.11.19 17:57:00 - [7] Edited by: Nirvy on 19/11/2003 17:58:53 Quote: Quote: I've been using them for awhile and the best shot I've had is about 890ish, whereas I've heard other people saying that they get 1100ish with projectiles? Tach: ROF of 12.5 secs 1400: ROF of 23.63 secs Always compare damage over time, not damage per shot True, but min bship skill lowers this by up to 25%, rapid fire by up to 25%, 2 CB's is another 20% My 1400mm fire at 9.5 sec (or around that, im at work) 1400 on a tempest beats tachs. 1400 on any other ships is no where near as good as a tach. DoT is useful, but i prefer to kill a ship before they can start doing more dmg over time. Hitting as hard as possible, as fast as possible is my motto ;) Mercenary \| The Azath
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.11.19 18:08:00 - [8] Quote: Edited by: Nirvy on 19/11/2003 17:58:53 Quote: Quote: I've been using them for awhile and the best shot I've had is about 890ish, whereas I've heard other people saying that they get 1100ish with projectiles? Tach: ROF of 12.5 secs 1400: ROF of 23.63 secs Always compare damage over time, not damage per shot True, but min bship skill lowers this by up to 25%, rapid fire by up to 25%, 2 CB's is another 20% My 1400mm fire at 9.5 sec (or around that, im at work) 1400 on a tempest beats tachs. 1400 on any other ships is no where near as good as a tach. DoT is useful, but i prefer to kill a ship before they can start doing more dmg over time. Hitting as hard as possible, as fast as possible is my motto ;) As a gank gun slappable on any vessel, Tachs are pretty good. They have their weakness but there usually isn't time to exploit those weaknesses. But a 1400mm will tear through a ship. And like you said DoT matter little if you don't give them the Time part of the acronym. Now quiet, else everyone will be flyin about in Tempests I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Stepping Razor	Posted - 2003.11.19 18:14:00 - [9] Edited by: Stepping Razor on 19/11/2003 18:14:39 No they are not overpowered. There just isn't an analogue for them in Hybrid. Minmatar have artillery, but 1/2 the races in EVE don't have an uuber L gun (don't talk to me about 425 rails or neutrons either, I own a full load-out of each and they're not even as good as Mega Beams). So they're not really overpowered. They just lack serious competition. Gimme a Dual 425 railgun. I'll be happy then :) Razor Originally by: Bonaventure Phaidon CCP is the best at at least three things: 1. Really, really fun gameplay 2. Good forum presence 3. Inventing new and exciting ways to bring about in-game catacly
Ana Khouri	Posted - 2003.11.19 20:29:00 - [10] Quote: True, but min bship skill lowers this by up to 25%, rapid fire by up to 25%, 2 CB's is another 20% My 1400mm fire at 9.5 sec (or around that, im at work) 1400 on a tempest beats tachs. 1400 on any other ships is no where near as good as a tach. Well, rapid fire (which is 20% max - 4% per level) and gunnery are skills which will apply to the tach as well, same with damage mods. The only bonus which the tach isn't getting is the ship bonus. The tach has a DoT of 0.34, while the 1400 has on a tempest with BS lvl4 one of 0.317 and with BS lvl5 one of 0.353 The 1400 beats tachs on a tempest, right, but only if you have a BS skill level of 5. Quote: DoT is useful, but i prefer to kill a ship before they can start doing more dmg over time. Hitting as hard as possible, as fast as possible is my motto ;) Err.. 1400's have the slowest ROF of all weapons, so they are the weapon most dependant on being viewed by DoT. Your motto fits for a hybrid blaster user, but for sure not on a artilelry user. free speech not allowed here

Fallen Angel	Posted - 2003.11.19 21:16:00 - [11] With battleship 4, the 1400mm will be CLOSE to the tachyon, barely use capacitor, and use less powercore... when you can fit 4 tachyons, you can fit 5 1400mm also, what about damage type versality? I'm sure a shield hardener would ruin the tachyon user's day... Now if you want an artillery battle from like 90km... 425mm wins... iron or iridium shots in a scorpion, you can have 4x425mm, and iron shots... battleship 4, sharp shooter 4... tracking computer 1... optimal of 98,841.6m Now lets see a tachyon user gatecamp then :-P jump in, 2x mwd away, start blasting
Dreez	Posted - 2003.11.19 22:04:00 - [12] All i know about Tachyons is that they are not that unbalanced as some might think. Just take a look at all the juice they require to mount on a ship, and their activationcost - not to mension that their tracking sucks if you dont have any tracking-module fitted. When it comes to the damage , can vouch for that they acually can hit for over 1000 dmg with only 1 Heatsink - i get 1000+ Wreckings on my Apoc with only 1 Extruded . Tachyons are according to me, along with 1400s the true weapons of Battleships, they require massive amounts of grid, track like $hit and when they DO hit - it can really hurt. 'Trying to argue logically with Evol is like trying to teach a pig to dance. It only makes you look foolish and really annoys the pig ' - Duke Droklar [OC]
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2003.11.19 23:25:00 - [13] Jash, I'll have a Tempest by the weekend. \o/ LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Centuri	Posted - 2003.11.19 23:55:00 - [14] Just got a Tempest today! But yeah, it was just for the looks, 1400mm and all proj really suck, min ships especiialy BSs suck also......
Drago Musevni	Posted - 2003.11.20 00:08:00 - [15] Edited by: Drago Musevni on 20/11/2003 00:09:17 It is not that Tachyon's are over-powered. It is that other weapons types needed some work. Missiles were addressed, how well I don't know I ain't a missile user unless you count defenders :) . Hybrids are in the process af being looked at and thankfully as part of that the size of large ammo for both hybird and proj is currently down to 0.1 on chaos. So instead fo being 5 times the size of the medium ammo, it is only twice the size. Lasers have been used for NPC hunting for one big reason, ammo takes up cargo space that could be used for loot. I am a Megathron pilot and moved to lasers for this reason, especially when you got 4 ammo for every 1m3 of cargo space. You just couldn't go on long range hunts for very long due to running out of ammo. Thus lasers are very popular and I suspect they will remain so even after the current balancing changes hit TQ. I know that if I am going to go on an extended NPC hunt away from any stations (like 12+ jumps to nearest station) I will be taking my beams. If I hunt close to home (between 3-5 jumps or so) I will strap on my hybrids again. As to damage you score, does it really matter against NPC's ? They will die eventually, as long as you have cap to use a shield booster, you will out live any NPC rat. Now PvP I will conceed is different and that is where I will stop talking about PvP for the very simple reason, I don't do it therefore have no experience or place to comment on it. I will leave discussions of that nature to players emminantly more qualitied and experienced than myself. ________________________________ "You know, I used to think it was awful that life was so unfair. Then I thought, wouldn't it be much worse if life were fair, and all the terrible things that happen to us come because we actually deserve them? So, now I take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe." --Marcus
Arabian Goggle	Posted - 2003.11.20 00:12:00 - [16] Dreez, How the heck are you hitting for over 1000 dmg? I run 3 Tachs (multi frequency crystals) on my Apoc with 4 dmg mods. I have large energy turret skill at level 3 and I still only wreck for 400+. What gives?
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.11.20 00:16:00 - [17] Quote: Jash, I'll have a Tempest by the weekend. \o/ I'll be able to fly a Scorpion in...3 hours I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Stoop	Posted - 2003.11.20 00:21:00 - [18] Edited by: Stoop on 20/11/2003 00:22:21 Ouch.. 400? I have surigical lvl 3, large energy 1, and a heatsink 1 and get get 700dmg shots. Even with lvl 3 gallente BS and lvl 3 hybrids (30% dmg and 15% tracking) vs lvl 1 large energy (5% dmg) I would probably still use tachs in a large fleet engagement. I can mine with 4 miner IIs, and defend from 40k and 50k spawns with 3 tachs, 4 cap relays, and a heatsink. If you ask me, thats a bit too good ;p. And thats with a mwd on. The only gun that I like better them is Pre patch Ion blasters (BS variety) With the old module stacking they could make a dent. Edit, and the Old school dual 425 scouts were uber as well.
Arabian Goggle	Posted - 2003.11.20 00:27:00 - [19] Edited by: Arabian Goggle on 20/11/2003 00:28:49 My terrible damage must be because of my tracking or something. Do you guys have uber tracking skills or are you using tracking mods?
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.11.20 00:27:00 - [20] Quote: When it comes to the damage , can vouch for that they acually can hit for over 1000 dmg with only 1 Heatsink - i get 1000+ Wreckings on my Apoc with only 1 Extruded . How the hell can you get 1k wreckings from a Tach with a single extruded on an Apoc? I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante

Arabian Goggle	Posted - 2003.11.20 00:28:00 - [21] My terrible damage must be because of my tracking or something. Do you guys have uber tracking skills or are you using tracking mods?
Slithereen	Posted - 2003.11.20 01:44:00 - [22] Edited by: Slithereen on 20/11/2003 01:44:43 Quote: With battleship 4, the 1400mm will be CLOSE to the tachyon, barely use capacitor, and use less powercore... when you can fit 4 tachyons, you can fit 5 1400mm also, what about damage type versality? I'm sure a shield hardener would ruin the tachyon user's day... Shields already have a built in resistance to projectile explosive damage (60%). But if you want an shield hardener to deal with Explosive Damage, I got tons I can sell you and I can find more in Amarr space just killing 8K rats. _______________________________________________ "Is it me or the bad guys just getting totally pathetic?"---Clover, Totally Spies, "Hope is wasted on the Hopeless."---Mandy, The Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy. "Stars are holes in the sky from which the light of the Infinite shine through."---Confucius.
Dreez	Posted - 2003.11.20 01:54:00 - [23] I will not reveal my Gunneryskills, but i can say that they are not few nore low . When i go hunt NPCs i use only 1 Sink, the rest of my setup is for me to know only. Regular Wreckings goes around 8-900 , those 1000+ are "rare" but they happen. Spend a month or 2 training your Gunneryskills and you should see a huge diffrense . 'Trying to argue logically with Evol is like trying to teach a pig to dance. It only makes you look foolish and really annoys the pig ' - Duke Droklar [OC]
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.11.20 02:16:00 - [24] Quote: I will not reveal my Gunneryskills, but i can say that they are not few nore low . When i go hunt NPCs i use only 1 Sink, the rest of my setup is for me to know only. Regular Wreckings goes around 8-900 , those 1000+ are "rare" but they happen. Spend a month or 2 training your Gunneryskills and you should see a huge diffrense . I'm saying because the Apoc doesn't have any bonus to damage that difference between one of my wreckings to yours is odd, even accounting for possible skill differences. I must not be hitting the top end on the 1400mm. Best I've pulled is 1.2k Any difference between your skils and mine should be made up with Minmatar Battleship 4 and 3 gyros I have on one of my setups. And the skill difference can't be that huge, given 5 is the limit of any skill and that's pretty much all that's left on most of the relevant gunnery skills. I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Dreez	Posted - 2003.11.20 03:31:00 - [25] Then i cannot say what makes me hit so hard, since i dont know myself. You say you "might have" the same rank in gunneryskills as i have, and that might be very true - and then my guess is just pure luck. 'Trying to argue logically with Evol is like trying to teach a pig to dance. It only makes you look foolish and really annoys the pig ' - Duke Droklar [OC]
Admiral IceBlock	Posted - 2003.11.20 11:30:00 - [26] the actully problem i think the Tachyons has its that it can hit targets 10km away and lower... Does 6 Frigates wouldnt survive long with a Apoc fitted with 5 Tachyons... From 200 - 400 dmg each shot will destroy any frigate drivers day.... So, its either the Tachyons fault or the Frigates fault.. "We brake for nobody"
Jazz Bo	Posted - 2003.11.20 12:07:00 - [27] Edited by: Jazz Bo on 20/11/2003 12:08:45 Quote: My terrible damage must be because of my tracking or something. Do you guys have uber tracking skills or are you using tracking mods? Yes, but that shouldn't matter... shouldn't a Wrecking Hit do the same damage regardless of range or tracking? Anyways, something is obviously wrong. Even I can hit up to 800 with a Tach+multifreq. And that's in a Dominix, large Energy Turret 2, Surgical Strike 3, one Thermal Exhaust. Originally by: DB Preacher Celestial Apocalypse - Brave souls fighting the endless smak.
qrac	Posted - 2003.11.20 12:43:00 - [28] one wrecking hit from a tachyon takes down the shield of npc-rats. armour has much more resistance to thermal and em dmg so that might explain it. ------------------------------------------- Insanes numquam moriuntur!
Lucre	Posted - 2003.11.20 12:59:00 - [29] Quote: tachyon: 4.25 / 12.5 / 4250 = 0.00008 dmg/sec/MW mega beam: 2.75 / 9 / 3250 = 0.000094 dmg/sec/MW 17.5% difference. But I guess tachs are better in some circumstances. Also: tachyon 4.25 / 12.5 / 125 = 0.00272 dmg/sec/CAP mega 2.75 / 9 / 70 = 0.00437 dmg/sec/CAP Even bigger difference. Point is, I guess, if you can afford the grid and if you can afford the cap then a Tach gives you more bang/slot. Which might allow you to free up a hi-slot for a missile launcher, autotargeter, medium turret, miner, whatever.
Beringe	Posted - 2003.11.20 14:17:00 - [30] At what range do 1400mm artilleries stop hitting (...well)? I know that tachyons have pretty good tracking considering the damage they do, but they usefulness does drop a little close up. All things considered, I'm fairly pleased with how the guns are balanced, especially considering the boost hybrids are getting. ------------------------------------------- "My main griveance with the Caldari state was that once I had finished my work for them, they wanted me dead." "No, it's none of your business."



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