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FT Diomedes
The Graduates Get Off My Lawn
1553
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Posted - 2015.08.13 17:35:01 -
[31] - Quote
Nyalnara wrote:Well, the current NPE does not give experience. How do you propose to solve that?
Play the game. You'll learn. Your player cannot die or otherwise suffer irreparable loss.
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. So, why do I post here?
I'm stubborn.
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Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
2
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Posted - 2015.08.13 17:46:28 -
[32] - Quote
Nyalnara wrote:Well, the current NPE does not give experience. How do you propose to solve that? Low SP prevents corp entry in many cases. The NPE actually improving is an SP problem; and low retention and overall amounts of SP prevent the improvement of many areas of gampeplay:
Sov Large groups of advanced ships are about the only way of instigating the larger corps in null. If null instigation is reduced, that's a content problem. So, the obvious methodology of improving even null gameplay is the availability of interesting and effective classes (frigs are relatively uninteresting in blobbing, for example). "N+1 is an SP problem."
Item availability beyond hubs This is more than a QOL idea, but low industry SP has a snowball effect for the main trade stations. Obvious benefits come from seeding stations; so there's some reason that most stations are empty, and it's obviously not demand: http://i.imgur.com/4SVgmUu.jpg
Literally everything else about a game being a sandbox There are always niches of play, as is evident with mining. The availability of much is the availability of content. SP is an arbitrary limitation, because skill and counters exist. Yet what is gameplay, if those skills and possibilities for counters are undermined by time gating? |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3213
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Posted - 2015.08.13 18:07:42 -
[33] - Quote
Nyalnara wrote: Those guys you're linking are NOT newbros. Those are new characters indeed, but the guy playing is really experienced, and is able to bypass the low skills through experience. Real newbros won't. And that's the point of this thread: newbros are bad, because they lack experience, AND skills. We cannot give them experience easily, as it depend of how we play, but we can give them a little more starting skills. 35M is way too much and everybody will agree about that, but more starting skills (reasonable amount) can hardly be a bad thing.
Yes, but at the same time it highlights how skill points are NOT the be all and end all to this game. Simply whining about the lack of SP and "not being able to do anything because of same lack of SP" is in reality false.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3213
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Posted - 2015.08.13 18:08:42 -
[34] - Quote
Nyalnara wrote:Well, the current NPE does not give experience. How do you propose to solve that?
Fix the NPE, duh.
JFCOAMFPS
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3214
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Posted - 2015.08.13 20:13:12 -
[35] - Quote
I'll also point out that people may very well end even more frustrated if they are given 35 million SP.
First off if we just give them 35 million SP they may not know where to put them. So if they put them in some skills and then later regret it we will get no end of the whine posts from all these players who were just flat out ignorant . You thought the AFK claoking threads were annoying....
Second, building on the ignorance notion, suppose you have players do a bit of research and decide to put the SP in skills for something they really want to do. However, just because you can get in a ship, fit it, and undock it...does not mean you can use said ship to its best advantage. That will come with experience, or learning-by-doing. The more you play the game the more fine points of your preferred activities you'll understand that are completely unrelated to SP. This can be considered something like capital accumulation (not money, but capital as in plant and equipment) human capital--i.e. knowledge that exists inside the player....in his head. So the 35 million SP player undocks, zips off to null and gets shot in the face and wakes up in his home station. How long before we have threads from these ignorant players whining and whining about how unfair the game is! Especially if they lost their advanced ship to a guy in a T1 ship who has taken the time to learn aspects of the game unrelated to SP? Especially if they fall into the "Bigger is Better" trap and die to a smaller class of ship?
Third, are null sec alliances going to maintain their current SP requirements? No. If the current alliance threshold is say, 20 million SP, you change starting SP by giving new players 35 million SP then the NS alliance threshold will likely go to 55 million.
So our new player SP warriors will be back here starting more threads whining about being turned away from NS alliances and how they need 55 million SP.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
97
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Posted - 2015.08.13 21:12:57 -
[36] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:A newbie with 35M SP is still a newbie, one that has no idea on how to leverage that SP effectively. The current SP system is designed around players learning the nuances of both the ships and the game as they progress.
True, but it would be quicker to learn the game than to train skills to 35 mill from 50k sp. |
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
729
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Posted - 2015.08.13 23:14:45 -
[37] - Quote
Avvy wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:A newbie with 35M SP is still a newbie, one that has no idea on how to leverage that SP effectively. The current SP system is designed around players learning the nuances of both the ships and the game as they progress. True, but it would be quicker to learn the game than to train skills to 35 mill from 50k sp.
Most of the stuff a noob needs to learn can be learned well under this amount. Like how to actually fly, Skills levels on char screen != actual playing skill.
Broken record time.....if a noob can;'t fly a rifter worth a damn nothing magical happens in a jaguar/wolf. Fill in other racial ships to taste. Or higher stuff like HAC and its t1 base cruiser. The only magical effect techinically is the wallet drain really.
I was in 0.0 and very productive like 3-4 months into game. take base attributes, put in +3 implants...calc the sp this would be (I cba to do it....needless to say its a bit under 35 mil sp lol).
Scouting and tackling not glamourous jobs to some....but they need to check that damned ego imo. Low sp noob can be real vital real quick. Fly like ass what and your are scouting can have a bad night really fast.
Eve is like rl....you are as useful as you think you are. Eagerness and ability to learn go a long way. If a player thinks they are useless for superficial crap like this it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy real fast. Will get some elitist tards you deal with ofc. But well...if you care about what those idiots think you got issues. Again this is like rl....try to find the chill people to roll with and avoid the asshats really. |
Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
552
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Posted - 2015.08.14 01:13:48 -
[38] - Quote
Nyalnara wrote:As far as i know, as an instructor for a school corp, the main problem encountered by our newbros is the fact that, to begin being competitive, they need core skills, because it allows for better fitting, tanking, and so on. Core skills are int+mem, and all other usefull skills while starting, combat related ones, are perc+willp. Problem, officer? Obvious fixes (you may choose multiple answers, i don't care): - Remove attributes. That way, new players will not screw themselves while going through core skills and SC or gunnery at the same time. Except all older players may or may not be penalized, depending if new training time is average current training time, or fastest current training time.
- Give more core skills. That way, new players (and alts) will be able to focus on what they want to play, then go back to (and remap for) core skills later if needed.
- Lower the Weapon Upgrade V from Advanced Weapon Upgrade, to 4 or even 3. Because the main problem with fitting for new players is most of the time PWG, not CPU. Especially when trying to fit those PWG-hungry T2 weapons. (And slap a Weapon Upgrade V requirement on Marauder, we don't want those ships to be more accessible.)
Marauders require both AWU and WU to 5 already. I like the rest of this, though.
"Tomahawks?"
"----in' A, right?"
"Trouble is, those things cost like a million and a half each."
"----, you pay me half that and I'll hump in some c4 and blow the ---- out of it my own damn self."
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ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
699
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Posted - 2015.08.14 02:43:55 -
[39] - Quote
Allysa Nar wrote:I would like to say that I consider myself new to Eve online having played about every other MMO out there. I don't know if this is an appropriate forum to post this, but I know what limits Eve from attracting new players.
Simply it takes too long to skill up. There is no way too power level skills. So the problem here is that you have played every other MMO out there and came to Eve trying to play it as if it were WoW or one of it's myriad of clones and it is not those games. Your skill points are simply not holding you back from doing anything. It is your game knowledge and you are correct there is no way to power level that. In Eve you have to learn the game. You have to take your lumps and gain experience just like everyone else had to and there is not eliestjerks.com to short cut your way to easy wins.
Yes we know this is limiting the number of people that will play eve and it is limiting the people that frankly I don't want playing the game anyway. If you are looking for easy win- instant gratification gaming then I am glad to see you go back to all those other games and stay out of my glorious and difficult game.
Allysa Nar wrote: New players have the Eve learning curve to contend with. A daunting challenge in and of itself. To make matters worse the skills necessary to actually do anything in the game take years.
Yes they do and honestly so do us vets. This game is very deep and very complex and in many ways I still feel like a noob. Not to mention the fact that they have changed so much of this game that in many aspects of this game there are players much younger than myself which know far more than me.
If you enjoy learning and being rewarded for your efforts Eve can be a very gratifying game. If you are used to being jerked off an congratulated for every little thing that you do and enjoy games that hand you everything with little to no effort then this game is not for you.
There is no breadcrumb storyline quest series to get you from 0 to 100 and teach you every aspect of the game inbetween. There is no one path through this game. There is no one way to play this game. There is no level cap. There is no structured PvP of even up groups of players of the same level and similar gear score. There is no 25 man raid or PvE that scales with group size. There is no instanced PvE where you are immune to other players coming in and messing with you.
These to me are the pluses that this game has to offer. If you think this is what is holding this game back then may I suggest that you are free to go back from wence you came.
And as far as needing years of skill training you simply do not. It just is not true and shows how little you understand about the game. You do not have to take my word for it there are plenty and plenty of vets out there that have done very well on very very young toons. This is a link to only one of them but there are many many more vets who have proven you wrong by solo pwning on days old alts. |
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
2
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Posted - 2015.08.14 10:52:55 -
[40] - Quote
ergherhdfgh wrote:Yes we know this is limiting the number of people that will play eve and it is limiting the people that frankly I don't want playing the game anyway. If you are looking for easy win- instant gratification gaming then I am glad to see you go back to all those other games and stay out of my glorious and difficult game.
What authority comes with this post, that it gets to say what subs the game and company deserve..
As for the Suitonia videos, the game is more than PvP; and my previous post explains multiple reasons why low SP is especially negative for gameplay and content, including sov and null. |
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ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
701
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Posted - 2015.08.14 11:26:39 -
[41] - Quote
Dror wrote:ergherhdfgh wrote:Yes we know this is limiting the number of people that will play eve and it is limiting the people that frankly I don't want playing the game anyway. If you are looking for easy win- instant gratification gaming then I am glad to see you go back to all those other games and stay out of my glorious and difficult game. What authority comes with this post, that it gets to say what subs the game and company deserve.. I speak of my own authority and for my own self and never claimed any different.
As for what the Devs think on this topic you can go back and read plenty of dev blogs and watch several fanfest videos that either directly address this question or touch on the subject in some way. My summary of my take on that is that the CCP Devs understand that they have a niche game with a niche audience. They are also aware that they are one of the oldest if not the oldest MMOs out there and this game saw stead growth, granted it was slow but slow steady growth is good, from day one of the game up until the jita riot and that was a result of them trying to leave the niche and become like other MMOs.
I personally feel like they learned their lesson after the jita riots and now will stick more closely to their target audience. However if you dig around you can find dev blogs where they flat out say that they understand Eve is not for everyone. It is a brutal hard core game that many people won't like. But they do have their target audience and hopefully now are catering to it.
Dror wrote: As for the Suitonia videos, the game is more than PvP; and my previous post explains multiple reasons why low SP is especially negative for gameplay and content, including sov and null.
As for this I am not going back and reading your post. Come back to me when you've been playing this game for a few years and get to be experienced and then have started a fresh alt and play it again with low SP but experience. I've done that as have a lot of other vets and what you realize is t hat low skill points does not hold you back from anything. You are blaming your lack of skill and game knowledge on skill points.
I think this game does an excellent job of giving you skills at a rate that you can effectively take them in and make use of them. Giving them to you any faster won't help your learning curve issue. And if you think this is not true then go buy a high skill point character and watch what happens. These forums are littered with the tears of young players that purchased high skill point characters and still had all the same issues when they though skill points would save them.
In WoW a level 10 character does not stand a chance against a level 100. Literally the level 100 could walk away from his computer and leave his house and go to the movies and his character would not die with the level 10 beating on him. In eve a 2 week old character in a frigate can kill a 10 year old player in a battleship. Also there is no structured 5 v 5 or 40 v 40 PvP in Eve that limits levels and gear score so that all players are of the same level and with similar gear so in your 1000 man fleet fighting sov warfare you'll have to convince me how skill points is keeping you back from enjoying or participating in any kind of game play.
As far as there being more than PvP in this game, I am a total carebear. As someone not interested in PvP I can tell you this most certainly is a PvP focused game and the PvPers and the Devs will tell you the same thing.
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Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
2
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Posted - 2015.08.14 12:17:39 -
[42] - Quote
ergherhdfgh wrote:As for this I am not going back and reading your post. Then what prerogative do you have to say that it's irrelevant, or that the argument comes from some level of experience?
..As well as implying what the argument actually is?
ergherhdfgh wrote:..This game does an excellent job of giving you skills at a rate that you can effectively take them in and make use of them. Giving them to you any faster won't help your learning curve issue. On what grounds? ..That SP-training for months for one ship, class, or playstyle benefits gameplay mastery? Shouldn't fresh musicianship practice with the instrument for getting better?
How quickly this idea is refuted. |
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
440
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Posted - 2015.08.14 13:54:43 -
[43] - Quote
Avvy wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:A newbie with 35M SP is still a newbie, one that has no idea on how to leverage that SP effectively. The current SP system is designed around players learning the nuances of both the ships and the game as they progress. True, but it would be quicker to learn the game than to train skills to 35 mill from 50k sp. Here is the question that you did not answer. If they join up and start losing the expensive ships that high SP would allow them to fly would they stay in the game long enough for their personal skills to catch up and minimize or eliminate those expensive ship losses?
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Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
2
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Posted - 2015.08.14 13:57:04 -
[44] - Quote
Donnachadh wrote:Here is the question that you did not answer. If they join up and start losing the expensive ships that high SP would allow them to fly would they stay in the game long enough for their personal skills to catch up and minimize or eliminate those expensive ship losses?
Why is that a question? They'd have to afford the ships first. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
3215
|
Posted - 2015.08.14 19:01:36 -
[45] - Quote
Dror wrote:Donnachadh wrote:Here is the question that you did not answer. If they join up and start losing the expensive ships that high SP would allow them to fly would they stay in the game long enough for their personal skills to catch up and minimize or eliminate those expensive ship losses?
Why is that a question? They'd have to afford the ships first.
I'm sure that would be the next whine thread.
"I have the skills to fly [insert bling boat X here] but I don't have the ISK. New players should start with 1 billion ISK."
Arguments in favor of fun, new players, and player retention would be made. Me? I'd be making and biomassing characters after transfering that ISK to my main and various alts. You think PLEX prices are high now!
Oh, and depending on where that 35 million SP go, making ISK can be stupid easy. I'd put a chunk into PI so I could rake in the ISK there. So, even if they aren't getting the ISK and the SP to jump into [insert bling boat X here] right away, they'd likely be getting into it well before they understood the game's mechanics to fly such boats and not lose them with a hi
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Arthur Aihaken
Perkone Caldari State
4571
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Posted - 2015.08.14 19:03:01 -
[46] - Quote
Allysa Nar wrote:I would like to say that I consider myself new to Eve online having played about every other MMO out there. I don't know if this is an appropriate forum to post this, but I know what limits Eve from attracting new players. There aren't enough ISK doublers in Jita?
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
440
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Posted - 2015.08.15 02:56:10 -
[47] - Quote
Dror wrote:Donnachadh wrote:Here is the question that you did not answer. If they join up and start losing the expensive ships that high SP would allow them to fly would they stay in the game long enough for their personal skills to catch up and minimize or eliminate those expensive ship losses?
Why is that a question? They'd have to afford the ships first. Wondering what EvE you play because in the one I am in players like this simply convert real cash money into ISK by buying plex, no doubt some of them probably convert cash directly into ISK through various sources around the internet. If you have never heard of plex before or how one can legally acquire them from outside the game then I suggest you do a little research on it before posting stuff like this.
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Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
2
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Posted - 2015.08.15 03:18:16 -
[48] - Quote
Donnachadh wrote:Players like this simply convert real cash money into ISK by buying plex Not sure how relevant the idea is, that every character benefiting from increased starting SP purchases PLEX for the ISK experience.
The point is that making enough for ships is sorta inherent with gameplay -- figuring out the economy in a game is progression, which comes from motivation, which comes from competence, autonomy, and relatedness.
So does SP promote competence? It's already stated, then acknowledged, that learning the the game is "much quicker" than training 35M SP; so if SP undermines competence, then it also undermines the psychological rewards (well-being, relatedness..) that are being studied as natural progression. In other words, subs are an SP problem because the game seeming fun is an SP problem. Autonomy is already established by how fantastic flying powerful ships is. |
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
442
|
Posted - 2015.08.15 13:41:12 -
[49] - Quote
Dror wrote:In other words, subs are an SP problem because the game seeming fun is an SP problem. Autonomy is already established by how fantastic flying powerful ships is. We are not all that far apart on this. We both agree that SP and ISK can be crucial issues to retention of new players in this game. Where we differ is at what level these interconnected factors need to be set for those new players.
35 million SP for a first day character is not just a bad idea it is ******** as is the current starting level.
CCP tried to balance this by adding bonus re-maps and that was the wrong way to go as well since new character skills train so fast the remaps are for all practical purposes irrelevant for the first 2 months or so at least.
So where is the proper balance for a new character? Personally I would like to see CCp remove the bonus remaps and other gimmicks they have tried to ease the SP issue and start new character with an already trained solid set of basic skills. So I guess that would open up a debate on what would be a solid set of basic skills. |
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
2
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Posted - 2015.08.15 14:08:10 -
[50] - Quote
Donnachadh wrote:So where is the proper balance for a new character? Personally I would like to see CCP remove the bonus remaps and other gimmicks they have tried to ease the SP issue and start new character with an already trained solid set of basic skills. So I guess that would open up a debate on what would be a solid set of basic skills. Why not 35M? Protip, a game like Star Citizen won't have SP limitations at all. Finding the equivalent of an empty Nyx in space won't be limited by "how much that character's been subbed for the game".
Inb4 "but flying skill" -- these ships have autopilot. |
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Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
735
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Posted - 2015.08.15 14:39:18 -
[51] - Quote
Dror wrote:
Inb4 "but flying skill" -- these ships have autopilot.
Do not confuse killing rats with killing a real player who has some skill.
Ever engage a player target right click auto orbit?
Let me rephrase...ever engage a smart player target right click auto orbit?
Bad things happen in the latter case. They do a crazy ivan (hard jink), the autopilot goes wonky real fast. Worst case its course correction is a straight 180 degree turn. Smart player takes this chance to rip you a new one and have their way with it. It allows them to close really fast. You are also at virtually 0 traversal.....you get tagged hard.
Or it gives the few seconds for target to warp off.
Worth noting autopilot does this on target hops as well. Test this in pve if you'd like. Line up 5 targets....orbit each one. Kill target 1, set orbit on 2. This flightpath will be anything but smooth and graceful most times. Do this at fleet level ops and your ship will all over the place really. This can be bad...especially if playing in falloff range. Those x-over points can be hair thin. Cross them and watch the damage drop fast.
Manual flight gives the benefit of better range control in changing situations. It can almost be like pool. You aren't thinking sink the 5 ball. You are thinking I hit 5 ball a certain way to drop it and line up the shot to follow from the rebound of the 5 shot. |
admiral root
Red Galaxy
3045
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Posted - 2015.08.15 15:01:04 -
[52] - Quote
Allysa Nar wrote:To be honest as a new player all I do anymore is queue my skills. I started my career with other characters doing mining/industrial to generate isk to do other things. Long story short I made tons of isk but my playstyle choices were limited despite having multiple accounts. Ultimately I made mistakes in building all of these as I learned the game.
Claims to be new player, posts about all the non-new player things it's done.
Allysa Nar wrote:Simply it takes too long to skill up.
No.
No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff
CODE. forum - everyone's welcome (no shiptoasters)
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Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
2
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Posted - 2015.08.15 15:30:56 -
[53] - Quote
Zan Shiro wrote:Do not confuse killing rats with killing a real player who has some skill.
Ever engage a player target right click auto orbit?
Let me rephrase...ever engage a smart player target right click auto orbit?
Bad things happen in the latter case. They do a crazy ivan (hard jink), the autopilot goes wonky real fast. Worst case its course correction is a straight 180 degree turn. Smart player takes this chance to rip you a new one and have their way with it. It allows them to close really fast. You are also at virtually 0 traversal.....you get tagged hard.
Or it gives the few seconds for target to warp off.
Worth noting autopilot does this on target hops as well. Test this in pve if you'd like. Line up 5 targets....orbit each one. Kill target 1, set orbit on 2. This flightpath will be anything but smooth and graceful most times. Do this at fleet level ops and your ship will all over the place really. This can be bad...especially if playing in falloff range. Those x-over points can be hair thin. Cross them and watch the damage drop fast.
Manual flight gives the benefit of better range control in changing situations. It can almost be like pool. You aren't thinking sink the 5 ball. You are thinking I hit 5 ball a certain way to drop it and line up the shot to follow from the rebound of the 5 shot.
None of this is relevant with how SP limits finding an empty, expensive ship in space and finding the inability of getting in it. Yet standard overview-commands plausibly being a form of autopilot is an interesting idea.
..Nor does the efficiency of manual-piloting / other piloting information seem relevant for the level of sustain with fresh subs. There's plenty of readiness for developing skill with trying a game, but what posts are mentioning is that SP undermines the natural progression of gameplay and learning. The undermining of learning is shown in studies as promoting "aggressive" behavior, because it's not fulfilling development.. |
Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
425
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Posted - 2015.08.15 21:38:45 -
[54] - Quote
This comes up time and time again. If you make a game so you have all the fun and all the content RIGHT NOW, well why bother playing tomorrow? That game is just another FPS or whatever.
You want fast to play and win, well there are lots of pay to win MMOs out there. And well once you even take away the pay bit and its just click to win, well there are facebook games for that.
If your to immature to enjoy the journey as well as the destination. Your to immature for eve.
Death and Glory!
Well fun is also good.
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Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
24746
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Posted - 2015.08.15 22:15:46 -
[55] - Quote
Dror wrote:Donnachadh wrote:So where is the proper balance for a new character? Personally I would like to see CCP remove the bonus remaps and other gimmicks they have tried to ease the SP issue and start new character with an already trained solid set of basic skills. So I guess that would open up a debate on what would be a solid set of basic skills. Why not 35M? Protip, a game like Star Citizen won't have SP limitations at all. Finding the equivalent of an empty Nyx in space won't be limited by "how much that character's been subbed for the game". Inb4 "but flying skill" -- these ships have autopilot. Do not confuse Star Citizen with Eve, they only thing that they have in common is the underlying theme. Star Citizen has more in common with SWG than it does Eve, and it certainly not aimed at the same demographic.
TL;DR CCP are unlikely to ruin and kill their game in order to make WoW in space. They're not looking to be players in the mass market, they seem to be like making a challenging, unique, game and being leaders in a niche market.
Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
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Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
2
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Posted - 2015.08.15 22:32:25 -
[56] - Quote
Delt0r Garsk wrote:..Have all the fun and all the content RIGHT NOW, well why bother playing? The game is just another FPS or whatever. The main FPS games get an incredible amount of concurrent players, from 500k+. "Why are those games worth playing?" Obviously there's more, for greater levels of instant gratification, than would immediately seem. It's already mentioned that feelings of competence are the basis of motivation, with other progresses. If it seems like the game is undermining progress, that's a problem. |
Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
426
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Posted - 2015.08.17 08:27:25 -
[57] - Quote
Dror wrote:Delt0r Garsk wrote:..Have all the fun and all the content RIGHT NOW, well why bother playing? The game is just another FPS or whatever. The main FPS games get an incredible amount of concurrent players, from 500k+. "Why are those games worth playing?" Obviously there's more, for greater levels of instant gratification, than would immediately seem. It's already mentioned that feelings of competence are the basis of motivation, with other progresses. If it seems like the game is undermining progress, that's a problem. Did you deliberately misquote me? FPS have servers the size of 16-100 players max. And nobody plays the same one for much more than a year. Not the same as a MMO at all. Not even in the same galaxy.
Death and Glory!
Well fun is also good.
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Dror
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
2
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Posted - 2015.08.17 12:00:37 -
[58] - Quote
Delt0r Garsk wrote:Did you deliberately misquote me? FPS have servers the size of 16-100 players max. And nobody plays the same one for much more than a year. Not the same as a MMO at all. Not even in the same galaxy. CS:GO release date: August 21, 2012..
Is there any rebuttal that SP undermines competence and relatedness? It's an MMO, and one that can thrive solely on skill and socialization; so it's pretty awful design that the main form of progression is non-progression -- non-interactivity -- that also negatively effects industry availability, causes an N+1 and SP+1 problem from limited corp progression, and thus reduces veteran content completely. |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
2647
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Posted - 2015.08.17 12:23:18 -
[59] - Quote
Progression has worked so well for making players stick with a game for longer that even instant gratification games like COD and BF have adopted level systems.
So eve is a game that can keep all players with skill and socialization, but also keeps players with progression.
Win win.
What is the non-interactivity you refer to? What is the n+1 sp+1 problem?
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
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Arla Sarain
600
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Posted - 2015.08.17 12:34:54 -
[60] - Quote
Dror wrote:ergherhdfgh wrote:..This game does an excellent job of giving you skills at a rate that you can effectively take them in and make use of them. Giving them to you any faster won't help your learning curve issue. On what grounds? ..That SP-training for months for one ship, class, or playstyle benefits gameplay mastery? Shouldn't fresh musicianship practice with the instrument for getting better? How quickly this idea is refuted. Don't draw parallels to real life.
Earn-as-you-go EXP is agonising because if you miss out on days or weeks of grinding you are left behind the rest of the group or populace. It forces people to play as much as possible and is far more guilty inducing for missing out playtime.
Considering that functional roles require very little in terms of skills and SP, and only extremely specialised roles require high SP, the real-time exp system offers decent gameplay opportunities.
The fault is not the system, but rather than the meta-shift. It is now FAR more valuable to have a broad selection of specialised ships than it was ever before. Which isn't very lenient to newer players.
But by making EXP based on how long you grind, this won't be fixed. And what's gonna happen when people set out to deliberately prevent newbies, who cannot defend themselves, from grinding? Their SP progress will come to a complete standstill. Careful what you ask for.
Current EXP system is far more advantageous since it lets you focus on the game. Not the part before the game.
P.S. What makes you think you wouldn't grind for months to get into a ship if SP was rewarded per grind? |
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