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Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
2580
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Posted - 2015.08.21 07:14:33 -
[31] - Quote
afkalt wrote:But it really doesn't matter. Either reps hold, or they do not. Buffer has NOTHING to offer there, but more time until you die. Resists scale logi, no matter the logi, buffer does not so they are not comparable. Except it does matter because your EHP determines how much time logi has to get reps on you. And since logi are so strong at current, pretty much once you have reps on you you're safe. So in a lot of cases, maybe most cases in PVP, buffer matters actually more than resists especially since a good buffer tank for the sake of buffer almost always has good resists already.
Pirate ship Nightmare, can you fathom
Larger but with smaller spikes than Phantasm
The Succubus looks meaner
But the Revenant cleaner
Seems as they get bigger, the smaller spikes they has'm
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1847
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Posted - 2015.08.21 07:48:50 -
[32] - Quote
I know, I already said that the only point in buffer is to not get alphad. However as fights scale this pretty quickly becomes pointless as it is DPS race to drop the enemy DPS to the point you can hold reps, there's just not enough buffer available on subcaps to make it viable.
The point is that buffing resists serves only to double down on how powerful logi is, it would make them even more oppressive in small scale battles. |
Spugg Galdon
Nisroc Angels FETID
746
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Posted - 2015.08.21 08:30:36 -
[33] - Quote
Arla Sarain wrote:Spugg Galdon wrote:
So 3 off CDFP II's at 25% reduction each only give a total reduction in shield recharge time by almost 58%
Whereas 3 off CDFE II rigs which buff shield hitpoints by 20% each give a total HP gain of 74%. See what's wrong here?
58% reduction in time is more than 74% increase in recharge amount. 1/0.42 = 2.38 or 138%. Three purgers are stronger than 3 extenders for recharge.
Sigh........
That wasn't my point. I was showing how other rigs have diminishing returns on what they are trying to achieve whereas buffer rigs are the only thing that has enhancing returns, that is each rig you fit is more powerful than the last in contrary to other rigs and modules which do the opposite. Each subsequent rig or module you fit should have a diminishing return.
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Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
2580
|
Posted - 2015.08.21 08:37:51 -
[34] - Quote
afkalt wrote:I know, I already said that the only point in buffer is to not get alphad. However as fights scale this pretty quickly becomes pointless as it is DPS race to drop the enemy DPS to the point you can hold reps, there's just not enough buffer available on subcaps to make it viable.
The point is that buffing resists serves only to double down on how powerful logi is, it would make them even more oppressive in small scale battles. No, you're wrong. The need for buffer for effective logi scales just as much with fleet size as does the need for resists for effective logi. The more ships there are to focus fire, the less time logi has to react.
Buffer is an important part of logi no matter how you look at it.
Spugg Galdon wrote: That wasn't my point. I was showing how other rigs have diminishing returns on what they are trying to achieve whereas buffer rigs are the only thing that has enhancing returns, that is each rig you fit is more powerful than the last in contrary to other rigs and modules which do the opposite. Each subsequent rig or module you fit should have a diminishing return.
Correct. However capacitor and shield recharge bonuses also have no stacking penalty and do compound on each other in the same way.
Pirate ship Nightmare, can you fathom
Larger but with smaller spikes than Phantasm
The Succubus looks meaner
But the Revenant cleaner
Seems as they get bigger, the smaller spikes they has'm
|
Arla Sarain
609
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Posted - 2015.08.21 09:32:07 -
[35] - Quote
Spugg Galdon wrote:Arla Sarain wrote:Spugg Galdon wrote:
So 3 off CDFP II's at 25% reduction each only give a total reduction in shield recharge time by almost 58%
Whereas 3 off CDFE II rigs which buff shield hitpoints by 20% each give a total HP gain of 74%. See what's wrong here?
58% reduction in time is more than 74% increase in recharge amount. 1/0.42 = 2.38 or 138%. Three purgers are stronger than 3 extenders for recharge. Sigh........ That wasn't my point. I was showing how other rigs have diminishing returns on what they are trying to achieve whereas buffer rigs are the only thing that has enhancing returns, that is each rig you fit is more powerful than the last in contrary to other rigs and modules which do the opposite. Each subsequent rig or module you fit should have a diminishing return. And I was pointing out that even with diminishing returns, rigs fitted for a particular purpose are still stronger than the generic choice. |
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
88
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Posted - 2015.08.21 10:54:05 -
[36] - Quote
afkalt wrote:I know, I already said that the only point in buffer is to not get alphad. However as fights scale this pretty quickly becomes pointless as it is DPS race to drop the enemy DPS to the point you can hold reps, there's just not enough buffer available on subcaps to make it viable.
The point is that buffing resists serves only to double down on how powerful logi is, it would make them even more oppressive in small scale battles.
You base everything around logi, but what about solo play where buffer gives you that extra 10-20 secs that that one resist mod wouldn't.
btw logi is OP as hell and needs a serious nerf. |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2127
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Posted - 2015.08.21 13:02:54 -
[37] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:afkalt wrote:I know, I already said that the only point in buffer is to not get alphad. However as fights scale this pretty quickly becomes pointless as it is DPS race to drop the enemy DPS to the point you can hold reps, there's just not enough buffer available on subcaps to make it viable.
The point is that buffing resists serves only to double down on how powerful logi is, it would make them even more oppressive in small scale battles. You base everything around logi, but what about solo play where buffer gives you that extra 10-20 secs that that one resist mod wouldn't. btw logi is OP as hell and needs a serious nerf.
In solo play, the buffer rig is meant to be more powerful. If you have no logi, then yes more buffer is kind as you have to last on the HP you already have from the start. Do you think resist rigs should be a better buffer rig than the raw buffer rigs? |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2127
|
Posted - 2015.08.21 15:51:28 -
[38] - Quote
Reaver Glitterstim wrote: Why do you think t1 hardeners grant 50% resist?
Well they are active and can eb neuted out. They also have a different fitting cost.
The rigs are close to the level of the passive mods which I think is fine. |
M1k3y Koontz
Respawn Disabled Initiative Mercenaries
784
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Posted - 2015.08.21 15:55:58 -
[39] - Quote
afkalt wrote:No, because you're forgetting how hard resists make logi repping multiply. Ever 0.1% makes the absolute values of HP repped by logi that much harder to re-remove.
In other words, buffer doesn't scale with logi, resists do.
This was why the hull bonuses dropped from 5% to 4%/level too.
Nerf RR.
How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
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Haatakan Reppola
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
72
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Posted - 2015.08.21 18:26:11 -
[40] - Quote
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:Ever run incursions? Most incursion FCs will tell you that you need resists at least 70% and buffer at least 100-150k EHP (if you're in a battleship). You can reach 70% resists across the board in a shield tanked T1 Megathron, but good luck actually squeezing out 150k EHP. There's a reason the minimum resist bar is so much lower than the minimum EHP bar, and it's due to the strength of logi making it so that response time is more important than actual rep strength. disclaimer: you wouldn't use a Megathron in incursion shield fleets. I'm using it as an example to demonstrate how easy it is to reach 70% resists.Barrogh Habalu wrote:Let us not forget that OP is the one who also suggests to cut repping power of RR in two to four, apparently. Hence comparisons with buffer rigs first, I suppose. Quoted for posterity.
You need 5 modules (DC + 2x Invu + EM field or amp + Thermal rig) to get 70% resists, not counting links or faction/deadspace. On a 4 mid slot ships that need prop mod that mean no more mid slots. Also the people telling you need 100-150k EHP have no idea what they are talking about, SHIELD EHP (or armor for armor fleets) is the only number you should be looking at. On a Vindicator you have to use 60% of your mod slots + 33% of your rig slots to reach 70% resistance, think 1 extender rig is wanted while using T2 modules but never instead of resistance rig!
If we compare that Megathron (LSE and 2x extender rig for 99k ehp) to a Vindicator with no extenders (94k ehp) we can see how little EHP realy means. The Megathron have 61k shield ehp while the Vindicator have only 41k shield ehp. (using t2 modules/rigs) As we can see the Megathron, while not a realistic fit, have +50% EHP for its tank while only having +5% total EHP |
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1854
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Posted - 2015.08.21 18:46:44 -
[41] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:afkalt wrote:I know, I already said that the only point in buffer is to not get alphad. However as fights scale this pretty quickly becomes pointless as it is DPS race to drop the enemy DPS to the point you can hold reps, there's just not enough buffer available on subcaps to make it viable.
The point is that buffing resists serves only to double down on how powerful logi is, it would make them even more oppressive in small scale battles. You base everything around logi, but what about solo play where buffer gives you that extra 10-20 secs that that one resist mod wouldn't. btw logi is OP as hell and needs a serious nerf. In solo play, the buffer rig is meant to be more powerful. If you have no logi, then yes more buffer is kind as you have to last on the HP you already have from the start. Do you think resist rigs should be a better buffer rig than the raw buffer rigs?
It's almost as if the two rigs serve distinct purposes batman!!! |
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
2582
|
Posted - 2015.08.22 02:19:06 -
[42] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Reaver Glitterstim wrote: Why do you think t1 hardeners grant 50% resist? Well they are active and can eb neuted out. They also have a different fitting cost. The rigs are close to the level of the passive mods which I think is fine. The rigs boost sig radius or ship mass. I think that's a worse penalty than the capacitor cost. Also, the rigs give less than the amplifiers/energized membranes after you factor in the reinforcing skills.
Pirate ship Nightmare, can you fathom
Larger but with smaller spikes than Phantasm
The Succubus looks meaner
But the Revenant cleaner
Seems as they get bigger, the smaller spikes they has'm
|
FT Diomedes
The Graduates Get Off My Lawn
1614
|
Posted - 2015.08.22 04:12:16 -
[43] - Quote
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Reaver Glitterstim wrote: Why do you think t1 hardeners grant 50% resist? Well they are active and can eb neuted out. They also have a different fitting cost. The rigs are close to the level of the passive mods which I think is fine. The rigs boost sig radius or ship mass. I think that's a worse penalty than the capacitor cost. Also, the rigs give less than the amplifiers/energized membranes after you factor in the reinforcing skills.
It's almost as if rigs are not the same as hardeners, amplifiers, or energized membranes. They have different strengths and weaknesses.
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. So, why do I post here?
I'm stubborn.
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Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
2582
|
Posted - 2015.08.22 04:19:24 -
[44] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:They have different strengths and weaknesses. A lot more weakness than strength.
Pirate ship Nightmare, can you fathom
Larger but with smaller spikes than Phantasm
The Succubus looks meaner
But the Revenant cleaner
Seems as they get bigger, the smaller spikes they has'm
|
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
89
|
Posted - 2015.08.22 05:15:33 -
[45] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:afkalt wrote:I know, I already said that the only point in buffer is to not get alphad. However as fights scale this pretty quickly becomes pointless as it is DPS race to drop the enemy DPS to the point you can hold reps, there's just not enough buffer available on subcaps to make it viable.
The point is that buffing resists serves only to double down on how powerful logi is, it would make them even more oppressive in small scale battles. You base everything around logi, but what about solo play where buffer gives you that extra 10-20 secs that that one resist mod wouldn't. btw logi is OP as hell and needs a serious nerf. In solo play, the buffer rig is meant to be more powerful. If you have no logi, then yes more buffer is kind as you have to last on the HP you already have from the start. Do you think resist rigs should be a better buffer rig than the raw buffer rigs?
Not better, but at least an alternative. Resist rigs are there to plug a hole, but with stacking penalties and the drawbacks, the go to rig of choice will almost always be the buffer rig unless you're in a gang where you know logi is available. The resist rigs would be more desirable in either situation (solo or gang) if the resist rigs are either: A) not stacking penalized, B) scale with compensation skills, or C) offer more base bonus percentage than the current. |
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
89
|
Posted - 2015.08.22 05:16:32 -
[46] - Quote
M1k3y Koontz wrote:afkalt wrote:No, because you're forgetting how hard resists make logi repping multiply. Ever 0.1% makes the absolute values of HP repped by logi that much harder to re-remove.
In other words, buffer doesn't scale with logi, resists do.
This was why the hull bonuses dropped from 5% to 4%/level too. Nerf RR.
This too!!
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FT Diomedes
The Graduates Get Off My Lawn
1615
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Posted - 2015.08.22 09:19:09 -
[47] - Quote
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:FT Diomedes wrote:They have different strengths and weaknesses. A lot more weakness than strength.
That is intentional. The fact that you cannot understand this really is beyond me.
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. So, why do I post here?
I'm stubborn.
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Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
2583
|
Posted - 2015.08.22 16:50:42 -
[48] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:That is intentional. The fact that you cannot understand this really is beyond me. Are you saying that the resist rigs are intended to be less powerful and therefore a less popular choice than the buffer rigs? Perhaps likewise it is intentional that the resist modules are more powerful and therefore more popular than the percentage buffer modules?
I don't see any reason for that to be the case but I've also never heard any indication that it is intended to be this way. It is this way, and I don't think it's supposed to be. This whole post is an attempt to convince people that it is that way, and I merely assume they will disagree with it if they realize as much. But so far, all of the flak I'm getting seems to come from folks who perceive the resist rigs to be just as useful if not more useful than the buffer rigs.
Pirate ship Nightmare, can you fathom
Larger but with smaller spikes than Phantasm
The Succubus looks meaner
But the Revenant cleaner
Seems as they get bigger, the smaller spikes they has'm
|
Spugg Galdon
Nisroc Angels FETID
748
|
Posted - 2015.08.22 19:25:37 -
[49] - Quote
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:FT Diomedes wrote:That is intentional. The fact that you cannot understand this really is beyond me. Are you saying that the resist rigs are intended to be less powerful and therefore a less popular choice than the buffer rigs? Perhaps likewise it is intentional that the resist modules are more powerful and therefore more popular than the percentage buffer modules? I don't see any reason for that to be the case but I've also never heard any indication that it is intended to be this way. It is this way, and I don't think it's supposed to be. This whole post is an attempt to convince people that it is that way, and I merely assume they will disagree with it if they realize as much. But so far, all of the flak I'm getting seems to come from folks who perceive the resist rigs to be just as useful if not more useful than the buffer rigs.
The resist rigs are useful. In my opinion, humble as it may be, the resist rigs are balanced and working properly. If the buffer rigs were changed to have proper stacking penalties or be changed from % based to an amount base then I beleive that the tanking rigs would all be reasonably balanced. Perhaps some calibration cost adjustments but that's it. |
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
2585
|
Posted - 2015.08.22 19:35:39 -
[50] - Quote
I'll go for either one. I just feel that resist rigs are too weak compared to buffer rigs. I'm sure the logs agree with me on this one--players don't really use resist rigs very much.
Pirate ship Nightmare, can you fathom
Larger but with smaller spikes than Phantasm
The Succubus looks meaner
But the Revenant cleaner
Seems as they get bigger, the smaller spikes they has'm
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