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Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
275
|
Posted - 2016.01.15 14:57:16 -
[3781] - Quote
Commander Spurty wrote:Wow this thread rages on?
Next time someone complains their rant thread was shut down, I shall direct them here.
This one is special apparently
This thread is probably left open for people to blow off steam, they seem to leave one thread open for that purpose. It'll close eventually, then there will be another to take its place. |
Nana Skalski
Poseidaon
2752
|
Posted - 2016.01.15 15:24:17 -
[3782] - Quote
The title is misleading.
( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ GòáGò¼GòªGò¼Gòú - my sandcastle
( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ <=X - my yacht
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Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
275
|
Posted - 2016.01.15 15:34:54 -
[3783] - Quote
Nana Skalski wrote:The title is misleading.
That maybe, but nobody is going to read 189 pages or even close to that.
But everyone will read the title. |
Remiel Pollard
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
7390
|
Posted - 2016.01.15 15:55:01 -
[3784] - Quote
Avvy wrote:Nana Skalski wrote:The title is misleading. That maybe, but nobody is going to read 189 pages or even close to that. But everyone will read the title.
Well I've been keeping up with it from the start, so, I'm one of those pathetic whelps that have read all 189 pages
GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'.
Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥
- Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
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Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
275
|
Posted - 2016.01.15 15:58:58 -
[3785] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:Avvy wrote:Nana Skalski wrote:The title is misleading. That maybe, but nobody is going to read 189 pages or even close to that. But everyone will read the title. Well I've been keeping up with it from the start, so, I'm one of those pathetic whelps that have read all 189 pages
Yeah well, it's different if you've been reading from when this thread started. Although you are doing well if you've read all the posts.
But I'm really talking about potential new players that visit the website to see what it's about.
Edit:
As the old saying goes, 'no smoke without fire'.
With that saying in mind what are they to think. |
Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
7065
|
Posted - 2016.01.15 16:15:42 -
[3786] - Quote
Avvy wrote:Although, I don't think it's that wise to leave a thread with the kind of title that this thread has.
MMO players don't tend to head for games with dropping numbers, as they can be concerned that the time they invest into an MMO could be wasted. The problem isn't the thread title in that case though, it's the actual player numbers. While it may be stable for the moment it clearly has just been through one hell of a drop. Rather than trying to pretend that everything is fine and dandy, perhaps that should be addressed.
Avvy wrote:As the old saying goes, 'no smoke without fire'.
With that saying in mind what are they to think. I imagine they will think that there was indeed a fire, and they would be correct to think so.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
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Avvy
Republic University Minmatar Republic
276
|
Posted - 2016.01.15 16:29:43 -
[3787] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Avvy wrote:Although, I don't think it's that wise to leave a thread with the kind of title that this thread has.
MMO players don't tend to head for games with dropping numbers, as they can be concerned that the time they invest into an MMO could be wasted. The problem isn't the thread title in that case though, it's the actual player numbers. While it may be stable for the moment it clearly has just been through one hell of a drop. Rather than trying to pretend that everything is fine and dandy, perhaps that should be addressed. Avvy wrote:As the old saying goes, 'no smoke without fire'.
With that saying in mind what are they to think. I imagine they will think that there was indeed a fire, and they would be correct to think so.
The title is an issue though, even if it was true.
A lot would already know the game is old that coupled with declining numbers, it sounds like the game is in its twilight years. Why would anyone want to start investing a lot of their time into an MMO if they think it's entered its twilight years?
The title true or not will not help the situation.
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Remiel Pollard
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
7390
|
Posted - 2016.01.15 16:34:04 -
[3788] - Quote
What a few people I won't name still refuse to consider, concerning that drop, is how much of it was alts, amongst other variables they seem to be trying very hard to ignore.
New players are coming in every day. I know because I meet them every day. Always someone new. Whether or not they stick around is up to them, but I've never heard of someone quitting a game over a melodramitic forum post. EVE's far from its 'twilight', but even if it wasn't, it'd still be a pretty damn healthy twilight.
GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'.
Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥
- Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
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Nana Skalski
Poseidaon
2760
|
Posted - 2016.01.15 16:38:15 -
[3789] - Quote
Remarkable, how this "EVE is dying/" meme and threads based on this message are influencing posters, maybe its this threatening suggestion in a message.
Yep, must be it.
Premium quality trolling.
( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ GòáGò¼GòªGò¼Gòú - my sandcastle
( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ <=X - my yacht
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
5696
|
Posted - 2016.01.15 16:51:46 -
[3790] - Quote
sero Hita wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: And, if Valkyrie would be "connected" to EvE, one could have the option to use a ship in the traditional way or the new one.
This is what i pointed out in the part you ignored (you really read things quite selectively), that I don't think will happen. Mostly due to what Hildmar wrote, but also because the two ways of flying are not compatible. I mean you could probably get like in Dust, that what you do in valkyrie affect how much VP is needed for a system flip in FW, but flying like Valkyrie in EVE would be a hassle, and unwanted by many. I don't even know if you can balance it, so that people flying in one way won't get an advantage. Plus could the servers handle 200 man fighthing Valkyrie style in one system, along side 200 players who does not? And how sexy will the valkyrie style fight be in TIDI? You wishes seem pretty unrealistic right now. Which is why your " my way or doom" semantics are annoying.
- A company CEO might not fully disclose every strategical and content of their upcoming products to public including competition.
- It could be an "hybrid", more connected with EvE than Dust, consider Dust also had licensing issues that made it impossible to truly connect to EvE even if they wanted.
- Where did I exactly say "my way or doom"? I suggested a number of ways to "reliven" EvE and make it more palatable to the available potential subscribers we got today. Had it been just for me, I'd be OK to keep EvE like it is right now, even if I can't say I have been satisfied by EvE's flight sim or combat.
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel
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DaReaper
Net 7
2735
|
Posted - 2016.01.15 17:01:45 -
[3791] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Avvy wrote:Although, I don't think it's that wise to leave a thread with the kind of title that this thread has.
MMO players don't tend to head for games with dropping numbers, as they can be concerned that the time they invest into an MMO could be wasted. The problem isn't the thread title in that case though, it's the actual player numbers. While it may be stable for the moment it clearly has just been through one hell of a drop. Rather than trying to pretend that everything is fine and dandy, perhaps that should be addressed. Avvy wrote:As the old saying goes, 'no smoke without fire'.
With that saying in mind what are they to think. I imagine they will think that there was indeed a fire, and they would be correct to think so.
We are in whats is called a rebuild phase. this is normal and no needs for doom and gloom. once the rebuild phase is finished (prolly the end of 2016 maybe middle of 2017) the numbers should rebound. if they don;t then eve is in trouble. I'm not worring till the end of this year
OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!
Yes i am optimistic about eve.. i'm giving it till dec 31st 2016 before i doom n gloom
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King Aires
Chicks on Speed Mordus Angels
88
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Posted - 2016.01.15 17:03:10 -
[3792] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:What a few people I won't name still refuse to consider, concerning that drop, is how much of it was alts, amongst other variables they seem to be trying very hard to ignore.
New players are coming in every day. I know because I meet them every day. Always someone new. Whether or not they stick around is up to them, but I've never heard of someone quitting a game over a melodramitic forum post. EVE's far from its 'twilight', but even if it wasn't, it'd still be a pretty damn healthy twilight.
Too bad CCP has already stated the number of accounts per unique email/ip/credit card or other identifier has increased.
So alts havent dropped, according to CCP. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
5696
|
Posted - 2016.01.15 17:12:28 -
[3793] - Quote
Avvy wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:King Aires wrote:The only entitled way of thinking here is yours, in that you think it is your game and it should be played your way. You refuse to adapt or change therefore you ask others to leave so they can't influence development in a direction you don't improve. This is incredibly true. There are a number of frequent posters that display this "my way or the highway" attitude while having absolutely nothing to do with the development of the game. They get so mad that other people dare to have opinions. Just stand your ground and they usually get bored. That's kind of normal really. If someone likes something enough, they will have a tendency to try to protect it as it is. Plus seeing what changes have done to some other MMOs, it just reinforces that reasoning.
... and then there are someone else who loves something enough, to accept to give up something to help that game keep going on well.
Being totally conservative is a great way to keep a core of very committed players, who however dwindle a bit every year (normal turnover) without being replenished with fresher players.
So, you have the hard choice to whether love something in a possessive way until it withers and slowly fades away or to love something (or someone!) in a generous way and let it evolve over time, even if not everything goes your way.
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel
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Nana Skalski
Poseidaon
2773
|
Posted - 2016.01.15 17:13:27 -
[3794] - Quote
King Aires wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:What a few people I won't name still refuse to consider, concerning that drop, is how much of it was alts, amongst other variables they seem to be trying very hard to ignore.
New players are coming in every day. I know because I meet them every day. Always someone new. Whether or not they stick around is up to them, but I've never heard of someone quitting a game over a melodramitic forum post. EVE's far from its 'twilight', but even if it wasn't, it'd still be a pretty damn healthy twilight. Too bad CCP has already stated the number of accounts per unique email/ip/credit card or other identifier has increased. So alts havent dropped, according to CCP. Source?
( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ GòáGò¼GòªGò¼Gòú - my sandcastle
( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ <=X - my yacht
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
5696
|
Posted - 2016.01.15 17:25:32 -
[3795] - Quote
Avvy wrote:
A lot would already know the game is old that coupled with declining numbers, it sounds like the game is in its twilight years. Why would anyone want to start investing a lot of their time into an MMO if they think it's entered its twilight years?
The title true or not will not help the situation.
EvE did not go into it's twilight years because of age, but because it's trying to cater to :stupid:.
When you go so far to rename ammo name because people can't bother thinking that "Inferno" might have something to do with fire damage, then you are seriously going to water down your product.
Also, $1000 blue jeans, for who still recalls that stuff.
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel
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Nana Skalski
Poseidaon
2773
|
Posted - 2016.01.15 17:34:12 -
[3796] - Quote
What twilight years? EVE looks fresher than any mmorpg from 2003. New features are added constantly, and they even make it opt-in. You have a really hardcore, alive and kicking game here.
( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ GòáGò¼GòªGò¼Gòú - my sandcastle
( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ <=X - my yacht
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King Aires
Chicks on Speed Mordus Angels
90
|
Posted - 2016.01.15 17:40:15 -
[3797] - Quote
Nana Skalski wrote:King Aires wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:What a few people I won't name still refuse to consider, concerning that drop, is how much of it was alts, amongst other variables they seem to be trying very hard to ignore.
New players are coming in every day. I know because I meet them every day. Always someone new. Whether or not they stick around is up to them, but I've never heard of someone quitting a game over a melodramitic forum post. EVE's far from its 'twilight', but even if it wasn't, it'd still be a pretty damn healthy twilight. Too bad CCP has already stated the number of accounts per unique email/ip/credit card or other identifier has increased. So alts havent dropped, according to CCP. Source? Anyway, numbers are not falling. And I dont see why I would have to make more accounts to protect anything. EVE had for like 3000 players when it started, and look how it is doing right now.
Because you are too lazy to research for yourself.
http://i.imgur.com/hHxSS0B.png
Doesn't look like alts vanished from the game now does it? |
Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
7067
|
Posted - 2016.01.15 17:45:19 -
[3798] - Quote
Avvy wrote:The title is an issue though, even if it was true.
A lot would already know the game is old that coupled with declining numbers, it sounds like the game is in its twilight years. Why would anyone want to start investing a lot of their time into an MMO if they think it's entered its twilight years?
The title true or not will not help the situation. Honestly, what it sounds like you are saying is that the title is giving the correct impression of the game but instead it should give a false impression so people join in thinking there's no problems. The issue with that is that then they realise there are problems and they feel even more narked off that they've wasted their time.
Remiel Pollard wrote:What a few people I won't name still refuse to consider, concerning that drop, is how much of it was alts, amongst other variables they seem to be trying very hard to ignore. It's not that it's being ignored, It's simply being discounted as "the reason". You want to pretend that there's all of these other explanations (like the "it's summer" that seemed to run on way past summer) when it's pretty simple. Alts or not, people are losing interest in the game and new players aren't sticking around to replace the lost players.
DaReaper wrote:We are in whats is called a rebuild phase. this is normal and no needs for doom and gloom. once the rebuild phase is finished (prolly the end of 2016 maybe middle of 2017) the numbers should rebound. if they don;t then eve is in trouble. I'm not worring till the end of this year Honestly, I think we're in a "shift to maintenance only" phase. I fully expect CCP to run with Valkyrie as a main product if it gathers enough momentum and focus more on VR moving forward. EVE-O has no place for VR and a very small and shrinking playerbase. I can't see them wanting to keep pushing forward with dev time that would give them better value elsewhere.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
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King Aires
Chicks on Speed Mordus Angels
90
|
Posted - 2016.01.15 18:00:34 -
[3799] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Avvy wrote:The title is an issue though, even if it was true.
A lot would already know the game is old that coupled with declining numbers, it sounds like the game is in its twilight years. Why would anyone want to start investing a lot of their time into an MMO if they think it's entered its twilight years?
The title true or not will not help the situation. Honestly, what it sounds like you are saying is that the title is giving the correct impression of the game but instead it should give a false impression so people join in thinking there's no problems. The issue with that is that then they realise there are problems and they feel even more narked off that they've wasted their time. Remiel Pollard wrote:What a few people I won't name still refuse to consider, concerning that drop, is how much of it was alts, amongst other variables they seem to be trying very hard to ignore. It's not that it's being ignored, It's simply being discounted as "the reason". You want to pretend that there's all of these other explanations (like the "it's summer" that seemed to run on way past summer) when it's pretty simple. Alts or not, people are losing interest in the game and new players aren't sticking around to replace the lost players. DaReaper wrote:We are in whats is called a rebuild phase. this is normal and no needs for doom and gloom. once the rebuild phase is finished (prolly the end of 2016 maybe middle of 2017) the numbers should rebound. if they don;t then eve is in trouble. I'm not worring till the end of this year Honestly, I think we're in a "shift to maintenance only" phase. I fully expect CCP to run with Valkyrie as a main product if it gathers enough momentum and focus more on VR moving forward. EVE-O has no place for VR and a very small and shrinking playerbase. I can't see them wanting to keep pushing forward with dev time that would give them better value elsewhere.
I agree with most of this, but I don't think we are in full legacy or maintenance mode yet. I think CCP is going to try and get away with putting as little cash as possible into Eve and ride it until Valkyrie pays off.
Just looking at the newer hardware they are moving to in a few weeks, that is obviously more powerful per dollar spent, but far less costly than previous hardware, and the shift in advertising to Valk almost exclusive. Sad times ahead if you aren't buying a VR set to play their new game. |
Nana Skalski
Poseidaon
2785
|
Posted - 2016.01.15 18:19:03 -
[3800] - Quote
King Aires wrote:Nana Skalski wrote:King Aires wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:What a few people I won't name still refuse to consider, concerning that drop, is how much of it was alts, amongst other variables they seem to be trying very hard to ignore.
New players are coming in every day. I know because I meet them every day. Always someone new. Whether or not they stick around is up to them, but I've never heard of someone quitting a game over a melodramitic forum post. EVE's far from its 'twilight', but even if it wasn't, it'd still be a pretty damn healthy twilight. Too bad CCP has already stated the number of accounts per unique email/ip/credit card or other identifier has increased. So alts havent dropped, according to CCP. Source? Anyway, numbers are not falling. And I dont see why I would have to make more accounts to protect anything. EVE had for like 3000 players when it started, and look how it is doing right now. Because you are too lazy to research for yourself. http://i.imgur.com/hHxSS0B.png Doesn't look like alts vanished from the game now does it? LOL, Its a very flat line, I dont see where it rises so much from 2014, and it even plunges a little there in beginning of 2015.
Also its accounts per player, so the pure alts curve would be even more prominent.
( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ GòáGò¼GòªGò¼Gòú - my sandcastle
( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ <=X - my yacht
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King Aires
Chicks on Speed Mordus Angels
90
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Posted - 2016.01.15 18:45:30 -
[3801] - Quote
Nana Skalski wrote:King Aires wrote:Nana Skalski wrote:King Aires wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:What a few people I won't name still refuse to consider, concerning that drop, is how much of it was alts, amongst other variables they seem to be trying very hard to ignore.
New players are coming in every day. I know because I meet them every day. Always someone new. Whether or not they stick around is up to them, but I've never heard of someone quitting a game over a melodramitic forum post. EVE's far from its 'twilight', but even if it wasn't, it'd still be a pretty damn healthy twilight. Too bad CCP has already stated the number of accounts per unique email/ip/credit card or other identifier has increased. So alts havent dropped, according to CCP. Source? Anyway, numbers are not falling. And I dont see why I would have to make more accounts to protect anything. EVE had for like 3000 players when it started, and look how it is doing right now. Because you are too lazy to research for yourself. http://i.imgur.com/hHxSS0B.png Doesn't look like alts vanished from the game now does it? LOL, Its a very flat line, I dont see where it rises so much from 2014, and it even plunges a little there in beginning of 2015. Also its accounts per player, so the pure alts curve would be more prominent.
Everything you just said was not only wrong, but contradictory to itself. Plunge?! lol ok
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Nana Skalski
Poseidaon
2786
|
Posted - 2016.01.15 18:58:38 -
[3802] - Quote
Look at the beginning of 2015. There is a little rebounce in the middle of 2015 but not surpassing the former number right before 2015. So where is this increase in alts? We are taking about the timespan from beginning of 2015, ok a little before it. It was when they changed rules about input automation. And where is the pure additional accounts number?
As I said. we are past the evenements, those people probably left EVE and buy spaceships for 100$ now in SC and doing as alpha testers for free there, for an overhyped game.
( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ GòáGò¼GòªGò¼Gòú - my sandcastle
( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ <=X - my yacht
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King Aires
Chicks on Speed Mordus Angels
90
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Posted - 2016.01.15 19:05:05 -
[3803] - Quote
Nana Skalski wrote:Look at the beginning of 2015. There is a little rebounce in the middle of 2015 but not surpassing the former number. So where is this increase in alts? We are taking about the timespan from beginning of 2015. And where is the pure additional accounts number? As I said. we are past the evenements, those people probably left EVE and buy spaceships for 100$ now in SC and doing as alpha testers for free there, for an overhyped game.
I didnt say it increased in 2015. I said over time it has.
You are the one making the claim that alts left the game and that is the reason for the player drop. Which is obviously untrue. |
Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
13348
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Posted - 2016.01.15 19:05:52 -
[3804] - Quote
https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/3j7nso/at_least_we_know_how_many_alts_there_are/cun2q2o
Funny, "King Aires" posts a graph that he thinks supports his beliefs but that actually torpedoes those beliefs. "Pretty Stable" are the key words there, and lets ignore the noticeable dip at the end right there.
Reminds me of a time when someone did that same thing (post something that hurts their own argument) about Incursions... |
King Aires
Chicks on Speed Mordus Angels
90
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Posted - 2016.01.15 19:07:19 -
[3805] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/3j7nso/at_least_we_know_how_many_alts_there_are/cun2q2o Funny, "King Aires" posts a graph that he thinks supports his beliefs but that actually torpedoes those beliefs. "Pretty Stable" are the key words there, and lets ignore the noticeable dip at the end right there. Reminds me of a time when someone did that same thing (post something that hurts their own argument) about Incursions...
Or you can't freaking read
You see, I said its been stable. That other guy said alts have all left the game.
Thanks for helping prove me right, even when you didn't mean to. |
Nana Skalski
Poseidaon
2786
|
Posted - 2016.01.15 19:10:52 -
[3806] - Quote
King Aires wrote:Nana Skalski wrote:Look at the beginning of 2015. There is a little rebounce in the middle of 2015 but not surpassing the former number. So where is this increase in alts? We are taking about the timespan from beginning of 2015. And where is the pure additional accounts number? As I said. we are past the evenements, those people probably left EVE and buy spaceships for 100$ now in SC and doing as alpha testers for free there, for an overhyped game. I didnt say it increased in 2015. I said over time it has. You are the one making the claim that alts left the game and that is the reason for the player drop. Which is obviously untrue. When I made that statement I was writing about that timespan right before 2015. They did left, as you can see, but you dont know the additional alt account numbers same as I. From this curve it looks like we did not recovered fully from right before the 2015 plunge.
( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ GòáGò¼GòªGò¼Gòú - my sandcastle
( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ <=X - my yacht
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Jenn aSide
Ascendent. Test Alliance Please Ignore
13348
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Posted - 2016.01.15 19:12:22 -
[3807] - Quote
King Aires wrote:
Or you can't freaking read
You see, I said its been stable. That other guy said alts have all left the game.
Thanks for helping prove me right, even when you didn't mean to.
lol
King Aires wrote:Too bad CCP has already stated the number of accounts per unique email/ip/credit card or other identifier has increased. |
Nana Skalski
Poseidaon
2786
|
Posted - 2016.01.15 19:17:04 -
[3808] - Quote
King Aires wrote: Or you can't freaking read
You see, I said its been stable. That other guy said alts have all left the game.
Thanks for helping prove me right, even when you didn't mean to.
Nana Skalski wrote:There is less alts online, and people unubscribed some because PLEX is for 1 B.
I think situation is far from being bad.
I think its you that "cant freaking read". My fault lies only in that, that I didnt provide the actual timespan I had on my mind. You were thinking about something else.
( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ GòáGò¼GòªGò¼Gòú - my sandcastle
( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ <=X - my yacht
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King Aires
Chicks on Speed Mordus Angels
90
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Posted - 2016.01.15 19:18:44 -
[3809] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:King Aires wrote:
Or you can't freaking read
You see, I said its been stable. That other guy said alts have all left the game.
Thanks for helping prove me right, even when you didn't mean to.
lol King Aires wrote:Too bad CCP has already stated the number of accounts per unique email/ip/credit card or other identifier has increased.
And it has increased, since 2006. You wanna talk about a little dip from 1.65 to 1.5 over the last couple months of that graph good for you.
But you are still making my point. Last time I checked 1.5 is more than 1.35 right? Thought so big guy |
Nana Skalski
Poseidaon
2787
|
Posted - 2016.01.15 19:27:29 -
[3810] - Quote
King Aires wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:King Aires wrote:
Or you can't freaking read
You see, I said its been stable. That other guy said alts have all left the game.
Thanks for helping prove me right, even when you didn't mean to.
lol King Aires wrote:Too bad CCP has already stated the number of accounts per unique email/ip/credit card or other identifier has increased. And it has increased, since 2006. You wanna talk about a little dip from 1.65 to 1.5 over the last couple months of that graph good for you. But you are still making my point. Last time I checked 1.5 is more than 1.35 right? Thought so big guy
You are making your own point now. We are talking about slightly different things.
( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ GòáGò¼GòªGò¼Gòú - my sandcastle
( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ <=X - my yacht
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