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Ayallah
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
407
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Posted - 2015.09.02 14:32:20 -
[31] - Quote
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:Little kin is correct. Do relax, people. There's a difference between ethnic Minmatar and Matari of the Tribes. It takes more than blood to be Matari.
I am not surprised that someone who would kill people they had just rescued from slavery for their religious beliefs does not understand what it is to be Matari.
-áFear The Tribes
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Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
2362
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Posted - 2015.09.02 14:40:30 -
[32] - Quote
Ayallah wrote:It was the Ammatar who first heralded themselves as the Nefantar Tribe reborn and not just those who chose to return to the Republic but also those who choose to stay. Deny and try to insist things are black and white and mutually exclusive all you want, it is not changing the truth of who they are.
Once again, any Ammatar who identifies as Nefantar is as foolish as a True Amarr identifying as Udorian. Why would you label yourself with an insult?
Quote:I am a Kameira but I am also a Brutor. I have undergone no Voluval.
You are not Kameira, because Kameira serve Amarr and God. You are not Brutor, because you have not gone through the trials and been acknowledged as a member of a clan of that tribe with a naming mark.
You cling to these because you feel lost, yet you are neither because you have shown no loyalty to either of their ideals or practices.
Quote:Even you fall within the Sebiestor Tribe.
I stopped being a member of the Sebiestor Tribe when I removed my mark.
Yonis Ardishapur for Emperor
"Reclaim our Empire"
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Mizhara Del'thul
T.R.I.A.D Ushra'Khan
455
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Posted - 2015.09.02 14:42:16 -
[33] - Quote
Ayallah wrote:Mizhara Del'thul wrote:Little kin is correct. Do relax, people. There's a difference between ethnic Minmatar and Matari of the Tribes. It takes more than blood to be Matari. I am not surprised that someone who would kill people they had just rescued from slavery for their religious beliefs does not understand what it is to be Matari.
I am not surprised you open your mouth on subjects you are this ignorant on, as usual. |
Arrendis
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1386
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Posted - 2015.09.02 14:42:25 -
[34] - Quote
Ayallah wrote:Mizhara Del'thul wrote:Little kin is correct. Do relax, people. There's a difference between ethnic Minmatar and Matari of the Tribes. It takes more than blood to be Matari. I am not surprised that someone who would kill people they had just rescued from slavery for their religious beliefs does not understand what it is to be Matari.
Ayallah wrote:Why is it you look at a Tribe and insist it is a single accepted culture like some Caldari Megacorp? A Tribe is many many cultures and many many people's.
You can't argue that being Matari includes differences of opinion and cultural variety and then pull a 'no true Tribesman' line. It just doesn't work. If there's enough room in the Sebiestor to include Samira, then there's enough room for it to include Mizhara's viewpoint as well.
Oh, and by the way, thank you for your help on this one. I'm glad you feel yourself enough of an authority on our Tribe to dictate to us how it works. Never would've gotten that on our own. |
Ayallah
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
407
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Posted - 2015.09.02 14:49:25 -
[35] - Quote
Arrendis wrote:You can't argue that being Matari includes differences of opinion and cultural variety and then pull a 'no true Tribesman' line. It just doesn't work.
Oh, and by the way, thank you for your help on this one. I'm glad you feel yourself enough of an authority on our Tribe to dictate to us how it works. Never would've gotten that on our own.
Please point to me anywhere I said or implied anything remotely close to any of that.
I am sure all of you can agree the documents issued by a hospital determine who your parents are.
-áFear The Tribes
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Neph
Operation Meatshield Plexodus
83
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Posted - 2015.09.02 14:51:37 -
[36] - Quote
I am Sebiestor of the Kitggatae clan. I was born into it, and I will always identify as it.
To be Matari means two things: you call yourself Matari, and other Matari cal you Matari. The trials and the Voluval are merely a formalized way to acknowledge your acceptance. As for the Ammatar, they're a split case. I would never call them Matari, others would. They call themselves "Matari", but it means something different than it ever has before. |
Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
2363
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Posted - 2015.09.02 14:59:44 -
[37] - Quote
Ayallah wrote:I am sure all of you can agree the documents issued by a hospital determine who your parents are.
Ethnicity is not culture. It is not nation. It is not one's path in life.
The fact that you consider yourself kameira solely because your parents were kameira, rather than by actually being loyal to the traditions and practices of the kameira, shows why it was so easy for you to betray them.
It also shows why it's so easy for you to claim to be Brutor while you avoid doing any of the things one must do to become Brutor.
Yonis Ardishapur for Emperor
"Reclaim our Empire"
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Ayallah
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
407
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Posted - 2015.09.02 15:17:09 -
[38] - Quote
I am a Kameira because I was bred to be one, was trained as one and I am one. I have no idea if my parents were and it would not change my outlook to find out they were farmers, merchants or slaves. Their lives are not important to who I am.You say I betrayed customs and practices and more to the point you say anything was ever easy. Your attack is too far off the mark to work here Samira. I have not betrayed myself and I have not betrayed God.
Now find me a Brutor who will contest me when I name my Tribe. I will prove to them and you just who I am.
-áFear The Tribes
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Nameira Vanis-Tor
Angry Mustellid The Periphery
278
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Posted - 2015.09.02 15:19:42 -
[39] - Quote
Apologies Svetlana...topic absolutely derailed! |
Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
2363
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Posted - 2015.09.02 15:21:41 -
[40] - Quote
Ayallah wrote:I have not betrayed myself and I have not betrayed God.
You embrace an infidel culture and serve foreign interests. You're an apostate that just refuses to admit it.
Yonis Ardishapur for Emperor
"Reclaim our Empire"
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Cain Aloga
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc The 11th Hour Alliance
136
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Posted - 2015.09.02 15:59:47 -
[41] - Quote
Skyweir Kinnison wrote:I have no doubt that the Minmatar are proud, and I know how industrious they can be. I'm also quote willing to believe they can take care of themselves - up to a point.
So do it. I'm not being elitist, I'm simply proposing that this arm's length friendship be put on a properly contractual basis. If you need money, borrow it with a clear contract that ensures you can't spend it all on quixotic invasions without penalty, and pay interest on the loans like civilised nations.
Personally, I'd rather be spending the money we pour into the dysfunctional Republic on our own Minmatar citizens, who certainly do work hard and contribute to the Federation in so many wonderful ways. Too many, however, do not yet enjoy the standard of living they deserve. It's time we looked to our own.
Frankly, reducing the dependance of the Minmatar Republic on outside aid is the best path for both our nations. One has to wonder then, why the faces of your tribal representatives drain of blood each time someone raises the possibility with them?
And I'd be very keen to develop stronger and more pragmatic relations with Amarr. Funnily enough, that's another policy that causes excessive twitching from the Republic.
Mr. Kinnison, I too believe that reducing dependance on foreigners would be best, however your suggestion of replacing aide with loans is of little help. The best course of action is for us, as Matari, to reduce the need for aide ourselves. We need to improve our economy, and in turn improve the Republic's infrastructure. That is the only true path to prosperity. |
Ayallah
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
407
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Posted - 2015.09.02 16:54:14 -
[42] - Quote
Samira Kernher wrote:You embrace an infidel culture and serve foreign interests. You're an apostate that just refuses to admit it.
You did not mention how I had betrayed myself or God Samira.
-áFear The Tribes
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Skyweir Kinnison
63
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Posted - 2015.09.02 17:24:53 -
[43] - Quote
Cain Aloga wrote: Mr. Kinnison, I too believe that reducing dependance on foreigners would be best, however your suggestion of replacing aide with loans is of little help. The best course of action is for us, as Matari, to reduce the need for aide ourselves. We need to improve our economy, and in turn improve the Republic's infrastructure. That is the only true path to prosperity.
I agree.
I was exaggerating somewhat in response to those of your compatriots that were romanticising a relationship with the Caldari whilst sneering at the Federation. As if the State would not ensure that relationship was extremely profitable to them and that a group of mega-corporations who despise weakness would not ensure that the current plight of the Republic was exploited to great advantage.
The purpose of our aid is of course to enable the Republic to stabilise and develop its own institutions and become a responsible partner within the cluster. Of course we have self-interest in this, but it also costs us in other ways, i.e. in purely pragmatic terms. A trade-off that the State would be unlikely to consider.
Humanity has won its battle. Liberty now has a country.
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Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Multicultural F1 Brigade
5541
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Posted - 2015.09.02 17:45:22 -
[44] - Quote
Nameira Vanis-Tor wrote: The strength of the Minmatar lies in their unity. Observers look to the Minmatar Republic and proclaim the Minmatar Tribes weak. Instead they should look to the Tribes and feel trepidation, for if each Matari were to heed the call of their Tribal Chief and all the Chiefs were to speak as one on an issue then they would be unstoppable.
The stars glitter with the wrecks of those who entered Caldari space believing themselves to be unstoppable. That being said, I understand you were speaking more of a reaction to a push from outside, rather than threatening to push someone else yourselves. People can be incredibly tenacious when fighting to defend their homes - and we already have all the space and resources we need.
No. We would never GIVE you money in expectation of a favour to be named later. We would also never give you aid, calling it that, and then come back with a demand that you honour the implied debt in that gift. Friendship and a sack is worth the price of the sack, in my opinion, since very few people ever sacrifice their own families to honour a debt of friendship!
Our alliance with the Empire is a very good example of this. We stand ready to help defend their space should the Federation or Republic attack. We received loans that we are in the process of paying back. We do not leap to defend their honour every time that it is questioned. We do not feel that our alliance gives us a stake in their leadership contest.
"Caldari Prime burns, those left behind are choking on the dust and ash that fills the air, and you demand our surrender? Is this a joke? You have only hardened our resolve. Every drop of blood you have taken from us will be repaid -- with interest."
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Cain Aloga
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc The 11th Hour Alliance
137
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Posted - 2015.09.02 18:29:48 -
[45] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
No. We would never GIVE you money in expectation of a favour to be named later. We would also never give you aid, calling it that, and then come back with a demand that you honour the implied debt in that gift. Friendship and a sack is worth the price of the sack, in my opinion, since very few people ever sacrifice their own families to honour a debt of friendship!
Our alliance with the Empire is a very good example of this. We stand ready to help defend their space should the Federation or Republic attack. We received loans that we are in the process of paying back. We do not leap to defend their honour every time that it is questioned. We do not feel that our alliance gives us a stake in their leadership contest.
It is my hope that any friendship between the State and the Republic be born out of equal partnership and respect, and the best way to achieve this friendship, I think, is through trade and business. |
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
1402
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Posted - 2015.09.02 18:52:53 -
[46] - Quote
Neph wrote:I am Sebiestor of the Kitggatae clan. I was born into it, and I will always identify as it.
To be Matari means two things: you call yourself Matari, and other Matari cal you Matari. The trials and the Voluval are merely a formalized way to acknowledge your acceptance. As for the Ammatar, they're a split case. I would never call them Matari, others would. They call themselves "Matari", but it means something different than it ever has before.
If I may do a minor (but important) nitpicking, the Ammatar sometimes refer to themselves as Sanmatari. This is entirely different from Matari.
Matari and Nefantar in ancestry, yes, but nothing else. |
Svetlana Laknaya
Khushakor Clan Matari Safari
60
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Posted - 2015.09.03 00:39:26 -
[47] - Quote
It warms my heart to see the discourse here, passions may flare, but that is only because being Minmatar is close to our hearts.
The official position of Khushakor clan is that first and foremost all Minmatar are our people, but we focus beyond anything in helping our people who are citizens of the Republic and in good standing with the tribes. This doesn't mean we don't see that enslaved Vherokior, mumbling prayers to the Amarrian God in a mining colony on Ordion II as important, merely from a pragmatic standpoint, those within our tribal structure have the most to offer to the rest of us. Eventually, we would like all of our people to be free, and once freed of certain dangerous influences and properly informed, able to make choices on if they want to support their tribe properly or leave to whatever ends they seek.
What we don't want to do, is get involved in a situation, where we see our brothers and sisters in chains, and worry more about freeing them than ensuring the strength of our future generations. This means we need to fight for our, but we also need to be pragmatic and know what is best for us going forward, the Republic and the Empire will both be around for a long time, so we need to take the long view on this. |
Cain Aloga
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc The 11th Hour Alliance
138
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Posted - 2015.09.03 11:54:07 -
[48] - Quote
Svetlana Laknaya wrote:
What we don't want to do, is get involved in a situation, where we see our brothers and sisters in chains, and worry more about freeing them than ensuring the strength of our future generations. This means we need to fight for our own, but we also need to be pragmatic and know what is best for us going forward, the Republic and the Empire will both be around for a long time, so we need to take the long view on this.
This is very well said. While liberating our kin is our ultimate goal, we have be able to recieve them, as well. It does us little good to liberate them in, only to leave them hanging with out any support. After the Elder Fleet Rescued so many of our brethren, Republic and tribal infrastructure was pushed to its maximum and beyond. We were Ill equipped to handle such an influx. While our warriors fight for our people's freedom, we in turn should fight for our people's prosperity. |
Sahriah BloodStone
No.Mercy Triumvirate.
184
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Posted - 2015.09.04 00:13:49 -
[49] - Quote
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:I wouldn't be looking for friends in the State. I'd be looking for allies or simple business partners, made on a basis of honest trade and enlightened self-interest. False smiles and pretenses are not particularly useful nor desirable traits in an ally or business partner.
I can trust someone who are straightforwards in saying they're in it for themselves. I can't trust someone who pretends they're being selfless.
I recommend listening to your kin Svetlana.
At the current time, the Amarr offer the Caldari a much more formidable ally in both military strength and economic power. To make peace with the republic would likely cost them this mutually profitable arrangement for a weaker and less stable ally. If you want their help, you'll need to offer something the Amarr cannot.
Putting that aside, your conviction is admirable. I look forward to seeing how it plays out.
Sahriah Bloodstone
Praetor, Takmahl Dynamics
"Never underestimate your enemy or disrespect its abilities. If you do, you shall become the hunted "
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Markus Error
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
74
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Posted - 2015.09.04 02:59:18 -
[50] - Quote
I do feel inclined to point out that aiming for an alliance with the Caldari is unrealistic. Aiming for peace is not; if the Caldari do not have to lose resources and time fighting the Amarr's enemies, it works in their favour. Thus, it seems likely they would be fairly agreeable.
Hey.
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Skyweir Kinnison
64
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Posted - 2015.09.04 07:49:04 -
[51] - Quote
Markus Error wrote:I do feel inclined to point out that aiming for an alliance with the Caldari is unrealistic. Aiming for peace is not; if the Caldari do not have to lose resources and time fighting the Amarr's enemies, it works in their favour. Thus, it seems likely they would be fairly agreeable.
I would hazard a guess that the State and its corporations make a decent margin on their alliance with Amarr.
Humanity has won its battle. Liberty now has a country.
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Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Multicultural F1 Brigade
5545
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Posted - 2015.09.04 12:55:56 -
[52] - Quote
Skyweir Kinnison wrote:Markus Error wrote:I do feel inclined to point out that aiming for an alliance with the Caldari is unrealistic. Aiming for peace is not; if the Caldari do not have to lose resources and time fighting the Amarr's enemies, it works in their favour. Thus, it seems likely they would be fairly agreeable. I would hazard a guess that the State and its corporations make a decent margin on their alliance with Amarr. Yes, of course. But the fact remains that an encumbering alliance is virtually intolerable by its very nature. In any case it is nonsense to speak of The State for any reason other than as a handy inclusive term that covers ALL Caldari. What you want is to find an amenable Corporation that wants access to those expanding markets you were speaking of.
"Caldari Prime burns, those left behind are choking on the dust and ash that fills the air, and you demand our surrender? Is this a joke? You have only hardened our resolve. Every drop of blood you have taken from us will be repaid -- with interest."
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Charlinda Akheteru
Akheteru Integrated Astrometrics
13
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Posted - 2015.09.07 03:42:28 -
[53] - Quote
Svetlana Laknaya wrote:Statement of purpose. It's about time someone tried to bridge this gap again. The previous attempts have seemed to find little traction, and that is a shame.
As far as your other activities, though, know that Akheteru Integrated Astrometrics offers any Khushakor pilot a 10% discount on any Synthetic or Standard combat booster purchase over 10 million ISK.
Enkil sends his regards.
AIA Pharmaceuticals: What's your drug of choice?Gäó
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Svetlana Laknaya
Khushakor Clan Matari Safari
66
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Posted - 2015.09.07 15:35:22 -
[54] - Quote
Charlinda Akheteru wrote:Svetlana Laknaya wrote:Statement of purpose. It's about time someone tried to bridge this gap again. The previous attempts have seemed to find little traction, and that is a shame. As far as your other activities, though, know that Akheteru Integrated Astrometrics offers any Khushakor pilot a 10% discount on any Synthetic or Standard combat booster purchase over 10 million ISK. Enkil sends his regards.
Thank you for your kind offer, I look forward to doing mutually profitable business with you. |
Nissui
Ancestors Circle
166
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Posted - 2015.09.15 18:32:31 -
[55] - Quote
A venturesome vision, cousin of the Khushakor.
Though my days here number lean, Mivora's indwellers do belie the mandate of enmity between the Tribes and Caldari citizens, and do so present more oft than not as kith in way of thinkin'. Mayhap the Council might see fit to cast words this way of colloquy, and afore long let the truck of two distant peoples show the path to better bargain.
If your Clan marks such a path, may then the ancestors bless. |
Soren Tyrhanos
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
133
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Posted - 2015.09.15 23:05:21 -
[56] - Quote
[redacted] |
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