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Freelancer117
So you want to be a Hero
330
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Posted - 2015.09.06 12:34:03 -
[1] - Quote
Is Plex going to be an in game item only, to be used for all of CCP games services that are sold through the New Eden store ?
For me there is a big controversy going on concerning Plex and how it is used on gambling / lottery sites,
which uses real money to trade for a change to win Plex, that can be converted to isk !
By moving all the uses for Plex into the in game New Eden store,
the loophole for a(ny) real money trading for Plex, that can be converted to isk, can be stopped.
Regards, a Freelancer
PS: CCP please write your EULA/TOS so (non-legal) people can read them properly instead of having to interpret it.
The players will make a better version of the game, then CCP initially plans.
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The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?
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Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
8431
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Posted - 2015.09.06 12:38:50 -
[2] - Quote
I'm not a legal person, and I can read the EULA and ToS just fine.
[b]----
CONCORD arrested two n00bs yesterday, one was drinking battery acid, the other was eating fireworks. They charged one and let the other one off.[/b]
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
25953
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Posted - 2015.09.06 12:43:30 -
[3] - Quote
PLEX can't be converted to ISK, you knowGǪ Also, how is it RMT?
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Freelancer117
So you want to be a Hero
331
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Posted - 2015.09.06 13:39:48 -
[4] - Quote
Tippia wrote:PLEX can't be converted to ISK, you knowGǪ
WOW, just WOW
30 Day Pilot's License Extension (PLEX) is selling above 1.000.000.000 ISK
source: http://i.imgur.com/yqIV8qn.jpg
The players will make a better version of the game, then CCP initially plans.
http://eve-radio.com//images/photos/3419/223/34afa0d7998f0a9a86f737d6.jpg
The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
25953
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Posted - 2015.09.06 13:44:27 -
[5] - Quote
Freelancer117 wrote:WOW, just WOW No, EVE, actually, where you can't convert PLEX to ISK. Do you know what the word GÇ£sellGÇ¥ means?
Oh, and some answers on those other two questions would be nice.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
39925
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Posted - 2015.09.06 13:45:27 -
[6] - Quote
Freelancer117 wrote:Tippia wrote:PLEX can't be converted to ISK, you knowGǪ WOW, just WOW 30 Day Pilot's License Extension (PLEX) is selling above 1.000.000.000 ISK source: http://i.imgur.com/yqIV8qn.jpg What Tippia is saying is:
Before sale:
Player A: PLEX Player B: ISK
After sale:
Player A: ISK Player B: PLEX
The PLEX exists both before and after the sale. It's not converted to ISK. PLEX can be converted to game time, AURUM and additional training queues for example. But otherwise a sale doesn't convert it to anything else. It's still a PLEX.
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Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
8434
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Posted - 2015.09.06 13:47:55 -
[7] - Quote
Freelancer117 wrote: WOW, just WOW
Yes, that is where failed EVE players who are perhaps a little lacking in the brain department should go. Post haste. So good you had to say it twice, right?
[b]----
CONCORD arrested two n00bs yesterday, one was drinking battery acid, the other was eating fireworks. They charged one and let the other one off.[/b]
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Tiberius Heth
Say No to Features
93
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Posted - 2015.09.06 13:52:19 -
[8] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Freelancer117 wrote:Tippia wrote:PLEX can't be converted to ISK, you knowGǪ WOW, just WOW 30 Day Pilot's License Extension (PLEX) is selling above 1.000.000.000 ISK source: http://i.imgur.com/yqIV8qn.jpg What Tippia is saying is: Before sale: Player A: PLEX Player B: ISK After sale: Player A: ISK Player B: PLEX The PLEX exists both before and after the sale. It's not converted to ISK. PLEX can be converted to game time, AURUM and additional training queues for example. But otherwise a sale doesn't convert it to anything else. It's still a PLEX.
It's diving into semantics focussing on a choice words while fully understanding what the person wanted to convey, in order to derail the conversation.
On the subject: Out of game Plex transactions are an easy way to engage in RMT and create a grey area where none should be. They should be kept in game only.
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TigerXtrm
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
1240
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Posted - 2015.09.06 14:04:40 -
[9] - Quote
Quote:For me there is a big controversy going on concerning Plex and how it is used on gambling / lottery sites,
which uses real money to trade for a change to win Plex, that can be converted to isk !
Pretty sure the practice you're describing here is already illegal and has always been illegal. If you're paying some site real money for a CHANCE to win a PLEX that's not only illegal, it's also incredibly stupid.
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Omar Alharazaad
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
2540
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Posted - 2015.09.06 14:15:49 -
[10] - Quote
Surely this means that we ought to simply do away with PLEX. Will solve all sorts of problems. Just, um... lemme get my tear barrels ready if it happens.
Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.
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Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
550
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Posted - 2015.09.06 17:18:43 -
[11] - Quote
Omar Alharazaad wrote:Surely this means that we ought to simply do away with PLEX. Will solve all sorts of problems. Just, um... lemme get my tear barrels ready if it happens.
See eve before plex, it was a lot worse.
Gambling site getting money and person getting plex? That already is a violation of EULA since are profiting off Eve. If you know of said sites, report it. CCP has legal dept to do the rest. If you use said site, well, accept permabanned with dignity. If want isk for dollars, buy your plex from CCP.
(you refering to reader, no OP)
To quote Lfod Shi
The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
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Freelancer117
So you want to be a Hero
332
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Posted - 2015.09.06 17:49:54 -
[12] - Quote
Omar Alharazaad wrote:Surely this means that we ought to simply do away with PLEX. Will solve all sorts of problems. Just, um... lemme get my tear barrels ready if it happens.
The problem is not Plex, it is Plex being used as an out of game item by CCP games. See the yellow question in the first post, and Tippia please take read this, is linked to:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6013325#post6013325
Since trading real money for in game items is forbidden, gambling / betting sites are circumventing the EULA by using Plex. CCP should remedy this by better writing the EULA/TOS, to make it understandable for everyone this should not happen.
CCP games even has promised in the past to put the uses of Plex in to the New Eden store, and so long as that is not done the loophole for trading real money for a chance to win Plex, which can THEN be converted into isk in game, is still there !
source: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4582725#post4582725
Regards, a Freelancer
The players will make a better version of the game, then CCP initially plans.
http://eve-radio.com//images/photos/3419/223/34afa0d7998f0a9a86f737d6.jpg
The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
25960
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Posted - 2015.09.06 17:56:11 -
[13] - Quote
I read it. The language is atrocious and it doesn't really explain what the problem is.
How is it RMT? What's the problem with the EULA? GÇ£They're using PLEXGÇ¥ is the most worthless and uninformative description ever, and the simple fact is that you cannot convert a PLEX to ISK. And yet, that's all you keep saying.
Repeating the same thing over and over again does not actually clarify anything or fill in any of the gaping information holes that raise these questions.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
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Zihao
Signal Cartel EvE-Scout Enclave
45
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Posted - 2015.09.06 18:34:13 -
[14] - Quote
Why would you want to stop a mutually beneficial exchange of game-time and isk between consenting adults which also benefits the producer of this video game we enjoy? |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
3637
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Posted - 2015.09.06 19:30:09 -
[15] - Quote
There is no out of game gambling going on with PLEX. They are using PLEX time codes. Those can only be created with real money. There is no way to get a PLEX time code with ISK. Hence gambling with a PLEX time code is not RMT.
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TigerXtrm
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
1244
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Posted - 2015.09.06 20:16:16 -
[16] - Quote
Freelancer117 wrote:Omar Alharazaad wrote:Surely this means that we ought to simply do away with PLEX. Will solve all sorts of problems. Just, um... lemme get my tear barrels ready if it happens. The problem is not Plex, it is Plex being used as an out of game item by CCP games. See the yellow question in the first post, and Tippia please take read this, is linked to: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6013325#post6013325 Since trading real money for in game items is forbidden, gambling / betting sites are circumventing the EULA by using Plex. CCP should remedy this by better writing the EULA/TOS, to make it understandable for everyone this should not happen. CCP games even has promised in the past to put the uses of Plex in to the New Eden store, and so long as that is not done the loophole for trading real money for a chance to win Plex, which can THEN be converted into isk in game, is still there ! source: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4582725#post4582725 Regards, a Freelancer
How about you actually link us to a site that is 'RMTing with PLEX' according to you. Like Tippia said, you're being incredibly vague.
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Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
8447
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Posted - 2015.09.06 21:02:41 -
[17] - Quote
TigerXtrm wrote: How about you actually link us to a site that is 'RMTing with PLEX' according to you. Like Tippia said, you're being incredibly vague.
Of course you realise that you're wasting your breath, as his vagueness is all that's shielding him between humiliation and...well, just that, really.
[b]----
CONCORD arrested two n00bs yesterday, one was drinking battery acid, the other was eating fireworks. They charged one and let the other one off.[/b]
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
1606
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Posted - 2015.09.06 21:09:00 -
[18] - Quote
my best guess is he is saying gambling sites buy PLEX with rl $, and then lottery them off. which is really how all PLEX get in game, only instead of using a lottery to give them out they just get sold on the market. Also that doesn't really make sense to me as usually the point of a lottery is for the organizer to make isk, IE sell a 1bil plex, but raise 1.2 billion in ticket sales.
the main issue with RMT is going the other way, IE sell your isk/ples for rl $. As long as the gamblers are only using in game assets to play it should all be good.
@ChainsawPlankto
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
39929
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Posted - 2015.09.06 21:11:05 -
[19] - Quote
Bumblefck wrote:TigerXtrm wrote: How about you actually link us to a site that is 'RMTing with PLEX' according to you. Like Tippia said, you're being incredibly vague.
Of course you realise that you're wasting your breath, as his vagueness is all that's shielding him between humiliation and...well, just that, really. The Reddit thread linked to in his other forum post looks like a bit of a beat up so that someone can rattle their pitchforks.
Seems the OP of the Reddit thread didn't really understand what they saw and Freelancer has jumped on the wagon.
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
39929
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Posted - 2015.09.06 21:19:42 -
[20] - Quote
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:my best guess is he is saying gambling sites buy PLEX with rl $, and then lottery them off. which is really how all PLEX get in game, only instead of using a lottery to give them out they just get sold on the market. Also that doesn't really make sense to me as usually the point of a lottery is for the organizer to make isk, IE sell a 1bil plex, but raise 1.2 billion in ticket sales.
the main issue with RMT is going the other way, IE sell your isk/ples for rl $. As long as the gamblers are only using in game assets to play it should all be good. It seems to be an Ironbank/IWantIsk issue.
Some guy on twitch streams games and runs lotteries for people who watch his stream. Everyone can only purchase 1 ticket per lottery with tokens they receive just for watching his stream; and all have an equal chance of winning.
However, for streamers that subscribe to his channel, he buys codes from Markee Dragon and then runs a subscriber only lottery at the end of his stream. Out of game asset lottery and seems to be in line with CCP policy.
Of course, CCP can change their policy at anytime, but this is just a beat up from the look of it.
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2452
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Posted - 2015.09.06 21:29:11 -
[21] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote: It seems to be an Ironbank/IWantIsk issue.
Some guy on twitch streams games and runs lotteries for people who watch his stream. Everyone can only purchase 1 ticket per lottery with tokens they receive just for watching his stream; and all have an equal chance of winning.
However, for streamers that subscribe to his channel, he buys codes from Markee Dragon and then runs a subscriber only lottery at the end of his stream. Out of game asset lottery and seems to be in line with CCP policy.
Of course, CCP can change their policy at anytime, but this is just a beat up from the look of it.
Plex are in game assets, not out of game assets. However if someone thinks he's breaking the policy, there are petitions and there is the CCP IA department E-mail.
Send the information in a COHERENT form to them, using correct terminology and they'll look at it. |
Webvan
All Kill No Skill
13815
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Posted - 2015.09.06 21:35:16 -
[22] - Quote
Freelancer117 wrote: CCP games even has promised in the past to put the uses of Plex in to the New Eden store, and so long as that is not done the loophole for trading real money for a chance to win Plex, which can THEN be converted into isk in game, is still there !
I see a possible issue, but you are not really making a coherent case. Irrelevant with what CCP does or doesn't do regarding PLEX in the store. However, sure, if the gambling site is not an authorized PLEX seller, I could see an issue there ("possibly"), provided they are taking money from players and awarding PLEX in the exchange. I think that's more the issue, and where any such loophole could reside.
Here is a current list of authorized sites: https://secure.eveonline.com/etc.aspx It just depends on CCP's policy regarding authorized and unauthorized PLEX selling sites. If there is a loophole and any defense against it, it would be within that.
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
39929
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Posted - 2015.09.06 21:40:22 -
[23] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Plex are in game assets, not out of game assets. However if someone thinks he's breaking the policy, there are petitions and there is the CCP IA department E-mail.
Send the information in a COHERENT form to them, using correct terminology and they'll look at it. Codes from Markee Dragon are out of game assets. They aren't PLEX until activated through account management.
He doesn't seem to be giving PLEX away directly. Only the codes.
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TigerXtrm
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
1244
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Posted - 2015.09.06 21:55:56 -
[24] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Nevyn Auscent wrote:Plex are in game assets, not out of game assets. However if someone thinks he's breaking the policy, there are petitions and there is the CCP IA department E-mail.
Send the information in a COHERENT form to them, using correct terminology and they'll look at it. Codes from Markee Dragon are out of game assets. They aren't PLEX until activated through account management. He doesn't seem to be giving PLEX away directly. Only the codes.
That's kind of a silly distinction, no?
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Hasikan Miallok
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1479
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Posted - 2015.09.06 21:57:05 -
[25] - Quote
I think people here are being deliberately obtuse.
Here is an example of the problem.
a) Corporation A has 500 billion ISK in game buys PLEX with the ISK and sells them on EBAY for real cash, this is RMT and banned
b) Corporation B as 500 billion ISK in game buys PLEX with the ISK and puts them on a gambling site for Real Cash for a "chance to win". This is also RMT but sems to be ignored.
Example B is clearly an example of using a loopwhole trying to bypass the RMT rules. |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
39931
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Posted - 2015.09.06 21:59:07 -
[26] - Quote
TigerXtrm wrote:Scipio Artelius wrote:Nevyn Auscent wrote:Plex are in game assets, not out of game assets. However if someone thinks he's breaking the policy, there are petitions and there is the CCP IA department E-mail.
Send the information in a COHERENT form to them, using correct terminology and they'll look at it. Codes from Markee Dragon are out of game assets. They aren't PLEX until activated through account management. He doesn't seem to be giving PLEX away directly. Only the codes. That's kind of a silly distinction, no? No, since we are talking EULA/TOS issues and what CCP allow under their policies versus what they don't allow.
So semantics seem to be important because it's not about us as players and totally about CCPs tolerance.
If I had a code say GD34567ABC456, is that a PLEX?
The only answer is no. It's not and no PLEX even exists until that code is activated.
If this was about whether we as players see a code as functionally the same, then my own view would be different. But this is simply about what it actually is and it isn't a PLEX and no in game asset exists.
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
39931
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Posted - 2015.09.06 22:04:53 -
[27] - Quote
Hasikan Miallok wrote:I think people here are being deliberately obtuse.
Here is an example of the problem.
a) Corporation A has 500 billion ISK in game buys PLEX with the ISK and sells them on EBAY for real cash, this is RMT and banned
b) Corporation B as 500 billion ISK in game buys PLEX with the ISK and puts them on a gambling site for Real Cash for a "chance to win". This is also RMT but sems to be ignored.
Example B is clearly an example of using a loopwhole trying to bypass the RMT rules. B is. It what is being complained about in the Reddit thread.
It's:
c) streamer buys codes from Markee Dragon for real money and offers them in a lottery to subscribers of his stream.
He spends real money to purchase the codes and does not use any in game asset or ISK.
CCP seem to be ok with that, though they can change that at any point.
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Webvan
All Kill No Skill
13815
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Posted - 2015.09.06 22:24:14 -
[28] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Nevyn Auscent wrote:Plex are in game assets, not out of game assets. However if someone thinks he's breaking the policy, there are petitions and there is the CCP IA department E-mail.
Send the information in a COHERENT form to them, using correct terminology and they'll look at it. Codes from Markee Dragon are out of game assets. They aren't PLEX until activated through account management. He doesn't seem to be giving PLEX away directly. Only the codes. Well he's on the authorized dealer list, so yes using out of game codes to claim PLEX in that way would be legal.
Now I could see that if someone is running a site, taking money there, then from in-game buying or trading to get a PLEX, then transferring it to that player from the site that paid money, then yeah that could likely fall into RMT.
In other words, I could farm 1b and buy a PLEX off the market in Jita, take real money from someone and then give them the PLEX in game. That would obviously be illegal RMT. No?
I think the difference with gambling sites (one that takes real money), they take in far more money than it costs to buy a PLEX. So they don't even need to actually farm to buy a PLEX, just take a portion of the money they make from a site and gift a PLEX. So it is a unique situation, not generally traditional with RMT'ing in MMO's.
One moral difference is that the traditional RMT'er can be employing sweatshop labor to RMT at slave labor cost etc. In this case though, the moral dilemma is that a third-party website is using EVE as a front to taking money from weak gambling addicts.
That is where CCP's lawyers would need to determine risk vs CCP's interest, reviewing case history and such, which is a problem internationally by the wide range of laws. In some cases, depending on local or national governments, gambling is illegal. CCP is not directly involved, yet is entangled into the process by a function if real money is being used, or even paid tokens.
And I would probably write more, but I'm just not that interested in the subject. EVE is DyingGäó?
I'm in it for the money
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
16994
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Posted - 2015.09.06 22:24:38 -
[29] - Quote
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=1542767
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
39931
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Posted - 2015.09.06 22:29:49 -
[30] - Quote
Webvan wrote:Scipio Artelius wrote:Nevyn Auscent wrote:Plex are in game assets, not out of game assets. However if someone thinks he's breaking the policy, there are petitions and there is the CCP IA department E-mail.
Send the information in a COHERENT form to them, using correct terminology and they'll look at it. Codes from Markee Dragon are out of game assets. They aren't PLEX until activated through account management. He doesn't seem to be giving PLEX away directly. Only the codes. Well he's on the authorized dealer list, so yes using out of game codes to claim PLEX in that way would be legal. Not quite. It's not the reseller policy, it's the video monetisation one:
http://community.eveonline.com/support/policies/monetization-of-videos-and-streaming-policy/
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