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Nightfox BloodRaven
State Protectorate Caldari State
42
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Posted - 2015.09.08 02:02:28 -
[1] - Quote
Any word on when this might occur?
Still wanna know why they dont have t2 resist lol
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unidenify
Plundering Penguins Solyaris Chtonium
128
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Posted - 2015.09.08 02:32:43 -
[2] - Quote
probably same reason why Marauder don't have t2 resist.
reason is I don't know why
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Nightfox BloodRaven
State Protectorate Caldari State
42
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Posted - 2015.09.08 02:43:57 -
[3] - Quote
unidenify wrote:probably same reason why Marauder don't have t2 resist.
reason is I don't know why
LOL marauders dont have t2 resist? lol never heard of bastion ? lol |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
859
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Posted - 2015.09.08 04:35:31 -
[4] - Quote
Both classes should have T2 resists.
Bastion is a seperate thing. |
FireFrenzy
SUPREME MATHEMATICS A Band Apart.
578
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Posted - 2015.09.08 05:40:22 -
[5] - Quote
marauders in bastion have t2 resists i think... marauders with base t2 resists would be a thing to see though.... |
Arthur Aihaken
Perkone Caldari State
4630
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Posted - 2015.09.08 05:48:02 -
[6] - Quote
unidenify wrote:probably same reason why Marauder don't have t2 resist. reason is I don't know why You obviously missed the memo...
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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RcTamiya
SUPREME MATHEMATICS A Band Apart.
6
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Posted - 2015.09.08 06:28:08 -
[7] - Quote
FireFrenzy wrote:marauders in bastion have t2 resists i think... marauders with base t2 resists would be a thing to see though....
140k dps tank on Vargur aint enough :) |
Lugh Crow-Slave
1215
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Posted - 2015.09.08 09:07:51 -
[8] - Quote
Nightfox BloodRaven wrote: Still wanna know why they dont have t2 resist lol
As has been pointed out in all the other BLOPS threads they do not need nor should they have T2 resists
they can already mount a good size tank for what they do these are not ships that are meant to stay in field for very long and have instead given up high tank for their extreme mobility.
Blops do not need all that much changed it is a relatively balanced class all the different blops have their role and do it very well. Even the under appreciated Sin has its place and fills its niche better than any of the other blops.
with that said there are a few small changes that could be made here or there to the blops and yes phoebe did take away some of their maneuverability by forcing them to commit to the field until their timer winds down rather than just being able to cap up and GTFO if they landed in a mess.
common things that come up that blops do not need
-Cov ops cloak
-higher scan res (or reduction to cloak penalty)
-T2 resists (a slightly better resist profile could be warranted)
-Removal of fatigue
-larger fuel bay
-more E-war
-larger jump range
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Celthric Kanerian
Ascendance Of New Eden Workers Trade Federation
437
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Posted - 2015.09.08 09:19:29 -
[9] - Quote
This post is neither an idea nor a new feature... |
Rek Seven
Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
1990
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Posted - 2015.09.08 09:50:01 -
[10] - Quote
The longer this goes on the more i think adding a cover cloak would be the best option. If this where to happen, when you compare a cover black ops to all other covert combat ships, it would fit in nicely.
DPS would only be a little more than a T3 or stratios
Their tank and scan res are lower than a t3
Their align time is longer, making them easier to catch on gates
The list goes on...
It makes zero sense to deny battleships access to a covert cloak simply because they are called battleships.
You sound like an idiot when you say "create content" when you mean find a fight, gank, etc... Stop it!
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Luscius Uta
155
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Posted - 2015.09.08 10:41:53 -
[11] - Quote
Even though Blops are usually designed for ganks and bridging, I think that ships so valuable shouldn't have such paper-thin tanks. Even stealth bombers have better tanks when you compare them with T1 ships of the same class. While I don't think they should be as tanky as Marauders, they should at least have the same resist profile. Also, since they commonly have a cap booster fitted, give them a bonus to cap injection amount. |
Lan Wang
V I R I I Ineluctable.
1470
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Posted - 2015.09.08 10:48:38 -
[12] - Quote
i dont think people understand when asking for a covert ops cloak, they dont need it because they have a jump drive, they dont need t2 resists because they have a jump drive
EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding | Digital Design
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Lan Wang
V I R I I Ineluctable.
1470
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Posted - 2015.09.08 10:49:58 -
[13] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:The longer this goes on the more i think adding a covert cloak would be the best option. If this where to happen, when you compare a cover black ops to all other covert combat ships, it would fit in nicely.
DPS would only be a little more than a T3 or stratios
Their tank and scan res are lower than a t3
Their align time is longer, making them easier to catch on gates
The list goes on...
I can't think of a single legitimate reason not to do this... It makes zero sense to deny battleships access to a covert cloak simply because they are called battleships.
legitimate reason = they have a jump drive, do you really think adding covops cloak to such a slow ship would have any benefit at all? why even use a blops if other battleships do brawling better, blops is made to be a suprise ship not something which has to take gates to get to a fight.
cov ops cloak on a blops is the stupidest idea ive ever heard
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Lugh Crow-Slave
1217
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Posted - 2015.09.08 10:58:45 -
[14] - Quote
Luscius Uta wrote:Even though Blops are usually designed for ganks and bridging, I think that ships so valuable shouldn't have such paper-thin tanks.
A. Cost has nothing to do with it
B. these ships do not have paper thin tanks. Some fits are paper thin to get the most out of one aspect of the ship but they can also manage a pretty hefty brick tank
Now on to why no to the Cov ops cloak
while the ability to warp cloaked would not break the black ops it would change a good deal of the mechanics and fitting choices
for one the bonus to the cloaked speed would have to be nerffed removing a reason to fit a variety of cloaks
they would have to have their sensor strengths nerfed removing the reward for not fitting one or for fitting higher metta cloaks
all of that along with the fact that BLOPS do not need a cov ops cloak is why most say no to the Cov ops cloak
Fuel block colors? Missiles for Caldari T3? Corp Stasis
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Rek Seven
Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
1990
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Posted - 2015.09.08 11:43:13 -
[15] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote: legitimate reason = they have a jump drive, do you really think adding covops cloak to such a slow ship would have any benefit at all? why even use a blops if other battleships do brawling better, blops is made to be a suprise ship not something which has to take gates to get to a fight.
"Because it has a jump drive" is not a legitimate reason to not give a cloak. And neither is "because they shouldn't use gates". opening up more opportunities for Blops to be caught on gates would be a good thing IMO.
I would rather black ops be changed into something fun and interesting to fly rather than yet another overtanked dps platfor than can drop on a target out of the blue.
So i stick to what i said; black ops should get a covert cloak. Any issues you have with it can easily be addressed with mechanic tweaks.
You sound like an idiot when you say "create content" when you mean find a fight, gank, etc... Stop it!
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1951
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Posted - 2015.09.08 11:58:43 -
[16] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote: Any issues people have with a cloak can easily be addressed with mechanic tweaks.
LOLWUT?!
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Lan Wang
V I R I I Ineluctable.
1471
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Posted - 2015.09.08 12:04:11 -
[17] - Quote
having a jumpdrive is a very legitimate reason to not give it a cov ops cloak, you just refuse to accept it, a ship than can drop on other ships via a covert cyno does not need to have a covert ops cloak, its pointless, and i didnt say "they shouldnt use gates" you can use gates all you want in a black ops it still has a cloak and has enough tank to burn back to a gate if it gets in trouble and it can also fit a mjd along with so much tackle, ewar and dps.
being able to kill them on gates is not a valid reason to give a cov ops cloak.
And black ops are super fun the way they are
do you live in highsec by any chance?
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1951
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Posted - 2015.09.08 12:07:05 -
[18] - Quote
Actually the legitimate call for it, is wormholes, for heavier additions to a cloaky fleet.
They'd make a nice change of pace to see. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
1217
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Posted - 2015.09.08 12:15:17 -
[19] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Actually the legitimate call for it, is wormholes, for heavier additions to a cloaky fleet.
They'd make a nice change of pace to see.
i already use them in wh fleets.....
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Lugh Crow-Slave
1217
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Posted - 2015.09.08 12:26:17 -
[20] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: for one the bonus to the cloaked speed would have to be nerffed removing a reason to fit a variety of cloaks
all of that along with the fact that BLOPS do not need a cov ops cloak is why most say no to the Cov ops cloak
What it "needs" is down to personal opinion but that's not to say yours isn't valuable. I see no reason for the cloak speed bonus to be removed... Maybe the bonus should be increased but only applies to non covert cloaks. So i stick to what i said; black ops should get a covert cloak as giving it more tank or more dps is a far greater balance issue. Any issues people have with a cloak can easily be addressed with mechanic tweaks.
the only thing it needs a cov cloak for is to warp while off D-scan
and to do this you want to give up or put exceptions into bonuses
loose risk/reward in the form of different cloak choices
nerf base stats of the hull
this is just not a good trade in any way so how about an argument as to why they should have cov ops cloaks
Fuel block colors? Missiles for Caldari T3? Corp Stasis
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1951
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Posted - 2015.09.08 12:30:34 -
[21] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:afkalt wrote:Actually the legitimate call for it, is wormholes, for heavier additions to a cloaky fleet.
They'd make a nice change of pace to see. i already use them in wh fleets..... this is mosstly for lulz as t3s do it better and would still even if blops got the cov cloak
Blops can get better DPS/hull ratio if you're low on bodies.
Redeemer is a solid 1100-1200 with heat - cloaky T3s can't get up there.
It's niche, granted.
I doubt much else would change even if they got the cloak, let's face it the existing meta is jump>gank>watch netflix whilst waiting out fatigue>jump home. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
1217
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Posted - 2015.09.08 12:33:36 -
[22] - Quote
afkalt wrote:
Blops can get better DPS/hull ratio if you're low on bodies.
Redeemer is a solid 1100-1200 with heat - cloaky T3s can't get up there.
It's niche, granted.
I doubt much else would change even if they got the cloak, let's face it the existing meta is jump>gank>watch netflix whilst waiting out fatigue>jump home.
true but how much are you willing to lose for that niche
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1951
|
Posted - 2015.09.08 12:39:16 -
[23] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:afkalt wrote:
Blops can get better DPS/hull ratio if you're low on bodies.
Redeemer is a solid 1100-1200 with heat - cloaky T3s can't get up there.
It's niche, granted.
I doubt much else would change even if they got the cloak, let's face it the existing meta is jump>gank>watch netflix whilst waiting out fatigue>jump home.
true but how much are you willing to lose for that niche
I'd like to think they've already paid for their sins with fatigue tbh
However I don't want one, doesn't matter to me, just pointing out there is a narrow case where it would be useful. It wouldn't add much to the area of the game I use mine in. |
Rek Seven
Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
1990
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Posted - 2015.09.08 12:44:53 -
[24] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: this is just not a good trade in any way so how about an argument as to why they should have cov ops cloaks
Simple. Right now they are either bridging platforms or gank ships. If you use it as a gank ship there are already ships that can do the job as good if not better and if you are using it a bridge ship, you are a bored pilot or and alt..
A covert ops cloak would make the ship better in my opinion, while keeping it balanced. I'm not saying that it needs to have a cloak, i'm saying that a covert cloak would be better than T2 resists.
You sound like an idiot when you say "create content" when you mean find a fight, gank, etc... Stop it!
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Lugh Crow-Slave
1218
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Posted - 2015.09.08 12:48:02 -
[25] - Quote
afkalt wrote:I'd like to think they've already paid for their sins with fatigue tbh However I don't want one, doesn't matter to me, just pointing out there is a narrow case where it would be useful. It wouldn't add much to the area of the game I use mine in.
Well like i have pointed out being active during warp is not the only thing they do different and this would break them if they stayed as they are now lol
as well fatigue did not hurt them near as much as you hear ppl complain about other than no instant gtfo once cap is up
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Lugh Crow-Slave
1218
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Posted - 2015.09.08 12:52:52 -
[26] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: this is just not a good trade in any way so how about an argument as to why they should have cov ops cloaks
Simple. Right now they are either bridging platforms or gank ships. If you use it as a gank ship there are already ships that can do the job as good if not better and if you are using it a bridge ship, you are a bored pilot or and alt. Adding a cloak would make black ops the next step for those of us who like cloaky combat and scouting, at the price of the inherent weaknesses of battleships. A covert ops cloak would make the ship better in my opinion, while keeping it balanced. I'm not saying that it needs to have a cloak, i'm saying that a covert cloak would be better than T2 resists.
except it is meant to be a gank ship a get in do the job get out deal
not many ships can do the gank job as good as some of the blops
but plenty of ships can do scouting much much better and it would not make them much better for cloaky combat
and even if cov cloak is better that t2 resists neither is better than using the cov ops cloak
Fuel block colors? Missiles for Caldari T3? Corp Stasis
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Rek Seven
Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
1990
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Posted - 2015.09.08 12:54:47 -
[27] - Quote
So you think they are perfect the way they are?
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: and even if cov cloak is better that t2 resists neither is better than using the cov ops cloak
What?
You sound like an idiot when you say "create content" when you mean find a fight, gank, etc... Stop it!
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Lan Wang
V I R I I Ineluctable.
1474
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Posted - 2015.09.08 12:55:40 -
[28] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:So you think they are perfect the way they are?
I dont see an issue with them tbh
EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding | Digital Design
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1951
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Posted - 2015.09.08 13:03:34 -
[29] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:afkalt wrote:I'd like to think they've already paid for their sins with fatigue tbh However I don't want one, doesn't matter to me, just pointing out there is a narrow case where it would be useful. It wouldn't add much to the area of the game I use mine in. Well like i have pointed out being active during warp is not the only thing they do different and this would break them if they stayed as they are now lol as well fatigue did not hurt them near as much as you hear ppl complain about other than no instant gtfo once cap is up
Oh it doesn't hurt that much, it's just in the field of collateral damage waiting on timers is all. Hurt? No. Engaging gameplay and meaningful decisions? Good lord no. Largely down to their cloak, just activate and wait. |
Luscius Uta
155
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Posted - 2015.09.08 13:27:35 -
[30] - Quote
I wouldn't want to see them being able to fit Covops cloak but making them not appear on dscan could be interesting... |
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Lugh Crow-Slave
1218
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Posted - 2015.09.08 13:29:35 -
[31] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:
Nah i think bombers are the gank ship, whereas Black ops are intended to be a ship that excels at operating behind enemy lines.
The only thing black ops ships excel at is using the black ops portal.
Do you think they are perfect the way they are?
blops get much more dps than bombers and can apply it to a wider range of targets bombers just carry less risk
no i'm sure there is something out there that could improve them i just have not come across one that doesn't over power them
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: and even if cov cloak is better that t2 resists neither is better than using the cov ops cloak
not giving cov ops cloak or t2 resists is the better choice
Fuel block colors? Missiles for Caldari T3? Corp Stasis
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Rek Seven
Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
1990
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Posted - 2015.09.08 13:31:48 -
[32] - Quote
Luscius Uta wrote:I wouldn't want to see them being able to fit Covops cloak but making them not appear on dscan could be interesting...
That would fit with the idea of black ops... I would be happy with that along with an increase in cloaked velocity or the ability to use a prop mod cloaked
You sound like an idiot when you say "create content" when you mean find a fight, gank, etc... Stop it!
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Lan Wang
V I R I I Ineluctable.
1474
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Posted - 2015.09.08 13:38:10 -
[33] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:Luscius Uta wrote:I wouldn't want to see them being able to fit Covops cloak but making them not appear on dscan could be interesting... That would fit with the idea of black ops... I would be happy with that along with an increase in cloaked velocity or the ability to use a prop mod cloaked
i dont get what you intend to achieve with this while it has a jumpdrive and mjd
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Rek Seven
Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
1990
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Posted - 2015.09.08 13:38:20 -
[34] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: blops get much more dps than bombers and can apply it to a wider range of targets bombers just carry less risk
no i'm sure there is something out there that could improve them i just have not come across one that doesn't over power them
I don't think cov cloaks make them OP but I guess we will just have to see what CCP does. I have always wanted a black ops ship but they just don't offer enough advantages over other ships intended for similar tasks... I just hope CCP do something interesting.
Did you ever see the "sun bounce" idea? That was pretty cool. Basically it allowed Blops to jump to the sun of a system in range without a cyno.
You sound like an idiot when you say "create content" when you mean find a fight, gank, etc... Stop it!
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Iain Cariaba
1780
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Posted - 2015.09.08 13:53:15 -
[35] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: blops get much more dps than bombers and can apply it to a wider range of targets bombers just carry less risk
no i'm sure there is something out there that could improve them i just have not come across one that doesn't over power them
I don't think cov cloaks make them OP but I guess we will just have to see what CCP does. I have always wanted a black ops ship but they just don't offer enough advantages over other ships intended for similar tasks... I just hope CCP do something interesting. Did you ever see the "sun bounce" idea? That was pretty cool. Basically it allowed Blops to jump to the sun of a system in range without a cyno. Other ships intended for similar tasks?!?! What other ships? The only other ship that can bridge a fleet is a Titan, and BlOps provide many, many advantages over a 100+ bil isk space coffin. Or how about the fact that if you train Black Ops skill up, it's the only ship to fly faster cloaked than decloaked.
The only advantage a covops cloak provides is the ability to warp cloaked, which a BlOps does not need. A BlOps is a battleship, and as such should not be fielded unless you have a support fleet to field with it. CCP apparently took this into consideration when they left the covops cloak off in the first place.
EvE is hard. It's harder if you're stupid.
I couldn't have said it better.
Will troll for a t-shirt.
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Rek Seven
Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
1990
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Posted - 2015.09.08 14:09:29 -
[36] - Quote
Try reading the rest of the thread mate.
You sound like an idiot when you say "create content" when you mean find a fight, gank, etc... Stop it!
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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1355
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Posted - 2015.09.08 14:09:42 -
[37] - Quote
If you give them a cov ops cloak LS will be littered w/ smartbombing BLOPS BS cloak warping around wreaking havoc. If you want LS to be totally deserted - give blops the covert ops cloak. |
Soldarius
Naliao Inc. Test Alliance Please Ignore
1376
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Posted - 2015.09.08 14:15:54 -
[38] - Quote
Luscius Uta wrote:I wouldn't want to see them being able to fit Covops cloak but making them not appear on dscan could be interesting...
I was just thinking that. But as I consider what that would bring to blops, I can't really think of an advantage that would give them. They spend most of their time cloaked anyway.
http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
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Lan Wang
V I R I I Ineluctable.
1474
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Posted - 2015.09.08 14:27:36 -
[39] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:If you give them a cov ops cloak LS will be littered w/ smartbombing BLOPS BS cloak warping around wreaking havoc. If you want LS to be totally deserted - give blops the covert ops cloak.
yeah and never get used in null because bubbles, and bombers are faster and cheaper to use, great black operation though "scout on gate shouts in comms, 10 black ops battleships coming your way 2 jumps out"
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Rivr Luzade
Exclusion Cartel The Kadeshi
1864
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Posted - 2015.09.08 14:27:47 -
[40] - Quote
I wonder what's wrong with BLOPS only being a bridge or gank platform? If you want fleet combat, there are better tools available for less money and with less skill requirements, and these tools are a lot sturdier than BLOPS. And while BLOPS can only bridge ships that can fit Covert Ops Cloaks, they can bridge farther than any of the other 2 bridging platforms.
The role of the BLOPS is assaulting things far behind enemy lines. They can fulfill this role perfectly right now. They do not need another role, or this role altered or expanded upon, so that they turn into a fleet platform for 500+ man fights, but give up their vital assaulting characteristics.
Station Tab :: UI Improvement Collective
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Rek Seven
Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
1990
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Posted - 2015.09.08 14:44:06 -
[41] - Quote
If you guys only want them to be a gank or bridging ship, do they need the cloaked velocity bonus?
Does anyone get any use out of that bonus? It's so slow that it hardly seems useful... I figure that it is intended to get close to your target but that would require you to be waiting on grid before your target arrives.
You sound like an idiot when you say "create content" when you mean find a fight, gank, etc... Stop it!
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Iain Cariaba
1781
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Posted - 2015.09.08 14:53:50 -
[42] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:If you guys only want them to be a gank or bridging ship, do they need the cloaked velocity bonus?
Does anyone get any use out of that bonus? It's so slow that it hardly seems useful... I figure that it is intended to get close to your target but that would require you to be waiting on grid before your target arrives. It's to get you off your safe spot while cloaked in case hostiles are probing you down. Here's a hint, if you're trying to slow boat cloaked to your target, you're using the ship wrong. *cough*jumpdrive*cough*
EvE is hard. It's harder if you're stupid.
I couldn't have said it better.
Will troll for a t-shirt.
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Lugh Crow-Slave
1218
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Posted - 2015.09.08 20:00:01 -
[43] - Quote
Soldarius wrote:Luscius Uta wrote:I wouldn't want to see them being able to fit Covops cloak but making them not appear on dscan could be interesting... I was just thinking that. But as I consider what that would bring to blops, I can't really think of an advantage that would give them. They spend most of their time cloaked anyway.
not to mention one of the only ways to counter a blops is to know its there this makes deciding when to d-cloak/undock in the blops a hard choice as you do not want to be spotted sure probes would still get you but overall i don't think its something blops need
it is one of the things i think would have the lowest impact but that is not always a pro for adding something
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Lugh Crow-Slave
1218
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Posted - 2015.09.08 20:01:47 -
[44] - Quote
Iain Cariaba wrote:Rek Seven wrote:If you guys only want them to be a gank or bridging ship, do they need the cloaked velocity bonus?
Does anyone get any use out of that bonus? It's so slow that it hardly seems useful... I figure that it is intended to get close to your target but that would require you to be waiting on grid before your target arrives. It's to get you off your safe spot while cloaked in case hostiles are probing you down. Here's a hint, if you're trying to slow boat cloaked to your target, you're using the ship wrong. *cough*jumpdrive*cough*
not to mention it greatly increases align time and makes gate to gate travel a bit easier. something done much more by blops now that they can't just jump jump jump
Fuel block colors? Missiles for Caldari T3? Corp Stasis
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Arla Sarain
639
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Posted - 2015.09.08 20:25:28 -
[45] - Quote
Every time I see thread like these it makes me wonder who and why actually thinks there is a problem with BLOPs.
It sounds like the discontent arises from the trend that BLOPs are not used in large fights that this game is famed for. But that's only because overfitting BLOPs with purple is so popular, which in its own way is a magnet for getting blobbed.
BLOPs, whilst given role with an ambiguous meaning by devs, have found a niche as potent gank boats. Whilst there are proBLOPS/purists to whom this may sound trivial and somewhat of peasant role, the niche is useful because it churns valuable commodities out of the game. BLOPs are powerful tools to use against blingy ratters, which upon death remove 50% of the stuff.
BLOPs are cleaning EVE. It might not be glamorous, but they should be welcomed the way they are.
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Vic Jefferson
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
584
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Posted - 2015.09.08 21:14:25 -
[46] - Quote
Nightfox BloodRaven wrote:Still wanna know why they dont have t2 resist lol
This would be terrible for the game.
Mobility. Damage. Tank. Pick Two, and you have a philosophically balanced ship.
Blops BS have incredible mobility and damage.
Marauders have incredible tank and damage.
Marauders are the TII ship that is meant to go toe to toe with pretty much everything, and win. Even without static TII resists they can take an incredible amount of punishment with the right fits and tactics. If they had static TII resists, they would be hilariously overpowered and verge on realistically un-killable by anything short of a dreadnought.
Blops aren't meant to go toe to toe with other BS in a fight, let alone supersede them. They are by nature meant for hit and run and harassment tactics. They are not meant to be better line BS. If the SIn had TII resists....can you imagine a Dominix hull with TII resists that can jump 8LY at a time? That would be hilariously overpowered and they would become the best at everything at once, and invalidate all other ship choices in the game.
Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X
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M1k3y Koontz
Respawn Disabled Initiative Mercenaries
795
|
Posted - 2015.09.08 21:48:36 -
[47] - Quote
BLOPs need to be brought up to the level of Redeemers. The Redeemer is the gold standard in BLOPs, and other BLOPs pale in comparison. Panthers don't have the tank or damage or application at range.
I won't comment on other BLOPs since I don't fly them, but in every BLOPs fleet I've been on, Redeemers outnumber other BLOPs by at least 3:1.
Fuel bay is fine as it is, cloaking isn't the problem, it's just the fact that they're generally underwhelming. Make the Panther, Widow, and Sin as good as the Redeemer and I'll be happy.
How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
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Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
3084
|
Posted - 2015.09.08 23:34:41 -
[48] - Quote
Barring everything else, my personal view about ships is; No sub-capital ship should require the use of an alt to be used for its intended role.
Now I already know there will be "use a fleet member to cyno you in" coming. But the same could be said about capitals but there is a reason that every capital pilot has a cyno alt on a separate account.
If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
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Aliventi
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
909
|
Posted - 2015.09.09 00:44:59 -
[49] - Quote
BlOps do not need a covert ops cloak. The cloaked velocity bonus makes BlOps very viable without giving them covert cloaks. Those who do not use BlOps BS often see this as a wasted bonus. Those that do see it as crucial to their BlOps BS survive-ability. You see the cloaked velocity bonus allows the BlOps BS to kill ther target, MJD off, cloak, align to a safe, decloak and instantly go into warp. Upon landing at their safe they can cloak up and move quickly to get out of the way in case they were probed.
While you can argue that a covert ops cloak would allow BlOps BS to do the exact same thing easier. I would kind of agree. You then have to deal with this undeniable fact: Covert Ops Cloaks are a powerful bonus. Therefore, giving BlOps BS a Covert Ops cloak it would require a compensatory nerf. There isn't much you can nerf on the BlOps BS without making them totally irrelevant. BlOps deserve better than to be nerfed because people are bad at flying BlOps BS.
tl;dr: BlOps BS don't need a covert ops cloak because they get the exact same functionality out of the cloaked velocity bonus, 0 target delay upon decloaking bonus, and the 5 second recloak bonus.
Now you may ask: "What the do BlOps really need?" I have an answer for you!
- They need their fitting adjusted. Every BlOps needs more CPU or PG. I am not advocating for enough fitting room that they can fit whatever they want. I am advocating for enough fitting space that it will no longer be mandatory to faction/deadspace fit a BlOps BS to get a decent fit on it.
- BlOps BS need to be combat focused. Bring a recon if you want bonused EWAR. Therefore, the Widow needs to lose its ECM bonus and be changed to a missile DPS boat.
- Shift the cloaked velocity bonus to a 250% cloaked velocity role bonus. This will free up a bonus for each of the BlOps BS for something cool that will make BlOps stand out.
- Remove the inertia bonus from the Sin and the velocity bonus from the Panther and give them real bonuses. The Cap use bonus on the Redeemer can also go.
- WOULD BE SUPER COOL IF: CCP could make it so that the jump portal generator became a required part to build a BlOps BS and the functionality was built in.
- OPTIONAL: While many will argue for or against T2 resists I think CCP should evaluate the potential for them to have half t2 resists. It would give them a touch more tank without making them gamebreaking. If CCP determines this to be too powerful then that is okay.
- OPTIONAL: The Sin should be either drone focused or blaster focused. The Dual bonuses are weird, but not awful.
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Rawketsled
Generic Corp Name
278
|
Posted - 2015.09.09 02:18:05 -
[50] - Quote
5. No. It's a fittable module to create a fitting choice. If I had my way, jump drives would also be fittable modules.
7. Hybrids. Definitely not drones. Blops should be able to disengage and cloak back up without losing their DPS. |
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Lugh Crow-Slave
1218
|
Posted - 2015.09.09 02:55:07 -
[51] - Quote
M1k3y Koontz wrote:BLOPs need to be brought up to the level of Redeemers. The Redeemer is the gold standard in BLOPs, and other BLOPs pale in comparison. Panthers don't have the tank or damage or application at range.
I won't comment on other BLOPs since I don't fly them, but in every BLOPs fleet I've been on, Redeemers outnumber other BLOPs by at least 3:1.
Fuel bay is fine as it is, cloaking isn't the problem, it's just the fact that they're generally underwhelming. Make the Panther, Widow, and Sin as good as the Redeemer and I'll be happy.
lol wut?
Widow has the highest DPS and aplication at the widest variety of ranges
Sin has fastest and best aplication over the widest variety of targets
panther is the fastest and has amazing DPS aplication over close range
Redeemer is tank and has good application at mid range
Fuel block colors? Missiles for Caldari T3? Corp Stasis
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Lugh Crow-Slave
1218
|
Posted - 2015.09.09 02:56:55 -
[52] - Quote
Rawketsled wrote:5. No. It's a fittable module to create a fitting choice. If I had my way, jump drives would also be fittable modules.
7. Hybrids. Definitely not drones. Blops should be able to disengage and cloak back up without losing their DPS.
As a Sin pilot i would not want to lose my abuility to not only forgo my scan res penalty but be able to apply damage to all targets just because i need to pull in drones b4 i leave field or go get new ones
Fuel block colors? Missiles for Caldari T3? Corp Stasis
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Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
2613
|
Posted - 2015.09.09 03:47:04 -
[53] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:common things that come up that blops do not need
-Cov ops cloak
-higher scan res (or reduction to cloak penalty)
-T2 resists (a slightly better resist profile could be warranted)
-Removal of fatigue
-larger fuel bay
-more E-war
-larger jump range
Marauders have a T2 resist bonus, it's much smaller than what Assault-type ships get, but those resist bonuses make a huge difference in the ship's ability to mitigate damage. It drastically increases their effective hit points as well as the effectiveness of hit point recovery. It's easier to forgive with frigates because they don't have enough slots to take advantage of the resists very well, and are still fairly easy to pop once you web and paint them. I feel if anything T2 cruisers should have their resist bonuses decreased a bit, and I'd say Marauders have it about right.
That being said, Black Ops have less resist bonus than Marauders and, coupled with their piddly HP, is barely any defense at all. Of course they don't need much defense since they don't do a lot of combat, but it's not really unbalancing to make them able to hold their own in combat, either. Consider rebalances to command ships and combat battlecruisers: now they can fit the ganglinks and still tank and shoot effectively. Nobody seems to think they're overpowered in this new form, but it will go a long way toward making them popular for boosting whenever boosts go on-grid, which I suspect was CCP's thinking here.
Now Black Ops don't need to ever be brought on grid, but it happens sometimes that they inadvertently find themselves in the midst of a battle. It makes sense that a ship so expensive would have some decent defenses, at least on-par with the smaller T1 battleships. As it stands, Black Ops are squishier than the "tier 1" tech 1 battleships. I'd go for increasing their HP to match the tech 1 "tier 1" lineup and increasing their resists to be on-par with marauders. It's not like they can use bastion modules to go even higher like marauders can.
Furthermore, Black Ops have weapon bonuses that don't make a lot of sense if they aren't supposed to be taken into combat. Their only relevant bonuses are the two Black Ops skill bonuses; the two racial battleship skill bonuses go generally unused. The Widow is somewhat unpopular among Black Ops because it has an ECM bonus instead of an agility bonus like the Sin, or a speed bonus like the Panther. But I'd suggest a new style of Black Ops: take out the weapon bonuses and replace them with jamming EWAR--it's not for combat but for defensive use, it's to help protect the valuable Black Ops ship while you get it off the field. Then make sure all 4 of them have a maneuverability bonus. It would look like this:
Redeemer Amarr Battleships skill bonuses tracking disruptor strength tracking disruptor range Black Ops skill bonuses ship agility velocity while cloaked
Widow Caldari Battleships skill bonuses ECM jammer strength ECM jammer range Black Ops skill bonuses ship velocity velocity while cloaked
Sin Gallente Battleships skill bonuses sensor dampener strength sensor dampener range Black Ops skill bonuses ship agility velocity while cloaked
Panther Amarr Battleships skill bonuses target painter strength stasis webifier range Black Ops skill bonuses ship velocity velocity while cloaked
(The painting/webbing bonuses on the Panther can be used to help destroy small tackling ships.)
This way you can take advantage of the EWAR without giving up on the mobility. Might make the Widow a lot less unpopular.
Pirate ship Nightmare, can you fathom
Larger but with smaller spikes than Phantasm
The Succubus looks meaner
But the Revenant cleaner
Seems as they get bigger, the smaller spikes they has'm
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ApolloF117 HUN
Angels and Demons Inc. Mordus Angels
19
|
Posted - 2015.09.09 03:52:42 -
[54] - Quote
RcTamiya wrote:FireFrenzy wrote:marauders in bastion have t2 resists i think... marauders with base t2 resists would be a thing to see though.... 140k dps tank on Vargur aint enough :)
how do you tank out 140k dps? a titan can't tank that |
Luscius Uta
156
|
Posted - 2015.09.09 06:09:34 -
[55] - Quote
I suppose he meant EHP.
Soldarius wrote:Luscius Uta wrote:I wouldn't want to see them being able to fit Covops cloak but making them not appear on dscan could be interesting... I was just thinking that. But as I consider what that would bring to blops, I can't really think of an advantage that would give them. They spend most of their time cloaked anyway.
One more reason to introduce it then - it wouldn't break anything (and goes along well with their role) |
Lugh Crow-Slave
1219
|
Posted - 2015.09.09 06:24:52 -
[56] - Quote
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:common things that come up that blops do not need
-Cov ops cloak
-higher scan res (or reduction to cloak penalty)
-T2 resists (a slightly better resist profile could be warranted)
-Removal of fatigue
-larger fuel bay
-more E-war
-larger jump range Marauders have a T2 resist bonus, it's much smaller than what Assault-type ships get, but those resist bonuses make a huge difference in the ship's ability to mitigate damage. It drastically increases their effective hit points as well as the effectiveness of hit point recovery. It's easier to forgive with frigates because they don't have enough slots to take advantage of the resists very well, and are still fairly easy to pop once you web and paint them. I feel if anything T2 cruisers should have their resist bonuses decreased a bit, and I'd say Marauders have it about right. That being said, Black Ops have less resist bonus than Marauders and, coupled with their piddly HP, is barely any defense at all. Of course they don't need much defense since they don't do a lot of combat, but it's not really unbalancing to make them able to hold their own in combat, either. Consider rebalances to command ships and combat battlecruisers: now they can fit the ganglinks and still tank and shoot effectively. Nobody seems to think they're overpowered in this new form, but it will go a long way toward making them popular for boosting whenever boosts go on-grid, which I suspect was CCP's thinking here. Now Black Ops don't need to ever be brought on grid, but it happens sometimes that they inadvertently find themselves in the midst of a battle. It makes sense that a ship so expensive would have some decent defenses, at least on-par with the smaller T1 battleships. As it stands, Black Ops are squishier than the "tier 1" tech 1 battleships. I'd go for increasing their HP to match the tech 1 "tier 1" lineup and increasing their resists to be on-par with marauders. It's not like they can use bastion modules to go even higher like marauders can. Furthermore, Black Ops have weapon bonuses that don't make a lot of sense if they aren't supposed to be taken into combat. Their only relevant bonuses are the two Black Ops skill bonuses; the two racial battleship skill bonuses go generally unused. The Widow is somewhat unpopular among Black Ops because it has an ECM bonus instead of an agility bonus like the Sin, or a speed bonus like the Panther. But I'd suggest a new style of Black Ops: take out the weapon bonuses and replace them with jamming EWAR--it's not for combat but for defensive use, it's to help protect the valuable Black Ops ship while you get it off the field. Then make sure all 4 of them have a maneuverability bonus. It would look like this:
No one said BLOPS are not meant to be on grid and the weapon bonus gets used on all of them they make them exctremly strong to take out targets
the widow i find to be an exceptional BLOPS the ECM lets it fill a role and the weapon bonus lets it BLAP cruisers like nothing else
one of the main reasons i could not see them getting any more tank than they already have is currently tank fit and with T3 logi they are extremely hard to break
overall Solo or flown by pilots that are not proficient i can see why people think these ships are not worth their cost or that they can't hold their own in a fight. But these are some of the most powerful battleships in the game if not some of the most powerful ships. They can hold their own in a fight they can apply great amounts of DPS even to smaller targets and they can bring with them a fleet out of nowhere
Fuel block colors? Missiles for Caldari T3? Corp Stasis
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Rek Seven
Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
1990
|
Posted - 2015.09.09 07:58:06 -
[57] - Quote
Iain Cariaba wrote:Rek Seven wrote:If you guys only want them to be a gank or bridging ship, do they need the cloaked velocity bonus?
Does anyone get any use out of that bonus? It's so slow that it hardly seems useful... I figure that it is intended to get close to your target but that would require you to be waiting on grid before your target arrives. It's to get you off your safe spot while cloaked in case hostiles are probing you down. Here's a hint, if you're trying to slow boat cloaked to your target, you're using the ship wrong. *cough*jumpdrive*cough*
I understand that but I don't think that it is the entire reason for the bonus, as the panther and sins extra mobility bonuses would seem to suggests CCP intended the cloaked velocity bonus for offensive as well as defensive positioning...
With that in mind, i think the speed bonus should be greatly increased or replaced with that ability to use a prop mod while cloaked.
You sound like an idiot when you say "create content" when you mean find a fight, gank, etc... Stop it!
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Vic Jefferson
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
584
|
Posted - 2015.09.09 08:32:49 -
[58] - Quote
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:Now Black Ops don't need to ever be brought on grid, but it happens sometimes that they inadvertently find themselves in the midst of a battle.
What you describe here are any or all of the following: Really brave pilots. Really unlucky pilots. Exceptionally bad at BLOPS, can't scout or took obvious bait.
Part of the blops game is not putting yourself at risk without a good expected outcome.
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:one of the main reasons i could not see them getting any more tank than they already have is currently tank fit and with T3 logi they are extremely hard to break
This, very much this. I really don't get why people are always pointing to tank as a flaw in the current BLOPS design - they just don't understand how bad things would get if they had even half TII resists. You have the initiative, you can bring ewar, you can bring overwhelming damage, and have the element of suprise, and theoretically perfect information before you commit - those are how you should be winning with blops BS, not via your raw resists and tank outlasting an enemy. If you want to do that, bring a marauder. TII or even T1.5 resists on a BS that can take remote reps......that can do 1000+dps and jump 8ly at a time offensively or defensively? Just plain silly. Sledge and scalpel are two different tools.
That being said, I can see various buffs to Blops to make them more specialized at their task. Scan res buffs. A heating bonus that only applies for 2 minutes after they have jumped. Sensor strength buffs. Increased fatigue reduction. Less Isotope usage to make extended operations more feasible. Fitting bonuses to probe launchers. Things to make them specialized, not just straight up better than their t1 equivalents.
You have many options if you want to go for bigger targets: A)Bring more BLOPS. B)Bring more Ewar. You have your choice of every flavor! a few sensor damps with the right scripts can turn a fight. C)Bring T3 Logi D)Bring a ball of RR Stratios
Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X
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Lugh Crow-Slave
1220
|
Posted - 2015.09.09 10:50:54 -
[59] - Quote
Vic Jefferson
That being said, I can see various buffs to Blops to make them more specialized at their task. Scan res buffs. A heating bonus that only applies for 2 minutes after they have jumped. Sensor strength buffs. Increased fatigue reduction. Less Isotope usage to make extended operations more feasible. Fitting bonuses to probe launchers. Things to make them [i wrote:specialized[/i], not just straight up better than their t1 equivalents.
the scan res bonus is built into the hull if you want to take advantage of it risk a more expensive cloak or risk no cloak
the hearing bonus does peak my interest i'm not sure it would be good for the blops but perhaps a 1%per level to just give a very slight heat reduction at the start it may sound small but it would go a long way.
they do not need sensor strength buffs back to the element of surprise and having better intel your support should be able to lock down enemy e-war and you should know in advance if you need ECCM
the prob launcher reduction i also don't like as Cov ops frigs are already a rare part of blops set ups.
they do not need a fatigue reduction any more than they already have the 8ly range gives them a very large hunting area so they don't need to move to much to get in place and with proper fatigue management my group has managed well over 20 drops in a single night with no more than gaining two hours of fatigue.
they also do not need to be cheaper to jump nor a larger or bay. Again coming back to their larger jump range means fuel is spent on the actual drops and not moving the ship and even b4 this a BR was always more than enough to keep a blops fleet out all night
while i do like your approach better to the blops than some others and the heat idea is interesting i'm still standing on the side that says BLOPS don't need a rebablance at this point. There are ships out there in much more need of one and blops are so well balanced right now not just in the game as a whole but against one another that altering it may just cause problems
Fuel block colors? Missiles for Caldari T3? Corp Stasis
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Lugh Crow-Slave
1220
|
Posted - 2015.09.09 10:58:53 -
[60] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:Iain Cariaba wrote:Rek Seven wrote:If you guys only want them to be a gank or bridging ship, do they need the cloaked velocity bonus?
Does anyone get any use out of that bonus? It's so slow that it hardly seems useful... I figure that it is intended to get close to your target but that would require you to be waiting on grid before your target arrives. It's to get you off your safe spot while cloaked in case hostiles are probing you down. Here's a hint, if you're trying to slow boat cloaked to your target, you're using the ship wrong. *cough*jumpdrive*cough* I understand that but I don't think that it is the entire reason for the bonus, as the panther and sins extra mobility bonuses would seem to suggests CCP intended the cloaked velocity bonus for offensive as well as defensive positioning... With that in mind, i think the speed bonus should be greatly increased or replaced with the ability to use a prop mod while cloaked.
and that very well may be what CCPs intention was with the panther and sin and they both do it very well but what makes the blops class great is each of them excel in their own areas each bringing something different to the table
Fuel block colors? Missiles for Caldari T3? Corp Stasis
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Barrogh Habalu
Forever Winter Absolute Zero.
1052
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Posted - 2015.09.09 12:33:51 -
[61] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:i already use them in wh fleets.....
this is mosstly for lulz as t3s do it better and would still even if blops got the cov cloak Unless you give Redeemer a geddon treatment and stuff like that with others, then I suppose there will be things T3s will not do necessarily better
I don't know if I'm being serious here or what.
Future of T3 cruisers - multi-tool they aspired to be instead of sledgehammer they have become
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Lugh Crow-Slave
1220
|
Posted - 2015.09.09 17:53:40 -
[62] - Quote
Barrogh Habalu wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:i already use them in wh fleets.....
this is mosstly for lulz as t3s do it better and would still even if blops got the cov cloak Unless you give Redeemer a geddon treatment and stuff like that with others, then I suppose there will be things T3s will not do necessarily better I don't know if I'm being serious here or what.
Except the redeemer doesn't need that nor do the other blops and changing them that drastically just to have a place in an area of space that they are already gimped is not the best plan.
Fuel block colors? Missiles for Caldari T3? Corp Stasis
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Vic Jefferson
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
586
|
Posted - 2015.09.09 18:07:08 -
[63] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
the scan res bonus is built into the hull if you want to take advantage of it risk a more expensive cloak or risk no cloak
the hearing bonus does peak my interest i'm not sure it would be good for the blops but perhaps a 1%per level to just give a very slight heat reduction at the start it may sound small but it would go a long way.
they do not need sensor strength buffs; back to the element of surprise and having better intel your support should be able to lock down enemy e-war and you should know in advance if you need ECCM
the prob launcher reduction i also don't like as Cov ops frigs are already a rare part of blops set ups.
they do not need a fatigue reduction any more than they already have the 8ly range gives them a very large hunting area so they don't need to move to much to get in place and with proper fatigue management my group has managed well over 20 drops in a single night with no more than gaining two hours of fatigue.
they also do not need to be cheaper to jump nor a larger or bay. Again coming back to their larger jump range means fuel is spent on the actual drops and not moving the ship and even b4 this a BR was always more than enough to keep a blops fleet out all night
A)Scan Res Everything out there these days goes absurdly fast for its size and has extremely short align times. Even with no penalty and perhaps a slightly higher scan res, it would greatly help the bit of ambush predator to actually have some lock without wasting slots.
B)Heat Just give them a flat role bonus of no heat damage for X seconds after a jump. You have your 'Show time!' mode of tank and weapons going nuts, which is what you want.
C)Probes Again, just an idea to make them more self sufficient in case of oops. Not necessarily for hunting outright, but for finding WHs or other such stuff as part of a larger blops campaign.
D)If you want to see blops more often, make them mobile. People don't want to spend an hour and then wait an hour just to set up a BLOPS drop fatigue wise, when mobility is one of the principle strengths it should have. It doesn't. First jump is free sort of thing or some other such gimmick. Right now they aren't all that much more mobile than caps beyond the first jump. Honestly that would actually give them a defined niche back. Make it so people would want to make blops expeditions a thing, right now its just too much work and too taxing time and effort wise to move them much with fatigue the way it is. With capitals hamstrung, that should give a good niche to BLOPS, if they too weren't hamstrung.
Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X
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Lugh Crow-Slave
1220
|
Posted - 2015.09.09 18:48:43 -
[64] - Quote
Vic Jefferson wrote:
A)Scan Res Everything out there these days goes absurdly fast for its size and has extremely short align times. Even with no penalty and perhaps a slightly higher scan res, it would greatly help the bit of ambush predator to actually have some lock without wasting slots.
B)Heat Just give them a flat role bonus of no heat damage for X seconds after a jump. You have your 'Show time!' mode of tank and weapons going nuts, which is what you want.
C)Probes Again, just an idea to make them more self sufficient in case of oops. Not necessarily for hunting outright, but for finding WHs or other such stuff as part of a larger blops campaign.
D)If you want to see blops more often, make them mobile. People don't want to spend an hour and then wait an hour just to set up a BLOPS drop fatigue wise, when mobility is one of the principle strengths it should have. It doesn't. First jump is free sort of thing or some other such gimmick. Right now they aren't all that much more mobile than caps beyond the first jump. Honestly that would actually give them a defined niche back. Make it so people would want to make blops expeditions a thing, right now its just too much work and too taxing time and effort wise to move them much with fatigue the way it is. With capitals hamstrung, that should give a good niche to BLOPS, if they too weren't hamstrung.
A fitting Remote sebos on 1-2 ships and go in with a high faction cloak you will lock faster than your cruisers
you should also already have tackle these are battleships they are not meant to lock small things fast
B) this would be incredibly hard to balance and tbh is not needed
C) they don't need anything in case of "oops" these are strong ships and you have so much control over how to commit them you deserve to be punished for oops
D) these things are not hard to move and are much much more mobile than caps as they can much more safely and quickly move gate to gate as well as jump past camps and when you want a new area to hunt in WHs are plentiful to move though the cost of giving them much more of a fatigue reduction is just to high
over all very few people have given a reason why these ships need any buff or change at all i don't understand why so many think this class seems to be lacking something
Fuel block colors? Missiles for Caldari T3? Corp Stasis
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Rek Seven
Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
1990
|
Posted - 2015.09.09 18:59:54 -
[65] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: over all very few people have given a reason why these ships need any buff or change at all i don't understand why so many think this class seems to be lacking something
But you keep saying "Black ops don't NEED X" which is just your personal opinion. If anything the fact that the people asking for changes buffs indicate that Black ops do need certain changes.
Super caps don't NEED changing but due to their limited uses and consumer disatisfaction, you can be damn sure CCP are going to make changes to them.
My reason for wanting a covert cloak or Ewar bonuses or the ability to jump without a cyno is so i can use it as a solo hunter without being almost completely dependant on having a cyno alt. That is a WANT not a NEED and i'll leave the latter for CCP to figure out
You sound like an idiot when you say "create content" when you mean find a fight, gank, etc... Stop it!
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Vic Jefferson
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
587
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Posted - 2015.09.09 20:40:41 -
[66] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
A fitting Remote sebos on 1-2 ships and go in with a high faction cloak you will lock faster than your cruisers
you should also already have tackle these are battleships they are not meant to lock small things fast
B) this would be incredibly hard to balance and tbh is not needed
C) they don't need anything in case of "oops" these are strong ships and you have so much control over how to commit them you deserve to be punished for oops
D) these things are not hard to move and are much much more mobile than caps as they can much more safely and quickly move gate to gate as well as jump past camps and when you want a new area to hunt in WHs are plentiful to move though the cost of giving them much more of a fatigue reduction is just to high
over all very few people have given a reason why these ships need any buff or change at all i don't understand why so many think this class seems to be lacking something
I get the impression from your responses you don't actually blops much at all.
Remote SeBos are sort of out of the question at all. By the time you land on grid, and then lock your allies so they can lock things....most things will have gotten away. In the old BC meta, this wasn't an issue at all, but given the ~7s it takes to get on grind and active between the time cyno is lit and you get there...you don't have time to get this set up. Likewise wasting mids is a problem too, as you need those for other things. This is why it makes the most sense to roll it into the hull innately and make them actually capable of catching things.
Probes would be superb. Probe yourself into and out of WH chains, get access to regions before you light up intel and everyone docks up for fear of a hot drop.
Blops are EXTREMELY hard to move. Which again leads me to believe you do not blops much. You need to basically get everyone you are going to blops with clear on jump timers the day before, by the time you have gone 3 jumps to get to a region you want to hit, you cant drop any more. Yes they are easy to move in the sense of, farther and faster than caps, but it is still prohibitively restrictive in terms of the work you have to do to get it set up. I totally and completely get why its a bad thing for capitals to be able to drop half way across the map and be back by downtime, but blops cant even hit an adjacent region and get back before downtime reliably. Why do you think Bomber's Bar lives in Thera? Wormholes are legitimately the only way to be able to move blops far and fast enough to actually do their job, and that clearly shows the problem.
Capitals and Blops should behave entirely differently in terms of local power vs projected power. They really aren't right now. For the reduction in fatigue and distance you get, you are literally better off dropping carriers or some such.
Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X
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Lugh Crow-Slave
1220
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Posted - 2015.09.09 21:27:42 -
[67] - Quote
Vic Jefferson wrote:[quote=Lugh Crow-Slave] I get the impression from your responses you don't actually blops much at all.
Remote SeBos are sort of out of the question at all. By the time you land on grid, and then lock your allies so they can lock things....most things will have gotten away. In the old BC meta, this wasn't an issue at all, but given the ~7s it takes to get on grind and active between the time cyno is lit and you get there...you don't have time to get this set up. Likewise wasting mids is a problem too, as you need those for other things. This is why it makes the most sense to roll it into the hull innately and make them actually capable of catching things.
Probes would be superb. Probe yourself into and out of WH chains, get access to regions before you light up intel and everyone docks up for fear of a hot drop.
Blops are EXTREMELY hard to move. Which again leads me to believe you do not blops much. You need to basically get everyone you are going to blops with clear on jump timers the day before, by the time you have gone 3 jumps to get to a region you want to hit, you cant drop any more. Yes they are easy to move in the sense of, farther and faster than caps, but it is still prohibitively restrictive in terms of the work you have to do to get it set up. I totally and completely get why its a bad thing for capitals to be able to drop half way across the map and be back by downtime, but blops cant even hit an adjacent region and get back before downtime reliably. Why do you think Bomber's Bar lives in Thera? Wormholes are legitimately the only way to be able to move blops far and fast enough to actually do their job, and that clearly shows the problem.
Capitals and Blops should behave entirely differently in terms of local power vs projected power. They really aren't right now. For the reduction in fatigue and distance you get, you are literally better off dropping carriers or some such.
I blops plenty buy what i don't so is rely on the blops for the tackle nor to i jump them three regions i will use WHs to find a new hunting ground
as for making sure my fleet is clear on fatigue i suppose i just don't have that issue as we rarley use alliance bridges and only once in a blue moon use caps however the fatigue was not just to stop caps from moving but pilots as well
Fuel block colors? Missiles for Caldari T3? Corp Stasis
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Lugh Crow-Slave
1220
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Posted - 2015.09.09 21:29:44 -
[68] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: over all very few people have given a reason why these ships need any buff or change at all i don't understand why so many think this class seems to be lacking something
the fact that more people are asking for changes/buffs than not, indicate that Black ops do need certain changes.
loudest does /= most
Fuel block colors? Missiles for Caldari T3? Corp Stasis
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Lugh Crow-Slave
1220
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Posted - 2015.09.09 21:31:24 -
[69] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: over all very few people have given a reason why these ships need any buff or change at all i don't understand why so many think this class seems to be lacking something
the fact that more people are asking for changes/buffs than not, indicate that Black ops do need certain changes.
loudest does /= most
Fuel block colors? Missiles for Caldari T3? Corp Stasis
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Carebear Alternative
Forge Monster Inc.
13
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Posted - 2015.09.09 23:08:39 -
[70] - Quote
Years ago I posted a thread about BO reform after flying one in Stain for several months. Six years later it seems nothing has been fundementally changed about BO ships.
http://eve-search.com/thread/1239730-0/page/1#1
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Ersahi Kir
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
406
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Posted - 2015.09.10 00:32:01 -
[71] - Quote
unidenify wrote:probably same reason why Marauder don't have t2 resist.
reason is I don't know why
You should have seen the rage that was expressed when they were doing the tiericide for Marauders. At one point they did have tech 2 resists, but it pretty much shows why asking players what they want doesn't always work. You ask 500 people what they want ships to be, and you'll get 503 answers back.
Enjoy the thread. |
Lan Wang
V I R I I Ineluctable.
1487
|
Posted - 2015.09.10 07:21:40 -
[72] - Quote
Carebear Alternative wrote:
thats just everyone asking for cov ops cloaks, no they dont need it because jumpdrive, how would being able to warp cloak have any benefit when it can jump to cynos, most pointless idea for that ship
EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding | Digital Design
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Rek Seven
Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
1991
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Posted - 2015.09.10 08:59:58 -
[73] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:Carebear Alternative wrote: thats just everyone asking for cov ops cloaks, no they dont need it because jumpdrive, how would being able to warp cloak have any benefit when it can jump to cynos, most pointless idea for that ship
You answer your own question. The benefit is in the ability to warp cloaked. If you don't understand the benefits of warping cloaked that's your problem.
Every ship with a covert cloak can jump to a covert cyno, so your comment makes no scene. Jumping to a cyno is a completely different method of travel.
You sound like an idiot when you say "create content" when you mean find a fight, gank, etc... Stop it!
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Chihiro Chugakusei
Crimson Serpent Syndicate Heiian Conglomerate
62
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Posted - 2015.09.10 23:56:06 -
[74] - Quote
seeing as its a basically useless class of ship. yes.
Keep it up, +1
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Chance Ravinne
WiNGSPAN Delivery Services The WINGSPAN Logo Alliance
483
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Posted - 2015.09.11 00:27:01 -
[75] - Quote
Going to try to be objective here, having just trained into BOs myself, but having many BO pilots in my corporation.
When people ask for covops cloak on BOs, it's probably not because they think these ships need it for mobility or because they are hugely gimped without covops cloaking. It's probably due to one of two reasons. (again just trying to interpret, not saying it should happen)
1. These pilots trained into BO after falling in love with other ganky cloaky sneaky ships like bombers, Stratios, recons, and Proteus. They got a taste of frigate and cruiser cloaky shenanigans and want "the next thing." Black Ops feels like that thing to many players, but it is hugely different from how you fly the aforementioned ships. Covops cloak closes that gap.
2. They operate in places where the jump technology is not useful, either wormholes or hisec. For these players, saying "BO is super mobile it has jump drive" means nothing. You are telling them "BO is useless in your preferred space."
In addition to #1, Black Ops lack the ability to be used as true solo ships in the way you can use many other cloaky style gank ships. Not having a covops cloak or dscan immunity basically means your only approach option is camping one spot or jumping on a target. And jumping on a target requires at least a fleet or cyno alt.
BOs don't NEED covops cloak, but if they had this and/or dscan immunity their applications and ranges of use would be wider and more in line with the "natural" progression of sneaky gank ships players may expect. Covops would require some kind of small nerd to balance; dscan immunity may not be a big ask by comparison.
You've just read another awesome post by Chance Ravinne, CEO of EVE's #1 torpedo delivery service. Watch our misadventures on my YouTube channel: WINGSPANTT
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Lan Wang
V I R I I Ineluctable.
1503
|
Posted - 2015.09.11 07:08:39 -
[76] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:Lan Wang wrote:Carebear Alternative wrote: thats just everyone asking for cov ops cloaks, no they dont need it because jumpdrive, how would being able to warp cloak have any benefit when it can jump to cynos, most pointless idea for that ship You answer your own question. The benefit is in the ability to warp cloaked. If you don't understand the benefits of warping cloaked that's your problem. Every ship with a covert cloak can jump to a covert cyno, so your comment makes no scene. Jumping to a cyno is a completely different method of travel.
my comment makes perfect sense, it doesnt need a cloak because they dont need to warp cloaked, no, no other ship can jump to a covert cyno apart from a blops, everything else needs a blops to bridge it, there is no benefit to warping cloaked over jumping on top of your target from 8ly away
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Lan Wang
V I R I I Ineluctable.
1503
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Posted - 2015.09.11 07:17:56 -
[77] - Quote
Chance Ravinne wrote:Going to try to be objective here, having just trained into BOs myself, but having many BO pilots in my corporation.
When people ask for covops cloak on BOs, it's probably not because they think these ships need it for mobility or because they are hugely gimped without covops cloaking. It's probably due to one of two reasons. (again just trying to interpret, not saying it should happen)
1. These pilots trained into BO after falling in love with other ganky cloaky sneaky ships like bombers, Stratios, recons, and Proteus. They got a taste of frigate and cruiser cloaky shenanigans and want "the next thing." Black Ops feels like that thing to many players, but it is hugely different from how you fly the aforementioned ships. Covops cloak closes that gap.
2. They operate in places where the jump technology is not useful, either wormholes or hisec. For these players, saying "BO is super mobile it has jump drive" means nothing. You are telling them "BO is useless in your preferred space."
In addition to #1, Black Ops lack the ability to be used as true solo ships in the way you can use many other cloaky style gank ships. Not having a covops cloak or dscan immunity basically means your only approach option is camping one spot or jumping on a target. And jumping on a target requires at least a fleet or cyno alt.
BOs don't NEED covops cloak, but if they had this and/or dscan immunity their applications and ranges of use would be wider and more in line with the "natural" progression of sneaky gank ships players may expect. Covops would require some kind of small nerd to balance; dscan immunity may not be a big ask by comparison.
so really just give them more features so they are to become relevant in space where the jumpdrive cant be used, how exactly do you balance something like that?
if that is the case then they should be left alone, if you want to play with the big boys toys go to nullsec and play with them
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Rivr Luzade
Exclusion Cartel The Kadeshi
1875
|
Posted - 2015.09.11 07:42:39 -
[78] - Quote
Chance Ravinne wrote:In addition to #1, Black Ops lack the ability to be used as true solo ships in the way you can use many other cloaky style gank ships. Not having a covops cloak or dscan immunity basically means your only approach option is camping one spot or jumping on a target. And jumping on a target requires at least a fleet or cyno alt. The entire point of BLOPS is PVP (save for the Sin which is also an exceptionally good PVE ship in hostile Null sec). There is absolutely no need for them to be used "truely solo". BLOPS are meant to jump and to be used somewhere where you cannot (necessarily) go by gates and assault someone in their safe territory. You again try to change a perfectly fine working thing into something that completely removes it from its role and niche. Stop doing this!
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Rek Seven
Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
1993
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Posted - 2015.09.11 09:04:39 -
[79] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote: I also do not understand your point 2. Any cloaky camper can only truly work or cloaky attacker can only work in Low sec and Null sec where you can light a cyno and assault some careless group
I think he was perfectly clear. The strength of a covert cloak capable ship is its ability to get within attack range without being seen and you don't need a cyno for that. The only way to get a Black ops into attack range is by using a second character to light a cyno which can only be used in low sec and null sec.
If Black ops were given a covert cloak, they would: 1. Be useful in all parts of space 2. Be the logical progression in cloaky ships after covert cruisers 3. Be able to do their job of harassing an enemy in his system without the need for a cyno
What i don't understand is, if people are okay with a blackops being able to jump on you without warning via a cyno, what difference would a cloak make? If i nether your ratting system as a covert black ops, you see me on local straight away, I have to find you, warp to you, get in range of you, decloak and wait at least 5 seconds to lock you and then prey that you aren't bait and that my ****** tank can outlast you...
You sound like an idiot when you say "create content" when you mean find a fight, gank, etc... Stop it!
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Rivr Luzade
Exclusion Cartel The Kadeshi
1876
|
Posted - 2015.09.11 09:16:15 -
[80] - Quote
It would not. The point of BLOPS is that they do not need to take gates. Their entire purpose is to jump on a covert cyno to circumvent all and any passive defense that you can put up in a system. If they come through a gate, they can easily be spotted and slowed down with bubbles, which makes their entire purpose go obsolete. Your last paragraph demonstrates very clearly why BLOPS neither need a CC nor dscan immunity and why them taking gates to assault someone is completely ridiculous. Is this really that hard to understand for some people?
They also do not need to be useful in all areas of space. There is no reason for a ship with this role to be particularly useful in High sec as there is no way for them to assault targets with their particular niche role and purpose.
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Lan Wang
V I R I I Ineluctable.
1503
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Posted - 2015.09.11 09:25:16 -
[81] - Quote
Usefull in all space....sabres and hictors are not 100% useful in highsec, should we change them? capitals cant even be used in highsec, should we change that? bombers cant bomb in highsec, should we change them so that they are useful in highsec too?
That is not a valid argument, as said if you want to the cov ops progression then the progression is to get into blops and into a space where you can hot drop targets effectively just like if you want to use capitals then you need to go to low and null
EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding | Digital Design
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Rek Seven
Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
1993
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Posted - 2015.09.11 09:53:28 -
[82] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote: Your last paragraph demonstrates very clearly why BLOPS neither need a CC nor dscan immunity and why them taking gates to assault someone is completely ridiculous. Is this really that hard to understand for some people?
It seems you are the one failing to understand but that is okay, my original question doesn't require you to. But i'll ask again...
If you are okay with a blackops being able to jump on a target via a cyno warning, what difference would a covert cloak make?
Weather you feel Black ops do not need them, should only be used as fleet gank ships, should not travel via gates or only useful in null/low sec, is irrelevant to what i asked.
You sound like an idiot when you say "create content" when you mean find a fight, gank, etc... Stop it!
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Lan Wang
V I R I I Ineluctable.
1503
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Posted - 2015.09.11 09:57:42 -
[83] - Quote
it would make them near impossible to catch, the cloak right now means the ship has to be stopped before activating, warping out after a fight means you are vulnerable because you still remain on scan, cov ops cloak would take you off of scan and invisible as soon as you warp.
and its not an ignorant post you are being ignorant to assume every ship should be useful in all space.
EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding | Digital Design
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Rek Seven
Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
1993
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Posted - 2015.09.11 10:00:53 -
[84] - Quote
People catch cloaky ships all the time. The bigger the ship the easier it is to catch so we would see more covert blops ships caught that we see cloaky nulli t3 caught... so it's another mute point.
You sound like an idiot when you say "create content" when you mean find a fight, gank, etc... Stop it!
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Lan Wang
V I R I I Ineluctable.
1503
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Posted - 2015.09.11 10:17:39 -
[85] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:People catch cloaky ships all the time. The bigger the ship the easier it is to catch... so it's another mute point.
how is a ship dropping on a target via a cyno, killing it and warping out cloaked not op? currently you cant cloak your ship while moving so you mjd 100km, to then warp out, this makes you vulnerable to being scanned out, pointed and losing the ship, you're being totally ignorant.
how do you catch a blops which has cyno'd into a system with a cov ops cloak and is warping around pings? you dont because the next time you see it on scan is when its jumping out and its too late.
EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding | Digital Design
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Rek Seven
Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
1993
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Posted - 2015.09.11 10:37:12 -
[86] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote: how is a ship dropping on a target via a cyno, killing it and warping out cloaked not op?
It clearly isn't as there are lots of covert capable ships that do that right now!
It's extremely rare for capable black ops pilots to be caught when they jump to a cyno in a safe spot. Maybe there are some idiots who jump while combats and out and then make themselves even easier to probe by activating their mjd instead of warping to a bounce, but those rare idiots do not justify reasons not to do a thing.
... For every other case black ops will continue to be caught via baiting tactics or if coverts are introduced, they will probably be caught on gates and wormholes more frequently than they are now.
You sound like an idiot when you say "create content" when you mean find a fight, gank, etc... Stop it!
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Lan Wang
V I R I I Ineluctable.
1503
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Posted - 2015.09.11 10:46:59 -
[87] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:Lan Wang wrote: how is a ship dropping on a target via a cyno, killing it and warping out cloaked not op?
It clearly isn't as there are lots of covert capable ships that do that right now! It's extremely rare for capable black ops ships to be caught when they jump to a cyno in a safe spot. Maybe there are some idiots who jump while combats and then make themselves even easier to probe by activating their mjd instead of warping to a bounce... but those idiots do not justify reasons for your argument.
name 1 ship that puts out 800+ dps, can fit neuts, points, webs, mjd, afterburner, a ton of drones and 60k ehp tank can jump to a cyno on its own.
who jumps to a safe spot in a blops? i wouldnt class a blops pilot who wastes time by cynoing into a safe spot to then warp to a target who is probably already aligning to warp out capable, and its rare because thats not how you fly blops. you cyno onto the target not to a safespot!
EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding | Digital Design
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Rek Seven
Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
1993
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Posted - 2015.09.11 11:11:59 -
[88] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote: name 1 ship that puts out 800+ dps, can fit neuts, points, webs, mjd, afterburner, a ton of drones and 60k ehp tank can jump to a cyno on its own.
who jumps to a safe spot in a blops? i wouldnt class a blops pilot who wastes time by cynoing into a safe spot to then warp to a target who is probably already aligning to warp out capable, and its rare because thats not how you fly blops. you cyno onto the target not to a safespot!
You are talking complete garbage and changing your argument mate.
Firstly, you never said anything about what dps and fittings you can add, you said "can cyno, kill and warp out cloaked" and i answered you.
Secondly, you described a situation where a black op ship would jump into a system where it can be probed down. If you were not talking about a jumping to a safe as a means of travel and where talking about jumping into a fight, then your comments make no sense...
....If you jump into a fight, there will be plenty of time for someone to probe you down or simply warp to their friend in need. A ship being targeted can't cloak and if you're not targeted/pointed, you can warp/jump put anyway.
You sound like an idiot when you say "create content" when you mean find a fight, gank, etc... Stop it!
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Rek Seven
Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
1993
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Posted - 2015.09.11 11:19:09 -
[89] - Quote
One last thing... I am not blind to the fact that covert ops on a black ops ship would make it more powerful and harder to catch, and clearly CCP would need to balance the mechanics.
One possible compromise would be to simply prevent the cloaked warp ability for 5-10 minutes after a cyno. I would go further and apply that to all covert capable ships.
You sound like an idiot when you say "create content" when you mean find a fight, gank, etc... Stop it!
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Lan Wang
V I R I I Ineluctable.
1503
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Posted - 2015.09.11 11:41:28 -
[90] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:Lan Wang wrote: name 1 ship that puts out 800+ dps, can fit neuts, points, webs, mjd, afterburner, a ton of drones and 60k ehp tank can jump to a cyno on its own.
who jumps to a safe spot in a blops? i wouldnt class a blops pilot who wastes time by cynoing into a safe spot to then warp to a target who is probably already aligning to warp out capable, and its rare because thats not how you fly blops. you cyno onto the target not to a safespot!
You are talking complete garbage and changing your argument mate. Firstly, you never said anything about what dps and fittings you can add, you said "can cyno, kill and warp out cloaked" and i answered you. Secondly, you described a situation where a black op ship would jump into a system where it can be probed down. If you were not talking about a jumping to a safe as a means of travel and where talking about jumping into a fight, then your comments make no sense... ....If you jump into a fight, there will be plenty of time for someone to probe you down or simply warp to their friend in need. A ship being targeted can't cloak and if you're not targeted/pointed, you can warp/jump put anyway.
Ill simplfy this for you as you are clearly having difficulty understanding.
If you cyno into a fight and support enters system and you get away from grid, the current system means you cannot cloak till you have warped to your "safespot" and are at 0 velocity. this means as soon as you land a good prober can have the position of that safespot. leaving open to be caught. Risk
Covops cloak you can cloak while in warp, nobody will know where you land meaning you are pretty much safe, too safe. op as you are making them 99% impossible to catch.
anyway cov ops cloaks on black ops ships is a -1 for me as its pointless changing a ship to work in spaces where this ship wasnt designed to be used
EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding | Digital Design
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Mavros Pete
Abyssos
2
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Posted - 2015.09.11 11:50:03 -
[91] - Quote
The way i see it, blops are fine for now.
The "125% bonus to ship max velocity when using Cloaking Devices" would arguably work better with covops cloaks, but then Black ops would be very op.
Blops are Supplise sex!, They dont need more tank or t2 resists, usually you set up the stage , drop and hit the targets (do the mind job).
The only thing that blops could do with, is more sensor strength , like recons, less susceptible to e-war.
Marauders get t2 resists via bastion, but that has drawbacks, like 1+1 minutes not able to move or dock.
The only Black ops ship that sucks is the widow, if you want to utilize ecm, then either shield or armour tanking it, you are paper thin compared to other races, other races have the option to paper tank the ship, for tactical reasons . Widow needs some love, maybe if you want to use ecm, drop a falcon , thats its job. Give the widow some other bonus
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Rek Seven
Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
1993
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Posted - 2015.09.11 11:51:33 -
[92] - Quote
You can't cloak until you are at zero velocity?
You sound like an idiot when you say "create content" when you mean find a fight, gank, etc... Stop it!
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Lan Wang
V I R I I Ineluctable.
1503
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Posted - 2015.09.11 11:57:55 -
[93] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:You can't cloak until you are at zero velocity?
well till your out of warp which should be enough time to get a scan on your position
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Rivr Luzade
Exclusion Cartel The Kadeshi
1876
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Posted - 2015.09.11 11:59:29 -
[94] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:If you are okay with a blackops being able to jump on a target via a cyno warning, what difference would a covert cloak make? They would lose something in return. The speed bonus while cloaked, HP, more fuel consumption, less base speed, covert cynos would be inhibited by cyno jammers, you name it.
If they could warp cloaked or were immune to Dscan, they would lose something in return. BLOPS are not in the same position as Recons before they got their HP buff and Dscan immunity gifted to the Force Recons. They were in a position where T3 and HAC outshone their capabilities by miles. BLOPS, on the other hand, are right now in a position that makes them a very powerful tool to use for their role and purpose. If they, in addition to their initial assault and run capability, could also sneak around undetected in a system, they would just get to another powerlevel and lose one of their few "weaknesses" (which is one of their strengths at the same time), which requires a cut of stats on other ends. Adding COC or DI to this power can only mean that they have to give something away.
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Aliventi
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
911
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Posted - 2015.09.11 12:46:09 -
[95] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:If you are okay with a blackops being able to jump on a target via a cyno warning, what difference would a covert cloak make? It would made a world of difference. I will reference your later post as to just how much difference it would make:
Rek Seven wrote:One last thing... I am not blind to the fact that covert ops on a black ops ship would make it more powerful and harder to catch, and clearly CCP would need to balance the mechanics.
One possible compromise would be to simply prevent the cloaked warp ability for 5-10 minutes after a cyno. I would go further and apply that to all covert capable ships. You are so hell bent on getting a Covert Ops cloak on the BlOps BS that you are willing to trash many people's current play style just so you can enjoy BlOps BS in a way they were never intended to or needed to be enjoyed. BlOps BS are a T2 SPECIALIZED ship. It's specialization is the ability to jump to a cyno and to bridge fleets to a cyno. Nothing else. It isn't designed to, and never should be, be a covert ops cloaking ship. THAT IS NOT IT'S JOB/SPECIALIZATION.
Chance Ravinne wrote:Going to try to be objective here, having just trained into BOs myself, but having many BO pilots in my corporation.
When people ask for covops cloak on BOs, it's probably not because they think these ships need it for mobility or because they are hugely gimped without covops cloaking. It's probably due to one of two reasons. (again just trying to interpret, not saying it should happen)
1. These pilots trained into BO after falling in love with other ganky cloaky sneaky ships like bombers, Stratios, recons, and Proteus. They got a taste of frigate and cruiser cloaky shenanigans and want "the next thing." Black Ops feels like that thing to many players, but it is hugely different from how you fly the aforementioned ships. Covops cloak closes that gap.
2. They operate in places where the jump technology is not useful, either wormholes or hisec. For these players, saying "BO is super mobile it has jump drive" means nothing. You are telling them "BO is useless in your preferred space."
In addition to #1, Black Ops lack the ability to be used as true solo ships in the way you can use many other cloaky style gank ships. Not having a covops cloak or dscan immunity basically means your only approach option is camping one spot or jumping on a target. And jumping on a target requires at least a fleet or cyno alt.
BOs don't NEED covops cloak, but if they had this and/or dscan immunity their applications and ranges of use would be wider and more in line with the "natural" progression of sneaky gank ships players may expect. Covops would require some kind of small nerd to balance; dscan immunity may not be a big ask by comparison. Shame on those of you that are advocating changes such as these to BlOps BS for reason that Chance Ravinne brings up. Shame on those of you for advocating a ship be ruined just because a ship is specialized and other people use it in a way that you do not find useful for your play style. If you want a BS sized ship that you can go cloaky hunting in the advocate for a new ship from CCP. But do not ruin other people's fun because they use ships and enjoy playing the game in a way that you do not. I respect your play style and have no problem with you enjoying the game in certain ways. It would be nice if you did the same. |
Rek Seven
Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
1993
|
Posted - 2015.09.11 13:16:23 -
[96] - Quote
Aliventi wrote:Rek Seven wrote:If you are okay with a blackops being able to jump on a target via a cyno warning, what difference would a covert cloak make? It would made a world of difference. I will reference your later post as to just how much difference it would make: Rek Seven wrote:One last thing... I am not blind to the fact that covert ops on a black ops ship would make it more powerful and harder to catch, and clearly CCP would need to balance the mechanics.
One possible compromise would be to simply prevent the cloaked warp ability for 5-10 minutes after a cyno. I would go further and apply that to all covert capable ships. You are so hell bent on getting a Covert Ops cloak on the BlOps BS that you are willing to trash many people's current play style just so you can enjoy BlOps BS in a way they were never intended to or needed to be enjoyed. BlOps BS are a T2 SPECIALIZED ship. It's specialization is the ability to jump to a cyno and to bridge fleets to a cyno. Nothing else. It isn't designed to, and never should be, be a covert ops cloaking ship. THAT IS NOT IT'S JOB/SPECIALIZATION.
How does what i suggest "trash many people's current play styles"?
As noted in the description: Black Ops battleships are designed for infiltration and espionage behind enemy lines.
Covert black ops seems perfect for that.
You sound like an idiot when you say "create content" when you mean find a fight, gank, etc... Stop it!
|
Aliventi
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
911
|
Posted - 2015.09.11 13:42:52 -
[97] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:Aliventi wrote:Rek Seven wrote:If you are okay with a blackops being able to jump on a target via a cyno warning, what difference would a covert cloak make? It would made a world of difference. I will reference your later post as to just how much difference it would make: Rek Seven wrote:One last thing... I am not blind to the fact that covert ops on a black ops ship would make it more powerful and harder to catch, and clearly CCP would need to balance the mechanics.
One possible compromise would be to simply prevent the cloaked warp ability for 5-10 minutes after a cyno. I would go further and apply that to all covert capable ships. You are so hell bent on getting a Covert Ops cloak on the BlOps BS that you are willing to trash many people's current play style just so you can enjoy BlOps BS in a way they were never intended to or needed to be enjoyed. BlOps BS are a T2 SPECIALIZED ship. It's specialization is the ability to jump to a cyno and to bridge fleets to a cyno. Nothing else. It isn't designed to, and never should be, be a covert ops cloaking ship. THAT IS NOT IT'S JOB/SPECIALIZATION. How does what i suggest "trash many people's current play styles"? As noted in the description: Black Ops battleships are designed for infiltration and espionage behind enemy lines.Covert black ops seems perfect for that. You don't get it. You clearly don't get it. You have no problem with how BlOps BS turn out as long as you get your covert ops cloak. You are essentially looking CCP in the face and saying "Give me the Covert Ops cloak." and then handing them a golden nerf bat on a silver platter. You don't care how CCP uses that golden nerf bat on BlOps BS. To you many of the things that make BlOps viable are useless. "What do you mean you need a jump drive?" "Why do you have a cloaked velocity bonus?" "What do you mean you you have a fatigue reduction? You don't need that." All these things that make BlOps viable you don't care about because they have nothing to do with your play style. You are willing to trade the ability for BlOps to not suck just so you can go cloaky hunting. You don't care about how I use BlOps BS. You never have. It's all about you and getting what you want. You are basically saying "Who cares about the people that use BlOps BS in the way BlOps BS were designed to be used?"
The equivalent argument would be me saying "No ship in the game should warp cloaked. We need to remove covert ops cloaks from the game. Give them a cloaked velocity bonus like BlOps BS get. Who cares about the people that have fun covert cloaky hunting?" because I am a nullsec ratter that doesn't want to deal with covert cloaked hunters. It would make you furious because that is a direct attack on how you play Eve and how you have fun. (I am a PvPer, not a ratter. Just an FYI.) |
Lan Wang
V I R I I Ineluctable.
1503
|
Posted - 2015.09.11 13:49:52 -
[98] - Quote
not really great at infiltration and espionage if it has to go through a gate where a sabre can easily just stop them and destroy any element of suprise
EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding | Digital Design
|
Rek Seven
Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
1993
|
Posted - 2015.09.11 13:52:38 -
[99] - Quote
Aliventi wrote: You don't get it. You clearly don't get it. You have no problem with how BlOps BS turn out as long as you get your covert ops cloak. You are essentially looking CCP in the face and saying "Give me the Covert Ops cloak." and then handing them a golden nerf bat on a silver platter. You don't care how CCP uses that golden nerf bat on BlOps BS. To you many of the things that make BlOps viable are useless. "What do you mean you need a jump drive?" "Why do you have a cloaked velocity bonus?" "What do you mean you you have a fatigue reduction? You don't need that." All these things that make BlOps viable you don't care about because they have nothing to do with your play style. You are willing to trade the ability for BlOps to not suck just so you can go cloaky hunting. You don't care about how I use BlOps BS. You never have. It's all about you and getting what you want. You are basically saying "Who cares about the people that use BlOps BS in the way BlOps BS were designed to be used?"
The equivalent argument would be me saying "No ship in the game should warp cloaked. We need to remove covert ops cloaks from the game. Give them a cloaked velocity bonus like BlOps BS get. Who cares about the people that have fun covert cloaky hunting?" because I am a nullsec ratter that doesn't want to deal with covert cloaked hunters. It would make you furious because that is a direct attack on how you play Eve and how you have fun. (I am a PvPer, not a ratter. Just an FYI.)
When you are done ranting and sounding like a spoil toddler, perhaps you would be so kind as to answer the question...
How does what i suggest "trash many people's current play styles"?
Rek Seven wrote:One possible compromise would be to simply prevent the cloaked warp ability for 5-10 minutes after a cyno.
You sound like an idiot when you say "create content" when you mean find a fight, gank, etc... Stop it!
|
Aliventi
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
911
|
Posted - 2015.09.11 14:08:19 -
[100] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:Aliventi wrote: You don't get it. You clearly don't get it. You have no problem with how BlOps BS turn out as long as you get your covert ops cloak. You are essentially looking CCP in the face and saying "Give me the Covert Ops cloak." and then handing them a golden nerf bat on a silver platter. You don't care how CCP uses that golden nerf bat on BlOps BS. To you many of the things that make BlOps viable are useless. "What do you mean you need a jump drive?" "Why do you have a cloaked velocity bonus?" "What do you mean you you have a fatigue reduction? You don't need that." All these things that make BlOps viable you don't care about because they have nothing to do with your play style. You are willing to trade the ability for BlOps to not suck just so you can go cloaky hunting. You don't care about how I use BlOps BS. You never have. It's all about you and getting what you want. You are basically saying "Who cares about the people that use BlOps BS in the way BlOps BS were designed to be used?"
The equivalent argument would be me saying "No ship in the game should warp cloaked. We need to remove covert ops cloaks from the game. Give them a cloaked velocity bonus like BlOps BS get. Who cares about the people that have fun covert cloaky hunting?" because I am a nullsec ratter that doesn't want to deal with covert cloaked hunters. It would make you furious because that is a direct attack on how you play Eve and how you have fun. (I am a PvPer, not a ratter. Just an FYI.)
When you are done ranting and sounding like a spoil toddler, perhaps you would be so kind as to answer the question... How does what i suggest "trash many people's current play styles"? Rek Seven wrote:One possible compromise would be to simply prevent the cloaked warp ability for 5-10 minutes after a cyno. You need to learn to read. You are the spoiled toddler. My entire point was that you don't care what compensatory nerf CCP give to BlOps BS, that will likely ruin the viability of BlOps BS, as long as you get your covert ops cloak. You don't care. The play style of hundreds of pilots who enjoy BlOps BS as they are doesn't matter to you one bit. You have no problem ruining the fun of hundreds, if not thousands, of BlOps pilots so you can go cloaky hunting. That seems really self centered and awfully spoiled to me.
Your solution proves it. The way you explain how you want to use BlOps BS as a cloaky hunting ship tells me that you likely will never cyno around. You get your covert ops cloak and cloaky hunting, but us BlOps pilots are punished because we cynoed in. We get a nerf to our ability to get away, which puts our multi-billion isk ships in way more danger than it is right now, so you can be a spoiled little brat who gets to go cloaky hunting.
You don't get it. No one here is saying cloaky hunting is bad or needs a nerf. But you have no problem nerfing our enjoyment and use for BlOps BS as long as you get your way. Any nerf is alright with you. All you care about is yourself. |
|
Lan Wang
V I R I I Ineluctable.
1504
|
Posted - 2015.09.11 14:11:38 -
[101] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:Aliventi wrote: You don't get it. You clearly don't get it. You have no problem with how BlOps BS turn out as long as you get your covert ops cloak. You are essentially looking CCP in the face and saying "Give me the Covert Ops cloak." and then handing them a golden nerf bat on a silver platter. You don't care how CCP uses that golden nerf bat on BlOps BS. To you many of the things that make BlOps viable are useless. "What do you mean you need a jump drive?" "Why do you have a cloaked velocity bonus?" "What do you mean you you have a fatigue reduction? You don't need that." All these things that make BlOps viable you don't care about because they have nothing to do with your play style. You are willing to trade the ability for BlOps to not suck just so you can go cloaky hunting. You don't care about how I use BlOps BS. You never have. It's all about you and getting what you want. You are basically saying "Who cares about the people that use BlOps BS in the way BlOps BS were designed to be used?"
The equivalent argument would be me saying "No ship in the game should warp cloaked. We need to remove covert ops cloaks from the game. Give them a cloaked velocity bonus like BlOps BS get. Who cares about the people that have fun covert cloaky hunting?" because I am a nullsec ratter that doesn't want to deal with covert cloaked hunters. It would make you furious because that is a direct attack on how you play Eve and how you have fun. (I am a PvPer, not a ratter. Just an FYI.)
When you are done ranting and sounding like a spoil toddler, perhaps you would be so kind as to answer the question... How does what i suggest "trash many people's current play styles"? Rek Seven wrote:One possible compromise would be to simply prevent the cloaked warp ability for 5-10 minutes after a cyno. @ Lan Wang, again you make no sense... Why would you HAVE TO use gates? It's an additional means of travel, not a replacement for the cyno.
it can already use gates but as explained to add an additional means of travel will mean something will need to be removed, most probably the jump drive or how it works so the cov ops cloak will become viable, cov ops cloak is just a sloppy means of travel for such a niche ship
EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding | Digital Design
|
Mavros Pete
Abyssos
2
|
Posted - 2015.09.11 14:14:47 -
[102] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:
As noted in the description: Black Ops battleships are designed for infiltration and espionage behind enemy lines.
Covert black ops seems perfect for that.
Yes, hence the covert cyno that doesn't appear on overview and the cloak ability with less penalties. Anything more and you will tip the balance. Its the only Battleship platform that can be projected without employing a Titan. Not every1 has one ( i think ...:))
Another note , the jump portal generation skill reduces strontium consumption in titans, without having any effect in Blops. Maybe CCP could allow that skill to reduce the consumption of fuel for ships passing through a portal ONLY, not for jumping the actual ship. That way more ppl could join the fun
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Rek Seven
Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
1993
|
Posted - 2015.09.11 14:23:24 -
[103] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote: it can already use gates but as explained to add an additional means of travel will mean something will need to be removed, most probably the jump drive or how it works so the cov ops cloak will become viable, cov ops cloak is just a sloppy means of travel for such a niche ship
So your argument is based on the assumption that a covert cloak mean it will need to have the jump drive removed... FAIL
I have already explained why a covert ops is even less op than it is on other covert capable ships and if have even suggested a solution that address your concern about covert ops being able to escape too easily when combined with a jump drive and mjd...
I'm don't replying to your weak argument is the vain hope that we can had an intelligent discussion and meet a suitable compromise.
You sound like an idiot when you say "create content" when you mean find a fight, gank, etc... Stop it!
|
Rek Seven
Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
1993
|
Posted - 2015.09.11 14:32:28 -
[104] - Quote
Aliventi wrote:Rek Seven wrote:Rek Seven wrote:One possible compromise would be to simply prevent the cloaked warp ability for 5-10 minutes after a cyno. You need to learn to read. You are the spoiled toddler. My entire point was that you don't care what compensatory nerf CCP give to BlOps BS, that will likely ruin the viability of BlOps BS, as long as you get your covert ops cloak. You don't care. The play style of hundreds of pilots who enjoy BlOps BS as they are doesn't matter to you one bit. You have no problem ruining the fun of hundreds, if not thousands, of BlOps pilots so you can go cloaky hunting. That seems really self centered and awfully spoiled to me. Your solution proves it. The way you explain how you want to use BlOps BS as a cloaky hunting ship tells me that you likely will never cyno around. You get your covert ops cloak and cloaky hunting, but us BlOps pilots are punished because we cynoed in. We get a nerf to our ability to get away, which puts our multi-billion isk ships in way more danger than it is right now, so you can be a spoiled little brat who gets to go cloaky hunting. You don't get it. No one here is saying cloaky hunting is bad or needs a nerf. But you have no problem nerfing our enjoyment and use for BlOps BS as long as you get your way. Any nerf is alright with you. All you care about is yourself.
"wouaaa wouaaa wu wu wouaaaaaaaaaa YOU don't care!"
Seriously stop the ranting...
I think you are the one that misread. Did you thin i meant "prevent warping after cyno"? because i clearly said "prevent cloaked warping after cyno". Your style of play would be completely unaffected if this were the case.
You sound like an idiot when you say "create content" when you mean find a fight, gank, etc... Stop it!
|
Aliventi
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
911
|
Posted - 2015.09.11 14:37:41 -
[105] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:Aliventi wrote:Rek Seven wrote:Rek Seven wrote:One possible compromise would be to simply prevent the cloaked warp ability for 5-10 minutes after a cyno. You need to learn to read. You are the spoiled toddler. My entire point was that you don't care what compensatory nerf CCP give to BlOps BS, that will likely ruin the viability of BlOps BS, as long as you get your covert ops cloak. You don't care. The play style of hundreds of pilots who enjoy BlOps BS as they are doesn't matter to you one bit. You have no problem ruining the fun of hundreds, if not thousands, of BlOps pilots so you can go cloaky hunting. That seems really self centered and awfully spoiled to me. Your solution proves it. The way you explain how you want to use BlOps BS as a cloaky hunting ship tells me that you likely will never cyno around. You get your covert ops cloak and cloaky hunting, but us BlOps pilots are punished because we cynoed in. We get a nerf to our ability to get away, which puts our multi-billion isk ships in way more danger than it is right now, so you can be a spoiled little brat who gets to go cloaky hunting. You don't get it. No one here is saying cloaky hunting is bad or needs a nerf. But you have no problem nerfing our enjoyment and use for BlOps BS as long as you get your way. Any nerf is alright with you. All you care about is yourself. "wouaaa wouaaa wu wu wouaaaaaaaaaa YOU don't care!" Seriously stop the ranting... I think you are the one that misread. Did you thin i meant "prevent warping after cyno"? because i clearly said "prevent cloaked warping after cyno". Your style of play would be completely unaffected if this were the case. You just don't get it. You see it as ranting but have no competent argument against what I am saying. Which could be interpreted as you agreeing with me. You heard it here first: Rek Seven doesn't care about BlOps pilots play style and how we have fun. All he cares about is getting his way no matter the cost to other players fun and enjoyment of Eve.
I never interpreted what you said as preventing warp after cynoing in. You still don't understand how important the cloaked velocity bonus is to the survive-ability of BlOps BS. Until you understand that you will never see just how massive of a nerf it is that you are proposing. Of couse it a nerf you will never have to deal with because you won't ever cyno around. How convenient is that.... |
Rek Seven
Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
1993
|
Posted - 2015.09.11 14:42:09 -
[106] - Quote
Dude what are you talking about?
Who who said the cloaked velocity bonus would be removed?
How would your style of play be changed if other people used blops to warp cloaked?
I assume your objection is based on the idea that a bonus would need to be removed to accommodate to cloak warp.. What is your basis for this?
You sound like an idiot when you say "create content" when you mean find a fight, gank, etc... Stop it!
|
Lan Wang
V I R I I Ineluctable.
1505
|
Posted - 2015.09.11 14:42:51 -
[107] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:Lan Wang wrote: it can already use gates but as explained to add an additional means of travel will mean something will need to be removed, most probably the jump drive or how it works so the cov ops cloak will become viable, cov ops cloak is just a sloppy means of travel for such a niche ship
So your argument is based on the assumption that a covert cloak mean it will need to have the jump drive removed... FAIL I have already explained why a covert ops is even less op than it is on other covert capable ships and I have even suggested a solution that address your concern about covert ops being able to escape too easily when combined with a jump drive and mjd... I'm don't replying to your weak argument is the vain hope that we can had an intelligent discussion and meet a suitable compromise.
you are the one who assumes they should be made to take gates.
Rek Seven wrote:Their align time is longer, making them easier to catch on gates
if you read what i said, i said removed or changed, its been explained plenty of times why a cov ops cloak is not needed you just refuse to accept it because it doesnt align with your playstyle
EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding | Digital Design
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Rek Seven
Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
1993
|
Posted - 2015.09.11 14:44:50 -
[108] - Quote
Please show where is said SHOULD be made to take gates. And then tell me who you are to say what is NEEDED
You sound like an idiot when you say "create content" when you mean find a fight, gank, etc... Stop it!
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Aliventi
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
911
|
Posted - 2015.09.11 14:54:07 -
[109] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:Dude what are you talking about?
Who who said the cloaked velocity bonus would be removed?
How would your style of play be changed if other people used blops to warp cloaked?
I assume your objection is based on the idea that a bonus would need to be removed to accommodate to cloak warp.. What is your basis for this? Because if you don't remove the cloaked velocity bonus I will be going 731m/s cloaked in a double 1600mm plated Redeemer with no prop mod going. If I turn on my MWD and hit my cloak I will be going ~4.5km/s cloaked. You can't tell me that CCP is going to be okay with that. The cloaked velocity bonus works because non-covert ops cloaks have a velocity penalty. If you give me a cloaked velocity bonus (even a nerfed bonus) with a covert ops cloak either it will be broken without a prop mod, or with a prop mod. It may even be broken with both.
My play style will get a nerf. There is no way CCP is going to let BlOps BS get a covert ops cloak without a compensatory nerf. You seem pretty fine with whatever that nerf may be. I am not because that nerf will affect how effective I am in combat. BlOps just need to be adjusted stats wise and have some bonuses changed around. They don't need significant buffs or nerf.
If you want a cloaky hunting ship go complaint to CCP to fix the Nestor. Don't mess with BlOps. |
Mavros Pete
Abyssos
4
|
Posted - 2015.09.11 14:56:44 -
[110] - Quote
Give Blops mini doomday devices, like titans (utilizing same skill). Once you fire it, you do an xyz amount of dps but cannot move for 5 minutes. No need for a skill to be monopolized by 1 ship.
CCP GIVE US DOOMSDAY CAPABILITY !!!! Now we will hunt supers with Blops \o/ , a whole armada of them. Unless ofc you opt for old school DD on blops, damaging each other in the process .
That would be fun...
|
|
Rek Seven
Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
1993
|
Posted - 2015.09.11 15:02:49 -
[111] - Quote
Aliventi wrote: Because if you don't remove the cloaked velocity bonus I will be going 731m/s cloaked in a double 1600mm plated Redeemer with no prop mod going. If I turn on my MWD and hit my cloak I will be going ~4.5km/s cloaked.
You should have just said that from the start, then i would have counted with - simply change the % of the cloaked velocity bonus so that a Blops with a covert cloak can only go as fast as the current blops with a regular cloak.
Issue resolved. Feature approved!
You sound like an idiot when you say "create content" when you mean find a fight, gank, etc... Stop it!
|
Lan Wang
V I R I I Ineluctable.
1505
|
Posted - 2015.09.11 15:08:17 -
[112] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:Please show where is said SHOULD be made to take gates. And then tell me who you are to say what is NEEDED
I dont think they need anything...
Lan Wang wrote:Rek Seven wrote:So you think they are perfect the way they are? I dont see an issue with them tbh
you want them to take gates so they can be killed (see my last quote), you want to use a blops so you can hunt, how else do hunt in blops with a covert ops cloak without taking gates?
Needs and wants, this thread is about what they need to balance them not what you "want " them to do to make them more useful to your playstyle, adding more features is not balancing
Rek Seven wrote:My reason for wanting a covert cloak or Ewar bonuses or the ability to jump without a cyno is so i can use it as a solo hunter without being almost completely dependant on having a cyno alt. That is a WANT not a NEED and i'll leave the latter for CCP to figure out
Solo hunter implies you will use gates, because using a jumpdrive causes fatigue and thats just a pretty useless hunter
Rek Seven wrote:the fact that more people are asking for changes/buffs than not, indicate that Black ops do need certain changes.
which you sort of assume they need a cov ops cloak so they can be useful in all areas of space, (HS + WH)
EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding | Digital Design
|
Obadiah Giaourtakos
Abyssos
7
|
Posted - 2015.09.11 15:16:01 -
[113] - Quote
Mavros Pete wrote:Give Blops mini doomday devices, like titans (utilizing same skill). Once you fire it, you do an xyz amount of dps but cannot move for 5 minutes. No need for a skill to be monopolized by 1 ship. CCP GIVE US DOOMSDAY CAPABILITY !!!! Now we will hunt supers with Blops \o/ , a whole armada of them. Unless ofc you opt for old school DD on blops, damaging each other in the process . That would be fun...
I support this, always a delight to hear that Mavros Pete had another novel idea, good job son....... now go back to sleep. |
Aliventi
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
912
|
Posted - 2015.09.11 15:17:05 -
[114] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:Aliventi wrote: Because if you don't remove the cloaked velocity bonus I will be going 731m/s cloaked in a double 1600mm plated Redeemer with no prop mod going. If I turn on my MWD and hit my cloak I will be going ~4.5km/s cloaked.
You should have just said that from the start, then i would have counted with - simply change the % of the cloaked velocity bonus so that a Blops with a covert cloak can only go as fast as the current blops with a regular cloak. (Faction cloaks be damned) Issue resolved. Feature approved! No not at all. You would have to give me something on the order of a ~56% cloaked velocity bonus. And you still, yet again, are ignoring the fact that I will have to take a nerf that I neither want nor need to my play style so you can go cloaky hunting. There is no nerf that is worth that. If you want a cloaky hunting ship then go ask for one. Don't ruin my enjoyment and play style. I am not ruining yours. |
Rek Seven
Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
1993
|
Posted - 2015.09.11 15:37:16 -
[115] - Quote
To anyone unaware, the quotes from the guy above are being posted out of context and what i actually said concerning Blops ballance in relation to other covert ships was this:
Rek Seven wrote: when you compare a cover black ops to all other covert combat ships, it would fit in nicely.
DPS would only be a little more than a T3 or stratios
Their tank and scan res are lower than a t3
Their align time is longer, making them easier to catch on gates
As a wormholer, i often camp a small number of systems for a long time using a covert ops capable ship. Successfully locating and killing the target without the use of combat probes would highly ineffective without a cloak combined with the d-scan tool.
Now if black ops had the ability to warp cloaked, it would be less effective at this task and it would be easier for hostiles to catch me on a wormhole (or gate). That and the weaknesses i mentioned in my quote, balance the ability to fit heavy neuts and a MJD (the only advantage) in my mind.
However, for K-space operations, I have already acknowledged that the ability to cyno into a system and immediately be able to warp cloaked might be considered OP. As suggested in my previous posts, game mechanics can be implemented to allay this fear or altered to ensure that the status quo for black ops activities are unaffected.
I don't think i can explain my position any better or reasonable than that.
You sound like an idiot when you say "create content" when you mean find a fight, gank, etc... Stop it!
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Aliventi
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
912
|
Posted - 2015.09.11 15:59:28 -
[116] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:To anyone unaware, the quotes from the guy above are being posted out of context and what i actually said concerning Blops ballance in relation to other covert ships was this: Rek Seven wrote: when you compare a cover black ops to all other covert combat ships, it would fit in nicely.
DPS would only be a little more than a T3 or stratios
Their tank and scan res are lower than a t3
Their align time is longer, making them easier to catch on gates As a wormholer, i often camp a small number of systems for a long time using a covert ops capable ship. Successfully locating and killing the target without the use of combat probes would highly ineffective without a cloak combined with the d-scan tool. Now if black ops had the ability to warp cloaked, it would be less effective at this task and it would be easier for hostiles to catch me on a wormhole (or gate). That and the weaknesses i mentioned in my quote, balance the ability to fit heavy neuts and a MJD (the only advantage) in my mind. However, for K-space operations, I have already acknowledged that the ability to cyno into a system and immediately be able to warp cloaked might be considered OP. As suggested in my previous posts, game mechanics can be implemented to allay this fear or altered to ensure that the status quo for black ops activities are unaffected. I don't think i can explain my position any better or reasonable than that. Look, BlOps are not what you are looking for. What your post tells me is that you see them as this magical hope for your dreams of a cloaky warping BS. They aren't that. They are not combat ships in the way that you want them to be. When you take the whole package it is a "barely there" ship class. It's pretty clear you have no real experience with them because you don't understand that the compensatory nerf for the covert cloak will turn them for just "barely usable" to "trash" really quickly. These are not solo ships. They are not really capable of, nor designed to, solo much of anything. What makes BlOps powerful is they you have bombers, recons, and BlOps. The magic comes from the bombers and recons applying enough EWAR that your BlOps BS doesn't get killed. Another way to use BlOps is to jump in enough BlOps BS that you kill the target before it can kill one of your BlOps BS. I would never jump in my BlOps BS solo. Its strength comes from other ships on the field giving it the freedom to operate at low to no risk. You aren't going to have that when you solo.
I am totally down with you having a cloaky hunting BS. I have no problem with that. BlOps are not what you are looking for. Make a convincing argument for CCP to make the Nestor worth using. CCP is totally willing to listen to well made arguments if you are persistent in advocating for a change. |
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