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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 7 post(s) |
Fourteen Maken
Omega Industry Inc. The Ditanian Alliance
201
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Posted - 2015.09.27 18:42:50 -
[571] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:Devil Seven wrote:Can you look at giving the ferox a 5th low slot it will give it more fitting options and make it more useful in the proposed update otherwise the rest of them look good just not sure how I like the ferox atm looks like a huge nerf to the thing 7/6/5 is a good number too the problem the ferox has and has always had is that it has too compete with the drake for usage, and ofc caldari being mainly missile based that has always been against it, only recent buffs too rails has made it useful, these changes still don't really bring it out of the drakes shadow especially with the drake having nearly the same range as a raven now, some things too help ferox too be more useful - lower sig and more mobility - 5th lowslot for a high for greater options - nerf HAM range too 10km instead of its 20km range it shares with torps - drake could lose its resist bonus too for some tracking - myrmidon in a shield dps config also outdoes a ferox for dps and only slightly lower than a shield dps brutix.
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elitatwo
Eve Minions The-Company
853
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Posted - 2015.09.27 21:39:22 -
[572] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:..a drake with lv5 skills can get 30km range with javs FACT..
On your fitting screen. And only if your Drake is not moving and the thing it is shooting at isn't moving too. Then and only then you get ~29km range.
Missile range does not work like turrets. Turret range is always true.
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Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
1197
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Posted - 2015.09.27 21:47:03 -
[573] - Quote
elitatwo wrote:Harvey James wrote:..a drake with lv5 skills can get 30km range with javs FACT.. On your fitting screen. And only if your Drake is not moving and the thing it is shooting at isn't moving too. Then and only then you get ~29km range. Missile range does not work like turrets. Turret range is always true. The End.
well with the 25% buff drake defo will do 30km always
T3's need to be versatile not have T2 resists, OP dps and tank obsoleting T2 ships entirely.
ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name, remove drone assist, nerf sentries, -3 highslots for droneboats
Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
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Bayou
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1
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Posted - 2015.09.27 23:19:09 -
[574] - Quote
HAM's does crap dps without applying webs to your taget so saying 30km range is op is just dumb. |
Vailen Sere
the oasis group TOG - The Older Gamers Alliance
9
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Posted - 2015.09.27 23:53:43 -
[575] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:elitatwo wrote:Harvey James wrote:...read the post properly, i mentioned HAM's NOT cruise missiles, and you have clearly not looked at brutix/myrm shield fits compared too what the ferox shield tank will be. You and your nerfs all the time. I say increase torpedo range to 50km and nerf bombers accordingly. And for christ sake give them full application. 50km torps is just madness, range on a jav raven would be crazy, nerfs are just necessary sometimes for balance (looks at T3's), better than powercreep which is what the navy drake kind of feels like HAM's having 16km range with rage is just OP, 30km with javelin is also OP and better than scorch .. range being the supposed strong point of lasers, but conflag doing 10km is just lame compared, then you only need too look at auto's and blasters too see how strong that range actually is on HAM's. On which ships? I saw alot of boosts there to Optimal ranges.. are they currently balanced out or are you looking for a gunnery superiority over missiles (That do not crit?)
Your missing comparative was mentioned above. gunnery ranges are set, and the only way to outrun guns is to get out of range, whereas to avoid missiles, you simply move fast enough and either 1) they do not hit or 2) you mitigate 40% of the damage.
That's where the missile velocity increase comes into play. |
Syn Shi
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
195
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Posted - 2015.09.28 00:44:17 -
[576] - Quote
Switch the drone bandwidth of the Myrmidon and the Ishtar. |
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
1260
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Posted - 2015.09.28 14:12:15 -
[577] - Quote
elitatwo wrote:Harvey James wrote:..a drake with lv5 skills can get 30km range with javs FACT.. On your fitting screen. And only if your Drake is not moving and the thing it is shooting at isn't moving too. Then and only then you get ~29km range. Missile range does not work like turrets. Turret range is always true. The End.
I've been orbiting a Domi's sentries with my Tengu at 1km, I ran under the guns of T3s and out of reach of harbingers, always hitting for 610dps with HAMs. Not only do missiles get awesome damage at range - they also got it regardless of your own movement.
It's a miracle I never roll into your hole tho. |
Shade Alidiana
PROSPERO Corporation MinTek Conglomerate
77
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Posted - 2015.09.28 15:25:15 -
[578] - Quote
Stitch Kaneland wrote:Shade Alidiana wrote:Just a question. Why do you call it a major buff for navy hurri? Alpha is good but rof is like.. really useful. Why not 10% rof instead, if you can't keep both?
(5% rof and damage wouldn't look out of order in one line and/or as one bonus with some of the other ships out there..) When you have an alpha doctrine, or like me, just want to fly around blapping with arty, the 10% dmg/tracking is well worth the sacrifice of RoF. 3-4k alpha with tracking similar to scorch, at least with drop booster. Fleet cane was compensated slightly with a bigger drone bay to make up for the "DPS" loss, but the raw damage is actually a buff. I'm good with an overall dps loss, minny need an arty ship that actually works, but isn't god awfully OP like the svipul.
Aren't similar features already included in Sleipnir? Which isn't much more expensive but is tankier as well. I want some difference in my ships :) |
Lady Rift
What Shall We Call It
222
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Posted - 2015.09.28 15:35:39 -
[579] - Quote
elitatwo wrote:Harvey James wrote:elitatwo wrote:Harvey James wrote:...read the post properly, i mentioned HAM's NOT cruise missiles, and you have clearly not looked at brutix/myrm shield fits compared too what the ferox shield tank will be. You and your nerfs all the time. I say increase torpedo range to 50km and nerf bombers accordingly. And for christ sake give them full application. 50km torps is just madness, range on a jav raven would be crazy, nerfs are just necessary sometimes for balance (looks at T3's), better than powercreep which is what the navy drake kind of feels like HAM's having 16km range with rage is just OP, 30km with javelin is also OP and better than scorch .. range being the supposed strong point of lasers, but conflag doing 10km is just lame compared, then you only need too look at auto's and blasters too see how strong that range actually is on HAM's. You do know that missile range is very relative right? And even javelin missiles have trouble shooting smaller stuff. The explosion velocity on hams is just terrible. I tell you what, you make a video where you show me without doubt and reproducible where heavy assault missiles will have 30km range and I give you one million isk.
sac has 45km range with HAM jav's |
Denson022
Defiance LLC
14
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Posted - 2015.09.28 15:36:43 -
[580] - Quote
In general i like the way these changes have been done.
The Ferox got the biggest buff IMHO. The new 6 mid slot layout gives more flexibility.
In the other hand the Cyclone did not received any game breaking changes. Still no 6th mid slot => If you go XLASB + Invul you do not have the cap booster to feed the neuts/MWD, but you have the Web.
If you go old school active tank + cap booster you cant fit a (mandatory) Web in order to get decent HAM damage application. The new missile enhancer doesn't help much.
It's DPS is low due to having only 5 bonused hardpoints. As stated earlier, drones represent 20-25 % of total DPS.
Compared to the Cyclone the Ferox has gained much more appeal. It lost it's resist bonus but has the DPS the Cyclone is lacking and with a dual web setup will murder frigs , dessies and cruisers given the damage projection bonus.
CCP , you had the opportunituy to bring back the CBC king of speed crown back to the cyclone. I hoped it could at least fulfill the role of a tackle / cruiser hunter... Get in range, scram, web, neut to death. |
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Stitch Kaneland
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
564
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Posted - 2015.09.28 16:12:19 -
[581] - Quote
Shade Alidiana wrote:Stitch Kaneland wrote:Shade Alidiana wrote:Just a question. Why do you call it a major buff for navy hurri? Alpha is good but rof is like.. really useful. Why not 10% rof instead, if you can't keep both?
(5% rof and damage wouldn't look out of order in one line and/or as one bonus with some of the other ships out there..) When you have an alpha doctrine, or like me, just want to fly around blapping with arty, the 10% dmg/tracking is well worth the sacrifice of RoF. 3-4k alpha with tracking similar to scorch, at least with drop booster. Fleet cane was compensated slightly with a bigger drone bay to make up for the "DPS" loss, but the raw damage is actually a buff. I'm good with an overall dps loss, minny need an arty ship that actually works, but isn't god awfully OP like the svipul. Aren't similar features already included in Sleipnir? Which isn't much more expensive but is tankier as well. I want some difference in my ships :)
Not really. Sleip is 300m and has loads of training time behind it to sit in one. Not to mention needing CS5 to get the max alpha. Sleip also doesnt have the 50% tracking bonus which is extremely useful. For reference, on the fleet cane, with a metastasis rig, TE and sabot/quake you are approaching scorch tracking but with 3k vollies. Add a drop booster and you're there. Fleet cane is also faster/agile than sleip now, making it a better kiter.
Sleip is a better brawler and is good with arty, but nowhere as easy to sit in, and squeezing arty, XLASB, neuts and prop can be challenging. HFI will be a fun easy to fly, relatively cheap arty ship.
The tracking bonus alone is enough of a difference for more. Plus the hybrid optimal/falloff bonus which will make sabot/depleted uranium very nice to use.
Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role
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elitatwo
Eve Minions The-Company
860
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Posted - 2015.09.28 21:08:36 -
[582] - Quote
Lloyd Roses wrote:I've been orbiting a Domi's sentries with my Tengu at 1km, I ran under the guns of T3s and out of reach of harbingers, always hitting for 610dps with HAMs. Not only do missiles get awesome damage at range - they also got it regardless of your own movement.
It's a miracle I never roll into your hole tho.
That is what you want to do with hams. But in order to do that you need to pin your target first, which you want to do too. Now imagine that you are chasing a svipul with your ham Drake or Tengu. Your ham range will be 50% of the maximum at best.
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Iyacia Cyric'ai
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
170
|
Posted - 2015.09.29 05:43:31 -
[583] - Quote
elitatwo wrote:Lloyd Roses wrote:I've been orbiting a Domi's sentries with my Tengu at 1km, I ran under the guns of T3s and out of reach of harbingers, always hitting for 610dps with HAMs. Not only do missiles get awesome damage at range - they also got it regardless of your own movement.
It's a miracle I never roll into your hole tho. That is what you want to do with hams. But in order to do that you need to pin your target first, which you want to do too. Now imagine that you are chasing a svipul with your ham Drake or Tengu. Your ham range will be 50% of the maximum at best. I don't see a problem with this. Use rapid light missiles if you want to damage Svipuls without tackling them. |
Iyacia Cyric'ai
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
170
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Posted - 2015.09.29 05:57:44 -
[584] - Quote
Denson022 wrote:In general i like the way these changes have been done.
The Ferox got the biggest buff IMHO. The new 6 mid slot layout gives more flexibility.
In the other hand the Cyclone did not received any game breaking changes. Still no 6th mid slot => If you go XLASB + Invul you do not have the cap booster to feed the neuts/MWD, but you have the Web.
If you go old school active tank + cap booster you cant fit a (mandatory) Web in order to get decent HAM damage application. The new missile enhancer doesn't help much.
It's DPS is low due to having only 5 bonused hardpoints. As stated earlier, drones represent 20-25 % of total DPS.
Compared to the Cyclone the Ferox has gained much more appeal. It lost it's resist bonus but has the DPS the Cyclone is lacking and with a dual web setup will murder frigs , dessies and cruisers given the damage projection bonus.
CCP , you had the opportunituy to bring back the CBC king of speed crown back to the cyclone. I hoped it could at least fulfill the role of a tackle / cruiser hunter... Get in range, scram, web, neut to death. Cyclones hunt cruisers and dessies (t1 and t2) fine. Web is more about applying damage to t3ds and frigates. |
Devil Seven
PizzaCsinta Legio immortales CXCI
5
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Posted - 2015.09.29 06:03:06 -
[585] - Quote
elitatwo wrote:Devil Seven wrote:Can you look at giving the ferox a 5th low slot it will give it more fitting options and make it more useful in the proposed update otherwise the rest of them look good just not sure how I like the ferox atm looks like a huge nerf to the thing 7/6/5 is a good number too You would have to remove one slot from somewhere else for that. With your layout the Ferox would one more slot that all the other battlcruisers. As far as I have seen the Ferox is okay.
You really don't have to remove a slot from somewhere but anyways atm the way it will be the ferox is so out classed by the other BCs it already is a unfavorable ship for most the 7/6/5 would have more useful uses with the bonuses they have planned with the new bonuses it will be a sniper and a weak one at that as the attack bc already has that role and is better at it |
Iyacia Cyric'ai
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
170
|
Posted - 2015.09.29 09:46:45 -
[586] - Quote
Devil Seven wrote:elitatwo wrote:Devil Seven wrote:Can you look at giving the ferox a 5th low slot it will give it more fitting options and make it more useful in the proposed update otherwise the rest of them look good just not sure how I like the ferox atm looks like a huge nerf to the thing 7/6/5 is a good number too You would have to remove one slot from somewhere else for that. With your layout the Ferox would one more slot that all the other battlcruisers. As far as I have seen the Ferox is okay. You really don't have to remove a slot from somewhere but anyways atm the way it will be the ferox is so out classed by the other BCs it already is a unfavorable ship for most the 7/6/5 would have more useful uses with the bonuses they have planned with the new bonuses it will be a sniper and a weak one at that as the attack bc already has that role and is better at it That's a fairly ridiculous statement. Ferox is already used in Rail doctrines, the buffs only help with that. Also the additional mid helps gives it more control for brawling so it's a solid buff for brawling fits as well. The only thing adding an extra low will do is encourage people to armor fit it and make it an OP control orientated brawler with 6 utility mids (mwd + double web + scram + MJD + cap booster). |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2281
|
Posted - 2015.09.29 14:14:24 -
[587] - Quote
Devil Seven wrote:elitatwo wrote:Devil Seven wrote:Can you look at giving the ferox a 5th low slot it will give it more fitting options and make it more useful in the proposed update otherwise the rest of them look good just not sure how I like the ferox atm looks like a huge nerf to the thing 7/6/5 is a good number too You would have to remove one slot from somewhere else for that. With your layout the Ferox would one more slot that all the other battlcruisers. As far as I have seen the Ferox is okay. You really don't have to remove a slot from somewhere but anyways atm the way it will be the ferox is so out classed by the other BCs it already is a unfavorable ship for most the 7/6/5 would have more useful uses with the bonuses they have planned with the new bonuses it will be a sniper and a weak one at that as the attack bc already has that role and is better at it
BC are supposed to have 17 slots (apply drone ship -1 slots when applicable), not 18 so yes the ferox would have to lose either a high or a mid to get an extra low. |
Azazel The Misanthrope
Proioxis Assault Force Exodus.
73
|
Posted - 2015.09.29 15:54:00 -
[588] - Quote
Arkon Olacar wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:I know some players will be dissapointed that the damage bonus continues to be restricted to kinetic, but we do believe that damage specific bonuses are a useful tool for creating interesting distinctions between ships and we have no plans to phase them out. I'm not sure how to make this more clearcut. This is bad.
Stop doing this.
Please.
I think if this were to happen, Caldari missile ships would end up outclassing other missile ships outright unless they were then rebalanced to be more like their competitors damage wise. |
Stitch Kaneland
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
567
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Posted - 2015.09.29 16:20:45 -
[589] - Quote
Changes are live my friends. Go forth and rain destruction on the cruiser meta. Bonus points if you kill some orthrus'.
Should be fun.
Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role
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Uriam Khanid
New Machinarium Corporation
12
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Posted - 2015.09.29 22:03:06 -
[590] - Quote
First impression not good. Drake and Cane replaced by Navy Drake and Fleet Cane. basicly that all. Ships with drone max. velocity - well, bad english here as class BC are still sucks. especially against HAC and navy cruisers fix Cyclone, please
proposal: may be it will be good to mess CBC and ABC. example: Harbinger - 5H/4M/6L (4 large turrets) and role bonus - 50% tracking |
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Uriam Khanid
New Machinarium Corporation
12
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Posted - 2015.09.29 22:11:21 -
[591] - Quote
Stitch Kaneland wrote:Changes are live my friends. Go forth and rain destruction on the cruiser meta. Bonus points if you kill some orthrus'.
Should be fun.
simply do not understand your enthusiasm. your proposal was good, but it looks like BC also need some dps, especially against HAC's after 1-3 month everything will be same as before Vanguard |
Relyt Remarc
Jarlhettur's Drop
0
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Posted - 2015.09.29 22:25:33 -
[592] - Quote
Captain Megabyte wrote:Id really like to see the Caldari Naga changed to a Cruise missile ship/
i agree. more along the lines of being able to use cruise/ torpedo launchers and rapid heavy launchers though. you know, sticking with caldari doctrines. |
Iyacia Cyric'ai
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
170
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Posted - 2015.09.29 23:16:09 -
[593] - Quote
Uriam Khanid wrote:First impression not good. Drake and Cane replaced by Navy Drake and Fleet Cane. basicly that all. Ships with drone max. velocity - well, bad english here as class BC are still sucks. especially against HAC and navy cruisers fix Cyclone, please
proposal: may be it will be good to mess CBC and ABC. example: Harbinger - 5H/4M/6L (4 large turrets) and role bonus - 50% tracking That's a terrible giant nerf to the Harbinger. No. Just No. Use an Oracle if you want mobility and large lasers.
Navy BCs are 4 times the cost of the standard BCs. The standard Hurricane does more raw DPS than the Fleet Cane, the Fleet Issue does more alpha and tracks better. It works. Have you even tried using these ships? Same with the Drake, the standard drake does more damage than the Navy Drake when using kinetic missiles. The Navy Drake applies the damage better and is more agile. All the BCs are much faster as well and the Cyclone can get over 2k with some heat. The changes are great. |
Baali Tekitsu
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
913
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Posted - 2015.09.29 23:34:59 -
[594] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Reserved for FAQ
RIP
RATE LIKE SUBSCRIBE
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Stitch Kaneland
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
569
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Posted - 2015.09.29 23:56:55 -
[595] - Quote
Uriam Khanid wrote:Stitch Kaneland wrote:Changes are live my friends. Go forth and rain destruction on the cruiser meta. Bonus points if you kill some orthrus'.
Should be fun. simply do not understand your enthusiasm. your proposal was good, but it looks like BC also need some dps, especially against HAC's after 1-3 month everything will be same as before Vanguard
How so? Drake can do 630dps cold with faction and 750 with rage. Harb does 700dps with quad lights. Cane does roughly 600 with acs and 550 with arty. Brutix is 800-1k depending on fit. Myrm and proph are alittle light but they can get huge tanks. Only a deimos could rival those numbers. Deimos doesnt have the utility of a BC though. Dps has always been fine, its the application thats been the issue, which the projection buffs will fix.
Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role
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Rekt Zero
State War Academy Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2015.09.30 10:43:01 -
[596] - Quote
Pretty sure drake is popular because of the tank, the dps is laughable at best. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2548
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Posted - 2015.09.30 11:42:36 -
[597] - Quote
Stitch Kaneland wrote: How so? Drake can do 630dps cold with faction and 750 with rage. Harb does 700dps with quad lights. Cane does roughly 600 with acs and 550 with arty. Brutix is 800-1k depending on fit. Myrm and proph are alittle light but they can get huge tanks. Only a deimos could rival those numbers. Deimos doesnt have the utility of a BC though. Dps has always been fine, its the application thats been the issue, which the projection buffs will fix.
I'm guessing their argument is because HAC's have better resists that a HAC vs BC actually does more effective damage once the higher average resists are taken into account. It's a tough one to fully quantify especially taking into account we are talking T2 vs T1 in these cases, since the Command Ships did not get the improvement. |
Stitch Kaneland
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
569
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Posted - 2015.09.30 12:51:11 -
[598] - Quote
Rekt Zero wrote:Pretty sure drake is popular because of the tank, the dps is laughable at best.
Not the ships fault you don't know how to use it effectively.
Nevyn Auscent wrote:I'm guessing their argument is because HAC's have better resists that a HAC vs BC actually does more effective damage once the higher average resists are taken into account. It's a tough one to fully quantify especially taking into account we are talking T2 vs T1 in these cases, since the Command Ships did not get the improvement.
In what I quoted, it was mentioned they needed more dps, I think the dps is fine on the BC's, most of them are either on par with a HAC, or quite a bit higher (depending on fit).
Fleet cane has more dps with artillery than Muninn, and more dps with a/c's than vagabond. Brutix does more dps than deimos, drake does similar dps of a cerb, but can sport a better tank. So seems to be working as intended.
Yea, there is sig/speed and other things to consider, but its not like BC's are worthless, you'll just need to work harder for the kill. Even with MWD sig reduction, proper piloting and maintaining transversal will still allow you to hit a HAC just fine. I've yet to see a HAC that can fit an MJD.
Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role
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Fourteen Maken
Omega Industry Inc. The Ditanian Alliance
201
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Posted - 2015.09.30 16:45:26 -
[599] - Quote
Uriam Khanid wrote:Stitch Kaneland wrote:Changes are live my friends. Go forth and rain destruction on the cruiser meta. Bonus points if you kill some orthrus'.
Should be fun. simply do not understand your enthusiasm. your proposal was good, but it looks like BC also need some dps, especially against HAC's after 1-3 month everything will be same as before Vanguard
Battlecruisers are cheap hulls, T1 insurance, low skillpoint threshold, MJD capable now more agile and with better range... players will find plenty of use for them.
Support a fairer loyalty point market for faction war:
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
17084
|
Posted - 2015.09.30 18:45:00 -
[600] - Quote
Azazel The Misanthrope wrote:Arkon Olacar wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:I know some players will be dissapointed that the damage bonus continues to be restricted to kinetic, but we do believe that damage specific bonuses are a useful tool for creating interesting distinctions between ships and we have no plans to phase them out. I'm not sure how to make this more clearcut. This is bad.
Stop doing this.
Please. I think if this were to happen, Caldari missile ships would end up outclassing other missile ships outright unless they were then rebalanced to be more like their competitors damage wise.
Man that would be terrible, imagine an EVE where there was some kind of racial theming to ship bonuses. You'd see ridiculous outcomes like Gallente drone ships outclassing other drone ships outright.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
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