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Asariasha
Caldari Cataclysm Enterprises Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.12.19 19:43:00 -
[1]
Hello,
there seems to be a major problem about cloaking devices on non-covert/recon ships. Currently almost every NPC hunting ship in 0.0 space has got a cloaking device fitted. Of course cloaking devices will apply the scan resolution penalty on those ships, but unfortunately this penalty is by far not enough if you consider that you gain absolute safety, because you can't even be probed by a covert OPs.
I suggest to modify the cloaking devices CPU usage to...
Prototype Cloaking Device: 1060tf Improved Cloaking Device: 1030tf all named cloakings: "current CPU need" + 1000tf
To enable ForceRecon ships and StealthBombers to still fit these devices, there should be added a bonus that lowers CPU need for cloaking devices by 1000tf.
Greets Asa
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Kharakan
Amarr Morticus Impendium
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Posted - 2006.12.19 20:15:00 -
[2]
So you're restricting the cloaking devices to a sum total of about 12 ships?
Originally by: Joshua Foiritain (to Dark Shikari) HAHAHA I KNOW YOUR ACCOUUNT NAME TIME TO DIE
this signature space is claimed in the name of eris, haha I got to him first. neeneer
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Petrothian Tong
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Posted - 2006.12.19 21:08:00 -
[3]
errrrm if you do that, you will make the proto and improve cloak useless....and nothing but components for building covert op cloaks...
there is a reason there stiff penalities in speed in the non-covert op one (what? 75 to 90% penality?) and that the covert op one can only be mounted in recons and S.Bs...
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Nisse Owned
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2006.12.19 22:41:00 -
[4]
I just think the cloaks got enough penalties, if they were like you suggest noone would ever use one, and what ship got 1000 cpu but the industrials, really bad idea...
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Asariasha
Caldari Cataclysm Enterprises Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.12.20 03:31:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Asariasha on 20/12/2006 03:39:30
Well, the intention IS that ships which aren't really meant to use cloaks become unable to use them The point is that it is absolutely disgusting to see that almost every hunter in 0.0 space got one fitted. So, they have a 100% guarantee to not get killed in pvp. Just warp out to your safe spot and cloak. This is even worse than the pre-nerfed warp core stabs, because the penalty of -50% signature resolution (40% if you fit an inproved cloaking) just means that you have a slightly higher locking time for rats in your belt.
It's just the same like logoff-skiing, only that you don't need to log out I think that there shouldn't be a 100% safety in 0.0 space in terms of pvp. Unfortunately cloaking devices on BS currently support this 100% safety. So, the solution is obvious. Make cloaking devices only available to dedicated cloaking ships...just as intended.
@Petrothian Tong: Please read what i suggested and check the item database & shipboni. CovertOps cloaking devices have got a CPU need of 10000tf. So you wouldn't be able to fit a CovertOps cloaking onto a StealthBomber or CombatRecon which means they are still in need of Prototype or Improved cloakings.
Greets Asa
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Nahia Senne
Fortunis Novum
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Posted - 2006.12.20 03:44:00 -
[6]
cloaks have enough penalties as it is. i would say we should remove some instead of adding more... like locking time penalty. would make them viable in pvp.
Make ECCM viable! Give it 25% to scanning resolution! |
Engle
ClanKillers Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.12.20 04:24:00 -
[7]
I say cloaks are fine, there are too many other things to worry about before nerfing cloaks.
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Warden Nightstar
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.12.20 04:36:00 -
[8]
Cloaks are just fine. They give up a lot to mount one. It's all about sacrifices.
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Oarta
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Posted - 2006.12.20 08:24:00 -
[9]
I don't think the benefit you describe would warrant further restricting the use of cloaking devices. You can achieve the same effect, not being found, by moving around from safe spot to safe spot. The cloak does let you sit still and gain the safe effect, but it does give some nasty penalties that could be very hazardous should you get caught.
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Asariasha
Caldari Cataclysm Enterprises Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.12.20 16:36:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Asariasha on 20/12/2006 16:40:28 Speaking about penalties. The only reasonable penalty is that your scan resolution is reduced by 40% which means at all that you need around 15-20seconds to lock on a Battleship. While you are killing the BS spawns, smaller targets like NPC frigs may be targeted and be taken care of before you finished for example two of three BS of a 3BS/3Cruiser or frig spawn. So, if you are hunting rats in 0.0 you don't care about that minor penalty, because in exchange you gain absolute safety in terms of pvp. The second penalty is that you are unable to lock on targets for a few seconds after uncloaking which to be honest only takes effect if you run into a gatecamp cloak and get uncloaked. However, running into a gatecamp would mean the loss of your BS at all.
It is just disgusting to see BS pilots abusing this device while hunting in 0.0 to prevent pvp-engagements. However, reading those replies makes me feel there are almost only carebears left in EvE
Greets Asa
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2006.12.20 21:59:00 -
[11]
Let's put it this way... cloaks were MEANT to be used by basically everybody who WANTS to sacrifice targetting speed for a bit of safety... that safety got SIGNIFICANTLY reduced by the fact you can now PROBE cloaked ships too.
You know, just like those using WCSs are now sacrificing targetting range for a bit of safety. Would you like to have WCSs with 1k tf usage and give indys -99% CPU usage for WCSs ?
Back to the cloaks... even if probed, you still need to get within 2km of them to decloak. Agreed, not easy to do probably, but still, hardly "invulnerable".
Leave the darn cloaks alone, they're pathetic enough already anyway. And in case you didn't know, MOST of EVE are carebears, there would be next to no EVE without carebears. Those that pirate or PvP were either once carebears, are supported by carebears, or have a carebear alt. Exceptions to the rule exist, but so minimal as to be statistically insignificant.
So, basically, all I'm saying is: ZIP IT. Seriously. _ My skills | Mod/Rig stacknerfing explained |
Asariasha
Caldari Cataclysm Enterprises Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.12.20 22:30:00 -
[12]
Sorry, thats a wrong information you got there. It is still not possible to probe cloaked ships. Thats at least what I know
Greets Asa
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Jaketh Ivanes
Amarr 1st Praetorian Guard
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Posted - 2006.12.21 11:11:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Jaketh Ivanes on 21/12/2006 11:14:48 Wow.. getting annoyed that you can't kill the ratters..
pesky piwate
EDIT: A bit more contrsuctive. Lets look at the options a pirate has.. 1: He can lock the system down with bubbles. 2: He can bust SS with probes. 3: He isn't alerting the ratter when he is scanning the system for the location. Lets look at the counter options for the ratter. 1: MWD i guess. 2: Keep warping around or use cloak 3: None really.
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Xantina
Elite Storm Enterprises Storm Armada
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Posted - 2006.12.21 11:18:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Xantina on 21/12/2006 11:19:12 Currently a cloak on a non-covop or recon ship isn't good for anything but hiding a valuable ship. That is a valid use of cloaking shields since all dedicated stealth ships are capable of using a better than prototype cloak. The assumption that all other ships aren't meant to use one is therefore apparently wrong.
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Jaketh Ivanes
Amarr 1st Praetorian Guard
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Posted - 2006.12.21 12:42:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Xantina Edited by: Xantina on 21/12/2006 11:19:12 Currently a cloak on a non-covop or recon ship isn't good for anything but hiding a valuable ship. That is a valid use of cloaking shields since all dedicated stealth ships are capable of using a better than prototype cloak. The assumption that all other ships aren't meant to use one is therefore apparently wrong.
Actually doesn't sound like a bad idea. But we have to go all the way. So, Amarr ships are the only ships that may use laser. Missiles are limited to Caldari. Projectile to Minnies. Armor tanking is the only tank an amarr can use.. no shield mods of any kind what so ever. Caldari may not use armor tanks of any kind. Jamming is prohibited by all ships, except the Balckbird, Scorpion and Rook. TD's are only to be used by Arbitrators. Webbers by the minnie ship with appropiate bonuses (think its the minnie one) Nosses and Neut can now only be fitted on Blood ships and the Curse.
Yes, sounds like a good idea to only use modules on "inteded" ships
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Sokratesz
Guardians of Hell's Gate Tactical Narcotics Team
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Posted - 2006.12.21 12:45:00 -
[16]
Cloaks are fine. The fact that you cannot use them while you are targetted by someone is enough of a drawback (not even taking in account the speed and locking time penalty)
Basilisk Fitting Link |
Kharakan
Amarr Morticus Impendium
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Posted - 2006.12.21 16:54:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Kharakan on 21/12/2006 16:54:27 The inability to use cloaks while target is enough, as Sokrates said. If you target someone they can't cloak so you can blow them up or whatever. If they get away despite this and then cloak, you've fumbled the opportunity and that's it, better luck next time. Eve is not big on 'second chances'.
Originally by: Joshua Foiritain (to Dark Shikari) HAHAHA I KNOW YOUR ACCOUUNT NAME TIME TO DIE
this signature space is claimed in the name of eris, haha I got to him first. neeneer
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Cosmic Flame
Gallente Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2006.12.21 17:27:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Asariasha Edited by: Asariasha on 20/12/2006 03:39:30
Well, the intention IS that ships which aren't really meant to use cloaks become unable to use them The point is that it is absolutely disgusting to see that almost every hunter in 0.0 space got one fitted. So, they have a 100% guarantee to not get killed in pvp. Just warp out to your safe spot and cloak. This is even worse than the pre-nerfed warp core stabs, because the penalty of -50% signature resolution (40% if you fit an inproved cloaking) just means that you have a slightly higher locking time for rats in your belt.
It's just the same like logoff-skiing, only that you don't need to log out I think that there shouldn't be a 100% safety in 0.0 space in terms of pvp. Unfortunately cloaking devices on BS currently support this 100% safety. So, the solution is obvious. Make cloaking devices only available to dedicated cloaking ships...just as intended.
@Petrothian Tong: Please read what i suggested and check the item database & shipboni. CovertOps cloaking devices have got a CPU need of 10000tf. So you wouldn't be able to fit a CovertOps cloaking onto a StealthBomber or CombatRecon which means they are still in need of Prototype or Improved cloakings.
Greets Asa
So what you are proposing is that we go from a situation where whoever is hunting has a chance to actually run and hide, to a situation where enemies jumping into current system = you're dead 100% because there will be no way to run from them... Unless you forgot, 30 secs to 1 minute is all it takes to find a target in space now with recon probe launchers. Which means you can get to a victim before he has a chance to warp off again to a new SS. Or if for some reason you can't get to him before that, he can't log off or stop warping every 20 seconds because he will die...
Recently i was in a gang who was chasing another hostile gang. They got cornered in a system. Our co-ops pilot kept finding them in their SS so fast that they ended up just giving up and suicided against us, simply because there was no way to hide. TBH, i don't like the excessive efficiency in the probe system now. Anyone trying to run or hide has little to no defense. That's not balance.
What you propose is way too biased of a point of view. Cloaks are just fine as they are. |
Romulan Dominiae
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Posted - 2006.12.21 18:35:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Romulan Dominiae on 21/12/2006 18:36:08
Originally by: Asariasha Hello,
there seems to be a major problem about cloaking devices on non-covert/recon ships. Currently almost every NPC hunting ship in 0.0 space has got a cloaking device fitted. Of course cloaking devices will apply the scan resolution penalty on those ships, but unfortunately this penalty is by far not enough if you consider that you gain absolute safety, because you can't even be probed by a covert OPs.
I suggest to modify the cloaking devices CPU usage to...
Prototype Cloaking Device: 1060tf Improved Cloaking Device: 1030tf all named cloakings: "current CPU need" + 1000tf
To enable ForceRecon ships and StealthBombers to still fit these devices, there should be added a bonus that lowers CPU need for cloaking devices by 1000tf.
Greets Asa
lol how lame you are. isnt it fair that SOLO players have a small chance do slip away from ownage from groups? when engaged with npcs they cannot cloak anyway.
why dont you just suggest a frig sized doomsday device that pops everyone you want in any system you decide while sitting in a station in new cladari?
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Doppler Shift
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Posted - 2006.12.21 21:17:00 -
[20]
I am tired of useless hunters that want to change the game mechanics because they are not competent enough to catch their prey.
If you cannot hunt, be the prey and leave the rest of the world alone. These posts are useless.
I am not even going to try and explain why that is a matter of competence. Needless to say, a cloaked (non-recon or covop) ship is NOT undetectable lol.
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Asariasha
Caldari Cataclysm Enterprises Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.12.22 00:56:00 -
[21]
@Jaketh Ivanes: It was only a suggestion to disable non-recon/coverts fitting a cloaking device. A harder penalty for using them on non-recon/coverts would be ok, too. The current penalty of -40-50% signature resolution is just not enough compared to the effect you gain by using such a device. A additional targeting range penalty of 40-50% would be ok - just like on WCS - because a cloaking device gives you the opportunity of avoiding PvP.
@Kharakan: being unable to cloak when targeted doesn't effect the fact that a hunter in 0.0 becomes undetectable by warping to his safespot and activating his cloaking device. The only chance to get a hunter is when he might be warpscrambled by NPC pirates...if he isn't he will just safespot and cloak.
@Cosmic Flame: Nerfing cloaking devices in a way so that only ReconShips and CovertOPs class ships could fit them wouldn't mean that a belthunter is dead for 100% when someone warps in. The pilot would just have to warp from safespot to safespot to avoid getting busted by probing. So, the hunter has got a chance to avoid getting ganked while players looking for them have exactly no chance to get him when he cloaks. Like I said, if there was a harder penalty on the cloaking devices for non-covert/recons like an additional targeting range penalty of 50% it would be fair, because the hunter had to sacrifice 1-2med slots for sensor boosters in exchange for his ultimate anti-pvp mechanism. About your little story hunting some guys...well, I don't like the new - much too easy - scanning system. However, a ship specialized in detecting ships should be able to do so, but currently there is almost no need for a covert due to players exessively using cloaking devices while hunting. Had some roaming gangs down south and almost every solo-hunter had fitted a cloaking device which caused just boredom.
@Romulan Dominiae: please stop getting personal. I just want to discuss the cloaking device situation. And just for you to know (if you havent read the above written). Solo plaayers have got a chance to get away. If you see a hostile jumping into your system just warp to your safespot and use your directional scanner to avoid getting busted on your safe!
@Doppler Shift: I really like people trying to evaluate the sense of certain topics. Of course I can hunt, but I can not hunt which is undetectable, but maybe you want to share your wisdom instead of trolling around? So, how do you probe cloaked ships...with your magic fairy wand?
Greets Asa
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Doppler Shift
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Posted - 2006.12.22 05:04:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Doppler Shift on 22/12/2006 05:06:40 Apologies. Rereading my post I see it comes out a bit ruder than I intended. I still believe that the proposed solution is completely and utterly useless. Because it shoots a completely wrong target - the "frequency" and "ease of use" of cloak rather than the cloak itself. Which led me to believe that you are out for blood and not finding it rather than being frustrated at some peoples apparent invulnerability. Worse still, the proposed solution is completely off the subject - there is a reason that there are 3 cloaking devices, and it is not about price - it is about "inferior" cloaking all ships can use and "true" (recon) cloaking covops and recons get. All this is PERFECT. Fantastic implementation, exploit-less, balanced boni and penalties. The problem is COMPLETELY ELSEWHERE.
Let me explain.
The problem is not cloaking, it is the probe's inability to detect cloaked. A cloaked person can go for coffee, that's your problem isn't it?
So the problem is not the cloak's restrictions - whatever the penalties the problem persists. Even a recon pilot should not be able to go for coffee behind enemy lines.
BUT: Probes are now (after the revelations patches) able to detect cloaked opponents.
In any case, the whole problem has nothing to do with who fits cloaks and how much locking penalty he gets. It is a matter of being able probe a cloaked guy, even with some difficulty. The added difficulty would be that in order to catch him you need a 0m accuracy so you land on top of him and uncloak him
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Jaketh Ivanes
Amarr 1st Praetorian Guard
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Posted - 2006.12.22 13:02:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Asariasha @Jaketh Ivanes: It was only a suggestion to disable non-recon/coverts fitting a cloaking device. A harder penalty for using them on non-recon/coverts would be ok, too. The current penalty of -40-50% signature resolution is just not enough compared to the effect you gain by using such a device. A additional targeting range penalty of 40-50% would be ok - just like on WCS - because a cloaking device gives you the opportunity of avoiding PvP.
And whats wrong with advoiding PvP? If you chase me down the street, is it unfair if i run faster than you or find a good hiding place?
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Chewan Mesa
Beagle Corp
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Posted - 2006.12.22 13:10:00 -
[24]
Sorry but your argumentation doesnt make any sense.
You say cloaks help people avoid pvp, aka getting ganked while ratting. Thats simply wrong.
Being on their toes, watching local and warping to a safespot lets them avoid pvp/getting ganked.
They simply dont warp around between 5 Safespots and then log out, but sit tight and cloak...either way, you dont kill them. Siganture removed due to profanity - Serathu ([email protected]) |
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