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Anize Oramara
The Arch Dashing Dashers
402
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Posted - 2015.09.23 22:48:00 -
[61] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:There's zero point in utilizing Polarized weapons (and yes, I have utilized them on a number of hulls - including cruisers, T3s and Marauders). They're doable - it's just a question of whether the small gains outweigh the huge costs.
For starters, the requirements to have several damage application modules hasn't changed - because Polarized weapons just offer a faster rate of fire and more ammo capacity. On the Palladin, Marauder and Kronos this will typically be several tracking computers or tracking enhancers. On the Marauder it will not only be a pair of target painters and/or missile guidance computers but also hydraulic rigs to extend range (this is because Javelin torpedoes do about the same damage as Fury cruise missiles, with less range and application). Second, you've totally gimped your EHP and tank (two Tornadoes can now gank you), and most of your cargo will consist of Navy 400/800 Cap Boosters to feed either the ancillary x-large shield boosters or heavy capacitor boosters to run armor repairers. Third, since Bastion is now a requirement to tank even average L4s - the level of mobility through a MJD is considerably diminished. You also won't be able to 'shoot and loot' since you won't have any excess cargo capacity. And last but not least your Marauder is going to be incredibly slow because you'll have to sacrifice things like propulsion modules and warp rigs in favor of capacitor rechargers and rigs. So blitzing is out - and it's no longer setup for thoroughly clearing missions, either. But hey, whatever... Precisely this. The gains don't outweigh the loss, and that goes double for Marauders because Polarize weapons handicaps their greatest strength which is their tanks. If Polarize weapons gave an additional 100% damage bonus in addition to another 50% optimal or falloff then maybe there would be some justification in using them. Even still the only ships I would even consider using Polarize weapons on are ships that are fairly inexpensive with good optimals like the Rokh or Apoc. The strengths of the marauder, namely the increased tank, is two parts. Resists and doubling of rep amount. The doubling of rep amount is not effected by polarized weapons. Additionally the tank on a marauder is already far and above what any lv4 mission will ever need. Heck, even with Polarized it still out tanks any other ship with the same number of modules.
Though your continued aggressive opposition is amusing, please continue. |
Damnskippy
Mad Bombers Hashashin Cartel
127
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Posted - 2015.09.24 02:33:28 -
[62] - Quote
Altair Taurus wrote:Great! I have also question about bastion module and tank. What DPS tank do you think is sufficient in "bastioned" Marauder, because I get very crazy tank values in EFT like 1800/3500 sustained/maximum DPS or so. Is it unnecessary or simply standard bastion defense?
I can't really quote tank numbers or anything for you. However, with 3 t2 invulns, a shield boost amp and an t2 xl shield booster on my vargur, I literally drunken facetank all the level 4's.
With bastion mode and barrage, ac's project out to almost 90k ( albeit at a dps loss ). There's more efficient ways to run missions, but I'd rather play inebriated than efficient. |
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
1767
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Posted - 2015.09.24 03:46:55 -
[63] - Quote
Donnachadh wrote:People think I am crazy when I state that there is no such thing as "the best" ship for level 4 missions. This whole crazy debate about polarized weapons brings me back to this and thank you for proving my point. all it shows is people can yell at each other without hearing what the other says. I don't think "debate" is the right word.
@ChainsawPlankto
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
1767
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Posted - 2015.09.24 03:48:41 -
[64] - Quote
Damnskippy wrote:Altair Taurus wrote:Great! I have also question about bastion module and tank. What DPS tank do you think is sufficient in "bastioned" Marauder, because I get very crazy tank values in EFT like 1800/3500 sustained/maximum DPS or so. Is it unnecessary or simply standard bastion defense? I can't really quote tank numbers or anything for you. However, with 3 t2 invulns, a shield boost amp and an t2 xl shield booster on my vargur, I literally drunken facetank all the level 4's. With bastion mode and barrage, ac's project out to almost 90k ( albeit at a dps loss ). There's more efficient ways to run missions, but I'd rather play inebriated than efficient. cheers to that. although I prefer a dead space medium rep, that way if I disconnect* the ship should stay alive.
*or pass out, but I haven't had a problem with that one
@ChainsawPlankto
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Altair Taurus
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
7
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Posted - 2015.09.24 16:30:05 -
[65] - Quote
After long cogitation I've decided to stay with maxed-out Rattlesnake instead. |
chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
194
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Posted - 2015.09.24 17:16:29 -
[66] - Quote
I've been away from the game for few months, but when I was playing I regularly ran missions for all empire factions and own + used all the marauders. I love the whole clear+salvage thing xD. Kudos ccp!
Are you absolutely sure you're going to still be mostly playing against guristas and serpentis 80 days from now? Guristas just aren't very agreeable. Marauders have the tank, project bonus, and tractors that really get along well with close ranges. Guristas default orbits don't play as nice as the other factions.
The kronos is probably the worst marauder overall, but is probably the best choice for what you want to do. Pally doesn't deal kinetic. Vargur has very low kinetic tied to phased plasma, but Arty is bad on vargur for 4s and Guristas range is an inconvenience when working with ACs.
Golem does well vs guristas, but serp have high defender missile rates. It's also a bit more tedious to operate efficiently. |
Altair Taurus
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
7
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Posted - 2015.09.24 17:28:06 -
[67] - Quote
I think with maxed-out sniping Rattlesnake (cruise missiles + sentry drones) I also can safely run missions against all pirate factions. No need to train three months to run one-purpose ship. |
The Bigpuns
Touring New Eden Haven.
11
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Posted - 2015.09.24 23:22:57 -
[68] - Quote
What was the original question again?
No doubt, polarised weapons give a bit more dps, thus quicker clear times generally. But theres a few missions I wouldn't risk them in, namely assault, blockade, ae bonus room to name a few. But because I would have to switch them out for a few missions, I don't use them for any.
I also don't like blitzing, cherry picking and running anomic missions, cos of all the swapping out of ships or moving systems etc. My favourite is still rattle and full clears, with ps to clear up after me. I can fly all maruders except paladin, and machariel, with near max skills, and this is what I settled on as good income for the effort. |
Altair Taurus
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
7
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Posted - 2015.09.25 22:07:46 -
[69] - Quote
After abandoning Marauders training I have one jump clone left with good gunnery implants, because now I am setting up my new main missioner jump clone with missile implants set to fly maxed-out Rattlesnake. Yet I have decided to use this spare "gunnery clone" in some way by placing it in another Empire to run level 4 missions there for some diversity. So I have simple question: Where to place it? I have two potential options: against Sanshas/Bloods flying Nightmare or against Angels flying Machariel. Maybe someday I will train my char for Golem and Paladin or Vargur, but training weapon and support skills has a higher priority now... |
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
1788
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Posted - 2015.09.26 01:06:13 -
[70] - Quote
The Bigpuns wrote:What was the original question again?
No doubt, polarised weapons give a bit more dps, thus quicker clear times generally. But theres a few missions I wouldn't risk them in, namely assault, blockade, ae bonus room to name a few. But because I would have to switch them out for a few missions, I don't use them for any.
I also don't like blitzing, cherry picking and running anomic missions, cos of all the swapping out of ships or moving systems etc. My favourite is still rattle and full clears, with ps to clear up after me. I can fly all maruders except paladin, and machariel, with near max skills, and this is what I settled on as good income for the effort. most of the ships for burners are frigates which are pretty easy to transport (I think 5 is a good start that covers everything, maybe bump up to 6 or 7 to get slightly more optimal on one or two). the 3 crusiers aren't bad . Everything should fit nicely in a DST for a run out to the mission location. MWD+cloak trick makes the run pretty safe, plus DST have pretty sick EHP. Worst case you get red frog to move it, and that will cost a few mil, but you make it back after a few missions. All my mandatory ships fit in a bowhead. then again by blitzing I make so much isk I can just buy a new set of ships for a new location
Altair Taurus wrote:After abandoning Marauders training I have one jump clone left with good gunnery implants, because now I am setting up my new main missioner jump clone with missile implants set to fly maxed-out Rattlesnake. Yet I have decided to use this spare "gunnery clone" in some way by placing it in another Empire to run level 4 missions there for some diversity. So I have simple question: Where to place him? I have two potential options: against Sanshas/Bloods flying Nightmare or against Angels flying Machariel. Maybe someday I will train my char for Golem and Paladin or Vargur, but training weapon and support skills has a higher priority now... they are pretty much all decent options. personally I vastly prefer guns.
@ChainsawPlankto
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Arthur Aihaken
Perkone Caldari State
4674
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Posted - 2015.09.26 03:22:29 -
[71] - Quote
I've honestly found the Golem to be boring as sin to fly. I'm not sure if the other Marauders are more exciting, but the Golem is like a flying brick. You have to either devote all your rigs and between 2-4 mid slots just to apply moderate levels of damage.
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
114
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Posted - 2015.09.26 05:07:36 -
[72] - Quote
Altair Taurus wrote:After long cogitation I've decided to stay with maxed-out Rattlesnake instead.
You can't go wrong with the Rattler. For isk value, I'll vote it to be the best all around ship in the game.
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Arthur Aihaken
Perkone Caldari State
4675
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Posted - 2015.09.26 05:10:36 -
[73] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:You can't go wrong with the Rattler. For isk value, I'll vote it to be the best all around ship in the game.
I just wish you got the missile bonus as the role bonus and had to train into drones.
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
114
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Posted - 2015.09.26 05:16:21 -
[74] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:I've honestly found the Golem to be boring as sin to fly in PvE. I'm not sure if the other Marauders are more exciting, but the Golem feels like flying an armed transport. The lack of low slots means there's not much you can do to remedy the poor speed and inertia, and you have to devote a minimum of four mid slots and/or rigs just to apply moderate levels of damage. It has a massive signature which is only made worse by augmenting it with Hyperspacial rigs - so it tends to attract a lot more damage. Torpedoes are simply not a viable option because you have to sacrifice what little performance improvements you can make - and it leads to a lot of time counting volleys. Cruise missiles are king, but the 8-second+ cycle time and delay to target feels like you're watching paint dry.
LOL. Happy to know this. I think I'll continue to ignore the Golem and finish training for the Vargur.
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Arthur Aihaken
Perkone Caldari State
4675
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Posted - 2015.09.26 05:54:35 -
[75] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:LOL. Happy to know this. I think I'll continue to ignore the Golem and finish training for the Vargur. I'm not sure how it ranks next to 1400mm artillery, but between the cycle time and time to impact it feels like an eternity. Maybe it's not in actuality - but it feels like it.
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
114
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Posted - 2015.09.26 07:55:51 -
[76] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:LOL. Happy to know this. I think I'll continue to ignore the Golem and finish training for the Vargur. I'm not sure how it ranks next to 1400mm artillery, but between the cycle and time to impact it feels like an eternity. Maybe it's not in actuality - but it feels like it. I'm screwing around with a Polarized torpedo fit and it's having a bit more promise.
Polarized fit?? Please don't go there with Marauders like Anize. She's a KB post just waiting to happen with her paper tanked Polarization fits.
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Arthur Aihaken
Perkone Caldari State
4675
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Posted - 2015.09.26 09:06:28 -
[77] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:Polarized fit?? Please don't go there with Marauders like Anize. She's a KB post just waiting to happen with her paper tanked Polarization fits. My ventures into Polarized weapons typically lasts about an hour (until I regain some sanity and switch back to cruise missiles). If torpedoes had better damage application and superior velocity to cruise missiles I think we'd have a winner (even with shorter range). While you can make a Polarized fit work, trying to apply the massive DPS to anything but Battleships and Battlecruisers over ranges of 20km becomes an effort in futility.
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
194
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Posted - 2015.09.26 17:07:52 -
[78] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:If torpedoes had better damage application and superior velocity to cruise missiles I think we'd have a winner (even with shorter range). Im not at the computer ATM, but was playing around with torps in EFT last night. They're looking better than a golem w/ cruise furies at cruiser+ (that was with faction ammo + faction launchers @ ~51km without bastion). Admittedly I've been gone for awhile though, so my cruise missile fit might be off...
This is off topic but has the meta offensive profile of golems changed since the introduction of the new mid/low weapon upgrades? Or are they still pretty much 4 bc, 3-4 tp, 2 rigor? |
Arthur Aihaken
Perkone Caldari State
4677
|
Posted - 2015.09.26 23:08:09 -
[79] - Quote
chaosgrimm wrote:Im not at the computer ATM, but was playing around with torps in EFT last night. They're looking better than a golem w/ cruise furies at cruiser+ (that was with faction ammo + faction launchers @ ~51km without bastion). Admittedly I've been gone for awhile though, so my cruise missile fit might be off...
This is off topic but has the meta offensive profile of golems changed since the introduction of the new mid/low weapon upgrades? Or are they still pretty much 4 bc, 3-4 tp, 2 rigor? Even in Bastion torpedoes are just too slow - particularly if you attempt to use Rage (these are the slowest of the three variants). The other problem with Rage torpedoes is that while the DPS looks great on paper, applying it to anything other than battlecruisers and battleships is next to impossible. You can solve the range/velocity issue to some extent by utilizing Javelin torpedoes, but these do almost a third less damage than Faction torpedoes and actually have slightly worse damage application than Faction (higher DRF). And last but not least, the use of torpedoes generally requires some degree of maneuverability to keep targets within range, so it's not conducive to Bastion or slower speeds.
I've actually come up with a Barghest torpedo fit that does over 1300 DPS out to almost 50km using Faction torpedoes and missile implants. It has excellent damage application against everything (including frigates). Missile velocity is over 12000m/s, so you never lose volleys during cycles. It also gives you the option to swap out to Javelin to extend range by about 20km and missile velocity by 2000m/s. Rate of fire is just under 7 seconds, but it feels a lot faster. Fast (1400m/s), cap stable and able to achieve 4.0AU/s warp speed with Ascendancy implants. About 65k EHP with a 325 DPS omni tank. This will pop all NPC battleships in 2-3 volleys (except for Drone Parasites), cruisers and elite cruisers in 1-2 volleys, battlecruisers and destroyers in a single volley and frigates in 2-3 volleys (depending on range and whether or not they're orbiting).
With respect to the new meta for Golems, it's two target painters followed by two precision-scripted T2 missile guidance computers. A pair of T2 rigors further augments this
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
195
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Posted - 2015.09.27 09:12:37 -
[80] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote: Even in Bastion torpedoes are just too slow - particularly if you attempt to use Rage (these are the slowest of the three variants). The other problem with Rage torpedoes is that while the DPS looks great on paper, applying it to anything other than battlecruisers and battleships is next to impossible. You can solve the range/velocity issue to some extent by utilizing Javelin torpedoes, but these do almost a third less damage than Faction torpedoes and actually have slightly worse damage application than Faction (higher DRF). And last but not least, the use of torpedoes generally requires some degree of maneuverability to keep targets within range, so it's not conducive to Bastion or slower speeds.
I've actually come up with a Barghest torpedo fit that does over 1300 DPS out to almost 50km using Faction torpedoes and missile implants. It has excellent damage application against everything (including frigates). Missile velocity is over 12000m/s, so you never lose volleys during cycles. It also gives you the option to swap out to Javelin to extend range by about 20km and missile velocity by 2000m/s. Rate of fire is just under 7 seconds, but it feels a lot faster. Fast (1400m/s), cap stable and able to achieve 4.0AU/s warp speed with Ascendancy implants. About 65k EHP with a 325 DPS omni tank. This will pop all NPC battleships in 2-3 volleys (except for Drone Parasites), cruisers and elite cruisers in 1-2 volleys, battlecruisers and destroyers in a single volley and frigates in 2-3 volleys (depending on range and whether or not they're orbiting).
With respect to the new meta for Golems, it's two target painters followed by two precision-scripted T2 missile guidance computers. A pair of T2 rigors further augments this
Well, ill be honest, i completely neglected taking torp speed into acct lol. I updated fits and played around with a barghest fit at your suggestion. Barghest does look viable with torps. I've been wanting to play around with a torp boat in missions for awhile now so i may pick one up. thanks! |
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Anize Oramara
The Arch Dashing Dashers
421
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Posted - 2015.09.27 13:11:03 -
[81] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:LOL. Happy to know this. I think I'll continue to ignore the Golem and finish training for the Vargur. I'm not sure how it ranks next to 1400mm artillery, but between the cycle and time to impact it feels like an eternity. Maybe it's not in actuality - but it feels like it. I'm screwing around with a Polarized torpedo fit and it's having a bit more promise. Polarized fit?? Please don't go there with Marauders like Anize. She's a KB post just waiting to happen with her paper tanked Polarization fits. tsk tsk, so risk averse, so scared. It's a wonder you undock at all. |
unidenify
Plundering Penguins Solyaris Chtonium
139
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Posted - 2015.09.27 21:51:52 -
[82] - Quote
honest, CCP need to fix/improve Torpedo performance,
most time I see people have beef with golem boil down to that Torpedo is just terrible weapon system.
Cruise Golem have their issue as well (travel time, TP become ineffective after 100km, and so) |
Arthur Aihaken
Perkone Caldari State
4681
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Posted - 2015.09.28 00:14:41 -
[83] - Quote
unidenify wrote:honest, CCP need to fix/improve Torpedo performance, most time I see people have beef with golem boil down to that Torpedo is just terrible weapon system. Cruise Golem have their issue as well (travel time, TP become ineffective after 100km, and so) Yes they do. They need to adjust the explosion radius so that it's smaller than cruise missiles and buff the missile velocity by 100% (reduce flight time by half).
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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Sabriz Adoudel
Black Hydra Consortium.
5373
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Posted - 2015.09.28 00:28:03 -
[84] - Quote
I don't PVE much and when I do, it's to support ganking/wardeccing activities (i.e. to rebuild sec status).
But when I do, I use a PVP fitted (but no local tackle; an alt in an interceptor is logged off in system) Kronos with neutron blasters, medium neuts, and two midslot tracking modules. MWD and cap injector fill out the midslots, and 2 C-type EANMs, 3 Magstabs, an AAR and an X-type traditional local repper fill out the lows. Rigs are tech 2 local repair rigs.
Both Null L and Void L get used. Null hits well at 80km and can reach 95km briefly (while you overheat both precision midslots). Void rips close targets a new one. Carry faction antimatter as well, but only use it on PVP targets.
If PVP is a certainty not just a prospect, the guns are downgraded to electrons and the neuts upgraded to heavy neuts. You can tank any 6 subcaps for an extended period unless they have neut support and you can even tank a sieged dread or supercarrier long enough to (maybe) make a difference.
I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Sabriz's Rule: "Any time someone argues for a game change claiming it is a quality of life change, the change is actually a game balance change".
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Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
119
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Posted - 2015.09.28 07:23:47 -
[85] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:LOL. Happy to know this. I think I'll continue to ignore the Golem and finish training for the Vargur. I'm not sure how it ranks next to 1400mm artillery, but between the cycle and time to impact it feels like an eternity. Maybe it's not in actuality - but it feels like it. I'm screwing around with a Polarized torpedo fit and it's having a bit more promise. Polarized fit?? Please don't go there with Marauders like Anize. She's a KB post just waiting to happen with her paper tanked Polarization fits. tsk tsk, so risk averse, so scared. It's a wonder you undock at all.
Not at all. I'm actually planning to use my Marauders in C5s in the near future. I'm just not a gambler, especially when the stakes costs 1.5 bill iskies. |
Anize Oramara
The Arch Dashing Dashers
422
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Posted - 2015.09.28 07:56:14 -
[86] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:LOL. Happy to know this. I think I'll continue to ignore the Golem and finish training for the Vargur. I'm not sure how it ranks next to 1400mm artillery, but between the cycle and time to impact it feels like an eternity. Maybe it's not in actuality - but it feels like it. I'm screwing around with a Polarized torpedo fit and it's having a bit more promise. Polarized fit?? Please don't go there with Marauders like Anize. She's a KB post just waiting to happen with her paper tanked Polarization fits. tsk tsk, so risk averse, so scared. It's a wonder you undock at all. Not at all. I'm actually planning to use my Marauders in C5s in the near future. I'm just not a gambler, especially when the stakes costs 1.5 bill iskies. Hardly a gamble if the marauder can still drunk tank any lv4 with polarized and has 0 faction or dedspace modules on it. The cost is closer to 1.1 bill. |
Daniela Doran
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
119
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Posted - 2015.09.28 09:45:08 -
[87] - Quote
Hardly a gamble if the marauder can still drunk tank any lv4 with polarized and has 0 faction or dedspace modules on it. The cost is closer to 1.1 bill.[/quote]
I wasn't debating whether or not a Polarize fitted Marauder could tank level 4s or not. Instead I was debating if the risk was worth it, in case you get DCd or visited by the mighty Catalyst. |
Anize Oramara
The Arch Dashing Dashers
422
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Posted - 2015.09.28 10:22:56 -
[88] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote:I wasn't debating whether or not a Polarize fitted Marauder could tank level 4s or not. Instead I was debating if the risk was worth it, in case you get DCd or visited by the mighty Catalyst. There's a saying, one we use quite often here where I live. You don't have to have the best security or the least stuff, just better security and less stuff than your neighbor.
This is particularly true in a mission hub. You don't have to have the best tank or the least amount of gank worthy modules fitted, just more tank and less bling than the dedspace/officer fit navy raven that happens to undock a the same time as you. That's the whole point of the polarized maraduer. It can get not only better tank than most other ships, but it can do so with the cheapest mods. Other BS can't really do that but Marauders can and that's why they're the best ships to fit Polarized weapon on. It's not gambling if you're stacking the bet that much in your favor. |
Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
624
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Posted - 2015.09.28 16:06:26 -
[89] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:I wasn't debating whether or not a Polarize fitted Marauder could tank level 4s or not. Instead I was debating if the risk was worth it, in case you get DCd or visited by the mighty Catalyst. There's a saying, one we use quite often here where I live. You don't have to have the best security or the least stuff, just better security and less stuff than your neighbor. This is particularly true in a mission hub. You don't have to have the best tank or the least amount of gank worthy modules fitted, just more tank and less bling than the dedspace/officer fit navy raven that happens to undock a the same time as you. That's the whole point of the polarized maraduer. It can get not only better tank than most other ships, but it can do so with the cheapest mods. Other BS can't really do that but Marauders can and that's why they're the best ships to fit Polarized weapon on. It's not gambling if you're stacking the bet that much in your favor.
https://youtu.be/um3tlxmK7Cg?t=19s
BEST PART of that movie was that damn bear scene!
"Tomahawks?"
"----in' A, right?"
"Trouble is, those things cost like a million and a half each."
"----, you pay me half that and I'll hump in some c4 and blow the ---- out of it my own damn self."
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Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
4684
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Posted - 2015.09.30 04:43:04 -
[90] - Quote
Just for the sake of discussion Anize, could you post your Polarized Golem fit along with any pointers? ie: How do you group launchers, what do you typically run for implants, missions to avoid, etc. Thanks.
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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