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Chris TheNinjaPirate
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.12.20 21:01:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Chris TheNinjaPirate on 20/12/2006 21:01:39 Edited by: Chris TheNinjaPirate on 20/12/2006 21:01:11 in quickfit i was tinkering with these ships. what i found is a bit startling to me.
i assumed t2 gunnery skills, and other reasonable skills (lets say around 4 million points in hybrid tree, and 4 million in projectiles tree).
set up a brutix: 7x heavy electron blaster tech 2 no damage mod (tank = 2x tech 2 mar, and 3x hardeners, or 2x eanm tech 2 and damage control) 5x tech 2 medium drones
set up a hurricane: 6x vulcan tech 2, 2x limos heavy launchers one damage mod (tank = 2x tech 2 mar, 2x tech 2 eanm, and damage control) 3x tech 2 medium drones
ok, so then i loaded them up with ammo. ALL DPS FIGURES HERE ARE ON STRUCTURE. (and i have very poor missiles skills ) hurricane: - hail, and tech 1 missiles, and drones: 342 dps on structure, which of course is assuming you are not fighting in falloff, which is very bad in a minmatar ship. so if you are fighting a brutix, trying to stay at 6km or so, your REAL DPS is maybe 224dps. and this ammo nerfs your tanking through capacitor use!? - barrage, and tech 1 missiles, and drones: the only point here to load barrage is to fly outside of web range? so say 12km range, 240dps. - emp, and tech 1 missiles, and drones: maybe you want to fly at 7km again to avoid damage from brutix, so about 250dps
now the brutix: - antimatter and drones: at 1km, the brutix can do 400ish dps. holy crap?! at 6km (if hurricane manages to dictate range), then 220 dps. - void and drones: at 1km, 450ish dps. at 6km, much much less, at 140dps.
so, the conclusions: why is it that hurricane's damage is so poor, EVEN WITH A DAMAGE MOD?? to survive, the hurricane MUST dictate range. however, even when it can dictate range, its dps isn't much better than the brutix dps.
if the brutix gets in close even with heavy tank instead of damage mod, it is gg for the hurricane the brutix can easily tank the hurricane's damage while the hurricane dies.
so why does hurricane end up with tech 1 emp ammo being better than hail? why does hurricane get only poor dps? what if it gets caught in a web, it will not be able to dictate range, and then the brutix will just have it as a snack!
is the ONLY way to play the hurricane with nanos and inertia stabs in lows, and MWD, orbiting like a stabber?
brutix > all
where is the wrong in my analysis? or are all minmatar ships subject to this low dps???
even missiles ships have similar dps than us, and THEY always hit. especially at short range where we usually fight, there is not worry about flight times.
* * * * * * * * * * * * sorry for my english, i am new with it |
Mutant Caldari
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Posted - 2006.12.20 21:16:00 -
[2]
Try the Brutix with 7x Neutron II Blasters and you will see true damage potential .Btw Null is better for longer range then Void.
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Chris TheNinjaPirate
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.12.20 21:22:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Mutant Caldari Try the Brutix with 7x Neutron II Blasters and you will see true damage potential .Btw Null is better for longer range then Void.
yes... even with electrons though, brutix can then tank and still the hurricane has little chance to beat it.
is this how minmatar battleships are as well, too small of a dps to win conflicts?
* * * * * * * * * * * * sorry for my english, i am new with it |
pigofparadise
Minmatar Wasted Reavers Tre Kroner
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Posted - 2006.12.20 21:33:00 -
[4]
Yep. Its great being Minnie, aint it
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Mutant Caldari
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Posted - 2006.12.20 21:35:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Chris TheNinjaPirate
Originally by: Mutant Caldari Try the Brutix with 7x Neutron II Blasters and you will see true damage potential .Btw Null is better for longer range then Void.
yes... even with electrons though, brutix can then tank and still the hurricane has little chance to beat it.
is this how minmatar battleships are as well, too small of a dps to win conflicts?
I am guessing you have never flown a t2 Fitted Tempest.Those things can have gank and tank and just rock
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Christopher Dalran
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Posted - 2006.12.20 21:36:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Chris TheNinjaPirate
Originally by: Mutant Caldari Try the Brutix with 7x Neutron II Blasters and you will see true damage potential .Btw Null is better for longer range then Void.
yes... even with electrons though, brutix can then tank and still the hurricane has little chance to beat it.
is this how minmatar battleships are as well, too small of a dps to win conflicts?
Minmatar ships need to try and drag fights out as long as possible to give the enemy time to run his cap energy down, yes their own cap will drain down too but projectiles dont need cap to fire so use that to your advantage.
You can also try using energy neuts, they drain you cap too but they drain 2x as fast as NOS and you dont need it to fire anyway.
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Sienis
The Flying Daggers Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.12.20 21:36:00 -
[7]
well... at least hurricane looks better than brutix
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The Masia
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Posted - 2006.12.20 21:53:00 -
[8]
Quote: so, the conclusions: why is it that hurricane's damage is so poor, EVEN WITH A DAMAGE MOD?? to survive, the hurricane MUST dictate range. however, even when it can dictate range, its dps isn't much better than the brutix dps.
if the brutix gets in close even with heavy tank instead of damage mod, it is gg for the hurricane Rolling Eyes the brutix can easily tank the hurricane's damage while the hurricane dies.
Let me first state. "Welcome to Eve-Online".
Secondly, I understand that you do not know how to fly some ships. Posting sometimes gives you feedback on what you might be doing wrong. In this, I would like to point out that the Hurricane is not setup to fly at the same ranges as the Brutix with blasters fitted. You must understand that if a Brutix with Blasters can't hit your Hurricane in battle. Then you are on the path to winning the fight. Using the same DPS numbers you quoted that obviously would be incorrect in a real fight, the Brutix still would not be able to tank or atleast get in range for the duration of the fight. Keep in mind, cap injector setups only last as long as the cap injector charges.
To sum this up, Hurricane can kite the Brutix to death. Learn to play.
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Xori Ruscuv
Vendetta Underground Rule of Three
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Posted - 2006.12.20 22:27:00 -
[9]
Funny...
I'm "switching" to Minmatar. Sounds like you want to switch to Gallente.
Funny how the grass is always greener on the other side :)
Anyway, the previous posters are right - the idea is to fight in falloff and keep the Brutix from GETTING close. Barrage - sit out a ways like you said, and keep your range. If he hits MWD toward you, hit your MWD, web him if he gets close, etc.
Of course this takes practice. I can't do it reliably. Minmatar ships take a great deal of "rl" skill to fly.
They also take a great deal of SP. You've gotta have at least mediocre missile skills to supplement the DPS if you are going to fly the Hurricane as you described, for instance. And drone skills. And you'll need decent nav skills in order to amplify your speed advantage... because after all, it IS the speed and the falloff that are your tools.
It's great playing Caldari-online, isn't it?
This IS my main! I just did a portrait swap... |
ViperVenom
Minmatar Fast Food Corp Novus Ordos Seclorum
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Posted - 2006.12.20 22:40:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Mutant Caldari
Originally by: Chris TheNinjaPirate
Originally by: Mutant Caldari Try the Brutix with 7x Neutron II Blasters and you will see true damage potential .Btw Null is better for longer range then Void.
yes... even with electrons though, brutix can then tank and still the hurricane has little chance to beat it.
is this how minmatar battleships are as well, too small of a dps to win conflicts?
I am guessing you have never flown a t2 Fitted Tempest.Those things can have gank and tank and just rock
The AC tempest is the mother load of DPS in range. 200 and up baby.
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Aeaus
Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2006.12.20 22:56:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Xori Ruscuv Funny...
Funny how the grass is always greener on the other side :)
Not if you're switching from Amarr. I'm doing that right now, and... I'm loving it baby.
Tanking Survivability Calculator |
Xori Ruscuv
Vendetta Underground Rule of Three
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Posted - 2006.12.20 23:02:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 20/12/2006 23:01:59
Originally by: Aeaus
Originally by: Xori Ruscuv Funny...
Funny how the grass is always greener on the other side :)
Not if you're switching from Amarr. I'm doing that right now, and... I'm loving it baby.
Understood!
It's great playing Caldari-online, isn't it?
This IS my main! I just did a portrait swap... |
Chris TheNinjaPirate
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.12.20 23:46:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Chris TheNinjaPirate on 20/12/2006 23:57:45 Edited by: Chris TheNinjaPirate on 20/12/2006 23:55:10 Edited by: Chris TheNinjaPirate on 20/12/2006 23:53:12 Edited by: Chris TheNinjaPirate on 20/12/2006 23:46:37
Originally by: ViperVenom The AC tempest is the mother load of DPS in range. 200 and up baby.
200 is good??? when you are up against ravens that do 500 to 680 dps, and a megathron or hyperion that can do 900 dps.
and the tempest cant tank as well as either of those?! ooo it has an extra mid slot. i dont care, move it to lows so it can fit a damage mod and have a hope of doing some damage.
2x LAR II, 3x EANM, DC... no damage mod?
* * * * * * * * * * * * sorry for my english, i am new with it |
HankMurphy
Pelennor Swarm Eternal Rangers of Terror
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Posted - 2006.12.20 23:57:00 -
[14]
my money is on the hurricane pilot if he can keep his speed up / not fly like a moron.
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Lucifer Fellblade
Ore Mongers SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2006.12.21 00:12:00 -
[15]
Drones die very fast to ACs and a web.
Blasters also have a small optimal, and once your outside that, he's gonna be hitting you with nothing, whereas ACs have huge falloff so just fly around outside web range and pwn him.
Short of it, if you dictate range against a blaster ship, it's a big pile of floating metal with some nice shiny lights on it. ------
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Vasiliyan
PAX Interstellar Services Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2006.12.21 01:25:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Lucifer Fellblade
Short of it, if you dictate range against a blaster ship, it's a big pile of floating metal with some nice shiny lights on it.
Pretty much. It's very hard to get into a situation where you can use blasters effectively, and once you do you're inside web, nos and scram range and your only remaining tactical option is to swear louder.
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Chris TheNinjaPirate
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.12.21 03:27:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Vasiliyan Pretty much. It's very hard to get into a situation where you can use blasters effectively
but then you have so much dps. megathron 900 dps, brutix 400 or 500. everything killed so fast they can not keep up.
how is it that autocannons are balanced? missiles do more damage, better selection of damage types, and always hit. blasters are better with damage. minmatar just has half-arsed tanks, half-arsed weapons...
yea, yea, "learn to play"...
* * * * * * * * * * * * sorry for my english, i am new with it |
HankMurphy
Pelennor Swarm Eternal Rangers of Terror
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Posted - 2006.12.21 03:55:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Chris TheNinjaPirate just has half-arsed tanks, half-arsed weapons...
shhhh... not half arsed , its supposed to be Versatile
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The Masia
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Posted - 2006.12.21 04:17:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Chris TheNinjaPirate
Originally by: Vasiliyan Pretty much. It's very hard to get into a situation where you can use blasters effectively
but then you have so much dps. megathron 900 dps, brutix 400 or 500. everything killed so fast they can not keep up.
how is it that autocannons are balanced? missiles do more damage, better selection of damage types, and always hit. blasters are better with damage. minmatar just has half-arsed tanks, half-arsed weapons...
yea, yea, "learn to play"...
All you're seeing is the damage. You're not opening your eyes to anything else. Blasters use cap thus use energy. Blasters also are extream short ranged thus need speed. Missiles can hit everything yes, but one damage type (hit lesser than guns in some cases).
Minmatar has great short-mid ranges. That's there advantage, being in your blasters extream falloff or out of your range. Even worse, forcing you to switch ammo. The minmatar tank is exactly half-assed. It's not Amarrian influenced like most.
Just for the record, we do hit hard for our ranges. Autocannon is by far the most flawless gun if used correctly. Blasters will kill the autocannon but luckly for us, minmatar ships are the fastest and the most hybrid.
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AcheLone
Caldari Sole Survivor Agency
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Posted - 2006.12.21 06:48:00 -
[20]
Originally by: The Masia
Originally by: Chris TheNinjaPirate
Originally by: Vasiliyan Pretty much. It's very hard to get into a situation where you can use blasters effectively
but then you have so much dps. megathron 900 dps, brutix 400 or 500. everything killed so fast they can not keep up.
how is it that autocannons are balanced? missiles do more damage, better selection of damage types, and always hit. blasters are better with damage. minmatar just has half-arsed tanks, half-arsed weapons...
yea, yea, "learn to play"...
All you're seeing is the damage. You're not opening your eyes to anything else. Blasters use cap thus use energy. Blasters also are extream short ranged thus need speed. Missiles can hit everything yes, but one damage type (hit lesser than guns in some cases).
Minmatar has great short-mid ranges. That's there advantage, being in your blasters extream falloff or out of your range. Even worse, forcing you to switch ammo. The minmatar tank is exactly half-assed. It's not Amarrian influenced like most.
Just for the record, we do hit hard for our ranges. Autocannon is by far the most flawless gun if used correctly. Blasters will kill the autocannon but luckly for us, minmatar ships are the fastest and the most hybrid.
You hit the mark mate.
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Jaketh Ivanes
Amarr 1st Praetorian Guard
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Posted - 2006.12.21 08:24:00 -
[21]
Another bonus to AC's is, they are allmost immune to tracking disruptors. Tried to kill an AC boat by using 2 TD's.. I still shredded to death. Not sure how TD's affect blasters/rails, but they really kill lasers.
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Miklas Laces
A.N.A.R.C.H.I.C.A
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Posted - 2006.12.21 08:28:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Chris TheNinjaPirate in quickfit i was tinkering with these ships. what i found is a bit startling to me.
Blasters have more damage, autocannons have more range and don't use cap. What's startling ?
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Kagura Nikon
Minmatar The Black Dawn Gang
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Posted - 2006.12.21 09:41:00 -
[23]
Things would be balanced if tehre were mods to extend falloff. Because as it is now its quite hard to keep distance apropriated (needs to be too close to web limit) and you NEED an MWD or AB and dual web. If brute force doesn't solve your problem.. then you are not using enough!! |
Davros Johnstone
The Sanctum
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Posted - 2006.12.21 09:54:00 -
[24]
If a hurricane gets witinh 5km of a blaster brutix, he deserves to die. If you don't have the brains for matar, go caldari.
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Kagura Nikon
Minmatar The Black Dawn Gang
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Posted - 2006.12.21 09:57:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Davros Johnstone If a hurricane gets witinh 5km of a blaster brutix, he deserves to die. If you don't have the brains for matar, go caldari.
that is not so simple. REstrain a lot your setups .
Also if AC are supposed to fight always at 8 km.. why dont they have an optimum of 10km and a falloff of 2 km? Its completely unfair that all races can boost their weapons range, all but minmatar. If brute force doesn't solve your problem.. then you are not using enough!! |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial
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Posted - 2006.12.21 10:44:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Goumindong on 21/12/2006 10:50:07
Originally by: Kagura Nikon
Originally by: Davros Johnstone If a hurricane gets witinh 5km of a blaster brutix, he deserves to die. If you don't have the brains for matar, go caldari.
that is not so simple. REstrain a lot your setups .
Also if AC are supposed to fight always at 8 km.. why dont they have an optimum of 10km and a falloff of 2 km? Its completely unfair that all races can boost their weapons range, all but minmatar.
You mean "all races can boost their range except Caldari, Minmatar, and Gallente" right? Because there are no missile speed boosts, and Gallente's max range is just as bad in the short range as Minmatars are.
But really, do you want to spend a mid or low slot for .7km more range[HP w/ MF]? At the moment damage type is the only consideration due to high falloff.
There are reasons that people dont fit tracking computers and enhancers on short range ships, even Amarran ones.
Do you really want to be more susceptable to tracking disruptors? do you want to have your maximum range with high damage ammo be in the 7km range?
But yea, it would be great if ACs could compete with pulse lasers for range... Well, if would be great for AC's at least, it would be devastating to the ammarran vessels which are much harder to fit than the minmatar[or gallente for that matter], slower than the minmatar, heavier than the minmatar, deal less damage than the minmatar[220's+ lvl 4 RoF bonus > Heavy Pulse Damage, RAW], do worse damage types than ACs, use more capacitor[read, actualy use capacator] than the minmatar, in return for gaining a small optimal range bonus over the minmatar[larger as ship sizes increase] for pulse lasers.
If minmatar had longer range there would literally be zero downsizes to autocannons. There already are very little problems with the weapons, and as minmatar ships are faster, easier to fit and able to dictate range this advantage play itself out well. It does make it harder to fly minmatar against mixed opponents[amarr want to get as far away as possible, gallente want to get up close, minmatar want to try and skirt the middle] and it does mean that you cant use the same tactics against every ship you face, but the ships are strong and do have advantages if you just use them. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
Kagura Nikon
Minmatar The Black Dawn Gang
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Posted - 2006.12.21 10:52:00 -
[27]
But all other races can fight within theyr optimal. Minmatar cant! And they can boost this optimal if they want to stay out of web range. matar can't If we had at least a module to give 5-7% more falloff I would fore SURE fit 1 or 2 in my rupture or hurricane. If brute force doesn't solve your problem.. then you are not using enough!! |
Sonos SAGD
Minmatar Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.12.21 10:57:00 -
[28]
i would fit some nos on the hurricane.
if your missile skills suck, just like mine do you can stop them from shooting or tanking which is very bad for them
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial
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Posted - 2006.12.21 11:00:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Goumindong on 21/12/2006 11:01:29
Originally by: Kagura Nikon But all other races can fight within theyr optimal. Minmatar cant! And they can boost this optimal if they want to stay out of web range. matar can't If we had at least a module to give 5-7% more falloff I would fore SURE fit 1 or 2 in my rupture or hurricane.
AC falloff rigs, +20% falloff
Also, minmatar can fight within their omptimal, it is just unwise to do so against blaster ships. It is perfectly good to do so against laser ships.
---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
slothe
Caldari Forsaken Empire
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Posted - 2006.12.21 11:10:00 -
[30]
the ignorance is strong in this one...
dude its not all about dps
id fly a hurricaine against your brutix and win.
Before complaining about any ship try flying Minmatar |
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