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Gevuldekoek
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Posted - 2006.12.21 11:22:00 -
[31]
Originally by: pigofparadise Yep. Its great being Minnie, aint it
Yeah boohoo poor Minmatar Fit mwd stay out of webber range ktnx.
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Reto
The Last Resort
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Posted - 2006.12.21 11:39:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Kagura Nikon
Originally by: Davros Johnstone If a hurricane gets witinh 5km of a blaster brutix, he deserves to die. If you don't have the brains for matar, go caldari.
that is not so simple. REstrain a lot your setups .
Also if AC are supposed to fight always at 8 km.. why dont they have an optimum of 10km and a falloff of 2 km? Its completely unfair that all races can boost their weapons range, all but minmatar.
boosting ur optimal increases ur overall range....ur overall range is optimal + falloff. not falloff or optimal on its own...so if ur optimal increases the falloff range is added ontop of ur optimal range resulting in a higher overall range.
Originally by: s4mp3r0r "Hey man, you're mom has a cruise missile".
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Kagura Nikon
Minmatar The Black Dawn Gang
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Posted - 2006.12.21 11:46:00 -
[33]
Boosting 2k is not best way to be happy. If brute force doesn't solve your problem.. then you are not using enough!! |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial
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Posted - 2006.12.21 12:08:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Reto
Originally by: Kagura Nikon
Originally by: Davros Johnstone If a hurricane gets witinh 5km of a blaster brutix, he deserves to die. If you don't have the brains for matar, go caldari.
that is not so simple. REstrain a lot your setups .
Also if AC are supposed to fight always at 8 km.. why dont they have an optimum of 10km and a falloff of 2 km? Its completely unfair that all races can boost their weapons range, all but minmatar.
boosting ur optimal increases ur overall range....ur overall range is optimal + falloff. not falloff or optimal on its own...so if ur optimal increases the falloff range is added ontop of ur optimal range resulting in a higher overall range.
Yes, the complaint it that overall range is not modified enough by ammo type or by optimal enhancers.
To respond to that complaint with an examination of falloff rigs[since autocannons have so little PG use they can actualy use them]
Falloff rigs should modify this a bit, highly skilled pilots in ships that grant ROF bonuses , dual 180 autocannons do about 1.5% less DoT than 220s[who share the same relationship to 425s, though it should be noted this only applies in fairly long battles as otherwise reloading and clip size do not factor into the equation, and that the typical relationship is about 5% DPS between the weapons barring reloading issues, which with the new RoF changes are not usualy nessesary] and all of them have the same falloff of 8000 with differences of less than 500 meters for optimal range.
The AC falloff rigs grant a 15% bonus to falloff with tech 1[which I am sure you can fit 3 on a ship, i cant check whether or not you can fit 3 tech II on a ship though] and you ought to be able to fit 3 on a ship. So for 117 PG[maximum, 101.871 minimum] you can have a weapon, that at max skills has an optimal range of 1.2 kilometers and a maximum falloff of 15208.25km[tech 1, tech II rigs=17280km] with Hail[if unchanged in range benefits from current item database], or an optimal of 2.4 KM with a falloff of 22920.5 with Barrage.[25920 tech II]
To compare with lasers, a 3 optimal Heavy Pulse Laser II with multifrequency will hit 15.42 KM [Optimal+fallof] max with a 10.42 optimal range and 5km of falloff. Not that you can afford the 15% minimum pg increase with Heavy Pulses. Scorch would hit 30.4 KM optimal[which actualy could be usefull now that i get the numbers down, though compared to the falloff rigs for AC's, its nothing as there is no reason to believe that falloff bonuses are stacking penalized]
Numbers for the PG use of 220s and 425s would be:
[no skills/max skills] All numbers rounded up to nearest half PG
220 vulcan II: [146.5/127.5] 425 Auto II : [205/178.5]
Maximum falloff ranges of course would be the same.
So look for those rigs[when prices come down of course], train a few skills up, and enjoy your 15km falloff hail ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
Kagura Nikon
Minmatar The Black Dawn Gang
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Posted - 2006.12.21 12:11:00 -
[35]
yes, when rigs have reasonable prices it will be OK, until then....
Something that could be done is.. for AC keep al with same optimal and change falloff between 180-220-425 If brute force doesn't solve your problem.. then you are not using enough!! |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial
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Posted - 2006.12.21 12:19:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Kagura Nikon yes, when rigs have reasonable prices it will be OK, until then....
Something that could be done is.. for AC keep al with same optimal and change falloff between 180-220-425
O.K!
O.K!
Are you freaking kidding me, 15km falloff with freaking fusion. My word, that is freaking disgusting, you should not be outranging pulse lasers with freaking autocannons.
Numbers should be amended from above.
Max falloff will be 16.56[2 tech 1, 1 tech 1] and Hail now has a falloff penalty, halving that bonus.
No, there is no problem about where autocannons do damage, in order to maintain balance[what little of it there is, AC's are very strong] they need to not out range pulse lasers[especialy since they outdamage them!] and they need to not out-damage blasters while out-ranging them.
The falloff rigs are disgustingly good for AC boats, and its beyond what anyone could consider "OK" ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
Kagura Nikon
Minmatar The Black Dawn Gang
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Posted - 2006.12.21 12:21:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Kagura Nikon yes, when rigs have reasonable prices it will be OK, until then....
Something that could be done is.. for AC keep al with same optimal and change falloff between 180-220-425
O.K!
O.K!
Are you freaking kidding me, 15km falloff with freaking fusion. My word, that is freaking disgusting, you should not be outranging pulse lasers with freaking autocannons.
Numbers should be amended from above.
Max falloff will be 16.56[2 tech 1, 1 tech 1] and Hail now has a falloff penalty, halving that bonus.
No, there is no problem about where autocannons do damage, in order to maintain balance[what little of it there is, AC's are very strong] they need to not out range pulse lasers[especialy since they outdamage them!] and they need to not out-damage blasters while out-ranging them.
The falloff rigs are disgustingly good for AC boats, and its beyond what anyone could consider "OK"
dont forget that damage is reduced in falloff! And i fell that falloff will be stack nerfed. If brute force doesn't solve your problem.. then you are not using enough!! |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial
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Posted - 2006.12.21 12:25:00 -
[38]
Edited by: Goumindong on 21/12/2006 12:25:38 yes, i know that damage is reduced in falloff. But it is not reduced that much, and every time you increase falloff you increase damage at the static range underneat that fallof, which is why extended falloffs are dangerous in short range encounters.
Seriously, if autocannons didnt have enough advantages... ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
Omega Bloodstone
Battlestars Imperium Alliance
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Posted - 2006.12.21 15:46:00 -
[39]
Have you seen a Vaga pwn a Demios with 180 AC II's. I have. I've done it, not saying that I have not lost as well on the same encounter...I have. But it goes back and forth. Yes, I have Uber gunnery skills, but still, the demios had more DPS and he was in a Demios and likely had Uber gunnery to. That was gravy for him until he could no longer hit me I played the range game. I set for speed and used my falloff as an advantage. I did less dps, but have won easily. Go light, fast, maybe passive tank. Set for escapability with cap boosters and MWD to avoid nasty NOS. Throw a NOS on to shut down a tackling frig. We minnie do have a DPS disadvantage, no problem for me, we also have ship advantages. It's not all about the guns. There are alot of factors to include on Minnie setups. Be experimental. And dont armor tank a Hurricane, wrong concept. Of course a Brutix will pwn that. It is a natural armor tanker. Cant think tank to much as minnie. Think somewhat tank, but push for speed and range control.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial
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Posted - 2006.12.21 16:17:00 -
[40]
Eh, if you really want to toast a brutix, just neut him to death.
Yea, you have no cap and cant rep. But he has no cap and cant shoot. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
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Riho
Red Wrath Exquisite Malevolance
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Posted - 2006.12.21 16:53:00 -
[41]
learn to play dude... hurricane > brutix... enyday
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Kagura Nikon
Minmatar The Black Dawn Gang
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Posted - 2006.12.21 16:55:00 -
[42]
Yes that is exaclty what i am saying. You can do it. But this put slimitations on your setup. you cant armor tank And teh armor tanked HUrricane is the ebst choice against most other opponents.. So most brutix pilots may attack a hurricane with little fear of facing onethat is setup for speed. If brute force doesn't solve your problem.. then you are not using enough!! |
Jacob Majestic
ISS Navy Task Force Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.12.21 16:58:00 -
[43]
People that cross-train Gallente from Minmatar are stupid, especially in the context of the Hurricane. Yes, the Brutix gets a one low-slot advantage. However, the Hurricane has so much going for it:
- Not a total pig like the Brutix - Can switch from doing almost as much KN/TH damage as the Brutix (Phased Plasma M and KN HAM) to doing even more damage against EM and EX (EMP and EM/EX HAM). - Doesn't use a drop of cap to use guns. People that are whining about the DPS difference obviously have never actually fired blasters before. Seriously, shut up.
Sign me up for the "Cross-training Minmatar from Gallente Club."
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Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer EVE Animal Control
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Posted - 2006.12.21 17:00:00 -
[44]
Im sick of vagabonds and have been waiting for quickfit to get an update...looks like it has, and Ill be tinkering with a huricane vaga replacement. ---------------------------------------- Friends Forever
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Vol Jbolaz
Sturmgrenadier Inc R i s e
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Posted - 2006.12.21 17:10:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Chris TheNinjaPirate
- hail, and tech 1 missiles, and drones: 342 dps on structure, which of course is assuming you are not fighting in falloff, which is very bad in a minmatar ship. so if you are fighting a brutix, trying to stay at 6km or so, your REAL DPS is maybe 224dps. and this ammo nerfs your tanking through capacitor use!?
Sorry, I'm sure other responses have addressed this, but I just have to say something.
Falloff is not bad. First off, there is no minimum range on turrets. The rumor that you can't hit closer than optimal minus falloff is completely false. Yes, it is true that the closer you are, the more tracking is a concern, but that has nothing to do with falloff.
Second, Minmatar weapons have the best falloff. Any turret can hit beyond optimal. At optimal + falloff, you only suffer a fifty percent penalty to hit based on range. Since the Hurricane is faster, he can dictate range, and thus he can fire in his falloff and outrange the Brutix.
Besides, the Brutix should be running NOS and webifiers and let his drones do the heavy lifting.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial
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Posted - 2006.12.21 17:44:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Vol Jbolaz
Originally by: Chris TheNinjaPirate
- hail, and tech 1 missiles, and drones: 342 dps on structure, which of course is assuming you are not fighting in falloff, which is very bad in a minmatar ship. so if you are fighting a brutix, trying to stay at 6km or so, your REAL DPS is maybe 224dps. and this ammo nerfs your tanking through capacitor use!?
Sorry, I'm sure other responses have addressed this, but I just have to say something.
Falloff is not bad. First off, there is no minimum range on turrets. The rumor that you can't hit closer than optimal minus falloff is completely false. Yes, it is true that the closer you are, the more tracking is a concern, but that has nothing to do with falloff.
Second, Minmatar weapons have the best falloff. Any turret can hit beyond optimal. At optimal + falloff, you only suffer a fifty percent penalty to hit based on range. Since the Hurricane is faster, he can dictate range, and thus he can fire in his falloff and outrange the Brutix.
Besides, the Brutix should be running NOS and webifiers and let his drones do the heavy lifting.
A brutix that lets its drones do the heavy lifting is a pretty worthless brutix, with that massive 50 m^3 drone bay and no drone bonus...
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg Im sick of vagabonds and have been waiting for quickfit to get an update...looks like it has, and Ill be tinkering with a huricane vaga replacement.
In which case, i will gladly take any vagabonds you do not want off your hand. Evemial me in game or setup a contract. I will trade you 1/1 for hurricanes. Heck, i would trade 2/1 ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
Dark Guardian
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Posted - 2006.12.21 17:45:00 -
[47]
One key point is that, if you know what ship you are facing (Brutix), and how it's setup (all blasters and drones in this case), you have already won half of the battle...
Blaster falloff is shorter than Autocannon, so stay close, but not within blaster optimal range. Fight between optimal and optimal+falloff, because the reduction in your DPS is less than the reduction of a blaster ship's dps. Check out the tracking guide, it can show you how falloff, optimal, target transversal speed, and signature radius officially work.
Since you also know you'll be facing drones (and may not have too many drones of your own), you might fit a smartbomb to take them out first, then launch your own drones (if the Hurri has any, I forgot). Many Gallente ships get lots of dps out of drones, so taking them out of the fight early is good. |
Rhamnousia
Caldari Templars of Light Eternal Rangers of Terror
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Posted - 2006.12.21 18:46:00 -
[48]
one problm vs. brutix is that drones aren't really the main source of dmg ... most dmg come from the guns, soo, if the hurricane pilot's stupid enuf to pay all attention to the drones, he'll let the brutix get close enuf to start the blasting ..
other than that, stay out of 6km from the brutix while running AB and web him urself, the brutix should go down fairly quickly. --------------------------------------- - yes, im a noob - yes, im a nut job - no, i dont give a .... about what u think of my noobness - now, tell me sumthing i dont know |
Fodderrr
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Posted - 2006.12.21 19:37:00 -
[49]
hurricane with barrages wins
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EPSILON DELTA
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Posted - 2006.12.21 21:30:00 -
[50]
Brutix might have higher blaster dps
but it only counts when its in range. its dps is 0 for all those time its flying to get into range while taking fire.
unless of course you set up the fight to favor the brutix, but that would be like setting up a fight where one player has mining laser in their high, of course you will win.
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Chris TheNinjaPirate
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.12.21 21:41:00 -
[51]
Originally by: slothe the ignorance is strong in this one...
dude its not all about dps
id fly a hurricaine against your brutix and win.
oh how ironic. you say i am ignorant. you say you would beat "my brutix" and yet i am not flying a brutix.
and then your sig says "Before complaining about any ship try flying Minmatar"
come on, mate...
* * * * * * * * * * * * sorry for my english, i am new with it |
Chris TheNinjaPirate
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.12.21 21:43:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Goumindong AC falloff rigs, +20% falloff
oh as you tell, im a somewhat new player. dont know the game very well, just getting started in pvp.
and im going to go spend 60mil per rig?
the expensiveness of rigs is caused by the still relatively rare components regulation... and so prices are high. very bad system for people trying to get into pvp.
* * * * * * * * * * * * sorry for my english, i am new with it |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial
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Posted - 2006.12.21 22:03:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Chris TheNinjaPirate
Originally by: Goumindong AC falloff rigs, +20% falloff
oh as you tell, im a somewhat new player. dont know the game very well, just getting started in pvp.
and im going to go spend 60mil per rig?
the expensiveness of rigs is caused by the still relatively rare components regulation... and so prices are high. very bad system for people trying to get into pvp.
They will go down, however, the point was showing how completly broken they are[and my word are they broken, Maelstrom w/ 34km falloff with Fusion! D:] not to show how they will magically solve your "problem" which isnt actualy a problem so much as a design feature.
AC's have a number of advantages versus both hybrids and pulse lasers, and minmatar have the resources to exploit these. Against blasters this advantage is range and cap use. Against pulse lasers this advantage is tracking and damage.
As well, minmatar have the speed to exploit these advantages, able to outrange the blasters and undercut the optimal of the Amarran ships.
Falloff bonuses are very dangerous things to dish out due to the lack of falloff penalties on tech 1 ammo. When looking at the "best tech 1" damage graphs for the different weapons, both blasters and autocannons[with a decent level of the +falloff skill] have their highest damage at all points with a single ammo type. While lasers have teirs where some ammo is better than others. When you start increasing this falloff even farther it breaks the range dynamic that exists[kindof, the longer fights get, the more pulse lasers get shafted] between the weapons.
You dont need fallof increases to "get into pvp", you just need a little bit of smarts, so that when you see pulse lasers firing at you, you get in really close and eat them up at your optimal while they cant hit you well due to your oribt speed, and when you see blasters shooting at you you stay outside of 5-6km and punish them for fighting deeper into their fallof.
That or an energy neut or two. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
Xori Ruscuv
Vendetta Underground Rule of Three
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Posted - 2006.12.21 22:06:00 -
[54]
Agreed, rigs are going to introduce some seriously overpowered ****...
And I agree that their build requirements are still too high. <flame on!>
It's great playing Caldari-online, isn't it?
This IS my main! I just did a portrait swap... |
Bellum Eternus
Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.12.21 22:19:00 -
[55]
To the OP: I don't see how you can't kill a Brutix with a Hurricane. Drop the 2 heavy launchers for 2 med nos, use your MWD on your Hurricane to dictate range there by forcing the Brutix to use his MWD and burn tons of cap, which you can afford to do and he can't. You're going to be slightly faster, he's going to burn through his cap charges and you'll eventually run him out of cap and kill him.
If at first you don't succeed, get a bigger hammer. |
Byzan Zwyth
Dark Centuri Inc. Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2006.12.21 22:21:00 -
[56]
I dont think a brutix can take down a hurricane with a respectable pilot without fitting rails. Blaster DPS means nothing unless you can get in range so you need a tackler or a stupid/slow target for it to be uber IMO ---------------------- Pointless forum slowing bandwidth hogging signature pic inc? |
Nahia Senne
Fortunis Novum
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Posted - 2006.12.21 22:43:00 -
[57]
what to do vs caldari tho... raven vs pest, pest will lose because even at optimal its dps and tank are not enough.
Make ECCM viable! Give it 25% to scanning resolution! |
HankMurphy
Pelennor Swarm Eternal Rangers of Terror
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Posted - 2006.12.21 22:55:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Nahia Senne what to do vs caldari tho... raven vs pest, pest will lose because even at optimal its dps and tank are not enough.
if each pilot has 5mil SP, then yeah, i would say your correct.
if each pilot had 20mil+ SP, i'm putting my money on the tempest.
not saying everytime for everyone, but many a raven has fallen to my pests. just an observation from experience.
i have been known to measure my tanks in 'ravens' yeah bob, that machariel weighs in at atleast 2.7 ravens
(copywrite is pending approval :P) if your in the tempest, you need to know wtf your doing. it is not a raven.
that being said BACK TO TOPIC tempest, phoon, hurricane, vagabond etc etc... all are deadly if you dont fly it like a douchebag. but dont think 'its close range, ok' and try to survive vs drakes and brutix's by setting keep at range to 4km and just f1-f8.... you'll die everytime.
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Nahia Senne
Fortunis Novum
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Posted - 2006.12.21 23:33:00 -
[59]
Originally by: HankMurphy not saying everytime for everyone, but many a raven has fallen to my pests. just an observation from experience.
i have been known to measure my tanks in 'ravens' yeah bob, that machariel weighs in at atleast 2.7 ravens
(copywrite is pending approval :P) if your in the tempest, you need to know wtf your doing. it is not a raven.
and many a bs has fallen to my cruisers, which doesn't solve my problem
20mio raven vs 20mio pest, you get two fully t2 ships with neither ship getting the upper hand. i would actually say that pest is at disadvantage here because using its t2 ammo is pointless as it deals damage to ravens strongest resistance.
in the end only thing pest has on raven is the ability to mwd outa scrambling range before it is too late?
Make ECCM viable! Give it 25% to scanning resolution! |
HankMurphy
Pelennor Swarm Eternal Rangers of Terror
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Posted - 2006.12.21 23:51:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Nahia Senne
in the end only thing pest has on raven is the ability to mwd outa scrambling range before it is too late?
well, its best not to get in a fight you cant win to begin w/. sounds like you need to just steer clear of ravens till you have a pest setup you think you can get the upper hand w/
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