Pages: 1 2 3 :: [one page] |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Chris TheNinjaPirate
Amarr
|
Posted - 2006.12.20 21:01:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Chris TheNinjaPirate on 20/12/2006 21:01:39 Edited by: Chris TheNinjaPirate on 20/12/2006 21:01:11 in quickfit i was tinkering with these ships. what i found is a bit startling to me.
i assumed t2 gunnery skills, and other reasonable skills (lets say around 4 million points in hybrid tree, and 4 million in projectiles tree).
set up a brutix: 7x heavy electron blaster tech 2 no damage mod (tank = 2x tech 2 mar, and 3x hardeners, or 2x eanm tech 2 and damage control) 5x tech 2 medium drones
set up a hurricane: 6x vulcan tech 2, 2x limos heavy launchers one damage mod (tank = 2x tech 2 mar, 2x tech 2 eanm, and damage control) 3x tech 2 medium drones
ok, so then i loaded them up with ammo. ALL DPS FIGURES HERE ARE ON STRUCTURE. (and i have very poor missiles skills ) hurricane: - hail, and tech 1 missiles, and drones: 342 dps on structure, which of course is assuming you are not fighting in falloff, which is very bad in a minmatar ship. so if you are fighting a brutix, trying to stay at 6km or so, your REAL DPS is maybe 224dps. and this ammo nerfs your tanking through capacitor use!? - barrage, and tech 1 missiles, and drones: the only point here to load barrage is to fly outside of web range? so say 12km range, 240dps. - emp, and tech 1 missiles, and drones: maybe you want to fly at 7km again to avoid damage from brutix, so about 250dps
now the brutix: - antimatter and drones: at 1km, the brutix can do 400ish dps. holy crap?! at 6km (if hurricane manages to dictate range), then 220 dps. - void and drones: at 1km, 450ish dps. at 6km, much much less, at 140dps.
so, the conclusions: why is it that hurricane's damage is so poor, EVEN WITH A DAMAGE MOD?? to survive, the hurricane MUST dictate range. however, even when it can dictate range, its dps isn't much better than the brutix dps.
if the brutix gets in close even with heavy tank instead of damage mod, it is gg for the hurricane the brutix can easily tank the hurricane's damage while the hurricane dies.
so why does hurricane end up with tech 1 emp ammo being better than hail? why does hurricane get only poor dps? what if it gets caught in a web, it will not be able to dictate range, and then the brutix will just have it as a snack!
is the ONLY way to play the hurricane with nanos and inertia stabs in lows, and MWD, orbiting like a stabber?
brutix > all
where is the wrong in my analysis? or are all minmatar ships subject to this low dps???
even missiles ships have similar dps than us, and THEY always hit. especially at short range where we usually fight, there is not worry about flight times.
* * * * * * * * * * * * sorry for my english, i am new with it |
Mutant Caldari
|
Posted - 2006.12.20 21:16:00 -
[2]
Try the Brutix with 7x Neutron II Blasters and you will see true damage potential .Btw Null is better for longer range then Void.
|
Chris TheNinjaPirate
Amarr
|
Posted - 2006.12.20 21:22:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Mutant Caldari Try the Brutix with 7x Neutron II Blasters and you will see true damage potential .Btw Null is better for longer range then Void.
yes... even with electrons though, brutix can then tank and still the hurricane has little chance to beat it.
is this how minmatar battleships are as well, too small of a dps to win conflicts?
* * * * * * * * * * * * sorry for my english, i am new with it |
pigofparadise
Minmatar Wasted Reavers Tre Kroner
|
Posted - 2006.12.20 21:33:00 -
[4]
Yep. Its great being Minnie, aint it
|
Mutant Caldari
|
Posted - 2006.12.20 21:35:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Chris TheNinjaPirate
Originally by: Mutant Caldari Try the Brutix with 7x Neutron II Blasters and you will see true damage potential .Btw Null is better for longer range then Void.
yes... even with electrons though, brutix can then tank and still the hurricane has little chance to beat it.
is this how minmatar battleships are as well, too small of a dps to win conflicts?
I am guessing you have never flown a t2 Fitted Tempest.Those things can have gank and tank and just rock
|
Christopher Dalran
|
Posted - 2006.12.20 21:36:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Chris TheNinjaPirate
Originally by: Mutant Caldari Try the Brutix with 7x Neutron II Blasters and you will see true damage potential .Btw Null is better for longer range then Void.
yes... even with electrons though, brutix can then tank and still the hurricane has little chance to beat it.
is this how minmatar battleships are as well, too small of a dps to win conflicts?
Minmatar ships need to try and drag fights out as long as possible to give the enemy time to run his cap energy down, yes their own cap will drain down too but projectiles dont need cap to fire so use that to your advantage.
You can also try using energy neuts, they drain you cap too but they drain 2x as fast as NOS and you dont need it to fire anyway.
|
Sienis
The Flying Daggers Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
|
Posted - 2006.12.20 21:36:00 -
[7]
well... at least hurricane looks better than brutix
|
The Masia
|
Posted - 2006.12.20 21:53:00 -
[8]
Quote: so, the conclusions: why is it that hurricane's damage is so poor, EVEN WITH A DAMAGE MOD?? to survive, the hurricane MUST dictate range. however, even when it can dictate range, its dps isn't much better than the brutix dps.
if the brutix gets in close even with heavy tank instead of damage mod, it is gg for the hurricane Rolling Eyes the brutix can easily tank the hurricane's damage while the hurricane dies.
Let me first state. "Welcome to Eve-Online".
Secondly, I understand that you do not know how to fly some ships. Posting sometimes gives you feedback on what you might be doing wrong. In this, I would like to point out that the Hurricane is not setup to fly at the same ranges as the Brutix with blasters fitted. You must understand that if a Brutix with Blasters can't hit your Hurricane in battle. Then you are on the path to winning the fight. Using the same DPS numbers you quoted that obviously would be incorrect in a real fight, the Brutix still would not be able to tank or atleast get in range for the duration of the fight. Keep in mind, cap injector setups only last as long as the cap injector charges.
To sum this up, Hurricane can kite the Brutix to death. Learn to play.
|
Xori Ruscuv
Vendetta Underground Rule of Three
|
Posted - 2006.12.20 22:27:00 -
[9]
Funny...
I'm "switching" to Minmatar. Sounds like you want to switch to Gallente.
Funny how the grass is always greener on the other side :)
Anyway, the previous posters are right - the idea is to fight in falloff and keep the Brutix from GETTING close. Barrage - sit out a ways like you said, and keep your range. If he hits MWD toward you, hit your MWD, web him if he gets close, etc.
Of course this takes practice. I can't do it reliably. Minmatar ships take a great deal of "rl" skill to fly.
They also take a great deal of SP. You've gotta have at least mediocre missile skills to supplement the DPS if you are going to fly the Hurricane as you described, for instance. And drone skills. And you'll need decent nav skills in order to amplify your speed advantage... because after all, it IS the speed and the falloff that are your tools.
It's great playing Caldari-online, isn't it?
This IS my main! I just did a portrait swap... |
ViperVenom
Minmatar Fast Food Corp Novus Ordos Seclorum
|
Posted - 2006.12.20 22:40:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Mutant Caldari
Originally by: Chris TheNinjaPirate
Originally by: Mutant Caldari Try the Brutix with 7x Neutron II Blasters and you will see true damage potential .Btw Null is better for longer range then Void.
yes... even with electrons though, brutix can then tank and still the hurricane has little chance to beat it.
is this how minmatar battleships are as well, too small of a dps to win conflicts?
I am guessing you have never flown a t2 Fitted Tempest.Those things can have gank and tank and just rock
The AC tempest is the mother load of DPS in range. 200 and up baby.
|
|
Aeaus
Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction
|
Posted - 2006.12.20 22:56:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Xori Ruscuv Funny...
Funny how the grass is always greener on the other side :)
Not if you're switching from Amarr. I'm doing that right now, and... I'm loving it baby.
Tanking Survivability Calculator |
Xori Ruscuv
Vendetta Underground Rule of Three
|
Posted - 2006.12.20 23:02:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 20/12/2006 23:01:59
Originally by: Aeaus
Originally by: Xori Ruscuv Funny...
Funny how the grass is always greener on the other side :)
Not if you're switching from Amarr. I'm doing that right now, and... I'm loving it baby.
Understood!
It's great playing Caldari-online, isn't it?
This IS my main! I just did a portrait swap... |
Chris TheNinjaPirate
Amarr
|
Posted - 2006.12.20 23:46:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Chris TheNinjaPirate on 20/12/2006 23:57:45 Edited by: Chris TheNinjaPirate on 20/12/2006 23:55:10 Edited by: Chris TheNinjaPirate on 20/12/2006 23:53:12 Edited by: Chris TheNinjaPirate on 20/12/2006 23:46:37
Originally by: ViperVenom The AC tempest is the mother load of DPS in range. 200 and up baby.
200 is good??? when you are up against ravens that do 500 to 680 dps, and a megathron or hyperion that can do 900 dps.
and the tempest cant tank as well as either of those?! ooo it has an extra mid slot. i dont care, move it to lows so it can fit a damage mod and have a hope of doing some damage.
2x LAR II, 3x EANM, DC... no damage mod?
* * * * * * * * * * * * sorry for my english, i am new with it |
HankMurphy
Pelennor Swarm Eternal Rangers of Terror
|
Posted - 2006.12.20 23:57:00 -
[14]
my money is on the hurricane pilot if he can keep his speed up / not fly like a moron.
|
Lucifer Fellblade
Ore Mongers SMASH Alliance
|
Posted - 2006.12.21 00:12:00 -
[15]
Drones die very fast to ACs and a web.
Blasters also have a small optimal, and once your outside that, he's gonna be hitting you with nothing, whereas ACs have huge falloff so just fly around outside web range and pwn him.
Short of it, if you dictate range against a blaster ship, it's a big pile of floating metal with some nice shiny lights on it. ------
|
Vasiliyan
PAX Interstellar Services Anarchy Empire
|
Posted - 2006.12.21 01:25:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Lucifer Fellblade
Short of it, if you dictate range against a blaster ship, it's a big pile of floating metal with some nice shiny lights on it.
Pretty much. It's very hard to get into a situation where you can use blasters effectively, and once you do you're inside web, nos and scram range and your only remaining tactical option is to swear louder.
|
Chris TheNinjaPirate
Amarr
|
Posted - 2006.12.21 03:27:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Vasiliyan Pretty much. It's very hard to get into a situation where you can use blasters effectively
but then you have so much dps. megathron 900 dps, brutix 400 or 500. everything killed so fast they can not keep up.
how is it that autocannons are balanced? missiles do more damage, better selection of damage types, and always hit. blasters are better with damage. minmatar just has half-arsed tanks, half-arsed weapons...
yea, yea, "learn to play"...
* * * * * * * * * * * * sorry for my english, i am new with it |
HankMurphy
Pelennor Swarm Eternal Rangers of Terror
|
Posted - 2006.12.21 03:55:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Chris TheNinjaPirate just has half-arsed tanks, half-arsed weapons...
shhhh... not half arsed , its supposed to be Versatile
|
The Masia
|
Posted - 2006.12.21 04:17:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Chris TheNinjaPirate
Originally by: Vasiliyan Pretty much. It's very hard to get into a situation where you can use blasters effectively
but then you have so much dps. megathron 900 dps, brutix 400 or 500. everything killed so fast they can not keep up.
how is it that autocannons are balanced? missiles do more damage, better selection of damage types, and always hit. blasters are better with damage. minmatar just has half-arsed tanks, half-arsed weapons...
yea, yea, "learn to play"...
All you're seeing is the damage. You're not opening your eyes to anything else. Blasters use cap thus use energy. Blasters also are extream short ranged thus need speed. Missiles can hit everything yes, but one damage type (hit lesser than guns in some cases).
Minmatar has great short-mid ranges. That's there advantage, being in your blasters extream falloff or out of your range. Even worse, forcing you to switch ammo. The minmatar tank is exactly half-assed. It's not Amarrian influenced like most.
Just for the record, we do hit hard for our ranges. Autocannon is by far the most flawless gun if used correctly. Blasters will kill the autocannon but luckly for us, minmatar ships are the fastest and the most hybrid.
|
AcheLone
Caldari Sole Survivor Agency
|
Posted - 2006.12.21 06:48:00 -
[20]
Originally by: The Masia
Originally by: Chris TheNinjaPirate
Originally by: Vasiliyan Pretty much. It's very hard to get into a situation where you can use blasters effectively
but then you have so much dps. megathron 900 dps, brutix 400 or 500. everything killed so fast they can not keep up.
how is it that autocannons are balanced? missiles do more damage, better selection of damage types, and always hit. blasters are better with damage. minmatar just has half-arsed tanks, half-arsed weapons...
yea, yea, "learn to play"...
All you're seeing is the damage. You're not opening your eyes to anything else. Blasters use cap thus use energy. Blasters also are extream short ranged thus need speed. Missiles can hit everything yes, but one damage type (hit lesser than guns in some cases).
Minmatar has great short-mid ranges. That's there advantage, being in your blasters extream falloff or out of your range. Even worse, forcing you to switch ammo. The minmatar tank is exactly half-assed. It's not Amarrian influenced like most.
Just for the record, we do hit hard for our ranges. Autocannon is by far the most flawless gun if used correctly. Blasters will kill the autocannon but luckly for us, minmatar ships are the fastest and the most hybrid.
You hit the mark mate.
|
|
Jaketh Ivanes
Amarr 1st Praetorian Guard
|
Posted - 2006.12.21 08:24:00 -
[21]
Another bonus to AC's is, they are allmost immune to tracking disruptors. Tried to kill an AC boat by using 2 TD's.. I still shredded to death. Not sure how TD's affect blasters/rails, but they really kill lasers.
|
Miklas Laces
A.N.A.R.C.H.I.C.A
|
Posted - 2006.12.21 08:28:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Chris TheNinjaPirate in quickfit i was tinkering with these ships. what i found is a bit startling to me.
Blasters have more damage, autocannons have more range and don't use cap. What's startling ?
|
Kagura Nikon
Minmatar The Black Dawn Gang
|
Posted - 2006.12.21 09:41:00 -
[23]
Things would be balanced if tehre were mods to extend falloff. Because as it is now its quite hard to keep distance apropriated (needs to be too close to web limit) and you NEED an MWD or AB and dual web. If brute force doesn't solve your problem.. then you are not using enough!! |
Davros Johnstone
The Sanctum
|
Posted - 2006.12.21 09:54:00 -
[24]
If a hurricane gets witinh 5km of a blaster brutix, he deserves to die. If you don't have the brains for matar, go caldari.
|
Kagura Nikon
Minmatar The Black Dawn Gang
|
Posted - 2006.12.21 09:57:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Davros Johnstone If a hurricane gets witinh 5km of a blaster brutix, he deserves to die. If you don't have the brains for matar, go caldari.
that is not so simple. REstrain a lot your setups .
Also if AC are supposed to fight always at 8 km.. why dont they have an optimum of 10km and a falloff of 2 km? Its completely unfair that all races can boost their weapons range, all but minmatar. If brute force doesn't solve your problem.. then you are not using enough!! |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial
|
Posted - 2006.12.21 10:44:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Goumindong on 21/12/2006 10:50:07
Originally by: Kagura Nikon
Originally by: Davros Johnstone If a hurricane gets witinh 5km of a blaster brutix, he deserves to die. If you don't have the brains for matar, go caldari.
that is not so simple. REstrain a lot your setups .
Also if AC are supposed to fight always at 8 km.. why dont they have an optimum of 10km and a falloff of 2 km? Its completely unfair that all races can boost their weapons range, all but minmatar.
You mean "all races can boost their range except Caldari, Minmatar, and Gallente" right? Because there are no missile speed boosts, and Gallente's max range is just as bad in the short range as Minmatars are.
But really, do you want to spend a mid or low slot for .7km more range[HP w/ MF]? At the moment damage type is the only consideration due to high falloff.
There are reasons that people dont fit tracking computers and enhancers on short range ships, even Amarran ones.
Do you really want to be more susceptable to tracking disruptors? do you want to have your maximum range with high damage ammo be in the 7km range?
But yea, it would be great if ACs could compete with pulse lasers for range... Well, if would be great for AC's at least, it would be devastating to the ammarran vessels which are much harder to fit than the minmatar[or gallente for that matter], slower than the minmatar, heavier than the minmatar, deal less damage than the minmatar[220's+ lvl 4 RoF bonus > Heavy Pulse Damage, RAW], do worse damage types than ACs, use more capacitor[read, actualy use capacator] than the minmatar, in return for gaining a small optimal range bonus over the minmatar[larger as ship sizes increase] for pulse lasers.
If minmatar had longer range there would literally be zero downsizes to autocannons. There already are very little problems with the weapons, and as minmatar ships are faster, easier to fit and able to dictate range this advantage play itself out well. It does make it harder to fly minmatar against mixed opponents[amarr want to get as far away as possible, gallente want to get up close, minmatar want to try and skirt the middle] and it does mean that you cant use the same tactics against every ship you face, but the ships are strong and do have advantages if you just use them. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
Kagura Nikon
Minmatar The Black Dawn Gang
|
Posted - 2006.12.21 10:52:00 -
[27]
But all other races can fight within theyr optimal. Minmatar cant! And they can boost this optimal if they want to stay out of web range. matar can't If we had at least a module to give 5-7% more falloff I would fore SURE fit 1 or 2 in my rupture or hurricane. If brute force doesn't solve your problem.. then you are not using enough!! |
Sonos SAGD
Minmatar Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2006.12.21 10:57:00 -
[28]
i would fit some nos on the hurricane.
if your missile skills suck, just like mine do you can stop them from shooting or tanking which is very bad for them
|
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial
|
Posted - 2006.12.21 11:00:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Goumindong on 21/12/2006 11:01:29
Originally by: Kagura Nikon But all other races can fight within theyr optimal. Minmatar cant! And they can boost this optimal if they want to stay out of web range. matar can't If we had at least a module to give 5-7% more falloff I would fore SURE fit 1 or 2 in my rupture or hurricane.
AC falloff rigs, +20% falloff
Also, minmatar can fight within their omptimal, it is just unwise to do so against blaster ships. It is perfectly good to do so against laser ships.
---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
slothe
Caldari Forsaken Empire
|
Posted - 2006.12.21 11:10:00 -
[30]
the ignorance is strong in this one...
dude its not all about dps
id fly a hurricaine against your brutix and win.
Before complaining about any ship try flying Minmatar |
|
Gevuldekoek
|
Posted - 2006.12.21 11:22:00 -
[31]
Originally by: pigofparadise Yep. Its great being Minnie, aint it
Yeah boohoo poor Minmatar Fit mwd stay out of webber range ktnx.
|
Reto
The Last Resort
|
Posted - 2006.12.21 11:39:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Kagura Nikon
Originally by: Davros Johnstone If a hurricane gets witinh 5km of a blaster brutix, he deserves to die. If you don't have the brains for matar, go caldari.
that is not so simple. REstrain a lot your setups .
Also if AC are supposed to fight always at 8 km.. why dont they have an optimum of 10km and a falloff of 2 km? Its completely unfair that all races can boost their weapons range, all but minmatar.
boosting ur optimal increases ur overall range....ur overall range is optimal + falloff. not falloff or optimal on its own...so if ur optimal increases the falloff range is added ontop of ur optimal range resulting in a higher overall range.
Originally by: s4mp3r0r "Hey man, you're mom has a cruise missile".
|
Kagura Nikon
Minmatar The Black Dawn Gang
|
Posted - 2006.12.21 11:46:00 -
[33]
Boosting 2k is not best way to be happy. If brute force doesn't solve your problem.. then you are not using enough!! |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial
|
Posted - 2006.12.21 12:08:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Reto
Originally by: Kagura Nikon
Originally by: Davros Johnstone If a hurricane gets witinh 5km of a blaster brutix, he deserves to die. If you don't have the brains for matar, go caldari.
that is not so simple. REstrain a lot your setups .
Also if AC are supposed to fight always at 8 km.. why dont they have an optimum of 10km and a falloff of 2 km? Its completely unfair that all races can boost their weapons range, all but minmatar.
boosting ur optimal increases ur overall range....ur overall range is optimal + falloff. not falloff or optimal on its own...so if ur optimal increases the falloff range is added ontop of ur optimal range resulting in a higher overall range.
Yes, the complaint it that overall range is not modified enough by ammo type or by optimal enhancers.
To respond to that complaint with an examination of falloff rigs[since autocannons have so little PG use they can actualy use them]
Falloff rigs should modify this a bit, highly skilled pilots in ships that grant ROF bonuses , dual 180 autocannons do about 1.5% less DoT than 220s[who share the same relationship to 425s, though it should be noted this only applies in fairly long battles as otherwise reloading and clip size do not factor into the equation, and that the typical relationship is about 5% DPS between the weapons barring reloading issues, which with the new RoF changes are not usualy nessesary] and all of them have the same falloff of 8000 with differences of less than 500 meters for optimal range.
The AC falloff rigs grant a 15% bonus to falloff with tech 1[which I am sure you can fit 3 on a ship, i cant check whether or not you can fit 3 tech II on a ship though] and you ought to be able to fit 3 on a ship. So for 117 PG[maximum, 101.871 minimum] you can have a weapon, that at max skills has an optimal range of 1.2 kilometers and a maximum falloff of 15208.25km[tech 1, tech II rigs=17280km] with Hail[if unchanged in range benefits from current item database], or an optimal of 2.4 KM with a falloff of 22920.5 with Barrage.[25920 tech II]
To compare with lasers, a 3 optimal Heavy Pulse Laser II with multifrequency will hit 15.42 KM [Optimal+fallof] max with a 10.42 optimal range and 5km of falloff. Not that you can afford the 15% minimum pg increase with Heavy Pulses. Scorch would hit 30.4 KM optimal[which actualy could be usefull now that i get the numbers down, though compared to the falloff rigs for AC's, its nothing as there is no reason to believe that falloff bonuses are stacking penalized]
Numbers for the PG use of 220s and 425s would be:
[no skills/max skills] All numbers rounded up to nearest half PG
220 vulcan II: [146.5/127.5] 425 Auto II : [205/178.5]
Maximum falloff ranges of course would be the same.
So look for those rigs[when prices come down of course], train a few skills up, and enjoy your 15km falloff hail ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
Kagura Nikon
Minmatar The Black Dawn Gang
|
Posted - 2006.12.21 12:11:00 -
[35]
yes, when rigs have reasonable prices it will be OK, until then....
Something that could be done is.. for AC keep al with same optimal and change falloff between 180-220-425 If brute force doesn't solve your problem.. then you are not using enough!! |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial
|
Posted - 2006.12.21 12:19:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Kagura Nikon yes, when rigs have reasonable prices it will be OK, until then....
Something that could be done is.. for AC keep al with same optimal and change falloff between 180-220-425
O.K!
O.K!
Are you freaking kidding me, 15km falloff with freaking fusion. My word, that is freaking disgusting, you should not be outranging pulse lasers with freaking autocannons.
Numbers should be amended from above.
Max falloff will be 16.56[2 tech 1, 1 tech 1] and Hail now has a falloff penalty, halving that bonus.
No, there is no problem about where autocannons do damage, in order to maintain balance[what little of it there is, AC's are very strong] they need to not out range pulse lasers[especialy since they outdamage them!] and they need to not out-damage blasters while out-ranging them.
The falloff rigs are disgustingly good for AC boats, and its beyond what anyone could consider "OK" ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
Kagura Nikon
Minmatar The Black Dawn Gang
|
Posted - 2006.12.21 12:21:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Kagura Nikon yes, when rigs have reasonable prices it will be OK, until then....
Something that could be done is.. for AC keep al with same optimal and change falloff between 180-220-425
O.K!
O.K!
Are you freaking kidding me, 15km falloff with freaking fusion. My word, that is freaking disgusting, you should not be outranging pulse lasers with freaking autocannons.
Numbers should be amended from above.
Max falloff will be 16.56[2 tech 1, 1 tech 1] and Hail now has a falloff penalty, halving that bonus.
No, there is no problem about where autocannons do damage, in order to maintain balance[what little of it there is, AC's are very strong] they need to not out range pulse lasers[especialy since they outdamage them!] and they need to not out-damage blasters while out-ranging them.
The falloff rigs are disgustingly good for AC boats, and its beyond what anyone could consider "OK"
dont forget that damage is reduced in falloff! And i fell that falloff will be stack nerfed. If brute force doesn't solve your problem.. then you are not using enough!! |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial
|
Posted - 2006.12.21 12:25:00 -
[38]
Edited by: Goumindong on 21/12/2006 12:25:38 yes, i know that damage is reduced in falloff. But it is not reduced that much, and every time you increase falloff you increase damage at the static range underneat that fallof, which is why extended falloffs are dangerous in short range encounters.
Seriously, if autocannons didnt have enough advantages... ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
Omega Bloodstone
Battlestars Imperium Alliance
|
Posted - 2006.12.21 15:46:00 -
[39]
Have you seen a Vaga pwn a Demios with 180 AC II's. I have. I've done it, not saying that I have not lost as well on the same encounter...I have. But it goes back and forth. Yes, I have Uber gunnery skills, but still, the demios had more DPS and he was in a Demios and likely had Uber gunnery to. That was gravy for him until he could no longer hit me I played the range game. I set for speed and used my falloff as an advantage. I did less dps, but have won easily. Go light, fast, maybe passive tank. Set for escapability with cap boosters and MWD to avoid nasty NOS. Throw a NOS on to shut down a tackling frig. We minnie do have a DPS disadvantage, no problem for me, we also have ship advantages. It's not all about the guns. There are alot of factors to include on Minnie setups. Be experimental. And dont armor tank a Hurricane, wrong concept. Of course a Brutix will pwn that. It is a natural armor tanker. Cant think tank to much as minnie. Think somewhat tank, but push for speed and range control.
|
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial
|
Posted - 2006.12.21 16:17:00 -
[40]
Eh, if you really want to toast a brutix, just neut him to death.
Yea, you have no cap and cant rep. But he has no cap and cant shoot. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
|
Riho
Red Wrath Exquisite Malevolance
|
Posted - 2006.12.21 16:53:00 -
[41]
learn to play dude... hurricane > brutix... enyday
|
Kagura Nikon
Minmatar The Black Dawn Gang
|
Posted - 2006.12.21 16:55:00 -
[42]
Yes that is exaclty what i am saying. You can do it. But this put slimitations on your setup. you cant armor tank And teh armor tanked HUrricane is the ebst choice against most other opponents.. So most brutix pilots may attack a hurricane with little fear of facing onethat is setup for speed. If brute force doesn't solve your problem.. then you are not using enough!! |
Jacob Majestic
ISS Navy Task Force Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
|
Posted - 2006.12.21 16:58:00 -
[43]
People that cross-train Gallente from Minmatar are stupid, especially in the context of the Hurricane. Yes, the Brutix gets a one low-slot advantage. However, the Hurricane has so much going for it:
- Not a total pig like the Brutix - Can switch from doing almost as much KN/TH damage as the Brutix (Phased Plasma M and KN HAM) to doing even more damage against EM and EX (EMP and EM/EX HAM). - Doesn't use a drop of cap to use guns. People that are whining about the DPS difference obviously have never actually fired blasters before. Seriously, shut up.
Sign me up for the "Cross-training Minmatar from Gallente Club."
|
Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer EVE Animal Control
|
Posted - 2006.12.21 17:00:00 -
[44]
Im sick of vagabonds and have been waiting for quickfit to get an update...looks like it has, and Ill be tinkering with a huricane vaga replacement. ---------------------------------------- Friends Forever
|
Vol Jbolaz
Sturmgrenadier Inc R i s e
|
Posted - 2006.12.21 17:10:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Chris TheNinjaPirate
- hail, and tech 1 missiles, and drones: 342 dps on structure, which of course is assuming you are not fighting in falloff, which is very bad in a minmatar ship. so if you are fighting a brutix, trying to stay at 6km or so, your REAL DPS is maybe 224dps. and this ammo nerfs your tanking through capacitor use!?
Sorry, I'm sure other responses have addressed this, but I just have to say something.
Falloff is not bad. First off, there is no minimum range on turrets. The rumor that you can't hit closer than optimal minus falloff is completely false. Yes, it is true that the closer you are, the more tracking is a concern, but that has nothing to do with falloff.
Second, Minmatar weapons have the best falloff. Any turret can hit beyond optimal. At optimal + falloff, you only suffer a fifty percent penalty to hit based on range. Since the Hurricane is faster, he can dictate range, and thus he can fire in his falloff and outrange the Brutix.
Besides, the Brutix should be running NOS and webifiers and let his drones do the heavy lifting.
|
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial
|
Posted - 2006.12.21 17:44:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Vol Jbolaz
Originally by: Chris TheNinjaPirate
- hail, and tech 1 missiles, and drones: 342 dps on structure, which of course is assuming you are not fighting in falloff, which is very bad in a minmatar ship. so if you are fighting a brutix, trying to stay at 6km or so, your REAL DPS is maybe 224dps. and this ammo nerfs your tanking through capacitor use!?
Sorry, I'm sure other responses have addressed this, but I just have to say something.
Falloff is not bad. First off, there is no minimum range on turrets. The rumor that you can't hit closer than optimal minus falloff is completely false. Yes, it is true that the closer you are, the more tracking is a concern, but that has nothing to do with falloff.
Second, Minmatar weapons have the best falloff. Any turret can hit beyond optimal. At optimal + falloff, you only suffer a fifty percent penalty to hit based on range. Since the Hurricane is faster, he can dictate range, and thus he can fire in his falloff and outrange the Brutix.
Besides, the Brutix should be running NOS and webifiers and let his drones do the heavy lifting.
A brutix that lets its drones do the heavy lifting is a pretty worthless brutix, with that massive 50 m^3 drone bay and no drone bonus...
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg Im sick of vagabonds and have been waiting for quickfit to get an update...looks like it has, and Ill be tinkering with a huricane vaga replacement.
In which case, i will gladly take any vagabonds you do not want off your hand. Evemial me in game or setup a contract. I will trade you 1/1 for hurricanes. Heck, i would trade 2/1 ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
Dark Guardian
|
Posted - 2006.12.21 17:45:00 -
[47]
One key point is that, if you know what ship you are facing (Brutix), and how it's setup (all blasters and drones in this case), you have already won half of the battle...
Blaster falloff is shorter than Autocannon, so stay close, but not within blaster optimal range. Fight between optimal and optimal+falloff, because the reduction in your DPS is less than the reduction of a blaster ship's dps. Check out the tracking guide, it can show you how falloff, optimal, target transversal speed, and signature radius officially work.
Since you also know you'll be facing drones (and may not have too many drones of your own), you might fit a smartbomb to take them out first, then launch your own drones (if the Hurri has any, I forgot). Many Gallente ships get lots of dps out of drones, so taking them out of the fight early is good. |
Rhamnousia
Caldari Templars of Light Eternal Rangers of Terror
|
Posted - 2006.12.21 18:46:00 -
[48]
one problm vs. brutix is that drones aren't really the main source of dmg ... most dmg come from the guns, soo, if the hurricane pilot's stupid enuf to pay all attention to the drones, he'll let the brutix get close enuf to start the blasting ..
other than that, stay out of 6km from the brutix while running AB and web him urself, the brutix should go down fairly quickly. --------------------------------------- - yes, im a noob - yes, im a nut job - no, i dont give a .... about what u think of my noobness - now, tell me sumthing i dont know |
Fodderrr
|
Posted - 2006.12.21 19:37:00 -
[49]
hurricane with barrages wins
|
EPSILON DELTA
|
Posted - 2006.12.21 21:30:00 -
[50]
Brutix might have higher blaster dps
but it only counts when its in range. its dps is 0 for all those time its flying to get into range while taking fire.
unless of course you set up the fight to favor the brutix, but that would be like setting up a fight where one player has mining laser in their high, of course you will win.
|
|
Chris TheNinjaPirate
Amarr
|
Posted - 2006.12.21 21:41:00 -
[51]
Originally by: slothe the ignorance is strong in this one...
dude its not all about dps
id fly a hurricaine against your brutix and win.
oh how ironic. you say i am ignorant. you say you would beat "my brutix" and yet i am not flying a brutix.
and then your sig says "Before complaining about any ship try flying Minmatar"
come on, mate...
* * * * * * * * * * * * sorry for my english, i am new with it |
Chris TheNinjaPirate
Amarr
|
Posted - 2006.12.21 21:43:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Goumindong AC falloff rigs, +20% falloff
oh as you tell, im a somewhat new player. dont know the game very well, just getting started in pvp.
and im going to go spend 60mil per rig?
the expensiveness of rigs is caused by the still relatively rare components regulation... and so prices are high. very bad system for people trying to get into pvp.
* * * * * * * * * * * * sorry for my english, i am new with it |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial
|
Posted - 2006.12.21 22:03:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Chris TheNinjaPirate
Originally by: Goumindong AC falloff rigs, +20% falloff
oh as you tell, im a somewhat new player. dont know the game very well, just getting started in pvp.
and im going to go spend 60mil per rig?
the expensiveness of rigs is caused by the still relatively rare components regulation... and so prices are high. very bad system for people trying to get into pvp.
They will go down, however, the point was showing how completly broken they are[and my word are they broken, Maelstrom w/ 34km falloff with Fusion! D:] not to show how they will magically solve your "problem" which isnt actualy a problem so much as a design feature.
AC's have a number of advantages versus both hybrids and pulse lasers, and minmatar have the resources to exploit these. Against blasters this advantage is range and cap use. Against pulse lasers this advantage is tracking and damage.
As well, minmatar have the speed to exploit these advantages, able to outrange the blasters and undercut the optimal of the Amarran ships.
Falloff bonuses are very dangerous things to dish out due to the lack of falloff penalties on tech 1 ammo. When looking at the "best tech 1" damage graphs for the different weapons, both blasters and autocannons[with a decent level of the +falloff skill] have their highest damage at all points with a single ammo type. While lasers have teirs where some ammo is better than others. When you start increasing this falloff even farther it breaks the range dynamic that exists[kindof, the longer fights get, the more pulse lasers get shafted] between the weapons.
You dont need fallof increases to "get into pvp", you just need a little bit of smarts, so that when you see pulse lasers firing at you, you get in really close and eat them up at your optimal while they cant hit you well due to your oribt speed, and when you see blasters shooting at you you stay outside of 5-6km and punish them for fighting deeper into their fallof.
That or an energy neut or two. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
Xori Ruscuv
Vendetta Underground Rule of Three
|
Posted - 2006.12.21 22:06:00 -
[54]
Agreed, rigs are going to introduce some seriously overpowered ****...
And I agree that their build requirements are still too high. <flame on!>
It's great playing Caldari-online, isn't it?
This IS my main! I just did a portrait swap... |
Bellum Eternus
Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra
|
Posted - 2006.12.21 22:19:00 -
[55]
To the OP: I don't see how you can't kill a Brutix with a Hurricane. Drop the 2 heavy launchers for 2 med nos, use your MWD on your Hurricane to dictate range there by forcing the Brutix to use his MWD and burn tons of cap, which you can afford to do and he can't. You're going to be slightly faster, he's going to burn through his cap charges and you'll eventually run him out of cap and kill him.
If at first you don't succeed, get a bigger hammer. |
Byzan Zwyth
Dark Centuri Inc. Firmus Ixion
|
Posted - 2006.12.21 22:21:00 -
[56]
I dont think a brutix can take down a hurricane with a respectable pilot without fitting rails. Blaster DPS means nothing unless you can get in range so you need a tackler or a stupid/slow target for it to be uber IMO ---------------------- Pointless forum slowing bandwidth hogging signature pic inc? |
Nahia Senne
Fortunis Novum
|
Posted - 2006.12.21 22:43:00 -
[57]
what to do vs caldari tho... raven vs pest, pest will lose because even at optimal its dps and tank are not enough.
Make ECCM viable! Give it 25% to scanning resolution! |
HankMurphy
Pelennor Swarm Eternal Rangers of Terror
|
Posted - 2006.12.21 22:55:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Nahia Senne what to do vs caldari tho... raven vs pest, pest will lose because even at optimal its dps and tank are not enough.
if each pilot has 5mil SP, then yeah, i would say your correct.
if each pilot had 20mil+ SP, i'm putting my money on the tempest.
not saying everytime for everyone, but many a raven has fallen to my pests. just an observation from experience.
i have been known to measure my tanks in 'ravens' yeah bob, that machariel weighs in at atleast 2.7 ravens
(copywrite is pending approval :P) if your in the tempest, you need to know wtf your doing. it is not a raven.
that being said BACK TO TOPIC tempest, phoon, hurricane, vagabond etc etc... all are deadly if you dont fly it like a douchebag. but dont think 'its close range, ok' and try to survive vs drakes and brutix's by setting keep at range to 4km and just f1-f8.... you'll die everytime.
|
Nahia Senne
Fortunis Novum
|
Posted - 2006.12.21 23:33:00 -
[59]
Originally by: HankMurphy not saying everytime for everyone, but many a raven has fallen to my pests. just an observation from experience.
i have been known to measure my tanks in 'ravens' yeah bob, that machariel weighs in at atleast 2.7 ravens
(copywrite is pending approval :P) if your in the tempest, you need to know wtf your doing. it is not a raven.
and many a bs has fallen to my cruisers, which doesn't solve my problem
20mio raven vs 20mio pest, you get two fully t2 ships with neither ship getting the upper hand. i would actually say that pest is at disadvantage here because using its t2 ammo is pointless as it deals damage to ravens strongest resistance.
in the end only thing pest has on raven is the ability to mwd outa scrambling range before it is too late?
Make ECCM viable! Give it 25% to scanning resolution! |
HankMurphy
Pelennor Swarm Eternal Rangers of Terror
|
Posted - 2006.12.21 23:51:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Nahia Senne
in the end only thing pest has on raven is the ability to mwd outa scrambling range before it is too late?
well, its best not to get in a fight you cant win to begin w/. sounds like you need to just steer clear of ravens till you have a pest setup you think you can get the upper hand w/
|
|
Xori Ruscuv
Vendetta Underground Rule of Three
|
Posted - 2006.12.22 00:38:00 -
[61]
Originally by: HankMurphy but dont think 'its close range, ok' and try to survive vs drakes and brutix's by setting keep at range to 4km and just f1-f8.... you'll die everytime.
You're right about the Brutix, but... realistically, there's no range/speed tricks that the hurricane can pull against a drake. The drake is going to hit you at 20km just as hard as it hits at 1km. (Unless I've the HAM ranges wrong... correct me if I'm wrong).
Quite aside from that, the drake tank is just a BIT overpowered. The hurricane has to stretch a battle out to win - and the drake will just beat it at its own game.
It's great playing Caldari-online, isn't it?
This IS my main! I just did a portrait swap... |
HankMurphy
Pelennor Swarm Eternal Rangers of Terror
|
Posted - 2006.12.22 01:42:00 -
[62]
Edited by: HankMurphy on 22/12/2006 01:42:37 i have not fought a drake yet. i get the feeling i will likely lose if its a 1v1 encounter... but hell, Columbus took a chance
edit: /me looks back two posts.... funny how i dont take my own advice!
|
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial
|
Posted - 2006.12.22 06:12:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Xori Ruscuv
Originally by: HankMurphy but dont think 'its close range, ok' and try to survive vs drakes and brutix's by setting keep at range to 4km and just f1-f8.... you'll die everytime.
You're right about the Brutix, but... realistically, there's no range/speed tricks that the hurricane can pull against a drake. The drake is going to hit you at 20km just as hard as it hits at 1km. (Unless I've the HAM ranges wrong... correct me if I'm wrong).
Quite aside from that, the drake tank is just a BIT overpowered. The hurricane has to stretch a battle out to win - and the drake will just beat it at its own game.
drake cant keep you in the battle and maintain a respectable tank. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
Deathbarrage
|
Posted - 2006.12.22 06:36:00 -
[64]
fit a hurricane how it should be fit and your brutix will die (and btw it can't tank the dmg anyway) 3 gyro's ftw
|
Xori Ruscuv
Vendetta Underground Rule of Three
|
Posted - 2006.12.22 07:24:00 -
[65]
Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 22/12/2006 07:25:06
Originally by: Goumindong drake cant keep you in the battle and maintain a respectable tank.
Indeed.
However, if an assaulted ship can simply outtank its aggressor, and force the aggressor to warp off, then the assaulted ship is the winner.
So who gives a flying **** whether it can HOLD you in battle? When it forces you to run like a little girl, it has won.
Just like WCS: - it is a defense not beatable by any one ship - it is a defense beatable only by THE BLOB
It's great playing Caldari-online, isn't it?
This IS my main! I just did a portrait swap... |
Phelan Lore
Sniggerdly
|
Posted - 2006.12.22 07:49:00 -
[66]
Edited by: Phelan Lore on 22/12/2006 07:49:46 The hurricane is kind of meh. It's a good ship, but I can never find any setup that really makes me 100% happy. The full tank setup is too slow to get into warp. The vagacane setup, while faster, is still too slow for having no tank and it can't really engage BSs very effectively as it is vulnerable to nos and doesn't fit a cap injector.
They never should have taken that 7th turret off of it. Every setup I use feels almost, but not quite, there.
Sniggwaffe is recruiting |
Kunming
Amarr adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra
|
Posted - 2006.12.22 10:13:00 -
[67]
Standart brutix setup of dual rep + injector tank wont manage to beat standart hurricane setup with NOS/Neutz.
You need a passive shield tank brutix and neutron blasters with null + cap injector to feed the guns while being nossed.
BTW whoever says the hurricane is underpowered, thats bull****. The NOS/Neutz + Non-Cap-Consuming Gank setup is definetly the new "dominix syndrome".
Quote: READ THIS NEXT PART CAREFULLY AS IT IS VERY IMPORTANT AND POSTING A REPLY WITHOUT READING IT MAY RESULT IN YOU LOOKING STUPID.
|
Kagura Nikon
Minmatar The Black Dawn Gang
|
Posted - 2006.12.22 10:25:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Kunming Standart brutix setup of dual rep + injector tank wont manage to beat standart hurricane setup with NOS/Neutz.
You need a passive shield tank brutix and neutron blasters with null + cap injector to feed the guns while being nossed.
BTW whoever says the hurricane is underpowered, thats bull****. The NOS/Neutz + Non-Cap-Consuming Gank setup is definetly the new "dominix syndrome".
against the brutix.. yehh try that against a myrmydon and see the results... If brute force doesn't solve your problem.. then you are not using enough!! |
Vol Jbolaz
Sturmgrenadier Inc R i s e
|
Posted - 2006.12.22 14:11:00 -
[69]
Hurricane versus Drake?
Well, first off, this is Caldari Online, so the Drake is a beast, and very very hard to beat. I'm Minmatar, but I can fly Caldari. And for good reason.
The obvious, the Drake has no range penalties. But, the Hurricane can use an AB instead of a MWD, and reduce the damage from missiles.
The Hurricane doesn't have to fit ACs, the Drake has to fit launchers. The Hurricane can use T2 Artilleries and outrange the Drake. Mind you, I don't think a single ranging BC can break a Drake's tank.
This battle will have to come down to cheap tricks. Both ships can fire their primary weapons without cap, but neither can run their tanks. The Drake's tank could be set up to last long in a passive mode. The possible tricks include using EW drones to jam the other, or web/painter drones to improve missile damage, using NOS to force the other into using a passive tank.
I do think the advantage is to the Drake, but it really depends on how the ships are set up. I can imagine very good Drake setups that could be bested by just the right Hurricane set up.
And this brings us to the moral of Eve: Victors are decided before the battle. Combat in Eve is not about outshooting the others, but fittig better, and getting your gang into a better position.
|
K1K1R1K1
Team Machine Incorporated
|
Posted - 2006.12.22 14:19:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Vol Jbolaz Hurricane versus Drake?
Well, first off, this is Caldari Online, so the Drake is a beast, and very very hard to beat. I'm Minmatar, but I can fly Caldari. And for good reason.
The obvious, the Drake has no range penalties. But, the Hurricane can use an AB instead of a MWD, and reduce the damage from missiles.
The Hurricane doesn't have to fit ACs, the Drake has to fit launchers. The Hurricane can use T2 Artilleries and outrange the Drake. Mind you, I don't think a single ranging BC can break a Drake's tank.
This battle will have to come down to cheap tricks. Both ships can fire their primary weapons without cap, but neither can run their tanks. The Drake's tank could be set up to last long in a passive mode. The possible tricks include using EW drones to jam the other, or web/painter drones to improve missile damage, using NOS to force the other into using a passive tank.
I do think the advantage is to the Drake, but it really depends on how the ships are set up. I can imagine very good Drake setups that could be bested by just the right Hurricane set up.
And this brings us to the moral of Eve: Victors are decided before the battle. Combat in Eve is not about outshooting the others, but fittig better, and getting your gang into a better position.
I'd go with the hurricane. With a dual rep tank, injector, 2 nos, and 4 slots for resistance mods along with a swarm of light t2 drones the hurricane will deal damage while indefinently running the tank (as long as the battle doesn't last something like 15 min that is).
_______________________________________ Don't worry aboutit. |
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 2 3 :: [one page] |