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YuuKnow
Estel Arador Corp Services
4
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Posted - 2011.12.10 17:44:00 -
[1] - Quote
I'm trying to get a better understanding of optimal range and falloff, so here's a basic question that I think will help me understand more.
You have 4 turrets. Each turret has equal tracking and damage modifyer. Each turret has a optimal plus falloff of 50 km.
Turret 1 has: 10 km optimal and 40 km falloff
Turret 2 has: 20 km optimal and 40 km falloff
Turret 3 has: 30 km optimal and 20 km falloff
Turret 4 has: 40 km optimal and 10 km falloff
Given these stats which Turret is the best to equip and why?
yk |
Sven Hammerstorm
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2011.12.10 17:48:00 -
[2] - Quote
turret 4 does the most damage at longest range |
Caleidascope
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
3
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Posted - 2011.12.10 17:48:00 -
[3] - Quote
I probably would go with Turret 2 because it gives you total range of 60 km.
Of course I also prefer sniper fits for pve and use projectile turrets. Maybe you are talking about lasers or hybrids, no way for me to tell. Life is short and dinner time is chancy Eat desert first! |
Famble
Three's a Crowd
152
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Posted - 2011.12.10 17:52:00 -
[4] - Quote
YuuKnow wrote:I'm trying to get a better understanding of optimal range and falloff, so here's a basic question that I think will help me understand more.
You have 4 turrets. Each turret has equal tracking and damage modifyer. Each turret has a optimal plus falloff of 50 km.
Turret 1 has: 10 km optimal and 40 km falloff
Turret 2 has: 20 km optimal and 40 km falloff
Turret 3 has: 30 km optimal and 20 km falloff
Turret 4 has: 40 km optimal and 10 km falloff
Given these stats which Turret is the best to equip and why?
yk
The word turret is either used wrong and you meant to say gun + ammo or you're mixing guns on your ship. I'm confused there...
Let's assume semantics and you meant to say guns: Gun 4 is your best choice. Given the choice you want to be fighting in 'optimal' as you'll be applying maximum damaged. Once you get into falloff your percentage to hit 'falls off' on a linear scale and becomes a 50% hit/miss ratio at max falloff. Someone can correct that last statement if I got it wrong.
Thus, gun 4 is the no-brainer here.
If anyone ever looks at you and says, "Hold my beer, watch this,"-á you're probably going to want to pay attention. |
Takeshi Yamato
ALA Biomedical
29
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Posted - 2011.12.10 17:57:00 -
[5] - Quote
YuuKnow wrote:I'm trying to get a better understanding of optimal range and falloff, so here's a basic question that I think will help me understand more.
You have 4 turrets. Each turret has equal tracking and damage modifyer. Each turret has a optimal plus falloff of 50 km.
Turret 1 has: 10 km optimal and 40 km falloff
Turret 2 has: 20 km optimal and 40 km falloff
Turret 3 has: 30 km optimal and 20 km falloff
Turret 4 has: 40 km optimal and 10 km falloff
Given these stats which Turret is the best to equip and why?
yk
At optimal+falloff, your chance to hit is 50% (ignoring the effects of tracking). At optimal+2*falloff, your chance to hit is about 3% and quickly reaches 0% after that.
That should answer your question better than anything else. |
Aamrr
HnL Enterprise
177
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Posted - 2011.12.10 18:22:00 -
[6] - Quote
I try not to use more than half my falloff, so I'd choose the turret that maximizes optimal+falloff/2. That happens to be turret 4. If I keep below 45km, I ensure I'm always getting at least 80% of my DPS. None of the other turrets can claim that. |
Uppsy Daisy
Deteis Industries
25
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Posted - 2011.12.10 18:49:00 -
[7] - Quote
Assuming the the second turret has a typo in it, and the falloff should read 30km, this:
0-50km Turret 4 At 50km+ Turret 1 |
Sphit Ker
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
40
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Posted - 2011.12.10 19:09:00 -
[8] - Quote
I heard half way into falloff is still 80% DPS then it's a cliff outward. If that's the case turret 2 win hands down.
c/d |
YuuKnow
Estel Arador Corp Services
4
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Posted - 2011.12.10 19:21:00 -
[9] - Quote
Caleidascope wrote:I probably would go with Turret 2 because it gives you total range of 60 km.
Typo fixed |
Roosterton
Shattered Star Exiles SpaceMonkey's Alliance
192
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Posted - 2011.12.10 19:25:00 -
[10] - Quote
YuuKnow wrote:I'm trying to get a better understanding of optimal range and falloff, so here's a basic question that I think will help me understand more.
You have 4 turrets. Each turret has equal tracking and damage modifyer. Each turret has a optimal plus falloff of 50 km.
Turret 1 has: 10 km optimal and 40 km falloff
Turret 2 has: 20 km optimal and 30 km falloff
Turret 3 has: 30 km optimal and 20 km falloff
Turret 4 has: 40 km optimal and 10 km falloff
Given these stats which Turret is the best to equip and why?
yk
Assuming all turrets have 10 DPS:
Turret 1: 10 DPS at 10km 5 DPS at 50km 0.3 DPS at 90km
Turret 2: 10 DPS at 20km 5 DPS at 50km 0.3 DPS at 80km
Turret 3: 10 DPS at 30km 5 DPS at 50km 0.3 DPS at 70km
Turret 4: 10 DPS at 40km 5 DPS at 50km 0.3 DPS at 60km
Bear in mind that these changes are not sudden. A "falloff curve" means that, after your optimal, your dps drops gradually. So you won't instantly do less DPS at falloff*2, you'll gradually lose DPS between falloff*1 and falloff*2.
TL;DR: Falloff allows for more potential range, but less damage at that range. Optimal tends to give less potential range, but more damage in that range.
Quote:I try not to use more than half my falloff, so I'd choose the turret that maximizes optimal+falloff/2. That happens to be turret 4. If I keep below 45km, I ensure I'm always getting at least 80% of my DPS. None of the other turrets can claim that.
Err, what? At optimal + falloff*1 you're doing half DPS, not 80% dps. |
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YuuKnow
Estel Arador Corp Services
4
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Posted - 2011.12.10 19:30:00 -
[11] - Quote
Takeshi Yamato wrote:At optimal+falloff, your chance to hit is 50% (ignoring the effects of tracking). At optimal+2*falloff, your chance to hit is about 3% and quickly reaches 0% after that.
That should answer your question better than anything else.
Actually it does.
If I'm understanding correctly then, in that case all the turrets will hit at the same damage at 50km. The damage output of turret 4 however will increase faster than the other turrets as the target gets closer (it will be in optimal range more quickly when you approach. But decrease fasther than the others is the target distance becomes greater than optimal+falloff (essentially more of a wall for maximum range).
The opposite then is true for turret 1. Turret 1's damage will increase more slowly as the target distance closes. However, it will decrease more slowly as target distance becomes greater than optimal+falloff.
Thanks. That helps a lot! |
YuuKnow
Estel Arador Corp Services
4
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Posted - 2011.12.10 19:32:00 -
[12] - Quote
Roosterton wrote:Bear in mind that these changes are not sudden. A "falloff curve" means that, after your optimal, your dps drops gradually. So you won't instantly do less DPS at falloff*2, you'll gradually lose DPS between falloff*1 and falloff*2.
TL;DR: Falloff allows for more potential range, but less damage at that range. Optimal tends to give less potential range, but more damage in that range.[
Makes sense now.
|
Ines Tegator
Towels R Us
49
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Posted - 2011.12.10 19:40:00 -
[13] - Quote
As mentioned, turret 1 for 50km+ and turret 4 for 50km and lower. None of the other turrets really need to be considered.
Here's the breakdown. I'm too lazy to make graphs to show the curve, but this chart should work. Remember that the more shallow into falloff you are, the more DPS you will be doing at that point. For reference, as per the OP, 100% falloff=50km for all turrets.
Turret 1 50% falloff = 30km Turret 2 50% falloff =40km Turret 3 50% falloff =40km Turret 4 50% falloff =45km
Fighting in optimal is always better then falloff, which leaves 45-50km as the only range anything can potentially pass turret 4. Since fallofff is on a curve, that's more realistically 47-50km which is trivial. Doing math to figure out where they all match up within that envelope is unneeded considering the absurdly tight profile here. Now above 50km:
Turret 1 150% falloff =70km Turret 2 150% falloff =65km Turret 3 150% falloff =60km Turret 4 150% falloff =55km
There is no envelope in this range that any turret passes Turret 1.
Edit: This is why hybrids will never be favored over Projectiles or Lasers, unless their paper DPS is buffed by quite a lot. Their engagement envelope is very tight compared to all other weapon types. The reward for staying in that envelope needs to be high to compensate for the huge drawback of fighting outside it. (not sure how they stack up after Crucible) |
YuuKnow
Estel Arador Corp Services
4
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Posted - 2011.12.10 19:50:00 -
[14] - Quote
Then the bigger and perhaps more complex question is:
... which turret tatic is superior? The raw damage of turret 1, but less forgiving as range is lost. Or the greater flexibility of turret 4 (at the lost of raw damage)?
Opinions? |
Goose99
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
308
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Posted - 2011.12.10 19:57:00 -
[15] - Quote
Roosterton wrote:YuuKnow wrote:I'm trying to get a better understanding of optimal range and falloff, so here's a basic question that I think will help me understand more.
You have 4 turrets. Each turret has equal tracking and damage modifyer. Each turret has a optimal plus falloff of 50 km.
Turret 1 has: 10 km optimal and 40 km falloff
Turret 2 has: 20 km optimal and 30 km falloff
Turret 3 has: 30 km optimal and 20 km falloff
Turret 4 has: 40 km optimal and 10 km falloff
Given these stats which Turret is the best to equip and why?
yk Assuming all turrets have 10 DPS: Turret 1: 10 DPS at 10km 5 DPS at 50km 0.3 DPS at 90km Turret 2: 10 DPS at 20km 5 DPS at 50km 0.3 DPS at 80km Turret 3: 10 DPS at 30km 5 DPS at 50km 0.3 DPS at 70km Turret 4: 10 DPS at 40km 5 DPS at 50km 0.3 DPS at 60km Bear in mind that these changes are not sudden. A "falloff curve" means that, after your optimal, your dps drops gradually. So you won't instantly do less DPS at falloff*2, you'll gradually lose DPS between falloff*1 and falloff*2. TL;DR: Falloff allows for more potential range, but less damage at that range. Optimal tends to give less potential range, but more damage in that range. Quote:I try not to use more than half my falloff, so I'd choose the turret that maximizes optimal+falloff/2. That happens to be turret 4. If I keep below 45km, I ensure I'm always getting at least 80% of my DPS. None of the other turrets can claim that. Err, what? At optimal + falloff*1 you're doing half DPS, not 80% dps.
He meant half way into falloff, not at the very edge of falloff. It's ~80% dps at 50% falloff, ~50% dps at 100% falloff. Like you said, falloff curve is gradual, but it's also a curve. |
Aamrr
HnL Enterprise
177
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Posted - 2011.12.10 20:04:00 -
[16] - Quote
Roosterton wrote:Quote:I try not to use more than half my falloff, so I'd choose the turret that maximizes optimal+falloff/2. That happens to be turret 4. If I keep below 45km, I ensure I'm always getting at least 80% of my DPS. None of the other turrets can claim that. Err, what? At optimal + falloff*1 you're doing half DPS, not 80% dps.
That's absolutely right. And if you had read my post, you'd see that I was talking about damage at optimal+falloff/2, not optimal+falloff*1.
Reading Comprehension -- you really should have trained it to V. |
Ines Tegator
Towels R Us
49
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Posted - 2011.12.10 20:09:00 -
[17] - Quote
Depends on the ship you are flying and how well you can dictate range. Turret 1 gives you flexibily to engage effectively accross a wide range against an enemy that can dictate against you. Turret 4 removes the need to dictate range at all- assuming you can stay within the optimal.
Realistically in a 1 v 1 situation, tracking and damage type matching are what's going to pull lasers (aka turret 4) or projectiles (aka turret 1) ahead in any given engagement. Lasers suffer in brawling range because of tracking, but excel beyond that. You are unlikely to dictate beyond a laser boats optimal because of Scorch ammo so that drawback is minimal. Projectiles excel at brawling ranges with the Minmatar tracking bonus, but also are competitive at farther ranges because of the falloff curve and Barrage ammo. Blasters melt face within their engagement profile, but are penalized harshly if the enemy can dictate range against you.
So lasers on slow ships, ships with weak tackle, or for kiting. Projectiles for all purposes, but especially up in your face. Blasters for quick-strike ships with heavy tackle.
IMO, this is the reason for Winmatar. Their ship profile (speed and range dictation) is better suited to blasters, but instead they get autocannons, allowing them to maximize their strength and reduce their penalty at the same time. |
X Mary
Lousy T-Shirt Corp EVE Animal Control
14
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Posted - 2011.12.10 21:02:00 -
[18] - Quote
normally the numbers are a bit different: Like Turret1 10+60 fallof Turret4 40+10 fallof |
Verity Sovereign
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
87
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Posted - 2011.12.10 23:50:00 -
[19] - Quote
Ammunition choices also make a big difference.
Lets take the T1 freq crystals: Multi S -50% optimal, 12 base damage -set 12 as base damage: 100% damage Standard S, same optimal, 8 damage : 66.7% damage Radio S, +60% optimal, 5 damage. 41.7% damage
Now with lasers and somewhat hybrids now (due to the halved reload time), you can easily switch crystals, giving you something similar to "falloff" - in that you can match the crystal to the range, and at greater ranges, you do less damage (although T2 ammo changes this up, such as with T2 pulses it basically goes Imp Navy Multi, Imp Navy Gamma -> Scorch for quite a while -> Radio only at the limits of the laser's range)
So with multi it is:
Turret 1 with Multi has an optimal + falloff of 45km ... Turret 4 with Multi has an optimal + falloff of 30km ...
but when you switch to radio, taking anearly 60% DPS hit, it becomes:
Turret 1 with Multi has an optimal + falloff of 56km ... Turret 4 with Multi has an optimal + falloff of 74km ...
And of course, there are the various T2 choices depending on your turret type |
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