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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2078
|
Posted - 2015.10.02 18:00:06 -
[1] - Quote
I'll await the inevitable math, but these feel too strong, on a gut feel.
Turrets can manually fly to compensate unbounsed TD, there is NOTHING a missile pilot can do to the same effect. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2078
|
Posted - 2015.10.02 18:05:32 -
[2] - Quote
And definitely NOT one scripted mod, as I'll simply put a TD on EVERY SINGLE ship. Because why would I not.... |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2078
|
Posted - 2015.10.02 18:20:52 -
[3] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:Chainsaw Plankton wrote:general buffs to missiles also incoming to balance this out? Outside of frigate sized missiles, missiles just don't seem like a great weapon type. that said I don't have the math wizardry or usage stats to really check, but it seems HML lose out on damage to MWDing cruisers to RLML even after reloads. add links and bleh. maybe just always fly with a rapier?
do people actually believe that rapid launchers aren't massively overpowered?
Do people remember there are more missile systems than that? |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2078
|
Posted - 2015.10.02 18:29:21 -
[4] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:afkalt wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:Chainsaw Plankton wrote:general buffs to missiles also incoming to balance this out? Outside of frigate sized missiles, missiles just don't seem like a great weapon type. that said I don't have the math wizardry or usage stats to really check, but it seems HML lose out on damage to MWDing cruisers to RLML even after reloads. add links and bleh. maybe just always fly with a rapier?
do people actually believe that rapid launchers aren't massively overpowered? Do people remember there are more missile systems than that? yeah but nobody is using them
So we fix the systems with problems, we don't sledgehammer everything else along the way. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2078
|
Posted - 2015.10.02 18:36:44 -
[5] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote: not sure how a general missile buff to compensate for missile disruptors achieves that
Because if 75% of the systems are weak and 25% are too good, we reign in th 25% and give the 75% a leg up.
Hit quote limit |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2079
|
Posted - 2015.10.02 19:12:29 -
[6] - Quote
Fifth Blade wrote:Ripard Teg wrote:If they're going to use the same skills/bonuses as Tracking Disruptors, why not just use missile disruption scripts for the existing Tracking Disruptors instead of a new module? As always ( ), my thinking here is geared toward small gang, who while roaming are not going to know if they're going to be facing turret ships or missile ships until they're facing them. Came here to say the exact same thing. From the same perspective (small gang). Please do this.
Because it's FAR too strong on unbonused hulls; people don't do it today because it only gets turrets - but make it both and it's all you'll see. Ever. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2079
|
Posted - 2015.10.02 19:16:42 -
[7] - Quote
Khan Wrenth wrote:Riela Tanal wrote:As has been stated by others. If they go with the script method, every ship will fit just one of these tracking disruptors and swap the script out for whatever weapon type they are fighting. Like everyone does with damps? Oh, wait....
Unbonused damp does nothing against loads of hulls - who cares if a HAC loses 15km target range, for example.. This is not the case with these mods/TD. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2094
|
Posted - 2015.10.03 07:44:12 -
[8] - Quote
Jus'not N'miFace wrote:^ this should be one module with added scripts to be in line with all other ewar one mod
What, like ECM..... |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2094
|
Posted - 2015.10.03 08:48:09 -
[9] - Quote
Jacob Holland wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:the way it is is good. if it's all in one module I can just show up in my 5 tracking disruptor curse and shut everyone down except drones. if you make me choose the number of modules of each type to fit, well, it's sort of like racial ecm rather than just making multis as powerful as racials. tracking disruptors are plenty good already. That works for the Curse, and might work for the Pilgrim since the range buff (old, short-range Pilgrim however struggled for 1 TD slot - I haven't looked at mine since the change but I guess that the midslot load has eased somewhat); but if you only have space for one disruption module it's not viable. It pushes disrution (weapon disruption) ships more to the strategies of Falcons and so forth where, fitted for disruption, that becomes their only role - and I'm not sure weapon disruption is powerful enough to support that.
Sack that, with one mod I can obliterate the DPS of every non-drone ship in the game.
I can half missile ship range. HALF it. Lol. I can make faction heavies hit like fury cruise. I can make pulse track like rails.
All with an instant script change. On UNBONUSED hulls.
I'd have them on EVERY boat yesterday.
What you're forgetting is unbonused ECM was gutted because of this, TDs have not been.
If this becomes one mod, it's going to be TD drone boats online. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2097
|
Posted - 2015.10.03 17:25:53 -
[10] - Quote
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:Owen Levanth wrote:Kitty Bear wrote:the question that still has not been answered will missiles be able to 'miss' their targets whilst affected by these modules
Yes. You will know when this happens when your UI tells you you did "0 damage". Every time that happens, your missiles "missed". There is no log entry about the missiles that have missed. and with -60% flight speed and -60% flight time, they are probably going to miss a lot. unbonused light missiles go 5.6km/s or so, jumps up to 8.4km/s with a 10% per lv bonus. Cruise missiles are a bit faster at ~7km/s, and 10.5km/s on a bonused ship. although with their application you are probably better off just precision damping. and heavies go about 6.5 to 9.5. Then there is the mordus line with ludicrous speed I'm not sure if 0 damage is a thing, although back in the nano days most missiles that could even catch their targets did something like 0.1 damage or whatnot. although it has been a while and I might not be remembering exactly right.
I think he's referring to this anomaly: https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/3f38ok/major_bug_with_missile_volleys_completely/ |
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2097
|
Posted - 2015.10.03 18:22:05 -
[11] - Quote
It's not just you. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2098
|
Posted - 2015.10.04 09:25:13 -
[12] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:Yadaryon Vondawn wrote:Question, why not have one module? The current Disruptors, but with this added functionality. Or a missile script. Especially if you are going for solo PVP I imagine this is a bit weird. You fit one module for all turrets, except for missiles. Now you have to choose which disruptor module to fit. All other EWAR is 'across the board', why is this designed for missiles only?
I see how it creates fitting options and more choices but I am genuinely interested in the thought proces behind creating a new module for this :) THIS It seems pointless in adding a new module when the existing tracking disrupters could be tweaked to affect missiles and scripts added.
The point is balance.
You people are fools, you have no idea the armageddon this idea invites.
Thankfully, I have faith the devs aren't this stupid. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2098
|
Posted - 2015.10.04 11:19:33 -
[13] - Quote
So for all the 'one wtfpwnsauce' mod proponents:
What's your counter when we land an Ishtar fleet on you with 2 of these on every boat?
I'll help: anything not a drone comp will die in a fire because I can stop all incoming damage dead. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2100
|
Posted - 2015.10.04 14:28:19 -
[14] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:afkalt wrote:So for all the 'one wtfpwnsauce' mod proponents:
What's your counter when we land an Ishtar fleet on you with 2 of these on every boat?
I'll help: anything not a drone comp will die in a fire because I can stop all incoming damage dead. You can stop all incoming damage? You must be joking... You are worried about two unbonused tracking disruptors which will be heavily impacted by the stacking penalty, and you would be wasting all of your midslots. I can't see anyone even trying to use such a doctrine. The whole point of the Ishtar blob is that it doesn't need to concern itself with manually targeting each ship, trying to coordinate spreading the ewar in a big blob of alliance F1 monkeys for relatively little effect will not be very likely to happen. Also you forget that CCP can balance using the tracking disruptor's modifiers, and even buff some of the weaker missile systems. So combining both effects into a tracking disruptor module does not necessarily mean that this will be unbalanced as you can tweak the other variables. I think HAM, HAML, and Torps will need buffs anyway regardless.
Oh so you mean if they completely rebalance everything around the stupid idea it'll be less stupid?
Or, you know, they could just not break everything in the first place.
And yeah, unbonused TD ARE that good. You know why they aren't prolific now? Because missiles and drones. Make it one mod and you're good to go vs everything but drones.
Even stacking, taking two unbonused mods you'll drop HML range to under 20. Or have them hit like citadel missiles. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2102
|
Posted - 2015.10.04 15:40:48 -
[15] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:afkalt wrote:Moac Tor wrote:afkalt wrote:So for all the 'one wtfpwnsauce' mod proponents:
What's your counter when we land an Ishtar fleet on you with 2 of these on every boat?
I'll help: anything not a drone comp will die in a fire because I can stop all incoming damage dead. You can stop all incoming damage? You must be joking... You are worried about two unbonused tracking disruptors which will be heavily impacted by the stacking penalty, and you would be wasting all of your midslots. I can't see anyone even trying to use such a doctrine. The whole point of the Ishtar blob is that it doesn't need to concern itself with manually targeting each ship, trying to coordinate spreading the ewar in a big blob of alliance F1 monkeys for relatively little effect will not be very likely to happen. Also you forget that CCP can balance using the tracking disruptor's modifiers, and even buff some of the weaker missile systems. So combining both effects into a tracking disruptor module does not necessarily mean that this will be unbalanced as you can tweak the other variables. I think HAM, HAML, and Torps will need buffs anyway regardless. Oh so you mean if they completely rebalance everything around the stupid idea it'll be less stupid? Or, you know, they could just not break everything in the first place. And yeah, unbonused TD ARE that good. You know why they aren't prolific now? Because missiles and drones. Make it one mod and you're good to go vs everything but drones. Even stacking, taking two unbonused mods you'll drop HML range to under 20. Or have them hit like citadel missiles. Dual TD ishtar blobs will not be a thing of that I am very sure NPC alt. Mid slots are highly valuable in PvP. This is part of the reason you need to implement this as a script or they will be used rarely. By making this scripted and balancing around that at least the module won't border on an interesting gimmick as the current missile enhancing module have been so far. Also two unbonused TDs will knock a caracal down to 37km range. That is still pretty good although it is not under 20km as you are thinking. And good luck getting a blob to spread the ewar over an entire enemy fleet.
Caracal is ranged bonused, don't lecture me on mechanics when you miss things like that. Also it would make the missiles slow enough to be effectively outrun, real range would be nowhere near that.
You clearly have little idea how this would pan out at the fleet level.
Thank goodness CCP know better. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2102
|
Posted - 2015.10.04 16:11:47 -
[16] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:afkalt wrote:Caracal is ranged bonused, don't lecture me on mechanics when you miss things like that. Also it would make the missiles slow enough to be effectively outrun, real range would be nowhere near that.
You clearly have little idea how this would pan out at the fleet level.
Thank goodness CCP know better. You seem to be fixated on using unbonused and suboptimal setups. What are the two main missile doctrine ships... The Caracal and Cerberus; both have velocity and flight time bonuses. Anyway, that is enough of trying to get an angry NPC alt to see sense for one day. *chuckles*
Irrelevant, it is application you'd hit vs HML. Only RLML would one consider range, and probably not then.
It CANNOT be one mod. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2102
|
Posted - 2015.10.04 16:52:47 -
[17] - Quote
W0lf Crendraven wrote:Fourteen Maken wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:
At the same time, we're planning on making a slight buff pass on the Missile Guidance modules that were introduced in Aegis. Their range bonuses don't need any more improvements, but we are currently planning on buffing their explosion radius and explosion velocity bonuses by ~10%. We'd then observe how that change is received on TQ and decide if we want to go farther or not.!
You were told a hundred times in the AEGIS feed back thread that your new modules were ****, and you didn't listen. You added stacking penalties to rigs so the net affect of your change was a missile nerf, so there is no need for this ewar to compensate because you didn't buff anything in aegis. Mgcs prenerf were retardidly broken, and still are very good, just shows how much bs ccp has to wade through in feedback theads.
How would you know, they never even made it in a working state to Sisi. The stacking was missing on the first go around, then they were nerfbatted AND stacking added.
They never made it as they should have in the first instance - original values with stacking. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2103
|
Posted - 2015.10.05 07:18:39 -
[18] - Quote
I have a couple more concerns with regards the strength of these on unbonused hulls.
1) Unbonused range disruption to turrets can be soft countered by an ammo swap - less DPS, but not zero. Missiles Cannot do this, no range, no DPS. 2) Unbonused tracking speed disruption is eminently manageable by manually piloting, for example a maller with scorch would start to track like a 200mm rail thorax - in other words perfectly manageable by piloting. Missiles cannot do a thing to manually mitigate these mods.
Test case I used: Bellicose with a single HML shooting 100% unfit thorax moving at 300m/s. Single unbonused disruptor: Removes 46.1% of the missile damage. Options available to the missile pilot.....Zero.
A second unbonused effect only knocks it back to 57.7% damage removed.
Keep in mind that is removing applied damage, which in my test case is already 25% of paper speak DPS.
i.e. paper damage is 224 per hit, applied damage to the unfit 300m/s thorax is 52.2 (23.3% of paper), with the MD it is down to 28.1 (12.5% of paper).
I realise these are effectively unfit, but the aim of the test was to see the disruption of a single/dual unbonused mod. It's....too good imo, considering the pilot can't do anything about it.
I really think you're going to want to reign in the unbonused values and boost the specialist hulls to level it off.
Caveat: I think my math is accurate but it is very early - if someone disagrees let me know please. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2104
|
Posted - 2015.10.05 08:18:24 -
[19] - Quote
Spugg Galdon wrote:If you created a new racial PDS that destroyed the missiles and drones of a targeted ship you would create a new role within a fleet.
Faster cycling smartbombs, less cap use. Would probably do it. Makes firewalling easier.
Speaking of, is firewalling going to be removed now, since we now have legit anti-missile ewar?
In fact, I seem to recall (from players admittedly) that a lot of the reasons missiles are sub-par were because "they have no ewar"....any sign of that changing? Nerf RxML as required to make it work. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2105
|
Posted - 2015.10.05 10:31:39 -
[20] - Quote
Aivlis Eldelbar wrote: - Change misile skill descriptions to state that these aren't CCP-approved weapons and you should consider the SP invested a waste :P
I lol'd |
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2111
|
Posted - 2015.10.05 13:46:43 -
[21] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Q: Isn't 45% reduction to both flight time and velocity too much, since the effect stacks? A: It's true that the effect of the two range attributes stack, so at the maximum (range scripted, on a bonused ship with links and heat) level the Missile Disruptor would reduce the total effective missile range by ~70%. However this is actually still less powerful than current Tracking Disruptors, which provide a -86% reduction in both optimal and falloff when using the same ship and bonuses.
But how many turrets have a 50/50 split between optimal and falloff?
Most are stacked to one or the other.
No-one cares if lasers lose a little falloff/projectiles lose some optimal.
Missiles do not have this luxury as time*speed are married. Plus you're making flat out out-running the missiles even more viable (when it has no right to be, as speed already hits application) by attacking speed.
Likewise, I cannot outrun gun rounds.
Finally, I CANNOT swap long range ammo into most launcher systems (javelin aside)...all, ALL turrets have the option to reload long range ammunition.
If you MUST slash it by so much, nuke flight time only please, it's already frustrating enough watching cruisers run away from heavy missiles on non-speed bonused ships. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2113
|
Posted - 2015.10.05 15:58:16 -
[22] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote: That's not how math works. It doesn't matter whether a turret is more falloff heavy or more optimal heavy. Since both attributes are impacted equally, the effective range of the turret is simply reduced by 86% across the board.
I read it differently, fair enough.
And the other concerns? Outrunning missiles, for example.
Or that a turret can load long range ammo to compensate, or just manage transversal to mitigate - no such options exist beyond javelin for missiles. Precision are already too slow as it is |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2113
|
Posted - 2015.10.05 16:04:42 -
[23] - Quote
It's not hard counter on unbonused hulls; my fear is that the missile one is. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2114
|
Posted - 2015.10.05 22:23:07 -
[24] - Quote
My linked cyclone does 3km/s with no implants.... Just sayin'
That's a battlecruiser..... |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2118
|
Posted - 2015.10.07 06:23:42 -
[25] - Quote
Rowells wrote:afkalt wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Q: Isn't 45% reduction to both flight time and velocity too much, since the effect stacks? A: It's true that the effect of the two range attributes stack, so at the maximum (range scripted, on a bonused ship with links and heat) level the Missile Disruptor would reduce the total effective missile range by ~70%. However this is actually still less powerful than current Tracking Disruptors, which provide a -86% reduction in both optimal and falloff when using the same ship and bonuses. But how many turrets have a 50/50 split between optimal and falloff? Most are stacked to one or the other. No-one cares if lasers lose a little falloff/projectiles lose some optimal. Missiles do not have this luxury as time*speed are married. Plus you're making flat out out-running the missiles even more viable (when it has no right to be, as speed already hits application) by attacking speed. Likewise, I cannot outrun gun rounds. Finally, I CANNOT swap long range ammo into most launcher systems (javelin aside)...all, ALL turrets have the option to reload long range ammunition. If you MUST slash it by so much, nuke flight time only please, it's already frustrating enough watching cruisers run away from heavy missiles on non-speed bonused ships. It's not a combined bonus of optimal/falloff. It's a 86% loss for optimal and 86% loss for fallof.
Yes, he said. I read it differently.
My concerns about unbonused still stand though.
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2118
|
Posted - 2015.10.07 06:25:34 -
[26] - Quote
Nafensoriel wrote:To the people trying to say point defense or active missiles launched at other active missiles are a great idea... Please take a moment to google 3D math equations that would relate to your ideas before posting them. Then google what these equations would do to a server with 700+ people in a fight. Then realize that any time such a system was used en masse you would cripple the local nodes even with small fleet fights. Not to mention that the "tics" the server uses to calculate such things would innately cause them to basically fail over 30% of the time.
Yes. The only way would be a ship with bonuses to smart bombs to make a more effective firewall. Reduce cycle time/cap/etc.
However I would contend with these mods coming, fire walling should go completely anyway. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2120
|
Posted - 2015.10.07 13:00:29 -
[27] - Quote
Yup...so...y'know...with these mods let's just get rid of the lot.
Now we have solid anti-missile ewar, let's drop the crappy, lag inducing edge case stuff that we had to make do with previously.
Unless there is a good reason to keep special snowflake extra ewar for missiles for a reason beyond "lolmissiles". |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2131
|
Posted - 2015.10.08 10:18:23 -
[28] - Quote
Probably too late for this, but can we look at the fittings for the guidance mods please? A copypasta of turrets doesn't work so well for missiles .
Or change the rig penalties.
Please |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2131
|
Posted - 2015.10.08 10:30:17 -
[29] - Quote
Hey, what happens if I hit a bomber with these before he launches bombs? (You know, if they're bad)
Do they affect the bomb? |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2464
|
Posted - 2015.11.26 15:03:37 -
[30] - Quote
Trinkets friend wrote:Just going to go ahead and say, before MD's go live, this is a stupid idea and CCP Larrikin should be ashamed. Bad Aussie. Bad.
No no no.
It's right an proper that there are more counters to missiles than guns, that they do less paper and applied DPS. Or something. |
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