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Anny Jackson
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2
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Posted - 2011.12.11 12:59:00 -
[1] - Quote
You know they (HACs) need it badly. But what kind of? Well, my proposal is easy - make them immune to MWD disactivation by scramblers. I bet they will become better after this. At least some of them. But it's better than Vaga, Zealot and (perhaps) Ishtar only.
The same bonus would be possible for assault frigates as well. |
Duchess Starbuckington
Starbuckington Manor
42
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Posted - 2011.12.11 13:25:00 -
[2] - Quote
Ummm, what game are you playing? The only HACs that need any attention are the Eagle and Sacrilege* and neither of them would benefit at all from this change.
Quote:I bet they will become better after this No **** Sherlock, they'll become outright overpowered with this.
*Yes, I know about the Deimos, but probably best to wait and see how it is with the hybrid buff. |
Anny Jackson
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2
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Posted - 2011.12.11 14:00:00 -
[3] - Quote
Duchess Starbuckington wrote:Ummm, what game are you playing? The only HACs that need any attention are the Eagle and Sacrilege* and neither of them would benefit at all from this change. Quote:I bet they will become better after this No **** Sherlock, they'll become outright overpowered with this. *Yes, I know about the Deimos, but probably best to wait and see how it is with the hybrid buff.
I bet it's you who're playing the different game. Vaga is crap comparing to Cynabal, Zealot is using for very restricted role (anti-frigate), Deimos is crap even with hybrid buff, Cerberus is just freaking useless. And sniping HACs will be useless (since new T3 BCs) even with suggested boost. |
Duchess Starbuckington
Starbuckington Manor
42
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Posted - 2011.12.11 14:16:00 -
[4] - Quote
... Hmm, ok looks like I'm going to have to try and use simple words here as you don't seem to know much about this game.
Quote:Vaga is crap comparing to Cynabal The Cynabal is better because it's a pirate faction cruiser. (And an Angel ship which are overpowered all round.) Ever noticed how the Cynabal is about 50-70mil more expensive than a Vagabond? Yeah that's why.
Quote:Zealot is using for very restricted role (anti-frigate) Hey look, someone who has no idea how a Zealot works. Zealots are not anti-frigate ships, they're armour HAC gang damage dealers, putting out 400-500 DPS out to 40km range while mounting excellent resists.
Quote:Cerberus is just freaking useless. Yes, 500 DPS at 40km range with a 40k EHP buffer and superb resists is completely useless. Idiot.
Quote:And sniping HACs will be useless (since new T3 BCs) even with suggested boost. Yup, but sniper HACs have been pretty much obsolete long before those came along anyway so nothing has really changed.
Quote:Deimos is crap even with hybrid buff Not really, no. Better DPS, easier to fit, faster and more agile than before. It can also mount a surprisingly good active tank.
I get the feeling you've either never actually flown any of these ships, you can't possibly have used them in a proper gang and still be this clueless. The only HACs that really do need looking at are the Sacrilege (needs another low) and the Eagle (needs better fitting and a drone bay.) |
Anny Jackson
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2
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Posted - 2011.12.11 16:51:00 -
[5] - Quote
Pirate or not, overpowered or ok, Cynabal is much better than Vaga. And the price difference isn't that big. Vaga is still popular because people are greedy bastards (some of them at least). They prefer to pay 100kk less and suck than 100kk more and rock...
As to Cerberus, it's just lol. Compare that statistics to Drake... Deimos is crap, no matter what you think of it... And Ishtar is a good drone-ship, but drone-ships aren't very popular nowdays in general. So what do we have? 2.5 hacs out of 8 are semi-decent? Or it's 2 out of 8? Yeah, great. |
mxzf
Shovel Bros
239
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Posted - 2011.12.11 17:16:00 -
[6] - Quote
Anny Jackson wrote:Pirate or not, overpowered or ok, Cynabal is much better than Vaga. And the price difference isn't that big. Vaga is still popular because people are greedy bastards (some of them at least). They prefer to pay 100kk less and suck than 100kk more and rock...
As to Cerberus, it's just lol. Compare that statistics to Drake... Deimos is crap, no matter what you think of it... And Ishtar is a good drone-ship, but drone-ships aren't very popular nowdays in general. So what do we have? 2.5 hacs out of 8 are semi-decent? Or it's 2 out of 8? Yeah, great.
That Vaga example sounds like a free market working as intended. If you have more cash to blow, you get better stuff.
And I will admit that the Cerberus' stats aren't amazing compared to the Drake, but it's made more for sniping than brawling. And if you are just shrugging off the Ishtar, you probably don't realize that it's probably the most flown HAC out there (and for good reason). |
Duchess Starbuckington
Starbuckington Manor
44
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Posted - 2011.12.11 17:20:00 -
[7] - Quote
Quote:Pirate or not, overpowered or ok, Cynabal is much better than Vaga. And the Vigilant is better than the Deimos. Your point? Pirate faction ships are supposed to be better than their HAC counterparts. are you really this dense that I need to explain it again? In fact, cases where the pirate cruiser isn't better than its T2 counterpart is a cause for concern.
Quote:As to Cerberus, it's just lol. Compare that statistics to Drak I have compared it, and unlike you I've actually flown it - and yes, it's inferior to the Drake if you take it into scram range. Otherwise it's an excellent ship.
Supporting evidence please. Post-buff it's a very workable HAC. Legion boost it and you can get a 1k DPS active tank coupled with decent DPS and high mobility.
Quote:And Ishtar is a good drone-ship, but drone-ships aren't very popular nowdays in general. Umm, so according to you - the Ishtar being a good ship is invalidated by the fact that other drone ships don't get flown much? The Ishtar is an amazing ship if used right.
Quote:So what do we have? 2.5 hacs out of 8 are semi-decent? Or it's 2 out of 8? Yeah, great. Let's add it up shall we:
Sacrilege - needs a low, otherwise decent. Bit too nich+¬ though, really. Like the Deimos though it has a phenomenal active tank with the right setup. Zealot- amazing ship, despite your hilarious lack of knowledge about it. Actually forms the backbone of entire fleet doctrines.
Cerberus - Very mean HAM ship and perfectly capable HML ship (it can infact match a Drake for pure missile DPS output.) Eagle - Useless. Buff it.
Ishtar - Great ship, amazingly versatile with strong tank. Only drawback is higher skill reqs than other HACs to use it well. Deimos - went from crap to decent with the Gallente/hybrid buffs, throw a booster T3 on it and it becomes very dangerous.
Vagabond - poster-boy for nanoship combat, very solid all-round. Muninn - Arguably obsolete, thanks to a combination of the Hurricane and Tornado. Poor slot layout doesn't help there.
So to summarise: Good HACs - 3: Zealot, Vagabond, Ishtar, Cerberus Decent HACs - 2: Sacrilege, Deimos Useless HACs - 2: Eagle, Muninn
And of the 2 useless HACs, neither would be fixed with your stupid MWD buff idea. Conclusion: OP has no clue what he's talking about. |
Duchess Starbuckington
Starbuckington Manor
44
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Posted - 2011.12.11 17:52:00 -
[8] - Quote
Quote:And I will admit that the Cerberus' stats aren't amazing compared to the Drake, but it's made more for sniping than brawling. This. To the simpleton of an OP: Please show me your Drake fit that can lob HAMs at 45km. |
Arbiter Reformed
Saiph Industries SRS.
5
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Posted - 2011.12.11 18:02:00 -
[9] - Quote
lol ham cerb i think your prom in disguise,
when tier 3 bc become cheaper there will be very little reason to fly hacs at all,
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Duchess Starbuckington
Starbuckington Manor
44
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Posted - 2011.12.11 18:05:00 -
[10] - Quote
Quote:lol ham cerb i think your prom in disguise, Umm, what?
Quote:when tier 3 bc become cheaper there will be very little reason to fly hacs at all, Their price has settled. HACs are still viable and can do things tier 3s can't. (Like survive being attacked by a Rifter) |
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Emperor Salazar
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
250
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Posted - 2011.12.11 21:01:00 -
[11] - Quote
Duchess Starbuckington wrote: Conclusion: OP has no clue what he's talking about.
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Emperor Salazar
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
250
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Posted - 2011.12.11 21:18:00 -
[12] - Quote
Also, I think the eagle has potential now that it can actually fit 250mm rails without needing two slots for pg modules. I was playing on the test server with a fit with CN antimatter doing (EFT) 300ish DPS at 40ish km, about 50k EHP, doing about 1200m/s. It needs an RCUII to fit the full rack of 250mm rails, LSE, and mwd but I think it has potential for shield hac gangs. |
Duchess Starbuckington
Starbuckington Manor
47
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Posted - 2011.12.11 22:02:00 -
[13] - Quote
Easier to fit yes, but massively outclassed by various others. The Cerberus being a biggie. (To put it this way: for the same cruiser skill, you get a solid buffered ship that can lob 500 missile DPS out to 45km) |
Arbiter Reformed
Saiph Industries SRS.
5
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Posted - 2011.12.11 22:15:00 -
[14] - Quote
Duchess Starbuckington wrote:Quote:lol ham cerb i think your prom in disguise, Umm, what? Quote:when tier 3 bc become cheaper there will be very little reason to fly hacs at all, Their price has settled. HACs are still viable and can do things tier 3s can't. (Like survive being attacked by a Rifter)
last time i went out in a tornado i killed 2 slicers with ease
you really think a zealot cant get soloed by a rifter?
tier 3 bc can kill frigs pretty easy when was the last time you 800mm had trouble tracking on a machariel?
the idea that these ships are ballanced because they are slightly (if actually not really) vulnerable to fast takle is a really stupid way to talk about balance, in the context of when these will be used they are vastly superior to hacs in any situation when signiture radius or all out tank is not required,
also consider that they are by and large faster than non nano fit cruisers, my curse goes 1700ms with two nanoes my tonado does 1650, with a web!
their tank is also not as bad as people say my 1500dps naga has 35kehp, i think thats pretty reasonable considering resists are good, that goes over 45 if i bother to fit a dcII.. oh i have a point and web on that too, and do 600 dps at 35km.
in essence cruisers and frigs need a speed boost across the board. immune to scrams wouldnt help the situation as generally you dont want to be in scram range anyway, bringing back a hit and run ability would be great
20% to cruisers and frigs would be just about right. it would mean ti3 bc are still reletivly faster than normal bc and bs, but considerably slower than hacs and also far more vulnerable to frigs.. this would also help the whole hml situation
also just to add, i fully realise t2 cruisers are still used in niche situations, and some would say that is where t2 should stay. but something about afterburners makes me sad..
not to mention that argument tends to forget that allot of t2 just dosnt have a nieche to fill anymore, cerb is a good example, eagle another, damps etc... |
Duchess Starbuckington
Starbuckington Manor
47
|
Posted - 2011.12.11 22:23:00 -
[15] - Quote
Not sure on a speed boost to frigates but one on cruisers would be ideal, the gap between them and BCs is way too small. As for Tier3 vs HAC - HACs have two things that tier 3s generally don't: sig radius and tank. Zealots are used for a reason, you know. |
tankus2
Endless Destruction Imperial Ascension
17
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Posted - 2011.12.11 22:27:00 -
[16] - Quote
Arbiter, while your 20% may be much, I do agree that small and medium-sized ships should have a speed buff overall.
Duchess, your analyzation of HACs seems correct. The Eagle and Muninn both need some lovin, and since they are sniper/tanker HACs, they could probably benefit from having a buff in those categories. Where the science gets done |
Lykouleon
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
363
|
Posted - 2011.12.12 01:58:00 -
[17] - Quote
If you think HACs need a boost, you need to uninstall and get your head examined.
There is literally no other way I can express how wrong you're doing it.
The only HAC that needs to be looked at is the Sacrilege due to its grid and layout, nothing wrong with the ship other than that. All other HACs fit their roles as intended (if you actually know how to fly them...) Lykouleon > CYNO ME CLOSER SO I CAN HIT THEM WITH MY SWORD
WIdot Director of Quality Control and Ironically Signing My Title to Posts To Make People ~mad~ |
King Rothgar
Autocannons Anonymous
57
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Posted - 2011.12.12 03:39:00 -
[18] - Quote
Nice troll but I have to deduct a few points. So -1 for posting too many replies, -1 for failing to be a threadnaught and -1 since I caught it. Your troll score is 7/10. Well done. |
Misanthra
Alternative Enterprises
9
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Posted - 2011.12.12 04:45:00 -
[19] - Quote
King Rothgar wrote:Nice troll but I have to deduct a few points. So -1 for posting too many replies, -1 for failing to be a threadnaught and -1 since I caught it. Your troll score is 7/10. Well done.
you are too generous....this is the AF bonus always brought up (either scram or web immunity) as the missing bonus recycled for HACS.
.
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Anny Jackson
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2
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Posted - 2011.12.12 12:17:00 -
[20] - Quote
Lykouleon wrote:If you think HACs need a boost, you need to uninstall and get your head examined.
There is literally no other way I can express how wrong you're doing it.
The only HAC that needs to be looked at is the Sacrilege due to its grid and layout, nothing wrong with the ship other than that. All other HACs fit their roles as intended (if you actually know how to fly them...)
Ye-ye-ye. Alright, name any popular and useful role that HAC will perform better than BC? Ok, armor AB gangs. A pure fun standart, isn't acceptible for small gangs and solo, but ok. Sure, it's mostly for Zealots and Fleet Stabbers... Vaga is good for small gangs and decent for solo. Sure, Cynabal is better, and I peronally prefer nano-hurricane for this, but anyway... What else? |
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Duchess Starbuckington
Starbuckington Manor
48
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Posted - 2011.12.12 13:46:00 -
[21] - Quote
- Armour AB gangs (the Deimos is actually competitive at this now post-buff, FYI) - Mobile shield gangs - General nanoship use (Vagabond and Ishtar standing out in particular for this, and believe it or not you can even get a decent fit out of the Deimos for it.) - Solo/small gang with active tanks (Deimos and Sacrilege being rather good at this)
Quote:and I peronally prefer nano-hurricane for this Apples and oranges. Nanocanes fight better close up but Vagabonds are much, much harder to catch in the first place going a full KM/s faster than the Hurricane and with better agility and falloff.
The only thing HACs have actually lost thanks to the tier 3 BCs is their position as a more mobile sniper, but sniper HACs fell largely out of use well before those were implemented.
Every HAC does something better than the equivilent BC, besides the Eagle.
The only ones that need some love are: Sacrilege (needs a low, but not broken to be honest) Eagle (utterly broken) Muninn (was perfectly usable, but now it's obsolete)
And to list off the general advantages of a HAC over a BC: - Speed - Agility - Range - Scan resolution |
Emperor Salazar
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
252
|
Posted - 2011.12.12 14:45:00 -
[22] - Quote
Anny Jackson wrote:Lykouleon wrote:If you think HACs need a boost, you need to uninstall and get your head examined.
There is literally no other way I can express how wrong you're doing it.
The only HAC that needs to be looked at is the Sacrilege due to its grid and layout, nothing wrong with the ship other than that. All other HACs fit their roles as intended (if you actually know how to fly them...) Ye-ye-ye. Alright, name any popular and useful role that HAC will perform better than BC? Ok, armor AB gangs. A pure fun standart, isn't acceptible for small gangs and solo, but ok. Sure, it's mostly for Zealots and Fleet Stabbers... Vaga is good for small gangs and decent for solo. Sure, Cynabal is better, and I peronally prefer nano-hurricane for this, but anyway... What else?
Post with your main so we can see how terrible you really are. |
Major Kim
The Night Wardens Viro Mors Non Est
4
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Posted - 2011.12.12 16:55:00 -
[23] - Quote
one can't just provide the ability to "ignore" scramblers...you're breaking mechanics, i think all the hac's seem to be in fine working order. These are SPECIALIZED CRUISERS, T2 can be better than faction, but you need to be a big chief. not a big chief you need to work harder.
I personally don't see any changes to implement, especially one as generic and short sighted as making them imune to warp scrambelers. good day |
Takeshi Yamato
ALA Biomedical
34
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Posted - 2011.12.12 16:58:00 -
[24] - Quote
HACs don't need buffing, Battlecruisers need nerfing. They do too much dps for one and are too cheap for what they can do. |
Duchess Starbuckington
Starbuckington Manor
50
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Posted - 2011.12.12 17:33:00 -
[25] - Quote
Takeshi Yamato wrote:HACs don't need buffing, Battlecruisers need nerfing. They do too much dps for one and are too cheap for what they can do.
This. At the very least the Drake and Hurricane need a nerf. |
Noisrevbus
32
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Posted - 2011.12.12 18:06:00 -
[26] - Quote
Duchess Starbuckington wrote:Easier to fit yes, but massively outclassed by various others. The Cerberus being a biggie. (To put it this way: for the same cruiser skill, you get a solid buffered ship that can lob 500 missile DPS out to 45km)
You mean the same DPS a standard fit Drake project 60km while lobbing 400 of that DPS another 20-40km?
All of which take place while your Cerberus pilot have yet to understand that mobility in EVE is relative, not absolute, and get tackled by other BC - because he is infact not very mobile at all .
With that last comment i see you're onto one of the problems anyway, so i hope you allow me some jest.
Going back to the topic at hand, it portrait quite a christmas chestnut for cracking: On one hand you have the inequal production (tech II BPO etc.) causing conservative issues and on the other hand you have insurance and meaningful PvP causing conservative issues. It's probably better to deal with the production issues than slating the problem over and hope it will go away by limiting risk-factors of actually playing the game.
That answer one part of the question, looking over the ISK-effect relative on both ends. In order to save the HAC assuming you don't want to touch Tier 3 BC the best solutions probably lie in unconventional mechanics and tweaking bonuses - quite the same as with techy frigates (mitigation bonuses, things like speed and sig). At the same time that presents a problem, because a poor core balance lead to specialized attention where the bonuses make the ship - which is the case for many frigates now.
Personally i was quite happy with the actual performance balance before Tier 3 BC were introduced. The only thing needed back then was market issues related to invention, production and insurance. |
Emperor Salazar
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
252
|
Posted - 2011.12.12 18:09:00 -
[27] - Quote
Duchess Starbuckington wrote:Takeshi Yamato wrote:HACs don't need buffing, Battlecruisers need nerfing. They do too much dps for one and are too cheap for what they can do. This. At the very least the Drake and Hurricane need a nerf.
Agreed. |
Takeshi Yamato
ALA Biomedical
35
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Posted - 2011.12.12 18:33:00 -
[28] - Quote
Glad to see support for this. HACs are not the only ones being marginalized by BCs, T1 cruisers suffer probably even more. We don't see this happening with destroyers and frigates because destroyers fill a niche and have specific drawbacks. |
Ninevite
Shiva
8
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Posted - 2011.12.12 18:45:00 -
[29] - Quote
can we give the Ishtar 100% resists to everything? I think that would balance out the playing field a bit |
Lykouleon
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
365
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Posted - 2011.12.12 18:53:00 -
[30] - Quote
Anny Jackson wrote:... What else?
Nano hurricane is pants compared to a Vaga or a cynabal.
Sniper HAC gangs are still viable, fun, and can't be outclassed by a sniper BC gang.
Nano HAC gangs will kicks the pants out of a nano BC gang any day of the week if the FC isn't a complete rere.
AB HAC gangs will kick a BC gang to the curb.
The only reason the Hurricane and Drake are preferable to a HAC currently is that pilots can easily roll their heads across their F1-F8 keys without getting too much drool on their keyboards. And they're cheaper when they get killed due to pilot error. A good HAC pilot actually needs to have an IQ above that of a snail.
Lykouleon > CYNO ME CLOSER SO I CAN HIT THEM WITH MY SWORD
WIdot Director of Quality Control and Ironically Signing My Title to Posts To Make People ~mad~ |
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