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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 8 post(s) |
Aerasia
Republic University Minmatar Republic
130
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Posted - 2015.10.15 22:51:38 -
[1] - Quote
I'm not convinced it will actually do anything as there is that fundamental requirement of spare SP to start the process.
I get the feeling this is going to find a blocker in that the main source of spare SP (veteran players) are either: A) Going to be very e-peen about their SP totals, and unwilling to give it up. B) Continually training alts for tasks instead of just junk training on their main, so they're not going to actually be able to skim off unused SP.
That being said, my only real complaint about the system itself is that it's founded on the assumption that SP is a necessary evil for the game. |
Aerasia
Republic University Minmatar Republic
130
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Posted - 2015.10.16 00:23:05 -
[2] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Aerasia wrote:I'm not convinced it will actually do anything as there is that fundamental requirement of spare SP to start the process.
I get the feeling this is going to find a blocker in that the main source of spare SP (veteran players) are either: A) Going to be very e-peen about their SP totals, and unwilling to give it up. B) Continually training alts for tasks instead of just junk training on their main, so they're not going to actually be able to skim off unused SP.
That being said, my only real complaint about the system itself is that it's founded on the assumption that SP is a necessary evil for the game. The character training currently intentionally fueling the character bazaar will likely end up being in part transitioned to this mechanic. I won't speculate on how well used it will be, but I don't see it going unused. If it's only repurposing the CB characters then impact is minimal. Same amount of SP on the market (less possibly, considering the proposed transfer tax). |
Aerasia
Republic University Minmatar Republic
130
|
Posted - 2015.10.16 00:39:58 -
[3] - Quote
Don ZOLA wrote:After that turbo start he realizes the game is quite slow unless he wants to keep spending more and more money to speed it until he gets comfortable with sp. Pity that in the most cases he will not have any idea what he needs/wants. Because that is what you learn while your skills are training.
...
There is definitely need to find a way to attract and keep new players, but this is not the proper one. Maybe they could start with doing something about the fact it apparently takes several months to even figure out what you want to put your skills into?
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Aerasia
Republic University Minmatar Republic
131
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Posted - 2015.10.16 02:47:50 -
[4] - Quote
Estevan Andrard wrote:Yeah, they can just join EVE, buy themselves some SPs, go out, be blown up by those with the SP AND the actual skill in pvp, As opposed to not having the SP and 'go out, be blown up by those with the SP AND the actual skill'?
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Aerasia
Republic University Minmatar Republic
131
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Posted - 2015.10.16 03:23:23 -
[5] - Quote
Estevan Andrard wrote:People dont quit eve because skill points prevent them to play. Just as nobody buys from the CB, because it doesn't get you anything but SP.
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Aerasia
Republic University Minmatar Republic
131
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Posted - 2015.10.16 04:27:36 -
[6] - Quote
Akako Higanjima wrote:Which, I suppose, is why we're all here commenting. I'd say most people here are commenting just because they're scared some newbies Important Internets Spaceship Number will get closer to the veterans Important Internets Spaceship Number without the appropriate paying of dues and kissing of rings.
Estevan Andrard wrote:That is reason enough to consider that skill and progression is being driven to the death row. We can only hope. |
Aerasia
Republic University Minmatar Republic
132
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Posted - 2015.10.16 15:53:32 -
[7] - Quote
Jill Xelitras wrote:Solution: start everyone out with all skills trained. I've been suggesting that for years.
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Aerasia
Republic University Minmatar Republic
132
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Posted - 2015.10.16 21:58:15 -
[8] - Quote
Vic Jefferson wrote:And why is that? People were happy playing this game for years (decades!) at a time when they couldn't buy SP. Do you need somebody to drag up the first posts in 2003 of people complaining about the SP system?
"If SP was ever really that much of a problem, how would you explain 12 years so far?" - I could replace "SP" with "Theme-Park" in that sentence, if you want to see some real salt.
"Again, most people are happy with increasing SP even further for new players" - Depends on which parts of the EVE forums you frequent, I suppose.
"but this way is, at best terribly circuitous and at worst blackmailing character progression." - I'm partially agreed here: Paying for progress isn't a great end-state. But are you willing to push solving the issue for good and just remove SP entirely?
"Pointing the finger at SP when there are far larger elephants in the room seems derpy." - Are there bigger elephants in the room? Can I bug CCP Quant for that data?
"EvE takes time...Time to trust people, time to find the right corp, time to do everything. Having a steady incline of ships, costs, and the risks you can take is good while you begin to explore New Eden." - Why should this incline be determined by the SP you're being drip-fed, instead of the ISK you've been generating through learning how to play?
"Again. Fix the leaks first. Figure out why people are leaving, why veterans aren't getting new players into the game." - Are you willing to break NDA to show the figures that SP climbs aren't why people are leaving and Vets have such a hard time getting their friends to play?
"Getting into bigger more expensive ships faster is not going to make everyone happier." - So nobody should be happy unless we know the single solution to making everyone happy?
"The people with the big and shiny ships are leaving just as anyone else, what would prevent a newer player from the same thing if he or she had said ships?" - What makes keeping people around for a few months while they work towards a goal, and then leaving when they realize the goal is boring (i.e. "Leveling a Raven") better than letting them see what the gameplay is like to begin with and leave or stay based on how fun the game is?
Edit: Putting in links to original posts because this threadnaught is still moving at 2 pages a minute. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6104544#post6104544 |
Aerasia
Republic University Minmatar Republic
133
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Posted - 2015.10.17 18:50:03 -
[9] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:create an awesome toon, play for a few months ..... get bored what next As opposed to "Start a skill plan for a toon of your choice, play for a few weeks, get bored what('s) next?"
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Aerasia
Republic University Minmatar Republic
134
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Posted - 2015.10.17 20:32:50 -
[10] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Your paying your sub for that and there are alot more things to keep you happy now as opposed to 9+ years ago, granted if you have been in game a certain length of time the best option is to max the queue and leave it for a month or so but its not costing you anything over your subs. I'll admit, my English isn't good enough to parse whatever's being said here. The one piece that sticks out for me is:
"alot more things to keep you happy now"
If you want to argue that skipping the SP grind would cause players to leave because they're bored, the necessary implication is that EVE itself isn't fun. It has no "things to keep you happy".
That basically makes EVE the equivalent of SWTOR: Nice story while you're leveling, but un-sub as soon as you hit end game. Except SP doesn't even provide a nice story, so the real description you're arguing for is "Get annoyed waiting for months to do something you don't like." |
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Aerasia
Republic University Minmatar Republic
134
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Posted - 2015.10.17 22:14:51 -
[11] - Quote
Jasmine Heap wrote:If you won't value my TIME as much as you value my MONEY, I won't value your game. "Value my time" by making me wait for months to get SP.
#justEVEthings. |
Aerasia
Republic University Minmatar Republic
134
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Posted - 2015.10.18 02:03:11 -
[12] - Quote
CCP Terminus wrote:Roughly 70 characters are traded per day, not per month. Something like 25000 a year give or take.
Some more data: - Most traded characters are 50 million SP or lower. - A good portion of trades are to newer players (measured by new customers not just new accounts). Interesting. I'm going out on a limb that there aren't a lot of 10M SP characters being bought, so let's say an average of 25-30M (or, roughly 1 year old).
That's 625-750,000,000,000 SP changing hands every year. Or, 1,500,000 skill extractors used. Post-extractor, that's also going to mean a lot of SP burned by the tax. 10% doesn't seem to unreasonable: 75 Billion SP/year up in smoke due to extractor tax? That's 3,000 years worth of SP burned away for injection costs.
50,000 PLEX consumed by transfer fees, or ~$850,000 USD. That amount of PLEX accounts for ~25 days of sales volume in Jita. It makes you wonder what the PLEX converted extractor cost will be.
I do envy Quant's job. <3
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Aerasia
Republic University Minmatar Republic
134
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Posted - 2015.10.18 03:36:10 -
[13] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:Pay to win? no, but what about Pay to keep up You run the Bus. Of all the CSMs, I was kind of expecting you to be the one who's dislike of this was because it was too small a step. I harp on getting rid of SP whenever the opportunity comes up, because I find it a pointless and outdated mechanic.
Mike Azariah wrote: the rich instaboosting themselves into better ships and leaving the normal subscription player behind in the dust Why are we putting multi-month barriers in front of the new players to begin with? If you're worried about the space-rich ISKing themselves to 'SP victory', isn't the problem the SP power spread - not the payment plan?
Mike Azariah wrote:full of +5's and never ever undocking into space? Which is exactly the problem driving the removal of attributes. Except it's with actual players who don't want to undock because they don't want to lose those SP.
I guess I'm just confused that your issue with the system seems to be that providing a way to "Pay to keep up" will just be a money drain that won't benefit those new players. But you seem to actually enjoy/appreciate the "Real Time for skill training", despite that barrier being exactly why people would be so tempted to pay into this scheme.
Mr Epeen wrote:While I don't really agree with much of what you said, I am going to +1 you for coming in here an sharing your thoughts in a concise and understandable way without resorting to outlandish rhetoric, fear mongering, and attacks on CCP. +1 |
Aerasia
Republic University Minmatar Republic
134
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Posted - 2015.10.18 03:44:49 -
[14] - Quote
Tristan Agion wrote:A big problem is that the new content is not becoming available roughly linear with time. Oddly enough, content is actually "back loaded" rather heavily.
Your first 20M SP will be a lot of broad support skills: gunnery, piloting, +5% to this, +2.5% to that, etc. Once those are done though all you have left is the 'unlock new hull/weapon' skills. Getting "Mastery IV" in one hull gives you that for almost every hull in that class, and gets you most of the way there for almost every ship for that faction.
So you get your Cruiser support skills all topped up. That takes the better part of a year to do. What's left to move up to Battleships?
Faction BS Large Weapon ... Large Drones?
Those skills take longer, to be sure. I think for most just getting ship & gun up to V is something like 60 days. But that's still nothing compared to the initial support skill investment. And you have those nearly perfectly skilled Cruisers to fly in the meantime.
I'll admit - I'm going to be very tempted to top off those support skills if/when this goes live. I've been waiting nearly a decade for decently skilled combat sub-caps. Maybe 2016 is the year.
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Aerasia
Republic University Minmatar Republic
134
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Posted - 2015.10.19 05:23:51 -
[15] - Quote
Mag's wrote:This reply just makes it look like a done deal. How many features have even made it to the Dev blog stage without being implemented?
Someone with a truly silver tongue may be able to get CCP to tweak some settings, but this was a 'done deal' by the time it hit the CSM Summit.
What I'm looking forward to? The threadnaught spawned from the first Epic Arc that rewards completion with a skill packet.
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Aerasia
Republic University Minmatar Republic
134
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Posted - 2015.10.19 06:43:37 -
[16] - Quote
CCP Terminus wrote:Which is why we're taking extra care with this feature. In this case the dev blog came out before any implementation. Don't get me wrong, sarcasm aside I don't have any real issues with this idea. I'm firmly in the "This is basically the Bazaar, only less difficult to use" camp.
Which doesn't mean there isn't a cabal of incredibly vocal players ready to shout down any affront to tradition.
Jeremiah Saken wrote:Player A is traing his manufacturing skills to produce modules (it will take some time) Player B bought skills to maufacture said modules (he will have them instantly) You're forgetting that A isn't competing with B. Both players are competing with: Player C, who's been playing for years and has the set of level V skills that makes new players have to wait so long to be competitive in the market to begin with.
In a technical sense, buying SP from the market gives B an advantage over A. But neither of them are going to be able to sell their wares until they've been brought even with C. This is exactly the barrier to entry that drives the Character Bazaar in the first place.
Maetel Lithium wrote:I could set up 10 jita alts, never undock and just sell skill points. There are 25,000 characters traded each year on the Bazaar. Where exactly did you think they trained? |
Aerasia
Republic University Minmatar Republic
134
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Posted - 2015.10.19 18:40:58 -
[17] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:This is an amazing recruiting tool for them and the other large alliances. Getting the SP necessary to play the game is an amazing recruiting tool you say?
Oh, if only there were some way for CCP to address that directly instead of hoping 5,000 Goons will build a NPE support system.
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Aerasia
Republic University Minmatar Republic
135
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Posted - 2015.10.19 19:04:54 -
[18] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:The Goons already have the best NPE system in the game. I haven't thrown in with them, so I can't say. I hear their late game is a bit boring though.
I'd just really love to see an EVE which manages to avoid that 'bugger all to do' SP wall. I'd love to think the goonies might do that (and even had a thread to that effect), but it shouldn't be their burden in the first place.
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Aerasia
Republic University Minmatar Republic
135
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Posted - 2015.10.19 22:11:03 -
[19] - Quote
Primary This Rifter wrote:ColdBeauty wrote:Moac Tor wrote:I can definitley see why the leaders of PL, goons, and others are so fiercely in favour of this. Exactly what I thought as soon as Elise Randolph went on the charm offensive on reddit and various goons started backing this on the forum. They can go **** themselves. They're just as bad as all the miners who whined about barge HP until CCP finally caved and buffed it. A bit off topic, but depending on who you listen to the mining barge buff was also Goons. |
Aerasia
Republic University Minmatar Republic
137
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Posted - 2015.10.20 02:02:25 -
[20] - Quote
Soltys wrote:You have balls to finally turn this antique pseudo-progression mechanics borrowed from antique mmos over a decade ago. It serves no purpose in this game, besides creating artificial wall. It never did anything more than that. Are... are you my alt?
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Aerasia
Republic University Minmatar Republic
137
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Posted - 2015.10.20 18:27:31 -
[21] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:Please dont take this the wrong way that was very informative and a good read but didnt actually say why a player would stay any length of time if a core mechanic of the game was such a problem they would continue to play for anything upto 12 years. The numbers aren't public, but I'd imagine most people who trial EVE don't sub. 50% of those who do sub are gone within a month. 90% of those who do sub are gone within 6 months. What represents the overall churn for EVE? 99.9% no longer playing? 99.999%? More? Of that small percent, 25,000 characters are purchased each year to skip the SP grind.
"A vanishingly small, nearly imperceptible percentage of people can stomach the SP system and therefore it's fine." isn't a convincing argument.
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Aerasia
Republic University Minmatar Republic
138
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Posted - 2015.10.21 03:14:53 -
[22] - Quote
Caldari 5 wrote: EG SP Cap = Age * Max Training Speed with Optimized Attribs or SP Cap = Age * Max Training Speed with Optimized Attribs + some Fixed Value
The first one is my preferred one.
SP Cap = 25 Million SP
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