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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 8 post(s) |
Jared Khanar
3
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Posted - 2015.10.16 18:39:05 -
[1] - Quote
Reposting because orig thread got locked and this is the official thread the isd pointed to (there is a little hope left devs are reading this, although I know ccp is going to ignore all of this - as they always do
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=451034&p=2
NOOOOOOOOO!
Quote: Because this is "even more" pay to win in a subscription game. I know one could discuss about this all day long but: with plex and eve-¦s gameplay featuring bigger ships, bigger blobs - even now the rl wallet may decide who-¦s winning if opponents are equally skilled.
- if you only pay your monthly subscription you need to farm / earn all the isk you need to play eve - if you additionally throw money at ccp you can get rid of that part completely - you can pay for simultanious training of another char on your account, a.s.o. - your ability to spend additional money shapes and formes your gaming experience in a major way, many of this features reminds me of things like additional inventar slots in pay to win games - is eve providing equal possibilities and fair chances for everyone like it should be (in a subscription game) - does this even sound like a monthly subscription game any more?
Also you can-¦t compare this SP selling and buying with the existing character bazaar, because this allows you to carefully craft a character the way you choose if you throw enough money at it.
The planned future of eve is getting more and more obvious. But please: This is not a stealth microtransaction game for rich ******
This is a covered skills for rl money exchange - in it-¦s last consequence we could also delete the existing skillsystem now and buy skills directly from ccp instead of other players.
"We promise to never ever do this" - CCP But then they thought greed is good - and they tried ... and tried again... and tried again... It-¦s like the frog in boiling water.
Quote: RL money / or Plex => Aurum => SP Package Transaction
If I understood this right this could only lead to rising plex prices - someone who gets aurum with RL cash doesn-¦t need to buy plex for the market - someone who uses plex to get aurum buys them off the market - please correct me if i-¦m wrong - but if not - expect plexes to skyrocket like never before...
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Jared Khanar
4
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Posted - 2015.10.17 18:17:31 -
[2] - Quote
It-¦s amusing to read all this "hey we will all profit from it selling sp-¦s from our active accounts - this will earn us our plex" opinions.
Just to counter this a little bit with another one:
I don-¦t think sp value will be determinated by plex value as with all markets there is demand and ... i know you know ;)
so wich scenarios are possibly happening if this feature hits tranquility?
As literally everyone should have noticed it by then the market will be flooded with sp packages at first. The often mentioned new players are not here - so if they are the main target group this feature aims at (as many like to point out) sp for selling will have literally now value - as noone will buy it... if there are not enough people willing to buy them a huge deflation of sp value will follow. this will also affect character bazaar, maybe to a point when it will be a major loss plexing accounts to train them for selling. (very high sp chars may be excluded) if this happens a lot of people will have spend rl money / ingametime for plexes just to notice that these investments will be burned right away.
The more people selling sps the more value sps are loosing if theres no customer base - the more value sps are loosing, the higher the breaking point at wich there are too many sps on a char to justify the costs.
Now let me add speculation and scamming into this projection, if ccp does not cleary bann abusing, scamming and speculation on this feature. (this is definetly going to happen - don-¦t be naive)
Whats happening if speculation kicks in can be observed looking at the plex price. It may take a short while until the markets are flooded with cheap sps (at least i would wait until this if i would speculate) but then a rise is going to happen over time. This will go on until noone is willing to pay for sps anymore because its not affordable for the average player. (again - look at the plex) The argument "its for the newbz" is clearly invalid! It-¦s for the rich - and noone else.
Another characteristic of eve players is: just throw more ***** at it (*** = insert players, isk, money, power projection, a.s.o.) A coalition of players that wants to stay in control and is able to pay whatever is needed to pay - do whatever is needed to do should realise that sps are now a ressource like ore or gas. If you want to be in charge it-¦s absolutly necessary to control the ressources and possibilities your opponent has access to. So again, this also counts for sps - if your enemies are able to push themselves to your level and compete with your abilities you need to do anything to stop this or at least make it harder and harder for others to do so.
Plexes today gets hoarded although it may be not able for some traders / investors to cash out without damaging their theoretical asset values. This will also happen to sp. they will be bought for speculation, hoarded and all that stuff.
Also in a case like this sp trading is clearly not able to serve any role for new players, expect they have a sufficient rl wallet and are prepared to spend it.
And it goes on:
So lets assume players like to earn the isk they need to plex their account via selling sps - this is only possible if they run multiple accounts. A single account player would be able to do this also, but he / she would instantly stop any characterprogression. So for the average player it-¦s a choice between outcome and progression. a case like this would only extend the gap between the (ingame + rl !!!) rich and poor, disabling the second ones even more to catch up.
As a last one, let-¦s mix some of these thoughts. If sp prices are on a level where it-¦s possible to buy plex on the market, train your sps, extract them via plex (to buy aurum) and even then sell them with a profit, what will happen?
First of all this will destroy massive amounts of plex. plex prices are going to skyrocket to the point where it-¦s not profitable anymore to do so. But this is only counting if sp prices remain static -belive me, they won-¦t. the higher the costs involved, the higher the sp value on sell. So plex prices and sp prices may start rising, puching each other higer and higher. If you take the massive amounts of hoarded plex into account it-¦s clearly a feature seculators dream of and holders of large plex stacks dream of. Only a situation like this will allow them to drop their stacks without destroying the markets.
I don-¦t want to talk about the effects it would have on the character bazaar as sp value will clearly affect it...
Due to all this it seems to me there are only a few small groups clearly in need of this. First of all it-¦s ccp - this will be a massive cash drop for them in a subscription game. The have made something happening which every other gaming company dreams of. TWO Payment models in the same game - subscription and microtransaction - and the resulting pressure in the community to use both of them if you want to be able to play AND compete with others. Second one are the rich players, speculators and scammers that would be enabled to milk the crowd.
Thanks |
Jared Khanar
5
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Posted - 2015.10.17 20:31:42 -
[3] - Quote
Morihei Akachi wrote:Surely thereGÇÖs something a bit problematic about a situation in which new players are confronted with a suboptimal game experience and then offered an option to pay extra in order to avoid it. On one reading, that's providing freedom of choice; on another, though, it's just bad game design. I'd be inclined to go for the latter.
Welcome to the world of microtransactions. If it is good game design you won-¦t pay a dime to ... "ignore" it - thats how this works - expect more of both to come in eve |
Jared Khanar
6
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Posted - 2015.10.17 21:04:13 -
[4] - Quote
@ Dave Stark
You, defending a clearly destructive feature, seem to have a personal outcome of this. Tell us please what is it? I-¦m very curious.
You also seem to have thought about this very long and are clearly having good arguments for it.
Please tell me your opinion to one of my previous posts: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6106535#post6106535
I-¦m willing to view this feature positivly if you please be so kind to invalidate my worries.
Thanks |
Jared Khanar
7
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Posted - 2015.10.17 21:16:12 -
[5] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote: i'm not defending anything.
i'm just pointing out that literally every "issue" that could possibly come from this we already have from the character bazaar.
my personal outcome? the vain hope that some one can actually give a reason why *this* idea is bad, not why something we already have is bad.
i haven't had to think about it very long at all - all the counterarguments have been known for ages since all the "issues" are things we already have. people can already "pay to win" (******* lol, it's not even remotely close to that) yet somehow apparently it's only an issue if this is added? come on now.
if you think this system is destructive - well, then so is the character bazaar and eve hasn't imploded yet so i sincerely doubt this idea will cause the servers to spontaneously combust.
Just because there is already something that has a specific form or effects doesn-¦t mean everything else should be changed to reflect this or new things have to be introduced that also follow this manner in more offensive ways. This also doesn-¦t make the "negative" effects fanish if you put more things like this in - it accumulates them.
EDIT: I-¦m very sad you haven-¦t commented my linked post ;) |
Jared Khanar
7
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Posted - 2015.10.17 21:36:23 -
[6] - Quote
player: But your game is ******* boring to play until you have 50 mio SP or more ccp: pay me money and you haven-¦t to player: wait ... even with 50mio sp this game is boring [repeat]
A little hint: if it-¦s boring it-¦s your own fault and no money you spend will change that |
Jared Khanar
9
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Posted - 2015.10.17 22:00:02 -
[7] - Quote
Nindae wrote:As many people before me said, pay-to-win comes to EVE with this idea. And for more, last remnants of possible role play will go to hell as well with that. As is written in devblog, history of a character is lost, but it is not an advantage, it destroys the very soul of EVE, where the reputation of your character mean a lot. Are you cheater and thief? No problem, suck out SP, delete old char and create new one and twink it up with stolen money and start again. If I want to deal with idiotic kiddy twinks with rich parents, I can go play WoW. And when you for example did a decision to choose miner path and now you want to be explorer? Good, but behave like adult and just skill up for the new path without this SP sucking absurdity. Like in real life. Current SP system makes EVE special, as EVE is the only true virtual world and one of last true online RPGs, where your virtual life means something. Please do not destroy it with this stupidity, do not alter EVE into another idiotic F2P pay-to-win trash, where spoiled brats destroy gameplay of the others with money of their parents. Because that would be an end of EVE.
Well maybe it-¦s seems like a good idea to some, letting a baby drive a car (because the money - and we need to sell cars). It doesn-¦t matter that it should learn to walk and talk and all that stuff instead (there is no teacher anyway because... everyone is producing ... cars !?). And ofcourse think of the political incorrectness if you deny a baby that pleasure. All these car driving one-¦s are clearly only worried about their status, if they don-¦t chear over this. Also this will boost our entire economy. More doctors are needed, more oil, more everything for everyone ^^ |
Jared Khanar
10
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Posted - 2015.10.17 22:09:07 -
[8] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote: The bazaar is on their forums and they control the transfer process, they may have never explicitly said we support it, but given the years they've facilitated it, I think they support it.
You need to pay plex to transfer a character. It-¦s a bit strange to not support something on one hand, and get payed for it on the other. If they indeed do not support this, how nice they have been to implement a way to transfer payment to them, anyway. This has clearly been a selfless present for their community. |
Jared Khanar
10
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Posted - 2015.10.17 22:22:18 -
[9] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote: And it will cost money for a new player to get to the same level. In fact, depending on the amount of SP, quite a bit more RL money.
CCP shows a history of pushing more and more into cheap features that they want to get extra payment for. Ship skins made of simple textures a good artist does in minutes / maybe half an hour, multiple character training, many more things and now this...
Does this not concern you if you take a look into the future, following this path? If ccp gets away with this, what is going to happen next time? They tried this over and over in the past - sometimes they succeeded, sometimes the community won. But they try harder and harder. |
Jared Khanar
11
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Posted - 2015.10.17 22:36:24 -
[10] - Quote
Terraj Oknatis wrote: AFK farming of skill points will probably become a thing. I guarantee you it will be possible, and someone will figure out that you can have a bunch of alts training skill points, gut them, repackage their skill points into packs and sell those. And support all of this with plex bought with isk. I think this will actually add to the total skill points in the game. There is one exploit right there. CCP doesn't like bottling? Well you don't even need to be a bot you don't even need to play to win. Just sit on alts who are training skill points.
Just think of all these cyno alts and so on some alliances have. they are payed, not training anything ... last fanfest they have shown numbers on this (which group has most alts) if i remember correct. I wouldn-¦t wonder if some, supporting this feature, are connected to these.
Guess who-¦s going to profit? |
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Jared Khanar
11
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Posted - 2015.10.17 23:29:00 -
[11] - Quote
Jasmine Heap wrote:Even though SP must be extracted to be packaged and sold, it will always be readily available to anyone who wants it.
yes, the devblog mentioned the exact way this is going to work. But this is nothing to talk about. It-¦s absolutly the same if you drive with a car to new york or by train or if you dance the whole way with both hands in the air. The moment you arrive theres this big bad guy waiting to beat the **** out of you, no matter how you got there :) |
Jared Khanar
11
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Posted - 2015.10.18 08:45:38 -
[12] - Quote
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:Well, apparently this pay-to-win idea is becoming a turd that's gonna be shoved down our throat we want it or don't. So let's negotiate how large, soft and smelly should be the turd.
Well, thats a nice thinking :) Really , I like it.
If you see the waiter peeing in your beer it-¦s absolutly ok to tell him "please do this an hour bevore you serve it, so the pee gets cold - cause warm pee warms also up my beer and that doesn-¦t taste well...". You can also decide that pee is not bad, because it doesn-¦t kill you, so don-¦t panic if the waiter pees also in your milk and cocktails. That-¦s ok, because you are already drinking said liquid in other forms. And if he does, you should also accept the rise in payments your waiter charges. He is clearly rising the value of your drinks, providing additional service, so charging not only their related prices is naturally and good. And how happy we are to notice that our waiter can only pee that much. Everyone of us can now sell their pee, because theres clearly a demand for this ... No one with a brain could refuse, it !? Better discuss the way he shakes of. Because if it-¦s to the right, thats absolutly shocking and not acceptable. How dumb he could be to do this!? But if he shakes right - it-¦s absolutly ok. Noone could doubt this. It-¦s the only way this should be done...
But some people don-¦t like drinking pee, even if its mixed with spices and honey. They simply choose to leave... |
Jared Khanar
11
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Posted - 2015.10.18 08:54:43 -
[13] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Question for the ill suited to figure it out on their own, but what is the distinction in this case? I think it hard to argue people buy characters for simple age over ability, so while SP takes time to accrue, it's not the time a buyer would be after, but rather the abilities that come from the SP.
If I'm missing something, do tell please.
If it-¦s all about enabling abilities, this can be provided in many other way. You can alter SP requirements, and so on. It-¦s not that hard to alter existing features without additional costs for the player. But as this is designed it-¦s centered around additional cash income for ccp - advantages for money. If you support this, or not doesn-¦t matter. Please see this clearly as it is. |
Jared Khanar
11
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Posted - 2015.10.18 09:06:07 -
[14] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:That it could bring in income for CCP is in my mind a non-argument as I see no reason that they shouldn't be able to monetize this ability, and well should do so to prevent overly frivolous use should it come into being.
Well if you like the idea to pay for features that gives advantages in a subscription based game your good to go :) |
Jared Khanar
12
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Posted - 2015.10.18 09:14:14 -
[15] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:I play a game with PLEX, allowing people to have in game funds so long as they spend out of game funds.
If I had an issue with this while continuing to play I'd be less than reasonable I'd think.
Sadly the idea to pay to have access to the game, pay additionaly to get funds, pay additionaly to progress, pay additionally to do xyz is not everyones number one choice. If the community changes in a way that support this, ccp will surely focus on this even further. If you see no problem in this, thats fine. Have a great time in a game like this ;) |
Jared Khanar
12
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Posted - 2015.10.18 09:28:01 -
[16] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote: But beyond the typical slippery slope what objections do you have?
If have edited my last posting, you may also like to read my history in this thread. Allow me to not repost all this. |
Jared Khanar
12
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Posted - 2015.10.18 09:44:33 -
[17] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote: You only furthered the slippery slope and worse, assumed I felt some obligation to participate in every service CCP offers, existing or otherwise.
That considered I hope you'll excuse my not wanting to review your post history for more of the same.
It-¦s your good right to hold prejudices without checking. Please proceed. I-¦m gone soon anyways :) |
Jared Khanar
12
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Posted - 2015.10.18 10:24:30 -
[18] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Jared Khanar wrote:I only hope your RL wallet supports this, but as your are able to pay for not having to play (or at least minimize the needed time to do so) you are ofcourse having more time for your rl work to get the needed money you have to give to ccp. I'm having trouble interpreting this as anything but a claim that I buy PLEX from CCP to avoid having to play certain parts of the game. If you intended it otherwise please do explain.
It-¦s an generall outcome in my opinion - if the words are choosen in a irritating way - exchange "you" with "someone" |
Jared Khanar
15
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Posted - 2015.10.18 12:29:47 -
[19] - Quote
Imagine Alliance XYZ. They have trained to fly a specific doctrine because it-¦s the most efficient one. There are many alts involved to support fleets and stuff. They are rich ingamewise and reaching their goals.
Now a feature like sp trading is implemented. As eve is changing constantly this alliance is forced to build up sp farms and activly use it. Why could this be?
Imagine new ships, modifications of existing ones... suddenly the doctrine of this alliance is nomore as effective as they would like to. Maybe they can easily be countered now... so a new doctrine gets developed by fc-¦s and alliance leadership - the new most effective doctrine within the new mechanics. but people have trained for the old doctrines, for the old fittings and fleets. with an established alt-sp farm (the alts are there and payed and their sps are maybe not needed for their purposes) this alliance is now able to almost instantly switch their pvp characters to the new developed doctrine. this may involve huge amounts of isk, but massive alliances are able to pay. so opponents without these sp farms or without the needed assets / isks are suddenly no more competitive within hours. also the choices made bevorehand - which skills to train, which ships to head for, have no impact anymore.
Also, as a side effect, this system can easily be exploited by ccp itself. if something like described above is happening and the company needs money, theres no reason not to change some small apsects here and there, generating an outcome that motivates players to sell / buy / reallocate sps for that instant, needed cashdrop? |
Jared Khanar
15
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Posted - 2015.10.18 12:37:17 -
[20] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:
this is literally no different to the situation we have now.
sell the pilot that can't fly the new doctrine, buy one that can.
****, for a decent price you can get one that can fly pretty much all the doctrines to begin with. for less than 100m SP there's very few subcap doctrines you can't fly well.
not to mention you're casually ignoring the logistics of moving/producing thousands of new doctrine ships - which pretty much always has been and always will be a bigger issue than getting people able to fly them.
hs, low, null, wh - is it all the same? is everyone in need to import their stuff, flying through the half universe tio get it to their members? Are there enough characters on the bazaar to buy one for every member in your alliance? is this really the same we have today? Changes are not announced early enough so we can prepare production? Really?
And if it really is all the same - why introduce something that has no impact in the first place? |
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Jared Khanar
15
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Posted - 2015.10.18 12:45:34 -
[21] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote: the game has been out 3-4 times longer than i've been playing. i can fly literally every subcap with t2 weapons, perfect supports etc. had i not bothered training things like exhumers V i would be a perfect subcap pilot and then some.
characters like mine aren't rare on the bazaar. most people already have them, you don't need to get all of your alliance new characters, just the new characters themselves. looking at the PCU - how many new characters do you think that really is?
the demand is nowhere near as high as i think you think it is.
So what are the positive effects from a feature without demand, that affects noone, cause you can do everything it brings already now? What else than milking the players wallet further? |
Jared Khanar
17
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Posted - 2015.10.18 12:53:18 -
[22] - Quote
ship replacement programs get extended with sp accumulation programs :D Then recruit a few hundred f1 drones and launch your project ... |
Jared Khanar
18
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Posted - 2015.10.18 12:55:58 -
[23] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote: where did i avoid it? he claimed there was no demand in this feature and as such what was the value. his question is irrelevant since there quite obviously is a demand for it.
i demonstrated there was value in it, because there is a demand for it. i quite literally answered his question.
I didn-¦t claim this, i ask why do you?
Dave Stark wrote: characters like mine aren't rare on the bazaar. most people already have them, you don't need to get all of your alliance new characters, just the new characters themselves. looking at the PCU - how many new characters do you think that really is?
the demand is nowhere near as high as i think you think it is.
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Jared Khanar
18
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Posted - 2015.10.18 12:59:51 -
[24] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote: it was the OPENING LINE of your post.
ok why not:
Dave Stark wrote: this is literally no different to the situation we have now.
Something that is obsolete is not needed - your statement - so i ask again - if implementing this feature doesn-¦t change anything because we already can do everything it brings - as you say - why do we need it? |
Jared Khanar
19
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Posted - 2015.10.18 13:07:01 -
[25] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Portmanteau wrote:This I agree with 100%, however paying more RL cash on top of a subscription to get enough SPs to compete is going to leave a nasty taste for a lot of new guys, that's how many will perceive this. they aren't paying more RL cash, though. they can either pay for 10 months SP now, or pay for 10 months sp one month at a time and accumulate it over 10 months. the total paid is the same, as is the amount of SP. scratch that, the "extra" you pay will be the cost of extractors. which remains to be seen...
So it has the effect they are paying all this rl cash INSTANTLY. how nice they are to give ccp the money for maybe a year as soon as they arrive ... money ccp would have to wait soooo long until they get their hands on it (what a shame, isn-¦t it?). And if you can fly the ship you like now... maybe as a new player ... theres clearly no need to invest in further plexes to buy these ... or alts to support them ... which also get an sp boost maybe ...
Got it :) |
Jared Khanar
19
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Posted - 2015.10.18 13:21:13 -
[26] - Quote
Simply ty sp generation non-linear to character age if on a payed account - the older the char gets - the lower the generation - maybe cap at xy mio sp so generationspeed gets not lower anymore. newer players catching up - problem solved. no need for additional payment. coded in maybe hours only - cheap development. |
Jared Khanar
19
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Posted - 2015.10.18 13:25:23 -
[27] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Jared Khanar wrote:Simply ty sp generation non-linear to character age if on a payed account - the older the char gets - the lower the generation - newer players catching up - problem solved Ehmmmmm..... that's already the case, go check the time vs. benefit of lvl V skills.
Ok, thnx for the info it this is correct. But obvious there are voices that needs it to be faster. if this system is implemented already - even a shorter devtime is needed to change it :) |
Jared Khanar
19
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Posted - 2015.10.18 13:40:42 -
[28] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Jared Khanar wrote:Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Jared Khanar wrote:Simply ty sp generation non-linear to character age if on a payed account - the older the char gets - the lower the generation - newer players catching up - problem solved Ehmmmmm..... that's already the case, go check the time vs. benefit of lvl V skills. EDIT: thats a different mechanic i believe - i refer to generall / overall sp generation speed not bound to a specific skill or its level Yeah, I got that. But the only point of SP is to get skills, and the only point of skills is to do stuff and do it better. The rapidly increasing lvl I-II-III-IV-V SP requirements compared to the linear benefits that each level gives already reach the practical result you're suggesting: newbros getting closer to vets faster, in terms of what they can fly and skill-related bonuses.
Yes it is - but look around - all the ones crying about not having enough sp to do anything ... !? Ignoring the fact that a 1-5 month old character can survive and succeed even solo in low, null, wh if the player knows what he / shes doing / how fun can be gained / depending on the self choosen goals ... |
Jared Khanar
20
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Posted - 2015.10.18 13:56:47 -
[29] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote: the idea isn't anything new. buying and selling sp has already existed. if people are turned off buy it they've already been turned off. likewise if they're a fan of the idea.
How can we already BUY and SELL SP (not characters - sp!) Even after all these years i-¦m here i haven-¦t heard of it - please teach me |
Jared Khanar
20
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Posted - 2015.10.18 14:00:48 -
[30] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Jared Khanar wrote:Dave Stark wrote: the idea isn't anything new. buying and selling sp has already existed. if people are turned off buy it they've already been turned off. likewise if they're a fan of the idea.
How can we already BUY and SELL SP (not characters - sp!) Even after all these years i-¦m here i haven-¦t heard of it - please teach me do i really have to wheel out the still unanswered "which system am i describing" question? really?
Yes, please be gracious to this stupid person i am most of the time :) |
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Jared Khanar
21
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Posted - 2015.10.18 14:08:31 -
[31] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote: ok then.
i start with a character with a set of skills i don't like. i end up with a character with a set of skills i do like.
which system am i describing, the old one or the new one?
this is called question - not answer - as demanded - just to note this
how do you extract sps from a character and sell them or inject them into another one with the current features? |
Jared Khanar
21
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Posted - 2015.10.18 14:10:40 -
[32] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Why dont you answer the ******* question instead of dodging it i haven't dodged anything. we already know the purpose of the character bazaar is to buy and sell SP. now, you can either carry on pretending i'm avoiding a question that we answered multiple times already or you can start contributing to the discussion. i don't really care which you do.
The purpose of the character bazaar is not to buy and sell sp - it-¦s purpose is to buy and sell characters - you cannot craft a second character using a bought one - this is just ... stupid - srry to say that - no personal offence intended - maybe it will be a good thing to recap or rethink your logic and it-¦s fundamentals |
Jared Khanar
21
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Posted - 2015.10.18 14:15:28 -
[33] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:
i just did.
you are comparing apples with cars telling people they are the same - happy driving in your apple btw |
Jared Khanar
22
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Posted - 2015.10.18 14:19:25 -
[34] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Jared Khanar wrote:Dave Stark wrote:
i just did.
you are comparing apples with cars telling people they are the same - happy driving in your apple btw uh, i haven't mentioned apples or cars.
Well it was a pleasure to talk with you, my good troll - best wishes for you on your future way in eve. Sadly i have to stop reading your posts and responding to them now as i realise this is only resulting in a waste of time. Sadly i feel like you are going to push this further so a few pages ahead all these people reading in here and thinking about this must use their own brains to notice the illogical flaws and arguments :) but i have faith in them
o/
hmmm pizza :D |
Jared Khanar
24
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Posted - 2015.10.18 15:00:27 -
[35] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote: Got me thinking: if CCP keeps the extractor PLEX-equivalent price (in AUR) lower than the expected PLEX-equivalent price of the 500,000 SP, this whole thing will probably INCREASE PLEX supply, which is pretty cool!
this only applies if the one-¦s milking their characters for sellable sp do this via buying aurum instead of buying plex from the market to do so. if not because they have the needed isk to supply this - and because spending isk can be valued less than spending rl currency - only plex are incoming from players without isk, to get it and buy sp packages. now pretend wich group consumes / injects more plex. Also don-¦t forget speculators. |
Jared Khanar
25
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Posted - 2015.10.18 15:10:46 -
[36] - Quote
Delegate wrote:
My personal take on this proposal is that CCP find itself increasingly out of options to maintain the revenue stream. I personally would prefer paying higher sub price, than witnessing this SP market go online.
WOD, Dust, Gunjack, Valkyrie - who do you think pays for these developments? If you extract massive amounts of capital from the project that earns you this - what is going to happen if not enough is left to satisfy these customers or if you need more because you wastet these investments, canceling projects? Do a simple math what ccp has to pay for eve fanfest or vegas and think about what could have happend to this game if all this money and devtime had been used from the beginning to primarily develop eve instead?
Still wating on them to keep their promises from 2011: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZ0k0ioROUo
That-¦s a timeframe others develop complete and complex AAA games |
Jared Khanar
34
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Posted - 2015.10.19 07:57:22 -
[37] - Quote
CCP Terminus wrote: The feature is intended to allow players to trade resources. Whether that's real-world currency, ISK, or time. It is the same philosophy behind PLEX, and why PLEX is both effective and sustainable over long periods. We don't create a way for players to buy their way to victory. We aren't injecting new SP in to the game. We simply allow players to trade the resources they have for the resources they want.
So we should see sp as a collectable, tradeable ressource now. I understand. But why connecting this to a (multiple) rl cash flow to ccp? If it-¦s only about enabling possibilities this is not needed - all sp trading and extracting could be done via isk only!
let-¦s look at possible tradeshemes:
player extracts sp via aurum (irrelevant if bought via rl money or plex) <-> player buys sp via ingame aquired isk | ccp earns money / can change "debt" into "wealth" <-> ccp earns no money
player extracts sp via aurum (...) <-> player buys sp via plex from ingame market | ccp earns money / can change "debt" into wealth" <-> ccp can change "debt" into "wealth"
player extracts sp via aurum (...) <-> player buys sp via rl currency | ccp earns money / can change "debt" into "wealth" <-> ccp earns money
from three possible shemes i can think of right now, there are two ccp earns money on BOTH sides of the trade !? wtf !? am i wrong? how should we feel about that? isn-¦t this a clear and obvious indicator of what is intended to be achived with this? |
Jared Khanar
34
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Posted - 2015.10.19 08:05:40 -
[38] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Syn'Drakkahr wrote:CCP: C.) You do not, can not, buy Skill Extractors on the market and can only purchase through Aurum. (Profit for CCP) *Obviously open to debate, just thinking of CCP gains as a company.
You are quite wrong. Citate from dev blogQuote:Both Transneural Skill Extractors and Transneural Skill Packets can be freely traded on the market for ISK
Where are this extractors coming from before you trade them on the market? How do you build SP packets if not with these extractors? |
Jared Khanar
34
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Posted - 2015.10.19 09:18:33 -
[39] - Quote
@ CCP Terminus
As you showed us you are reading in here - please don-¦t forget my questions to you i posted some time ago: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6110431#post6110431
You are also welcome to send me a pm if you don-¦t wan-¦t to talk about this in public. |
Jared Khanar
36
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Posted - 2015.10.19 11:16:16 -
[40] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote: Of course some people will definitely quit over this. The only question would is how many. You seem to be ignorant or in denial of the opinion in this thread, CCP don't have that same luxury though.
Infact CCP has the luxury to do so - still waiting on your response CCP Terminus ^^
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6110431#post6110431 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6110534#post6110534
3 accs running out and only returning if this mess gets stopped - maybe others unsubbing, like to share here, too Ofcourse it-¦s not a bad thing and i have no hatred in this. if ccp likes to follow this road further (as they did in the past) - the one-¦s liking this will stay and pay - the one-¦s don-¦t will leave. Others waiting for features like this may come and leave again. (someone who has observed the behaviour of f2p communities may know what i mean, although the effects might not be that strong in eve, as its features, supporting this, are a bit more hidden under the ground than elsewhere) It-¦s simply a shift in the community (or a something one can call a recreation - which fits well as eve gets recreated and reconfigured, too). Nothing to be sad about. |
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Jared Khanar
38
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Posted - 2015.10.19 12:19:52 -
[41] - Quote
Jeremiah Saken wrote:Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote: It's me the only tired of seeing how the thread has devolved into 50% of Dave Stark vs the Universe?
What a troll. Evil
Rest of them don't have active subs so they spamming on reddit.
there are also a lot of voices on reddit AGAINST this - telling people here reddit folks are clearly for this feature is simply not true |
Jared Khanar
39
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Posted - 2015.10.19 13:02:22 -
[42] - Quote
Maekchu wrote: I would totally agree with you, if the feature was only attainable with IRL money. However, since it is not. This is very similar to a Plex, but instead of ISK you exchange SP. If you are against this idea, you should equally be against Plex, because both gives you the option to progress faster by buying an items with IRL money. However, with how EvE works both more ISK and more SP does not really matter, since you cannot "win" EvE based on these two factors alone.
It is only available with rl money as the extractors are bought via aurum
as i postet some pages ago:
player extracting sp - money to ccp <-> player buying sp via isk - no money to ccp player extracting sp - money to ccp <-> player buying sp via rl money (plex) - money to ccp
two options - one of them pays ccp on BOTH sides
it doesn-¦t matter if you pay directly with rl money or plex - either way ccp gets money |
Jared Khanar
39
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Posted - 2015.10.19 13:05:58 -
[43] - Quote
Maekchu wrote: You can exchange a Plex for AUR (3500 AUR to be specific). Meaning, this can still be attained with in-game currency only.
and the plex doesn-¦t mean money for ccp? |
Jared Khanar
39
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Posted - 2015.10.19 13:11:21 -
[44] - Quote
Maekchu wrote: That really has nothing to do with anything.
Sadly this is very important. |
Jared Khanar
39
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Posted - 2015.10.19 13:13:35 -
[45] - Quote
Rawthorm wrote:Jared Khanar wrote:Maekchu wrote: You can exchange a Plex for AUR (3500 AUR to be specific). Meaning, this can still be attained with in-game currency only.
and the plex doesn-¦t mean money for ccp? try to view this from the company side How is this even a factor? Why is it seemingly a bad thing that CCP make any money? A well fed CCP can only further development of this game which we are all so passionate about.
If the fact that ccp is charging money not only for a transaction itself but also buyer and seller seperatly in a subscription based game is ok for you - well it is ... ok for you. Nothing to say furthermore if you want to be threated like that :) |
Jared Khanar
39
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Posted - 2015.10.19 13:17:28 -
[46] - Quote
Maekchu wrote: And both transactions can be payed with in-game currency.
They are basically making a Plex for SP. Again, if you are against this idea, you should equally be against Plex rioting on the forums day in and day out.
Even if this is possible the underlying rl money flow can-¦t be denied. Plex is only payed one time for example. so you can-¦t compare this feature directly to plex - else the plexbuyer has to pay as it gets bought from ccp - and the buyer has to pay rl money additionaly if it gets bought from the market.
EDIT: also this sp trade is easily exploitable by ccp - plex not |
Jared Khanar
39
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Posted - 2015.10.19 13:24:13 -
[47] - Quote
Maekchu wrote: A mechanic that promotes AFK playstyle, where you just spin ships and wait for skills to train is bad. The uniqueness in EvE is its sandbox elements and the interaction between players. This is what should be promoted and I think this feature does that, since it gives people the option to more rapidly get out and do what they enjoy. Meaning more people in space.
Also - if you can interfere more and more with rl money - how can you call this a sandbox anymore if you are able to change the rules? maybe we should redefine it as rl-money-sandbox then !? |
Jared Khanar
40
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Posted - 2015.10.19 13:28:26 -
[48] - Quote
Rawthorm wrote: As for everyone else, it's none of your business if they want to spend RL money on it or not.
So it sums up in shut up and leave if your opinion is against this - i can assure you it-¦s not my business what anyone likes to do with his / her money.
Personally i want to avoid games that only want money for everything you do. Thats one of the primary things that attracted me to eve. As this is changed now more and more i-¦m leaving. As already mentioned my subs are running out in a few days and ... bye.
But that doesn-¦t mean i have to remain silent until this :) |
Jared Khanar
40
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Posted - 2015.10.19 13:34:00 -
[49] - Quote
Maekchu wrote: The following Transneural Skill Packet can only be sold for ISK or traded. Whether people will finance this isk with a Plex has nothing to do with it.
Again - view this from the companys side. If it-¦s only about enabling a good, needed feature it could be made tradeable only via the market - but it is not. there are a lot of revenue decission involved in this design ... |
Jared Khanar
40
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Posted - 2015.10.19 13:37:30 -
[50] - Quote
Maekchu wrote: Please elaborate in detail, how you are somehow able to change the rules based on this feature?
And the rules are still there, but people will be given the option to boost themselves past some skills they needs, instead of just keeping the game subbed and not play for a month.
What is better? Giving people the option to get faster into (for example, Frigate PvP) resulting in more combat in FW? Or a system, where you are maybe a month away from what you want to do skill-wise. So instead of playing the game for a month, you just keep it subbed and offline train.
The rules are still the same for all players. People are just given an option to skip some of the mundane skill training, in favor of more activity in space.
don-¦t think in good or bad - boosting as you call it is a modification of a mechanic / rule / effect / state / whatever from one form to another - a change ... just understand the word in it-¦s meaning without projecting emotions into it.
Thanks :) |
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Jared Khanar
40
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Posted - 2015.10.19 13:42:59 -
[51] - Quote
Rawthorm wrote:Jared Khanar wrote:Rawthorm wrote: As for everyone else, it's none of your business if they want to spend RL money on it or not.
So it sums up in shut up and leave if your opinion is against this - i can assure you it-¦s not my business what anyone likes to do with his / her money. Personally i want to avoid games that only want money for everything you do. Thats one of the primary things that attracted me to eve. As this is changed now more and more i-¦m leaving. As already mentioned my subs are running out in a few days and ... bye. But that doesn-¦t mean i have to remain silent until this :) Again, your not forced to pay RL money to use this feature. Why does it matter if someone else chooses to? The end result is the same. His SP boost isn't bigger just because he used his credit card and you used your ISK.
again - yes this is true. you are able to do so.
but will this be the norm? I guess not. What if new players want to use this - as stated this is aimed at them. do they have a good iskincome to support this? what are they going to do? and if this is only a feature to support the playerbase - why additional moneycosts? i have no problem in someone bossting himself - i have a problem with the shown "we are going to milk you even further" attitude.
CCP has already monetized eve with a monthly subscription - then added plex as a second - then added aurum as a third - and now features are coming to generate pressure to use them all. which one is paying the bill doesn-¦t matter for me |
Jared Khanar
40
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Posted - 2015.10.19 13:47:42 -
[52] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Jared Khanar wrote: as stated this is aimed at them. we went through this multiple times. this feature is aimed at everyone. it says so in the devblog.
so with the dimishing returns it is even aimed at 150m sp chars in the same way without a difference? lol |
Jared Khanar
40
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Posted - 2015.10.19 13:51:18 -
[53] - Quote
Maekchu wrote: Nothing is being modified to the rules. You get the option to more rapidly gain SP, but the rules of the game are the same. Instead of just subbing for a month and stay docked, I get an option to just buy an item and not afk train that queue.
I don't understand why you say I project emotion. I simply told you the rules are not modified. If someone could buy a permit to not get concorded in HS for real money, that would be changing the rules with a P2W mechanic. But not this.
well it depends how one use words i guess.
If i say the rule is a character gains sp through time in a specific amount - so after 1 year he maybe got 20m sp for example and through additional payment i can end up with 50m instead or more - i am able to call that a modification - as rl money gets transfered in this process it is possible to call that a modification through the use of rl money - if you do not - ok
if i-¦m using the wrong words to describe this - please teach me better ones - english is not my native language ;) but i-¦m sure you are able to understand the meaning...
edit: have to leave now so further answers may take a while ^^ |
Jared Khanar
42
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Posted - 2015.10.19 16:02:10 -
[54] - Quote
Lets talk also about the social effects this feature could have, instead of focusing on payment and the pure mechanic. If it has been mentioned before - well heres another one repeating it :)
The Training Queue is in fact the most beautiful and elegant feature in eve. All these "problems" people are complaining about are imo. the needed core of this game.
Not beeing able to skill everything you want in a short time forces players to whisely specialize their characters and forces them to work together. Maybe i need someone who processes my ore, hauls my assets, produces my ships and so on.
The introduction of alts and multicharactertraining enabled players to refuse cooperation. Why should i work together with someone else, dividing the income, if it-¦s simply possible to train an alt that does exactly what i need, instead of this other person. (High Plex prices are only further adding to this - it-¦s simply not economical to do so, depending on where you live in the universe.) Also the character bazaar has added to this. ofcourse there is a cap in the amount of alts one is able to sub, the offered chars on the bazaar, it softens this problem a bit.
if we are allowed to buy sp, create alts in the specific way we need them within a few clicks, this problem will potentially only increase. The imo skyrocketing plex after introduction will also add to this.
I have the feeling that the calls for sp transfers have it-¦s root in the selfish greed for more, not to be dependend on others, not beeing forced to cooperate with others that can do something oneself doesn-¦t.
Isn-¦t it so that players, socialising with others are most likely to stay, while others, playing S.ingle P.layer O.nline are more likely to quit?
Isn-¦t this furthermore forcing eve to become more the game of alts than it is now?
And if theres a (high) chance that something like this is happening - why is ccp introducing it, although they tell us that the opposite is needed for a healthy game: cooperating players? |
Jared Khanar
47
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Posted - 2015.10.19 21:59:47 -
[55] - Quote
some last words before leaving here:
Scipio Artelius hit the point.
CCP.
Change is good - especially changing mechanics overall received as problematic. but don-¦t turn solutions to bad gamedesign into additional financial income. That gives a very bad taste - either pay or live with it. Many, many bad companies act like this. Don-¦t get another one of those. You can do better than that.
o7
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Jared Khanar
50
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Posted - 2015.10.21 16:36:09 -
[56] - Quote
Dror wrote: Why have a progression mechanic at all? It's a sandbox game! Like, are you literally implying that keeping subs from playing the game is helpful?
I know. Wrote i-¦m out of here, but i can-¦t help myself :)
Ok, let-¦s strip sp progression from the game. What-¦s left then? Eve is a calculation based game. Look at the current way it get-¦s played. Drop more people / alts, doctrine fits, a.s.o. If we are able to fly anything with any possible fitting and all players have identical values @ dps, hp, ecm and whatsoever what does this mean for our gameplay if the mechanics are the same as they are now? There are... some people complaining about the boring mechanics, they won-¦t change. And eve players try to do the things they do, the most efficient way.
Isn-¦t it possible that the diversity of activly used ingame activities get-¦s reduced due to this?For example: If everyone can produce everything like all others. This would be the death for the ingame economy. Whom would you sell your products, how are you going to make isk instead of fw? who would be your customer? At some point - why buy plex with rl money and sell it to the market?
Imo eves ingame economy , the markets, the professions, the specialisations... everything needs to be as fractured as possible. Without the need to specialise, without the pressure to develop into a specific playstyle / isk-grind, without the inaccessibility between the specialisations because of time and / or sp ... the transfer of assets, isk, services will be hit hard - partially it will be less and less necessary.
This leads me to the conclussion that competition in the remaining, profitable areas will increase. Increasing competition - say bye bye to your profits :D
Imo. this is already the case in slighter form right now, but even allowing sp transfers will only strengthen this effect. We allready have oversupply for years now.
EDIT: I-¦m not against deleting or changing sp mechanics - but the question is: "does this make sense?" |
Jared Khanar
50
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Posted - 2015.10.21 18:01:31 -
[57] - Quote
Dror wrote:The example about MOBAs is relevant here. Established motivation science lists competence (mastery), relatedness (competitiveness and socialization), and autonomy (freedom of choice and depth) as principal. A sandbox game supports these really well. Apparently, the level of skillfulness that a game supports is less relevant than the option of being the best -- it's great competing over roles and "top scores". So, it's on SP to prove itself, and there's no obvious way it can. The game relies on very non-PvP methods of making ISK (for countering exploitation), so the idea that PvP should somehow sustain gameplay interest is unfeasible. Thus, limiting the other playstyles (as a design philosophy) is completely counter-productive. What's neat about "a sandbox" and "emergent gameplay" is that if a niche is saturated, there are plenty more -- if a station is full, there are lots for filling and flipping. More stocked stations is less travel between refitting. There are demographics of interest, so unless it seems plausible that every character would just farm, then there's enough demand from all that are uninterested in industry and the inactive playstyle of mining. Just logging on and getting some action (or exploring) is a trend that's criticized as shallow, but it's great for business (and a lot of demographics enjoy it).
Good point - jump into the ship - have fun. Markets would adapt - supply and demand gets an overhaul. Although eve needs more modification to support this on the long run. Are the pvp mechanics enough to attract them for years to come? Atm they would also rely heavily on plex to fund their assets / or get integrated in a big corp / alliance. Additional costs if the possibility to "work around" the sp system is isk / aurum based. A complete sp system overhaul might then be the better way to go. The connection of the abillity to play in a specific manner to extra income, remains still as problematic in my eyes. |
Jared Khanar
50
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Posted - 2015.10.22 14:45:41 -
[58] - Quote
a question aside ... are there other aspects in the game in which microtransactions could be integrated in a way everyone is happy with? A way that motivates us to establish additional cash flows to ccp?
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Jared Khanar
50
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Posted - 2015.10.22 15:00:47 -
[59] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote: Anything is possible as long as its not made as a tradeable item,Once it enters the public domain its hoarded, price jacked you name it. As long as CCP aims it at an account its outside the realms of it being abused.
doubt they would have the same effect regarding instant revenue like sp trading. personally for example: skins don-¦t matter. what can provide a comparable effect without damaging (or doing something perceived as damage to) the ingame-experience?
EDIT: with comparable "low" investments necessary to develop and integrate |
Jared Khanar
53
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Posted - 2015.10.24 18:15:00 -
[60] - Quote
https://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/accord-reached-at-ccps-special-summit/
Quote: It is CCPGÇÿs plan that the Noble Exchange (NeX store) will be used for the sale of vanity items only. There are no plans, and have been no plans, as per previous communication and CSM meetings, to introduce the sale of game breaking items or enhancements in the NeX store.
The investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time. The CSM, under NDA, has been presented with CCPGÇÿs plans for continued evolution of the business model and agrees that nothing they saw breaks this principle. CCP has committed to sharing their plans with the CSM on this front on an ongoing basis.
[...]
Game-affecting Virtual Goods: We are convinced that CCP has no plans to introduce any game-affecting virtual goods, only pure vanity items such as clothing and ship skins. We have been repeatedly assured that there are no plans for GÇÿgold ammo', ships which have different statistics from existing common hulls, or any other feared GÇÿgame destroying' virtual goods or services. We have expressed our deep concern about potential grey areas that the introduction of virtual goods permits, and CCP has made a commitment to discuss any proposals that might fall into these grey areas in detail with CSM at the earliest possible stage.
http://www.gamewatcher.com/news/2011-04-07-eve-online-to-sell-vanity-items-only-as-micro-transactions
Quote: "It is CCP's plan that the Noble Exchange (NeX store) will be used for the sale of vanity items only," said senior producer Arnar Hrafyn Gylfason. CCP and the CSM put together an emergency summit to deal with the mob.
"There are no plans, and have been no plans, as per previous communication and CSM meetings, to introduce the sale of game breaking items or enhancements in the NeX store," continued Gylfason.
"The investment of money in Eve should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time. The CSM, under NDA, has been presented with CCP's plans for continued evolution of the business model and agrees that nothing they saw breaks this principle. CCP has committed to sharing their plans with the CSM on this front on an ongoing basis." Lack of communication to players was the problem, say CSM and CCP.
[...]
"We are convinced that CCP has no plans to introduce any game-affecting virtual goods, only pure vanity items such as clothing and ship skins," continued Gianturco.
[...]
"We have expressed our deep concern about potential grey areas that the introduction of virtual goods permits, and CCP has made a commitment to discuss any proposals that might fall into these grey areas in detail with CSM at the earliest possible stage."
Please don-¦t introduce items, that have the potential to alter the gameplay experience, in the EVE Store. If you feel an existing feature or mechanic needs to be changed in order to provide a fun gameplay to your customers, please do not "solve" this problem with a solution that requires additional payment. But ofcourse you are welcome to treat the symptoms or solve the underlying problem.
If you choose to follow this road, please consider telling us, if future "solutions" for whatever will be implemented the same way, too. |
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Jared Khanar
56
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Posted - 2015.10.24 19:58:42 -
[61] - Quote
Quote: CCP Terminus wrote:
On a somewhat related note, to keep some prestige without a hard cap, there may be a way to track SP gained 'naturally' versus SP gained from using unallocated skillpoints. If that's the case we could make both values available when characters apply to corporations, or people put their characters up on sites like eveboard. No promises though, it's still to early to tell.
This is like marking them with a barcode on the forehead, because they choose to ... progress in a specific way |
Jared Khanar
59
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Posted - 2015.10.25 08:37:39 -
[62] - Quote
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZSCaswtcsA
The eve vegas 2015 keynote. A lot of informations about citadels and how they will be used, fitted, etc. (7:35 - 21:54) I-¦m waiting for the moment new skills to operate this structures and their new introduced modules may get announced. Sadly i nioticed no informations on skills in the keynote. But some time ago a devblog stated "we will introduce new modules because we don-¦t want to mess with the modules for ships" or something like that, if i remember right. in this contect it would also make sense to introduce new skills.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPbMwne4X1Q
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIms0J9-qSY
really good changes that may drag a lot of players into the game eve rts +1
well, if there will be new skills for all this, noone will be able to use the content immediately, so the sp trading proposal tries to provide something absolutly necessary - and cash in on that.
A a lot of bigger alliances may need to rearange the skills of their alts. Or create new one-¦s as there will be no characters skilled as needed in the character bazaar. :)
Capitals may also become a "big thing" again. New players entering eve because of this would have to wait a long time until they would be able to play what they came for.
All these consequences for demand, supply and the motivation to spend cash for gameplay... :)
*waiting for the next devblogs* |
Jared Khanar
61
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Posted - 2015.10.31 23:38:19 -
[63] - Quote
General Lootit wrote: My bad. My point is those who paying with rl cash also make effort to earn money. It's beneficial for CCP and players who buying PLEX with isk because they cannot or will not to do it with rl money.
You cannot prefer one over the other! From an ingame point of view this is some kind of symbiotic thing if balanced right. Those who pay rl cash to buy what they need ingame, are transfering the burden to grind to the players with time. "Crossing a line" unevenly distributes fun and boredom / frustration between the two. You have to treat them equally - else you risk to drive one side away from your game. And the other will follow!
Yes, without the rich there are no plex for poor players Yes, without the poor players there are no ships, whatever for the rich and also much less content to *pew*...
You need each other, don-¦t you understand? It-¦s in both sides interest to maintain the perception that it does absolutly not matter how you fund your accounts / assets - that the ingame possibilities are equal!
Our manipulated, high plex prices shout: pay less vs. grind more (a self-accelerating downward spiral) SP trading proposal adds: pay a bit more vs. grind more
Please, do not add items into the eve store that affects gameplay. Please, only sell vanity items in the eve store. Please, do not connect the possibility to skip parts of the gameplay experience to additional income. (It-¦s like telling: Ok, we know this is bad, but it stays. just pay and you don-¦t have to deal with it.) Please, do not connect fixes for problems or symptoms to additional income. |
Jared Khanar
62
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Posted - 2015.11.01 00:19:03 -
[64] - Quote
Daniela Doran wrote: You're wasting your time trying to debate with that teenage troll.
Have fun with the trolls. We may distract them by starting a discussion like: If a player "pays" his accounts by plexing / grinding for it - isn-¦t it possible that he / she is also a hardworking person with as little time to play as the rich ones? What does this mean for the argument - these have time - the others have money?
Or something like: In a world in which the gap between rich and poor is widening everyday, where there are fewer and fewer riches and more and more poor, does it make sense to choose the minority as a target group?
Where-¦s my beer!? |
Jared Khanar
64
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Posted - 2015.11.01 10:22:26 -
[65] - Quote
Leonardo Adami wrote:Jared Khanar wrote:General Lootit wrote: My bad. My point is those who paying with rl cash also make effort to earn money. It's beneficial for CCP and players who buying PLEX with isk because they cannot or will not to do it with rl money.
You cannot prefer one over the other! From an ingame point of view this is some kind of symbiotic thing if balanced right. Those who pay rl cash to buy what they need ingame, are transfering the burden to grind to the players with time. "Crossing a line" unevenly distributes fun and boredom / frustration between the two. You have to treat them equally - else you risk to drive one side away from your game. And the other will follow! [... blah...] What a waste of a post. People having more skill points or redistributing their current skill points doesn't affect anything in game at all. Does it not sit well with people like yourself holding on to an archaic and antiquated system, probably not. But it's not game ending or breaking like all the eve drama queens would like people to believe.
Ah, what a waste of a post I-¦m not against changing the sp system. I-¦m against something else... Please train up your brain ;) |
Jared Khanar
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Posted - 2015.11.01 21:39:01 -
[66] - Quote
Reading a bit through the capital change devblog I found something I am waiting for since this SP trading announcement ... arrived. Sadly I have overlooked it until now
https://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/reworking-capital-ships-and-thus-it-begins/
Quote: All existing capital sized modules will be getting a full set of Meta, Tech 2, and Faction variants. Yes, this includes Tech 2 guns (and the skills for them). We're also introducing a bunch of new modules
Player: We want to use the new, reworked capitals ccp: not with your current skills, bro player: what are we gonna do now? wait? fu ccp: guess what ... we have an idea... |
Jared Khanar
69
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Posted - 2015.11.01 22:20:32 -
[67] - Quote
Sgt Ocker wrote: You really think older players are going to waste billions of isk adding 50k SP at a time to 3mil Sp skills? Roughly 30 bil isk per skill - Yeah that sounds right - CCP is balancing capitals for only the richest and largest groups to use. They can afford it.
Very clever CCP - very clever indeed..
All I want is for CCP to refund all the capital skills I have wasted time training. No point selling them - The isk would have gone towards another capital - Which I will no longer be able to use.
Hope I understood you right:
Hm don-¦t know. If you are in war every benefit may be essential. From my point of view: if it means i have to burn 90% of my investments to get the advantage i need - why not? It-¦s not about saving values - value does never matter - it-¦s about domination. And if an alliance is able to utilize the reworked capitals and the new modules / guns / whatever much faster than it-¦s opponents... ^^
Though I don-¦t know how many SPs are needed to skill into the new capital / gun skills, how many skills will come, a.s.o. atm. |
Jared Khanar
70
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Posted - 2015.11.02 13:19:56 -
[68] - Quote
Has been mentioned here before:
- remove skill prequesites disabling you to use something entirely - rework the skill system a bit so higher skills gives "only" bonuses - everyone could do everything he / she likes more or less efficient depending on the skills
everyone would be able to take a closer look at what they want to play and skill directly into it to get better
no need for charging rl money to allow a faster progression
less devtime and moneyinvestment necessary from ccp to solve skillsystem issues? problem solved?
or is the only way to solve this the implementation of an additional payment in the subscription based game eve is? |
Jared Khanar
71
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Posted - 2015.11.02 13:51:27 -
[69] - Quote
General Lootit wrote: I doubt that ships will be able to execute their purpose without training in system which you described. And you make CCP feel sad.
I hope so :) |
Jared Khanar
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Posted - 2015.11.02 14:35:19 -
[70] - Quote
ArmyOfMe wrote:Nope, ready to go for the new mods already And its not like players cant start training for the t2 mods already if they botherd to. no need to buy sp to do that.
Well ok, if the skills are already ingame and can be skilled i-¦m a bit misguided then and need to rethink a bit. The devblog stating:
Quote: All existing capital sized modules will be getting a full set of Meta, Tech 2, and Faction variants. Yes, this includes Tech 2 guns (and the skills for them). We're also introducing a bunch of new modules
lead me to assumption that new skills will be introduced into the game...
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Jared Khanar
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Posted - 2015.11.02 15:12:42 -
[71] - Quote
ArmyOfMe wrote: Well, im just guessing here, but i figure the skill reqs for t2 capital guns will be the same as for any other size t2 gun, as in lvl 5 capital turret, and maxed out gunnery support skills for the capitals. Pretty much the same as i expect t2 xl remote reps to require lvl 5 capital remote reps trained.
Devblog says there will be new Meta, t2, faction modules AND skills for them. Doesn-¦t this mean that these new modules and skills are not ingame already?
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Jared Khanar
71
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Posted - 2015.11.02 16:35:28 -
[72] - Quote
ArmyOfMe wrote: Well, when it comes to new skills im guessing they are talking about x-large gun spec skills, which are indeed not ingame yet, and wont be until the weapons are released. Faction and meta modules dont usually require any new skills, and i sincerly doubt they will require it for the capital versions either.
Ok, no reliable information released, yet. people posting about skills in the cap change thread are writing about the skills unneccessary thanks to
- no more drones on caps - no more effective logi / triage on caps expect the new aux caps - new skills lvl 5 for new guns?
but also
- fighters / bombers will be rearranged into light / med / heavy squads - new skills like light / med / heavy drones? the current two fighter / fighterbomber skills make sense anymore? (no info available) - new aux caps use exitent racial ship skills? (no info available)
Yes, thx... I guess it-¦s better to be silent on this until more information is released. Maybe a ccp dev or someone who definetly knows about the details likes to respond on the question of possible new skills regarding the cap and citadel changes here?
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Jared Khanar
71
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Posted - 2015.11.03 14:32:50 -
[73] - Quote
Levi Belvar wrote:As far as i'm concerned over all this now, where is anything prestigious when the entire game is to be monetized. I have noticed that they have removed the 5 to 15 mill skill point bracket which offered 450k return, which gives the now 5 to 50 million skill point bracket for a minimal loss the chance to reskill to what ever they want as long as they're willing to pay. So where does the "We want to make sure training decisions are still very important and that rapid respeccing of skills is not an efficient choice at any point" come into play apart from if you are one of the unlucky ones who have been loyal to the game, Your reward is to get 50k .... Thats more like a 2 fingered salute than anything to do with prestige.
Helmar's let his pet Seagull fly high, Rise into the clouds and take one giant turd on anyone that's been in this game longer than a few years !!!!
Good luck in your future premium / freemium plus endeavours.
CCP Fozzie, Seagull, whoever...
Even if it-¦s easy to blame one person for everything (I do so myself too often)... don-¦t. If someone works for a company he / she "sits between the chairs" in some way. There-¦s always someone above you, giving orders.
It's odd, but it seems a lot of online gaming companies have goals for their "live" as a legal entity, that are conflicting with the expectations of the consumers of their products. Or at least the way they are trying to reach these goals offer a great potential for trouble.
Whether they realize at some point that this can be handled differently?
Anyway... for the employee: someone has to pay your bills.
Doubt this is the creative work and decision from a single, isolated person. Certainly this is ccp ceo + management approved and instructed.
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Jared Khanar
73
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Posted - 2015.11.05 22:12:40 -
[74] - Quote
Quote: My main is at 79m sp right now. I have invested every sp into specialising this character for the gameplay I have choosen, when I joined eve. But it-¦s boring after all and I-¦d like to experience new areas of the game. I have used SP Transfers to be able to compete with all these vets, but my character has no single sp in skills, that support my new adventures. I will never be able to catch up to all those, active in these areas of the game.
SP trading has been introduced to enable us to compete, so seriously CCP; please remove dimishing returns. They are meaningless and only a artificially barrier in character progression.
It-¦s only forcing us to sub additional accounts for different, specialised characters. It-¦s not good for the new player retention if everyone thinks they must sub xyz accounts play this game.
There-¦s not even a character in the bazaar as I would need one. Let us make use of this way to progress, as it is intended!
This would make no difference after all for the game itself! Would throw loads of money at you, also.
Coming soon... maybe
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Jared Khanar
73
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Posted - 2015.11.14 13:58:44 -
[75] - Quote
Dear CCP,
nearly a month has passed now since you started the exploration of "the character bazaar and skill trading". Feedback has been gathered, enough voices have spoken.
What have you decided to do? It-¦s about time you start to tell us!
o7
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Jared Khanar
78
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Posted - 2015.11.15 09:28:57 -
[76] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Tau Phoenix wrote: Skillpoint for Cash = Pay to Win ... CCP : The real currency in Eve is time. Time is what makes Skillpoints, time is what makes isk, time is our investment. Please don't ruin this game by devalueing our investment.
Wait 2 win. I prefer Do something to win.
Yep... doing something to > wait to > pay something to ... get a fun gameplay
Let-¦s skip the features designed for the pay and waiting part and head to / develop the good things instead. All of us are already paying to do / play ;)
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Jared Khanar
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Posted - 2015.11.17 10:34:45 -
[77] - Quote
Hm just as a question for opinions:
If this really should be perceived only as an enhancement to the character bazaar:
- CB allows you to pay for the transfer of a character with unlimited amounts of sp contained - transfer fee is the same if there are 1m or 200m on the character. - ST allows you to pay for the transfer of a limited amount of sp + destroying some of these upon injection
If this is designed as an alternative shouldn-¦t it allow also "unlimited" amounts of sp trades without destruction per payed fee? (The same principle cb follows?)
Isn-¦t the only big difference between cb and sp trading the fact, that this only allows ccp to charge rl money for the transfered amount of sps now, too?
Is this really only an enhancement of trading abilities for the players without the attempt to additionally cash in on something "new"?
Does this new, second rl payment for specific amounts of sp vanish because players are able to trade them on the market after ccp has obtained money?
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