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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 8 post(s) |
Portmanteau
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Posted - 2015.10.15 22:50:13 -
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Winter of waaaaaaaaaaaggggggeeeeeew incoming ! |
Portmanteau
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Posted - 2015.10.16 00:08:53 -
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This is worse than thousand dollar jeans. CCP |
Portmanteau
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Posted - 2015.10.16 05:40:30 -
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Synthiosis wrote:
In conclussion,
Is that when you have a eureka moment when someone clobbers you over the head with a brick ?
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Portmanteau
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Posted - 2015.10.16 11:23:22 -
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Don ZOLA wrote:Divine Entervention wrote:This gives new players an actual reason, an actual object to strive for to further their progression.
They can subscribe, then go farm isk for the purpose of using it to buy skill points to level their characters faster.
Instead of subscribe and wait for a year, they can subscribe and play a ****-ton of EvE being out in the game actively playing, using their activity to acquire an actual benefit. Using the actual desirable reward of leveling their character as incentive to want to spend more time actively pursuing it.
Sure, just as it's possible to purchase a subscription with dollars, it's also possible to purchase a subscription with isk. This adds another benefit to the new player, something he wants.
No it does not. They will have to spend isk (which they dont have as they are new, so cash) to get in the game. How many people are going to do so. Your subscription is 15 bucks per month, but you should invest 50-100 bucks to get better start. If you think that is going to get people attracted or keep them in the game, you are wrong.
Exactly. Where now some newbros look at vets enviously and perhaps wish they could train a bit faster, now they will look at other newbros with lots or RL cash and wish they could buy skillpoints, if they don't have access to this they will likey say..."what's the f***ing point" and quit. There are better ways of bring newbros into the game more quickly (which CCP are doing with new char skillpoints, cerebral accelerators and could continue to do buy removing learning implants and adding those points to attributes permanently). Buying SPs will just setup another have/havenot divide amongst new players ... they won't all be able to afford it. Add to that a lot of the supply will get hoovered up by existing mega rich players and powerblocks anyway.
It is a huge huge mistake on par with, if not worse than summerof rage/monoclegate/$1000jeans |
Portmanteau
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Posted - 2015.10.16 11:41:14 -
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Josef Djugashvilis wrote:This idea seems to me to be more about CCP needing money (less folk logging on - see Eve-offline.net) than 'improving' the game.
They should just pass a tin-foil hat around and ask the players to donate some money as thay see fit.
Of course, CCP could just introduce and improve gameplay to both keep old players and attract new ones.
Sometimes, the obvious course is actually the best course of action.
It really does seem that monetization never really left the ideas table since summer of rage and they've been waiting for a way to shoehorn it back in. It may be a slippery slope argument, but I fear what they suggest next if they manage to get skillpoints for cash through the door.
If they really wanted to make they game more quickly accessible to new guys there are so many more things they could do.
Increase new char SPs even further (a million say) Remove learning implants, add points to attributes. Lower skill point requirements or adjust training time multipliers on various non "end game" skills (with appropriate reimbursements)
these would be accessible to all, not just cash rich players... but I suspect this is about CCP getting paid and getting paid quick.
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Portmanteau
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Posted - 2015.10.16 11:49:12 -
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roberts dragon wrote:with all this passion think a few buckets of cold water is in order
With CCP so obviously high, a spell in rehab is in order
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Portmanteau
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Posted - 2015.10.16 11:52:35 -
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Dave Stark wrote:Portmanteau wrote:I fear what they suggest next if they manage to get skillpoints for cash through the door.
that's literally how your subscription works. also; if we were just creating SP out of thin air - do you really think people would be defending it? i don't. besides, this idea does the direct opposite, SP vanishes in to the void with this idea.
I have zero issues with making SPs easier to come by for new guys, but make it accessible to all not just cash rich older players and credit card happy new guys. All this will do (since supply will be limited and expensive) will setup another divide/barrier of entry between rich new guys and poor new guys where it just used to be young player vs old players. There are so many better ways of getting *all* new players into the game quicker... this isn't one of them.
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Portmanteau
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Posted - 2015.10.16 15:44:53 -
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Dave Stark wrote:Moac Tor wrote:Logical deduction will tell you that this will clearly be affordable if this is meant to be designed to help new players. except that nowhere in the devblog, does it state that. not a single place. there is ONE instance of the phrase "new players" in the devblog, and it doesn't say it's for them. the reference to "new players" is that they've noticed us talking about it. not once have they said this is for new players in that devblog. not a single time.
"0 GÇô 5 million skillpoints = 500,000 unallocated skillpoints added 5 GÇô 50 million skillpoints = 400,000 unallocated skillpoints added 50 GÇô 80 million skillpoints = 200,000 unallocated skillpoints added > 80 million skillpoints = 50,000 unallocated skillpoints added As you can see, this design favors skill transfers for younger characters and makes them very inefficient for older characters. WeGÇÖve designed it this way so that we protect the prestige associated with long commitment to a single character."
Now younger characters does not necessarily always mean new players, but you have to pretty damned obtuse to not see it is at least biased towards benefiting new players, both in their mentioning of them and in the skill point distribution. |
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Posted - 2015.10.16 16:18:01 -
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Orions Lord wrote:I have enough on this pvp character so if I sell 1 mont earned skill point does that equal me an plex. Then eve will be free to play for me.
I am sure CCP would love that loss of income.
I was thinking that myself, I only fly frigs and literally only train skills because I am paying the sub. I might as well just farm out all my new SPs that I am not going to use and plex my account from here on in, do CCP really want to offer more ways for people to stop subbing with real money ? Obviously someone has to pay real money but in my case that real money would go into my pocket and not CCPs.
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Portmanteau
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Posted - 2015.10.16 17:39:13 -
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Fourteen Maken wrote:Pic'n dor wrote:The only point missing is the price of the SP extractor. On the other hand, let's try to put a market price on a SP Pack. My hypothesis : 500k SP in fully in full remap/implant setup is reach within a 7/8 days. We can speculate that skill trainign to extract them gonna be a carreer path. So a packet is 1/4 of a plex time. At current price : this would get into the 300M isk So from 350k SP to 5M, you need 9 packs >(or 9 weeks of training) which would be 2.7B isk That means a new player have to make 50M per week in the 4 or 5 first week of EVE ohhh but wait : Quote:Trial characters may not consume Skill Packets That means in the first 3 weeks of eve, you can't inject !! that means you are able to consume them for around 6 weeks only to get full 500k ! If you are able to get 300M per week (which is not possible for new players whatever game carreer you take), well, you will only take 3 packs : 3 weeks of trial, +1 pack per week + self training per week : at week 7 you reach 5M SP So now is my question : - How is this feature good for new players since market price hypothesis is not compatible with new players - Is it intended to allow wealthy average SP player to fine tune their skills to take over new players ? - How do you expect new players to get to know this feature when they already have 1 billion thing to get used to when you start this game ? (Some vets still don't understand dominion sov and far more are lost with fozziesov) ( i won't speak of rules of engagement in highsec) - Why would a 5M+ SP player would pay for 400k SP which would be 6 days of training when he can save the same amount of money to allow him to play for 7/8 days ? - Why would we give the SuperCaps pilote a career path to make money when the already have reach suffcient wealth to get into the finest ships of the game with the right amount of skills ? We should focus and get the NPE at top level and allow new comers to feel they are part of something bigger. 300mil is the TOP price based on plex values, it cannot go higher, but it can go much lower. The top price would be assuming all characters selling SP were doing nothing else of any value just farming SP... but in most cases this will be used to sell excess SP from indy toons, already maxed toons, station trading toons, PI toons etc and the acceptable price will be much much lower especially at the start when everyone starts liquidating their unwanted skills.
The initial glut of cheap liquidated SPs will get hoovered up by rich players/power blocks/speculators and perhaps a few lucky new guys. Once the gold rush is over and only a severely limited supply of SPs is left, new guys wanting to buy their way in to better game content will pay a very high price.
The NPE will not be helped by this at all, it will in fact make it worse since the vast majority of new guys will be looking enviously at not just the vets, but a few real life rich kids who can afford silly prices. If anything this will make new player retention worse, not better as the barrier of entry will seem even bigger and more unfair.
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Portmanteau
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Posted - 2015.10.17 04:02:08 -
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Morihei Akachi wrote:Looking back through bits of this thread and the ones at /r/eve, I get the impression that thereGÇÖs this huge disconnect between the advocates and the opponents of this idea. IGÇÖll confess that I genuinely donGÇÖt understand what is meant to be so attractive about skipping the training for a battleshipGÇöto take RiseGÇÖs example from his blogGÇöand just buying a character. My sense is that GÇ£characterGÇ¥ means no more than GÇ£chess pieceGÇ¥ in that scenario. The way you swap a pawn out for a queen the moment the opportunity presents itself.
Pawns, of course, don't have histories. They donGÇÖt make mistakes and learn from them, they donGÇÖt have biographies one could tell. TheyGÇÖre just pieces on a board. Weapons to be used against an opponent. If a weapon is not good enough, you swap it out for a better one. IGÇÖm trying to grasp what I find so depressing about this approach, and it has to do with this notion of treating a character merely as a tool that you buy or sell or dismantle for parts / skill points. History, story, narrative within the world we call New Eden becomes completely superfluous at that moment. The only goal is pawning the other guy and total control over how that can be made to happen. DoesnGÇÖt Rise say that that is meant to be GÇ£EveGÇÖs core designGÇ¥: GÇ£player control above all elseGÇ¥? If that is true, there should be no constraints at all. Instant god-mode for all. Surely thatGÇÖs the logic of this position.
But I think Rise is wrong: GÇ£player control above all elseGÇ¥ is not the core design of Eve. I donGÇÖt think anyone (apart from him, apparently) thinks this. The challenge of Eve lies in there not being total control, in there being barriers and hindrances that force you to take a different path from the one you would have taken at first glance if all roads had lain open. I see considerable value in that. It makes Eve into a world rather than just another virtual arena where the instant gratification crowd can live out its monotonous domination fantasies. (Perhaps that was a little uncharitable. But I really donGÇÖt get it.)
Hilmar tells the storyGÇöa little too often, maybeGÇöabout a mining cruiser back in the day. YouGÇÖve probably heard this. HeGÇÖs borrowed it from someone else in order to go mining and it gets blown up. HeGÇÖs unhappy, because his character doesnGÇÖt have the ISK to replace it. And then he thinks, hey, IGÇÖm the CEO of CCP, I could just wave a magic wand and make a cruiser, right? But he doesnGÇÖt. He mines for a whole week to get the cash together to buy a new cruiser on the market. Why? Because short-cutting the process would have entailed the admission that none of it was real.
That was the original vision of New Eden. A world where you canGÇÖt just dev hack or buy your way out of your biography. Because itGÇÖs real.
People are going to disagree with this violently and IGÇÖm fine with that. This is just my take on it, and an attempt to clarify for myself a little better why I find the idea of buying and selling a characterGÇÖs past so disheartening. You sum it up very eloquently. Thankyou. |
Portmanteau
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Posted - 2015.10.17 12:41:42 -
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Asveron Durr wrote:Here is something to consider since this skill idea will not assist younger/newer players.......
First few days or coupleof weeks are fine maybe......
But then space rich guy and his few friends ensure they drop their PLEX hoard(some of it) into aurum. Then purchase the skill extractors.... Then use them on characters they have not been using in a long time....
And only after they have begin snapping up the skill injectors off the market....
Calculations between aurum/plex differences/worth, and equivelancy of RL Money will: Allow for market manipulation and control, effetively making it impossible for new players to purchase these injectors....
Eventually the plex is much higher than it is today and the Injecotrs will be soon enough in the range of 500million to 1 billion ISK themselves also.....
This will make the idea into "Golden Ammo" as the only ones able to use it at that point would be those that spend REAL cash on plex or even aurum...because the ISK market is for all intents an purposes in the control of players....and mostly veterans at that. I could do it....and I am sure the the other EvE moguls out there are thinking of it.....
In effect i predict in a few short months of being implemented as currently stated this "skill idea" becomes a point of RMT and enslavement for new players to established organizations that will setup a way to exploit the "i have to have it now" crowd.
It will fail as valuable change in the game...... an as one person said once already....when a newer player quits he will pass on the knowledge: 1.) you have to spend $15 to subscribe 2.) then buy a plex to cash in to purchase the skill injectors $20 2a.) or buy aurum to get as many skill extractors as possible $20 3.) you will also have to fork over $20 for a plex to train a 2nd character or $15 for a character on another account
Just to be effective......and that is how the "i want it now" crowd will think and behave.... Bad reviews and word of mouth that EvE will cost approx $30 - $60 every month or every other month or so to be competitive will destroy player retention more so than now. It will no longer be seen as the $15 per month subscription game by a greater number of people than many realize. It will be seen as a PAY TO WIN game on par with many others, but more expensive.
And this is not including the fact of those that may buy plex for ISk to get the ships they will be able to fly after injections only to lose them faster because they have no practical experience how to truly play this game.
CCP promised us no "Golden Ammo" ideas, they practically promised us they would not establish a money grab scheme like so many other games do or have done, and some of those have failed os miserably they are either stagnant as well in player numbers or do not exsist anymore.
IF Hilmar and compant really wish to kill off one of Icelands top income makers....then who are we to stop them. But if they are looking to truly see EvE last a full decade at full steam ahead they would be well advised to reconsider this idea. Veteran Players will scheme and break everything you introduce into this game.....becaue that is what we do, this is no different except you will be literally handing over the keys to your finances and ability to grow this time in ways you simply do not unable fathom at this point. Might as well go public and start letting veteran players buy actual CCP stock.
Absolutely this, the perceived barrier of entry will seem even bigger than now. Where newbros thought they had to wait before they will now feel they have to pay pay pay and pay more and still wait quite a bit unless they are minted IRL. The NPE is going to be even worse... it could be dealt with so much better than this proposed mess.
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Portmanteau
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Posted - 2015.10.17 12:47:19 -
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Dave Stark wrote:
according to the devblog it's to make things more granular and give you more control.
More control means more speculation/manipulation, a commodity as desirable as skillpoints (about as desirable a commodity as you are likely to get in this game) will be manipulated to death. New bros are going to be disappointed if they see this as a way to get into the game much quicker, unless they have a lot of real life wedge. |
Portmanteau
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Posted - 2015.10.17 13:15:05 -
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Dave Stark wrote:Portmanteau wrote:Dave Stark wrote:
according to the devblog it's to make things more granular and give you more control.
More control means more speculation/manipulation, a commodity as desirable as skillpoints (about as desirable a commodity as you are likely to get in this game) will be manipulated to death. New bros are going to be disappointed if they see this as a way to get into the game much quicker, unless they have a lot of real life wedge. so, no different to how the character bazzar works now. you know, the thing we'll still also have after this change.
If it's no different than the CB why are they changing it ? More control means more manipulation, your arguments are becoming more obtuse and weak as you singlehandedly try to argue against the entire eve-o forum by yourself, I admire your commitment. :)
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Portmanteau
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Posted - 2015.10.17 13:20:23 -
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http://s23.postimg.org/khrtqt4u3/Learning_Curve_21.jpg |
Portmanteau
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Posted - 2015.10.18 07:48:57 -
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Dave Stark wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Training system has not been bypassed by the character bazaar as someone HAD to train those chars. and they have to with the new system, too. Don ZOLA wrote:As people invested years of time, effort and money to be top1 in total skills, by allowing someone to buy that "title" for himself voids those efforts. i'm sorry but no. making a character before me and keeping an active subscription isn't "investing years of time effort ad money" it's simply knowing about the game before i did. it's like pretending you being 5 years older than me is somehow an achievement. also that's level of "achievement" (******* lol), is still retained. your character's DOB will adequately demonstrate that you started the game before me. you don't need more SP than me to show that. Don ZOLA wrote:Additional thing to take in consideration is the number of ship spinners. There are people who are subscribed and are logging in just because of the habit. They do not play much, mostly just chat and idle and even themselves cannot answer why they do not quit the game. Either because they are just bored with the game or not liking where the game is now or where it is heading/ With changing something important like this you can touch the nerve and get them to say "that`s it, screw you guys im out for real now". this system makes it hilariously easy for people like that to do it for free - they are one of the people who benefit from this system the most. suggesting they're the ones most likely to quit is something i find amusing and absurd at the same time. Don ZOLA wrote:Once again I will mention that something like this will not benefit many. ~1% of total players maybe. Let`s say that it is even 5% which would be highly exaggerated. You are changing fundamentals of your multi million dollars business, which will surely have impact on player base and without even being sure of the gain. Ie you know that you will have short term boom when it is implemented and older players fix their mistakes and after that the run rate will drop quite a lot. And potentially lost players could be much more than that. Not to mention that they will not just quit, hey will be unhappy customers who can spread the -buzz and stop some of potentially new players. And we can see by the shrinking player base that all those people who writes "i will quit because of this" obviously does it. So those are not empty threats.
In the end, one of the key mistakes being done here is not having "behavioralistic" understanding of their own players and their own game. Since I am limited with the number of the characters here I will make another post. 1% of the total players? more characters are traded every year than the daily PCU (25550 char trades per year, vs 24k period average since the middle of this year to now). there's a HUGE market for buying and selling whole characters. do you really think this less obstructed system is going to see a reduction in the capsuleer cattle market? really? what fundamentals? you've always paid ccp to skip the skill grind and buy/sell SP. a lot of your "arguments" seem to be made up "what if" scenarios based on wild fantasies. i must be honest.
Be nice if an ISD could give you two your own thread so we could see what the rest of the playerbase think without wading through pages and pages of your tedious spamming
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Portmanteau
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Posted - 2015.10.18 08:11:17 -
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Dave Stark wrote:Portmanteau wrote:Be nice if an ISD could give you two your own thread so we could see what the rest of the playerbase think without wading through pages and pages of your tedious spamming
at least our posts are discussing the topic rather than whining that we're discussing the topic. don't be "that guy".
Neither of you have said anything new for the last 100 pages or so, but I apologise, don't let me stop you.
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Portmanteau
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Posted - 2015.10.18 12:01:33 -
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Colt Blackhawk wrote: 60% of all whiners didn-¦t even read the full stuff of proposed changes.
100% of this post was fabricated statistics
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Portmanteau
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Posted - 2015.10.18 13:01:05 -
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Cearain wrote:
Every year the game has existed the new player has had to compete at a larger and larger skill point disadvantage. It is only right that ccp would give new players more options to deal with this disadvantage.
This I agree with 100%, however paying more RL cash on top of a subscription to get enough SPs to compete is going to leave a nasty taste for a lot of new guys, that's how many will perceive this. Far better to remove learning implants and max attributes and scale down training time modifiers on core skills to compensate the ever growing distance towards end game stuffs. If CCP want to bring new guys into the game quicker they'd do this, if they just want a desperate cash grab, they skim brokerage fees for our unwanted SPs... |
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Posted - 2015.10.18 13:18:08 -
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Dave Stark wrote:Portmanteau wrote:This I agree with 100%, however paying more RL cash on top of a subscription to get enough SPs to compete is going to leave a nasty taste for a lot of new guys, that's how many will perceive this. they aren't paying more RL cash, though. they can either pay for 10 months SP now, or pay for 10 months sp one month at a time and accumulate it over 10 months. the total paid is the same, as is the amount of SP. scratch that, the "extra" you pay will be the cost of extractors. which remains to be seen...
More *upfront* and my point is that will be the PERCEPTION for many ... maybe not technically accurate when logically dissected but that doesn't really matter does it ? If new players perceive that CCP is reaming them for RL cash right at the start of their EvE experience they will be less likely to stick around and some may not subscribe at all. The very fact that some posters in this thread are citing the skill gap/veteran advantage demonstrates that the perception of needing more skillpoints exists and so the perception that a new player will need to pay for a sub and X amount of Skillpoints will be held by many and it won't be popular, it will seem like CCP fleecing new players.
I am all for buffing newbros, give them more starting SPs, buff cerebral accelerators, make training times shorter, remove learning implants and fix the attributes at maximum level... whatever CCP can do to speed up entry to the game without asking new guys to pay more than the sub. It ought to get more people to subscribe.
Seems to me like a choice between longer term new player recruitment tactics vs. a short term cynical cash grab. |
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Portmanteau
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Posted - 2015.10.18 13:29:52 -
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Dave Stark wrote:Jared Khanar wrote:how nice they are to give ccp the money for maybe a year as soon as they arrive ... money ccp would have to wait soooo long until they get their hands on it (what a shame, isn-¦t it?). erm. 12 month subscriptions are already a thing.
I'm guessing they are not popular with first time players though, neither will subscription plus X amount Skillpoints.
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Posted - 2015.10.18 13:53:25 -
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Dave Stark wrote:Daniela Doran wrote:Delegate wrote:Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Delegate wrote:Actually it does change a lot in new player experience. After this, a player starting the game will be unable to compete not only with older players but also with those of his peers that bought SP. So he will receive a very clear message: first pay for the sub, then grid/pay for the ISK and finally pay for the progress (or be left behind). There is a major difference from character bazaar here. A player with say 2-4m SP isn't going to engage in activities targeted by a 30m SP char bough off the bazaar. But he will meet players of similar age that performs better than him, because, for example, they bought 1.2m SP in core skills. After this change retention in new subs will drop. It could change new players' perception, which unfortunately is not good. For a moment of purely academic fun, I tried to pinpoint the difference between new player experience and how new player "perceive" the game. Academic, because we both know that the decision to keep playing comes from how you perceive the game. Ah this is good. Dave can you get this? If not, reread it over and over again until you do. Then apologize for posting rubbish for the past 155+ pages in this thread. how new players perceive the game is a complete irrelevance. it has nothing to do with the discussion. we're talking about buying and selling SP not the NPE.
It is totally relevant, if this goes live it will affect the NPE to deny that is ridiculous. How it will be perceived is open to debate, but I think a fair case can be made that many will see buying skillpoints as necessary.
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Portmanteau
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Posted - 2015.10.18 13:59:35 -
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Dave Stark wrote:Portmanteau wrote:It is totally relevant, if this goes live it will affect the NPE to deny that is ridiculous. How it will be perceived is open to debate, but I think a fair case can be made that many will see buying skillpoints as necessary.
the idea isn't anything new. buying and selling sp has already existed. if people are turned off buy it they've already been turned off. likewise if they're a fan of the idea.
The quantity is what's new, as you like saying so often, it's in the dev blog, the granular nature of these skill packets will make it more normal for new guys to buy them where it would be less usual to buy an entire character. This comes with a downside as new guys who can't afford a sub and skill packets will see their immediate peers (as someone else already pointed out) advancing more quickly than them. Your argument is obtuse and fails to recognise the importance of how new players perceive things.
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Portmanteau
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Posted - 2015.10.18 14:03:21 -
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Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Portmanteau wrote:It is totally relevant, if this goes live it will affect the NPE to deny that is ridiculous. How it will be perceived is open to debate, but I think a fair case can be made that many will see buying skillpoints as necessary. Necessary for what? Flying after 1 day ships that everybody else in 12 years of EVE flew after 6 months? How can that be necessary, as opposed to optional, if countless players in EVE history survived perfectly and had fun without this new SP-trading thing?
Perception vs reality, surely you can't deny that despite it not being true, many new player and and plenty of older player in this very thread percieve a need for skillpoints. The fact it's not necessarily true doesn't matter, the fact it is a common perception is important and relevant to how this change will be received. Not everyone comes into this game fully versed on the nuances of EvE life. Some never learn it.
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Portmanteau
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Posted - 2015.10.18 14:11:24 -
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Dave Stark wrote:Portmanteau wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Portmanteau wrote:It is totally relevant, if this goes live it will affect the NPE to deny that is ridiculous. How it will be perceived is open to debate, but I think a fair case can be made that many will see buying skillpoints as necessary.
the idea isn't anything new. buying and selling sp has already existed. if people are turned off buy it they've already been turned off. likewise if they're a fan of the idea. The quantity is what's new, as you like saying so often, it's in the dev blog, the granular nature of these skill packets will make it more normal for new guys to buy them where it would be less usual to buy an entire character. This comes with a downside as new guys who can't afford a sub and skill packets will see their immediate peers (as someone else already pointed out) advancing more quickly than them. Your argument is obtuse and fails to recognise the importance of how new players perceive things. he's going to see some one buy SP packets, or a new character. if some one is going to pay to advance, they're going to pay to advance. pretending that'll only be the case because we're now selling SP a different way is laughable. if he can't afford to pay to advance and his peers can, he will be left behind regardless of whether or not this system is added to the game. i don't fail to recognise the importance, you fail to recognise it already exists and isn't new.
You fail to recognise how items of smaller value sell more frequently and to a greater spectrum of incomes than items of larger value. If it's there's literally zero difference between the character bazaar and skill packets then one has to ask why are CCP wasting all this effort in changing it ? |
Portmanteau
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Posted - 2015.10.18 14:19:08 -
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Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Portmanteau wrote:Perception vs reality, surely you can't deny that despite it not being true, many new player and plenty of older player in this very thread perceive a need for skillpoints. The only possible outcome of a mechanic that converts SP to ISK and viceversa, is the devaluation of people's perception of SP. As long as SP was non-marketable and non-acquirable except by waiting days, weeks, months, it's value was 'HUGE'. Now it will be 0.8 ISK per SP, or less. No matter what, putting a price on something that was price-less, devalues it. People will start thinking: do I need 2 mil SP this month, or should I buy and fit a faction battleship instead? You really can't imagine that breaking a hugely desirable commodity such as skillpoints into semi affordable chunks will make them seem like a must have for new guys ?
You know cocaine was never a massive issue in poor neighborhoods until it was re-marketed as cheaper crack rock
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Posted - 2015.10.18 14:23:24 -
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Dave Stark wrote:Interfly Ghormenheist wrote:Maybe you could define and describe the actual system you are referring to? i just did. Portmanteau wrote:If it's there's literally zero difference between the character bazaar and skill packets then one has to ask why are CCP wasting all this effort in changing it ? this question has been answered so many times it's getting tragic now. the answer is even in the devblog. go and read it.
Cobblers, you are being incredibly obtuse here, the answer is indeed in the devblog and Rise goes to great lengths explaining the "improvements" that will be made on the character bazaar model.... those are the differences, you are just flailing about now trying to deny the obvious differences that everyone (including the developers) have spelled out.
Maybe you need a break, you've been at this thread for quite a while now.
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Posted - 2015.10.18 14:25:21 -
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Dave please explain to me how I can buy SPs off the character Bazaar and inject them into this character. |
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Posted - 2015.10.18 14:30:07 -
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Dave Stark wrote:Portmanteau wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Interfly Ghormenheist wrote:Maybe you could define and describe the actual system you are referring to? i just did. Portmanteau wrote:If it's there's literally zero difference between the character bazaar and skill packets then one has to ask why are CCP wasting all this effort in changing it ? this question has been answered so many times it's getting tragic now. the answer is even in the devblog. go and read it. Cobblers, you are being incredibly obtuse here, the answer is indeed in the devblog and Rise goes to great lengths explaining the "improvements" that will be made on the character bazaar model.... those are the differences, you are just flailing about now trying to deny the obvious differences that everyone (including the developers) have spelled out. Maybe you need a break, you've been at this thread for quite a while now. how am i being obtuse? you asked why they're doing it, we have gone through it many times, and each time has involved quoting the devblog since that's where the answer is.
Can you sell me 500k sps from Dave Stark for me to inject into Portmanteau please ? Apparently that facility already exists. Thanking you in advance.
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Posted - 2015.10.18 14:33:05 -
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Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Portmanteau wrote:You really can't imagine that breaking a hugely desirable commodity such as skillpoints into semi affordable chunks will make them seem like a must have for new guys ? You know cocaine was never a massive issue in poor neighborhoods until it was re-marketed as cheaper crack rock I could be wrong, but what I'm imagening right now is an EVE where buyable SP will actually make people obsess much less over SP... If you're a smoke addict, you get worried if you don't have a spare pack around the house, even though you probably won't need all those cigarettes before you'll have a chance to buy more. Oddly enough I think both POVs will occur. I agree that SPs as a commodity will seems less important to some, to me in fact. But also more SPs within easier reach of newer guys will have the opposite effect, like dangling a pipe in front of a crack ho. |
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Posted - 2015.10.18 14:34:59 -
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Dave Stark wrote:Portmanteau wrote:[Can you sell me 500k sps from Dave Stark for me to inject into Portmanteau please ? Apparently that facility already exists. Thanking you in advance.
yes. how much are you willing to pay?
I think I'm done here.
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Posted - 2015.10.18 17:10:32 -
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Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Portmanteau wrote:
Oddly enough I think both POVs will occur. I agree that SPs as a commodity will seems less important to some, to me in fact. But also more SPs within easier reach of newer guys will have the opposite effect, like dangling a pipe in front of a crack ho.
Indeed! But since they will be purchasable ONLY WITH ISK, this could also just motivate them to make ISK. True, ISK can be purchased with PLEX, but that's nothing new.
https://youtu.be/I2Y5nL0P7Yc?t=14s |
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Posted - 2015.10.18 18:09:29 -
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Divine Entervention wrote:So I read an article on the internet and it said something along the lines of, anyone who is against this change is really just projecting their emotional insecurities and are letting their irrationalities manifest themselves because they as people have zero self-control.
But it's OK, because we, the deciders, understand you're incapable of logical thought so we know to just ignore the things you say and write your name down on The List.
Great change CCP, way to take the initiative in saving EvE.
What an arrogant pile of horseshit, of course anyone who doesn't subscribe to your POV must have something wrong with them. |
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Posted - 2015.10.18 18:11:56 -
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Tristan Agion wrote: Thanks. Indeed, I think it is highly likely that PLEX prices will drop because of this.
LMFAO you cannot possibly predict this, unless you can search your crystal ball and tell us how many people will pay for SPs with cash and how many will pay with isk.
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Posted - 2015.10.18 18:12:53 -
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Dave Stark wrote:Portmanteau wrote:Divine Entervention wrote:So I read an article on the internet and it said something along the lines of, anyone who is against this change is really just projecting their emotional insecurities and are letting their irrationalities manifest themselves because they as people have zero self-control.
But it's OK, because we, the deciders, understand you're incapable of logical thought so we know to just ignore the things you say and write your name down on The List.
Great change CCP, way to take the initiative in saving EvE. What an arrogant pile of horseshit, of course anyone who doesn't subscribe to your POV must have something wrong with them. actually, if you don't agree with them it makes you a CCP employee ;)
equally as ridiculous TBF
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Posted - 2015.10.18 18:27:26 -
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Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Portmanteau wrote:Tristan Agion wrote: Thanks. Indeed, I think it is highly likely that PLEX prices will drop because of this.
LMFAO you cannot possibly predict this, unless you can search your crystal ball and tell us how many people will pay for SPs with cash and how many will pay with isk. Actually, that's not an option. Skill packets will be sold by players, for ISK. If you don't have enough ISK, you'll need to buy and sell a PLEX. It's the extractors that cost AUR. So you'd spend AUR (thus cash) only to reallocate your SP or trade among your alts. If you want MOAR SP, you need to give ISK to a fellow player.
I think you may have missed my point there Gully, SPs bought with isk, whether that isk comes from PVE or buying plex with RL cash will affect plex price in different ways and there's no reliable way to predict which outcome will be more popular.
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Posted - 2015.10.18 22:56:29 -
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Mr Epeen wrote:
As I have said before, the people who are inclined to purchase characters for whatever reason will possibly take advantage of SP packs while those that don't currently buy characters are unlikely to suddenly change their minds about spending more money on top of the subscription just because there is another SP buying option available.
Nonsense, there is far more incentive to buy a 500k skillpack than a 10, 20, 30 million sp character. What you are saying is as if people who cannot afford a holiday home wouldn't be interested in a 2 week holiday in the same resort.
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Posted - 2015.10.18 23:20:04 -
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Divine Entervention wrote:M must stand for manipulative cuz we all know you care for no one but yourself and image.
Where do you get off talking about people the way you do simply because they do not share your viewpoint ? It renders everything you say on the subject useless since it all just comes off as a personal attack, an emotional ad hominem rather than reason.
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Posted - 2015.10.18 23:55:49 -
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Mr Epeen wrote:Don ZOLA wrote:Mr Epeen wrote:TinkerHell wrote: I cant say i have ever seen any character in the Bazaar max skilled for every titan and super,
Need to actually look if you want to find something. You think you could SP pack that character for less than the 200+ billion it sold for? I'll wait for you to do the math and get back to me. Don't forget to show your work. Mr Epeen It is not maxed as he said. You fail. Again :shocker: :D LOL saw that coming. And I new it would be you. It's nice to have someone pick up the slack from Jenn. His stalking has been somewhat lackluster lately. Mr Epeen Hardly stalking when someone points out your bombastic put down is factually incorrect |
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Posted - 2015.10.19 04:03:33 -
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Redneck Robot wrote:This seems like a great idea !
Are you 5-10 year vets really scared of me spending $100 and getting 6 months closer to you in skills?
Personally, no. For me the issue is that not all new guys can just drop $100 upfront on a game they've played for 2 weeks, but when some of them see you and others like you do it, they will feel left behind because they didn't and that's not a perception that's healthy for new player retention.
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Posted - 2015.10.30 18:19:33 -
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YouAreMyBounty Sarn wrote:My friend just text me about this. I'm livid!
You are going to offer the low skilled players a chance to boost their skill points significantly. I've had to train my account for just over 2 years to get 40 million skill points. A task that has cost me around -ú240 to do. Now you are saying to the beginners that they can grind a tonne of ISK on an alt account & use it to just BUY their skill points? Why would you punish me like that? If you go through with this, I would hope that you offer me to sell my points back to Eve Online for real life money at a rate of -ú10 a month (like you charge me), then I will just grind the ISK in game & buy all my skill points using ISK instead of paying the -ú240 I've spet on my account. I doubt you will offer me this chance, so I'm well annoyed. Let me know ASAP on if this will be in the patch because I won't be paying for a subscription anymore. I'll simply just grind the ISK and buy my skill points.
Any what about PVP fights now? Where possible I've tried to guess my opponents skill points by looking at their DOB. I would no longer be able to do that anymore?
Big corps who have trillions could just buy a 1day old toon and buy it 50 mill SP. So I could lose to a 1day old toon. What a joke man. Seriously.
Final thoughts: What a joke! Not happy!
See while I think selling SPs is a bad idea, the reasons you gave just play into the hands of the "pro selling SPs" camp because they sound like self entitled vet whine.
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Posted - 2015.10.30 18:24:55 -
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Dror wrote: On that note, it'd be interesting to watch a T1 ammo twink vs. a newbie that has a decent clue how to play (and has better skills obviously). I'd bet on the newbie for every class of ship probably.
LMFAO if you had said twink vs hisec bear I might have actually siht myself laughing |
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Posted - 2015.11.01 05:59:25 -
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Tristan Agion wrote: SP is achieved in EVE by waiting while being subscribed to the game. There is precisely and exactly zero achievement attached to SP in EVE
You understand enough to notice this, but not enough to understand why this is important, maybe when you've been here a little longer you will get it.
Just as a disclaimer, I think new guys should get more SP or have requirements to access ships/mods lowered, I just think selling SPs is about as dumb a way to do it as possible.
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Posted - 2015.11.05 13:00:38 -
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Doddy wrote: Similarly crapping on idea that will be of benefit to hundreds or thousands of players who want to clean up training mistakes, catch up with older players, make up for times they couldn't afford the sub or try new features earlier than training would allow is really dumb if you are basing it on the imagined possibility one crazy person might spend $300k on a 450 mil sp char (your 27 years trained character).
About as dumb as imagining everybody who wants to do any of the things you listed will be able to afford the time or money to do so, especially new players.
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Posted - 2015.11.05 13:07:58 -
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Doddy wrote: I was the one worrying about disenfranchising. And how can not being able to afford something within the game be disenfranchising someone? You think we should all have unlimited isk?
No, players should not have unlimited isk, but disenfranchising a large amount of new players because they can't afford the real life cash they will need to keep up with their rich IRL peers (since they will not be experienced enough to make the isk in game) will create greater perception of a "skillpoint barrier" and will potentially harm retention, even new account numbers.
Making SPs more available to a few new guys who can afford it comes at the cost of pissing off the likely larger number of new player who can't.
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Posted - 2015.11.05 13:37:06 -
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General Lootit wrote:Portmanteau wrote:Doddy wrote: I was the one worrying about disenfranchising. And how can not being able to afford something within the game be disenfranchising someone? You think we should all have unlimited isk?
No, players should not have unlimited isk, but disenfranchising a large amount of new players because they can't afford the real life cash they will need to keep up with their rich IRL peers (since they will not be experienced enough to make the isk in game) will create greater perception of a "skillpoint barrier" and will potentially harm retention, even new account numbers. Making SPs more available to a few new guys who can afford it comes at the cost of pissing off the likely larger number of new player who can't. Mr. Date of Birth: 2007-10-31 you know so much about problems of newbies.
Is this post a joke ?
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Posted - 2015.11.05 18:38:59 -
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Doddy wrote:Portmanteau wrote:
No, players should not have unlimited isk, but disenfranchising a large amount of new players because they can't afford the real life cash they will need to keep up with their rich IRL peers (since they will not be experienced enough to make the isk in game) will create greater perception of a "skillpoint barrier" and will potentially harm retention, even new account numbers.
Making SPs more available to a few new guys who can afford it comes at the cost of pissing off the likely larger number of new player who can't.
How is that remotely a legitimate argument? Implants already create exactly this, it is in game already and has been for years, same goes with skill book purchases. People can already speed thier skill progression through Rl cash, has been that way ever since Plex were introduced.
Implants do not create this at all. Rich IRL players can ofc drop a plex and buy a full set of +5s if they so desire, but for those that cannot afford to do this a number of options still remain. Learning implants come in +1 to +5 flavours and while the +5s retail at around 100mil the +4s retail at around 20 mil, 1/5th of the price while giving 4/5ths of the effect. Player can also line up a skill queue using 2 attributes (if they are min maxing properly for remaps they will do this anyway) so they can further cut the cost of a full set of implants to a set of 2. For around 40mil they can achieve nearly the same effect as a full set of +5 implants worth over 500 mil and the same can be done with +3 for less than 20 mil.
TSP will offer none of these scaling options, there will be no 4/5 sized packets for 1/5 the price, no way to min max them and they will cost in the hundreds of millions. You simply cannot make a reasonable comparison of the two.
Quote:Your argument is basically that aspiration is a terrible thing that somehow makes people stop trying, pretty much the opposite of what most of human existence proves. For some reason the possibility of speeding your skill progression by playing the game will put people off playing the game? Wtf nonsense is that?
No it isn't, did you even read what I wrote ? My argument is that everyone aspires in EvE and it's exactly this aspiration which will lead to player dissatisfaction when it is unfulfilled for reasons as crappy as not having enough money IRL.
Quote:
[quote]Do I think there should be limits to prevent the few super rich (whether rl or in game) swallowing up all the excess sp? definately. Put a limit on how many TSP a character can add in a month (i would say 10 but maybe less would work), put a hardcap on skills (i woud put it at the maximum possible sp anyone playing from day 1 could have). Nobody who wants the system to just help give their friends a start, respec thier chars or transfer sp from a main to an alt would have a problem with any of those. Older players could only at most speed thier progression by around 30%, no matter how rich they are. There would be restricted demand so prices would remain low and find an equilibrium (if there is no limit you would see everybody dump their unwanted sp day 1 and prices would rise constantly after that)
A far better way for CCP to help new players (if that's actually even one of their real reasons for doing this) would be to leave older player to live with their decisions and concentrate on giving SP boosts to new player in other ways that cost nothing and can be obtained by anyone regardless of real life financial concern.
*Attributes can be done away with finally and all set to max.
*New players can be given several million SP at the start instead of a few thousand (cue tears from "I did it the hard way" vets - **** them)
*skill training times can be adjusted to compensate the difference in amount of skill that were there in 2003 and what we have now
*core skills can be looked at so that certain modules that require lvl5 only need lvl4 enabling faster entry into the wider game
There's likely more ways of reducing the barrier of entry into the "fun" parts of the game that don't require CCP gouging more R/L cash from players they hope to introduce to the game and encourage to stay, yet I suspect the fact they are going with selling SPs for cash demonstrates this is not about helping new players at all but rinsing more money out of people. |
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Posted - 2015.11.05 20:21:17 -
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Ima Wreckyou wrote:Just imagine how this feature will look to a new player who is not familiar with EVE.
It will lock a bit similar to what typical free2play titles are offering. Slow SP progress and you can accumulate currency ingame for which you then can buy ships or invest them in more SP. It will appear as if the slow accumulation of SP is on purpose so you actually HAVE to spend real money to get to your Battleship in an acceptable time, which is obviously the goal for every player poisoned with the expectation of a linear progression from other MMOs.
In other words it will appear as a seriously overpriced free2play paywall in a game that is NOT free2play!
They will just shake their heads about the greed of the developer without ever understanding the background of the system and simply quit.
This is my serious concern and I think this has to be addressed.
Exactly ...(get ready for replies of but it's not F2P completely missing the point that for new players and potential future customers, perception trumps reality)
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Posted - 2015.11.05 20:30:28 -
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Doddy wrote:Portmanteau wrote: many quotes. yay, not getting to train what they want and still be behind, plus have to worry about being podded, great. Assuming they want to retain control over thier own skill queue why is it such a jump from a player spending 100 mil on a set of +4s to spending 150, 200 or whatever on a tsp? At least the TSP will not promote risk aversion like the implants do. if CCP turned around and said they were going to do it in 100k sp chunks would your opposition suddenly disappear because they would be more affordable? I am going to guess not. Why would it lead to dissatisfaction? You haven't explained why any normal person would feel this way. Are people going to go, "oh no, if I earn another 50 mil isk i will be able to fly that battleship earlier, how terrible i must quit"? How is that less aspirational than "oh well if i don't bother logging on my skill is still training"? I really don't get what you think the psychology of gamers is. Where does not having rl money come into it where it doesn't already in every other aspect in eve? It is no different from having to save up for that faction BB they are desperate to fly, you think everyone who can't just drop a plex to get what they want quit the game? Only you are saying they are selling sp with cash. Sp will be sold for cash no more than every other thing in the game that can be sold for isk. What is being sold for cash is the mechanism, and that will be bought by people looking to make isk, not people looking to buy sp. It is exactly the same as plex, the only difference it is not fixed in time. If I bought a tsp with cash right now it would have way less effect than if i had used a plex to sub that account 2 months ago. It will also have less affect than the plex I will apply on that account next month, assuming i remember to set a skill queue. Is it really so important that people should be rewarded for paying ccp on a monthly basis rather than more intermittently? I don't have an issue with giving new players more sp or adjusting the requirements for skills etc, but why screw over older players? Skills have constant diminishing returns, giving the older players the same sp would do no harm at all. For most ships meaningful skill use is only around 30mil sp. But you are so fixated on total sp numbers you probably don't get that.
Simple, have learning implants act like cerebral accelarators and remain after podding, all other implants remain the same, now you have accelerated learning that's scales downwards in an affordable way which TSPs do not and so all income brackets should be able to afford some form of them. It's not 100% perfect but it offers a lot more options than the 2 options of spend a ton of isk(plex) or miss out completely.
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Posted - 2015.11.05 20:36:47 -
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Doddy wrote:Portmanteau wrote:Ima Wreckyou wrote:Just imagine how this feature will look to a new player who is not familiar with EVE.
It will lock a bit similar to what typical free2play titles are offering. Slow SP progress and you can accumulate currency ingame for which you then can buy ships or invest them in more SP. It will appear as if the slow accumulation of SP is on purpose so you actually HAVE to spend real money to get to your Battleship in an acceptable time, which is obviously the goal for every player poisoned with the expectation of a linear progression from other MMOs.
In other words it will appear as a seriously overpriced free2play paywall in a game that is NOT free2play!
They will just shake their heads about the greed of the developer without ever understanding the background of the system and simply quit.
This is my serious concern and I think this has to be addressed. Exactly ...(get ready for replies of but it's not F2P completely missing the point that for new players and potential future customers, perception trumps reality) So you are saying we shouldn't do it because it exposes the reality? We should just keep being dishonest about eves ptw nature in the hope of tricking in more new players? i mean i guess you are right but I not sure it is very moral ....
Good grief have you literally any idea why new/potential customer's perceptions are important when marketing your product... handy hint : there won't always be an EvEO poster around to correct potential customer's misconceptions about EvE when they are considering buying their first account. What they think about EvE often matters more than the subtle explanation of the reality. |
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Posted - 2015.11.05 23:02:38 -
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Doddy wrote:Levi Belvar wrote:Doddy wrote:Stalking Mantis wrote:"The investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time. "CCP Hellmar 2011-10-05 Source You do understand that skilling a character is an investment of money while people buying sp with isk are investing time right? The reason he's giving for all his arguments is based around how hes twisted this statement, This is the fundamental issue. All the people against TSPs are basically supporting the pay to win Eve has had since it started, mainly because they already paid thier money and don't want other people to have the opportunity to catch up.
Cobblers. I solo pvp in t1 frigates with no links and very cheap implants. A character with a few months proper training could be on an even playing field with me and could have an advantage over me if they dropped cash on a links char. Stop making convenient and untrue generalizations about the motivations of those who disagree with you. |
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Posted - 2015.11.06 00:28:17 -
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Doddy wrote:
You don't have to intend it for it to be true. Maybe you have the best intentions in the world. Doesn't alter the facts. Even if you are not supporting it for you you are supporting it for someone.
Give it a rest pal. Painting everyone who disagrees with your opinion as some sort of 'p2w collaborator' is cheap and can just as cheaply turned around to suit the opposite argument. Everyone who wants tsps just wants to exploit it for their own gain and doesn't care about new players at all. These banal kind of arguments are a waste of everybody's time.
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Posted - 2015.11.06 01:43:57 -
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General Lootit wrote:Portmanteau wrote:Doddy wrote:
You don't have to intend it for it to be true. Maybe you have the best intentions in the world. Doesn't alter the facts. Even if you are not supporting it for you you are supporting it for someone.
Give it a rest pal. Painting everyone who disagrees with your opinion as some sort of 'p2w collaborator' is cheap and can just as cheaply turned around to suit the opposite argument. Everyone who wants tsps just wants to exploit it for their own gain and doesn't care about new players at all. These banal kind of arguments are a waste of everybody's time. OK. What is your personal reason against this idea? How it will hurt you?
It won't.
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Posted - 2015.11.09 14:54:33 -
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Doddy wrote: A character is just a container of sp,
Bullshit |
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Posted - 2015.11.11 15:09:51 -
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YouAreMyBounty Sarn wrote:I would also like to know how a post with over 5500 comments on hasn't been updated by the Devs. We want to communicate with you and work with you!! Why is nobody from CCP appearing to care about these responses?
Because this is only *pretending* to be a feedback thread, this change will happen whether we like it or not, whether it's a good idea or not because *$-ú reasons $-ú*.
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Posted - 2015.11.12 15:48:14 -
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Danmal wrote: The reason I bring this up is that I think suggesting that CCP are greedy moneygrabbers is mistaken. I believe it to be more about finding a better survival strategy, really.
Fair point, but let's consider that gaining more subs while not pissing off existing players enough to quit is probably better than implementing a system that will extract more money players but be poor for new player retention and **** many vets off causing them to consider quitting.
Improvements to the game that bring in new players and make existing players happy but cost nothing more than the sub fee will make more money than fleecing the last few dollars/euros/pounds/yen out of an ever decreasing playerbase.
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Posted - 2015.11.12 21:29:21 -
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Levi Belvar wrote:if thats 1 plex for the extractor to theyre going to be silly money
This whole thread will seem pretty redundant if that is the case, almost nobody with use them, massive CCP trollage |
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Posted - 2015.11.14 15:06:41 -
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Iowa Banshee wrote:With 4 CSM's coming forward to say they don't like this 90% of posters saying its a flawed or bad idea 1st 20ish pages - I got bored checking Quote:Now we will see if CCP actually listens to the players
This is why they let the thread go on so long with no reply, so they can ignore the first pages where most people said no thanks, and point to the last pages where a few posters (from both sides) posted a buttload and use that as evidence of some sort of approval.
BOLLOCKS.
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